Reagan Pugh: 1:47

So in the workplace for four is the thing that I like to guide people toward is you need to get really great at doing unsexy work. Because here's the deal, force always worry, Is this unique enough? Is there going to be enough meaning in this work? And what they don't realize is inherently a four is already so nuanced and so introspective That if you were to just start making regular contributions that you actually put into the world You cannot help but add your unique flavor to that. You cannot help but make it meaningful and intentional so Just do things, just submit ideas, just do unsexy work. And then you're going to be able to look back and you're going to be able to see where there was meaning infused in all of that.

2:43

Hello and welcome to any gram in real life. The podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host, Stephanie Barron hall. And on today's episode, I am talking with author writer, speaker facilitator, Reagan, pew. So Reagan is a type four on the Enneagram and he just wrote a book called too emotional. And this is all about how forests can delve into their emotions without getting stuck in them and learning to have a different and more balanced relationship with their emotions. And I think what I hear from people most of the time is that we need to be more in touch with our emotions. And so Reagan and I kind of talked about that paradox as well, where we see, you know, with fours, one of the challenges can be getting so stuck and, and they're feeling stuck in their emotions. So Reagan has written this book about how to navigate. Life as a four and it's called to emotional, overcome the thunderstorm feelings, shame and self doubt. So I think this is a great lesson for fours, of course, but also if you love force, um, and many of us do, and many of us have fours, our wives, and we could really benefit from understanding this from their perspective. So. Check out his book, um, on his website, which is Reagan pew.com. So R E a G a N P U G h.com or. On Instagram at Reagan pew. And all of that is linked in the show notes. So I really hope you enjoy this episode. I'm going to share a little bit about his bio and then we'll jump in. Reagan pew. Isn't a writer, speaker, and facilitator. His focus is helping regular folks understand themselves so they can improve relationships, find meaning in work and live more intentional lives. Reagan speaks to thousands of people each year at organizations across sectors from corporate clients like Facebook, Pepsi, and Whirlpool to nonprofits, like meals on wheels and the American red cross to associations and professional organizations. Prior to writing and speaking full time, Reagan guided programs on storytelling, culture and leadership at companies like Nike, Western digital, and Kimberly Clark with a global management consulting firm. Reagan started his career as a high school teacher. And he since designed and taught leadership courses on multiple university campuses and enjoy speaking to college audiences. Around the country having visited over 50 universities to date. He has a TEDx speaker, longtime blogger and frequent podcasts guest. You can read more of Reagan's writing by subscribing to his semi-regular blog on his website. There, you will also find details about booking Reagan to speak at your event or work with your team. And you can also purchase his book. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Regan peel.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 5:37

Well, Regan Pugh, welcome to the podcast.

Reagan Pugh: 5:39

So glad to be here, Steph. Thank you for having me.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 5:43

Yeah. I'm glad to chat with you. We were just chatting about this earlier, but we actually went to the same church growing up.

Reagan Pugh: 5:50

Yeah, the, the IBC Irving Bible Church crew has broad, uh, broad reaches and fun to look back on that.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 5:59

Yeah. It's so funny. Um, so I'm glad that we were actually able to connect through Ellie as well. And our listeners probably have heard her on the podcast, Ellie type seven, and she came and talked about the Enneagram, but today we're talking about your story and we will get started, um, with your introduction, but I can't wait to also talk about your book later.

Reagan Pugh: 6:20

Thank you.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 6:21

Yeah. So first start out with an intro. Who are you? Give us a little bit of your background. Yeah.

Reagan Pugh: 6:30

is started writing in a journal in seventh grade, capturing thoughts, capturing journals. And now to this day, when we move, I've got journals chronicling my whole life from seventh grade on. I've got them in a big duffel bag. And the joke that Ellie offers is always, uh, so who's going to help us move Reagan's baggage to the next house? Um, so there was always this deep, um, deep desire to know myself, uh, a, a, a, a deep pull toward introspection and wanting to make sure that I was living life correctly and understanding what's going on and what my place was in the world. Um, always felt like a little bit of an outsider looking in. And even though I did stuff like student government, got class president in school, um, I still, uh, is a four. Wondered if, if everybody was really genuine in their approval or not. Um, but felt a deep pull as a preacher's kid toward, you know, Helping people understand the meaning of life, um, and pushing people toward purpose. So that rolled into my first job as a 10th grade teacher and loved teaching 10th grade English. And you know, that teaching English was great. I was an English major in college. Uh, but there was also those opportunities sandwiched in to help these young people who are trying to figure out who they are answer some big life questions. So then education kind of continued to be a theme. I, I worked with a nonprofit after that, that developed a leadership curriculum for college students. And so I got to teach a couple of college courses in business leadership and loved that. Rolled into management consulting for five or six years, which also allowed me to do training in personal professional development for the clients that we had. So education guiding a group of people toward understanding things, uh, is a way for me to also continue this inner Spelunking to understand who, who I am. And then, you know, five or six years ago, I thought, well, what does it look like for me to go out as a speaker trainer facilitator on my own? And so for that, that's been the story for the past five or six years, I'll do workshops and keynotes on personal development, mindset, venture into time management, all that kind of stuff. And the hope is that the new book called Too Emotional is going to help me focus my messaging a little bit because I think right now some of my messaging is a little scattered and I really want to be able to focus on the interior journey that people are navigating.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 9:11

Yeah. That's such a great, uh, succinct answer. I think I could tell that you practice that sharing about your history and your journey. Um, Enneagram fits in with all of that, because you have all these different spots where you were really invested in that personal development side. And so. The Enneagram seems to be a natural fit.

Reagan Pugh: 9:32

The Enneagram was a natural fit. Um, you know, I'm sure you're probably similar. I knew all the Myers Briggs and StrengthsFinder stuff and on my breaks at work would go to Barnes Noble and buy a book and read it in the parking lot. So I was happy in the beginning just to add another tool of personal understanding to the tool belt. And like most people for a time, just viewed it as another way to excuse my behavior. Um, and I think the gift of the Enneagram and particularly what Ellie, my wife, has helped me recognize is that, Yeah, it's not a tool to tell you who you are. It's a tool to tell you. Uh, it's a, it's a tool to help you find freedom from the story that your ego is telling you that you are. So I'll never forget when that shift happened and I was able to see that, Oh, I'm, I'm not supposed to be excusing my tendency toward being really emotional. I'm supposed to find freedom from that.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 10:42

Yeah. So I think you've hinted now that your type, so tell us about your type, like finding your type and your subtype.

Reagan Pugh: 10:52

I don't know if we did the, me. Um, personality test thing or not, uh, I, you know, you hear that what you're supposed to do is maybe not take a test, but read all of the different types. And then whichever one you would set the most is probably yours. I don't know, but I remember reading for and going, Oh geez, that feels really close to home. And then there was also some sort of a twisted pride in the fact that it was named the tragic romantic. Take your night. Look back in my life and thought of all the times that I'd wandered lonely and parks of with a journal and a book of poetry Wondered why my life wasn't what I thought it should be. I thought yeah, that sounds right. Um that

Stephanie Barron Hall: 11:36

The tragic romantic. I don't know if I've heard that moniker.

Reagan Pugh: 11:42

maybe I made it up but but is a way to excuse it but that's it I thought yeah, I'm just uh It's fixed my whole life feels like a black and white French movie, you know You Uh,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 12:03

So then you found your, your type.

Reagan Pugh: 12:06

find the type. Um, and again, in some ways that that allowed me, and I think this is some, in some ways the gift of the Enneagram, because that allowed me to say, well, I'm not the only one. Uh, there's other people like me. Um, but I don't know that it really became a tool for growth. Until the subtypes were introduced, and I think that's such a pivotal move for people.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 12:32

Absolutely. So tell us about your subtype.

Reagan Pugh: 12:35

Um, you know, it's interesting, when you think about the, when you look at the instincts, self pres, social, sexual, and then you look at the way that they map to the subtypes, it's not always a direct match. And, and so initially when I looked at the instincts, I thought, well, I've got to be self press because I'm like very concerned with, um, finances and the order of our home and like schedule. Like if you were to see my calendar stuff, like I'll like, I like put on my calendar retroactively, like went to grocery store, you know, like it's cause I like to look back and understand how my time was utilized.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 13:17

Mm hmm.

Reagan Pugh: 13:18

And so with that desire toward kind of safety and control, I thought self press has to be what it is. But thankfully, when we dug deeper and again, with the help from Ellie, my wife, uh, we, we started, we definitely knew that I was social repressed, which I know you are as well. Um, and this idea that I might be a sexual force started to bubble to the surface. And then this language came out that a sexual force, was the angriest number on the Enneagram.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 13:50

hmm.

Reagan Pugh: 13:52

I thought about all of the times in my life that I felt like I was unseen, or I felt like I was not worth people's time, or I felt like I was disrespected or overlooked, and how angry that made me, and how I carried around with me this sort of resentment against people who just seemed to overlook me in this envy, which is the passing of the war, for the folks who seemed to Getting life right. And then that maybe allowed me to say, could be a sexual four. Um, yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 14:35

So then how did that transform your growth journey? Because obviously you're like, okay, I already know I'm looking at this emotional part. And then now I'm looking at the anger part. And I'm sure you've heard the adage, which I actually think is really rude, but I've heard for us say that it feels true to them that sexual floors make others suffer,

Reagan Pugh: 14:57

Hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 14:58

especially when they feel misunderstood.

Reagan Pugh: 15:01

Uh, yeah, that's true. That's that's true. Um, yeah. If I, if I'm gonna suffer, you're gonna suffer too. Uh, and, and, you know, there's, there's several sections. The, the book is, is split up into kind of relationship with self, relationship with others, and relationship with work. And in the relationship with others section, I basically tried and list all of the ways in which force can, can put other people through the ringer. And so there's sections titled and causing other people to walk on eggshells or not accepting apologies the first time. Um, because yeah, there's this, there's this sense that I've, I've been wronged or that I'm defective. Um, and that. Other people aren't noticing that other people are empathizing with that. And so I'm not going to get the microphone unless I take it. I'm not going to get attention from other people unless I force it.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 16:04

Yeah. And I think that plays into that, right? I mean, so for our listeners, a lot of people might not know a lot about the sexual force subtype, um, because different people teach it differently. Of course. Um, so we have the self preservation for, they tend to be more, um, inward for us. Actually, I think this is a big misnomer or misconception for us can be very task oriented, um, at times, and especially when they're really motivated to do something. So, uh, self preservation for us tend to show up. Actually, sexual fours do this a little bit too, but tend to show up a lot more like threes. They're very, um, driven. They feel a lot. They're very sensitive, but they don't show people. And I think all fours put gargantuan energy into showing up appropriately at work because they've gotten so much feedback that they're too emotional. Right. We'll talk about too emotional. Right. Um, and then social fours, um, they're often called, so sexual, Self preservation fours are called tenacity, social fours are called shame, and they have like, they're just a softer kind of four. Um, they tend to be really warm, really loving, and they have more of a sadness that they kind of wear on their sleeve a little bit more. Um, so even when they feel really happy, they also have like this real tenderness about them. Um, and they're just like very sweet, kind people. Um, and. Not to say that the other two, four subtypes aren't, but that's not how they lead, um, in the world. And sexual force tend to be very driven. They're very competitive and they have this real sense of, you know, inferiority and superior and, um, superiority. So like everyone is either better or worse. Nobody's equal.

Reagan Pugh: 17:47

Amen.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 17:47

And so that's a driving force. So when you, what is it called? Oh, it's called competition. when you're like, okay, that, that fits for me.

Reagan Pugh: 17:59

Yeah. You, you're constantly looking around and, and everything's a scorecard and you're trying to understand, you know, where, where am I in relation to other people? And I, the inferiority superiority thing, Steph is, is huge. Uh, and I've caught myself throughout my journey. Feeling superior or trying to demonstrate that I'm superior, uh, and, and understanding the subtypes really helped me understand that that's all just a masquerade because it's really rooted in a deep sense of inferiority, a fear of defectiveness.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 18:34

Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think that's so difficult and like, so isolating because you're wanting something different. You're wanting a sense of worth or a sense of connection with other people. And what you're getting is, well, pushing people away maybe sometimes.

Reagan Pugh: 18:55

Yeah, the, the language around push pull that a force have is, is, is really important. is also really appropriate to describe my experience. Um, this, uh, I want your attention and your approval desperately, but then when I get it, maybe it's not enough or maybe it doesn't come in the way that I thought it should. And so I feel complicated about that too.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 19:18

yeah. And I think I really appreciate how fours are able to articulate. This is how I think about things. And this is how I feel about things. Um, but I just always know that anytime I put something out on Instagram, or, you know, even when I'm teaching in these corporate workshops, the fours are going to have some clarifications that they'd like to add to what I share about them, which is great. You know, it's fine. Like, I welcome that. I want everyone to share from their own experience, but it is interesting how there's always that layer of nuance that Forrest can add,

Reagan Pugh: 19:46

Yeah. Well, because any general, uh, definition could never appropriately describe me. You, you, you might, you might get me 98 percent right, but not a hundred percent. No way.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 19:58

Right. So this is a question that I am just thinking about as we're chatting about this, but like, what was it like for you to recognize how emotional you truly are? Cause in some ways the anger masks it, right? But recognizing your core emotionality, you're a man in Texas and you may be, have been told you're not allowed to be emotional. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Reagan Pugh: 20:30

Yeah, I never, I've struggled with my sense of masculinity, um, having been a deep feeler from a young age who hit puberty really, really late. So in middle school, um, sports, I just wasn't as competitive. And and then as a four once I didn't seem to be, um, able to keep up with everyone that just reinforced the sense of defectiveness. And so, uh, I ran to things like theater and I became an English major and I found these ways to express myself, um, and enjoyed and really did well in those things. But man, I, um, I recall this, uh, this, this, this constant storyline of, um, you know, you're not that much of a, you're not that much of a go getter. You're not as masculine as you could be. Um, and my guy friends, you know, I, I was forced to have really good friends, but I recall particularly after college is we were all kind of navigating the first steps of our career, but he's being like, dude, what was your killer instinct? Where's your killer instinct, man? Like are you going to hustle? And I just remember feeling this deep sense of shame that I was so tripped up by this emotional rollercoaster that I was on that I couldn't seem to move into the only currency that most other men were dealing in, which is action, movement, productivity.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 22:14

Yeah. And I think I'm sure that would add to that feeling of being defective and it's, it's really challenging. I think, you know, I see a lot of women, I remember myself when I was in that same age range doing a job interview and asking like, where do you see yourself in five years? And I asked like the highest ranked person on the table, what's your job title? I'll take that one. And like, I just remember always getting the feedback, like, chill out. Like, ambition is a dirty word. You know what I mean? So it's interesting how like that gender dynamic can come into play when we, you know, there's something a little bit natural about it. Um, that's like, there's some sort of innate sense of how we actually are, regardless of gender.

Reagan Pugh: 23:05

so you felt like you had to suppress that and hide that.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 23:09

Yeah.

Reagan Pugh: 23:11

That must have been hard.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 23:14

Yeah. I mean, We all get a lot of feedback, right? And so I would always get feedback, like, you're not supportive or you're not compassionate or things like that, which is shocking to me, because I do feel like I'm those things, but that's probably, uh, the main characteristic that I lead with. So, you know, it's all like a learning process of, of learning to balance and also why I think the Enneagram is helpful. Like, um, when I talk with people, um, On teams, I ask, well, what's some feedback that you've gotten throughout your career? And often that will tell us something about their type, right? Um, cause it hurts, but it's still kind of true.

Reagan Pugh: 23:56

Oh my goodness. So because I'm a forward, and I'm so interested in personal development and understanding who I am, I remember early in my professional career, I was told send out an email to people who know you well and ask them some of these questions about you. And I, so you can understand how to package yourself. And I remember that the feedback coming back, Stephanie, and this is actually where the title for my book came. I remember the feedback coming back and the feedback I received was, um, Emotional, too emotional, you're, you would have so much potential if you didn't let your emotions get in the way and that was a dead ringer for what my type ended up being.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 24:35

And I bet that fixed everything, right?

Reagan Pugh: 24:37

Oh yeah, you know, yeah man, just been footloose and fancy free since then.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 24:43

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So tell me a little bit about your book title to emotional. Was that something you immediately gravitated toward, or did you kind of brainstorm that? Did it come before the book, after the book?

Reagan Pugh: 24:58

Yeah, I don't know how it's supposed to work when you write a book, but it came before I remember where I was. We were in New Mexico and I had a manuscript of another book that I started. Yeah. And it just wasn't singing the way I wanted it to. And I knew I had to make a pivot and I got the advice. Write the book to your younger self, which is cheesy as it is. It's a great piece of advice. Um, write what you know. Um, and I thought, man, what brings tears to my eyes? Um, it's thinking about my younger self and in the hard lessons that he's learned. Um. This idea of writing a book for people who experience their emotions and confuse them for reality feels really true and too emotional came up and then the book followed.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 25:53

Yeah. So the whole title is Too Emotional, Overcome the Thunderstorm of Feelings, Shame, and Self Doubt. Um, and I'm curious to hear a little bit more about that shame piece and how do you see that playing a role in your life, but also in other people's lives? Because my sense reading the book was not that it was like, Hey, all fours come over here and read this book. But like anyone who identifies with that theme of being too emotional, and it seems like shame. Is obviously going to be a big part of that as well.

Reagan Pugh: 26:27

Certainly. Um, yeah, the hope is that that all heart types certainly can, can find a little bit of themselves in the book and that people who are in relationship with them can as well. Um, when I think about shame, um, I wish I could credit whoever said it, but there's the line about how, you know, guilt is whenever you feel bad about something you did. Shame is when you feel bad about who you are. And I think the way that shame has shown up in my life and in the lives of the people that I hope to be able to serve, it's just kind of this constant cloud. It's like thunderstorm that's over you. That tents everything. with negative, with negative beliefs about yourself. And it's like, uh, you kind of wander around thinking, uh, well, I must've done something wrong or the shoes about to drop. Um, and it's all my fault. Uh, it kind of comes down to this idea that things aren't going the way that I want them to, and somehow it must be my fault. And, uh, I think that's the way that, that it shows up most.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 27:41

Yeah. I think I remember Brene Brown saying that about shame and guilt. Shame is just such a powerful force and even looking at some some things that happen in our childhoods and like how they really are very sticky because of the shame aspect of it. Yeah.

Reagan Pugh: 27:58

Yeah, I'm, I'm trying to get my, my hands around, uh, a more clear definition here. Uh, but when I, I definitely can't look back to the childhood and kind of feeling like there was always like a, I'm in trouble or I did something wrong kind of a thing. And so then that pervades the rest of your life. And even whenever you've got good intentions, it's hard to be able to believe, uh, I'm good. And that's a hard thing to experience. That's baked in there.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 28:35

I'm curious as I was reading your book, I also really wanted to ask about feelings just in general, because a lot of your advice is like, you know, kind of separate from them. And you even mentioned earlier, feelings are not reality, right? Um, and I think that there is a level where we can have emotional truth without things being like objectively always true. Um, and I'm curious how you take that guidance, like feel your feelings. People have been saying that a lot in these past few years. And I feel like every self help, anything is like, feel your feelings, feel your feelings. And I felt a little bit more like your guidance was like, no, no, no. Don't feel all your feelings all the time. do you kind of navigate that?

Reagan Pugh: 29:23

So that is the guidance is, is, and with the caveat that it's, my guidance is for a specific audience. And whenever you go to write a book, really scary because if you want to write a book for a really specific audience, you know, that maybe if you're talking Enneagram language, I may be isolating two thirds of potential readers who could be head types or gut types because I'm writing for the heart types. So if I'm talking to a head type or a gut type, I'm like, yeah, feel those feelings. You should do it. But for my heart types, when I hear the feel the feelings things, especially force, I think to myself, Uh, you know what? You're not going to escape from unhelpful or negative feelings by feeling more feelings like that. The currency doesn't work that way. And that's the cycle for a four specifically is I'm just going to daisy chain a bunch of feelings onto one another. Uh, and then I'm going to wallow in the melancholy. Um, and so I, yeah, I hope that. people reading the book who don't really resonate with the idea of feeling because the core story of the book is there are some people in the world who feel defective and, and their feelings have become their, their coping mechanism for that. And if you don't resonate with that, I hope that you can see maybe what it looks like to be more in touch with your feelings. Um, the, the transition in the book is it, it closes with, um, you know, Not all of our feelings are bad, and the positive side for a four is that we deal in the language of emotions. And so whenever we can detach from unhelpful ones and when we can identify helpful ones, we now have this superpower because there's plenty of people in our lives who don't. know how to get in touch with their feelings and feel adrift whenever they do. And Forge can be really helpful companions to those people,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 31:32

Yeah. And I think, you know, You know, it's, it's not so much feel them or don't feel them. It's more about like, have some sort of agency in, you know, how deeply you're feeling them or not feeling them, like not being adrift either direction. I'm curious if you can share, uh, there's a story that you told about, um, being at like a bar or brewery or something and everyone is having a great time. And you just hated it. Mm

Reagan Pugh: 31:59

Yeah, yeah, is uh, uh, is the, I think the opening story is, is we're at a, we're at a dance hall and and I'm with my boss and we had been cranking away. We rented a little house in the Texas Hill Country because we need to do some work. And so we've been cranking away all day. And he said, let's go out for dancing and beer out of Lucan Bach, Texas, classic dance hall. And, uh, There ended up being this group of moms who were out for a girl's night. They all had bedazzled jeans on, you know, and they wanted to two step and my boss is charming. He's a eight and he's got all this energy and he's charming and he's dancing and twirling them and one of them wants to teach me and everybody's kind of grabbing at you, pulling me, inviting me onto the dance floor. And for some reason from the drive to where we were staying to that dance hall that night, I got in a funk. And if you're an emotional type, you know what it means to get in a funk. And I remember just gluing myself to my chair and sitting alone with a pitcher of beer. And I knew that I was in a funk. I knew I was being melancholy. I knew that it would be really simple for me to get up and join the dance. But for some reason I couldn't see through the fog of my emotions. And so I just stood there the entire evening and kind of made it a little worse for everybody else.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 33:21

Yeah.

Reagan Pugh: 33:21

And I can't tell you how many times that's happened. And for those people who experienced their emotions, they know that those moments are happening. And then afterward, you, you might go home and you look back at the night and you might even tell yourself, I should have danced. I should have participated. And

Stephanie Barron Hall: 33:41

Or you might say, what was wrong with you in that

Reagan Pugh: 33:45

Yeah. Yeah. What was wrong with me in that moment? Um, So the book is, is really, yeah, I wish it were, I wish it were like more nuanced, but the book is really a push for people who spend their energy in their internal world to realize that moving into the external world and participating is going to give them all the things that they think they're going to be able to conjure with their self reflection and their interior Spelunky.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 34:15

Yeah. What are some practices that you have now that you're like in a funk? How do you manage that now? Do you just like let yourself be and not judge it? Do you go out with a friend? Do you go for a run? You know, what are the helpful things now?

Reagan Pugh: 34:33

The simple way of putting it is trying to bring awareness to where am I, am I, am I living inside or am I living my life in real life? Like, am I living externally? And if we can bring awareness, To moments when we are in the book, I talk about taking your inner elevator all the way down, uh, if we can see when we're just like going down into our inner elevator and finding solace in the little cave where we've got all of our insecurities and, and emotions, uh, that allows us to say, okay, I got to do something outside. And so what that looks like, some of the ideas that I share are people. Connecting with people, a defined collaboration. If you're an emotional type, particularly the kind of person I wrote the book for, you know, whenever you see someone call you, you want to avoid the call and you don't want to pick up the phone. We suck at picking up the phone. Uh, but I'll tell you what, a practice that I've tried is pick up the phone when it rings. Even if you can only say, Hey, I can't talk very long, but I just wanted to pick up and say, hello.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 35:43

yeah,

Reagan Pugh: 35:44

moving your body, changing your biology, going on a run, getting out of the house, Emotional types can obsess over creating the perfect day. And oftentimes that might mean no disturbances from anyone else, but oftentimes it's connecting with other people, moving our body, asking for feedback that works, um, moving into action of any kind. There's a tool called fake it for five that I add in the book, which is set a timer for five minutes. And what I want you to do is I want you to pretend that you're the kind of person who wants to do whatever you have to do. And this is going to be hard, but just pretend. And when five minutes is over, you can reassess. And I'll tell you what, after five minutes, I've never not wanted to continue what I'm doing because motivation is not a feeling that we summon. Motivation is a result of us taking action and feeling the wind in our back.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 36:39

yeah, yeah. And I think that that is so challenging to recognize because, I'll speak from my own experience. I used to always be that type of person who just always kind of felt motivated, you know? Um, and I just don't anymore. Like a lot of the time I'm like, I don't feel like it. And it just takes doing something to be like, all right, I'm We can get this snowball going, you know, um, and then it feels better.

Reagan Pugh: 37:08

absolutely. But our behaviors shape our beliefs. I think we need to observe ourselves doing a thing that we don't want to do to remind ourselves to create the neural pathways that we can do those things. And Oh yeah, most often we feel better on the other end of any sort of participation in our real life.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 37:30

Uh, but it's so hard to remember when you're like, I don't want to though. I just want to keep reading. That's my trap.

Reagan Pugh: 37:36

Oh yeah. Yeah. I, yeah. Some people in this world call it opposite action. You know, uh, an easy way of thinking about it is whatever your ego tells you, you need to do, just choose opposite action. Um, and that's normally the healthier thing.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 37:49

Yeah. Yeah. Um, I wanted to ask about when you're writing for other people, what do they need to know about being with somebody who is in this too emotional space?

Reagan Pugh: 38:04

Yeah. It's really dark and stormy inside someone who's in the emotional space. And, um, we're already down enough on ourselves. So for people, dealing with those of us in the emotional space. I think one thing that's helpful to know is, uh, we're so, we're, we're often very, very self reflective. And so we're already pretty, pretty clear on all the things that we're not doing correctly or all of the things we should be doing. Um, and we could probably articulate all of those things to you. Uh, the issue is just, uh, we, we can't move into the right, the right action. Um, so, you know, my wife, If she had heard your others, this book would have been done two years ago. And Steph, it probably could have been, and it probably could have been is the level of quality it is today. Um, but you know, we're really never going to learn anything when someone pushes us into action. We're going to have to learn how to take action for ourselves. So my wife is the perfect example for anyone who's looking to be in relationship with a, an emotional type or a hard type. She validates my feelings. Um, she says things like that must be hard and she doesn't try to make me things, do things, um, that I don't want to do. Um, and for people who are motivated by action, that can seem really frustrating, perhaps. But I've found that her brand of partnership, Um, really works, uh, because the real thing that needs to happen for us emotional types or for those of us who feel defective, isn't that we learn to start taking action.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 40:00

Right.

Reagan Pugh: 40:01

that's a bandaid. We need to remember that we're whole and that there's nothing wrong with us. And if someone else can help us feel that, I think that's the greatest gift that they can be given.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 40:14

Yeah.

Reagan Pugh: 40:15

And if you're trying to use feelings to motivate your action. Right. So as a sexual for man, I can have a month where I'm like inspired and driven and I'm running off of feeling.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 40:28

Mm hmm.

Reagan Pugh: 40:29

Um, but guess what? Our feelings are really fickle. And so when the feelings change, you know, all of a sudden the output changes.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 40:38

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Reagan Pugh: 40:43

trust that moving to the virtue of a four, it's gotta be the trust in this equanimity. That, um, I'm whole and I am good and I'm no better or no worse than anyone else. I have an invitation to participate as well.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 41:02

Yeah. I love, when I first learned the Enneagram and I heard equanimity for fours, I was like, hmm, I'm not sure I really get it, but like. Over the years, it just is so beautiful to think about that concept of just being like one of the people, like one of all of these beautiful people and not having to stand out in either direction. Um, and I know for a lot of four is that they, that feels really scary and really like, why would you ever want that? Um, but I think all of our virtues feel a little bit like that along

Reagan Pugh: 41:37

Certainly. Yeah. there's a great release comes whenever you realize I don't have to prove anything.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 41:43

Yeah. Yeah. Um, earlier you mentioned sexual four being like the angriest type on the Enneagram. You mentioned you had a boss who was an eight, and I'm curious for you, how did you know that you were a sexual four and not an eight? Like how do you see that?

Reagan Pugh: 42:02

Oh, I love it. I love it. I guess who I get along with really well. Apes. One of my best friends here in Austin is an ape. And I remember the day that he said he had to ask me some advice about how he handled a situation and he prefaced it with, so I need your advice as a brother in anger. Uh,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 42:22

I love that.

Reagan Pugh: 42:23

So we can, you know, ramp each other up like two dogs in a backyard, you know, and the. The way that I was able to tell the difference is, uh, whenever my friends who are eights ran into roadblocks or ran into disappointments, um, or, or, uh, things didn't go the way that they wanted. Um, Their level of energy and confidence and their ability to move forward did not waver. In some ways, this desire to go against, they were even more motivated to just like get a monkey wrench and figure the thing out. Uh, as a four, when you run into roadblocks or disappointments or things don't go the way that you thought they would go, or you don't get the affirmation you thought you would. The default mechanism is to retreat into your internal world to say what's wrong with me to move toward melancholy and shame. And often that looks like a lack of action. So roadblocks make AIDS go harder? For a four, I've noticed they would make me want to lay on the couch for three days.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 43:29

Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Um, Well, and I think one of the big similarities that I see and why you might get along so well is that desire for that authenticity and transparency and just really kind of laying it all out there and, and, um, having that intensity about life, but then you do completely different things with that.

Reagan Pugh: 43:51

Yeah, yeah. With my eight, we do a yearly retreat for some men that I'm close with. And for the longest time, uh, there was a, you know, a three and a four in the group. And I would say, Hey, okay guys, this year, anytime you notice me stepping out of line or anytime you notice me not being true to the goals I set for the year, I want you to tell me, I want you to hold me accountable. And they would always say that they would in January and then never wants the entire year where they call me out on my BS or push me. But we added an eight to the mix this last year and it's May and already he's come to me and been like, dude, you're not pushing. Like you said, you would. Hey, you said you wanted this and your actions aren't aligning with it. And I love it. I love it.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 44:37

man. It's funny because I think threes can be direct and certainly for me. Somebody tries to drop a hint straight over my head. I have no idea. Like, what? Is that a hint? Uh, but I think threes can be more, um, conflict avoidant than people expect because they're heart types. And threes are like, all the time when I teach this, people are like, threes are like, I'm not a heart type. And then I teach about threes and I'm like, okay, nevermind, you know,

Reagan Pugh: 45:11

Yeah. So what's behind that? Because I think threes, just like other heart types are still dealing in the language of relationships. Like that's, that's a core concern for them. Right. Uh, but, and, and so, but then what is that? Help me understand why that there seems to be resistance to being more direct.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 45:37

um, I think that there's just such a consideration of like, what do they think about me or what will they think if I do this or if I say this and, and I think that threes. Um, and I think, you know, I think self preservation threes might be like, well, maybe they're borrowing a little bit from their nine wing thinking, uh, maybe I'll just not rock the boat, you know, I think self preservation threes can be more direct, but in general, they're more reserved. Um, so they're not always the one who's gonna kind of call somebody out.

Reagan Pugh: 46:06

Got it.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 46:07

But I think threes are a lot, uh, they're just not as assertive as, as eights are a lot of the time, unless they're backed up against a wall and like having to prove themselves. But if they feel really secure in a relationship, they don't feel that same drive to like, I have to show you how great I am, or I have to prove myself or inspire or impress you. Um, and so, which is a great space for a three to be in, in a relationship, right, of like not having to impress people. Um, but. It does mean I think that there's less of the assertiveness outright. Um, though in my most comfortable relationships, I'm pretty confrontational and, but not like in a bad way, I'm just like, Hey, you know, what's up with that? And then we talk about it and it's fine. Um, so it can be challenging for me to be in relationship with people who can't handle conflict. Um, I like to have everything above board, but.

Reagan Pugh: 47:05

I hear that. Mm-hmm

Stephanie Barron Hall: 47:07

But maybe that's also the, we share the same instinctual stacking.

Reagan Pugh: 47:12

We share the same one.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 47:15

maybe that also plays, plays into it.

Reagan Pugh: 47:18

So with social, with you being social repressed, um, what does that, what does that look like in your life?

Stephanie Barron Hall: 47:27

Um, well, I've had, had some really difficult social experiences. Um, whether that's from like when I was a kid and like being bullied or, um, when just a few years ago I was in a community and left and basically like lost all of my friendships. Um, so I've had these things happen. But now I am very resistant to joining like groups, even groups that I know will be good for me. Um, like I'm very much like, Oh, I don't know, like, I don't want to label myself that I'm just like not a joiner in that sense. Um, and and even, you know, when I was in college and there'd be school spirit days, I'd be like, Ugh, I'm not doing that

Reagan Pugh: 48:12

Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 48:13

school to, you know, middle school, high school people like come like decked out in the school colors. And I'm like, I'm not doing that.

Reagan Pugh: 48:20

Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 48:23

And so I think some people in my life definitely thought I was a four when we first were learning the Enneagram because of that, but I actually think it has more to do with being social repressed.

Reagan Pugh: 48:32

Yeah. Oh, that makes sense. I think for, for me, it, it kind of looks like fearing what? Social interactions are going to require of me, uh, worrying about the energy spent and if I'm going to be able to perform adequately. So here's this envy showing up, uh, again, uh, where I'm in the sexual instinct, where am I going to stack at the party? And so being social oppressed, I often feel like I, I have a lot of pre anxiety about social interactions. Because as a self referencing for I'm going, I imagine that everyone after the party, after I leave is going to have a conversation in a smoke filled room. Like did he stack up to what we thought he would be like, was he, or was he just kind of like overblown? Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 49:32

It's so funny how all of our work, our brains like work differently about those sorts of things and how even like the social repress. Then can be different because I definitely have social anxiety and I feel very anxious, but I also, in my mind I connect that to feedback I've gotten about how I show up in different spaces, you know? So I connected to that versus thinking, Oh, in the future, they're going to judge me. It's like, huh? Last time I talked to somebody, they thought this about me.

Reagan Pugh: 50:05

man. Those stories, that feedback that we hang on to that, don't we?

Stephanie Barron Hall: 50:09

Hmm.

Reagan Pugh: 50:10

Gosh, that's tough.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 50:12

Yeah. It's like that Rick Hansen quote, we're Techlan for the positive and velcro for the negative. Yeah.

Reagan Pugh: 50:21

one.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 50:27

Um, do you have any other practical advice for fours who might be listening?

Reagan Pugh: 50:36

Yeah. In our, in our work, you know, we have a hard time finishing things. We have a far a hard time making contributions in work. We have a hard time being a worker among workers because we want everything to be meaningful, and we want everything to feel like it's full of purpose. And it's really difficult for us to summon motivation anyway. And especially it's difficult for us to summon motivation when we don't feel like there's some big existential reason why we're doing our work. So in the workplace for four is the thing that I like to guide people toward is you need to get really great at doing unsexy work. You need to, you need to be really, you need to learn the practice of just moving through things because here's the deal, force always worry, uh, it, Is this unique enough? Is there going to be enough meaning in this work? And what they don't realize is inherently a four is already so nuanced and so introspective That if you were to just start making regular contributions that you actually put into the world You cannot help but add your unique flavor to that. You cannot help but make it meaningful and intentional so Just do things, just submit ideas, just do unsexy work. And then you're going to be able to look back and you're going to be able to see where there was meaning infused in all of that. That's in the workplace. In relationships, we have to get better at realizing that everything is not about us. And we have to realize that because we're worried that everyone's overlooking us, we're going to try and haunt the spotlight because we believe that we need as much affirmation as we can get. Um, but what we're really after, what we're really after is connection. We're after the opposite of the isolation that we feel. And the way that we get that is by doing the opposite of what our default programming tells us to do, which is make it about other people, be of service, let them share their experience, talk about what they want to talk about. Even if it's not meaningful to you, uh, there's a line I use in the book sometimes for a four or someone who's too emotional. Small talk can be an act of service. Just follow someone else's agenda.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 53:13

Yeah. And I think that act of moving toward people instead of always moving away and like kind of inviting people to chase you can be really helpful because I think fours want to feel pursued. Um, but in a lot of relationships, That's not how they work. Some relationships do, but a lot of them don't. Um, and it can leave you feeling really like nobody actually wants you, when in reality they do. They just are like, do you want to show up to meet me halfway here?

Reagan Pugh: 53:45

Absolutely. The emotions that cloud our judgment, uh, prevent us from seeing the reality, um, and admitting that, uh, we can't, we're not so special that we get to get all of the positive things in life without doing any of the work. So. When you're unconscious as a four, it's easy to look around and play a victim and say, no one's pursuing me, uh, nobody, no, nobody, I don't, my, my friends aren't my true friends. Uh, but whenever you start to be able to see that emotion, bring awareness to it, accept that that's a coping mechanism, and then wonder what your part is in it. You can start to say, when's the last time I reached out to them? Or when's the last time I showed up for them without their request? And you can slowly start to see where equinamity plays a part. I'm no better or worse of a friend than them. Uh, eventually someone's going to have to go first to keep this relationship going. I can be the person to go first this time.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 54:47

Yeah. Yeah, that's such good advice. Well, before we get into your last two questions, where can people find you? And most importantly, by your book? Um, because I just saw the cover, it's So lovely. I can't wait for people to read it. And I'm gonna order one myself too, even though I already read the PDF, but I'm gonna read it

Reagan Pugh: 55:07

you, Thank you, Steph. Uh, I'm at reaganpugh. com. R E A G A N P U G H. com. We decided it was a good idea to launch a new website and a new book in the same week, which was stupid and crazy, but we did it. So information on book and, thank you. Information on book and speaking is there. Um, or you can just search too emotional and Amazon and the book is there. And I'd love to connect on Instagram at Reagan, Pugh, R E H E A N P U G H.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 55:38

Perfect. I will link all of that up in the show notes. So final two questions I ask everyone. Tell me about a book that has helped you, refreshed you, or shaped you in the last year.

Reagan Pugh: 55:49

Have you read 4, 000 weeks by Oliver Berkman?

Stephanie Barron Hall: 55:52

Yeah,

Reagan Pugh: 55:52

Oh,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 55:53

such a good one.

Reagan Pugh: 55:54

I think it was like the best one in the last two years for me. Um, the reason why it was so helpful is because the subtitle of the book is time management for mortals. And it's a little bit of a different time management book because it doesn't necessarily tell you how to be more productive or get more done. What it helps to is it helps shift your perspective to realize that, you know what, actually we have such a small amount of time on this earth and actually we're all pretty insignificant. Um, and we're going to die. And you know what the greatest gift of freedom, uh, can be is realizing that, uh, life is so short and we're so insignificant and we're just a blip on the timeline of the universe. So hopefully it gives you freedom to have the courage to do whatever it is you want to do. And I think that's really good advice for a four.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 56:45

Yeah, such good advice. And I think, you know, for myself as well, it was So impactful because it really did help me also see I'm expecting so much of myself. Like he talks about these studies where you can only really do three to four hours of deep work a day. But as a, um, you know, solo business owner, a lot of the time I'm like, Oh, I'm not focusing for eight hours straight every single day. And I would beat myself up about that. And it's helpful for me to just constantly remind myself it's okay. I can't do eight hours of like Writing a day, you know, things like that.

Reagan Pugh: 57:25

Right,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 57:27

that. little darkness of time management for mortals of like, like just bring death front of mind. I'm sure that really got to you as a four, just like that darkness of that image. You're like, yes.

Reagan Pugh: 57:36

yeah. Yeah. Yeah that yeah the stoic philosophy of the kind of memento mori the meditate on your death Yeah. Really helpful.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 57:45

Uh, so what is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Reagan Pugh: 57:52

I'll go back to the the idea that We're not going to find freedom from our unhelpful feelings by feeling more feelings Uh, life is lived out in the world and I'm so lucky to be married to a seven who drags me out into the world. Um, but participating in one's life looks like including others and, and, and taking action. And when we do that, we can witness ourselves becoming different. And I think participation is the core theme that has benefited me the most.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 58:38

That's such fantastic advice. Thanks so much for coming on here today and sharing all of your wisdom. It's been a great conversation and I can't wait for everyone to get their hands on your new book.

Reagan Pugh: 58:49

Thank you, Steph. This was a gift.

Steph Barron Hall: 58:51

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify