Camden: 1:47

a personal conviction decision, discernment or values of, yeah, of waiting until marriage for sex. is not purity culture. It's when that is not a choice or decision. When it's coerced out of fear and control, that's when it becomes purity culture. and so I try to guide people in a process of reconstructing their sexual ethic based on their values. One that's congruent with their values and doesn't have to follow either hookup culture, since that's often what's offered to us as an alternative or this sexual ethic based on shame, which is purity culture.

2:26

Hello and welcome to Enneagram in Real Life, the podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host, Stephanie Barron Hall, and on today's episode I have a really interesting topic for us. So this episode is a bit of an any adjacent episode. We are gonna talk about the guest's type and how she found her type and all of that type of stuff. But this topic is actually more so about the concept of purity culture and exploring what that actually means and how it impacts us. So you've heard in the past that I've shared that I grew up in, some church experiences that. I really emphasize things like purity culture. And while I'm not in any of those situations anymore, this feels like a relevant topic because so many people I know and folks I've spoken with or, or talked with who listen to the podcast, have discussed how this topic impacts their mental and emotional health. So we're really talking about this question of what is it like to heal from purity culture without losing your faith? Because you know, some people, they choose to walk away from their faith, and some people don't want that. And so, today's guest is here to talk about what it's like to keep your faith and recover from purity culture. So Dr. Camden Ganti is a licensed clinical psychologist with nearly 15 years of experience as a therapist and college professor. In addition to her private therapy practice, she is a writer, speaker, and coach on issues of relationships, sexuality, trauma, and faith. Her first book Recovering from Purity Culture, released in 2024. Dr. Camden lives in Knoxville, Tennessee with her husband and their daughter and son. Learn more about Camden on her website, www.drcamden.com. Dr. Camden's book is called Recovering From Purity Culture, and she also has a freebie guide on her website called How Purity Culture Affects Your Enneagram Type. So. So make sure to check that out. I have the link for that in the show notes as well. So whether this whole purity culture concept impacts you or doesn't, this will be a really interesting episode to discuss, whether you're a six or you know, a six or whether you are just curious about what it's like to change your perspective on something like purity culture. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Dr. Camden Ganti.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 4:49

Well, Dr. Camden Ganzi, welcome to the podcast.

Camden: 4:53

Thank you, Steph. I'm glad to be here.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 4:55

Yeah. Um, I'm excited to chat with you today about Purity Culture and your book. before we dive into any of that, I'd love to talk about the Enneagram a little bit and just tell me about your journey with the Enneagram and how you found your type.

Camden: 5:08

Okay. Yeah, I started studying it a few years ago. It was probably like 2019 or so, um, just by hearing about it on podcasts, so just listening to podcasts and I was really intrigued by it. Of course, I'm a psychologist, so I'd been trained and like different kind of personality assessments, but what I really liked about the Enneagram was that it got to your motivations. Rather than just external behavior. So I felt like it got deeper and it also really focused on strengths and um, and growth and health. And I liked that rather than just focusing on like what was wrong about your personality. So yeah, so I listened to a lot of podcasts and started to identify with a couple of different types. And then I read some books, um, you know, read the Road back to You kind of. Was a, a good intro into it and then several other books since then to try to get deeper. Um. Yeah, and I landed on, um, six Wing five, so that, that's my type. And, um, very much, it's very much helped me as a person and in my marriage. It's helped us a lot to understand each other better. And then it's helped me in my practice to understand my clients better. It's become a standard question. I ask all my clients, do you know your Enneagram type? If so, what is it? And it helps us to really. Make the most of their strengths and also understand their desires and their, the lens that they kind of look through, um, at times. And also really helps to know if they lean towards like gut, head or heart. You know, shame, fear, anger, like I find those, um, tools really helpful. So yeah, it's just been really good for me personally and professionally.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 6:43

Yeah. Um, I'm curious about the typing specifically as a six because I know many sixes and I work with a lot of sixes, and there is this desire for certainty. Um, and so sometimes it's like they wanna feel certain about their type, and I'm like, well, unfortunately I cannot give you certainty because. You know, it can just be really challenging. So what was that process like for you? Like how long did it take you? What other types did you gravitate toward?

Camden: 7:16

Um, yeah, I think there was, there's always a few that you have a couple of characteristics of or can relate to, and then there's a few I could immediately, you know, cross off the list. Um, I think I identified quite a bit with a one, um, two and, um, following rules and being, having an inner critic and being kind of hard on myself. So I identify with that and, but as I looked into. Um, like, am I one or am I a six? I learned that six wing fives can often look like once, maybe there's, there's more of that, um, following of the rules or wanting, um, knowledge to help guide us. Um, and really being able to distinguish between the inner critic and the inner committee helped me land on six, Yeah, it's not so much, I've moved away a lot from the perfectionist and the CRI critical of myself, but it is still some, a lot of self doubt that I struggle with or looking outside myself to external belief systems or leaders, experts, authority structures to kind of guide me and tell me where to go. And the Enneagrams been a great tool to help me grow in that my own, um. Um, techniques and skills that I use in therapy have helped me as I use them on myself, just to look within and listen to myself and be able to get in touch with my intuition and trust, self-trust. So yeah, so that's really what helped me kind of narrow it down.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 8:38

Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, it's funny I lean more into subtypes versus the wings. Um, and so I think the way that you're describing that expression of six sounds a lot like social six to me. I don't know if that subtype resonates for you. Um, but I. Married to a social six. And it's so interesting, like seeing the way that, like the ideological authority concept, um, plays out in that, that subtype and how it really does look like type one. I mean, he came on the podcast before as a one

Camden: 9:12

Oh, wow.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 9:13

and, and so it does look very one-ish, because I think for social sixes, the fear can be buried.

Camden: 9:20

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I'm also. Probably a little bit more of a counterphobic sex than, than a phobic one. Like, you know, I do kind of often go after the things that I'm scared of, like writing and publishing a book, um, and putting myself out there. And so that can be, can kind of trip you up with typing too. But you're right, I, I am a social, um, a social sex. And so having community and having relationships and being a part of a group or group belonging is really important to me. Um. And so that kind of relates to the topic we'll be talking about today and how all of that is, was kind of, you know, threatened or in flux because of, yeah, because of changes in my beliefs and faith. Um. But yeah, just being able to honor your your subtype I think is helpful too. Like I realized last year I'd been working out at home doing yoga at home for a long time and I joined a yoga studio'cause I realized like I'm a social six. Like I need that social. Um, it provides so much accountability and just is more encouraging and motivating to me, and I can get outta my head more easily when I'm in the group fitness environment, like with yoga rather than at home. So. I still do it at home sometimes, but just being able to like honor that, that was like a need for me.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 10:33

Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. because. I am a social repressed subtype. So, I really like the in-person as well. you know, but it's sometimes it's like, oh, I don't wanna be around people. Like there is like that part of it too, where it's like, oh, I don't wanna be like a part of a group.

Camden: 10:57

Okay. Hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 10:58

and I think, I think it's just funny how those different instincts play out. Um, so what about your journey with becoming a psychologist and then deciding to then really specialize in purity, culture recovery and religious trauma? Like what inspired you? I mean, when I hear those things, I'm like, oh, there's a story there.

Camden: 11:19

Yeah, there usually is. Um, in school we said, research is me search. You know, that the, it was usually, um, motivated by something in our own personal life and I went into psychology wanting to study relationships, feeling like my family upbringing impacted me so significantly. I wanted to study marriage and family and, um. Yeah, all of those relationship dynamics. Um, and then in school I specialized in couples therapy in grad school and sexuality. I took extra classes in that. And um, yeah. And then I never really set out to be a sex therapist or talk about sex so much like I do now. But I started realizing like, how. Some of these, what I would now call toxic beliefs and myths of purity culture affected me how some of the rigidity in black and white thinking in my faith tradition had negatively impacted me and also impacting my clients. I was seeing the effects in my clients and yeah, I wanted a way to kind of reconcile that with what a healthy faith expression could look like, um, for people and to kind of. Present that both and perspective. And so I started writing and speaking on social media mostly. Um, and that like evolved over a very long period it took to get to writing the book and publishing in October, was to present that both and perspective of both. Here's how we heal from and move away from, and challenge and dismantle these toxic beliefs while also holding onto the parts of our faith that really do feel nourishing and life-giving and true and good. so that was. Yeah, that was my, my mission and focus.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 12:54

Yeah. And that's so helpful because I know as somebody who was also raised in purity culture, um, it can be really hard to reconcile, well, how do I wanna have a different perspective now? And for some people, like they do. Feel like their faith is a really important part of who they are and they wanna keep that, and integrate that. And so how can you really do that, when you don't have resources to help guide you? So that's so useful. But I'm curious because some of our listeners might not even be familiar with the concept of purity culture. It feels really natural. Right? To me, when I hear that, I'm like, I know exactly what you mean. Like, You know, I'm thinking like Josh Harris and all these things like I kiss dating, goodbye. but tell us, how do you define purity culture and what is the impact that it has?

Camden: 13:42

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I define it as a largely evangelical sociopolitical movement that peaked in the 1990s to two thousands that attempted to persuade young people to be abstinence, sexually abstinent until marriage, using shame and fear as the tools of control. So. A belief in sexual abstinence before marriage is something that's present in other cultures, time periods or faith traditions. But the purity culture that I'm speaking and you know, writing about was specifically this, um, this very rigid evangelical expression of it and the culture that grew up around it. And particularly when millennials like me, were, were teenagers with Joshua Harris. I kissed dating goodbye and there were rings that we wore. Um, some people made pledges to wait until marriage. Some people attended rallies or had purity balls with their fathers. Like all of those were the cultural parts that people outside of evangelicalism might not be familiar with. What they will be familiar with though is probably abstinence only sex education because, In the early two thousands that received, um, government funding even in the public schools. And so those of us who were in even public school at the time, were hearing some version of purity culture. Maybe not a specifically religious one, but a don't have sex. just say no kind of, um,, very, big focus on just abstaining without the holistic sex education in order to make better informed decisions. So, yeah, so I think, Purity culture is gonna be like, we probably speak the same language because we grew up in it, but it's also gonna be familiar to people if even if you didn't grow up in this faith tradition.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 15:16

Yeah, and I didn't realize that, it got government funding. I mean, I grew up in Texas, so in Texas we had abstinence only sex education. But I'm curious, was that pervasive throughout the country?

Camden: 15:28

That's the research I saw that under the George W. Bush administration, it received like national funding, um, and then was found to be largely ineffective. So they kind of dropped off and moved away from that. the research found that like it was largely ineffective in meeting its goals. The biggest effect it had was that it tended to delay sex for 18 months, like, um. If you went through abstinence only education, you were more likely to wait a little longer to have sex for the first time. But it did not prevent teen pregnancy or STIs or, necessarily cause everyone to wait until marriage. So, yeah, it um, that's why I say, you know, largely did not meet its goals. I,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 16:07

Yeah, I mean, somebody was selling a lot of those weird Velcro gloves out there that they, you know, used to demonstrate like, oh, now you're ruined because, you know, you got velcroed together, whatever. So what are some of the myths then, of purity culture? Like obviously one of them it sounds like is that, oh, it prevents teen pregnancy, and you're saying actually the research doesn't bear that out. What are some other things that were myths and formed us as individuals? I.

Camden: 16:34

Yeah. In my book I, I specifically name and describe five of the most pervasive myths in, um. In like religious purity culture specifically. And one is the damaged good myth, which you're alluding to when you say the velvet gloves. Um, you know, just the object lessons that were often used were like you spit in a cup of water and then pass it around and everybody spits in it, and that's representing like the effects of multiple sex partners. And you're gonna be this dirty cup of water that no one wants, or you're a chewed up piece of gum or a ripped up piece of paper. Like those were some of the demonstrations that were used. In schools or churches or rallies, and that sends the message that you're damaged goods and that you should be ashamed that, um, you're broken and, and dirty and used and no one's gonna want you. Um, and that is, is something that like deeply affects a lot of people. Um, whether they had consensual premarital sex, whether they were sexually abused even, and feeling like they're damaged and broken. Um, yeah. So it affects a lot of people and leads to a lot of shame.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 17:36

I'm curious how you work with people who are like, they know, okay, I am carrying all this shame. Or maybe they don't know.'cause I think sometimes we don't know how much shame we're carrying and then. They come into your office and they're like, I wanna keep my faith, but I, this part of it feels integral to the faith that I was taught, and yet it is so painful.

Camden: 18:04

Hmm. Yeah, we first, we work on identifying the difference between shame and guilt and. When guilt comes from a healthy sense of we acted out of alignment with our own values versus shame is when I fear social rejection or disapproval because I violated my social group's values, not my own values. so we really work to distinguish that and, and help them find like healthier and more accepting social groups and communities like. Brene Brown says like, empathy and connection is the antidote to shame. So being able to reach out and find, empathy and, and forms of connection with people in faith-based settings or in non-faith based settings where you feel accepted and you feel like you're not gonna be judged or rejected. That's one of the ways to, to work towards healing the shame.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 18:55

Yeah. Yeah. and I'm, I'm curious more about the Enneagram because I know that you've talked about this before, where, the overlap between purity culture and the Enneagram, and there are certain types that are normally pegged as like, those are the ones that have shame, but. I, in my own experience, like working with a lot of different types of people, I've seen shame as being a a lot more present in, in many types. So I'm, I'm curious if you can give us just like a brief rundown of how purity culture affects each type.

Camden: 19:26

Sure. Yeah. And certainly none of us are immune to shame, unfortunately.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 19:29

Yeah.

Camden: 19:31

Um, but yeah, looking at like type one, I think a person, I have a lot of type one clients and I, I love working with them'cause they're, they're very conscientious and um, and they very much wanna self-improve. But I think the way that purity culture or more broadly like. Fundamentalist religious, um, teachings can affect them, is that they have this perfectionism to the rules, this, this kind of good girl persona that they, they wanna keep. Um, and that can lead to rigid expectations on themselves and judgment of others. Um, one of the myths that I name in my book is called the Spiritual Barometer Myth, where we measure our spirituality by our purity or virginity. and this can lead to a lot of. Like ugly pride and judgment of others if you do uphold, um, those beliefs. And so I think for a type one or any type who, who does uphold those beliefs, they can often fall into judging others. I. with type two, I think it's very, um, common that they could be unaware of their own sexual desires, their own body and pleasure. And because they're so focused on others and giving to others, and that's something that's I. Honestly praised and encouraged in purity culture, especially for women. Purity culture is very embedded in patriarchy and so, um, the beliefs are very patriarchal. It's very much about women serving men's sexual needs. Um, I call it the gatekeepers myth, like women are the gatekeepers of men's sexuality and so a type two woman especially is gonna be susceptible to over focusing on her. Male partner's needs, um, instead of like, what feels good to her or her own body and experience. And then for type three, because there can be often more focused on like image, um, and maybe meeting others' expectations to look good or to gain approval, um, they might also be attracted to the formulas of purity culture. Like, you know, because when you're an achiever. you know, if I do x, Y happens, you know, and, and that formula, or if I can work hard to achieve this goal or outcome that I want. purity culture is very full of formulas and false promises of if you wait, then you're gonna get, um, a fairytale marriage and. Spouse, or if you wait, then your, then your sex life and marriage is gonna be amazing. And that's not always the case. Um, which can lead to a lot of disappointment and disillusionment for, for all of us. But, but that's what came to mind when I thought of a type three, is that, just being attracted to the, that formula and then being disappointed when it doesn't happen. For a type four, they can often feel like too, too much and not enough at the same time. Um, or blame themselves or feel like there's something deficient in them feeling flawed and feeling shame. I think that's the type that's probably most susceptible to the shame of purity culture. Um, particularly if they did not adhere to purity culture's expectations, um, to feel like they're more susceptible to the damaged Good myth. Did you wanna comment on any of these since you were the Enneagram expert, or you want me to just keep going?

Stephanie Barron Hall: 22:37

No, I mean these, these sound great. I was thinking, for the ones and twos in particular, I was kind of thinking about one for type two about the modesty piece. Um, and how that play could play in for a two. I I'm sure that there's something there. and then for a type one, even like the self-judgment, once they're like supposed to flip the switch when they get

Camden: 22:58

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 22:59

and how challenging that could be.

Camden: 23:01

Yeah, I think when you're real attached to this identity of being a good girl, or that means pure, and pure means abstinent, then when you get married, I especially see this in some of my younger clients who their virginity was a very big part of their identity. Um, and they like had a purity ring and gave it to their husband on their wedding day, you know, and then they get married and they're like, am I still pure? You know, there's, there's that loss of identity from Uh, from, yeah, from things changing and, and having difficulty flipping the switch sometime. And that's a good point about the twos and modesty. Um, yeah, a lot of modesty messages of you have to cover up to prevent men from being tempted or lusting or stumbling is the term often used. Um, so I can see how that would affect the tube in particular.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 23:49

Yeah.

Camden: 23:49

So moving, um, forward then with the five, what I thought of here is just like they're very logical and maybe like the black and white rules that purity culture offers. But then I also thought, because. The fives have like that low energy and that need to recharge at times that the pressure to always be sexually available or on for your spouse, especially, you know, for women, um, may be really overwhelming to a five. For the sixes like me, um, purity culture is very attractive because we wanna follow the rules and authority. We look outside ourselves for a belief system that we can trust or for an authority that gives us certainty and security. And it definitely did. Like for me, this. This belief system gave me a lot of security and a lot of sense of I'm doing the right thing and I'm gonna get the reward for it. Um, and I call that the fairytale myth because when it didn't happen for me in the timing that I expected, or that I felt like I was promised, I was really disappointed and felt really, dejected. You know, just like what's the point in all of this? Yeah, so a lot of self-doubt. Then as a six for the sevens, they may rebel against the rules and not like those constraints of purity culture. They may want the freedom. but then conversely, once you get married, if you have trouble flipping a switch when you get married, to. This mind blowing sex that you were promised. If that doesn't happen, there can be a lot of disappointment in that for anyone, certainly. But I think for, when I think of the sevens and just that desire for pleasure and to avoid pain, that can be really painful and and unexpected. I

Stephanie Barron Hall: 25:26

and it, it just blows my mind too, that like in everything in life, I think knowledge and practice really help.

Camden: 25:33

exactly.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 25:35

So like, how are you? I'm sorry. Like how are you gonna like have this mind blowing experience when you have no knowledge and no practice? It does not make sense, but this culture tells us this is the way.

Camden: 25:48

right. Yeah. Like I, I say sex is a learned skill. Like anything in a relationship like communication, you have to work at it. It's gonna take practice, it's gonna take skills, education time, like it's not something that just happens automatically, but there's a lot of those empty promises in. High control religion or in fundamentalist belief systems, there's a lot of those. If you do X God will do Y for you. Um,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 26:11

The cosmic vending machine.

Camden: 26:12

yes, exactly. Yeah. yeah. So they just, they applied that to, when it came to sex for a type eight, they may rebel against the control, the controlling nature of purity culture. Um. But then I also thought, you know, once they get married, they could become controlling or domineering in their marriage or in their sex life if they're not a healthy eight. You know, and if they, especially for men who give into these stereotypes in, um, impurity culture, that they're the sexual aggressors and their, their wife is supposed to be there to meet their needs. Um. Yeah, so that could easily turn into entitlement. and then for the nine, I think an overfocus on your spouse and serving them, rather than yourself and being in touch with your own, um, body and your own desires and just kind of losing yourself and the other person, can often happen. And that can then happen in the bedroom too.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 27:06

Yeah. Uh, yeah. And one of the like, really negative impacts that I have personally seen, obviously this is not research, this is not data, this is just my anecdote, but, I went to a very conservative, Christian school for undergrad and you know, everyone was just getting married, left and right because like when you're under these. Like when you are a human being and you have, you know, whatever desires, and then you know, these are the rules that you have to wait till marriage. People were getting married like in a year or less. And then about like, let's see, so maybe six, seven years ago it was like left and right. All of the people from college were getting divorced and I think. That there's just so much to that where it's like, again, rushing because we have this desire and like we think that everything will be fine'cause that's what we've been told. That's what we've been taught. And for it to not pan out, can be devastating. Um.

Camden: 28:09

Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. I'm so curious what college you went to.'cause I went to a Christian undergrad too that I call a ring by spring school. It

Stephanie Barron Hall: 28:16

Yep. Bring by Springer Your money back, though they would never give your money back.

Camden: 28:21

Yeah. But it was very much. Overemphasized marriage and Yeah, almost more of an emphasis than the degree than that you were getting. And um, and that was part of how, how I was affected was when that didn't happen for me. I got my heart broken instead of getting engaged. and that MRS degree didn't happen. It was just like, well, why have I followed all the rules? Why have I done all of this, um, if I'm not gonna get this promised reward? but I agree with you, Steph. I saw people getting married and. Very young ages, very short time periods of knowing each other and dating. and then, yeah, you wait about a decade after everybody graduates and, and a lot of people have gotten divorced or, you know, they're on onto their second marriage. And I wonder. Yeah, I wonder about that sometimes. Um, for my book, I interviewed a few women who were divorced, and, or remarried because I wanted that perspective. Um, wanted to understand that all of them had gotten married at like 20 and divorced within a few years, and they all had said some version of, yeah, we were just told as long as you marry a Christian who's waiting, like you're just. Everything's gonna be great. Your marriage is gonna be wonderful. And then they ended up in some of them abusive marriages or unhealthy ones, or ones where their, um, spouse was unfaithful. Um, yeah, so suffered a lot of consequences from not having all of the tools in order to make a, a healthy decision on a, on a spouse.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 29:44

Yeah, I mean, I'm really fortunate to be married to a six. So I, uh, we started dating in 2010 and we got married in 2014 and people around us were like, what are you guys doing? Four years? You know, we've been outta college a couple years and we're like, I mean, I. I mean, I think I too, you know, as a three, I'm like, let's you know, next thing, come on. Let, let's move on, move along. But, uh, being married to a six, he's like, no, I really wanna think this through. I wanna be certain, like, I really wanna process this. Um, and not ever gonna jump the gun. And I think that's really good that for us, you know, that we, everyone has their different story and everyone's story is like. Has its own, you know, benefits and, and downfalls, whatever. But, it, it was really interesting just to see the perspective of other people and like how their opinions of us for, you know, quote unquote waiting so long. And in reality it was just like a normal timeframe, right? Yeah.

Camden: 30:43

Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. And I, I got married when I was almost 30, which is for some people and in some regions of the country, very normal in my culture and in the south where I live very late, you know, that was very old to be getting married. Um, and I certainly felt the weight of that'cause I'd been single for many years while everyone around me had gotten married. You know, all my friends, um. Yeah, so I think, yeah. It's just your culture.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 31:11

yeah, and I think again, like because of purity culture that's communicated to you, oh, you must be damaged goods.

Camden: 31:17

Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 31:18

Because again, so much of your worth is, is wrapped up in whether or not somebody wants to marry

Camden: 31:23

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 31:24

'cause you've been told that if you're a godly, if you are pure, somebody will wanna marry you. Of course. And it's, that's not reality.

Camden: 31:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That, so I, I definitely felt like something was wrong with me that I was single for so long. But like you were saying about you guys dated for four years and you're really glad that you took that time. Like, I, we didn't date that long, but I was, I'm glad I was a little bit older. Like I felt like that was a huge advantage. I was already a psychologist when we met and had all this training and so. I didn't find myself, um, suffering from some of the effects of purity culture because I think I had, I had gotten sex education from my training program and was a little bit older. It allowed me to develop more emotional health and maturity than I would've had if, had I gotten married in college like I expected to. I.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 32:16

Okay, this, this makes me like have to ask, you know, devil's advocate, are there any benefits?'cause people might be listening to this and being like, well, you just had a bad experience and you're just railing against this thing. That actually is really good. Are there any benefits like to this type of purity culture context?

Camden: 32:37

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I'll tell you what the research found. Yeah. In qualitative research, which is when you're interviewing people and getting their responses, um, some women noted that following purity culture helped them have more trust in their marriage, feel safer in their marriage, and closer to their spouse. And so they felt some benefits in that. Every time I speak about this, um. Like I've spoken and given trainings to therapists about this topic. There's always someone in there who's from, not from the South where we are, who said like, you know this, this. This kind of dating practice was actually really good for me because where I grew up, um, you know, hookup culture or, um, that was the norm. And so this helped me make more thoughtful decisions and slow things down and not put pressure on every relationship had to include sex, and so they always note. I always have someone who will note some of those positive benefits. So if someone tells me they had a positive experience with purity culture, I say, you know, I'm happy for you and I'm glad, and certainly there can be benefits to the decision to, to wait to have sex until marriage. Like that's a personal decision that I respect and honor. But purity culture as a whole, the fear and control, the shame that it induces, that is what I feel like I'm, I'm. Okay. Criticizing, rather than like the personal values or personal decision or even personal benefit that someone felt, yeah. So that's what we wanna pay attention to.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 34:04

Yeah, because I think when I'm thinking and I'm hearing, you know, people making those types of comments, to me it's different to have your own personal sexual ethic and your own values, like you're saying, versus having this whole entire framework that is built on that shame and control piece. So like you're separating those two concepts. It's not necessarily purity culture, quote unquote, to wait till marriage. You can make whatever choice you feel good about, but. It's the problem is these other extraneous pieces that are really about the control.

Camden: 34:39

Right. That's exactly what I say in my book. Is that a personal conviction decision, discernment or values of, of waiting or, um, yeah, of waiting until marriage for sex. is not purity culture. It's the. It's when that is not a choice or decision. When it's coerced out of fear and control, that's when it becomes purity culture. Um, and so in my book, I try to guide people in a process of reconstructing their sexual ethic based on their values. One that's congruent with their values and doesn't have to follow either hookup culture, since that's often what's offered to us as an alternative or this sexual ethic based on shame, which is purity culture.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 35:19

Yeah. What are some of those initial steps that you recommend to people who are beginning their journey of healing from this?

Camden: 35:26

Yeah, I think initial steps are always to recognize, like, and be aware to increase your awareness of, um, what purity culture is and of the ways it may have affected you. And then another initial step would be to connect with sources of support, whether that's a therapist that's trained in this area, or a coach or it's groups. Online or in person who can provide that empathy and support to you and make you feel like less alone? Like, you know, a lot of my clients, like I said to you earlier, like we speak, you and I might speak the same language and me and my clients do, but they might not know someone in their actual life that speaks the same language of, of purity culture. And so they feel a lot less alone when I tell them. Yeah, like this is not uncommon. Um, I've had other clients say this too, or, yeah, you're not alone. This, this is common in the research. Like, um, that can feel very validating.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 36:17

Yeah. it's funny because I, uh. I'm really into like all these different YouTubers who talk about these topics and occasionally there will be one who did not grow up in this and like literally can't wrap their mind around. They're like, I understand that these people believe this, but I don't understand why and I cannot articulate why, but I just know that it was the water I was swimming in growing up. and so I think it's, it is so useful to have other people around who. You know, can talk about it on the same level. And like, you can make references like to certain things like we did earlier. Like, you know, I kiss dating goodbye or, or whatever, the purity balls or whatever. And for people to have that, that contextual understanding of what that means,

Camden: 37:03

Right. So are these YouTubers saying like, they don't understand why someone would follow this or believe this, or,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 37:08

it's more so like, they're like, wow, that's wild. Can't believe people, people think this, And not in a judgmental way, but in a way of like, they're the outside looking in and they're like, that's just really wild. I, I never would've thought that or been taught that.

Camden: 37:25

Yeah. Yeah. And so they can't imagine the ways that it affects us then. Um, you know, it's the same thing when I watch a documentary on the Duggar family, you know, which is a, a. Just a community I did not grow up in. You know, that might seem really foreign to me, but once I watch it, I can, it makes sense of why these people might have turned out the way they did. Um, or like, I don't fear wearing something that's sleeveless like that, that's okay for me. And that's never something I've, I've worried about. But for somebody else. That might feel really foreign to them or really wrong to them. So much fear, um, that might bring up for them. So yeah, it's just putting ourself in other people's shoes and trying to see how it makes sense given their upbringing and the messages they internalized.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 38:08

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I recently read, uh, Jill Duggar's memoir

Camden: 38:11

Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 38:12

and having so many shared messages from childhood. I was like, so many of the things she said, I was like, oh yeah, I totally get that. Like, even though, you know, I wore pants, like I played sports, just, just a totally different perspective. Yeah.

Camden: 38:28

Yeah. Yeah. I really, I liked her documentary, and it helped me really understand what she went through and where she's still, how she's still healing. Um, yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 38:38

Do you differentiate, um, religious trauma and sexual shame, and along what lines?

Camden: 38:47

I think purity culture can be a form of religious trauma and, um, purity culture and sexual shame go hand in hand. I call shame the universal experience of purity culture because there's no one who comes outta purity culture with who doesn't have shame. Um, but certainly religious trauma can be broader. There's many other practices or beliefs or structures that can cause religious trauma, and that's a newer term for some people. But really it just means. Paying attention and noting, noticing your body's response to a particular religious practice or structure or belief system. Like if your body has a traumatic response, um, meaning it is your body's kind of recoiling, or you go into fight or flight mode. Um, I have many clients who have that kind of a response to sex in their marriage, like they're married in a healthy marriage, a loving spouse, they may say they've never been sexually abused, and yet they're, they'll tell me like, you know, why am I. Why is my body reacting like I've been sexually abused? Is there some sort of repressed trauma or something? And I'll say, you know, it can just be purity culture. It could just be that these messages have been so internalized that your body has a trauma response to the idea of sex. And so that can happen, um, you know, with other types of religious practices too. Um, yeah. So it's, it's a form of trauma. It's valid and there are, you know, therapists that are trained in it and can help you through it.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 40:12

Yeah. are there daily practices or reflections that you suggest for these people who are experiencing this?

Camden: 40:19

Yeah, I think a daily practice to start with is to pay attention and tune into your body, heart, mind, and soul. Like often we've been trained to ignore our body, kill the flesh and de deny your body. Or we've been trained that our heart is wicked and deceitful and emotions can't be trusted. And so being able to tune into these areas, um, notice how can I honor my body today and honor its pace or what would calm my mind today? What feels calming or how can I pay attention to and validate my emotions? Um, those are all questions and. For daily practice that you could ask yourself. I ask myself some version of those questions, you know, every day as I check in with myself and say, you know, what care do I need to, to give myself today? Um, because we've been taught to focus outside of ourselves, whether that's looking for answers or caring for others, but being able to also turn inward. And for me, as a six, that's good to be able to turn inward and listen to myself and not just look outside of myself for answers.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 41:19

yeah. Well, and I also think about, um. You know, the different intelligence centers and, and how we of the Enneagram and how we have these different responses. And so body types being 8, 9, 1, heart types, 2, 3, 4, and then mine types 5, 6, 7. And as a heart type, I think like a year ago I was in therapy and I realized like I don't ever really remember or recognize that I like have anything below like. Hip level like that I have legs. Do you know what I mean? Like, I forget sometimes. And just even the practice of sitting and, and breathing and like remembering like, okay, I have a full body here. Like it can be so helpful. And I think I've met a lot of mind types who are the same. Um, and like are like, I'm just ahead on a stick. Like I'm just.

Camden: 42:15

Yeah, I would say it's very easy for me to live in my head, not in the world of. Like fantasy or ideas, but more so in the world of logic and facts and plans. Um, very easy for me to do that. I'm least in touch with my body of the three centers. My body would be the, the least. Um. A familiar one to me. And so a practice of mindfulness meditation has also been really helpful to me. That's something I use in my therapy practice, somatic, which means like mind and body techniques to help us get in touch with the body and, and tune into what's going on inside my body. Like those have all been really helpful for me to start to tap into that center of intelligence more.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 42:55

Yeah. Yeah. So helpful. okay, so tell us a little bit about your book. Who is it for and where can we find it?

Camden: 43:03

the book is called Recovering from Purity Culture, and it's available wherever books are sold. Of course, Amazon Baker Books is my publisher. And who is it for? Is really anybody who grew up in purity culture and notices. the impact and wants to start to heal from the effects. I am a Christian, so I include a lot of, um, Christian kind of integrative strategies and tools too. So it's gonna be probably most applicable to clients who want a, um, a little bit of a faith-based perspective without being full of gender stereotypes and rigid. This is the one way, we definitely make space for, for other, For other perspectives. So, that's who the book is for. And yeah, I've been, it's been nice to connect with my readers and be able to share this more broadly than with just my clients.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 43:50

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I love that about books where you can just. Tell somebody, this is where you can find like this whole plan. but I'm definitely gonna pick it up as well because even though I don't share the same faith-based perspective, I think I can understand the language. Um, and so, being able to kind of dismantle some of those things, it's been a long time since I, have really felt like the stronghold of this concept, but I'm sure that it's still there. You know what I mean?

Camden: 44:19

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I've had people who didn't grow up, in, in religion say that they related to some of this too, and felt a lot of healing through it. And, and I've had people who. Don't share my faith or, or values or religious beliefs, but say like, the tools were still really helpful and could be applied. And, um, and that they appreciated my, um, openness to, to helping them figure out their own values. So, yeah, so that was my, my aim with the book was not to provide another, here's an expert telling you what you have to believe, but to help you figure it out for yourself.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 44:52

Yeah, for sure. which is so helpful, right? Because you know, a lot of those high control religious things say you can't figure it out for yourself. You have to listen to experts and you're turning that back onto your reader.

Camden: 45:04

Yes. That was my hope.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 45:06

how can listeners connect with you?

Camden: 45:08

Yeah, you can connect with me on Instagram or Facebook threads at Dr. Camden, and then my website is dr camden.com. That's Dr. Camden. Um, and yeah, you can check out my book and I also offer online coaching if you wanna look into that. And there's a free download on my website how your Enneagram type is affected by purity culture. So if you want that, um, that goes into more detail of what you and I talked about today.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 45:32

all that will be linked in the show notes too. Um, so before I let you go, two last questions. First one is, tell me about a book that has helped you refreshed you or shaped you in the last year. I.

Camden: 45:45

Well, it's hard to pick just one stuff because I'm a big reader. But as we're speaking about trauma and embodiment, I'm gonna mention, um, strong like Water by Andy Colbert. she is a trauma therapist and I have learned so much from her about trauma in the body and so many gentle healing practices, ways to regulate your nervous system. Um, so her book Strong Like Water, has been a, a great resource to me and one I recommend a lot.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 46:09

Cool. I will check that out. I have not read that one, so

Camden: 46:13

Do you follow her

Stephanie Barron Hall: 46:14

I do. Mm-hmm.

Camden: 46:15

online?

Stephanie Barron Hall: 46:16

Yeah, I really like her. and then tell me a piece of advice that has really stuck with you.

Camden: 46:20

Yeah, right now what I'm really focused on in my own growth and healing and work is. Re-parenting myself, like being this the healthiest parent that I can be for my two kids. So I think the advice that good parenting starts with you, it doesn't start with some. Tool or strategy or timeout or any kind of discipline like, um, or trick, um, mom hack. It really starts with you and being healthy yourself. And so that's something I'm, I'm always working on in myself. There's a lot to heal from when you grow up in, um, this kind of religious background. there's a lot that had to, has to be rethought as I think about how I wanna teach my kids and what I wanna model to them. But yeah, that's what came to mind.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 47:07

Cool. I love that. I think that's awesome. I mean, not that I know anything, but I did recently get, parenting from the Inside out by Dan Segal.

Camden: 47:15

Yes, I'm reading that right now.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 47:16

cool. Yeah, so I am excited to read that, in the coming months. So thank you so much for joining me. This has been really great, and I really hope everyone will connect with you because, I think this topic is so important.

Camden: 47:28

Mm-hmm. Thank you. I

Steph Barron Hall: 47:29

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify