Hunter Mobley: 1:47

when we talk about the Enneagram, it's like nobody needs to go get anything that they don't have. It's really a journey of returning to something that is fundamentally truer. the Enneagram tells us, just like contemplative spirituality tells us, it tells us that the truer, deeper thing, the immortal diamond, the virtue all, it was always there in you. It just got covered and protected by these layers. And so our, our lifetime of work is really about. Doing things and adopting mentalities and postures that allow the layers to fall away so that the truer things can actually reemerge, not things that are outside of ourselves, things that are actually fundamentally inside that we're always there.

2:35

Hello and welcome to Enneagram in Real Life, the podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host, Stephanie Barron Hall, and on today's episode I have a guest that you might have heard on many other Enneagram podcasts. I am joined today by Hunter Mobley, who has a brand new book coming out and has been featured on various Enneagram podcasts, especially those hosted by Suzanne Stabile. So if you're into Suzanne Stabiles work, then I'm sure that you've heard of Hunter before. Hunter Mobley is a gifted Enneagram teacher, author, attorney, and former pastor who brings deep insight and compassion to his work. He apprenticed under renowned Enneagram teacher, Suzanne Stabile, and now teaches alongside her and her husband, Joe Stabile at their teaching center in Dallas, Texas. Based in Nashville, Tennessee, hunter combines his diverse professional experience with a heartfelt approach to spiritual growth. In 2020, hunter authored 40 Days on being a two part of the Enneagram Daily Reflection series offering heartfelt insights for those with a type two personality. His upcoming book, letting Go, finding You Will Explore the Enneagrams Transformative Power. In helping individuals release limiting patterns and embrace their true essence. Hunter has taught Enneagram retreats, workshops, and events in diverse settings, including Amy Grant's Alaskan Cruise. That one sounds interesting. Belmont University, Vanderbilt University, denominational headquarters, and churches and retreat centers nationwide and he talks about the Enneagram with such compassion and expertise. So we were able to explore some different concepts that he brought up in his book. Um, especially we talked about the, this concept of virtue and vice and how For Hunter, he really emphasizes making space for the virtue rather than working on the vice or the passion. and I really liked that approach because it feels very compassionate and positive. So I asked him to share a little bit about that. And then we also talked about contemplative practices in general, kind of broad strokes. And then he shared a practice for everyone who is. Not into contemplative work of any sort, and where they can get started. So I really appreciated his perspective, and I'm so grateful that Hunter joined me for this episode. If you'd like to learn more, you can always find his info in this show notes, but you can also find him on Instagram at Enneagram Hunter. online@enneagramhunter.com and his new book, which I have, and I have to say I've really been enjoying, is out now and it's called Letting Go, finding You Uncover Your Truest Self through the Enneagram and Contemplation. So make sure to check out that book wherever books are sold. And I do wanna mention just because, you know, he is a former pastor, but I found the book to be really approachable, uh, for various walks of life and spirituality backgrounds. So if that interests you at all, I think this would be an enlightening read. So I hope you enjoy. And without further ado, here's my conversation with Hunter Mobley.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 5:42

Well, hunter, welcome to the podcast.

Hunter Mobley: 5:44

Thank you, Stephanie. I'm so glad to be with you.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 5:47

Yeah. I'm excited to chat with you today about your new book, which is called Letting Go Finding You. but before we get into any of that, I'd love to start with an introduction, your background a little bit, and how you found the Enneagram. I.

Hunter Mobley: 5:59

Yeah, so thank you. I'm an Enneagram two, by the way. That's my Enneagram number that we'll talk about some. But I'm based out of Nashville, Tennessee. Grew up in Nashville, live here now. And, um. My background has been sort of eclectic in terms of vocation, but I've had the opportunity, I. Opportunity to be an attorney, to be a pastor of a church. Um, and now I get to travel the country and teach and speak about the Enneagram, write about the Enneagram. And then when I'm not doing that, um, I, I do some culture work at a trust company in Nashville. So kind of. Have had some eclectic opportunities. It, it all sort of comes back to I'm a people person and, um, I love working with people. I love making relationship and, uh, shepherding teams and thinking about culture. You know, my journey to the Enneagram is sort of perfect for my number because the Enneagram for me began in a friendship. Um, I. Had never heard the word before. I was familiar, probably like a lot of us, with some of the other personality tools in the orbit. And I'd, I'd used some of them and enjoyed some of them, Myers-Brigg and StrengthFinder, and, you know, I'd figured out I was a golden retriever. All the ones that we, that we use and they're all, they're all useful, but. Never heard about the Enneagram, and I was in Boca Grande, Florida at a dinner party at a retreat the final night of a retreat with some friends around the table, and I just happened to be seated at a table next to Suzanne and Joe Bil. We didn't know each other. I didn't know who they were. They didn't know who I was. We didn't really. Pick to have those be our seats. And so Suzanne and I are sitting next to each other. Turns out we're both Enneagram twos. You know, I find out what that means later. And so as Enneagram twos, we just kind of fell into our natural pattern of making a friend, you know, who are you? Who are you? Well, where do you live? Where do you live? What do you do with your, and so that dinner, because of Suzanne's work with the Enneagram, um, I heard that word for the first time. And it just so happened that she was gonna be in Nashville two weeks later. Um, she was coming to Nashville to speak to a church staff, um, just to do kind of a team building event with them. And so she said, well, I'm gonna be in Nashville in two weeks. And I said, where are you gonna be? And she told me the church name. And I said, well, that pastor is one of my best friends. I'm gonna text him right now and just see if I can sit. In the back of the room and, you know, kind of interope on their church staff retreat day. And he said yes. And, um, I went and, and that was where I was first introduced to the nine numbers, but it really, a friendship began with Suzanne that evening. And, um, we just enjoyed one another and connected. And it was that friendship that ultimately led to me really looking deeper into this tool. And so, uh, little. Did I know where it would take me and that I would be doing work alongside of her and, and spending so much time traveling and speaking about the tool. But it kind of is just now makes all kind of sense in the world to me and, and makes me sort of laugh that, uh, it came out of a friendship and uh, that's how so many things come for me is in Enneagram two.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 9:24

Yes, for sure. Now, at that first dinner meeting, did you guys talk about the Enneagram? Was Suzanne like, oh, you're a two,

Hunter Mobley: 9:32

No, no, we really, we didn't talk about it except just to her to give me the. 32nd version of what it is, as she was kind of telling me about her work and what she does and, uh, just as we were meeting each other and talk, you know, I was a pastor at the time and she was a speaker, so, um, she told me kind of what the system was from a high level view, but I didn't know anything about the numbers. Certainly didn't identify my number at that dinner. So it really just began very, very organically and very slowly out of that relationship.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 10:05

Yeah, I'm sure you get this question all the time. Um, but I get it a lot, which is if you sat down and. To somebody at a dinner party, would you, you know, be able to pinpoint their number? And, you know, first of all, I don't know how you respond to that, but I'm like, well, I'm not really there to do that. So, like, I'm not thinking about that unless they're like an 8, 8, 8 or like a real big seven. You know, I'm not, I'm not sitting there thinking about that.

Hunter Mobley: 10:30

Absolutely. You know, I, I'm, I so resonate with that, Stephanie. People do ask me that a lot, you know, well, because this is something that you do, do you, you know, everybody that you meet, is it just so clear to you? And the honest truth is, and I I imagine you'll probably resonate with this as well, the, the deeper you go into this type of work, um, the deeper you go on the Enneagram, the more you know about it, the less. Likely. I would ever feel like I could just sit across the table from someone and type them, because you know the numbers. When you do this work in a really rich, robust, and deep way, you realize how big these numbers are and how complex the system is and how. Complex people are, and it becomes less of just sort of a quick way that you can caricature yourself or somebody else. And it's really something that's very layered and textured and complex. So I know sometimes people think that I'm not being honest with them with it. I say, no. Gosh, honestly, I'm really not thinking about what number someone else is unless they just want to talk to me about that or tell me that, or explore that with me. Uh, but it, it, it doesn't, it doesn't cross my mind most of the time.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 11:44

Yeah. And I think the more people you really talk to on a deeper level about it, you know, like you're saying, you know so much and there are so many nuances. So even watching a TV show, one, I'm not thinking about it, but two, I'm like, but there's so much more to that character that we don't know. So like how could you possibly know their type? And sometimes on social media, people are like, no, this person is definitely of this type. And I'm like, I.

Hunter Mobley: 12:09

I know, I don't know. I, you know, and, and in some ways you, you might be like me. It's like some of that I've learned the hard way where I've just felt so certain. That I, I, I, you know, knew what number somebody was. And then I really have the opportunity to get under the hood and get to know them and what motivates them. And I, I understand some of the other layers to their onion, maybe trauma, pain, loss, grief, background that they're dealing with. And all of a sudden I think, oh my goodness, I've got a. I've gotta be careful. You know, I, I, that was just the tip of the iceberg of what there was to know about them. And, um, so we, we learned that hopefully on the wisdom path.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 12:48

Yeah. So then when you encountered, you know, this is, you know, all nine types, Suzanne's presenting, were there any other types that really resonated or stood out for you? I.

Hunter Mobley: 13:00

Um, there were, you know, I, I did walk away from that. It was sort of a know your number experience that she was leading from that church staff. And I did walk away knowing that I was a two. But, um, and, you know, people's journeys are so different. I always encourage people to, you know, don't be discouraged if it takes you years. I know some people that. Travel the world and make a living teaching the Enneagram. And it took them kind of some years to discern between a couple of numbers. So everybody's journey is really different and unique. But, um, there were, the other two numbers, Stephanie, that I, I did sort of have to wrestle with were nine and four. Um, and, and those were numbers that I think are not uncommon for twos sometimes to those to be two others that sort of crop up and you just have to kinda take a deeper look at them. But two really emerged, um, quickly for me. Uh, I think, you know, nine is so. Similar in so many ways to two in, in terms of our kind of deferential posture to other people and to life. So I think when I was hearing some of the ways that nines can sort of make themselves small to make other people feel good, um, you know, I, I had some resonance with that and I had to learn deeper about what really nine was and understand that. Their way of seeing and being motivated didn't speak as directly to me. And then four, you know, twos are connected to four with a line in movement and we move toward four when we are in more of a secure integration place. And um, it's funny as a. I think just as a, you know, some of this is not connected to my personality, but just connected to, you know, I've always enjoyed art and music and I grew up in a, uh, you know, sort of artistic culture and family, and so I think I kind of always like, wanted to be a four. So I really, I love fours. I kind of, I, I sort of joke with friends in my life. I collect fours in my life, but, um, those were the other two numbers for me that I had to, had to think about. In a deep way to really understand which was gonna be the number that spoke the most to me.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 15:12

Yeah. What were the points of clarity for you that you were like, oh, I'm definitely a two? Because this I think is tricky, especially the two nine comparison. And I know I've heard you and Joe Stale talk about that'cause he's a nine. Um, but even the two and four comparison, I've seen that a few times. Um, what were the points that made you be like, oh no, I actually lead with two.

Hunter Mobley: 15:34

Well, I'll tell you between two and nine, the biggest point of clarity to me between those two numbers for me, and I think when I teach now too, this is kind of how I talk about those two numbers as being different is, um, both twos and nines will. In some ways look similar in their deferential posture like I was describing. So both twos and nines are likely to say, you know, Hey Stephanie, I, you know, we don't have to do what I want to do. Let you know. What are you interested in? Let's go with that. What would you like to do today? And so that looks really similar. The difference though, is nines are doing that honestly because they're not sure that their presence makes a big enough difference to really. M make their own agenda known and expect that it would be honored and received. Whereas twos, if I'm really honest with myself, the reason why I adopt a deferential posture with a lot of people is because I, it's sort of a strategy to earn place in that person's life. And so it's like the subtle differences, you know, whereas nines. Many times think, I'm not sure how much my presence makes a difference in this relationship. Twos we're real, real, real sure that we're not sure how you could do without us, you know, and so there's, there's almost this fun. Even though it looks similar, there's a fundamental difference between twos and nines in that I, I am sure. Of the difference I can make now that in your life. Now that doesn't always mean that I'm sure of my place in your life and I may be trying to do things to still earn appreciation or earn place, but I am sure that if you will just let me in, I can really make a big impact or a difference. And nines don't see that same way. Um, you know, and the four, the four difference for me really is, um. You know, fours, one of their gifts. This is one of the beautiful great things about fours that I aspire to as a two, and that I, I learn from and that I try to go pick up through that line that connects me to four is fours at the beautiful core are just people of authenticity that are a little bit like. Take it or leave it. Like it or not, this is kind of who I am, you know, and, and sometimes it's, they think, you know, dang, I wish I, it'd be great if I could sort of just turn down some of this and just be a little bit more like what everybody else thinks I should be or expects. And as you know, twos, twos are. A little bit more susceptible to kind of lean over into that three space and sort of adapt and morph and change and, you know, contextualize a little bit to kind of be what, what's needed to be to sort of earn place and earn, relationship and, um. You know, that's just, that's a little subtle difference. but it's, it's an important difference and it's something that I can recognize in myself and recognize often in speaking to twos and fours.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 18:44

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, you know, twos and threes do so much shape shifting. I'm type three. I dunno if, um, you knew

Hunter Mobley: 18:51

We're all kind of right there together.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 18:53

Yeah. And so we do so much shape shifting and I think I've seen fours do it for sure. And um, but they hate it

Hunter Mobley: 19:02

They hate it

Stephanie Barron Hall: 19:02

they know they're doing it.

Hunter Mobley: 19:04

they do. They hate it. And, and to be honest, and this is really a compliment to them, they're not as good at it. As twos and threes are, you know, and that's a compliment really to fours, you know, it's they, they pick it up and they try it on a little bit, but because of that core commitment to inner knowing and authentic living, that's a beautiful gift of fours. They're just not quite as good at it and they kind of hate it. And so they don't do it quite as long or as deep or as wide as sometimes twos and threes pick that up to do.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 19:37

Yeah. Which we are like, here's my tailor made personality just for you.

Hunter Mobley: 19:42

Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 19:43

Yeah. so. I had a friend a few years ago make a joke that types one, two, and three are the strivers, right? Like the, the types that, and I do think that there's truth to that ones, twos and threes take on so much extra responsibility that's like beyond what should be in their scope, right? And like Suzanne always says is like a big thing for twos is knowing what's mine to do and what isn't. And I think ones and threes also have a hard time with that. Um. And so I noticed this theme in your book that's all about this concept of cease striving. And I remember, you know, I was raised in a similar background and you know, went to, I got my little biblical studies minor,

Hunter Mobley: 20:27

Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 20:28

when I was an undergrad. Um, and I remember that concept coming up so much and. even like you were saying, kind of connecting with it, right? Connecting with the, the idea, but having no idea for myself what that actually meant. And I'm wondering if you could tell me more about what that hits on for you and how it kind of became linked to this whole concept of, of letting go and finding yourself.

Hunter Mobley: 20:53

Yeah, I, Stephanie, I, I do, uh, that's been such an important part of my journey, you know, I sounds like similar to you. You know, I grew up like many of us in a conservative, Christian evangelical, uh, culture and dynamic and, um. In that and, you know, in the American South, which is kind of the headquarters of all that. So it was sort of that on steroids and I figured out how to do it well and, and it meant a lot to me. And, and you know, God bless the broken road, it taught me a lot and I'm so grateful for all the pieces of the story and all the pieces of the background. But one of the. The impulses that it really led me to adapt, adopt in my own spiritual journey was this idea that, hey, we gotta take the hill and we gotta do big things for God. You know, that sort of the underlying message was, it's gonna be hard, you're gonna have to work hard. It's gonna be tough. Culture's gonna be against you, but you gotta climb the hill. And if you climb and you fight and you work and you. Get there, you know, and, and so in, in my own spiritual kind of understanding, there was embedded this idea that, you know, man, it's gonna be really hard and it's gonna be tough, but God expects big things from me. And so that whole mindset of spirituality is really all about striving. And unfortunately, it's all about ego because at the end of the day. The, it's based on this idea that, um, I can figure out and I can do what God wants me to do, and I can do it well enough that it will make a big change and please God and make an impact and along the way. We all do some really wonderful things and some people are helped and we have some great experiences and everything contains its opposite and there's some good results from all that, and it doesn't do much for our souls. What it does as it builds our egos and our personalities, because we are still in control of our spiritual journeys, we are still in control of, in many ways our relationship for God and, and I. I had to, I, I had to unlearn that. And, um, you know, frankly, like, like a lot of unlearning, the only reason why you unlearn it is because it stops working for you in the same ways that it used to. And, um, I just, I. Wasn't having the, the success of, you know, overcoming all the things I wanted to overcome. And, and, and I had to start kind of asking myself some tough questions about, you know, what, what is this about? Is this really what the spiritual life is about? Are there other ways of approaching spirituality? And, and through those kind of. Seasons of questioning and some deconstructing that was happening in my own theology and my own life. I was introduced to the language and the posture of contemplation as a, as a very different approach to a spiritual journey. And it was, it was like the thing that was missing. You know, it's similar to the Enneagram. Once I was introduced to it, um, it just, it, it just clicked. It just, it was true to me. I didn't need, uh, I didn't need to be convinced really, of the Enneagram. I didn't need to be convinced of contemplation. It was just when I was introduced to those two tools, those two spiritual wisdom traditions, they just resonated in my inner knower as true. And it's something that I needed. And so as I then began to swim deeper in the waters of learning about contemplative spirituality and contemplation, um, what I came to see is, oh my goodness, this is actually kind of the paradox of I. The active spirituality, the Take the Hill spirituality. In the book, I call it, you know, five step Spirituality. You know, what are the five steps? Let's figure'em out. Let's do'em really right? And let's get'em done today. Uh, contemplation is really the opposite posture of that in so many ways. It's about letting go, not taking on, it's about subtracting, not adding. It's about emptying our minds so that the presence of the holy can. Phil versus us going and getting something and doing something for God. It's about seeing that God's work is happening all around us and, and it's unseen and, and you know, we're not driving it and we're not controlling it. So, um. Yeah, and then as I started to learn more about contemplative spirituality and adopting a spiritual posture of letting go, I started to see the way in which the Enneagram is inviting us to the same thing. It's inviting us to let go of false self and ego and personality. Not because they're bad, not because they won't help us, not because we don't ever need them, but because they become so, so strongly. Dripped that they actually keep us from getting to some of the truer, deeper things of the soul. So the Enneagram, I realized is inviting us to let go so that the truer thing can be revealed. Contemplative spirituality is really about allowing us, inviting us to let go so that deeper, truer things can be revealed. And as I saw those two systems. Really speaking the same language. Then I became fascinated with learning how are these two systems not just parallel tracks that are speaking similar language, but how are they actually interwoven and interdependent? And that's what I became really convinced of. That's what, in a way, the book is really about. I, I'm now Stephanie kind of a. A believer that I don't think you can really do the deep transformative work that the Enneagram invites you into without something that looks like a contemplative way of living. Now, you don't have to have the words. You don't have to. Plenty of people find their way to health and wisdom without the words of the Enneagram or the words of contemplative spirituality, and it's not even about one. Theology or one belief system in the holy, but it's the posture that contemplation invites us to of opening up and letting go that is rooted and connected to the transformation that can happen of moving from personality back to true self.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 27:29

Yeah. Yeah. it, it's interesting that you say that because I very much take a non-spiritual approach to the Enneagram in the sense that I don't, Have any specific, like religious bent to it and, and really like, I just wrote this book that's like Enneagram in real life, all these practices, but I actually totally agree with you because realistically all of the practices that are gonna actually move the needle are things where it's learning how to not look through a pinhole. It's like having a wide angle lens on what are the options and what are the choices and like let's observe ourselves and, and so like I think by definition that there are so many contemplative. Ways to go about it that aren't specifically in like, like what you're saying. They're not in a specific religious tradition, but offer us the perspective that we need that because the Enneagram, our types we're so stuck in our perspective.

Hunter Mobley: 28:22

Yes, we are, we are, we're so stuck in our way of seeing and, and so when we think about, well, how am I gonna get unstuck in my way of seeing it can't be just another. Picking up of some other set of tools or tricks or tips or five steps, it's gotta be something, a whole different posture. It's gotta be, whoa, how, how do I, how do I open up? How do I let go? How do I, how do I kind of have. The layers lifted off so that I can, the Enneagram tells us, just like contemplative spirituality tells us, it tells us that the truer, deeper thing, the immortal diamond, the virtue all, it was always there in you. It just got covered and protected by these layers. And so our, our lifetime of work is really about. Doing things and adopting mentalities and postures that allow the layers to fall away so that the truer things can actually reemerge, not things that are outside of ourselves, things that are actually fundamentally inside that we're always there. That's what's exciting. You know, we, when we talk about the Enneagram, it's like nobody needs to go get anything that they don't have. It's really a journey of returning to something that is fundamentally truer. And, um, that's what's so, so compelling about it to me.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 29:44

Yeah, and I think that's why for me, in this process, it's been so important and like has walked hand in hand with some of my own deconstruction process because I had to. Walk away from the doctrine of total depravity that I was taught is like the only way. And if, if I believe that we all have this essence, then it's like, well, that doesn't actually fit with the total

Hunter Mobley: 30:04

No. No.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 30:07

so I'd love to talk about that a little bit more because, you know, you highlight that there is an overfocus on the passions, right? rather than the virtues. And so it sounds like. Kind of, you're thinking of it the opposite way. Not we're chipping away the passion, but we're making more space for the virtue. And by by nature, the passion kind of falls away. And I'm wondering if you can walk us through what that could look like. Like if you have stories or examples of what that could look like for the types I.

Hunter Mobley: 30:35

Well, I, yes. Let's talk through each of the types and, and I'll just say in kind of general, just affirming what you're describing. We, when we first come to know our Enneagram number, usually we do encounter the passion for that number. That's one of the first things we hear. That's one of the first things we can hook into, and that's, it's a helpful way to be able to name and. Describe the language of personality and our Enneagram number, and a lot of it's just connected to our way of being human. You know, Suzanne SBI says all the time that we know ourselves more by what we get wrong than, but what we get. Right? And so that's why if, if I was to go lead a Know Your Number seminar and talk about all of the virtues instead of the passions, everyone would love it, but no one would figure out what number they were. So, so there is an overemphasis on the passion, but. The, the virtue is the truer thing, and here's how I discovered this, and, and this will tie into each of these numbers when you look at the passion and the virtue for each number, I. Okay, so let's look at ones. Anger is the passion. Serenity is the virtue. Okay. Anger, serenity. Hmm. What do those have to do with each other? Well, let's look at twos. Humility is the passion, or sorry. Pride is the passion. Humility is the virtue. Hmm. Humility and pride. Well, you start to notice, we will go through all the numbers. Deceit for threes is the passion. Truthfulness is the virtue. They're opposites. They're opposites, right? Deceit, truthfulness, pride, humility, anger, serenity, and we'll go on and on. You know, fours have some kind of funky words, envy and equanimity, but, but if we unpack what those words really mean and what they look like from an Enneagram perspective, we can see them as opposites. If we just see that, that the passion and the virtues are opposites. Then what we all of a sudden are led to see is, whoa, okay, if the virtue is tied to true self, the truer thing and the passion is tied to false self, the the less true thing, and those two things are opposite to one another. What I'm learning now is that who I am at my core, in my inner being, is actually the opposite of what my Enneagram number describes and. That is weird and strange and encouraging and inspiring. Because it means that's the fundamental answer to, you know, well, all you're trying to do is just kind of put me in a box and limit me. No, actually, what I'm gonna tell you is the way that you come to know yourself and have been described and would be described by others about your personality is the 180 degree turn from who you really are. And so again, anger and serenity for ones. Pride and hu, and humility for twos, dece and truthfulness for threes, equanimity and in and envy for fours, greed and non-attachment for fives, fear and courage for sixes, sevens, gluttony and sobriety. Those are easy to see as opposites, eights, lust, and innocence. And then finally, nines with sloth. And action. And. Each of those differences, those opposite turnings, that the passion and the virtue give us are the first invitation into the good news of the mystery of the Enneagram, which is there is something that's a part of your inner essence and your soul and your true self that is fundamentally different and opposite from what your personality bears out now. Then we each have a journey of, well, how do we get there? And, and the journey is multifaceted. Um, there are lots of pathways for how do we go from. Really the journey in life is, you know, virtue to passion, hopefully back to virtue, you know, so, but a lot of us, you know, we see passion, we see our personality, we see our Enneagram numbers. So our, our question is how do we go from passion back to virtue? And that word back is important because again, it's something that's already there. It's not something you've gotta go find and get and grab. It's something you've got to rediscover and. Stephanie, I think there are a lot of ways we could talk about many, many pathways. One of the entry points that I think is particularly helpful is really about finding contemplative practices that speak to the repressed center of intelligence for each number. So. When we talk about the numbers, sometimes we group them in these stands groupings of we say ones and twos and sixes have a lot of things in common, and then we say threes and sevens and eights have a lot of things in common, and fours and fives and nines have a lot of things in common. There's other ways we can group the numbers, but this is one way and. The fundamental thing that those three groupings have in common is which of thinking, feeling, or doing lives in the basement and is underrepresented. So for ones and twos and sixes, it's thinking. So that means when I'm talking to ones and twos and sixes about this journey from. Passion back to virtue. I'm saying you have got to challenge your thought life. You have got to bring up thinking, you have got to confront the. Traditional ways that you have thought and, and ordered your thinking around, that's, that's one of the royal pathways back to your virtue. And so as you can think about ways of living or contemplative practices that really address. The mind and address thinking and shift thinking, then that may be one of the greatest openings for you. Ones, twos and sixes toward the life of virtue. Back from passion. Well, for threes and sevens and eights, it's feeling lives in the basement. So I talked to threes and sevens and eights about finding practices, finding habits, finding disciplines, finding ways of, of being that really hook into. Feeling soft, tender, layered, very textured feeling, not just passion, not just good things, not just intensity. All the feeling spectrum. And that's one of the ways that they can find their way back to virtue and fours and fives and nines. It's, it's the action center, it's the body it's doing. And so really when I specifically, when I talk about contemplative practices for fours and fives and nines, I say fours and fives and nines. Go pick up contemplative practices that actually bring your body into motion and into action. Bring your body into the equation. Go, walk, labyrinth, go. You know, go do some breath work. Do something that reengages your. Action center and your body center. That's just one way of thinking about, well, how might each number approach the journey from passion back to virtue? There are so many ways, um, but, but really looking at those centers of intelligence is, is one, one Good way. And. Ultimately the reason why I keep talking about contemplative practices, it's not, like you said, it's not even so much about one or two specific spiritual modalities or practices that I'm, I'm calling people to, I'm inviting people to think about a posture that is more about letting go and less about taking on, and that's what I mean when I talk about contemplation and, and whatever we. Do in our Enneagram work and transformative journey, if it's going to be about releasing ego and releasing passion, it can't be about taking on. It can't be about doing the thing. It's gotta be about undoing and letting go and subtracting, and that's where we're gonna find virtue, reemerging, and showing up again.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 38:51

Yeah. and I think when I think of those, you know, when I think about like the one for one Susan Sixes, I'm like, well, that seems easy. But then I have to remember like the pressure that I feel when I'm like, I want to avoid emotions coming up right now. That's the pressure that they feel in those moments too. where they're being challenged.

Hunter Mobley: 39:11

Because ones and twos and sixes, you know, we're thinking all the time. It's just the problem is what are we thinking about? You know, ones are often spending so much time in self-critical thinking or thinking about what could be done differently or better. And twos, I mean, we're just lost in thoughts about relationships that often aren't true. Sixes are lost in thinking about plans and contingencies and, and things that could go wrong. And so the, the challenge is. Is saying, okay, well can we challenge those traditional ways of thinking? It's kind of similar sometimes for threes and sevens and eights where feeling it's like they feel you feel as a 3, 7, 8 all the time. It's just that are there, are there pieces of the feeling spectrum that are underrepresented that sort of get ignored and left out? What if we could go pick those up too?

Stephanie Barron Hall: 40:01

Mm-hmm.

Hunter Mobley: 40:01

You know, and fours and fives and nines. I mean, they're all, they're busy people doing life just like the rest of us. But the question is, are they doing the things that really are the most important and critical things for them to do, or are they doing in more of a distracted way that actually. Gives them permission to not get to the things that, that really, they, they know they ought to get to. Um, but just being busy kind of makes them feel like, well, you know, I'm busy. I, I'll, I'll get to that later. So that's the invitation really with those underrepresented centers is thinking about how can I pick up a different approach to that center or a different way of interacting with that center I.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 40:49

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um. One of the things that I really liked, and I think everyone should, I mean, I, I enjoyed reading your book, like the, the front matter is very much like your story and like your history, which I, I enjoyed because I always liked those parts of books. People skipped straight to the Enneagram part. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like we could get to that. Let's talk about the person. Um, but you talked about these ways, like these different examples of how, um, like a one who was a parent was like. Found a little spot of Serenity right in her day. And it made me think of just because of, of this avenue that we're, we're discussing this in, um, I was speaking with somebody who's a self-preservation five. So she's very much like naturally well like. Personality says, disengage from the body, right? Disengage from the physical world. And she told me about how from a young age, she started horseback riding and it required her to be very in tune with her body because her horse was getting all sorts of signals. She's like, what are you doing? Why are you doing these crazy things? I didn't tell you to do that. But what she had to no notice is like, oh, my body is telling the horse to do something different than what. I am saying, like my brain is trying to

Hunter Mobley: 42:13

Yes,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 42:14

So I think that's like such a good example of like one way that's, it is a no sense contemplative, right? It's self observation. It's like, but it's, you know, not sitting on the, sitting down and like meditating or something like that.

Hunter Mobley: 42:29

Exactly. No, you're so right. I mean, gosh, they're probably, I can hardly think of a better practice for a five maybe than, than horseback riding, you know? And that's what, um, I want people through this book, two, to see contemplative spirituality and contemplative practice as something bigger than just silence and solitude. It there. There are principles of silence and solitude and stillness in contemplation, and those can be wonderful practices. But, um, I know people who, their contemplative practice is working a jigsaw puzzle. It, it's, it's a way of pulling something apart and putting something together and there's intention behind it and it's, it's. It's doing, it's it. They're, they're putting their hands to the plow, to something, you know, and with the right intention, to the right spirit. That can be a contemplative practice. Horseback riding can be this beautiful contemplative practice when we engage with some intention to let go, to learn something new to. Challenge our traditional ways of seeing to be open to surprise and surrender. That's a fundamentally contemplative posture. And, um, so many things like you're describing can, can fit the bill for that beyond just sometimes what we picture as maybe sitting silently in a chair and meditating or engaging in stillness or centering prayer. Those all belong too. But it's, it's bigger than just that I.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 44:00

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, I wonder how you would counsel somebody who's brand new to this and they're just beginning, you know, their spiritual journey, specifically using the Enneagram and in contemplative practices. Where do they start?

Hunter Mobley: 44:16

They start that. I love that question. Gosh, what I would encourage someone who is saying, you know, I'm interested in the Enneagram and I'm interested in this idea or posture of contemplation, where do I begin? Um, I would say begin with a practice that we, in spiritual circles call centering prayer. Centering prayer and, and again, you can have all types of theology and spiritual background and find your pathway to hook into this, but centering prayer is about sitting down for 20 minutes and setting an intention. And the intention is simply to be open to the presence and activity of the holy that is unseen. That's not about your presence and your activity, but the unseen presence and activity of the holy and letting go of thoughts for 20 minutes and. What that rewiring will do after a prolonged period of, of daily practice is it will teach you about places you can go in your body that are freed from traditional thinking and are more spacious and roomy than our clutter of mind. That is usually where we live, and it will show you some deeper places you can go in your body and, um. That's the beginning. That's the beginning. Now then there are unlimited contemplative rhythms or practices to pick up or try on. But when you adopt something that looks, which really is centering prayer, is just fundamentally meditation with some type of intention behind it. so once you, once you practice and adopt that way of sitting and letting go of thoughts. Engaging with more inner spaciousness than you previously knew existed in your body and your heart and your mind, then that's where now all of a sudden anything can become contemplative of you riding the horse, working the jigsaw puzzle, you know, walking down the street because now you have this new place that you know how to get to in your soul. And, um, you practice that in many ways through centering prayer. So that's, that's where I would encourage people to start. And there's, there's so much that you can do, um, and go get, if you are a spiritual person, you can find all sorts of things about centering prayer and, and learn that if. If the idea of spirituality just is a bridge too far for someone, then you go pick up a meditation practice that is really armed to engage you with the same inner spaciousness. And um, that's the starting place I would say.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 47:13

Yeah. It's such a good one and, and I think. So many of these practices that are so helpful are the ones that are like simple

Hunter Mobley: 47:24

Yeah, I'd say they're simple. They're not easy.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 47:26

Yeah. Yeah. And I think even as a three, like once I started becoming more committed to meditation, and for a while, I'll be honest, I've been out of the practice for a while, but when I was doing it regularly, I did see such a massive difference I think. That feels like totally opposite to type three in a lot of ways, but I hear from a lot of fives that their brains can just not settle down for that. And do you have any special guidance for, you know, those mind types like 5, 6, 7, who have a really hard time with

Hunter Mobley: 48:02

Oh yeah. Whoever really had a hard time kind of engaging. Yes. You know? Um. It is hard for all of us, but you're right, it the to settle down thoughts and kind of release our just inner reliance on thinking and all the inner conflict that's always going on, you know, in our head and in our brains is, is challenging. And so I, what I encourage people to do is, is use breath work. Um, and so breath work is really about centering your. Attention. Your attention. I've talked about intention, but now I'm talking about attention center. Your attention on your breath, on your breathing, and anytime thoughts come. Let'em go. And, and the way that you can let them go is by re-engaging with the breath. Just now put your focus somewhere different. Put your focus on breathing, breathing in, breathing out, breathing in, breathing out, breathing in, breathing out. Listen to it, hear it, feel it. And that's a way of recalibrating from the world of constant swirling thoughts. Um, so I think breath work. Is is really an important part of it. And without breath work, sometimes we don't have another way to just kind of, we need something else to engage our attention on. If we're trying to orient our attention away from thoughts and putting your attention on your breath is one good way to practice that.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 49:39

Yeah, that's such, that's such a helpful one. I think the only thing that I ever add with that is like, yeah, it's fine if it's like your mind's all over the place for a while. Like just

Hunter Mobley: 49:51

so is everybody else's. You know, you're in good company and this is something that we practice and we try on and we, we know that it's a lifetime of work.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 50:02

Hmm.

Hunter Mobley: 50:03

And that there will be seasons in our life where we will come to that sort of meditation or centering prayer practice and it will just feel like the, a warm blanket wrapping around us. And there will be seasons of life where we will come to it and it will feel like a struggle every second of the way. And that's part of being human and living as well. And we're gentle with ourselves and we, the only thing that we don't do is just. Not return to it, you know,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 50:34

Yeah. So keep coming back.

Hunter Mobley: 50:36

keep coming back.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 50:37

Yeah. Um, where can people find your book and find the rest of your work?

Hunter Mobley: 50:43

Yeah, thank you. Um, so you can find really me in all the places just through Enneagram Hunter. That's my website. That's my Instagram handle. That's my Facebook. So enneagram hunter.com. And. On Instagram, but the book Letting Go Finding You is, uh, releasing May 13th. I, it's funny, just as of yesterday and today, people who pre-ordered are already starting to get them trickling in, which I don't, I don't know how that all works, but people are showing up some, sometimes with them in their hands. Um, but letting go, finding you, and you can find it on Amazon anywhere. You would buy books and, um. It's there and it's really, it's this work, it's, it's memoir, it's Enneagram, it's contemplative spirituality, all mashed up and um, because I think they're all really telling the same story and that's what it's trying to do.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 51:34

Yeah. I mean, I certainly enjoyed it and I think I was honestly a little bit nervous'cause I was like, I really have not dabbled much in, you know, this sort of spirituality in many years. And I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna find. And I, so yeah, I, I really, really enjoyed it. Um, so I really hope our listeners will pick it up. I have two final questions I ask

Hunter Mobley: 51:58

Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 51:59

Um, first one is, tell me about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year.

Hunter Mobley: 52:05

Hmm. a book that has helped me, shaped me, refresh me in the last year. you know, one of, I, I read a lot and I read fiction. I'll tell you the. One of the most important fiction books that I read this in the past year, it was called This Tender Land. And, um, it is by, uh, Walter something. We'll find it and, and you can tell all your people, um, once we Google. But this Tender Land and it is a story, is a fictional story about, uh, one of the really. Important and heartbreaking periods of our nation's history where, many. Native American indigenous people were, uh, there was a goal to mainstream and, um, to send them children to schools and orphanages and places that would really, uh, bring them into more of a, what we thought of as American culture and, and some real sad atrocities and some beautiful, uh, lives that, that emerged through that season. It was. It was beautiful, this tender land. I, I love fiction, I love stories, I love storytelling. So, um, that's something that's meant a lot to me lately.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 53:22

Yeah. Yeah, I will check that out. and final question. Tell me a piece of advice that has really stuck with you.

Hunter Mobley: 53:29

I was thinking about this today when I was having a conversation with my brother about a, a life transition that he's going through, and I told him one of the most fundamentally important, uh, principles to me that I've learned from Quaker spirituality is the idea that way will open and way will close, and that it is an act of violence against self and the holy to. Force things into being and that we should pay a lot more attention in our lives in terms of what we, decisions we make, or discernment that we're doing, to what way is opening and what way is closing. And I try to think about that often and, and lean in to the way that opens and, and allow the way that closes to close.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 54:25

Mm-hmm. That's so challenging for so many of us who just like wanna make it happen.

Hunter Mobley: 54:33

Absolutely.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 54:34

think we should add that to your like, uh, practices for assertive types

Hunter Mobley: 54:41

that's

Stephanie Barron Hall: 54:41

I can form reality to fit my will.

Hunter Mobley: 54:44

Absolutely. Absolutely. And me too. I've got a big three wing. I can do it too.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 54:49

yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been really lovely to chat about your book. and. just about the Enneagram and your story with it. So I really appreciate you joining me today. Um, and I hope everyone will grab, letting go finding you.

Hunter Mobley: 55:06

Thank you so much, Stephanie. What a treat for me. I appreciate it.

Steph Barron Hall: 55:10

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify