Nhien Vuong: 1:47

we're helping to clarify threeness the idea of wanting to add value to the world.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 1:55

Mm-hmm.

Nhien Vuong: 1:55

Was never equated with this, the more self-centered description of the three, only seeking your own, um, ambition, if you will, but recognizing that yes, from the three place of not believing in my innate value and believing that I must add value to the world to be valuable. So the quest to add value is something I deeply resonate with and deeply believe is a three, three-ish thing that yes, can look like material or other success when seen through the Western lens.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 2:38

Hello and welcome to Enneagram in Real Life, the podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host, Stephanie Barron Hall, and on today's episode we're talking about using the Enneagram in a contemplative way. So my guest today is Reverend Yan Vong and she is a lawyer, uh, so Juris doctor and MD, and is an internationally accredited Enneagram professional with distinction, a certified somatic Enneagram facilitator and the founder of Evolving Enneagram. So I followed her on Instagram for a while, so, um, that might be where you've encountered her as well. She has been studying the Enneagram since 2002, teaching it since 2007, and training other Enneagram professionals since 2017, she holds a juris doctor from Stanford Law School, a master of Divinity from Unity Institute and Seminary, and a Bachelor of Arts in Philosophy from the University of California Irvine. As an ordained interspiritual unity minister Yen marries intellectual rigor with a heart, for a more collaborative, compassionate world. Born in wartime Vietnam and raised in the United States. She comes from a family of refugees who built their lives from the ground up, yin is a spiritual companion to individuals from diverse backgrounds from around the world. She regularly offers scholarships for evolving Enneagrams many transformational programs, and donates her time to various nonprofits and the incarcerated. Her extensive experience in pastoral care, community building and conflict resolution helped to foster a world where everyone belongs. Her brand new book is coming out this month. It's called The Enneagram of the Soul of 40 Day Spiritual Companion for the Nine Types. And I love this quote from the foreword, which is by Russ Hudson. The Enneagram of the Soul invites us on a journey of profound self-discovery. This beautiful book helps us remember that the real and original Enneagram work helps us shed the concepts of ourselves and others that no longer serve us, so that we may prepare ourselves for the mysterious and fantastic changes ahead that we all know are upon us. We had a really great time discussing not only her book, but also our types. We share the same Enneagram core type and subtype. So Nana and I really chatted about that and we had a great conversation, but I also wanted to let you know that, a big part of Reverend Y's work is actually, um, building community and helping people to walk alongside each other in community, with the Enneagram. So she's offering a two day certification for people who want to lead book journeys, meaning it's kind of like a book club where you're just leading people through the book and it's very much a contemplative practice. She'll talk a lot about the structure of the book, which is I think is really helpful and useful, during our conversation today. But this particular event, where she's offering the certification, will be April 12th and 13th. So it's coming up here, so make sure you sign up for that if you're interested in leading friends of yours. And as I mentioned in her bio, this is very much kind of an interfaith thing. So, um, it incorporates all sorts of different practices and you can be of various different backgrounds, like for example, Zen, Buddhist or Muslim, or mystical Christian, or really any of those that really have an interest in contemplative or um, meditative practices. So if you'd like to learn more about this facilitator training, you can find it on the Evolving Enneagram website. You can also find more about Yin and her book on evolving Enneagram on Instagram, and I will link both of those things in the show notes. My final thought for this intro before we get into the book is, as I mentioned, yin and I share the same type and subtype, and I think it's just always funny being in the same space with somebody who shares your same subtype because, You can kind of get each other and you like, know where each other are coming from without having to say too much. And so we did say a lot, but um, it was just a really fun and engaging conversation and I hope that you really enjoy it. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Reverend Yin Vong. Okay. Well, Nian, welcome to the podcast.

Nhien Vuong: 6:44

So great to be here. Thanks for having me, Steph.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 6:47

Let's start with a bit of an introduction into your background, um, how you found the Enneagram and how you found your type.

Nhien Vuong: 6:55

Oh yes. Okay. Well, wow. Deep dive already. So I found the Enneagram the same weekend that I. Left my husband and left my law job in San Francisco. So I was living in San Francisco at the time and I basically quit my life and I was sitting in my one bedroom like studio ish apartment, and I had. Purchased a, a stack of books going, you know, I'm gonna figure this out. Like, why do I keep messing up my life? Um, and one of those books was, uh, understanding the Enneagram by Don Riso and Russ Hudson, like one of the older Enneagram books. And so I look at this book and in it, there's that ready test, that's R-H-E-T-I, uh, for those who are listening. And, and so I took that online, read the description. I actually scored highest at the time. In three with one just being below it. And at the time I thought I was a one, so, so, um. What happened was, well, I looked at both of them, so three in one were always like up there for me. But what happened for me in terms of believing I was a type one at the time was when I read the description about believing that there's something fundamentally defective about me. Like that resonated with. Like how I felt my entire life. Like I felt like I was constantly reading books and looking for like, what's wrong with me? Like what's wrong with me, that I don't know how to be happy, what's wrong with me, that other people seem happy with these things and I'm not, you know? And then so there was this constant trying to like. Fix myself and fix my environment. And so that felt very one-ish at the time. And I remember when I read that description in contrast to the three description, which I felt like was probably more social subtype three, a little bit more white male in the description at the time. Right? Like, so when I read the one, I cried for the type one. I mean, I cried. I wasn't a crier back then. I was an attorney back then. I was not a crier. And I cried for like. The afternoon and then I called my ex-husband and apologized. So I was like, oh, I'm sorry that I've never been sorry, our whole relationship because like I had this like need to be right. So there are all these revelations that happened in that moment, but the idea that there was this system that could, that was telling me that, that your personality. Things like you're defective, but you're more than your personality. Like this idea that like you're more than that. And I had never really been exposed to that idea before, like that, what, what if I'm not broken? Like that was the beginning of planting a seed in me that would just begin to blossom and grow over the years. But that was my, like, that was my entry into the Enneagram. And then. From there? Oh, should I, I wanna make sure I answer your question. Okay. So you wanna go to like how it came to be here in this moment? Okay, so, so that at the time, by the way, because I am a Unity minister, at the time, I didn't believe in God in spirituality at all. Like if anything, I was a devout atheist. I'd been. Seeking my whole life philosophically, again, reading tons of books, but nothing resonated with me. So when I first found the Enneagram, I was using it totally psychologically, like, oh my gosh, I understand this, I understand you. Life is getting better. This is great. And then two years later, I hit a bottom in my life and I have a, what I call my spiritual awakening. And the bottom was basically a. A point at which I was like, this is my relationships. Weren't working. Uh, I had no friends at the time, which people are like mind-boggling for people who know me today. I had, I was so incredibly lonely. All I had was my partner, my boyfriend at the time, never got along with any of my boyfriends. It was just a nightmare. And then I was estranged from my family. So this is a pretty extreme story, you know, and, but when I hit bottom, it was just sort of like. Wow. I think I'm smart, but I can't do this. I of my own accord can't figure out my life how to. And so that moment of am I open to another way? And that opening was the beginning of me. Also meditating and meditation was this. Weird thing that people were doing in Northern California. Right. And I remember the first time I was in, oh, so I hit bottom. I started a 12 step program. I went into one of these 12 step programs and they were meditating. And I remember I was like the one peeking to see like if it's two people have their eyes closed, you know, all the things. And so at that point, as I began to. Really feel the truth of this promise of wholeness from the inside out. Like that began to change everything, and then that's when. The Enneagram, which was over here. Kind of like the understanding of that and then the felt direct experience of like my wholeness. And then from that place my connection to other people like it. Like, oh, I was striving for that connection before when I didn't realize, like from within me, I feel more connected to you because I feel more caring toward you because there's something inside me that is like. Connected to all that is, you know, that like going within rather than going without, right. For, for that knowing, if you will. That's the beginning and then I'll say happened to be a relationship where I took the certification training with Helen Palmer narrative, uh, in the narrative tradition in 2006, I believe long time ago. So. That was the beginning of my entree into like formal Enneagram training, and I'd say the rest is history. I'm happy to talk more about what I do today, but that's kind of the backstory to the beginnings of how that emerged.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 13:17

Sure. I, I resonate with a lot of the things that you've said and as we've kind of chatted about, um, we share the same subtype and so that makes sense. But it's also interesting to hear how. You had these different paths and then it sounds like you were kind of tapping into like the holy idea of the type three and like really opening the heart center of the type three. Um, which my teachers say that threes are the most emotional type because the heart of the heart center, but we just turn it off

Nhien Vuong: 13:47

Mm

Stephanie Barron Hall: 13:48

until we really do our work. Right.

Nhien Vuong: 13:49

Yeah. Yeah. That's so precious. Yeah, absolutely. In fact, in my family, um. I was the crier in the family, you know, and I realized that early on, people, you know, my siblings would walk by. I mean, uh, you know, again, we fled a war and it was like, nobody is like sad or something. And I'd be crying in the room and they'd be like, why is she still crying? And I just Shut it down. Shut it down. And yeah, well, it clearly didn't go anywhere, but, but yeah, the heart, the heart of the heart types. I love that. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 14:19

And I think there is this type three piece of. Doing what everyone has always told you to do. Like this is how you can be successful, become an attorney,

Nhien Vuong: 14:31

Right?

Stephanie Barron Hall: 14:31

get this high powered job, and then hitting this like rock bottom where you're like, this is not it. I don't know. What is it though? I just know it's not this.

Nhien Vuong: 14:41

yes, yes. And and, and to that point, I remember now looking back. Seeing Threeness, it's so clear now looking back, because even the way I described my bottom, I didn't describe it as, oh, I was so sad, so despairing. I was like, I was completely hollow. It was like I was, I collapsed in on the hollowness inside of me is how I described it. That's what it felt like, that I was so hollow. And it was like, but you're working so hard. You, how could you be so empty? You know? And, and, and, and it just like, it was like numbness. It wasn't, it wasn't so much drama. It was like just. Nothing but the despair of that nothingness inside myself, um, to lead to a journey of then discovering it's because, and you've been seeking it outside yourself, you know, mainly through relationships, mainly through a very three-ish way of being seen. And I love chatting with a fellow like sexual three, which I don't know that like I named that earlier. But, uh, the sexual piece of like being. Wanted, like, like, and not just wanted, but maybe even put on a pedestal. Like, to be honest, right? Like, because if you're not like up there, you're nobody. That was like the feeling, if I'm not like that great or that amazing to you, to this very particular person, um, then, you know, I'm nobody. And, and yeah, I couldn't have articulated it back then, but that was just the compulsion to stay. In relationship, in unhealthy relationships, you know, um, yeah. To, to meet that need and, and then to find out that, you know, I didn't focus on do I like you, are you interesting to me? No. Do you want me? Okay. That is the barometer. How much you want me is okay, we're doing it. We're being a relationship. Right.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 16:38

Yeah, I can merge with you. Yeah.

Nhien Vuong: 16:42

Yeah. So amazing.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 16:45

Were there any kind of like aha moments when you were figuring out, okay, I'm not a one, I'm a three. Like, what was that like, like.

Nhien Vuong: 16:53

Yeah, well it took an embarrassingly long time. I will say. I mean, only in the last several years and I've been teaching the Enneagram for years. Um, so what happened was, of course we know that ones in threes behaviorally are very similar. They're rational competency types. They can both work really hard, uh, and. What we don't, I think a lot of people don't realize about threes is that depending on your background, you can be very perfectionistic. So that description of cutting corners never resonated because I was like, we don't cut corners here. Not in my house. You know? And so, so over time though, this inner. Journey of self-compassion, of contemplation, centering prayer is my primary spiritual practice. It's just a practice of self emptying over time. And then more so in recent years, well first I started to feel more whole. I started to feel more loving, um, and only in say the last four years. I felt like this inner critic that was heavy and mean and bullyish my entire life was like almost. Just physically, almost like physically gone from my shoulders. It was so bizarre. And I had this thought that many Enneagram teachers talk about, which is people mistype when they're like, oh yes, I'm really this type, but I'm so evolved now. I'm not like that. And I'm like, BS you. And I was like, you're. Evolve, but you're not so evolved that you suddenly have no inner critic. Like, like, so that feeling that was pressing upon me was gone. And, and so in that spaciousness, I began the inquiry again of maybe, maybe I'm not a one after all. And it wasn't until I actually read Hamid Ali's, uh, his pending's, ah, Alma's book, keys to the Enneagram, where he talks about the three as wanting. To live the model life and I'm like, boom. I have been talking about this my whole life. I'm like, if every I wanna live the life that if everybody lived as I lived the world would be a better place. That was, that was my goal my whole life. And this idea that it was not relegated to oneness that that what I equated as oneness in, in this like idealized self was also could also be seen as the wanting to live a model life, right? And yes, with the nuance of, and yeah, you need to be sexy and attractive too.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 19:33

Right, of course.

Nhien Vuong: 19:34

Like you can't lose that. Like you need to be all that, but like. While keeping attractiveness, you know, thank God I'm a little older now. I'm like, screw it. But, but you know, but in my earlier years especially, it was, it was rough. Yeah. And so when I, I felt like that resonated. And the other thing I wanna add, and I think maybe the two of us together, it feels like it can create that space where we're helping to clarify threeness the idea of wanting to add value to the world.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 20:06

Mm-hmm.

Nhien Vuong: 20:07

That I only thought of as the one's idealism of doing good, right? Was never equated with this, the more self-centered description of the three, only seeking your own, um, ambition, if you will, but recognizing that yes, from the three place of not believing in my innate value and believing that I must add value to the world to be valuable. So the quest to add value is something I deeply resonate with and deeply believe is a three, three-ish thing that yes, can look like material or other success when seen through the Western lens. Right? Yeah. A lot of nodding. So,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 20:52

Yeah. I, I mean, I think like the concept of I wanna be admirable, I wanna be impressive. Like, those feel really core to the three motivation, I'd say. Um, and that feels really aligned with like, wanting to be the model, you know, wanting to be, it's almost like threes wanna be. The prototype of like, this is how to live a good life. Um, and that, that does resonate for sure. I think another big piece for threes is that sense of hollowness and emptiness that you mentioned, um, of, of this real fear that beneath the facade there's nothing there.

Nhien Vuong: 21:33

Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 21:34

and so like the, the desire to add value, right? But also the steep fear of like, okay, I'm actually empty inside. That feels like it really resonates, and I don't know if that does resonate for ones. I'm trying to think of people I've done typing interviews with and I don't feel like I've heard that theme as much.

Nhien Vuong: 21:53

hmm, hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point. Um, I think that that's accurate and, um, yeah, and, and just related to that, uh, emptiness or the, the fear of. Being fully empty, if you will, fully empty. Uh, that emptiness is the first thing encountered. And the willingness to persist with the emptiness without having to fill it with accomplishments or validation. You know, that's the beginning of the healing. Right. You know, so the, to persist in that emptiness and, and the devastation of that emptiness, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 22:38

how did you find your subtype? Because again, that can be so challenging, and I think especially the sexual three subtype can be a really tricky one to land on.

Nhien Vuong: 22:48

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll start by saying I've been wrong before, so I could be wrong again. You know, I mean, legitimately, right? Like I'm super open. Uh, and, but I think that I, I mean, I look back and. First of all, I identify with so many of the descriptions of the sexual energy being about chemistry. The ability to go in and just feel the room and, you know, where's the juice that that piece is. So like, that's how I, I've navigated life, right? Um, unconsciously, until I learned about that and. And yes, sexual competitiveness. Like I think that if I were to weigh, knowing that social is my second, but recognizing I'm like, you know, I, for, I have let go of opportunities in that realm. Uh, you know, in favor of relationship time and time again, in favor of desirability to particular people time and time again. Even understanding that, that the sexual dominant is more likely to dress. In, in a more unique way, uh, for the desired partner, even if it doesn't fit the norm. Like, like versus a social dominant who might be more inclined to just fit the norm, you know, be excellent within that norm, but, but blended. It more blend in more than than the way that I think I'm constituted. Yeah. So I think that's the piece for me. Um, also, even. Again, there's so many different theories about the instincts, but I really resonate, uh, with what Mario Kora says about what he calls the transmitting instinct for the what he equates to the sexual instinct that many people call the sexual instinct. Oh, and by the way, that the narrative judicial sometimes calls one-to-one instinct, and I. Wholeheartedly disagree with that characterization. You know? Because I was like, who? Someone clearly was not a sexual Dominic who, who named it that way? Right. But that said, the transmitting piece was like, it's almost like you're, you, you transmit, look at me and then listen to me, look at me, listen to me like that, that I resonate with for sure. As a way of being in the world. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 25:13

Yeah, and I think that it's such a good description. And also I really think a lot about like, um, polarities with the sexual instinct where it's like off and on, like. All in, all out, you know, or there is like the merging, right? Um, with that desired other person. But there's also this thing that I don't necessarily see in a lot of other threes, which is picking at conflict in a way that a lot of threes are a bit more averse to. And so sometimes like with my husband, he's like, why do you have to just go against everything I say now? I mean, I'm kind of like, well, you're a six so you do the same thing. But like there is this kind of part of me that's like Uhuh

Nhien Vuong: 26:01

Hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 26:01

and when I teach it in corporate,'cause I don't use sexual when I teach in corporate. Right. But I use the term spark. Um,'cause I feel like again, that's like what we're after, right? Is like, let's just find a spark.

Nhien Vuong: 26:14

yes, yes. Even as you were talking, I was, I was like, and we were talking about, uh, a certain relationship with conflict, a little more comfort. I was like, I've always described it as like, yeah, I'm fiery. Like, like I, you know, I, I, I teach love in this, but like, I don't mind fire. Like, I don't mind that, um, aliveness. That is equated, you know, with, um, yeah. Sometimes with conflict and so, so yeah, like I don't, I don't lean back when, when conflict comes, I lean forward into it for sure. Yeah. So it's interesting to hear that in you as well. Um,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 26:51

Yeah, I think it's interesting, but, but there's also like the weird, like, let's merge, but let's not, you know what I mean? That piece too,

Nhien Vuong: 26:59

Yeah, that is really interesting. Um, I think that, well, I mean, we could go into a whole conversation about like, uh, some of the work I do one-on-one with people in, um, in building up their repressed instinctual center like. You know, as I worked on with myself, like there's no way I would have my company evolving Enneagram had I not worked on my self preservation blind spot. Like, steadiness was never my thing. I was in, and then I was out in, and then I was out. I, I was such a lever most of my life. Like, I initiate and, and of course I know that you have self, pre middle, so there may be a little different energy there, you know, but for me that's, that's what that looked like a lot. Like the, there was no. Reverence for any kind of infrastructure. For most of my life, I had to. Cultivate the capacity to, at first bear it, like, at this, it wasn't like a like, welcome it, it was like bearing it and feeling my discomfort and what that is like. And then having that begin to, to change me to where things that are more, um, routine or mundane or administrative now have become sort of more like acts of devotion. That used to be burdens and, and yeah. And so the capacity to stay to persevere, that is not often present in the, the sexual dominance. Right? Like that, that has increased substantially over time, but very through a lot of like intentionality, right? Yeah. Yeah. So.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 28:43

Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that can differentiate the one and three, right? Because the other day I was. On a podcast, and the one said, slow and steady wins the race. And I was like, that is not a gear that threes have. Like maybe, maybe a, maybe self press three sometimes. But there's still like, it's not slow and steady. It's like, let's get it done. Let, let's go for it. Let's do it all today. You know?

Nhien Vuong: 29:09

Slow and steady. Yeah. I've never thought that.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 29:12

No.

Nhien Vuong: 29:14

Yeah. Yeah. So interesting. I'll, I'll jump in and say that my fir my reaction to that statement. Also slow and steady, like. All my whole practice now is slowness, like contemplation is spaciousness. Right? And I would say that even like the idea that there's a race starts to dissolve, like, you know, but, but yeah, so just looking at that old, that paradigm, I'm like, oh, and it's no longer a race because where are we going? But aren't we here? You know, like, yeah. Yeah. So interesting.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 29:49

So I think that's a great segue to talk about your book some. So it's the Enneagram of the Soul a 40 day spiritual companion for all nine types.

Nhien Vuong: 29:59

Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 30:00

So tell me about your book and what inspired you to write it.

Nhien Vuong: 30:03

Oh my goodness. Okay, so, so. Oh, where do I start? My book has nine practices, nine principles, nine prayers, and then 40 activations. It also has a little Enneagram primer that focuses on like the, uh, our types of relationship to the holy idea as well as like our soul gifts. Um, so, so I guess I'll start there by saying like, what it is and then what inspired me? Uh uh, so the idea like. I'm a Unity minister. Unity has this very like holistic, non-dual, uh, perspective on who we are saying that we are not born in original sin, but instead born in original blessing. Born whole and perfect exactly as we are. And, and then from that perspective, you know, there's this idea that life is a falling asleep to. That divine wholeness of, and just like the self forgetting at 0.9 and, and then the waking up to oneness though isn't just okay, we're all one like this amorphous oneness, but instead the idea is that we move from. Personality being identified with personality to then something called individuality, which is the self that knows it is one with all that is, but still has the uniqueness of the gifts of your type, you know, so that you are living from this place of knowing what, what is, what undergirds us and what is behind us. What is within us is this spirit. Spirit is love, is light. And yet. There's a purpose to Enneagram type. We don't completely abandon it. We definitely don't reject or demonize it, but rather it be, it comes into service to the whole, to that wholeness, into that oneness. And so this book is really aimed to invite people into. That consideration, uh, of what Enneagram inner work can be for, and then also to offer a path that is. Interspiritual or spiritually open? Uh, I've noticed that there were many devotionals that are Christian, fundamental Christian, and I hope that this book actually invites everybody right. You know, so is inclusive of that, but that. These devotionals don't al always resonate if like Bible scripture does, may not always resonate. Like I quote from Buddhist teachers and from Sufi, uh, mystics like Rumi. And, and that is true to my own journey. The truth of my journey is that I've been deeply informed by diverse, spiritual and religious paths, and I wanted to offer a companion guide for others who might be feeling more on their own out there. In that path as well. Yeah. So, so that's the heart of it. And then practically speaking, um, unlike some devotionals that are only like for your number, this one has the 40 activations include descriptions for each of the types. Um, so I have found that when I first published some of these on Instagram, oh, to go back to how it was inspired. Okay. I've been wanting to write a book for centuries and then I would set aside Friday. Nothing would happen. It was so frustrating, so hard. And then, um, one day one of my clients asked me to write some affirmations for some big event they were having. And it was late in the game. They asked for it. I wrote them. They're like, oh my God, we love them. We're so sorry. We, um, it's, it's like too late to submit them. But then I saw them and I sent them to some of my faculty and they were like. These are good. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. And then for 90 straight days, somehow I wrote 90 of these like daily activations. I mean, it took like four hours a day. I don't even know. It just came from nowhere. So I started putting them on Instagram. I wasn't even really on Instagram. And then people were like, oh, when I first put them out, someone asked. Oh, these are good. What, what book did you get them from? Or like, who wrote them? I was like, I, I'm like, who wrote them? I better put my name on it. It was so funny. And then, but then the other thing was people were like, is there a book? And I'm like, oh, this is my book. Like here I was working over there and like. Duh. This is the book that I'm meant to write. And, and so it came together like that. The reason I bring up the nine is people were starting to read them all, not just their own, and it created a, a spaciousness of perspective for people, uh, that was different from just reading your own. And then people were reading them to their neighbors during Covid, and I was like. Oh, this is meant for community and, and yeah. So, so that piece of like what inspired it, but also how it was a very almost like collaborative journey of how the whole universe is like telling me what needs to happen for this, what's needed. Right. And, and so that's kind of how the book emerged. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 35:35

Wow, that feels very, in touch with like the higher level of type three, like thinking about the holy ideas and you know, the virtue and everything. that it kind of came about. It wasn't like, I'm gonna just set this goal and go for it. It was like it just entered.

Nhien Vuong: 35:54

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 35:55

Yeah.

Nhien Vuong: 35:55

Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 35:56

That's beautiful. and you talk in your book about discovering your divine nature through the lens of the Enneagram,

Nhien Vuong: 36:03

Hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 36:03

and I'm wondering if you can share more about what that means.

Nhien Vuong: 36:06

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so when I teach the Enneagram and what I talk about in the book is I actually prefer that people not start with the nine, but with the one, the circle of the Enneagram, and really meditate on this notion that the circle represents our wholeness. And for me, and it doesn't have to be for everyone. You can benefit from the book even if you don't believe that. But, but my belief is that, uh, that circle represents our divine nature. That, that we are intrinsically one with the divine. And so really it's open the, when I talk about opening to our divine nature, I'm just really talking about opening to our authentic nature, right? Like what is true. And, but if you look at the circle. You can see that all of the types sit at the circumference of the circle. And just like if you are a wave on the edge of the ocean, right, like you're not. In the depths of your being, coming from the depths of your being. And it's not just the threes that are superficial in this way, right? That no, none of us when we operate from personality are operating from the totality and depth of our whole essence. And so, so the practice is recognizing how personality is a doorway, a portal, um, an opening. It's like it gives us a clue, you know, into that. Uh, divine, uh, the fuller divine nature, and, and so learning about our Enneagram type can help us to do that. But the activations are designed to offset the pool of type, the gravitational pool of type. Toward the circumference, toward acting out the habit of type and staying just right there. Yeah. So each of the invitations are designed to consider another way of showing up that maybe the type says No way, right? Like, how does the three ever get to stop? Right to allow like space for something else to emerge, you know, without calling ourselves lazy or, you know, like the, you know, that kind of thing. And, and recognizing that, how does the two ever learn to, um, to say no, to not give, to know who they are with, without that relationality of giving. So that's, that's the hope for the book that, that each. Person by entering through their type might get even a glimpse of a part of their rejected wholeness, right? Rejected by the type and have, uh. Space and invitation and companionship through the book to open to that wholeness more fully. Yeah. And so there are practices in the book as well to help those nine practices are designed for supporting, uh, the, the 40 INTA activations. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 39:07

I love this perspective too, because I. I mean, spirituality is, is a challenge for me. just because I came out of one of those, you know, more, um, high control religious environments. And so it can be so challenging then to regain some perspective on spirituality that like once you leave that of like, okay, well now how do I get in touch with this? Um, and so through doing work around actually like. H almost is teachings like facets of unity and the keys to the Enneagram. There is this intrinsic concept of like, well, we have to have some sort of connection to the spiritual in order to

Nhien Vuong: 39:50

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 39:50

understand these concepts at all. Right? But there's this innate spirituality to it that, um, we have to be able to, to understand and recognize. And I really like your vision of what that looks like, because it can be so challenging to have like a concept of what that, that could mean outside of, um, you know, some of the more,

Nhien Vuong: 40:11

Establish like dogma religion. Yeah. Yeah. No, thank you. And, and. You know, the idea that for me, I believe our most authentic teaching is, you know, we teach what we most need to learn and we teach what we needed. And I know for me, questing, since I was a little girl, for like the meaning of life and having no help in that, um, and not really believing most of the. Religious books that I read, I was like, okay, well half the population never had a chance to know about this God you're talking about. And so, you know, it was like, is it fair? You know, my grandpa has never heard and is he going to hell? Right? Like, like that, that was hard for me. And, and there was no support. I've had people. Tell. I remember one time I was actually really stressed about not finishing the book, and I had a woman tell me, you know, yin, you don't even realize before you, I didn't even know you could be spiritual but not religious. I was like, what? You know, like, whoa. I mean, I, I thought most people knew that, but it's like there's, there are all these people who don't know that yet. I'm like, yes, there's space for this. When we know that there's a direct connection that we have to this, this allness of being. Right? Yeah. So, and the tricky part I think in all of my work in the community that I hold, which is also interspiritual, is I hold my integrity when I speak in I statements of like what I believe. But what I believe doesn't need to be what you believe. And the reason for that is it so happens to be that what I believe is that you are fundamentally divine no matter what you think or believe, right? So, so it doesn't matter. I don't need to convince you to believe something in order for you to be divine. And if I'm not holding your divinity, that's my problem. That's my lack of seeing. Yeah, that's not a lack of yours. It's that I'm not connected to the Holiness. And so that's my practice, uh, on an ongoing basis and how I hold space for differences in other people. Right. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 42:17

Yeah. That's so beautiful. Um, I'm wondering if you could share one or two practices from your book that you might find beneficial for us to incorporate in our daily lives, especially if we're a bit newer to this kind of form of spirituality.

Nhien Vuong: 42:33

Mm mm Yeah. So. One practice. So, so I do have nine practices listed in the book, but I want to share one that's not in the nine that I hope just permeates the book. And it might sound like overly, I don't know, loosey goosey or woowoo, but I mean it when I say that. For me, compassion as a. Practice has probably been the most transformational thing that I've seen in myself and in other people. And I say that carefully because our society has confused things like self-care. Oh, self-care. You know, this is bubble bath nights. Everybody, you know, like, you know, or self care like, is maybe indulging in things that are not life giving because it feels like I'm treating myself. So, and sometimes compassion can, can be applied to be like, oh yes, well it doesn't matter that I did that. That's okay. It's, it's something deeper that I mean, that says, wow, in this moment I can't forgive this person. And the old me might have been judgmental. Toward myself that I am not there yet. And somehow compassion is a circle that becomes larger, that holds my unforgiveness, holds my willingness to forgive is something like making space for what is and what's true in me right now. And I've noticed that when. My clients, when my community members apply that to what is happening for them, then the shift they've been waiting for, they're like whole lives starts to happen, right? And, and something softens and, and becomes like open, right? It's almost like if you think about. You know, Enneagram, literally as a fixation. It's like the, the fix that fixation is so constricted, right? And then compassion does something like that. Wow. This little space here. And in that space, something I might call spirit or divine love flows. And that is the thing that ends up transforming the person. Right? And so, so that's the, it's almost like I. I repeatedly tell people that I'd rather you not know the Enneagram than apply the Enneagram without compassion.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 45:02

Mm-hmm.

Nhien Vuong: 45:03

Yeah. So that's, that's one practice. I could share another that's a little, maybe a little more concrete too. It's up to you. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 45:11

Well, I do love that one, but if you'd like to share another, I'm sure we'd love to hear it.

Nhien Vuong: 45:16

So, oh my God, how do I pick? So from, from the, from the nine, the one that keeps jumping out is the welcoming practice. Yeah. So. Uh, the welcoming practice, well, of course it's all in the book, but like the shortcut is, the short version is if you have a triggering feeling, uh, to drop step one, drop into the feeling as a sensation in your body. You know, first as a step to welcome it by allowing it to be received. Like, oh, maybe the feeling of anxiety is actually like bubbly stuff in my belly, you know, to just have space for that. Then step two, and this is a spiritual element, uh, is. As you welcome this sensation, you welcome in the presence of spirit by whatever name it could be welcoming love. And from a Buddhist perspective, I think, uh, Cynthia Brazeau, who's talked about this prayer has said it's almost as if when you welcome in that presence, maybe your anxiety was a little like tight. Bright red dot and now you've put it into an ocean of awareness. And so with little red.in an ocean, what is that like? So welcoming in spirit. Step two. And then step three is a release. A release, the need for power or control over this feeling or situation. I released the need for approval or esteem around this feeling or situation. I released the need for security or certainty around this feeling or situation. I released the need to change anything about this feeling or situation, and I released the need to change anything about myself. And so that prayer is like a welcoming of what is that? Paradoxically, just like compassion actually allows this experience to move through us, to not get stuck, to not cause reactivity, but it starts to clear to me it's an act of deep self-compassion and love to, to not reject what we're experiencing in any moment. And then, but also a, a submitting of it to something bigger than ourselves. I think that's a piece of it as well to understand. Then I realized that as I've practiced this, if I'm allowed to feel anything, right, if I have space to feel anything, then I'm free. Right. Uh, then I'm spiritually free to live my full potential. Because there were moments, there was a moment when I left church ministry to found evolving Enneagram, where I was terrified. I was like, I don't, I don't know. And I remember thinking, oh, it's because you want the guarantee that you'll succeed. You want the guarantee that if you leave. And I was like, if I'm prepared to fail to feel that, then I am free.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 48:09

Mm-hmm.

Nhien Vuong: 48:10

Oh, you know, that's, that's my ongoing practice. So everything I put in the book, I practice. This? Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 48:18

Yeah. And I think something that I've just noticed is, um, it's not to say that like I'm free to feel anything, and so who cares? But it's also, you mentioned earlier like, okay, I'm really drawing upon this self pres instinct to be consistent and to like be uncomfortable with that and to build these, you know, consistencies and, and all of those things. And, and so it's not like. Jumping in, okay, I have to apply this extreme rigidity or I have to apply this extreme permissiveness. Like there is that compassion and taking care of yourself and the community and the work that you're wanting to do. Um, holding both.

Nhien Vuong: 49:04

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. And, um, in what you spoke to, uh, why I have a, uh, it's a love hate relationship with like social media posting about Enneagram, which, you know, like kind of like. Things taken out of context, things in, you know, these, these little soundbite ways of saying, oh my God, free, okay, I'm gonna be free. I do anything I want. You know, kind of, you know. But like in the context, I think about like the whole book and what it's designed to support, which is if you, if we really go within. Like, like, can we trust that what is within is deeply good? That, that what is within purifies and, and that is different from the personality.'cause I, I hear sevens, you know, behind what you're saying, free, you know, like, I just don't wanna, want, want fun, you know, kind of. But the seven going in, like, there's a steadiness, the sobriety, the virtue of the seven that shifts. There's a groundedness that where, you know, what's that song? The freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose, you know? The seven doesn't ever get to possess any moment of life. Ever get to really have any moment when the compulsion of the types need for, um, unlimitedness causes them to not be free to actually

Stephanie Barron Hall: 50:18

Settle in. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Nhien Vuong: 50:21

To savor, to, to be here actually, ever. To have the moment and, and so, so that opening to a larger notion of what freedom means, you know? Yeah. So vital. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 50:35

Yeah, yeah. Um, okay. If our listeners are listening, and I'm sure they're loving this, um, where can they find you and connect with you?

Nhien Vuong: 50:43

Yes. Um, evolving enneagram.com. Um, and also now that I'm an author, I have my own author website, so that's Nien, N-H-I-E-N, hyphen VUON g.com as well. So, um, and of course, and all my, all my. Social media is, is evolving enneagrams, so yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 51:07

All of that will be linked up in the show notes and your book is called, the Enneagram of the Soul.

Nhien Vuong: 51:13

Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 51:14

So I will definitely link that and I am really looking forward to getting it as well. Um, but before I let you go, I have two final questions that I ask everyone.

Nhien Vuong: 51:23

Okay.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 51:24

So the first one is, tell me about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year.

Nhien Vuong: 51:34

So there have been many books in the past year, but the book that I think, um, is, was meant. For me to help me meet this moment of life the most is Sapiens. Um, it's a brief history of humankind by Yuval Noah Harra. I hope I'm pronouncing the name right, like rad. I mean, I mean this person's like religion is just the myth, you know? So, like, as a minister, like, but I, I felt like it was so important to read this. The reason it feel so important for me is number one. I'm not great at history, so it was really good to really get this overview of how things developed over time. But one thing that he said that really struck me was this idea that even. Everything we create is based on myth, like that money, right? As soon as we stop valuing money, if someone, if we all decided money's not valuable, all the money that people are hoarding, right, like is not, has no value. We have a shared notion of something's value. And what this helps me to do in this present moment is, my gosh, in this. In the midst of so much polarity, right? Especially if we think we're pretty thoughtful. I tend to think I'm pretty thoughtful and reflective and so maybe I'm right, but, but to really question my own assumptions, I. To really look at the basic underlying stories that I'm telling myself by which I judge another life like that has really created even more spaciousness within me to hold differences of opinion with, with an honoring, um, with an honoring heart and, and an open minds. Yeah. So I feel like his book has, was really timely for me. It's an older book, but I read it last just in like. December, so, yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 53:35

I'll check it out. I haven't read that one.

Nhien Vuong: 53:36

Ooh, so good.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 53:38

Um, okay. Last question. Um, tell me a piece of advice that has really stuck with you.

Nhien Vuong: 53:45

Okay, so, uh, in the 12 step rooms, there's a saying, keep coming back. It works if you work it. And, and so for me, that's not, I used to read tons and tons of books and wonder why my life wasn't changed. I was like, oh, I have to practice meditation, so, oh, I can just read about meditation. It works if you

Stephanie Barron Hall: 54:10

you work it, yeah.

Nhien Vuong: 54:12

so, so practice.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 54:15

Yeah, that's really good advice. And I think, you know, as somebody who loves to read as well, there can be that sense of like, oh, I'm just gonna devour all of this stuff and it's gonna change me. And it's like, no, no, it's not about the devouring that changes you and, and that can be shocking for those of us who just wanna get onto the next thing.

Nhien Vuong: 54:36

So fantastic. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 54:39

Well thank you so much for joining me. This has been really great and I am really looking forward to your new book coming out. Um, and I hope all of our listeners will pick up a copy as well.

Nhien Vuong: 54:49

Yeah. Thank you so much.

Steph Barron Hall: 54:51

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify