Emily Kasriel 1:47

listen to yourself first. Because unless we do so, when we listen to someone else, we are actually not listening to them. We are listening to our own stuff. 'cause we all have like a family of shadows. and we project our stuff. Onto speakers, and we aren't reacting to them. We are reacting to our own shadows. So taking the time, especially before an important and or difficult conversation can be transformational, not only with our own shadows, but also to be open with what's our real agenda.

2:25

Hello and welcome to Enneagram in Real Life, the podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host, Stephanie Baron Hall, and I'm so excited to share today's episode with you. I'm interviewing Emily, cast Real, Who has had a distinguished career at the BBC for over two decades, including roles as an award-winning journalist, editor, and media executive. She developed the deep listening approach as a senior visiting research fellow At King's College Policy Institute in London, drawing on her experience as an accredited executive coach and workplace mediator. Previously, she's been a visiting fellow at. Side business school at Oxford University and a senior advisor to the School Foundation, she also holds a graduate degree from the University of Oxford and Syracuse University's Maxwell School of Citizenship and Public Affairs. And. As you might have gathered, this episode is not so much about the Enneagram, but it's in our any adjacent category, meaning that the Enneagram can point us where we wanna look for our next, you know, piece of inner work or where we want to grow, or something we wanna develop, but then we need real practical guidance on what to do to build those skills. And so today we're gonna be talking all about Emily's new book called Deep Listening, transform Your Relationships with Family, friends, and Foes. And we talked all about how most of us don't listen very well. We've heard a lot about how to listen actively or active listening, that concept, but Emily actually talks about deep listening and it's a bit of a different approach, but I think it's so useful and I really appreciated hearing from her about how she's kind of created this theory and this approach. Um, and how actually Nelson Mandela was an inspiration and teacher on this journey, so I hope you'll enjoy this episode wherein we discuss all sorts of things like conflict mediation and just developing a different way of relating with people, because as somebody who works so often with teams in corporate spaces, I see a lot of teams that don't listen very well, or teammates that, that don't hear each other very well, um, and have a hard time recognizing that. And I love Emily's approach and it's definitely something that I'm thinking about moving forward and something that I want other people to learn from and take away. Toward the end of our conversation today, Emily did walk me through her process and it's like a very distinct framework that she uses, And so I thought it would be really useful for all of us. To actually take something practical away from this. So make sure you check out the blog post that accompanies this podcast episode. The link will be in the show notes. If you can't find it, you can also go to nine types.co/blog and you'll be able to find the step-by-step framework that she shared as part of this episode. So make sure you check out Emily's information as well as her book, um, which will all be linked in the show notes. But again, her book is called Deep Listening. And without further ado, here's my conversation with Emily.

Stephanie Barron Hall 5:32

Well, Emily, welcome to the podcast.

Emily Kasriel 5:34

Uh, fantastic to be here and delighted to meet you, Stephanie, and all your listeners

Stephanie Barron Hall 5:39

Yeah, thanks so much. Um, I'd love to start with an introduction to your background and how you came to the work that you do now.

Emily Kasriel 5:48

Sure. So I've been at the BBC for quite some time, although doing things on the side. But what's great about working for a good big public organization like the BBC is not only do you get traveling around the world. Meeting fantastically interesting people. You also, I also trained and became an executive coach well over a decade ago, and a workplace mediator on the side. I had quite an unusual, flexible job. I was head of special projects, so this was all manner of exciting things that I dreamed up. I previously had been editor and producer of Arts Religion, ideas shows for the World, the US and for African shows, for African audience, and everything in between, but. Through my kind of crazy job as head of Special project, I became really interested in doing more impactful work, and that was actually partly from being coached myself before I became a coach. And so I was doing more getting colleagues across BBC News, and that's in English and 40 language, tv, radio, online, digital, everything to do more stories about solutions, not just problems. And because I wanted to try and. Get everyone to take up this idea. I decided we needed a big season and I've always been interested in conflict and conflict resolution, so I called it crossing divides. So I got everybody to tell stories about how people could come together across lines of race, class, religion, age, or politics rather than the conflict narratives. Us big media players so often tell. And in doing that, I had to brief colleagues. So like one day I had to brief 40 local radio producers about how to have these conversations. Um, because they were each in their own little local areas in Dorsa tour, in, you know, Northumberland or in London getting three local disputes and getting people together across these divides. And I realized I needed to know more. So I started doing research. I did another course in in conflict mediation with a solutions journalism network in Montana actually, and I started researching. First I had a gig at the LSC, the London School of Economics, and then at Kings College in London. And I talked a psychologists. And I talked to, um, mediators and workplace, uh, psychologists and a whole host of other people to find out what it would take to get people who think very differently, to actually listen to each other, because that's what we all face in our lives. It's not just people who are in a serious dispute. We often encounter. You know, situations where our listening is performative. We listeners sort of go through the motions. We don't really listen to understand with curiosity. So I ended up, friend of mine, connected me with her agent. We sold the book to Harper Collins, US uk, a Deep listening, transform Your relationship with family, friends, and Foes. I really like that and fo bit. And this is being published in the uk May 22nd, and in the US May 20, um, June 24th this year.

Stephanie Barron Hall 9:03

Wow. It's coming up so exciting.

Emily Kasriel 9:05

yeah, yeah, yeah. Speeding towards us.

Stephanie Barron Hall 9:07

Yes. That's so cool to hear that backstory of how this came to be because that is one thing that I love when I encounter new books where it's like, you've been using this work for a long time and practicing it, and so then you're able to write it down, but you have examples of how it works.

Emily Kasriel 9:24

Yeah, it was really great. And what was interesting, uh. That. For example, my son says, what about that story of you seeing President Mandela listen? And I said, oh yeah, that's a good idea. And it fact forms the introduction to my book because when I first arrived as a young reporter for the BBC in South Africa, I was in Job bur, and they said. There's a big story brewing in Pretoria, which is like one of the key capitals in South Africa, and loads of former soldiers of the former A NC armed wing, which was called in contrary, where Seaway were gathering, demanding to see the president. They were angry about their subservice food, their accommodation, and most of all, the humiliation are being bossed around by these white officers in what was an integrated defense force. Who were used to be the enemy, and we all waited for Mandela to arrive for hours and hours. And we watched the sky to see if his helicopter would arrive, and eventually it did. So we went to this sort of hastily erected podium to see what he had to say, but he wasn't there. And instead I found him walking among the soldiers and he said hello to one guy, and the guy said, oh, what's your name? So tell me, where do you live? Oh, I know Alexandra Township. Which street? Oh, I can picture that corner. So now tell me why you are here. And only after he spent well over an hour talking and listening to soldiers about their grievances, did he get on that podium and say, we have heard you. We are listening to your grievances. We are going to address them now. You need discipline. This is a new South Africa. Go back to your barracks. And they all went home. And it was funny, when my son reminded me of this story, I have a nice picture of me and Nelson Mandela in my bathroom at home and it, uh. It reminded me of it was a beautiful act of listening. 'cause often people who are in power don't listen to us. And all of us have been at situations in work where we feel powerless, for example, and we don't feel heard. And it can be so transformational to our wellbeing when we are heard. And that's one of the reasons I feel so passionately about deep listening because so many of us. Aren't really heard. You know, they're, so, when I ask people, when I do these trainings and I've done, you know, hundreds and hundreds, thousands of people in over a hundred countries, and I say, you know, can you think of a time when you were heard? And often they can't. And that feels so sad. And that kind of increases the, you know, as I see it, an epidemic of loneliness. And what we can do when we become great listeners is to listen to the people around us. As a starter to people at work and then also to to, you know, to colleagues and to even to strangers and even to people who think differently to us. And what can really liberate us to that possibility is understanding that by listening, we do not signal agreement. And to me that is really critical.

Stephanie Barron Hall 12:33

That is so important because I think that's something that I talk about. You know, when I. Work with people is to say, just because somebody's silent or because they're smiling and nodding, they're trying to convey that they're understanding, but that doesn't mean that they agree. So like, give them a moment to also like, share their perspective. Um, and I'd love to hear more from you about how you contrast this concept of deep listening from active listening, which we've all heard of, and we think, oh yeah, that's the way I'm supposed to be. How does deep listening compare to that?

Emily Kasriel 13:02

Actually, interestingly, The term active listening was created by Carl Rogers with a colleague who was this fantastic American psychologist, born at the very beginning of the 20th century. And he meant active listening. Pretty, I've drawn very, very closely on my work on deep listening from his. Unfortunately, in the business context, research is evidence that active listening is very instrumental. We listen long enough to kind of feel like we've done the listening. We say, yeah, I get you. I understand. It's performative. It's not genuine. We are not curious. We don't listen to ourselves first and figure out what have we got that might get in the way of some real thoughts by the speaker. And our own listening, and so it people sense it is not authentic. They feel that it is a kind of, okay tick box, done the listening. Now I'll tell you what you really should be doing, and therefore we leave feeling dismissed or used rather than fully heard.

Stephanie Barron Hall 14:04

Yeah, the whole listening to under or listening to respond versus

Emily Kasriel 14:07

Yeah, exactly. One person, a theologian called Jacqueline Bussey, coined it that we reload our verbal gun with ammunition ready to fire. And I think that's what a lot of us do far too often.

Stephanie Barron Hall 14:22

Yes, absolutely. I would love to hear a little bit more about. You know, your process, what you lay out in the book. Um, but before we go into that, I'm just wondering if you can share a little bit more about the context in which you see this being appropriate, because I've heard you say not only personal relationships and workplace relationships, but a more resilient society. So tell me more about that concept.

Emily Kasriel 14:45

Well, I think, I mean, we all know about polarization. In fact, when I was, you know, in the us um, I happened to be there working with the Atlantic Council on Inauguration Day. I thought a good opportunity, and I spent two days listening to Trump supporters tell me why they felt so passionately that they were flying all over the country to QR in the. Freezing cold to get into the Capital One arena, and it was bloody cold, as we say in the uk. And they knew from some of my questions that perhaps I wasn't the biggest Trump supporter. And yet one of them said to me after I heard her, she said, you know. What was really interesting about you is that you were really curious and I felt accepted as a person and that was so moving to me because that's what you want. You want people to feel heard. And what's interesting is that the research evidences both other research and indeed research that I've conducted. 'cause I thought, I'm not doing a thousand people in a hundred countries without getting this measured. So I reached out to academics. And the paper's just been published in that well-known bedtime read a Journal of Applied Social Psychology, not, but it was, you know, properly gone through peer review, which showed that when people felt truly heard and were deeply listened to, they. Became more open and they also became more willing to examine their own attitudes. And I think that's a real big incentive for all of us, that when we listen to people, people no longer feel on the defensive. They can reduce what Danielle Kahneman, uh said. He said, systems one and Systems two, systems one's the automatic sort of arguing way of thinking. And systems two is the much more considered. Uh, approach and it allows us to kind of all reduce our stress levels, both the speaker and the listener, and therefore we can be up in a place to really hear someone and then they don't feel the need to insist on their perspectives.

Stephanie Barron Hall 16:42

Yeah. Well, and I think that's so important and, um, you know, in our, I I, all of our societies have polarization, right? But you know. Myself, being an American, I, I just can't help but think about the situation that we've been in, especially over the last several years and seeing so much of this just contention and really avoidance of these topics. Um, and it's my friends who are really, really committed to, I. Asking questions and like understanding and processing through and saying like, yeah, I have a different perspective, but like, I understand how you got there. Those are the people who are having the best conversations and who could actually help inspire change, um, in themselves and in others because we have to have those conversations.

Emily Kasriel 17:30

that's such a beautiful point. And what's exciting is once we start doing so, it often feels very risky. But in fact, Nick Epley at the University of Chicago did research that when we talk to strangers, we. Often fear it will be weird and uncomfortable. And actually when we dare to talk to strangers at a bus stop, you know, queuing up in the supermarket, if you don't do an online shop, you know, we still have opportunities to meet people face to face in many places. It makes a huge difference to our own wellbeing because ultimately we are social animals. We want to connect. And when you get a smile from someone, it could be so beautiful. I mean, I was in the pharmacy the other day picking up, uh uh, some drugs from my daughter. And I spoke to this woman and she was saying that, she said something really like small, that was it. I couldn't remember my daughter's birthday. And it was crazy 'cause I got confused and I thought she was like one rather than 23 or something. Yeah. And the woman just laughed and laughed at me and I said, yeah, it's funny, you know, we all mess up. And she said to me. She was sitting on a chair. She said, yeah, you know, I'm worried about age. And then she talked about the fact that she thought that her grandmother, she might outlive her because she obviously had some disease. And then she started talking about it, and then she started crying and she apologized for crying, but she was obviously. So need to be heard, and I didn't judge her. I didn't try and make her better, which is what we often try and do and say, don't worry dear. I'm sure it's okay. Well, it's not okay. Actually. She feels the passing of years was really challenging for her, but being able to accept her and allow her. Uh, to share these feelings. A total stranger prompted by a silly mistake I made. We had this connection and I left feeling like I'd been able to help somebody. And we all know how much we enjoy helping all of us. We want to feel needed and that we can do some good in the world, and it can feel so powerful and it can be in the strangest unexpected situations.

Stephanie Barron Hall 19:32

What do you think? Because to me it seems like the root of like the fixing and the avoidance is our, our own inability to be with those big feelings. How do you deal with that when you're working with people, you know, throughout this time period that you've been doing this work?

Emily Kasriel 19:51

I mean, I think it's a really good point. I would say when people are in trauma, like many people have said to me, can you deal, go to Israel or go to Gaza and deal with people there who've got, you know, in the midst of conflict. I think people in the midst of conflict are not able to deeply listen to others. They feel, you know, their survival instinct is. Kicked in and they feel so traumatized that they're in no space to listen to others. But I think people adjacent to conflict and America as yet, I mean, obviously some people are feeling a little traumatized by the result of some of these, uh, legislation if you know, if you are a deported immigrant and so forth. But if you are not at the very sharp end of what's going on, can you. See it in yourself, and it might well be with somebody in your family. I mean, I know how, you know, I have a lot of American friends and how many of them have families who are divided have old friends from their hometown in their home state who are, who think differently to them, and what can they do to accept the person? Which doesn't mean accepting their ideas necessarily, but it may mean nuancing their own ideas when they truly are curious. And as you say, a good starter question is what in your life has led you to believe what you do? 'cause we all got backstories. I told you a bit about my backstory. Um, or at least some of it in the intro. And when you hear the backstory, other people start to make more sense.

Stephanie Barron Hall 21:17

Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. I, I just can, I'm also just imagining all of these like. Challenging conversations that we have because they feel so emotionally charged

Emily Kasriel 21:28

Hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall 21:28

and working on my own ability to allow people to have their big feelings, you know what I mean? Um, or like, especially in that moment in the pharmacy where you didn't fix that woman's, you know, feelings. You just let her have them. Um, and that can be a gift and I, but I think it takes something that we don't always practice, which is the space within ourselves.

Emily Kasriel 21:52

Yeah, it's such a beautiful way of putting it because we have to be centered, and as I talk you through my process of deep listening, being centered, having that space as you so beautifully put it in ourselves to be able to accept some either feelings of anger, feelings of fear, you know, I'm actually about to start a course in, or a introduction of a course at the Tavistock Center in London in Psychoanalytical psychotherapy. And as part of that. You need to go and do volunteering, and I'm signing up and going for my introduction to something called the Listening Space to see if it's right for me, which welcomes people who are at the edge of taking their own life to support them. I don't know quite whether I'm gonna be strong enough to be able to be with people who are supremely vulnerable, but I'm interested to see if I can, because to me that would be hugely meaningful. But we don't all have to do that, you know? But we can be with our kids and our parents and lots of people around us and all of us go through difficult things. All of us are traumatized at some point. A depressed at some point, challenged at some point. I don't think any of us is like Supreme kind of, well maybe you are if you're a Supreme ed month, but not many of us and all of us are

Stephanie Barron Hall 23:05

No.

Emily Kasriel 23:06

challenges and have undergone lots of different types of trauma.

Stephanie Barron Hall 23:10

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I'm wondering if you could share your eight step method, um, and these actual steps that you've put together to help people reconnect through this authentic communication.

Emily Kasriel 23:21

Sure. So the first step of deep listening is, um, create the space. And this means, first of all, psychological space of safety. So if you are about to give feedback or hear some difficult conversation at work, and there's an open plan office or a glass office and people can see you. Ain't gonna feel safe for the speaker and what feels safe very much varies. So you need to put yourself in your speaker's shoes to think about what would be a safe place for them. I mean, some woman told me that when her kid came home from school and was just refused to go to school ever again, climbed under her bed. And the mother joined her daughter under the bed because that was her safe space. Or another person told me their kid, you know, wanted to sit in his bedroom surrounded by his toys when they listened to the kid. That was their safe space. So we all have different safe spaces and think about what's safe for your speaker, and then it's thinking about. Uh, you know, still step one thinking about, um, the acoustic environment because if it's a noisy cafe where you've got the sounds of other speakers which drown out your, your speaker or you know, something, that's why posh restaurants have flowing curtains and nice comfortable seating. But in your own home, you know, the wood is really good. Bit of an echo, not too much an echo, um, that is important. And then the lighting, sharp overhead, blue white lights. Not so good, much better. Softer yellow with longer wavelengths, lights that bounce off the wall, you can change the lighting 'cause it makes us feel more relaxed. Um, I remember when I gave birth to my eldest and I went to the public hospital here and they had this horrible blue white strip lighting and the midwife switched that off and she put on. The nice sort of yellow orange incubator, baby incubator, like just for me. So I could do the kind of birthing business. I was in a water birth, I was very lucky. Um, you know, and feel more relaxed, you know, more like a person, not a patient. So it's getting those environments right and then really a place even more so where the speaker can feel cherished. So I was in Japan spending time with tea ceremony practitioners, so they think very carefully, like if I'm handing you a cup of tea, I will rotate my mug. Exactly to have this, having to say, Papa, it's my husband's. But you know, the bit that will be, make you feel more cherished. And they have 72 seasons and they get a treat, which fits that exact season. And a fresh leaf, like from the balcony to put on top of the water to make, bring nature inside. So that's a, you know, ways that we can inspire us or put on your, your partner's favorite music track if you're gonna be really listening to them and helping them unwind. That's step one. So step two is listen to yourself first. Because unless we do so, when we listen to someone else, we are actually not listening to them. We are listening to our own stuff. 'cause we all have like a family of shadows. And when we. You know, let's say we are disproportionately fearful of meeting the ENG boiling engineer who's supposed to sort out our central heating. It's not just because we might have no heating for three months and get freezing, it's because he might represent something in our own psyche and we project our stuff. Onto speakers, and we aren't reacting to them. We are reacting to our own shadows. So taking the time, especially before an important and or difficult conversation can be transformational, not only with our own shadows, but also to be open with what's our real agenda. Um, I was talking to a friend about their, uh, younger friend, about their, you know, conversation with their boyfriend and saying, you know, what do you really want from this? You know what's, what's at stake here? What do you really, so at least if you are clear in your own mind about what's important to me, it might well be that the relationship itself is more important than the important angry things that you think you have to say. So taking that time before those conversations is critical. And part three is being present. And you spoke so beautifully about having the space inside us. How can we cultivate that space inside us so that we can. Convey a space for somebody else, not only to share their stuff, but also to think new thoughts. And that's what's so exciting about deep listening, is that we can provide the opportunity for people around us to create ideas that they never even imagined. That's what I know from being an executive coach, and it's so exciting when you see people, you've got what you think is your fab solution. You provide the space for them settled, open, even in like a busy BBC meeting room. And suddenly who, they'll go silent on you. They'll look up and they'll have new thoughts that they never before imagined. And if you have an ongoing relationship, as I did with my coaching clients, you saw them transform and that they, uh, Carl Rogers spoke very movingly about the fact that we are all in a process of becoming. And that is so beautiful. We are not fixed to the person we were last year, last week, or last night. We can all change and deep listening provides the other person the space to think new thoughts, to become the best person they could possibly be, and to overcome challenges in ways we would've never anticipated. So, you know, I've been on various silent retreats as part of my meditation practices. I love the Waking Up app. Uh, there's lots of really great, um, meditations. And speakers to inspire you in different ways. There's so many people. Tara Brack is fantastic. I also interviewed for my program La Kelly and John Kaba Zinn, who's also endorsed my book, um, who's a big mindfulness compan, who I've worked with at the BBC and um, and been inspired and gone to his meditation. So there's a lot of different ways, and I was inspired when I was heard by First Nation Canadians and they just sat there. I was talking about some of my own family trauma. And I, they didn't try and connect their trauma with mine. They just. Allowed me and accepted me. And that on some measure allowed me to accept myself and it was so beautiful. So I'm very inspired when I just think of the way that they see us and the earth and the wind and the trees and ancestors and future progeny as all being collected together. And it's in that space that they provide the space for somebody to be heard. And that's really beautiful and inspiring for me. So step four is the qualities you project to your speaker. And I always say I start with a gateway of curiosity. 'cause if you could be truly curious about them, they can then tell you something. Like your neighbor can say, oh yeah, my daughter, she's training to be a teacher. Suddenly you've got a foothold into their world because they've shared something with you and you can then become more empathetic. Really what a beautiful thing to be doing. Tell me about that. You know, tell me more. Always good say, tell me more. Not tell me. Tell me what else? 'cause you go deeper rather than just stay at surface. So curiosity is great. And from that comes empathy. Also respect. And that again is respect for the person rather than for any specific thing that they have done or deed or passing sin that they've committed. You are respecting them for their humanity, which we all share. You know, and then, um, the other, the last part of the, of the qualities that we project on our speaker is being non-judgmental. It's really, I wouldn't even say non-judgmental. We are, have evolved to be judgmental. We need to tell friend or fo, you know, friend from foe or we wouldn't be safe. We need to know the berries from the tigers. But, and poison berries from healthy berries. So we need to make judgments and we do that. Otherwise, I wouldn't know if I sat on my seat, it wasn't made of jelly and I would fall straight through, but we can become aware of the judgments we make and especially important. For example, if you're interviewing somebody, you know, are you making judgments the way they look, the way they sound, what does it reflect about you, where they come from and how can we self-correct when we become aware we don't have to share them?

Stephanie Barron Hall 31:21

Mm-hmm.

Emily Kasriel 31:22

So step five is the gaze, and that's what makes it so hard to talk online. 'cause now I'm looking at you by looking straight at the camera, but I can't see your face or your smile, so I don't feel so connected. They are now evolving cameras to sit in the middle of screens, which is useful. So the gaze is important and there's so much research. I mean, if you're listening to a First Nation elder, perhaps from that community, don't look at them in the eye. There's certain communities where it's not acceptable. the gaze is such a critical way in the way we connect, but it's not an angry fuko like gaze, which makes people feel insecure and worried and upset. It's much more a warm, embracing gaze that we talked about, using those qualities of curiosity, respect, empathy, and without judgment. And what happens? You've got this gaze window and both, both our eyes connect together. That's the case window And then you as a speaker, you might wander off, but because my eyes are on you, you'll feel safer and go on a more interesting journey and then you'll return and will connect again. And if you find I'm not there, you, the research shows that you will repeat yourself or get lost in thought because I'm not connected to you. So the gates is so important in that step five. I also look at other ways we can, um. Use our body language and the look at the body language of the speaker to understand more about what they're saying and feeling and what they're not saying. So we know about, you know, if I sit looking crossed arms with you, it'd be defensive rather than open. And you can see my hands. I mean, most people know about simple body language and about slightly leaning in, in order to appear interested like you matter. Um, and that's important. You wanna do, you can do nods but keep them kind of gentle, not too vigorous 'cause it's okay fed up. I've had enough now time's up, you know, so it's getting that right and making it authentic for you. When it comes to reading your speaker, there was a piece of research in, uh, in 19. 69, I think, I can't remember, 1970, which said that nonverbal, that verbal communication was not so important. What was much more important was facial expression. This is not true at all. This has been completely disproved and said to be nonsense, even by the researcher, but is often quoted in a lot of communication research still all over online by a researcher called Moravian in California. So what the research seems to indicate is that, of course what we say is super important words are important facial expressions. I might be really smiley, but that's 'cause I'm about to snag the last donut on the plate. Not because I'm really happy or I'm looking anxious, but it's not because you've said something awful. It's because I'm wondering how the hell am I gonna get home in time for the game? You know? So facial expressions. People can be happy or sad even if you get that right for different reasons. That's tough. Gestures not very helpful unless you're speaking a foreign language or you say, oh, that river was that high, and you point, that can be great. But what is important is tone of voice. And that's why sometimes on a voice only call, we find it easier to understand what the person is saying and feeling and thinking rather than in a face-to-face call. 'cause we get, um, obscured by people's faces and that even though we feel connected, which is great, we, I. Sometimes know less about what they're really feeling. So step six is hold the silence because silence is so exciting. So many people fear silence. And in the book, which I also illustrate by the way, which is really fun 'cause I like drawing, and I thought if I'm doing a book, I'm going to illustrate it. Um, so I've got a picture of nine types of silence 'cause there's a beautiful poem by Paul Goodman. Can I just read it about the nine types of silence? It's very beautiful. He says There is the dumb silence of slumber or apathy, the sober silence that goes with a solemn animal face. The Fertile Silence of Awareness pasturing the soul when new thoughts emerge. The alive silence of alert perception ready to say this. This, the musical silence that accompanies absorbed activity. The silence of listening to another speak, catching the drift, and helping him be clear. The noisy silence of resentment and self-recrimination, loud and sub vocal speech, but su to say it. Baffled Silence. The silence of peaceful accord with other persons, or communion with the cosmos. And I think that gives us a sense of the different types of silence. And when people fear silence, they often fear a, a kind of exploitative, intimidating silence rather than an empowering. Silence of space with all the qualities that we talked about earlier. And um, often I tell people, and I can make you the listeners a suggestion, just try three to five seconds of silence after the person has finished speaking. 'cause you'll often find. And you've gotta learn to be comfortable. 'cause it feels bloody awkward at the beginning. You'll often find that they'll think new thoughts and it also gives you the time to make sense of what they've said. And of course, silence is the opposite of interrupting. We're all so keen to interrupt. I used to be such a bad interrupter. I still am at times because we think we're helping the other person. We are helping complete their sentence. We're helping them think of something that was on the edge of their thinking, but we. Ah, can do it quicker and save time. And in fact, what we do is we are stealing from them their time to think.

Stephanie Barron Hall 37:00

Hmm.

Emily Kasriel 37:01

So it's actually very damaging, interrupting, and it's hugely arrogant because we think, you know, by interrupting, it's like what I have to say next is more important than what you have to think. And knowing that and also hearing people say things that I would've never imagined when I give them that space, really has helped me in my journey to stop being such an interrupter and to learn to be comfortable with silence. But I don't always, I should say about this whole deep listening stuff, as my family will tell you, I'm still very much a work in progress. So step seven is about reflecting back. Now on your active listening courses, you pick up the last thing the person has said. You parrot back a few words, and that's that. This is the opposite of deep listening, reflection. In deep listening, you are really trying to encapsulate the very core of what the person has said. What has not been said but is important to them and the emotions. 'cause if you don't reflect back the emotions, they will not feel heard. And this is quite hard to do. Sometimes you can reflect back in silence. Sometimes you can just pick out one critical word I. And sometimes you might talk about what is, um, harmonic, what is the kind of meta reflections? What are they saying that leads to the same conclusion or what's discordant like in music? They say, on one hand you talk about your intense love for your mother. And on the other, I'm hearing you say you are quite resentful. Is that right? And it's always offered with a spirit of humility because the other person, um. Can then, uh, you know, be free to say, yeah, you know, you haven't quite got it. But they, by saying what it is not, they helps them clarify in their own mind and you to understand them more clearly. So I think that's really exciting. And then state step eight is the deeper narrative. It's really using your. Third year to use a term coined by psychoanalyst who is a pupil of Sigmund Freud to your Do Reich, and he called it your third ear. And I've done a picture of it with a third ear painted in the middle of the chest. And I use like my subconscious that I trust to listen to your subconscious and again, offer it with humility. Might not be right for every occasion. Certainly in a professional context, you've gotta be a little wary, but it enables you to also. You know, really tune into your speaker's values and their deeper needs. And I should just say there were a lot of ethical issues, which I'd outline in the book around deep listening. People often share more than they perhaps wanted to. Again, in a work context, you need to sometimes say to them, wait a minute. Are you sure you want to continue here? You need to contract. You need to be fair. You need to keep it confidential. And sometimes you may hear more than you are ready to bear. And there you need to keep yourself spa safe. And that's really important. You, if you don't feel you can take it, you need to have a break or to refer the person to more help. Now, would you like us to do a deep listening demonstration?

Stephanie Barron Hall 40:04

Sure. That'd be great.

Emily Kasriel 40:06

Yeah. So if I ask you, Stephanie, Let me think. Tell me about a time you felt truly heard, or if you can't think of one a time when you would've liked to have felt really heard.

Stephanie Barron Hall 40:21

Okay, sure. So, um, I can tell you both actually. I am pregnant, so I am expecting this summer and, um, my family history. We have a long history of having gigantic babies and my husband was also quite a large. Baby. and so of course I have this fear about shoulder dys, socia, um, in particular. And you know, so I'm like researching and looking up the different things and my doctor had mentioned it at one point, so I'm just like worried. And I was telling my husband that I was worried and he was kind of like. Trying to gauge, is this just a thing that you're worried about that everyone is, or is there a particular reason that you're worried? And I really did not feel heard. So the next

Emily Kasriel 41:18

No, let's just stop there. Let's just stop there for a sec. So I'm hearing you say that you are pregnant and you are due to have a baby and congratulations and you have this family history that there's a bit of you, there's a bit of proud of it, of having these ginormous babies, but there's also a fear because you know there's certain conditions which it leads to. And this is real for you. You are carrying this baby pregnancy, you know, towards a outcome which is all being well, a delivery of a healthy baby. And it is. Your husband also was a big baby, and it's important to you from him that he really gets this. And when you talked about it to him and he just put it into a binary, is this it or is this more important? You felt dismissed. Is that right?

Stephanie Barron Hall 42:12

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, and I felt like the insinuation was, you're just being a little silly. You're just being anxious to be anxious. No need for that. Not that he said any of that. That's just how I felt. Yeah.

Emily Kasriel 42:31

So it felt as if. He didn't take your concerns seriously. Is that, is that,

Stephanie Barron Hall 42:40

Yeah.

Emily Kasriel 42:41

and that's important to you because it's real for you?

Stephanie Barron Hall 42:46

Yeah. It's real for me. And also, um. I like to feel prepared as much as I can, and childbirth is one of those things that you don't get to prepare. I mean, you prepare, but like you don't get to choose a lot. Like it happens how it happens. And, uh, I get a little bit anxious that, you know, we might go into that situation and he might not be prepared either. Where I've said, I'm anxious about this thing, and he's never thought of it. So he's not prepared, you know?

Emily Kasriel 43:21

And so it's not only an emotional thing, it's also. Kind of important to you because you are working in childbirth, which is an uncontrollable process. You feel you and your husband as a partnership together need to be, give the most knowledge and the most, um, much as you can. And it's not a insignificant worry, which is how you felt a bit when you had that conversation.

Stephanie Barron Hall 43:51

Yeah. And I also think it's, uh, as the birthing parent, you're the one who bears a lot of the weight of doing all the research and finding all the things, planning and all that

Emily Kasriel 44:05

So let's, let's just stop that kind of role play How did you feel about that conversation?

Stephanie Barron Hall 44:11

Good. Yeah. Um, I think I feel heard and listened to and I felt a little bit like, sorry for throwing Brandon under the bus, um, but also. The next morning we had a very, he and I had a very similar conversation, where I said, I really didn't feel heard. And then he was like, oh, okay, let's try that again then. and I think that feels really important to be able to revise those conversations.

Emily Kasriel 44:41

Yeah, if we are in a state and we have a good, strong relationship and to be able to say not feeling hurt because you know, on some level we all want somebody else to understand us in all our emotions with our whole self, and it feels so good. When they can do that. And I thought, I've done another picture in the book of somebody being in somebody else's head in with lots of different facial expressions because we want to all be heard with our whole selves, and that's why it's so powerful and it's conduc. So much to enhance relationships with couples, with children, with parents, because it's understanding and accepting our complexity and contradictions. And sometimes the fact that life isn't solvable. There's no answer to you having a big baby. That's what you may well have, but you know, there's no magic pill. But you can be better prepared. And it's almost more, not even that, it's you wanna be heard because this is important to you right now.

Stephanie Barron Hall 45:43

And I do think that, that in my experience, and I don't know if this has come up in your, your research, but, um, there's a part of it where it diffuses a lot of the pent up emotion, right? Because, um, once you feel heard, then it, it doesn't feel so big and scary anymore.

Emily Kasriel 46:01

Yeah, exactly. Because when we have all those sometimes crazy thoughts in the middle of the night and when, if we are lucky enough to have a close partner to share them with in the morning, they can really help us, um, by giving them some perspective sometimes. But even without saying anything, just simply being heard can be so powerful for wellbeing.

Stephanie Barron Hall 46:23

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I'm wondering if there is like one. Little tool or one little resource or, or something that people can start to apply. You know, you've given us, you know, the, the eight action steps and so much, so much of it is really just like changing your own stance in a way, toward the other person, right. To be more curious and empathetic. But what is one place that we can start if we wanna start being practicing deep listening?

Emily Kasriel 46:53

I think it's watching ourself when we fall into the listening traps, when we get caught into proving somebody's wrong. When we get caught in trying to solve and fix, and then telling ourself, reminding ourselves to go. Back into being curious, you know, what is it that's really driving the other person. So it allows us to get outta that reactive mode and gives us the opportunity and in order to do that, a breath, a simple breath, like when you see yourself getting all bent up and angry, breathing in. And breathing out and taking that minute, even a few seconds sometimes can help settle ourselves to be open to what the other person has to say, and they will sense that too. And suddenly all new things between the two of you are possible and never felt possible before.

Stephanie Barron Hall 47:50

I think that's such a gift that we can give each other as well because, um, you know, I hear from a lot of people who are like, I just don't feel understood and I think that people tell me they're understanding me and they're not. And I can tell, and I really appreciate this practice as one that can help us understand more and even understand ourselves better because we can. If we're slowing things down, we can recognize like, oh, this is triggering something inside me, and what, what's that about? Let me think about that later, after I'm, after this conversation. But

Emily Kasriel 48:23

E Exactly right. It's, you say it so beautifully and it, I detail that in my book is that listening to ourselves first, I mean, sometimes if we get these shadows, we can take them for a walk and we can say out loud in nature or somewhere private in a room, what's really going on? Why are you feeling so angry? And let that person have a big shout, and you'll find all sorts of amazing, interesting things. And once it's out there, it's not so toxic.

Stephanie Barron Hall 48:47

Yeah. Well if, if we're all out here shouting the forest, I guess we can blame you for it.

Emily Kasriel 48:53

Yeah, I'm happy to take the blame. I'm very happy to do that. I'm.

Stephanie Barron Hall 48:58

So where can people find your book?

Emily Kasriel 49:00

Well, the book is being published by Harper Collins, so you can get a copy of it on Amazon or in any bookstore That's good about Harper Collins great distribution network. So that's very exciting. And that is on the 24th of June. But if you pre-order, that's even better. 'cause apparently pre-orders are. Super important, and I really genuinely want more people to read the book because I'm motivated to try and do something to combat the twin crises of polarization and loneliness. So if you pre-order and that excites the bookstores and they think it's more popular and get more people to read it, then we can do something to make a dent in these real crises that we have in our, in our society. Um, and if you wanna know more about me, you can find out more about me on my website, emily kasriel.com. That's Emily E-M-I-L-Y-K-A-S for sierra RIE l.com. Or uh, or follow me on LinkedIn.

Stephanie Barron Hall 49:56

Perfect. Um, okay. I have my final two questions that I ask everyone. First one is, tell me about a book that has helped you refreshed you or shaped you in the last year.

Emily Kasriel 50:07

So I have just not quite finished this book that my son recommended me, and it's called Orbital by Samantha Harvey. And it's won, uh, various prizes and it's the most beautiful but very short book. About a spacecraft, about six individuals who spend time on this spacecraft. And the woman I don't think's ever been, hasn't been on a spacecraft, but they look at the earth with such love and preciousness, and we know that if you see somebody. Loving another thing or a person, you also are more likely to feel love for that thing. And they have such emotive feelings 'cause they have to cope with like loads of sunsets and sunrises every day. And they scoot over bits of Alaska or Europe or bits of the world or see a typhoon devastating bits of the Philippines, but from above. And they're in this weird little metallic capsule and yet they are so connected. To the wonder of the Earth, and it's really beautiful and it's really short and it's uplifting. I recommend it highly.

Stephanie Barron Hall 51:12

That sounds fantastic. I love it. I'll definitely have to check that one out. Um, okay. Final question. Tell me a piece of advice that has really stuck with you.

Emily Kasriel 51:22

You don't have to get it right. You know, sometimes we put such pressure on ourselves to be like a perfect listener, and we need to be curious and nonjudgmental and compassionate to ourself and allow us to be in a journey of becoming rather than think that we've gotta get it all right at first or all the time.

Stephanie Barron Hall 51:44

Yeah, I think that's so important too. And um. You know, you mentioned earlier that you don't always get it right. You know, ask your kids or whatever. And I think that is that old adage of we write the books that we are meant to read in a sense. And I, I love that example of, of being here and practicing it and also knowing like there is space to get it wrong. Maybe revise that conversation later. Um, whatever you need to do.

Emily Kasriel 52:11

Yeah. That's so beautiful. Thank you so much. I've so enjoyed this conversation, Stephanie. It's been really beautiful. Thank you.

Stephanie Barron Hall 52:17

Thanks so much for being here.

Steph Barron Hall 52:19

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify