1:54

Hello and welcome to Enneagram in Real Life, the podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host, Stephanie Baron Hall, and on today's episode I'm talking with author, consultant, and teacher Sandra Smith. So a little bit about Sandra before we get started. Sandra has over 24 years of teaching experience, and weaves her background in business and non-profits with her theological education to offer practical and compassionate exploration of the Enneagrams nine types, an accredited international Enneagram Association professional, and certified in the narrative Enneagram tradition, Sandra began teaching the Enneagram in 2001, inviting curiosity and compassion to guide the inward turn and exploring the foundational question, who am I? Her understanding of the nine types has evolved over the years through her work in corporations, nonprofits, faith communities, as well as with individuals. Sandra co-created and co-hosts the podcast Heart of the Enneagram that explores dimensions of the nine unique Enneagram perspectives through interviewing guests of all nine types and co-authored his companion book, heart of the Enneagram, a companion for deepening personal and spiritual growth. Her new book, the Enneagram, mapped to Your Deeper Self. Living Beyond Your Type is now available by Hampton Roads Publishing and it came out last year. Learn more about her work by visiting her website. Alchemy Works events.com or follow her on Instagram at Sandra Smith. Alchemy Works in this episode, I had a really fun time talking with Sandra. She is a type eight and she talks a lot about the transformative role the Enneagram has played in her personal growth and how she now teaches the system as a map toward presence and inner freedom rather than just a typing tool. And so we explored how we work with clients and teams and how to utilize other points on the map, so not just our own type, but other points as well, and how embodied presence can open the doors to deeper truth. Toward the end of our conversation, Sandra also graciously offered type specific practices from her book to help listeners move beyond their ego habits. I really hope you'll enjoy this episode in true eight fashion, it was to the point and practical. I felt like we packed in a ton of information in a short period of time. So I really hope you enjoy it. And without further ado, here's my conversation with Sandra Smith.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 4:18

Well, Sandra, welcome to the podcast.

Sandra Smith: 4:20

I'm so happy to be here, Steph. Thanks for inviting me.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 4:24

Of course. And I'm excited to talk with you a little bit because we were just chatting, sharing a little bit about, you know, the, your background with the Enneagram and I'd love to just begin there. So can you share with us a little bit about how you found the Enneagram, um, and how long you've been working with it and those sorts of things?

Sandra Smith: 4:44

Sure. The first sentence in the introduction to my new book says, In the summer of 1991, A t shirt changed my life. So yeah, and it's also true that summer, um, I had begun a study of theology at Emory University in Atlanta, so I had moved down there from. My home in Asheville and decided I wanted to head west for the summer and my faculty advisor was on the board of Ring Lake Ranch, a spiritual retreat center in the Wyoming wilderness and said, can you give 10 weeks to go and be on staff? So, of course, who could say no to that? And one summer, one day that summer, I walked into the dining hall and Sister Agnes, a sister of Loretta from Chicago was there. With a t shirt on and it said, Hi, I'm a one and I went up to her and said, Sister Agnes, that must be the best. How can I be a one as well? And she left a book and I'll tell you, Steph, and reading, uh, I just gobbled it down and immediately typed myself as a three. I had been in sales for a while, was competitive, high energy, and thought I was a three. And it wasn't until years later when I actually, uh, traveled to my first Enneagram intensive with Helen Palmer and David Daniels, I sat on the three panel. But when the eight panel got up the next day, I could not stay in my seat. I just couldn't believe it. So, you know, I had looked at behavior only. And that's what a lot of us do because I've found over the 25 years I've been teaching this that you know, we're not accustomed to going beneath behaviors. And so then it all fell into place for me. And it's like that gut punch they say you get when you find your type. Um, I remember reading the chapter on type 8 in that book and I thought, gosh, that's terrible, who'd want to be that? So I chose three, but. Actually, uh, there's some lovely, tender hearted aids of which most aids are. We're just afraid to show it.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 7:10

Yeah. I totally agree because I have a few eights in my life who are those lovely, tenderhearted people. I love eights. Um, and as a three myself, sometimes I'm like, darn it. I wish that I could be an eight. Um, and I think we all kind of have that. Perspective at times, like wanting to be something a little bit different. Um, and how do you navigate that as you're teaching The part about, you know, who would want to be that type or, you know, I want to be something different.

Sandra Smith: 7:44

Well, you know, when I teach the Enneagram, I do teach the Enneagram system as a map. And once we have our type, That's just the starting point, because I see the Enneagram as a map much more than a typing system. So, as I say on, um, the podcast I co host, Heart of the Enneagram, to not use the map is like to take a hike to it, and you get to a trailhead, you find the beginning. But you stop there. And so once we know our type, well that's the entry point into the map of your EcoStruxure's automatic patterns. Now, that is powerful. It's complex. But that map tells me how I trip myself up. You know, Steph, when I work with organizations, Uh, HR tends to love this system because employees, when they have a grievance, They get the same grievance over and over because they're stuck in a pattern and the Enneagram identifies that pattern. And so, you know, when I'm teaching these days, and my teaching has changed over those 25 years, I, I begin by making sure folks know that we're not our type. That's not the whole story of us. And so the title of my book is, The Enneagram map to your deeper self living beyond your type. And so we get stuck in these patterns that were there by say age 7. And they become pretty, pretty solid neuropathways. And, um, it can be discouraging and despairing at first. And then you realize, wait a minute. This is a habit. These are patterns. I can use this map to help myself shift behaviors and grow. So, of course, type doesn't change, but it sure gives us the lay of the land to shift, uh, limiting behaviors. And it's really, it's really about freedom, isn't it? To be free from these limiting patterns that, you know, have some, um, advantages at times, but it's when we overuse.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 10:04

Mm

Sandra Smith: 10:05

So, you know, each type has great strengths, but if we're not awake, we'll overuse them. Mm hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 10:12

I really appreciate this image of the Enneagram as a map as well, because, um, Um, I mean, similar to you sometimes when I'm working with teams, I say, what is the feedback that you've gotten, over the years, you know, and, and a lot of the time a one we'll say something like, you know, my manager's always telling me I'm too hard on myself.

Sandra Smith: 10:33

Mm hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 10:34

Things like that. Right. So we get the same feedback over and over. Um, but I'm curious for you, and this is just something that's like coming to me. So if you don't want to talk about this, that's fine, but, um, For you, so say you have a client who's working with the Enneagram, they know their type well, and they're really, you can just sense they're not in their core type. They're somewhere else on the map.

Sandra Smith: 11:00

Ah,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 11:01

Um, how do you navigate that and help them to, to see that? Or, or do you do it that way in that kind of reverse sort of way

Sandra Smith: 11:09

all right, so making sure I hear what you're asking. If I'm working with someone who thinks they're one type, and I'm getting a sense that they may lead with another type. I say lead because we're not our type. How do I navigate that?

Stephanie Barron Hall: 11:25

Um, I'm more so thinking like, so I'll use myself as an example. So I'm a three. Um, but there are times in my life, and I think I've been in kind of one of those spaces where other things are happening and I'm seeing so many more nine behaviors from myself, right? And so then to me, I'm, as I'm imagining that I'm thinking, Oh, like let's look on the map, you know, here I am over at nine. What do I do? Yeah. Yeah. That

Sandra Smith: 11:57

Yeah. So those two connecting lines for each type and the wings I call resource points. And here's how I would say it, and this is a teaching of Sandra Maitre's, who's now my teacher in the Diamond Approach School, where I've studied for a few years. She uses the terms heart point and defended point. So, if I'm present in my body and grounded, and my body feels expansive, probably my heart is open. If I'm constricted and tight and bracing, my heart is closed. It's defended. So when the heart is defended, we really aren't the gifts of all of those four types aren't accessible to us. And we're overusing our own types strengths, but when my heart is open and my body's expansive, then I, you as a three, then have balanced use of your own gifts and you have access. to the strengths of type nine and six and two and four. And so often when I'm doing workshops on the resource points, Steph, I'll say, you know, look at your four resource points. I call them kinfolk and you know, we have those within us, excuse me, we just have to mine a little deeper for those strengths. So pick one or two from your resource points that you really want to cultivate. So, if you find that you're in stress, if I'm working with a 3 who's in stress and they stay busy, but it's unproductive, it's a numbing out, but it's hard for 3s to hang out, so when they numb out, they're doing something, solitaire on the computer, or, you know, walking around, window shopping, or something like that. Um, I would say, as we're taught in the Diamond Approach work, whatever has you baffled or in stress, go into that. Don't numb out to it, but find what's ailing you in your body and where is that, and go into it. Feel into it without the story. We put stories on emotions and that's a bad train running right there. But when we start separating, The felt sense of an emotion, uh, from the story, now we've, now we can do some work and transform that. I mean, there's real alchemy when we can get in our bodies and allow the body, the felt sense and staying with it to transform the angst in us. Whether that's disappointment or sadness or anger.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 14:52

with me. And I'm a little bit curious about this part because for you, you know, you're in the body center. I'm in the heart center. I'm curious if you see any difference in navigating, you know, how it feels in the body, or if you teach it the same way to all, all of the centers.

Sandra Smith: 15:11

You know, in the last chapter in my book, I have what I call the pause process. And it, it's universal. We just get in our bodies no matter the type. Locate the fear, the anger, and get curious and offer a non judging presence and stay with it. Years ago when Elizabeth Kubler Ross's book came out, I think in the 80s, I think she said in that book, a real emotion lasts 90 seconds. After that, conditioned mind takes over. Yeah, and so it doesn't matter our type. If we can land in the body, we all have bodies. we're not accustomed to going into. We suppress, we deflect, we repress, or, Steph, we express an emotion. And even when we're expressing the emotion, We're not feeling it.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 16:09

Yeah.

Sandra Smith: 16:10

You know, I would, I would feel angry about something and call a friend and say, gosh, you know, this happened and she did this. And then he did that. I have a right to be angry, you know, and hanging up the phone, it was like, Oh my gosh, I feel more angry now.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 16:27

Yeah.

Sandra Smith: 16:28

And that's why when I work with organizations, I'm really cautious and talking with people about venting. Now when you vent, what, what is that? How is that supporting you and releasing the emotion? It doesn't.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 16:43

Have you read the book chatter by Ethan cross?

Sandra Smith: 16:46

I haven't, but I'll make a note.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 16:49

I think it's a fantastic book for people who have a lot of internal. Chatter

Sandra Smith: 16:54

Hmm. Mm

Stephanie Barron Hall: 16:55

especially inner critic, second guessing, things like that. But he does talk about this and there is good research to support exactly what you're saying. Sometimes we don't need research to reinforce, you know, these ideas that, that we've tried and tested, but, um, sometimes it's useful. Even, you know, if something small happens, people who vent about it tend to have a more, um, like a stronger reaction to it later.

Sandra Smith: 17:22

Exactly. And this is where we're learning so much from, uh, somatic teaching now. And when you, when you bring that in to the psycho spiritual model of the Enneagram, it's just a powerful, powerful moment. Powerful intersection. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 17:42

So I'm curious if you can trace that at all to actually finding your type, because like you said, when you sat on the three panel, You did your, you know, three ish type thing and then the next day you were like, Oh, I am, these are my people. When you heard from the eights and I'm curious if you have like any kind of somatic, cues that you help people with as they're discovering their type, she

Sandra Smith: 18:08

Hmm. You know, when I was listening to the 8th panel, I was sitting I think on the back row in the room, and I had to get up and just walk around. It just, my entire body was buzzing. And just a side story, if I may, Steph. In the narrative at the time, they would do a second round of panels, and the second round was about growth. And David Daniels said, Sandra, you're going to sit on the eighth panel now, and I want you to, figure out what was the shift. And it was more of a, not one thing, but just the gestalt of a moment when my eyes were opened. But I did tell the story, Steph, when I was maybe 11 or 12. And I grew up in rural North Carolina where we never had an earthquake. And one day we had an earthquake and it was just my mother and I in the house and my dad and sisters were, And so I'm listening to music and chilling and my mother's in the back and all of a sudden the house starts rumbling and shaking. And from the back of the house, she yells, Sandra, stop that. Because as a young person, I had so much energy and it was intense. And I was always running and jumping.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 19:29

thought you were shaking the

Sandra Smith: 19:31

I don't know, and I'm like, it's not me, I'm not doing this, you know. So, it's, it was that kind of energy, and threes and eights and seven are the high energy types, the circ types, but there's an intensity to the eight energy, and I think I really got that, and it helped me distinguish between the three and the eight. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 19:56

Yeah. I do think that eights have an intensity that's different. I also, I do a lot of typing interviews and I find that eights tend to have, a more grounded feeling,

Sandra Smith: 20:07

Mm hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 20:08

whereas I don't, there's just something different. There's just some qualities that are different for each of the types.

Sandra Smith: 20:15

true. It's true. And, you know, uh, body types sense energy in another. We can match energy. And when I'm doing Enneagram assessments, my body's doing at least half of the discernment because I'm sensing that kind of energy. And I'll tell you, sometimes, With a head tight, my head, especially if they're really overthinking, I start getting dizzy and I know when my head starts getting dizzy, you know, but probably like me, you and I have questions that are pretty key. to eliminating a type. Um, yeah. And you know, some of that's non verbal cues.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 20:59

yeah. And I mean, so I went through Beatrice Chestnut's

Sandra Smith: 21:03

good.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 21:03

Um, and so there are a lot of those questions and then a lot of the cues that they tell you to look for. And then over time you also find your own where you're like, Oh, this is a tell for me, you

Sandra Smith: 21:15

That's right. And as a heart type, you'll be, you have a feeling in intuition. And, and that's really helpful for 2's, 3's, and 4's who are teachers of the system and do assessments, and that's, that's the intuition you have. For me, it's a sensing intuition.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 21:36

I would love to jump into a little bit more of your book because your book is out now or coming out soon.

Sandra Smith: 21:43

It's, it's released on September 3, and I got my author's copies, uh, last Saturday. And I'll have to say that one of my practices, as one leading with eight, is cozying up to the word later. And in working with that as a practice, It moves me into waiting, and of course waiting is active, not passive. But I wanted to make sure my focus of attention wasn't what's out of control in this book, but that my heart would be opened, uh, open when I opened the box. So when I opened the box, and I had two friends here, uh, I looked at it and just had, uh, So much gratefulness just pour forth from my heart. And every human who supported me was right there. I mean, I can almost get teary. I was just so grateful, Steph.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 22:49

Yeah.

Sandra Smith: 22:51

And I'll tell you, one of the things I love about this book is that I invited two people of each type to write about, uh, to share a lived experience. And it's not your typical type 8 or type 3 experience. So, what I've tried to do with this book is give type more dimensionality. I'm really tired of stereotypes, tired of pigeonholing, um, and in the One of the first chapters in the book, I'm reminding us, and myself included, that each of us is a unique manifestation of our type. you know, so when a six, you know, when I'm meeting someone and they say, Oh, I lead with six, you know, I'm not thinking, Oh, well, I know you.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 23:41

Where's the fire extinguisher?

Sandra Smith: 23:42

I know that's right. That's right. I'm thinking, I wonder what I learned from this person about her unique manifestation of the type. And a lot of people aren't doing that. And it's, it's makes me quite sad about that. So we're seeing type.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 24:03

And I think sometimes what is hard about it as well as I get people coming to for typing interviews, and I'm sure you get this as well, where they're like, I just, they tell me all of the three things, for example. Everything says three, three, three. And they're like, but I'm just not that successful. Or I'm just not that, you know, fill in the blank. And it's just these stereotypes that they found. They're like, I'm such a perfectionist. And I'm like, yeah, well, a lot of us can be perfectionists. So it's not really useful to use that label for a specific type because we have all sorts of reasons for that behavior. And, um, I think that that's really useful that you're putting this, this work out there with all of your. You know, years of researching and understanding the Enneagram and bringing this different perspective.

Sandra Smith: 24:54

I love what you just said. That using the term perfectionist isn't really helpful. And so, perhaps like you, I don't use those names. I just say type 1, type 2, type 3. So that they aren't swayed.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 25:11

Yeah.

Sandra Smith: 25:12

worked with someone the other day. I've now forgotten what type she leads with, but it was to deepen her understanding. And finally I, I said, you know, I think you're believing things about yourself that you've outgrown. And she really had. So,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 25:30

useful to have that perspective.

Sandra Smith: 25:32

it really is. And I remind and encourage readers, as they approach one of these stories of what I call companion voices to find themselves in that story because we are more alike than different. I say that at all of my Enneagram trainings, we're going to talk about some nuances and the ways that we're different and how best to communicate or how we work in this situation. But keep in mind, we're more alike than different. And when we're in presence, type recedes, and we're all the same. We're all the same. I often will begin workshops asking for people to remember a moment in time they were in awe. And then describe themselves in that moment. And Steph, they'll describe their virtue. It may not be that exact word. You know, like an eight might say, gosh, I was speechless. Well, what is innocence, but no opinion, right?

Stephanie Barron Hall: 26:42

Yeah.

Sandra Smith: 26:43

And so it's just a reminder that we're more than we realize we are. We're so much more than we understand ourselves to be. And in those moments of awe, our presence arises, which then essence follows on the heels. And there we are. There we are.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 27:01

Yeah. That's a beautiful image. Um, and I think I want to hear a little bit more about your book because it's about the map to a deeper self

Sandra Smith: 27:11

Mm hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 27:12

and, um, I'm curious if you can give a little bit of insight or a tip, um, for each type that might help them move beyond the limitations of their type and kind of move into a little bit of that space of presence like you're mentioning.

Sandra Smith: 27:26

Sure. Thanks for the question. I'd be happy to and I'll preface this by saying When you look at the components of each of the Enneagram types or ego structures You can set up a question or a practice that counters that. So, I remember years ago being very sad for quite a while. And I decided I would work with my worldview for Type 8, which is the world is a wild jungle and destroys the weak. It's a terrible worldview. And so, 8s look for the 5 and, you know. And so, I decided to counter that worldview with a statement that was unbelievable to me. And I share this in the book, but that, that statement was the world is kind. I'm sorry, the world is supportive and people want to be kind. Now, what, what I did was I said that three times a day, not as a mantra, but as a reminder to look for that. Shifting my focus of attention changed my worldview and softened me because, you know, the first month, after the first month, I did this for three months, I mean, I was in pain so I went after this, and after the first month I was seeing, you know, ways that some people were kind, but six to eight weeks later it was all around me. Ways that I get carried. And couldn't see them because of the blinders that I had on. And so that, and I've continued, it became a habit really to look for ways I get carried. And, you know, you and I, three and eight, and then one, we're task oriented types. We're about getting her done. And I realized I didn't have to effort so much. And, uh, it, it, it softened. The eight armor, uh, my heart's more accessible. It can, my heart can be touched these days. Um, so it's, you know, can I shift my attention? Can I create for myself a different worldview that I'll look for? You know, when I'm, I'm working with nines and I'll just, now I'll just go down. But oftentimes with nines, I'll say, um, how do you hide behind harmony? Who would you be if harmony were a given and that's a deer and headlights question. You know, it's like for type four, who would you be if nothing were missing? So even, and so my book has inquiry questions like that for journaling, for working with others, with those, um, um, You know, there are also practices that counter the patterns of each type. And I've mentioned, you know, for, for me as an aid, practicing later when that life force, that energy comes up so fast and, and I'll start leaning forward and then later brings me back. So I just put my shoulder blades on the seat, uh, and stay and just stay a little longer and wait. And then, of course, as Assert Types, we need to sit back in meetings. We need to sit back. Whereas Nines and Fours and Fives as, as, uh, Flight or Withdrawing Types lean forward in meetings. You

Stephanie Barron Hall: 31:07

That's so funny. So as you're saying that I'm recognizing, I almost never sit on the back of a chair. I'm on the front edge. I'm always on the front edge of the chair and I'm always leaning forward.

Sandra Smith: 31:22

Well, here's our practice right there.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 31:25

Yeah.

Sandra Smith: 31:26

Sometimes I'm imagining Velcro between my shoulder blades and I just put my back against it and stay there. Um, it actually helps me remember me. You know, body types are self forgetting and just sitting back. Somehow it gets me in the picture.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 31:44

Yeah.

Sandra Smith: 31:45

I have a better understanding of my impact on others. And so, you know, for Type 1, my grandmother led with Type 1, and I was with her near her death, and she was in the hospital, and she never quite understood what I did. It's like I just talked. And for someone who grew up in the Depression, that just didn't cut it. And, I mean, one of the last things she said to me, Steph, was, Sandra, it pays to be busy. And, you know, ones, they just have to be busy. You know, it's like they're earning their keep in the world. That's kind of the illusion of the type being the responsible adult. And so one of the practices, especially for ones is Sabbath. Take a day every week or at least half a day where the right thing to do is to notice your heart's desires and follow your heart and body rather than the shoulds. For type 2, another type that leans forward, although they're not an assert type, um, you know, it's always a good practice saying no, finding ways to say no. But for 2, it's about courage, to ask for what you need and want. And so the practice is once a day, Ask another to get you something small, even if, while you're up, could you get me a glass of water? That simple. Um, I have a fun story of a two group I led, and um, one of the women, as I talked about asking, Someone to get you something. Uh, she said, I've been married for 35 years and I've never done that. So all the two said, Oh, you've got to do it tonight when you go home. You've got to do it. Ask, ask your husband for something. And she had all these student papers. She was good at grades. She was so tired. Anyway, the next week. She came in and we were sitting on the edge of our seats. Did you, did you ask him? And she said, Steph, it was so funny. Her husband leaves with five and I'm thinking, Please, please. And so, she said, I got home, I sat down, put my feet up, I said, Honey, could you get me a glass of wine? And she said it was all I could do to get the words out. then she said, Do you know what he said? And out we stopped breathing. She said, he looked at me and said, red or white. It was so nothing.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 34:29

Yeah.

Sandra Smith: 34:30

And it was everything to her.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 34:32

Mm hmm.

Sandra Smith: 34:34

And so to ask, for something you need or want. And then for type four, it's, you know, fact over feeling, when you hear the story. Going up. Stay with facts instead of assumptions. Because fours can get, take things personally, and it's because the feelings are creating these stories. Or stories are creating the feelings. Well, what are the real facts here?

Stephanie Barron Hall: 35:03

Mm hmm.

Sandra Smith: 35:04

Um, you know, and for five, the fives I work with, you know, there can be a blind spot for fives. To generosity. And so, I encourage fives to say thank you at least three times a day. Because when I say thank you, I'm realizing someone was generous to me.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 35:26

Mm hmm.

Sandra Smith: 35:28

Um, for type six, the type that, that will least trust themselves, I invite them to keep a running list. Make a, make a, an add to it every day of the good decisions they made, the smart actions they took, the successes, because there's an amnesia, there's an amnesia Sixes have about their successes, their good stuff, you know?

Stephanie Barron Hall: 35:51

Mm hmm.

Sandra Smith: 35:53

Yeah, you know all this.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 35:55

I'm married to a six,

Sandra Smith: 35:56

Okay, well you know it well. And for seven, I remember a seven group that I led years ago and one of the practices I said now, in this week, before we return next week, would you decide that you're going to follow the agenda of another? Not interrupting. Don't tell them how to get there. Just whoever you're following, just follow. And then we'll report back and see what that was like.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 36:24

Sounds like quite the stretch.

Sandra Smith: 36:27

You know what? It was. It was. Because sevens, as flexible as they look, I think might be the most inflexible type. Because they're flexible with their own agenda and plans. But, you know, Not flexible enough at times to follow another's lead, or to do it exactly like they want it. Sevens want to make it their own. They'll always change something. You know, I notice in workshops I'll ask a specific question for a repeating question or something. And often they'll change the question. So, um, we all have these little quirks by type. And we could, we can make fun of our own type and selves, we can't make fun of others. But humor helps. And to have a practice that you stay with for a while, to help soften the pattern and wake up a little bit more.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 37:25

Yeah.

Sandra Smith: 37:26

Because, you know, we're not, as I say, a lot. We aren't in this earth school that long. And I'd like to wake up before I die. So I want to free myself from these limiting patterns so that I can really be fully myself. The freedom to be me. In the book I call it, each chapter is the power of claiming for nine. The power of accepting for one. The power of being for type three. And power in the sense of what it was, how it really was defined, which is the power to be. Not to be able to. And can we claim that power? Can we take, take ourselves back?

Stephanie Barron Hall: 38:14

Yeah, it's so, it's such a challenge, um, I'm wondering if we can skip back a little bit to type three, cause I think I missed,

Sandra Smith: 38:22

I think, I did miss it.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 38:25

okay.

Sandra Smith: 38:25

Thank you. Oh my gosh, Steph, so sorry. Threes, our beloved threes. Well, you know, it's just such a good idea to check in with your emotional state a couple times or three times a day. But it is that, um, moment of stillness if, if, if a three, if any of us really, can sit in stillness. Silence for two or three minutes and simply breathe. It's like we get time back and our pace doesn't have to be so rushed. And at that moment to check in with what emotional state is up for you. We're always in an emotional state. And threes will outrun the heart and miss the emotions that have a lot of information actually. Thanks for bringing me back to that.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 39:12

I love that tip because it's something. So I, about a year and a half ago started going to a local Buddhist temple near me. So like a Dharma center and I rush, rush, rush to get there on time. And I sit down, you know, I sit down on my cushion and you know, the meditation starts. And it's like, I didn't even, this happens so frequently. It's like, I, I wasn't even aware that I wasn't really breathing or that I wasn't really. Present, right? And then I sit and I'm quiet and I just feel like this rush of just calm. And I'm like, whoa, you know, it's like, and I, I just forget to, you know, I forget that that's available anytime. Um, but it's such just a nice, pleasant feeling that I feel like a lot of the time is so foreign to how I live my daily life.

Sandra Smith: 40:09

Yep. All right. Threes, listen up. It's good advice. You just offered stuff. Yeah. And you know, threes will freeze breath in the chest because it's almost like even breathing gets in the way of doing. And you're good noticing on your part. Yeah. Stillness.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 40:28

Well, those are all so helpful. Um, I think we'll probably do a little blog post along with the podcast and I'll, I'll jot all of those down so that people can check back in on them.

Sandra Smith: 40:40

And, and, and the greatest practice we can have is the practice of presence. And I just want to say that, you know, there are two different words here, present, and then presence. And I can be present with you, and focused, and hear you, and my body's right here, my mind is here, but, you know, for a certain types, the heart is the least accessible brain. So when I go receptive, when I just relax, I and allow, and I, my heart comes online. Now presence can arise and all three brains are now accessible to me. And the tone gets softer and the body's more expansive now. and I think Russ Hudson said this at one of the IEA conferences, but, and he just so succinctly put as he can do, Type shows up when you don't. And so this presence practice is healing for all of us. Yeah. I grew up on the land and with horses, and those two were my teachers in presence.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 41:58

I think animals can be such fantastic teachers and I, similar to you, um, I interviewed somebody, one to two people of each subtype for my book. Um, and so one of the fives, I, I interviewed a self preservation five and she talked about how she grew up working with horses. And she learned through that process that she needed to recognize her body so that she could communicate with the horse and how as a five that made her gave her so much more access. To her body. And I was like, Oh, that's so brilliant. I think that more of us need something like that.

Sandra Smith: 42:39

Steph, it's powerful, and I think every young girl should ride a horse. Because culture is not kind to us and our bodies. We become, uh, objectified. But horses get us in our bodies. And every young girl, it's just the best gift. Thanks for saying that.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 43:03

Um, I'm curious if you can share a little bit about where our listeners can connect with you. Um, so that they can grab your book. I'm excited to get my hands on it. So I'd love to hear more about that.

Sandra Smith: 43:15

Thank you. So it's available for pre order now on Amazon or Bookshop. And probably at a local independent bookstore. And it will be released on September 3. Um, you can also find links and the book tour, which I have on my website, which is alchemyworksevents. com. There's an author page. And my book tour starts on September 4th. I'd love to have anyone come and be a part. And the guest writers, uh, who live in that particular city will join me and talk about what it was like for them. And then my Instagram, of course, publishers want you to have an Instagram account, which was pretty foreign to me back a few years ago when this was happening. But I'm at Sandra Smith Alchemy Works and I, um, have information about the book there. But also, you know, I do a series. Right now I'm in the virtues of the types, uh, little snippets. So that would be how to find me and learn more about the book.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 44:26

Perfect. That sounds great. Um, so I have two final questions that I ask everyone. Um, so first is tell me a book about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year.

Sandra Smith: 44:42

This may have been more than a year ago, but I keep this book out on my side table. The Boy, the Mole, the Fox, and the Horse by Charlie MacCasey. He's an artist. I can read that little book and I cry every time. It's tender and it is simple and the illustrations are simple and beautiful and so it speaks right to the heart in a sense. There's a kindness about the book, uh, and you know, you can think of it as a children's book, but it really is for everyone, especially for adults, I think. Uh, what's real? Yeah, what's real? Poetry, I read poetry a lot.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 45:39

Do you have any favorite poets?

Sandra Smith: 45:42

It depends on my mood, but if I am feeling low, I bring out Hafiz, the Persian poet Hafiz, because he's so funny. You know? He can start a poem with, The fish and I will chat. And my perspective's totally changed. Right? Um, Mary Oliver's always helpful to me. And, um, I close my book with a Rumi poem about allowing. I mean, they're, David White's good, John O'Donohue, Denise Levertov, um, yeah, poetry is life changing.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 46:22

Beautiful. Okay. Um, final question. Um, tell me a piece of advice that has really stuck with you.

Sandra Smith: 46:33

I can't believe what just entered my mind, but I'm not going to share that one. Um, you know, Steph, I have so many teachers, and I've come to learn that whoever is before me is a teacher. And I remember David Daniels, we were talking about all sorts of things, but he said, Remember, when you're in reactivity, it's because you're in pain, you're hurting. So whenever you see another in reactivity, remember, they're hurting, and let that be a compassionate entry point. Yeah, I think, you know, we get reactive when another's reactive, but if we can remember, This is out of a wound and just stay steady. It changes everything. And I wish, I wish that for all of us because we're so reactive right now in our culture. And you know, the Enneagram for me, it's just such a spiritual map. I don't know where my spiritual life would be without it, but can you imagine who we would be if we're all standing? in our holy idea or enlightened spiritual perspective as I call it. In both and in oneness. More than both and, it's oneness. And I think when we can do that, when we take ourselves seriously enough to do the inner work, we can become compassionate participants in our world. rather than dualistic participants.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 48:18

Well, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing that tidbit of wisdom and everything else you shared today. I think that our listeners will really enjoy this episode. And also I'm so excited, like I said, to get my hands on your book. Um, so I really appreciate your time and for sharing that with me.

Sandra Smith: 48:39

Thank you, Steph. Thank you for your presence today.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 48:43

Thank you.

Steph Barron Hall: 48:44

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on Spotify