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Hello and welcome to Enneagram in Real Life, the podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host, Steph Barron Hall, and on today's episode I have a little something different. Um, I was recently a guest on the Enneagram podcast called Around The Circle. Around the circle is hosted by Jeff and TJ, and they invited me on to talk about my new book, enneagram in real life and we broke down this concept of thresholds that I introduced in the book, and I really loved this podcast interview. I really appreciated the opportunity and the, the amount of space they offered to really break down this concept. And it kind of became almost like a masterclass in this particular section of the book. And as a result, they released about half of this episode on. Their podcast feed and the rest was on Patreon only. But they've so graciously allowed me to release the entire thing for you. So here you're gonna hear an extra long podcast interview, um, which I so rarely get to do, but, it's really a fun thing to have this. Length of teaching Incorporated, and so I'm gonna play the entire episode in its entirety and I really encourage you to check out. The podcast around the circle. You can also find them on Instagram. So I will link up everything in the show notes below. Um, but it was a great conversation. We talked about a little bit of the background of why I wrote the book, which you've heard a little bit here already. But, um, we also talked about what it's like to. Be in relationships. So having three of us on and all three of us being very knowledgeable in the n agram, we were able to talk a little bit about the relational dynamics that we're all bringing. TJ and I both talked about having, uh, partners who are sixes and what that's like. So it was really fun. It was a really great conversation and I really hope you'll enjoy. So even if you don't get to sit down and listen to it all in one go, definitely bookmark your place and come back for more because I think you'll really, really enjoy this podcast episode. And thanks again to TJ and Jeff for allowing me. To share this, and check out all of their info in the show notes now onto the show. I'm Jeff Cook, and I'm TJ Wilson. And this is around the circle. I'm walking slowly, I'm taking my beautiful life. The Enneagram is a map of the human personality. It's a tool for navigating relationships. It creates language for what motivates us and helps us look at the way we look at everything else. Most importantly, the enneagrams a Mirror. 'cause sometimes you need help seeing yourself. My name's Jeff Cook. I'm a longtime professor of philosophy in Greeley, Colorado. And with me is TJ Wilson, coffee Guru Lover Theology and Enneagram Ninja. Hello my man. Hey, we are starting the year off with a new friend. Yes. Stephanie Barron Hall is with us. Steph is a three and the founder of Nine Types Co. Where she seems to be coaching everybody and like, like all over the world. It's true. So is this right? Where was the last place that you went? Well, um, I have a client, a repeat client who, um, they're in India. So I've been, come on, been coaching them and it's a lot of fun. Tj, would you get on that in terms of free travel to foreign lands? Ah, sure. Finding, uh, yep. Okay. Yep. People will pay, pay for that. Friends, uh, for those of you who dunno, Steph's work, um, she wrote a fantastic book called The Enneagram and Love a few years back. Very good, very much worth picking up. And her next book, the Enneagram in Real Life, which is named after her excellent podcast, is releasing in February. Uh, so Stephanie, we are thrilled to start the year off with you. So welcome. Thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to be on an Enneagram specific podcast. Hey, what was, what, what type of podcasts are inviting you on all sorts? Um, and I, I love that too, but I do get the same questions, like mm-hmm. What do you mean your type never changes? How could that be possible? Which types are compatible and mm-hmm. Those questions, I just, you know, or I go around the circle with the basics. This type is motivated by this and they like to avoid bl blank, you know, so. Mm-hmm. It's fun to dig in. It's all intro. Yeah, I was watching something yesterday with Johnny Carson talking about how terrified he is when he's a guest on other people's shows. 'cause he's so used to being a guest and the basics questions terrify me or I'm like, how would you actually describe a seven? And so, uh, so anyway, well done. You're you're doing the heavy lifting for the rest of us. Yeah. Mm-hmm. In 30 seconds or less. In 30 seconds or less. This is right. Well, the book's not out, but I spent the weekend with your book and thoroughly enjoyed myself. There's, there's a lot to say here. We'll obviously dive deep into one topic and go around the circle with it. But you've written an Enneagram book already. Mm-hmm. Why write a second Enneagram book? What was, what's uh, what was it that, that needed to get on paper? Well, what was really enticing to me about this was one that I got to have a lot more creative control. My very first book, the publisher came to me that said, here's the title, here's the outline, go for it. This book, I came up with all of that kind of from my own idea generating and things like that. And the book actually started a number of years ago, um, as a course. So several years ago I did all of this like audience, um, surveying and, and interviewing and everything. And I found that the questions that people really had were, one, I know my type, now what. And then two, when I would actually sit down with them and talk with them about their type, they didn't have enough information about the core aspects of the type which are covered in the book, um, to really be able to understand and apply it. So in my business, I've done hundreds of typing interviews, which is awesome because, you know, you guys I think will love this, but I have a standardized set of questions, and I have so much data where people of all types have answered the same questions. Mm-hmm. Um, and then people would leave those interviews and say, well, I'm not successful enough to be a three. I'm not perfect enough to be a one, et cetera. And I would say, you know, maybe get off Instagram for a second and like, let's actually dig into the type itself. Right. Um, and so that's where this idea really came from. Bang, I've been, uh, trying to find, get people to answer questions about like, like what happens when you, like, there's gotta be incompetent threes out there. Right? There has to be. And so like, what, what do we do when we incorporate those people into the telling and, yeah. Because all, all the threes that we know are like, they're, they're crushing it. Right. And yeah. But then you have a three like me who, you know. I've been binging Grey's Anatomy, so now I'm like, oh, well I actually do know about blah blah, blah, to be fair. Mm-hmm. I don't think I'm a doctor, but I could see how a three would just like, get down that, that rabbit trail in their little ego would be like, I'm a doctor now. Yeah. You know, one of the things that I can, a lot of folks that I've talked to in kind of Enneagram world and studies and especially publication, eventually come to the spot where they're like, well, what's the next thing? But it seems like you have like introductory studies and then you have relationship books, and that's, that's pretty much what we do here at Agram World. Mm-hmm. The thing that I really appreciate about what you just said and what seems to me to be just screaming for attention is actually sitting down with people, uh, a lot of them and getting data. Yeah. And feedback and moving away from Instagram missed, uh, you know, um, stereotypes and moving into actual language from actual people who can identify their motive in worthy ways. And so I'm thrilled. That was, that was one of the things that hit me from your book that came out was the shift in emphasis towards what seemed to be like actual language from actual people. And so, um, anything else on that? Like, do you continue to do that or was that just a season? Like how, how do you go about doing interviews and gathering data? Yeah, so in, in some ways the interviews, um, in the sense of typing interviews, I do them all the time. Um, and. So it, it is gathering data in a sense. Like I'm learning something from people, but it also is a service that I'm just, you know, sharing. Okay. The evidence points to this. Mm-hmm. And what's really helpful about doing so many is I can say, you know, most people and don't bring up this specific word unless they're this type. Um, that's not, I'm not gonna hang the entire typing on that one piece, but it can be helpful for people to hear things like that. Um, and just having those conversations. So I do continue to, to do them. And I'm always learning from, whether that's the people that I'm doing typing interviews with, or when I go and work with corporate and, and people share things. They share stories, they share their experiences or their perspectives, even if they share. I actually don't agree with what's on the slide right there, you know, that's, that's really helpful for me. Um, so yeah, I'm always kind of learning more. Did, did you do that, uh, just to back up, when you did your relationship book, part of your, uh, uh, a large part of your relationship book is on the combinations mm-hmm. Between types, so ones and fours, sevens and eights, et cetera, who are in relationship. Did you end up having conversations with couples? I did, uh, surveys. Okay. Yeah. So primarily surveys just because that's a lot more couples, a lot more people find, um mm-hmm. But I primarily focused on, um, specific aspects of it. Like I asked a lot about intimacy, um mm-hmm. And how people define intimacy and those sorts of things. The reason I'm bringing up the, the, your first book is because for those of you out there who have been begging us for our MISTYPING chart mm-hmm. Which is, is in the works, but will take a while, Steph's book is fantastic. Secondarily as a mistyping chart, if you just go to the combination pages of, I might, uh, of ones and fives in relationship, and then you say, which of these ways do I wanna experience intimacy? It, it is probably as good as anything you'll find in terms of like finding your type if you, if you know you're one of two types. So just as a plug first book is excellent, you should buy both. Thanks. Uh, I would be really fascinated to like, look to like sift through some of that data. That sounds so interesting. And like what you were saying about like, this person says this one word doesn't work for me. Or like the, like all of those nuances Right. Are, are so beautiful and, and they can only serve to deepen our understanding of this incredibly complex but also very simple system. Right, right. So, yeah, I, I've done, um, some. Consulting work that is not including the Enneagram. Mm-hmm. Um, and sometimes I'll even do that portion first and then bring in the Enneagram. So recently I did, um, communication core values. So looking at what are your core values in communication specifically. And I had everyone's Enneagram results in front of me as they were saying, these are my three core values. Mm-hmm. And I was like, mm-hmm. Yep. 8, 6, 1, like, just going down the list. Um, like yeah, that checks out. And those are some things that are really interesting that people are really, maybe they don't choose the exact same words, but the three words that they choose together create this concept. And that's really useful. Mm-hmm. Um, in typing and in understanding each other. Yeah. Love that. I wanna breach it. We may talk about subtypes and instincts a bit later. Um, you, I don't know if you're familiar with, with our work on this, but we're theoretically we're, we're, we have a different take or we're gonna be part of the problem in terms of saying people should wait quite a bit. However, the thing that's hitting me is you're, is you're talking is given the amount of FaceTime that you have with actual folks talking through their types and numbers, do you see dominant instincts really coming forth in those conversations? Or is it the case that that's an add-on that comes later in when you're doing that initial work? Yeah, it helps a lot with typing because, um, if somebody. Seems like a one, but I really can't determine which subtype they are of type one. Mm-hmm. That gives me pause. Right? That's an indication, Hey, maybe I need to look at this again. And maybe I think, oh, self press three, social six, some of these other mistypes that are common. Um, and then also for some people it actually, like, I think it, it doesn't make that big of a difference, but for some people, like the ones I was mentioning earlier who said, I'm too much a, I'm not enough of a perfectionist to be a one, or I'm not successful enough to be a three. Typically for them, they need to see the subtypes to really feel like they land on their type. Um, and for me, I think the subtypes were really powerful in helping me to explore that further and understand what it, what really is the work that I need to be doing. That's a fabulous answer, and I think that we would affirm most of that. But do you, have you got that su Yeah. I, I am one of those people that the subtypes isn't very helpful because I, I move through them so much and so fluidly in my life, and, um, that does not mean that I am healthier than anyone else. It just means that I don't necessarily have a dominant subtype. So I come, coming from that perspective, I have to represent the, the people that like subtypes isn't useful for, and, uh. I think also that we're experiencing within like the literature and the, the people who are doing good work we're experiencing and expanding, and also uhis filing of the language and the understanding of what the instincts are in the first place. So I, 10 years ago, I don't think, I, I think that like the fact that the, the idea that subtypes muddy everything was very true. And we are starting to get to a place where it's, it's not as muddy anymore because we're understanding it better. So we're teaching it better. So I'm interested to see where we're going. But also representative of the other side that subtypes, they, they make everything messy and also they aren't as important as some people say. They're so Sure. Yeah. And I think that also depends on different types too, sometimes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Would fully affirm that if you were the one typing others, that having a a, a strong knowledge of, of the dominant instincts is really gonna be helpful. Mm-hmm. And especially for the reasons stated and even saying to those who are new to this, so there's a certain variation on your type and it looks like this. That can also be incredibly helpful. Mm-hmm. To be consistent. If I'm a one you say consistency's gonna be a, a very important thing. So it's saying it so that I can let it go. Steph's book's great. The, the, as I was reading it, I was think, I was trying to envision who, like the perfect audience for this book is, and in my mind it's actually the person who's probably a Enneagram informed and has been for a while, and they get a chance to take a break, which TJ and I elevate frequently that you, you should take some months off if you get into to this and then, and then come back with fresh eyes to do work. Because if you're using the Enneagram, it can be entertainment on one side, but if you wanna do work, taking the break and then coming back, that, that is a ridiculously helpful practice. And I don't know of a resource that's better for that person than what I saw in your book. I think your book would be fantastic for that person and specifically for those who have done the upfront work and then have actually created space where they can jump into. Instincts and subtypes and, and the rest. A lot of the stuff that we'll, we'll talk about, um, in test books ends up being very practical, very question driven, very, um, okay, here's something that you need to commit to, kind of activities. All of that just, uh, very helpful. Couldn't name another resource that really fits that spot. So I'm really glad that, that you put pen to paper here and you're serving the rest of us. Thanks. Got any thoughts on that, tj, before, before I jump into our, our big topic here. I mean, before we really jump in, there is one more thing I really need to bring up. I specifically went through and listened to like snippets here and there of, of, uh, just to get a, a sense of how you talk and stuff. And the first episode that I listened to sort of opened, uh, like in the relative beginning you talked about Leslie Knope being a two and I have with many other people around me, I have been certain that Leslie Knope is a three for years. And, uh, Jeff's wife is also a three. And we regularly make comments about how she's exactly like Leslie and hope, like there's just so much similarity there. And then you said the thing that blew my mind, which was this is what it looks like when an eight plays a two and is like, ah, I've been wrong this whole time. Mic drop. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and so forever, I'm not just typing Amy Poer, she went on Seth Meyers and talked about the Enneagram and talked about how she's innate. And um, yeah, I think because there are times watching her, I'm like, she's supposed to be so people oriented and caring, but she has this side that's a bit too intense for a two. Mm-hmm. And that's why I think you could make the argument of type three, um. But when you recognize, oh, she's an eight and so she's playing this character, that's, that's where I feel like social too is the best fit. Yeah, it's brilliant. I I, I'm not necessarily conceding the argument, but I'm definitely thinking about it differently. We can, we can fight about that offline. If you wanna see Polar as an eight, you gotta see her early characters. She plays a character that stands up, that's has like these massive braces who stands up in the middle of people's shows and starts yelling at the, the people on stage. Oh my gosh. It's hilarious. But that's like you will when see that character, you're like, there she is. That's the eight character. Yeah. And it's, it's glorious. Anyway, provocateur, so this is around the circle. We pick a topic, we go around the circle. Steph has, to my knowledge, and it, it sounded like this in terms of what you wrote, created, um, an idea. That I really resonated with. And, uh, she applied it to each of the types. And I, I'm, I have no idea where this conversation's gonna go, but her idea is called threshold. Uh, beg your patience for two seconds on this. That many of us know Enneagrams study is kind of a framework for talking about your inner life, but once you understand your type, it blows open a whole host of different topics, different underlying patterns, um, different, you know, ways of like questions being addressed inside of yourself. And many of you have been, you know, our podcast listeners will know that we've done things on say the virtues, vices, the hazards. There's, there's all these ways that each of the types kind of manifest themselves in a topic. And the topic that Steph created was, is called Thresholds. And I love this idea. I would, I would love to just set you up as, can you talk about what you mean by thresholds and then we'll talk about each of the types in turn. Sure. Um, so the best way to kind of explain it is how it came about. So I was actually working with a team, um, and this team, there were a lot of eights and I think it was like three eights and a three. Then they had this nine who was actually the liaison between this team and the rest of the organization. And they were always getting this feedback, you're so unapproachable, like you're so difficult to talk to or bring things to, or were intimidated by you. Um, and this team really needed that to not be the case. And so I was having a conversation with, um, this team and I said, and it just like kind of came to me in that moment of, oh, what's happening here is that eights have a higher threshold for what feels like conflict. So imagine an eight has a conflict threshold that's like above eyebrow level and um, somebody else, a different type has a threshold for conflict. That's, you know, shoulder height. Well imagine something's happening between those two. Um, you have a conversation, the eight walks away thinking, we just had a great conversation. The other person walks away thinking, oh, we just had a fight. Mm-hmm. And this really opened up this conversation for this team because they started realizing, oh yeah, that makes sense. Because the other day I had a talk with somebody in the conference room, and then I was like, oh, you wanna go to lunch? And then they said, no. And then I saw them crying in the hallway and just realizing like, we're not trying to be insensitive. We're just having these, these conversations and we're being direct and, and we're really approaching things in the best way we think possible. And then unwittingly having, you know, all of this. Damage that that's occurring. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't mean that the aid is bad or wrong, but it's a good thing for them to be aware of. And it's a good thing for other people to be aware of, to, to recognize, oh, if they are mad, they will let me know. And so I started developing this concept and kind of like workshopping it a little bit. And somebody said to me, oh, it's kind of like, uh, Dan Siegel's window of, to Windows of Tolerance. And so if you're familiar with that, that work at all, Dan Siegel kind of talks about how, um, we have windows of tolerance where we can stay regulated, and when we're outside those windows, we get dysregulated. This concept is a little different because I'm not as much talking about regulation, like, um, being self-regulated for, for individual people, but more so just talking about for these types. These are some of those things that they get overwhelmed by, or they get triggered by, or, okay, that's it. I just have to say something now. Those sorts of experiences, so not quite as, um, clinical or, you know, related to necessarily mental health as what Dan Siegel talks about. Um, but that was the, the genesis of the entire idea of it. The, I I feel like, like I, I read about this and I immediately made sense and sort of like clicked, like this is now a thing that we are going to incorporate into our Enneagram understanding. Agree. And I agree. I think it's even a, it's even a better way to understand something that, that I've been really passionate about, which is like. For, uh, assertive or independent types, the three sevens and eights, there's part of them being disconnected from that heart center is that they don't understand their impact on other people. And another way to say that is that the eights threshold for conflict is so much higher than everyone else's. And so they don't think they're in a fight. They, they don't un, they literally do not think that whatever's happening is actually conflict. Right. And, and the rest of us do. We are impacted by that. And some of us are impacted significantly by that. And so we think that that person is a jerk. And it's like, no, no, your, my threshold is low and theirs is really high. Mm-hmm. And that, I love this. It's a great way to understand this concept. And I love that, that it's, you incorporate something true about each type into the, I like thresholds exist for all of us. That's great. Yeah. So then I thought about, um, you know, we all have these high thresholds for certain things and then low thresholds for other things. So it started with type eight, and then I, you know, kind of went around the circle, posted some reels about it on Instagram actually, and got a lot of really awesome feedback from people saying, yeah, this is true, or, no, not quite, or, I don't understand what you mean by this. And so that just kind of developed it further. Love it. I think that what, what I see, and we'll go through each of the types again, but one of the things that I see with high thresholds is it's not just that you have a lot of capacity here, but you also have a lot of desire for that space. Um, many, many of us have a, a strong desire for the things that are gonna be on the list for, for our high threshold. And the opposite is true of our low threshold. Um, you have lists on avoidance. Uh, we could put forth lists on fears. Mm-hmm. Uh, for each of the types. Those sorts of things are gonna play into some of these as well. But very, the really the, it's worth the price of the book just for, um, the, the lists that stuff put together here, um, in, and, uh, we are not gonna cover both of them. 'cause you have two high thresholds and two low thresholds for each types. But why don't we, why don't we save one just to just, it's a breadcrumbs out there or it's a, what do you call that? It's a lure. It's, you need to buy the book. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Um, but you start, you, uh, well you start your book with eights. Mm-hmm. Um, Enneagram informed person that you are, we're starting with the eights. Do you have a, a reason why you like starting with the eights? I just like to keep the intelligence centers together. I just think it's great. Yep. Yeah. And what eights do though that I love is that if they don't agree, they push back. And that is such a good model for everyone else in the room to say, oh, I don't have to just swallow all of this. I can push back. And say, I don't agree, and then we can talk about it. And they actually get more out of the session that way. That's excellent. You gotta get people speaking. Yeah. It's a assertive type that you are and assertive type. They are. It's gonna, I guess that's true's gonna move things forward. The, the problem with starting with the ones is you end with the nines who always get the, the shortest amount of time. And this is a mistake, isn't it, tj? Oh yeah. Because we're often forgotten. And then it just reinforces that feeling of forgottenness. Mm-hmm. And I do like to go back to nines too, at the end. So I, I ask everyone to share. You give them double time. I do because they, when, when they first hear everything, they're like, I don't, I don't know what to say. Mm-hmm. So they need time to process and then we come back and then, you know, they have more to share and they have really good insights. It's delightful. Uh, I agree with this, this framing, starting with the eights. If it was possible to start with the sevens and then go around and leave the sixes for the end, because the sixes, then you can say, okay, you've heard everybody. Now let's talk about you and you'll actually see you. Yeah. Is, is also quite helpful. Uh, but eights, you already mentioned it, eights starting out have a high threshold for conflict in your, uh, just some fresh words. Um, anything else we're, we're saying about that other than what we just said? No, I think it's what we talked about that we, yeah, no, I think that's good. Um, I think the other big part of that though is that if there is conflict, I. They are mad, they will let you know. Mm-hmm. So you don't have to worry about it otherwise. Mm-hmm. I suppose on the flip side, we can start, start there. On the, the low threshold for eights. What, what comes to your mind first? Well, I think certainly the betrayal and the incompetence. Um, so with betrayal though, I think because eights are so tough, sometimes people don't recognize how sensitive they can be and they'll, you know, an eight gets vulnerable and then somebody makes a joke and that is like, oh, I am never ever going to do that again for the eight. Mm-hmm. You got thoughts on these, Steve? Yeah. I, I also think like about the incompetence idea. It, I, I so often see it's not even like be people being incapable, but particularly people not doing things they are capable of. Oh yeah, yeah. Like, like intentional incompetence is just like, they have no threshold for that. No, not at all. And it's, uh, I hate it. As I'm looking at the two, the thing that strikes me is that there's many people who have relationships with that may be averse to getting into conflict with them because they might feel like they were. Betraying them, and this is exactly the wrong move. These actually go together. Mm-hmm. The, the eight is picking a fight with you in order to see whether or not you're on their team. And those, those overlap. And so they're expo the eights function, kind of like a, you know, like a bat. They have a radar. The, the conflict serves as understanding where they are in the world, specifically on whether or not you're reliable. Are you strong enough to handle me? Will you be with me in the future if things go sideways, can you handle me at my worst? And that's all getting put forth out there with that high. Again, kind that high threshold for conflict is what I read in your, in your lists there. Yep. Exactly. Boom. Any, any, any other words on aids? No. Boom. Uh, this is a side note. Well, we have lots. I, I do wanna say one more thing about the, uh, like high threshold for conflict. Uh, 'cause I, I like coming back to you, you said that something about, it doesn't matter what you said 'cause I can't remember it. The, but the. There is a sense of like eights want to address the problem mm-hmm. Quickly and get over it so that we can move on. Yeah. And like one of the things that we teach is that, that eights, once they deal with, once they put the anger out there, it's gone. So eights can have a fight with someone and then go to lunch with them. Right, right. And and I think part of that, like the idea of the high threshold for conflict means that like once things get below that threshold, it's not conflict anymore. Right. It doesn't feel like mired in the emotional stuff. Yeah. Right. Right. A lot of us are gonna be processing for days, weeks, like we might be angry about something for years that like, it was one conversation that we had years ago and we're still holding onto that and eights don't wanna be weighed down by all of that luggage, you know? And like the, their high threshold means that they get through the conflict and then it's over. And, and what I can say about that, that's so tricky for eights is that when that happens, when they find out this person I was close with has been stewing on this for years and they never brought it up and now they're bringing it up, that feels like betrayal. Mm-hmm. Yes. Um, so like to, to Jeff's point, like they are. You know, kind of intertwined in a sense. Mm-hmm. One thing that I think we'll see through a lot of these, I know it comes up with nines, is that there's a problem solving strategy for each of the types, what we call coping styles. And that comes out here. The, the eights solve problems emotionally, eights gonna pause for a minute and be very assertive about the emotional connection that they have with the small circle that they have around them when solving problems that seems to come out mm-hmm. Here on both sides, high and low. Mm-hmm. You would think those are polars and they're not, they're part of the same way of getting their motive in the world. Yeah. Not feeling vulnerable, feeling like they're strong and in control. Yes. This high threshold for, for conflict is what feels like conflict. So it takes a lot to get there, but eights do not want to sit around and just like swim in conflict. They do not enjoy that. They would rather be comfortable. So that's, you know, where we're talking about, they wanna get it over with and like move on because they don't like to have unresolved conflict. Right. I imagine we could, we could talk about how feeling repression works in that space. Especially, again, the primary motive being, I don't wanna feel vulnerable, I wanna feel like I'm not being controlled by others. Mm-hmm. All those emotions are gonna get translated into anger and that again, notice there's the sweet spot between high threshold for conflict and a desire not to be betrayed. Yeah. Bang. See such a great window into each of the types nines. Yeah. Uh, you wanna talk about the, the high and low threshold of the nines there? Sure. So high threshold, um, I frame this as relentless optimism, and what I mean is that nines tend to have a high threshold for disorder in the sense that they are optimistic that things are going to work out, things will be okay, even when other people see disrepair. So sub nines really resonate with that cartoon of the, this is Fine Dog by Casey Green. They're just like, this is fine. And it's not to say they're not aware of the problems. Um, and tj I'm sure you can correct me if I'm wrong on this or if you have a different experience. No, that's, but sometimes they just think everyone makes such a big deal out of everything and it doesn't really need to be like that. And they can just turn the volume down on some of those things. And so they have that high threshold and they're able to be like, yeah, but it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be fine. And I'm like, it is not fine. And the nine are like, it is, it's gonna be fine. Um, yeah. So I think that that can be a skill that they have too. Yeah, I don't gravitate toward the word optimism, uh, because I'm not naturally an optimist. Uh, but, but there, there is a sense of that openness to like, we, we don't know how this thing is gonna land yet, so let's wait until it lands to see what happens. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. Positivity requires a whole lot less energy. In my experience, especially ignoring problems requires a lot less energy in my experience. For you dismissing the fact that anything needs done that burns way less calories. That's, that's how, that's how I read that. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I've found myself a lot in a, this like low nine space. Um, just, I kind of get there when I'm like stressed and I have way too many things on my plate, and I'm like, it'll work out how it works out. Yeah. And some things will get done and some things won't, and in the end it won't matter. Yeah. Though, as a three, I'm still like, in the end it will be terrible. But yeah. It, it's no bad thing to, to look through this list through the spectrum mm-hmm. Of stress moves as well. I actually think that's incredibly helpful. My favorite stress move to watch is the three stress move from three space to nine space. Like, oh, okay, you're in bed all day now. It's like, it's, this is a sudden shift in our house. Yeah. It's different. Um, yeah. And then the low threshold, um, obviously conflict, um, I think is the one that is talked about the most though here. I'd love to talk with you guys just a little bit about the other one that I, I named, which is identifying similarities. Do, and this came up after teaching. Um, I taught through the whole Enneagram at the very end. I said, what stood out to you? You know, and I, I give people, I make people uncomfortable. I give a lot of time for people to think of what they wanna say. So finally a nine spoke up. Um, and, and what I mean by that is like, I, I let there be silence and then people are like, oh no, I guess I have to say something. And this nine. Somebody else said, I was just thinking we're so different. And the nine popped up and said, actually, I was just thinking we're all so similar, like, and they found threads of commonality through all the types. Mm-hmm. Um, I think that's a skill that nines have too. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with that. Uh, and it, and we are at the top of the Enneagram. Mm-hmm. So we get to see everyone else more clearly. Uh, but also we, it means we don't see ourselves as clearly, as clearly. Um, but that, that idea that like I, I do see, and, and even within like within typing conversations that I might have with other people, I see similarities of the way that they're describing something, being like the thing that they're saying is not true. Like this is actually a big part of why Jeff and I have so many conversations about language is because I see the similarity within the one word that he doesn't like to the concept that's actually true. And like that is all over the place. With nines, we see the way that things connect to each other. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think one of the downfalls of it is not being able to see that you are a distinct person, right? Mm-hmm. Like that you have a contribution to make, or that you have something that makes you inherently like worthy and desirable. That I think nine sometimes miss that. A couple things that strike me here. That sounds to me like a virtue, the way that it's being presented, that I, the ability to identify similarities being a virtue. It may appear that low threshold is somehow a negative, but apparently that's not the case. Yeah, no, I'm, I mean, I think they're both kind of neutral. Just good to know. Yeah. There you go. Mm-hmm. Yep. I suppose I didn't think about it the other side of that skill being identified here, um, it seems to me what, what I heard there is that nine's abilities to identify similarities is paired with their, um, desire for conflict free environments. Uh, and if, if, uh, if somebody can showcase where there is mutuality and overlap in, um, both in, in perhaps target schools, um, who you are in the world, don't you both realize that you both lost your fathers when you were young will cut through a fight very fast, but a nine will see that. It's like, you know what, this is why. Why you are going the directions that you are. Mm-hmm. Past tools probably, uh, being employed there and, um, yeah. And again, just, uh, peace is a lot, a lot less, uh, it takes a lot less calories than war. Yeah, true. I hear war is expensive. Yeah. Though one of the nines I interviewed talked about how if people are having some simmering disagreement beneath the surface, that she is like, look, just don't bring it up. You can have that disagreement and as long as we don't talk about it, I'm fine. Um, and I thought that was really interesting because when I think of peace and harmony, I think of no disagreements, no discord, but this nine was talking about how she's like, just don't let it surface when I'm in the room. Um, which I also think is a good distinction from twos because I think twos are more willing to be like, oh, I see this happening and I'm gonna fix it. And nine are like, let's just keep the peace. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If this is a big enough deal, then we can deal with it later. Right. Even though later it's not a point in time. This isn't a positive or a negative. There's an intuitive, uh, predisposition of nines to say most problems will solve themselves. And this is notices how that overlaps. We talked about stress moves, notices, how that would overlap with the nine stress move. It's when anxiety actually pops. That's it has an energy of, no, now I probably need to do something about this. Um, but until then I could probably sit and Yeah. And it's, it's, it's grade school science. Everything is trying to reach an equilibrium and, and homeostasis. The universe itself is trying to reach a homeostasis. And if we just wait long enough, the pessimistic way of articulating that is everything is dying. Yeah. And exactly. It's gonna become cold. Why are we fighting about these again? We're all gonna burn up in the sun. Even dust. You are into dust. You are will return is apparently one of those things. It's outlined real early on and meanwhile the nines are watching like threes out here on earth trying to earn their, you know, right. To exist. And they're like, well that's exhausting. I'm not doing that. Yep. Mm-hmm. I like gold stars, Steph. I'll have, you know. Alright. Threes in once we're earning our right to exist. The, any of you eights that wanna jump on board, you're welcome. Um, they don't have to earn it though. They got it speaking. Yeah. Speaking of ones. Who will spend only a short amount of time on, uh, you wanna talk about high and low threshold for one? Sure. So, uh, high threshold for effort. Um, in that once have a high threshold for what feels like enough effort. Like I was commenting, uh, listeners, I was commenting before we went on air. This is the most prep I've ever been given for a podcast interview and I've done like 60, 70 podcast interviews. The three is saying that this is like the best prep. Yes. The best prep. Um, and I think that once have that tendency to be like, oh, I could just do like a little bit more. Um, and so they, they always put more effort into whatever they're doing, uh, what's important to them. Um, and they wanna make things excellent. And so, you know, that can be a good thing. And then sometimes they can really overdo it or, you know, end up getting really frustrated when other people aren't doing enough. I have zero thoughts on that. You got that? No notes. No notes. Uh, I, you, you basically just described my whole relationship with Jeff, so, uh, well, and it's a good thing too when, when a one can be like, this is what I feel like is necessary. Mm-hmm. So I'm going to do it. And the other person can say, I love that you can do that. If that's what you feel like is necessary, you know, and decide. You, you enjoy repainting the house one. Yeah. I did not think that was necessary. Yeah. But, uh, it's also like in the sense of relationship building, like this is something that Jeff and I talk about a lot, that there is, if you're going to be partnered with a one, whether it's business partners or, or, or brothers or uh, or like a romantic partner or whatever, like if you are going to be in close relationship with a one, you're probably going to be building something together because they, they have a high threshold for like, what it takes to get things done. And that means you're gonna be helping them build it. You're gonna be helping them do the things that need to get done, and, and that is part of how they do relationship. Yeah. And I think that you just have to talk about expectations with ones because mm-hmm. And, and threes too. I'm, you know, I'm not saying I'm exempt from that, but like, I think talking about expectations with ones is really helpful. Mm-hmm. Because otherwise you will have conflict. Yeah. I'm finding, uh, that I'm becoming more and more blind to, to ones, and I've decided this is the type I know the least about be. Um, mostly because I, I lean so heavily into my intuitive knowledge of myself as opposed to actually talking to other ones about how this all works for them. My intuitive knowledge of myself on, on this front to wrap up the body triad here ends up being the. Where, where the eights are very aware of the threats to their autonomy, where nines are very aware of the threats to just feeling good in the world, one's intuitively in a similar way. And it's a similar to threes in some sense, that there's a, there's an intuitive sense that I need things to be moving forward if things are not moving forward. That means danger. That means that things, some, something isn't going well. There's something about slow, steady progress that makes me feel as though things are right with the world. And that can manifest in all kinds of different ways. But that's what I, what I see here. And so, and part of that's myself. I'm alive, thriving, not gonna get sick and die by the side of the road if I'm able to exert my will in the world over the things that I care about, specifically over myself first. Mm-hmm. And then that spills out into the rest of the world. That's, I suppose, how I read some of this. Yeah. Um, I think that's true. And I think sometimes ones, we don't talk enough about the efficiency piece of ones. Um, like, I think that's really, really strong. Uh mm-hmm. For ones, um, it's gonna be different, different from the three where the, there's a time element to the three in terms of efficiency. There is a, um, progress, even depthy. Side to efficiency. Like, I want this, I want this to matter, I want it to have base, I want it to, the foundational matters need to get taken care of. So my wife and I, um, have a real estate business, as it were. She's very aware of the, the face, the facade, the, all the things that folks can see. Nearly 80% of my time is dealing with contractors who are bearing through the earth, you know, putting into place very expensive things that nobody will ever notice. And yeah. But I do understand that if this doesn't get get done, like everything else doesn't function as it were. Right. And these are on my mind and what you said about slow and steady progress, that is not something three has gravitate toward. Right. So low threshold, get it done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Low threshold. So low threshold for ones. Um, this one trips a lot of people up. So one have a low threshold for criticism. And when I first shared this on Instagram, people were like, no way. Like a seven in particular was like, no way. They're so critical. And I was like, they are so much more critical of themselves. Mm-hmm. With maybe the exception of some sexual ones. And like that small remark that somebody makes, might, they might really internalize it and make them feel blamed or accused. And that's like the thing that they wanna avoid. Right. Um, and so. They can be critical of other people, but like, they feel really wounded when they feel criticized because look at what they just did. They did all that effort, and now you're telling them it wasn't enough. Um, and that can be really, really hard for ones got that seed. I mean, I, that's, I, I think that's a, um, a way to really bring up the, the reality that every single time you say something negative to a one about them or about something they've done, there's a really good chance that they've alway already been through it in their own mind. Like they've already gone through all of the things that you're trying to say to them, and there's a pretty good chance of they've also been harsher on themselves. Yeah. About it. And, and there's, there's, so e especially when leading or working with people that, like you're, you're producing something and you have to. Like, go over what happened. So like we, we were pastors together and like going, doing a postmortem every Sunday is a terrible idea for, for ones because they're already going through all of the things they did wrong last Sunday. They don't need to have a whole conversation with someone else about it. And, and so like coming to that with the knowledge that like the threshold for ones on this criticism point is, is so low that like you, it's, it's so much easier to say, Hey, did you know about this thing that went wrong? And they say yes. And you're like, okay, great. Done. It's, that problem is already solved. You don't have to like harp on it about harp on about it or anything. Yeah. They need a very light touch when it comes to that. Yeah. Yeah. And if even if you bring like seven things they did well and one thing they did wrong, they're not gonna hear the seven. Mm-hmm. Like, they, they will hear it and then immediately forget because then they'll be focusing on the one thing they did wrong. That never happens to threes by the way. Right? No, we only focus, no, we are, uh, our own worst critics as well. But the thing that I also have to think about is, you know, of course there are times when ones do need to be confronted for something that is going wrong. Mm-hmm. Um, and so Jeff, I'm curious how you would say this is a good way to do it. I was going to, to so to, to comment on this. I. The, that's actually, I don't, I don't know what the prescription is, but here's the insight. I think that especially those who are not body types need to see you. Heart types and head types. You'll know an eight, you'll have seen an eight. Unleash their anger on some soul who didn't deserve it, the identical anger that the aid has that goes outwards. Imagine that turned inwards at oneself. And that's where the one lives in that they have a target of their constant. Um, it, it, I don't want to use the word like fury or anything, but that, that energy is going inwardly consistently. And that's the, the what manifests sometimes as perfectionism is that. And so if, if unfortunately for, for those, the ones, uh, and those who love ones, if the criticism comes, what's really happening is you're jumping on top of that anger and you're riding that wave alongside it into the one, or you're giving more energy to the anger that's already going, going inward. Mm-hmm. So with that in mind, ones, you need to do your work. Mm-hmm. You need to do real work on yourself so that your relationships are better so that people can be honest with you. Yeah. And I, I, I realize, notice how I'm criticizing the one in order to get them to stop criticizing themselves this, this is a terrible doom loop that ones experience. Um, but there's something about, about healthy ones and unhealthy ones that you're probably gonna see here. Yeah. I mean, really if, if we think about the relationships that we have with ones that are unhealthy, it's probably in some, something like this space. So, yeah. Yeah. Um, I, with all that said, I have no idea how to talk to ones. Well, I think that's, that does answer my question in a sense, because what happens with unhealthy ones is they are so averse to feeling blamed or accused that they are incapable of acknowledging like. Somebody else having a complaint or a criticism. So yeah, they, they can't experience more pain than they already are feeling. And so they just psychologically like, block it out. Yeah. And it becomes, it turns into that, uh, the, the sensitive, the hypersensitivity of, of like, I, I already know that I messed that up. What, why are you bringing this to me now? Like, it, it, it sort of turns outward. Yeah. Yep. The other thing that, I mean, it just rolls. This is just one of those spots. Every type has this, it's a spot that's just a doom loop. And this just happens to be the one for ones. But if you bring up the past with ones, what you're actually doing is inviting them to get into their stress number, because ones are present oriented for the most part, but Foreignness has a voice and criticism specifically is gonna gonna be in that low four space. It's not high four space. There's lots of great things for ones in four space. But, but, but the, the place of criticism will, will kind, so that can be an uncomfortable, um, spot for, for the one to be in. And so one of the things that you'll see, and you may have seen this, the verbal processing that ones can do. It can often come out as very self-critical, but they're trying to beat you to the punch. They, they want everybody to know out there. Look, I realized that uh, X was broke and y was broken, Z was broke and that was probably on me. Don't say anything else 'cause I don't need you riding the wave of, of, of inward energy as it were. And the verbal processing can come out in those ways. Yeah. Um, I'm sure there's a great answer to how do you deliver criticism to a one? Um, well for starters, if you're not in a relationship with them and they don't trust that you care about them, you might as well skip it. Like that doesn't mean you have to be best friends with your employees who are one, like it, it means that they need to trust that you are, are wanting them to thrive. Yeah. And, and be more whole and that, that you care about and, and potentially that you think they're good already and here's a piece that might need to be worked on. Like, if you're coming to a one without any kind of foundation, then they're only going to be able to hear criticism. 'cause they don't have that thing to, to rest on, to know that, oh, this person doesn't hate me, they're just bringing me this thing. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, last word on that. 'cause I think that's, that's really valuable. What, what you're just doing is inviting a person to get defensive, that's actually what we'll probably spell out. Mm-hmm. They'll, the justifications will and justifications end up, you, you talked about this, don't you? Um, there are defense mechanisms for the one. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, another fantastic thing in Steph's book, by the way, is the list of defense mechanisms. And, and they might be defensive and then they go away and then they come back. Mm-hmm. Or they go away, they process, they internalize it, you know. Um, so yeah, that can happen. Ones are a lot more sensitive, I think, than, than we recognize. Yeah. Speaking of sensitive, let's talk about twos move on to heart types. All three heart types are, uh, pretty sensitive, I'd say. So, um, twos have a high threshold for expectations, um, and really demands that can be placed on them. Um, so they expect a lot of themselves, and when other people expect something of them, they really strive to meet or exceed those expectations. So they kind of think, oh, this is the way to establish rapport. I'm gonna impress these people. I'm going to show them, you know, how dedicated I am to this project or this relationship, or, or whatever it might be. Um. This is one of the things that 'cause people do get confused a lot between nines and twos, and this is one of the, the ways that I think nines and twos are really different. Um, they have a really different response to people demanding something of them. Um, TJ what would you say about that? I'd say when people demand something of me, that is, that is the way to get me to not do something, is to tell me that I have to Yeah. Yeah. Because nines are so independent. Yeah. Um, even though they're warm and relational, they still have that independent streak that's a little bit different from twos being like, yeah, I'm here. I'm gonna do it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well said. Yeah. Uh, you can, it one could easily imagine a picture like a, a child who intuitively understands like good gift giving, and then that gets reinforced and it grows and like they become better at it and they get, it gets reinforced and they become better at it and it gets reinforced. And then you have like a 30 something year old who is so good at getting things for other people. Yeah. And that is part of how they understand who they are. Mm-hmm. Is that, that they have this high, like the bar for them of like, what is too much to ask of me is really high. And like two unhealthy levels. Twos will do things that you, that they think you expect. Yeah. To an unhealthy degree. And yes. And, and I think it's interesting sometimes because I can get into to some conflict with, um, twos when they help me and I think, well, that was on you. I didn't ask for it. Right. And I didn't, you know, tell you that's what I wanted or whatever. And you're an adult and you can decide not to do that. Mm-hmm. And then later realizing, oh, that actually was a way that I could have had a more open conversation. Uh, maybe I could have approached that differently because they actually did have an expectation. And so that's, that's kind of their work. I don't need to jump into their brain and, and, and do that kind of work for them, but um, also for me as a friend to be aware of that tendency. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Talking a lot about the direction of energies. And actually helpful charts are available in Steph's book on this front. Um, step borrows the illustrations from Risso and Hudson, which showcase how each of the types energy is moving outward. We already talked about eight minute energy moving outward, one's moving inward. That's how This's gonna work with twos, twos energy is going. Outward. Mm-hmm. And as opposed to eights who are pushing outward to get control, twos are pushing outward in order to get attention. Mm-hmm. And they're doing so in these sorts of ways. What are the expectations? How can I meet them? How can I earn my place in this this spot? Yeah. And connection takes place if, if something is reciprocated. Right? And so on the flip side, the low threshold is rejection, right? Um, and it's not just like, choose wanna avoid rejection because we all kind of know that, but like, they're particularly sensitive to what feels like rejection. So things that you might not feel like are rejection, like dismissing their help or dismissing their affection or dismissing any attempt at building rapport or encouragement. Any of those things really feel for a two. Like I, my identity, my core self has been rejected. Um, which can really wound them. Um, and it can be really hard because as twos, if twos haven't done a lot of inner work yet, they are like, well, of course everyone needs my help and affection. What, what do you mean you don't want that? What do you mean I can't bring you something? Or, or whatever. Um, and so that's part of their work that they're doing is recognizing, oh, like it's okay for somebody to say, no, I don't need that, or No, I don't want that. And then for the two to be like, we're okay. And I'm okay. Um. And so that can be really, really tricky. Um, and when other people aren't aware of it, sometimes you might say, oh no, I can't get together for coffee today because I've got something else going wrong going on. Um, but for a two that can feel challenging if the, the other person doesn't say, Hey, but let's do it tomorrow. Something like that. Right. Right. We, we say, uh, no, I can't do that. They hear, you don't want to do that with me. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I hear it. It's, they're processing relationally. Two fours and sixes mm-hmm. Are gonna all process relationally. They're, they are processing through the connection that they have with the person in front of them based on the gift that they're giving. They're part of the ionist triad. So we already mentioned this. Two fives and eights are giving gifts outwardly in order to establish connections. And there it is. Are you connected to me? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think people don't realize this about twos because twos are so warm. They're always there for you. Right. So people don't think that they could get their feelings hurt that easily because twos don't like to show that stuff. They only show positive stuff a lot of the time unless they feel very safe. And so that can be really hard. Would you speak to what your experience of twos actually understanding that they're hurt in their own self sense of their own emotional life? Um. I think it can be hard. I think it can be something that they kind of block out. So one of the questions that I ask is, um, what happens when people don't like you? Mm-hmm. And I have worked with twos before who said, I don't, I don't know. I've never really had that experience. Um, and that's their genuine experience and also it's really intolerable for them to experience like that they don't like me because they're looking for that image and that likability and lovability to be mirrored back to them. Yeah. That's where they look for it. Yeah. We talked about the relentless optimism of nines. Mm-hmm. There the same again, there's a, there's a pairing here of sevens, twos, and nines. They're gonna, those sorts of problems of, of, of, of solving the problem optimistically or with a positive outlook is all over that response is what I hear. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Bang. Yeah. Threes. Let's go. Alright. So threes have a high threshold for productivity in that we don't think that there is a limit to how much we could conceivably accomplish in a day. Um, so doing is not just about working, but like anything, so this is, people always criticize me about this. They say, you only talk about workaholism or a nine to five job with threes. And I'm like, no, I'm categorizing all of our housework to-do list goals, commitments, all of those things as work. Those are the things that threes pay attention to, in addition to if they have a regular full-time, nine to five job. Um, so an example, the other day I was really tired. I went home, I had a little siesta, ate lunch, took a nap, and then I had to go back to my office. So, and then I had a call with some, an agram friends later in the night, and I was like, all right, I'm gonna get these two things done. Normally what would happen is I would have a list of 15 things I wanted to accomplish in the two hours that I had between my, my nap and my call. And then I would feel bad about myself because I didn't get it all done. And I said, no, I'm gonna do two things. And I told this to, to these Enneagram friends and they were like 15 things. Like, whatcha thinking like two things is more than enough. Like, you know, you could do one thing, you know? And, um, it's a huge blind spot that threes have. 'cause we just think, no, I should be able to get all of this stuff done. I've been, uh, pondering for, for most of my life. I'm a, I'm a late person. I, I come from people who are late people and, uh, like, it, like it, it's a family joke that my, my, anyway, um, the, there is something about. The way that like a lot of people, a lot of late people don't understand how long things take. Mm-hmm. And that's, that's certainly my issue. Like if, if it takes 10 minutes to go across town, it takes 10 minutes to go across town. But also I need to factor in the amount of time it takes me to put my shoes on and coat and get out the door. And now I have a 4-year-old that, like, she adds time to that. And also with traffic it takes 15 minutes and, but in my mind it's still 10 minutes. The similarly there is so much energy and let's say, uh, optimism about what, how, what threes think they're capable of. Mm-hmm. And, and so like coming at the world is like, there, there's so much opportunity to do things. Yeah. There's so many things that we can and should do. And, and by that I mean like we can do all of the groceries and all of the, all like groceries, dry cleaning, go to the bank. Like all of these things can be the morning tasks. And it's like, yeah. But for some of us, that's a week, that's a week of tasks. Right. And you know that getting the productivity of getting things done is, if you can check it off, man, that's. Yeah. That's great. Yeah, I mean, this is a thing that I've continually done. So like the past couple years, I haven't been very active on Instagram. Mm-hmm. In large part because I've been writing books and, um, I had gotten to a place where I had my consulting side of my business, then I had Instagram and podcast and newsletter, and then courses. So all of those things, and then piled books on top of that. Mm-hmm. So I am one person and I have an assistant and doing all of this, like having like this whole like multimedia situation happening mm-hmm. That is not feasible. Yeah. And I am just now kind of accepting that. Um, but I got so burned out because I was like, what is wrong with me that I can't do this? You're human Right. That's what's wrong. Right. I have to sleep, unfortunately. Yeah. The phrase, what's wrong with me ends up being what pops for me most in the mm-hmm. Uh, the list. Because alongside ones and eights, the, the three processing with action's a real thing. Like I am, I'm processing whether or not I'm good in the world based on what I'm doing. Mm-hmm. One of the things that my wife routinely says about other people, I love your thoughts on this, is that other people are mirrors, uh, telling me if I'm good in the world. And I can, I can check to see whether or not, you know, to, to shorthand it whether I have value based on the responses that I get from the person in front of me. So it may like the, I would be real curious. You got your checklist, but if you don't tell anybody about your checklist, that's also another element to this. Yeah, yeah. Um, though I think I am less likely to tell all the people about my checklist, but that's only probably because my work is so public facing. Oh, sure. So people can see if I'm doing a good job or not. So really the mirror ends up being you, you have channels, right. Already established. Yeah. And this would, this would be where the feedback is. And I've got a publisher who's like, Hey, what, where are you with By the, I am by the way, there's, there are two publishers in the world that I would actually wanna work with, one of which is, is Carrying Stuff's book. So no, no small, no small accomplishment there. Yeah. So well done there. Um, the. Processing with action came out in my statements about the ones, but it's another thing that I've heard threes talk about is that they feel as though they're sharks. Mm-hmm. It's, it's the movement. It's, I, I am constantly moving. That processing with action kind of has that element. I'm constantly moving because this is me being good in the world. Like, I recognize that you over there five need time alone and on a beach somewhere. This is not how rest works. This is not how I feel alive. This is not how I, I, I check in with myself to see if I'm doing well. I understand if I'm doing well based on the fact that I'm getting these pings mm-hmm. From, from the world based on me doing the things that are worthy of pings. Yeah. And, and so what can be challenging is like we have to reevaluate where that worth comes from because it's actually not good for us to only get worth from movement. Right. And in the past year in particular, I've had some pretty significant health challenges to where I physically can't mm-hmm. Work or move or whatever. And, um, that's hard. Mm-hmm. This would be something. Okay, so this is underlying all of our conversation. I would love to breach it as a unproductive, uh, footnote here, but in, in Enneagram world, they're here. There's, here's your motive, and sometimes you have to die to your motive, or sometimes you need to set your motive aside for something else. I wanna say that you put in, it's not the holy ideas, it's a different one. Uh, it's the other list, the virtues, or maybe it is holy ideas. I, I saw holy ideas. I think it is holy ideas, where the holy idea is in some ways a, um, a mature posture for the type that removes the negative power of their motive. I know for, for ones it's serenity, and so in some sense, being in a seren, embracing a serene space mm-hmm. The, the virtues. But, but yeah, like what I, how I perceive it is like what the, uh, passion is trying to do is, yeah, this is, these are ways that I can get to the virtue and like create like a false sense of the virtue. Right? Um, and so the inner work actually brings you back to the actual virtue, which is, you know, for, for one, serenity for three is veracity of, um, I tried to create that sense of worthiness and self through self deceit, but then what I actually have to do is come to it a different way and find veracity. Yeah. Finding, yeah, go ahead. Well, I think, I think that also touches on, like we, we talked about the energy, uh, going in order outward and, and with threes, sixes, and nines, it, it does both. Mm-hmm. And so that, that image, that that mirror place that, that like threes are looking for like, did I do well? Do I get a gold star? That that image that they're trying to maintain is not just outward facing. It's, it's not just tell me like looking for a mirror reflection to say that I did, did this. Well, it's also like that, that they've put that image inside of them. So, so even the accomplishing the 15 tasks on the list, even if you don't share that list, you're still meeting a certain set of expectations that you have internalized as this is what makes me a successful human. This is what makes me a, a good stay at home mom as the this list of things. Uh, and so like some of that accomplishment is not just needed needing external validation, but you've already projected that image inside. And, and so a lot of that work is about understanding that, that that view of yourself is also an image, right. And questioning. You know, where did this list even come from? Because that Right. We just absorb it. Right? Yeah. Um, so then the low threshold for type three is, is really similar. So it's about failure, so mm-hmm. Experiences that other people don't really consider to be failure. Threes do. So it could be the end of a relationship or something small going wrong, or a project not going as planned, um, or, you know, serving dinner in a dish being slightly less tasty than it was last time. Mm-hmm. Um, all those things can feel like failure, but threes, when you ask them, when's the last time you failed? A lot of the time they don't have anything to tell you. Right. Because they have all these little things throughout the day, but they don't really do, we don't do things very often that we will epically fail at. Um, and then if we do, we block it out. One place that I see that being, uh, overcome is, is when failures are in the distant past. And so, like, like some, some folks who are threes, there are speakers that are kind of like self-help kind of speakers will say, 10 years ago, let me tell you about where I was down and out and things were going very badly. It's so disgusting. Let me picture this. But, and then the story will emerge of triumph and, and overcoming the odds and I dunno, moving forward. Yeah. The thing I would say about that is threes love to turn their failures into an income opportunity or like monetize it or turn it into some, something in some way and find utility in it. And I think the challenge for threes is to feel the sorrow and the sadness. Ooh. And the depth of the failure and what that feels like. Um, and to then eventually be able to hold their own personal sense of self-worth as well to recognize I'm not a failure, but I did fail at this. You know, but I tried, but I failed. Um, and to hold both. It makes me think about, uh, in your, your, like very, the very intro of the book, you, you describe some of the ways that like you experienced burnout at a particular time and then like, I. Toward the end of the intro, you explained that like your original version of this intro was succinct and clean, and like, let's get into the book, and then you rewrote it and included all of this other stuff that was like, real from your life. And it just made me think of like, what, what, what kind of stuff is she leaving out? Like, what's not in there? Because like you, you do such a good job of explaining like, there, there were some, I don't wanna say failures, but some things went wrong for you. And like, you, you have to talk about that in moving forward. And uh, so yeah, that was, there's not a question or anything there, it's just something I noticed. Yeah, I mean, it is always funny, right? 'cause people will be like, oh, you're so successful, or you're so impressive and I'm like, me. Mm-hmm. You don't know. You don't even know. Right. And it's funny because like I do have that experience of feeling like I'm not ever doing enough similar to the, the ones, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and, and getting feedback that's different from that. And so, um, I think that's one of the times that maybe I could take a little bit more feedback and be like, oh, maybe I should be kinder to myself, you know? Sure. When I hear from threes isn't just that they want to appear successful as it were. I don't think that's actually the, the motive. The motive is that the three actually wants to be successful. And the appearances are valuable, but so much richer is the honest, authentic triumph. Yeah. As opposed to like, if I, you know, I hand you a, a something, I printed off my computer, it says, you know, Harvard University, you know, psychology degree, step Baron Hall. This, it may appear as though, but like, you understand the, the difference and everybody understands the difference. And what I do hear from three, like the, the, the pursuit of, of of, of truly praiseworthy, um, endeavors, accomplishments, and the rest is Yeah. Underlying that heart. And to get there, this is, I suppose this is a long way around. To get there, you have to feel the depth of the failures at times to understand your place in the world and how all these, such that those triumphs are actually rich and worthy. Yeah. I would agree with that. Okay. Type four. You, you've ta you, you've taken over the leadership. I have, and I do tend to do that. And I'm sorry, being an assertive side, as, as long as you feel like you don't feel like we are holding you back, or like you have enough time. Uh, no. If you, if, if you are time constrained, I will push the pace, but if, if not, then I'm entirely fine with No, I'm fine. I'm just, you're ready to go. Uh, I, I think, uh, I often have about a minute to go through each type, so, right. Sure. It's, we sit back with our beers and So what's the story about fives anyway? Okay. Uh, Leah's in fours. So fours, um, have a high threshold for emotion and emotional expression. Um, and I wanna say not all fours wear their emotions right out there and always express them. Some fours don't necessarily do that, but fours have an incredible depth for like how much emotion they can handle. Um, we were just talking about threes, who we, we don't tend to have that, that depth, um, for that, and it feels really intolerable, but, but fours can talk about their feelings or they can move toward their emotions. They can explore them and they don't try to paper over them or repress them. They just kind of investigate. And so they have that really high threshold for that. Um, and I think a good way to think about it is, like I mentioned in juxtaposition to like threes or sevens who we don't have that same capacity to explore. Um, and so with that, sometimes, you know, fours are a lot more willing to talk about it for a lot longer. Um, whereas other people are like, all right, that's enough of that and let's move on. Um mm-hmm. And, and forests tend to just have a lot more space. Yeah. Uh, in a, in a world of, um, boys are taught when they're young that they're not supposed to cry. Right. And, uh, one of my best friends, one of the friends of the podcast is, uh, a male four who cries at lots and lots and lots of things. We, we all joke about how we're, uh, movie criers. And, uh, he in particular is a movie crier. And, uh, he, he gets moved by a lot of things and he still has that sense of, it's not shame, but like, like you, you joke about the fact that you cry at movies all the time to cover up for the fact that you cry at movies all the time. Right. And, and it's, it struck me the other day. He said something about it and it, it struck me that like he just has a higher capacity for feeling his emotions. Yeah. And it, it's not necessarily that he's wearing them all the time or that he's talking about them all the time. He does talk about them a lot. But, but, and there's nothing wrong with that. Like he, he literally has a higher capacity for feeling them than a lot of people that I know. And, and I would put that in, into the same bucket as that, like emotional expression, like the threshold for just having emotions. Mm-hmm. Like it, they just, they just have them and they're okay with having them. I thing that hits me again, ends up being notice what, uh, the heart types want. They want attention and direction comes into play. We had talked about the twos seeking that attention from the world out there and having nearly all of their chips on, will these other people give me attention? And it's the exact opposite for fours. Yeah. That, that directional arrow is pointing inwards. And so giving attention to what's within them is the place that they're getting their attention first. And then the question kind of spills out similar to, to ones in terms of it spilling out to the world. Like, will other people grab hold of this? Will other people be captivated by the, by the thing that I am witnessing within my. Self. And if they do, we're gonna connect. And if they don't, then I'll just remain kind of misunderstood because nobody sees the, the things that I've seen about my inner life. And all three of the heart types are really looking for mirroring. So like that's, you know, that concept again. Um, and I think that fours typically start with that internally. So like when I talk about the motivation for force, I talk about how they wanna find and express their truest identity. Like they kind of just have this belief that I have to push inward even further to understand the truest parts of myself. Um, but then they want that ex, you know, mirrored back to them and it can be hard for them to find that. Yep. It's a toll footnote. One's, fours and sevens. All the loneliest numbers. And it's for this reason, it's that they're trying to pull people into their thing, but will commonly be frustrated when, when others don't catch the vision or can't come along or can't see the frustration. Try the depth better. There it is. Mm-hmm. The frustration. Try. Yeah. The, the low threshold, uh, for being misunderstood. I think this is really important and it, and it's related, so that's why I wanted to kind of jump into it. Fours are to have this incredible eye toward nuance. They can understand, like even if I am saying something and they're like, oh, I think what you actually mean is, is this. And they're like, oh yeah, that, that kind of describes it better. Um, so they can detect ways that their conversation partner is not understanding them. Um, and they tend to like go back and seek and clarify and say, oh, it's actually this. Um, and I've seen this come up a couple different ways. So one is actually my assistant, my virtual assistant. She's awesome. Um, she's a four and she told me one time it's a lot more helpful for people to say, um, what I'm hearing you say is blank. Instead of saying, I understand because she can tell if they don't understand. Right. Um, and so I thought that was really helpful because what I hear a lot from four is whether that's working in corporate, which to be honest, in corporate America, there are not a lot of fours, um, at least that will admit it on the questionnaire. Um mm-hmm. But, you know, when I'm working in corporate, or even if I post something on Instagram, forests have a nuance that they wanna add, right? Mm-hmm. They have a way that they want things to be explained and expressed. Um, that is very specific. And to be fair, different forests have different points of clarity, but I always invite forests to say, Hey, like, you know, how would you explain this? Um, because they typically do have a way to kind of describe it. Um, and so they give a lot of feedback. I'm like, well, that's not quite it, you know? Mm-hmm. And. I think that they have a, a real ability to, you know, because they've done so much inner exploration, they have an ability to be able to say like, oh, this is what that feels like or this is what that is. Now are they always the most accurate self-assess? Typically, no. They typically assess themselves way below where they actually are. Um, but they're pretty aware of a lot of those things. Yeah. Bring forth the emotion and the energy and the poetry in their responses, I imagine. Yeah. Mm-hmm. This, it, somebody one time commented on an Instagram post, it's so hard being this unique. I was like, oh, bless your little heart. Bless your heart is right. That's teach fours are, are sometimes the most likely to sort of reject the system of the Enneagram, because how dare you put 8 billion people into only nine little boxes, and, and there's, there's such a clear sense of wanting to be understood, but not ever wanting to be exactly like anyone else. Mm-hmm. And like they, they hold that tension. Like that's, that's why these two things are, are, can be so intertwined. They live in that tension of like being, having this high threshold for emotional experience and, and expression and also always feeling like they're misunderstood and, and the, um, like not wanting to be exactly like everyone else, not wanting to be exactly like all the other movie criers, you know, and, and all of that stuff. And, and just, just holding that tension can also be one of those things that sort of pulls them a little bit further into themselves and, and like, what's wrong with me that I can't fit in with all of these other people? And it's like, well, for a lot of us it's because we're not paying attention to ourselves. But yeah, a couple years ago I did this, um, workshop. It was like several hundred realtors and real estate agents and only three people test set us for. So with a crowd this, this size, I'm not meeting with them or even Sure. Having them take, you know, one of the more accurate assessments that tends to be a lot more expensive. So, um, they just took an assessment and, and brought their results. And so there were only three people who identified as four and they were all kind of in the back. They're all kind of like moody. They were cracking me up because they were like, just being like, what is this? I'm not like all these people. And, um. They ended up, you know, participating, but it was so funny just to see them kind of have that like rejection and I'm like, that's fine. Yeah. You know, that's all right. When we'll notice how many people were at the conference. Hundreds. I think like in a room of 300 people, the three fours were able to command your attention. This is actually what I'm seeing all over these lists where I, I talked quite a bit about, you know, the, the spatial component to the body types. Um, here it's all about being seen. And we saw it with the twos, we saw it with threes and the fours and the thresholds end up outlining very well. I thought that element of I'm, I want to be seen. And so how's this gonna take place in here for the fours? Yeah. Um, you, you're, you're seeing how that, that manifests. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Go ahead. I was just gonna mention, I, um, did a conference recently and I had panels. Um, so one or two people who have every type, they came up and answered questions about communication, how they like to communicate, et cetera. And, um, I did them by the intelligence centers and you could tell, like they all sat differently. Their answers were different, but like two threes and fours were more similar than, you know, threes were to fives or threes were to eights, for example. Yep. Yep. When we, when we do live presentations, we won't go over 50 or so folks, but we'll put people at tables and I. The, the group think that immediately occurs is, is again, when I'm sure it's this thing that you've seen, you ask the, the, the table of twos and somebody kind of looks around and says, well, we think, and it all, it's very collective. Yeah. And then you turn to the eight. So what did you answer on number two? And they say, we didn't follow, we didn't answer any of your stupid questions. We did our own same. Our list wasn't very good. Yeah, yeah. Et cetera. Ba All right. Fives. Alright. Uh, we high threshold for fives looks like what? Um, so fives have a high threshold for what qualifies as competence or expertise. And the way that I see this play out the most is fives cannot stand when somebody says, I'm an expert in X. And they're like, but where are your credentials? No, you're not you. Um, and I have talked to fives before who, for example, um, a five who's an entrepreneur who wanted to learn a little bit more about how to write contracts because they were gonna have to send 'em to their clients and they ended up just going back to law school. Sure. Yeah. Um, because for fives, a lot of the time, learning about the thing can be a good replacement for doing the thing. Mm-hmm. And so fake it till you make it is not something that fives are, are okay with. Um, and they really, really don't like it when other people do that too. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, the, uh, I, I bring up the example of like the dance steps a lot. Like, like if, if fives are gonna learn how to dance, they're, they're probably gonna do it in the safety of their own home where they can study dance. And that's actually going to the, so they're learning to ballroom dance, but now they're going to study the history of dance and, and they're gonna learn about modern dance. And they're also gonna learn about like, tribal dances from ancient peoples and all of these things. Because if you really want to know how to dance, you have to have the full knowledge and understanding of what all of dance is. Mm-hmm. Right. And that like, the, the, the deepening and widening of the knowledge helps make someone an expert. And that's, that's like the, the more you learn that you don't know, the farther away from expert fives may think they get, like, not, not necessarily consciously, but like you step into a field where you're like, okay, I can learn how to do this thing. And then you realize that there's actually a whole bunch of stuff beneath that. Now you wanna learn all of those other things so that you can be good at the thing you were trying in the first place. Like there, there is a, an a fullness of understanding that, that they're seeking and, and that that means they're looking for expertise. Yeah. Cut. Go ahead. I think they just have to be cognizant of when. Looking for expertise is turning into procrastination. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, um, I think for me as somebody who, you know, gives coaching and instructions to people, sometimes it actually can be challenging for me to come up with something for fives because I really see the downfall of not being that way. Um, as a three, I'm like, I respect these things, and I actually do have that tendency to be like, I'm not gonna do anything unless I get a, a credential in it. Um, but I, I kind of can see the downfall of like, not being somebody who really thoroughly thinks things through and, and those sorts of things. Um, so it's something I admire. Yeah. Credential means something different to you than it does to the five. Yeah. Yeah. It, it's like letting you know that I can do it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, on the, on the low threshold side, then, uh, what do you see for fives? So, the violation of privacy is a huge one, so. Fives tend to have a low threshold, um, for what feels like an infringement on their privacy. So I, I often talk about how fives don't really like a lot of personal questions, um, that can feel really invasive. And, um, I had a five respond on Instagram and she said, oh, I don't mind personal questions. Like, as long as it's not too personal, as long as you're not asking me what book I'm reading. And I was like, okay. So we have different definitions of what is personal uhhuh, um, because either that or she's reading some scandalous material, and in which case please tell me, I want to know. But, but really, like, I was like, oh, that's so interesting because that is like a general safe baseline question right there though, when people ask me sometimes I'm like, Ooh, should I talk about this book that I'm reading right now? I don't know this person. It might offend them. Um, but yeah, that, that personal kind of concept can be really different for a five. Mm-hmm. And, and there within this idea of like, again, we're, our things are intertwined here. The having such a high threshold for expertise, there is a sense of like all, all of the stuff that goes into expertise is not necessarily. Important if you can show that you have the expertise and there's, there's a level of, like, like the story about the, uh, was it Da Vinci who drew a, a perfect circle and, or, or the bird, the, there's a, like a, a guy pays for a, a drawing of a bird and, and the artist says, okay, come back in a year and I'll have a drawing of a bird. And, and the guy shows up and the, there's no drawing anywhere. And the artist is like, oh yeah, I was supposed to do that. So he sketches out a bird real quick and hands it over and it's like, that'll be a thousand dollars. And the, like, the thing that you don't see there is the hundreds and hundreds of drawings of birds that the artist did in that time to be able to do it really quickly. Mm-hmm. And so much of what fives are experiencing in their inner life is a, like, it is the sketches. It's, it's the stuff that they don't want people to, to see because they, they want to be seen as competent expertise, like all of that stuff. And so when they do share something, it's, it's not. Gossip. It's not stuff that they want spread around. They told you because they have a relationship with you and they told you that one thing. Mm-hmm. And, and that like, when, when we start violating that for fives, like we're not trustworthy with their possessions anymore. Yeah. 'cause they didn't, they didn't really give us permission to share their life or Yeah. All the things. Yeah. I have a, a five friend who told me that he was starting a new job and mm-hmm. So the next time, you know, we have this group of Enneagram friends, next time we got together, I was like, oh, how's the job? You know? And people are like, you got a new job? And I was like, oh my God. Like that is basic information for me. For him. He told me that, I mean, he, he was fine, but, um, it, I was like, Hey, I'm sorry I didn't realize, you know, I wasn't trying to like out you for getting a new job or something. Right, right. So it's a, it's a different thing and we have to kind of be cognizant of that. And they do compartmentalize those things so that they don't end up leaking out information. Right. Yeah. And also notice that like with fives who have such a, like we talk about the bucket, the energy that, and like giving anything to other people is energy. And if they shared like that person shared with you that they got a new job and now they have to expend energy on somebody else that they weren't planning and that, like, that messes up their whole day because now like the end, the way that they planned out their energy is being used differently Yeah. Than they're prepared for. And yeah. The thing that hits me here is to go back to, uh, directions. What we're gonna start to see with five sixes and sevens is, is the anticipation that's there and the fear that they have and where the direction of their fears aimed in. Again, in stuff's fantastic book our diagrams outlining this, in which the fear of fives is about the things that are out there. Mm-hmm. And so what's gonna protect you? Well, it's clearly gonna be the assets that have secured, it's gonna be the things that I hold closely. Nothing can really be trusted, can it? That's out. There. And if the information that I had prized so heavily gets out there, that is my asset is gone. Mm-hmm. Knowledge is whew. So if I hold these things close to my vest, they always have a safeguarding power. Um, for, for anything, for, for the things that, that may emerge that, that, uh, that I may fear. And I suppose that's why I see there most in terms of privacy pri it, it's almost, it's, it becomes habitual. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Disclosing your book isn't the thing. It's that the habit has been ingrained in a person so severely that, that, that, that all things should probably be kept under lock and key, don't you think? Yeah. And I think that's where, like for fives, everything goes back to Aris and stinginess. Like I, it is true of other types, but especially for fives. Those two things are like, so the, the passion and the fixation, everything falls under those buckets. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Do you find, so when I bring up aice with fives, they don't like it, uh, and sometimes don't connect with it. Do have you found that or is that just my presentation? I think I have learned a lot from a few particular fives who've explained their experiences of it, of it really well. And if I can explain it in that way. They're like, oh, yes. Mm-hmm. You know, but the, i, the concept of greed, um, particularly like financial greed, while fives certainly hoard financial resources if they have that bent, um, a lot of the time fives really don't like that concept of avarice, like that framing of it, right? Because they're like, well, money is a social construct. Like it is utterly meaningless. Um, and so you kind of have to understand like a little bit or, or try to get them to understand it from a different viewpoint. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You talk about fives and nihilism as well on that front. What was, what was your thought, tj? I mean, just the, the, the idea that you would talk about greed and a five would say, but money's just a social contract construct. It is hilarious that like a five would go so far into what money is. And like, we're trying to talk about greed, which is way back here. Like that's, that's hilarious and accurate. Mm-hmm. And, and I also think that like we have a cultural understanding of what greed is. So when you just use the word greed, people hear that. They don't hear what we are talking about when we talk about fives and greed, which is hoarding. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. The habitual side of, it's not just about the monetary, but it can be about one's emotional life. Mm-hmm. One's self-disclosure, one's, anything, that book list. Mm-hmm. Anything that people are kind of keeping close to themselves as I assume it's not just as part of their identity, but the, but especially those things that they think may ensure their security moving into the future. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I, um, I had it described to me this way that, so say you've got a whole circle and that represents all of the fives, thoughts, feelings, energy, everything, all the information they're learning, so it's growing. Right. Um, but if they share something with somebody else, it's not sharing in the sense of now we both have it, it's cutting a wedge out of this pie mm-hmm. And handing that away, so now I no longer have it. Yeah. And I think when we think of, you know, stinginess, so like holding onto it and avarice like hoarding, um, through that lens, then we can understand, oh, like, that's why the, the privacy thing is so important because they're giving a part of themselves away every time they allow somebody to see something or to to know something. Um, y'all know this, but maybe the fives listening, uh, we'll see that differently. No, I think it's, it can be incredibly helpful for those of us who love fives to understand. Another maybe angle on this is that fives have. Understand that they themselves have limited resources, or at least that's a belief that they have. And part of those resources are the energy they're putting out out there. And that's, I suppose what I, I heard in your response is, is that if we're gonna love fives, we just have to know they only have so much. Mm-hmm. And we're, we're having to meet 'em in that space. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Bang sixes. So sixes have a high threshold for, um, what feels like certainty. Like certainty is elusive. The closer they get, the further away it feels. And so they, they always think, okay, if I am really curious and I look for more information, um, then I will feel more certain. But what actually happens is they keep scratching the surface of all these different concepts and topics, um, and they end up feeling less certain, and that is really destabilizing for them. Um, so they need more and more and more certainty to feel certain, but that threshold is so high for them that, that it's really impossible to get there. Yeah. There's, uh, I think there's a, a good way like you. You use the word readiness and I, I also think preparedness. Like they, like my, my partner is a six and like they, there is a sense of like needing to be prepared for the things that are coming up. Uh, or let me rephrase that, needing to feel prepared for what might come up. And that feeds a lot of the worst case scenario planning. That, that feeds a lot of the like, uh, anxiety about money. Uh, our, our daughter is gonna start school next year and what does that look like? And, and all of this stuff like, like needing to feel like she is capable of moving into those new things. And there, there's so much of our lives that there's just literally no way to be prepared. And, and the, the less prepared she feels, the harder it is to move, which like becomes less prepared and like, becomes that cycle. And, and it, it is like about this sense of like having that high threshold of what it means to be prepared. What it means to be, to be ready, what it means to be certain, and that there's so little that we can be certain of. Right. And, and. Sixes get to hold all of that tension because, you know, we, we could also all be in a simulation and none of this is real anyway. And so those sorts of thoughts for sixes is gonna have 'em spinning out. If you start putting that into their heads, you don't have to worry about putting that in their heads that is already there. That came preinstalled. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, but like, I think what can be so hard for sixes is being married to somebody who does not think about these things. Right. Or being in partnership with somebody who doesn't think about these things because they're like, oh my God, I'm the only one who is aware of this. Right. Yeah. And that can be really hard. Um, and it, it's, it's funny 'cause I also, my partner's also a six, so, um, yeah. Like I talk in the beginning of the book about how I started this flower business and, uh, did wedding florals. And when I started it, my husband was like, what makes you think you can do that? I was like, 'cause I want to, because he's like, because I'm amazing and I'm going to do it anyway. Why would you ask a question like that? Like, it never occurred to me to like question if I could or not, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and especially that was, you know, my early twenties, so I approached things a lot differently now. I think I'd have some pause before I did something like that, but, um, at the time, and I think that's a thing that sixes are constantly asking, like mm-hmm. What makes you think you can do that? Or why would I think this is gonna work out? I need to make sure it's gonna work out if I'm gonna try. Yeah. Yeah. Direction's. What hits me here again, and as you say it, uh, I, I wanna push back, are sixes the only ones whoever radar for this? 'cause I bet you the fives and the sevens do as well and their di the direction of their energy is just going differently. This is the doom loop for the six is the six Doesn't trust the stuff out there, but also doesn't trust the stuff within to deal with the stuff out there. And that creates that, that really difficult spot that, that like all types have places that are very difficult to live. And that's, I suppose what I hear is the fact that the direction is going, I doubt and that doubt is going both directions inwardly and outwardly. This is problematic and, and creates that kind of energy. It's also the case that sixes don't have past tools to kind of grab a hold of and say, you realize that, that this has worked just fine the last 28 times this has happened. What materializes, and I'm sure you, you. This is what's coming out in terms of the high threshold certainty can be really great for, for us on some fronts as well, because there's such a push for, um, for assurance here. Mm-hmm. You may not get toll assurance, but you, you probably have, you know, minimized your odds of, of things going badly, you know? Yeah. As a three for sure. Yeah. Um, because are you overly, are you risk, overly risk taking, do you think? Or why would you say that? Um, I, I take risks. I think. I, I don't, but, but it's more so because I don't allow a lot of attention to the downsides. Um, like I don't typically think, do I have capacity for this? That's a question six is always ask, do I have capacity for this? Um, like, I don't, I don't think that, right. Um, and I don't ask that like naturally, right. It's a, it's a skill that I have to develop. Right. So I think that's one of the ways that we can both, you know, threes and sixes can help round each other out because threes can see possibility that it will work out. Whereas sixes, you know, I was actually describing. Type six to a seven recently. 'cause a seven is like, I just see the world as, uh, the glass is half full. And I said, no, no, no. Six is, see the glass is half full. They just are also aware the glass could shatter at any moment. That's the difference. Yeah. Like, and whatever's in there, it could be poison. It could be poison. Who cares if it's half full? What if it's half full of, of something that's gonna kill us all? It's okay, you're in a simulation, it doesn't matter. See? Yeah. And that's that, you know, mental modeling, that's that the head types are always doing, you know, their pattern, recognizing their processing. Um, so yeah. But I think with that, because it's so hard to trust, the low threshold then is betrayal. Like sixes have a low threshold for what counts as suspicious. And one of the things that can happen for me as a three is if I am doing my little shape shifty thing, sixes, like I do not trust that once they're in, they're loyal. Right? If, if they can find the core of the person, um, and they're very committed, once that trust is built, but the trust building is slow. Um, so an example of this, uh, when my husband and I met, we were like kind of casually dating, I guess, you know, for a few months. And then he, you know, I, I didn't even know he liked me. I wasn't really sure, uh, but. We sat down, he's like, um, I, I would like to ask you to be my girlfriend, but um, I wanna give you a month to think about it. And I was like, buddy, I don't need to think about it. I already know. A month. A month. In case you need to get your head around that just in case. Yeah. Just in case I need a process. I'll make sure you had space. Yep. Yeah. If you need to break off any other potential relationships that you're in the, in the process of maybe loving you the way that he wants to be loved. And maybe if you were gonna ask him out, maybe he would want a month to think about that. He, I am confident he would. Exactly. Yeah. He's gotta prepare. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. So betrayal comes up as a low threshold for two of the numbers for you. Mm-hmm. Uh, it's both sixes and eights. Yeah. And worth, worth talking about that, I think, in terms of the difference here. Um, mm-hmm. Do you see a difference between how the two types experience betrayal? I think for sixes there's a lot more fear behind it. Um, and a lot more like, oh no, that's unsteady, that's shaky, that's insecure. That, that doesn't feel good. Um, I think for eights it's much more self-protective, which you could argue is also from fear. Um, but I don't think it's really experienced it as fear. Um, in that same way. They, they tend to just be like, Nope. You know. Well, and, and I, I think this touches on like, like sixes and eights both have a sense of the future. Right. But eights are always moving toward it. Like they, they, the, the energy that eights bring to the world means that they are moving toward the future they envision, and when that betrayal comes in the future that they are protecting themselves against is being betrayed again. Mm-hmm. And the so, so that, that focus is a lot easier. Just the same as eights don't understand that the rest of us don't have that energy. Like, eights are like, oh yeah, why would I let that person back in? Who betrayed? Like, that's just, that's stupid. Like, it's, it's a bad way to live to set yourself up for vulnerabilities like that. So betrayal means you're cut off. Yeah. And sixes experience betrayal and now they are on unsteady ground. Right. And they might not cut the person off. Right. Right. And, and like that it unm mores them a little bit to where, to where they, they don't know what to trust anymore and enter into that cycle again. Yeah. So the future that they're looking out for is, is not necessarily to not be hit again, it's, it's because they need certainty. They, and when they experience betrayal, it un unset their, their foundation. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that for sixes it also makes 'em question themselves like mm-hmm. How could I have trusted that person? Yeah. Um, yeah. What's wrong with my judgment that I allowed this to happen in the first place, but I will say about sixes that I think is often missed is they do experience fear, but almost everything they do is in service of mitigating fear. Mm-hmm. They don't want to feel fear. Yeah. Right. And I think a lot of the time sixes who are men in particular are mistyped because they cover their fear with something else. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Whether that's, you know, adhering to a certain moral authority or, you know, anger or, or something like that. They, they have this other thing that takes the place of fear because fear is really vulnerable. Mm-hmm. I think especially for sixes, uh, this is, I'm, I'm shooting from the hip here, have a preference for living in their stress number in, in their security number more than other types of may. A lot of males specifically will project an image who are sixes in our culture that, that that strength and can over the top, can go over the top. Mm-hmm. But also a lot of, a lot of sixes. Seemed to me to, to really have that preference for nine space in trying to manufacture that if possible. Yeah. Because of that, because the, the anxiety can be uncomfortable, I assume. Yeah. What is the, so we had mentioned this with both biotypes and heart types, but like the, um, the virtue or that, that place of, of relief for your underlying motive, was it, what is that verse six? Um, um, so the virtuous courage. Yeah. Mm-hmm. There's a, there's a place where I, I would love to talk about this for two seconds. The, what does it look like for both of you, for your spouses to trust their thinking and to say, I'm going to, that's where it is. It's the courage is I'm going to mm-hmm. Trust my thinking. Yeah. It's, it's a deci courage is, is a decision being made there, right? Yeah. Anyway, um, I think for, for my husband, so he's really knowledgeable in his specific career field. Um, and when he's having conversations about those things or those topics, he has this degree of certainty that well. He doesn't always even convey in those meetings, but when he talks to me about, you know, his thinking or his processing or, or why something will work or why it won't work, he's really confident in that. Um, and I think because it's his career, he has a track record. Remember earlier we were talking about sixes don't have that backlog of all the times that they've seen things go well, but because it's so tangible for him to be able to see that he can look at data, he can look at hard facts. Mm-hmm. Then he's like, oh yeah, you know, I've got the confidence. I know what I'm talking about. I know what I'm doing. Remember when I said this last time and you didn't listen and it all went terribly? Like, let's pay attention to that. So I feel like when he can pull in those pieces of like, yes, I remember times when this went well, um, then he can really convey a lot of that confidence and the courage to say, I'm gonna venture out here. I'm gonna reach out, you know, cross-functionally and, and go work on this relationship and, and work on that project. Um, and that's a big thing for him. So I think that's one of the ways I see it. You're gonna have to remind me what the question was, just is anything to be said about your, uh, spouse choosing, choosing to, to trust their thinking? Yeah, I think that, uh, seeing, I know with, with my partner, uh, like there's so much, I, this is a hard time because teaching is really hard right now, and we have a 4-year-old and like there, there's, there's just, there's a lot going on in the world. But, uh, I, I think there is, um, there is something to be said for making a decision and just doing it anyway that, that often sort of propels her in a direction. Uh, and, and there it's so easy to, to, to sort of get stuck in like, well, these, here's the list of things that I want, that I think I should be doing. And much like a, uh, much like threes, like 13 of those things are probably undoable if you do the other two. And there's, there's a sort of a, a place where once a decision is made and you start to move forward, then a lot of the other mental stuff sort of falls away with those things. So like, thinking about my partner and courage, it's not, uh, necessarily about like doing things that are really brave. Oftentimes courage for her is just picking something that she's not sure of and just moving. Mm-hmm. Just like picking something and doing it. Is that, is that the reckless expression of that or does that strike you as courageous? It usually strikes me as courageous. There there are, there is very little exp yeah. Bang. Good answer. Alright, lastly, sevens. So high threshold, uh, is possibility. So sevens tend to have a high threshold for what feels possible, um, in the sense that they have these big outlandish ideas and they chase after them and they don't think about, like, this might not work. And so they're, all of their energy is in how do I make this work? How do I make this happen? That's where they concentrate. And so that actually is one of the reasons things work out for sevens is because they believe it's possible and they don't spend time thinking that it's not possible. Um mm-hmm. So I think that, you know, that can be awesome. I've also seen it where it can be really bad. Um, in particular I saw a seven leader who would be like, who didn't wanna accept that certain things weren't possible so that she would constantly rescope projects. So then all of her people ended up having the same number of projects, but just on a smaller scale and that didn't actually alleviate any of the workload. Um, and so I think sometimes that can, that could be a challenge, but they just think almost anything is possible. Mm-hmm. I think it, it, part of the challenge also comes in not. Not finishing things that aren't the way that you envisioned them anymore. Like, they like the fours, ones and sevens, all these idealists and like fours do this a lot in relationships. Like sevens have a hard time completing projects when the project isn't fun anymore. Right. And that there's so much other stuff like that, that is a very simple way to say a, a very broad concept. Like once they are not experiencing the, the joy, the excitement, the like, whatever they thought was possible in this activity, then they're ready to move on. And sometimes that means they don't stick with things that they should have stuck with. The thing that hits me again is, uh, direction comes up for me and connecting with other people the direction is, is, is interesting with sevens. 'cause what sevens are fleeing isn't a, uh, craziness that's out there. They're, they're jumping into the craziness that's out there. Mm-hmm. They are avoiding some dark stuff that's probably un in, in their, in their heart and their soul and their emotional life. Mm-hmm. That just, we don't need to deal with that just, just yet. Don't you just think we could have a more enjoyable time tonight doing something else? And so that direction, the, the fear is. In something inside them, they're moving outward. Mm-hmm. And inviting others to come along. There's possibilities here. And I, I suppose in connecting with someones, I routinely see something like that is the, the invitation to get excited about the thing that they're excited about at this moment in time. And to ca capture your imagination with the thing is what I heard in your, in your answer. Yeah. There, Steph. And, and that's really one of the low thresholds. So sevens have a low threshold for what feels worth celebrating. And even small things can be like, oh, let's celebrate that. You know? Yeah. Um, I had a seven coaching client for a long time who would be like, oh, we have to celebrate. We have to celebrate. We have to celebrate all the time. Um, and they make a habit of celebrating their friends too. Um, mm-hmm. Sevens don't always necessarily celebrate themselves. I'm thinking now, um, I know some seven too really don't necessarily do that, especially the social sevens. I, but they, they tend to not need a lot to be pushed to be like, let's be happy, let's be cheerful. And, um, all that stuff. And again, I think it's that fleeing that inner anxiety that can really be under the surface. I think a lot of the time when sevens start to do a little bit more inner work, they start to find a lot of fear that they didn't realize was there. Um, and that can be really challenging. Sorry, I think that real quick, the low. Threshold for celebration is that they don't need much. Yeah. In order to pivot into celebration Uhhuh, it's a what? Okay, perfect. Sorry, go ahead. Teach. I also think that, that there's something that's to be said about the reframing that can happen there, because I, I, uh, have to say this delicately. I know someone who, instead of ignoring their faults, choose to celebrate them to the degree that it, if they didn't, if, if they would ignore them, then nobody would pay attention to it. But their insistence on celebrating it, which is their way of reframing it, means that we're often talking about it and like now we're sort of, the rest of us are being held hostage to this person's need to reframe the thing that they don't like into something that they can celebrate. Mm-hmm. And like even that, like the threshold there is really low. Yeah. And, and they have more sensitivity than they let on, right? Like mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I, I used to use a few TV examples for some of these, and I've kind of stopped doing that, um, for some of the seven things, because I think sevens are really sensitive to always being labeled as the ditzy one on whatever TV show, because sevens are cerebral, right? They're, they're mental modelers, they're, they're head types. They, they're strategic thinkers. Um, but they don't always let people see that. And so they end up getting really sensitive about, um, some of these other things that they don't always show. Um mm-hmm. And I think, you know, their own flaws can, can be one of those things. But I heard there was both a mixture of avoidance and that's what the stress move can look like for the seven. They're actually moving into self-critical space. Mm-hmm. But they're, they're also trying to reframe, and that's, that mixture is all coming together. I'm gonna tell a great story that's avoiding the, the issue. I'm trying to do some repair in the moment. Mm-hmm. And hey, look, a bird, let's be young. But it's funny, like sixes and sevens I think are interesting 'cause they can also, like eights, they can get into a big like mental debate and like, are you about stuff? And they're not feeling emotional, but it feels tense to other people in the room. Um, yeah, true. But sixes and sevens can do that too. This guy. Yep. What is that? Uh, I'd love to put my thumb on that for a second. Is that. The feeling repression? Is that something else? Um, I think it's, it's meeting each other in that mental space where Okay, it's, it's concepts and they're much more comfortable in dealing in abstracts, like abstract concepts. Yeah. Um, and part of the reframing is that they are in consciously or not, they are intentionally behaving in a way that, that leads them to believe that they're not connected to the outcome. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. And, um, what sixes and sevens have in common is that they both see all the possibilities, but they only see one side of the spectrum. Right. So they can have arguments and debates about possibilities. Like, one time I heard a debate about, um, if there were more like cellists or trombone players in the United States, not looking at data, not going and, and Googling and just having like a conceptual debate about this. And I was like, oh, please, who has time for this conversation? That's great. Yeah. It's trombones. It's gotta be, they're, they're cheaper and easier to carry. I, that's what went through my mind. It's an Armour cap. That's a hilarious debate. Hey, we went around the circle. Did it? We did it. I'm gonna celebrate that. Yeah. Rightly so. See, we actually did some real work though. You know, what is actual work though? Okay. So behind peeking, behind the curtain of Enneagram world, dear listener, you got this far. You wanna hear what's actually behind the curtain of Enneagram world. There are two types of Enneagram thinkers. There are those who have a bunch of friends and they write a book about each of the types, but really they're just talking about Joe the four and Ed the five. And then there's people that actually put in the work and do an extraordinary job of putting together about a thousand details on each type that are accurate, informed, elevate the conversation. And Steph's book is that, and her book will actually stand the test of, of time here for the next, you know, decade or two or, or hopefully beyond, where a lot, a lot of the stuff that's just flooded the market is nobody will remember in the next couple, couple years if, if at all. And so truly something to have on the shelf. Um, and it's, it's really been, I, I was so glad that we could start the year, uh, with, with, with, with your study. Very worthy. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. This has been fun. And I'll just, you know, keep y'all around so you can keep complimenting me. I really like that. Perfect. Uh, I also, uh, we spoke I think very little, probably too little about how much. Next steps there are in this book. Oh, I like, they, we, we covered 5% of this book, if you guys thought that we did in-depth study. No, we, we hit one topic of Yep. Yep. Go ahead. Mm-hmm. But you should say it and, and yeah, like, I, I thought it was hilarious that the three wrote the book that has, what do you do next? And like, how, how do you check mark these things? Uh, but also like the, practically speaking, so much of the material that is available to us in the Enneagram world is theory. So much of it is learning the ideas and the concepts, and a lot of the work that needs to be done is something that you ha kind of have to work out on your own. And this is one of those places where like, I, I am really excited to be able to point people to this book. Like my three friends. Like I, I love the theory and I'm all about that, so I'm good in the theory, but I know so many people who are like, I don't care about the theory. I want to know what to do with it. And so I think that that is a really, um, like this is a tremendous contribution to the field and I'm really excited to be able to hand it to Thanks. Yeah. My, um, publisher really, really pushed for. The practical application, even though as you know, almost would say threes need to stop being so practical. Uh, but sometimes the world needs types to be their best selves and give the gift mm-hmm. That they're really, really skilled at giving. Yeah. Friends, it mean the world to us. If you would share this episode with somebody that you love, preferably somebody who is a little bit more informed, who is looking for a great book to get into this new year, um, this is a great thing to shoot their way. Um, because Steph's book is fantastic, uh, place to, uh, for a lot of us we're getting our rhythms of the new year and, uh, need some, need some good material to jump into to do some work on ourselves. So, um, friend says January 28th, uh, January 28th. Yep. Okay. By May let's, if, if you're hearing this before January 28th, 25, then it's not out there. You can pre-order, which is a big deal actually. Yeah. So help sister out. Speaking of helping people out, we have fantastic stuff on the Patreon. If you go to around the circle.org, you can check out our movie type of podcast. So that's what I got. You got anything else, tj? I got nothing. She is Steph Baron Hall. She has been a treasure and a delight to have and we're very much looking forward to connecting with you again in the future. And he's TJ Wilson. He's officially awesome. I'm Jeff Cook, who you aren't just isn't interesting. Thanks again for listening to this super extended episode of Enneagram in Real Life, Enneagram in Real Life. The podcast is a production of nine types Co LLC editing support from Heidi ese crits at Crits collaborations, and our intro music is from Dr. Dream Chip. Thanks again to the guys at Around the Circle Podcast for allowing me to share this unabridged episode, and I hope to find you here again very soon.