1:54

Hello and welcome to any gram in real life. The podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host, Stephanie Barron hall and on today's episode. I have a much awaited topic, but before I get into that, I wanted to share that today's episode is not for little ears. So if you. Have kiddos around, or if you're listening out loud at work. Um, this one is not safe for work. so I'll give you a second here to put some headphones in or turn it off before we get into today's topic. Today. I am talking to the Enneagram sex spurts, Lindsay Frasier and Dr. Sam E Greenberg. Lindsay is a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex therapist and an international Enneagram association or IEA accredited, any grant professional she has presented on the intersection of the Instagram relationships and sexuality and various us and international forums. She is one of the few sex therapists in the world, working explicitly with the Instagram. And Lindsey regularly makes guests. Appearances on podcasts and offers private and public presentations as an internationally recognized Enneagram expert. Lindsey has also had a private practice for the last 12 years in south Minneapolis, where she specializes in relationships and sexuality. Using the Enneagram. Dr. Sami Greenberg is a writer, researcher, and Enneagram coach whose work focuses on sexuality and relationships. Sam's research explores the intersection of any grub type and instinct with patterns of sexual desire and expression. Her research informs her approach to supporting clients and building fulfilling relationships and actualizing sexual potential. Sam has presented her research findings in the us and abroad and offers workshops on multiple aspects of any REM in sexuality. On today's episode, we talk all about the instincts and sexuality. So we thought we might have time to get to each of the nine types, but actually we, we just had time to cover the instincts And salmon Lindsay told me all about how the different dominant instincts. So those are self-preservation social and sexual. How each of them approach sex. Um, some of the challenges that they might face and then some practical tips on how to approach things differently or how to work with the partner who is a different dominant instinct than you are. So, if you want to learn more about that topic, they actually have a workshop I've attended one of these in the past, and I really, really enjoyed it. It was just a great welcoming space to discuss this topic. Um, they have an upcoming virtual Enneagram type and sexuality workshop on March 13th and tickets are available for presale now through February 7th. So make sure you click the link in the show notes. If you're interested in that at all, they also have an upcoming full day in person workshop called Enneagram and sexuality for transformed relationships. And that will take place on July 28th in Minnesota, the day after the IEA international conference. So if you're not familiar with the international Enneagram association, um, or IEA, their conference is in. Minnesota this year and this conference is just a great way to learn from many of your favorite Enneagram teachers, or just to mingle and, and kind of get to know people. Um, who also love the Enneagram and you will also get to hear papers presented in different workshops on topics. That might be newer theories that people are kind of floating and wanting to discuss in more detail during the conference. So if you are interested in that at all and have the means to get to Minnesota in July. pre-sale for this workshop is available now through March 31st. And so again, that link is in the show notes. And finally one more thing to mention, um, that you can start listening to now. Is Sam and Lindsay offer a sexy first Fridays on Instagram live. Where they talk about the Enneagram and sexuality every first Friday of the month. So be sure to check that out. You can find them on Instagram at Lindsay Frasier. So L Y N D S E Y F R a S E R. LMF T. Or. Sam is at ennea. Underscore gazumped. So, again, both of those links are in the show notes, but make sure you check that out because they answer questions and just talk about different concepts related to this topic. I really enjoyed this conversation with Lindsay and Sam. And definitely. Continue to follow them. If this is a topic that you're interested in, because I know it's something that can be so enlightening and helpful for us in our relationships. So without further ado here is my conversation with the Enneagram experts.

Steph Barron Hall: 6:32

Well, Sam and Lindsay, welcome to the podcast,

Dr. Sam: 6:35

Thanks for having us!

Lyndsey: 6:37

Yes, thank you.

Steph Barron Hall: 6:39

I'm so excited to talk with you because I get a lot of questions about this topic today, um, especially around sex. And I know we're going to talk about the instincts a bit. Um, people just want to know, we're just really curious, we want to know everything about sex. So I would love to hear, um, from both of you a little bit about your background, um, and your introduction to not only, you know, yourself, but also to the Enneagram in general.

Lyndsey: 7:08

Yes, I can go first. My name is Lindsay Frazier. Um, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist as well as a certified sex therapist as well as an IA credit professional. Um, and I was actually introduced to the Enneagram by, um, two other therapists that live here in, well, they live in South Minneapolis, but they're in Minnesota. Um, and the interesting thing is when they first brought it up, we used to get lunches together. And they kept talking about these numbers and like, I didn't ask them probably for like three or four lunches because I didn't know what they were talking about. And then finally I was like, what are you guys talking about? Um, and they said, Oh, it's this, we had just got this training and using the Enneagram with clients. And this was about eight years ago. Um, and they thought, and they said, and we think you're a nine. So, um, which was, which was interesting. I'm like, well, what is the nine? And they said, well, the nine is the peacekeeper. And here's some of the things that we see in you. And then I had taken a test and they kind of helped me explore and figure out what my type was. Um, but I was a therapist first before I even was introduced to the Enneagram. or, um, using it, um, actually was already a certified sex therapist at the time as well. And so I had been, um, a therapist before I even introduced the Andogram into my practice, which I've had my practice about 12 years now. Maybe I'm going to my 13th. It's so hard to kind of keep track of. And I've probably been using the Andogram in my practice, um, the last eight years or so.

Steph Barron Hall: 8:35

Cool. Um, so funny that they just immediately told you you're a nine.

Lyndsey: 8:41

If they

Steph Barron Hall: 8:42

What was your reaction to that? Yeah,

Lyndsey: 8:46

know, initially I didn't really want to be a nine because like when you look at the nine, like I looked at him like, oh my God, it's the pushover type. Um, you know, what does that say about who I am? How do they see me? And not knowing at the time about the social piece of it too. So there was also this like, okay, here's, here's It's part of my social group sort of telling me, you know, what I am and what I look like and things like that. And so initially it was hard and one, and one of them is a nine and one of them is an eight. And of course it was the eight who told me what she thought I was

Dr. Sam: 9:15

Sure.

Steph Barron Hall: 9:19

it can be really challenging. I'm glad that it worked out okay for you. I think sometimes that can be hard and people can feel a little bit misunderstood.

Lyndsey: 9:28

definitely,

Steph Barron Hall: 9:29

Sam, what about you? Um, tell us about yourself and your background.

Dr. Sam: 9:33

Um, I'm Sam E. Greenberg. I am a sexuality researcher primarily, and then I'm also a therapeutic coach focused on sexuality and the Enneagram and relationships. My background is in research. I'm originally trained as a researcher and in sexual and reproductive health research specifically. And how I discovered the Enneagram was in college, um, a friend of mine was taking, uh, I guess a psychology class where they use the wisdom of the Enneagram book. So I came across the book and like, none of my friend group was that interested in it, but I started reading it. And as soon as I got to five, it was describing all the things unhealthy fives do. And You know, college students tend not to be that healthy. I was like, Oh my God, this is a complete list of everything I do. That's weird or confusing or that people don't like. And I thought it was just me and you know, something's wrong with me. And here's this book telling me like, no, everyone who's a five is wildly private, keep secrets, you know, all these things I was doing. So I knew I was a five right away. It was really obvious to me. Amen. That was 15, 16 years ago. I've been working with the enneagram 16 years. Um, I just loved it ever since then. It really helped me understand people and, um, later on to help people. So, My research is at the intersection of sexuality and the Enneagram, which are kind of my two passions.

Steph Barron Hall: 11:14

What inspired both of you to then like take this knowledge and integrate it into the work that you're doing? Because. I mean, I, I could see how it would be easy to be like, Oh, this kind of like makes sense a little bit, but I'm going to keep doing my normal research or, or therapy practice.

Dr. Sam: 11:30

Yeah. So in my case, I really wanted to go back to school and do an advanced degree. Um, I'm a type five, like I'm obsessed with learning and school. I'm currently talking myself out of doing like another degree program already, even though I just finished one. So, um, I was just trying to figure out what to study. And, um, my best friend actually helped me who's a nine also, um, helped me figure out like, Oh, what, what's your passions? Like, that's what you should study. And I was like, well, you know, it's definitely sex, sexuality, and the Enneagram has anyone looked at that? And you know, more or less, no one had looked at it in a research approach. Um, when I began the research that I did, um, later on, some people started looking at it as well. And it just was a perfect fit for me because it's like my two things that I love talking about, never get tired of, and, and, You definitely have to pick something you never get tired of because you're going to be thinking about nothing but that for like four to seven years when you do a PhD.

Steph Barron Hall: 12:32

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Why did you choose sexual, like why sexuality? Like why is this an interesting topic for, for the two of you?

Dr. Sam: 12:43

That's a deeper question. I feel like, um, that I don't know if I've talked about on podcasts before. Um, so I, I think for me, like I grew up in a, you know, Like a conservative county with no sex education. Um, my mom at the time, she's probably going to listen to this. So I'm going to be kind to her. But at the time she was really in this like evangelical Christian phase, which was really sex suppressive. Then I'm a sexual subtype. We'll talk about like what that means with sex, but basically like I was feeling really suppressed by my environment. And I ended up becoming the person that was like, taking friends to the health department to get birth control, like behind their parents backs. I was like, no, we're going to like take control of our own sexual health. And then it just ended up being really inspiring for me. So I ended up working in, in research in that arena.

Steph Barron Hall: 13:38

What about you, Lindsay?

Lyndsey: 13:39

um, for me. It's kind of two pieces. So first with the Enneagram, I think what was huge and why I started using it in my practice was actually more understanding of myself, and then even more understanding. So I'm married to a five, married to a five as well, who's a self preservation five. And I think for me, sort of the aha moment and why I thought it would be very helpful with clients in my offices is that my husband has this habit Transcribed Um, he doesn't listen to these, but he probably wouldn't like it that I shares these things, but I'm like, you know, um, he, he would ask me a lot of questions and what would come off to me would be that he was questioning that I didn't know what I was talking about or trying to start an argument with me. And it would be very difficult for me that this was kind of happening in relationship. And I think. Um, what I realized when I kind of had the aha moment was when I was learning more about fives and that the way that they try to connect to others is by asking those more inquisitive questions. And so when he was asking me, you know, where did you read that? Where'd you get that information? He was actually not like, you don't know what you're talking about. I'm asking you this because I want to learn more about you. And I want to learn more about more about the things that are interesting to you. And so it became almost this ability to kind of switch that lens. I'm like, Oh, like actually what he's doing is really. endearing in a way of connecting deeper to me. But because of my, my, my nineness and wanting the environment to be calm and not wanting have had to have conflict, I was interpreting sort of this behavior as a way to start conflict with me or to tell me that I didn't know what I was talking about or whatever else it might be. And so that kind of brought me into then bringing it in with clients, which has actually been really huge in my couples therapy work. Um, the sexuality piece, so, um, when I, most therapists get like a course in sexuality, some get none. Um, and so when I was at my practicum site, which was a, um, medical and mental health center for people that didn't have health insurance, unfortunately it's closed now because they couldn't get the funding. But at the time I was one of two marriage and family therapists Practicum students there and the rest were either psychologist students or LPCC students or licensed clinical social workers. And so because there were two of us, we got all of the couples that would come in. And I didn't feel like I'm like, and of course, when couples come in, they're going to talk about sex. And I didn't feel like, I'm like, I'm not even sure where to go with this with clients and that's what sort of pursued me towards going into sex therapy. The other piece for me too was, um, I didn't see people like me, which we're going to talk about a little bit more when we talk about instincts in the sexuality world. Um, and a lot of this now I've learned is because I'm a social dominant who has the sexual instinct in the repressed position. But they're just like, we're not people like me out there doing sexuality work. And I wanted people like me to feel seen, um, and really have some way that they could go to and in a lot of ways sort of start to have the voice for the people that were social dominance and self preservation dominance, because most of the sexuality work that has been done has been done by sexual instinct dominance, and then you get that sort of lens of like, this is what sex should be like, yet, um, Social and self preservers don't approach sex or think about sex that way. And I didn't know that language at the time, but I just knew I'm like, is there something wrong with me? I don't see sex this way. And a lot of my clients have also have also felt that way.

Steph Barron Hall: 17:13

Yeah, and I have noticed that, too, where it becomes almost like this hierarchical thing, like, the more free you are, like, expressively, the better. And, um, I do think that it's important to honor our own, like, whatever is happening for us internally with that. And I'm sure the both of you can speak a lot more to that than I can, of course. Um, Um, but I think that makes sense, coming from, you know, each of your different backgrounds. And I think, Sam, we could probably have a whole long podcast about purity culture because I was, I grew up in that. And so, um, I have a lot of thoughts on how that impacted me though, to be frank, I see it impacting me really differently as a sexual dominant. Subtype, um, versus friends of mine who were social or self pressed dominant, like in some ways I was like, but we're all still, you know, wink, wink, like nobody's actually like listening to that. Right. Um, and I think it was just like a different approach for me,

Dr. Sam: 18:13

Can relate.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:16

So I'm curious. Thanks. What do you think about how we each approach sexuality through the lens of our dominant instinct? I know you guys talk a lot about all the different types, but I'd love to focus a little bit more on the instincts first. Um, and maybe we'll just jump straight into the run through if that, it makes the most sense for you guys talking through the self preservation, social and sexual approaches to sexuality.

Dr. Sam: 18:44

Sure. and I'll just say one quick note, which is that, um, my research was originally just on type, although I had collected information on instinct as well to see if there were patterns. And the more I, um, Like learned and the more I worked with Lindsay and our other colleagues, the more we realized that dominant instinct or subtype is actually more influential or at least extremely influential on sexuality. So it's, it's a good place to start for sure.

Lyndsey: 19:15

I was gonna say what you're mentioning to Sam is like, we are also in the process of doing small focus groups with each type and it's instinctual stacking. So hopefully, hopefully we'll have like more information and not that long about that as well. Um, I can just start and talk a little bit about, um, the social instinct and sort of how they approach sexuality and sort of the meaning that they make out of sex. And I think one of the important things that we always talk about too, is, is that a lot of this is about the meaning that we make, right? And all of us make different meaning around what sexuality means. And so when we're talking about this, we're talking about sort of the meaning that the social instinct is going to make. And so for social instincts, it tends to be about bonding. And reassurance and connection to the partner. Um, and so it's, it's more about like, you know, if, if we're close and bonded and connected, then sex is sort of part of what happens with that, right? It's more of a give and take, it's a reciprocal, you know, what I do notice is, is that your social dominance are the ones that really have a good, like grasp on like, when's the last time we had sex and we should probably have sex again, if we haven't in a while, because that's going to make sure that we're going to stay bonded and connected. They can be. Um, ones that are more about service, right? Like I, I could take it or leave sex, but this will create more connection and bonding in my relationship. So I'm willing to give sex to kind of keep that bonding and connection there. Maybe even when they're not as interested in sexual intimacy as well. Um, they tend to use like relational tactics to kind of build connection and get closer to people. So it's like, um, you know, one of the things that I always think is interesting is like a lot of how I, you know, I do a lot of this like relational tactics and building. People sometimes didn't even know I was flirting with them or I was interested in them because I wasn't, I wasn't, they weren't getting the signals or anything. And I'm like, I'm asking all these questions about you. I'm doing all this relating. And that's especially if you have, so I'm, I'm social dominant and then I have self preservation necks and sexual instincts. And so really when I'm talking about that from a personal lens, um, that really is from a, a, you know, social. sexual instinct repressed position in the sense of like, I don't really know how to play with the sexual energy, which we'll talk about a little bit later. And so I was using a lot of relational tactics to get closer. They're, they're less jealous. They, um, tend to have better capacity for like open relationship dynamics and things like that. They can do better at sort of having multiple relationships at one time and kind of being able to stay connected and bonded. They don't tend to get jealous, which can also be hard. When we're going to talk about, which Sam will talk about the sexual instinct is when jealousy sort of signifies interest and attraction and desire. And they don't get jealous as frequently or as often, um, as well. And so they're going to, and also kind of cater to the parents, the partner's needs and things like that. So that's a little bit of sort of, of what like the social instinct looks like. What would you add, Sam? Did I miss anything there?

Dr. Sam: 22:11

I think you pretty much covered everything.

Lyndsey: 22:14

All right.

Dr. Sam: 22:17

Okay. So for sexual instinct, you're going to find the people are more passionate and intense. Generally, um, And there's also this, like, typically sexual, um, instinct dominant people can attract partners easily, um, because there are people who don't have trouble, like, dating or meeting people usually. And then there's, like, this more overt sexism. Sexuality to, I'm going to say us because I'm a sexual five, um, to us where it almost feels like, like a leaky sexual energy to some people, um, sexual dominance can just appear more sexual. That doesn't mean they actually are having more sex, by the way, or that they even have a higher sex drive. It's just that they have like this sort of a leak around their sexuality. In research, in my research, you know, sexual dominance are reporting that they have higher desire for partner and sex, that they are more sexually assertive, that they can, they engage with sexually explicit materials even more, they are not comfortable going long without sex, like, they're, they're not comfortable going long without sex. Sexual dominance are the least comfortable with sexual drive spells. Again, all this doesn't mean necessarily we have a higher sex drive, but it means that we are having sexuality as a higher part of our identity, or it's more, like, essential to us to feel safe that we're having a sexual connection with our partner or with anyone. Um, there's this desire in sex itself to completely dissolve the self, to To merge, to not have any boundaries between yourself and the other person. So the only thing I'll add for social that I'm Lindsey, I don't remember if you said is that social it's more like, here's me, here's you, we are. Boundaried individuals and then our boundaries are like touching but sexual is like break down all the boundaries There's no boundaries. There's no me and you it's it's one like we've completely merged and that's you know Really common to sexual dominance within sex itself um There's also, you know, the less good part, sometimes there's a moving from relationship to relationship because we're chasing that chemical high that we get when we really connect with someone. And if that starts to, like, burn out, which, you know, research shows after the honeymoon phase and the hormones are changing, It does drop sexual dominance who don't know they're chasing something that's impermanent will leave a relationship and go chase that with someone else. So you can see like the relational pattern with sexual dominance is that they'll go from relationship to relationship more or like fantasize outside the relationship more. And the last thing I'll say is the type of sort of come on, I guess that a sexual dominant prefers is this really direct, like sexy, passionate, like throw everything on the ground and throw you on the counter. Like, you know, passion's more important than anything else, which can be way too much for some of the other ones.

Steph Barron Hall: 25:39

Yeah. I'm laughing at that. I, I think it's really interesting. I have kind of gotten, I'm just curious that this has to do with the sexual instinct because, um, I've gotten feedback in the past, like, uh, that I seem flirtatious or, um, people like literally get the wrong idea about me. And like, Oh, wait, what? No, I, you know, and I, is that a common thing with like a sexual subtype?

Lyndsey: 26:13

I was going to say it can be kind of a both end because like it can be something common, the sexual instinct, but also like for me as somebody's sexual instinct to repress, sometimes I've, I've also gotten messages that I'm flirting. And part of that I think is because I'm not in touch with the sexual instinct and when I'm actually putting it out there. So you get this like both end where, and, and I think For, for like, kind of what Sam was saying, when you have the sexual instinct in the repressed position, so sort of that opposite position of her, there's a lot of overwhelm. When sexual instinct dominant people come towards you whether it is a person that is just interested in you and friendship Whether it is someone that is attracted to you There is a lot of like especially for me if I don't know you very well a lot of like I like you're trying to get too much into my boundary and sort of like wanting to push people away Um, because like I will do more of a slow build to relationship and then you can kind of come in. So very much what she was saying, that penetration of boundaries immediately can be very overwhelming for someone that has sexual instinct in the last position. But the flirting thing you're talking about, it's kind of a both end. Because it's kind of how, it is, it is how sexual instinct dominance relate, and if you relate it from somebody else that is, they may know when it's flirting or not, and then people that are sexual instinct repressed, or it's not their dominant, they can interpret that as intensity, kind of back off, like, why are you flirting with me, um, but I have also been accused of flirting with people when I was not, and I think it's because I'm not in touch with that sexual instinct, and sometimes I'm putting it out there, not even knowing that I am.

Steph Barron Hall: 27:47

You're just being nice.

Lyndsey: 27:48

I'm just being nice, yes.

Steph Barron Hall: 27:50

And suddenly somebody gave you their number.

Lyndsey: 27:53

Yeah. Siam and I were also curious too if like this happens to be more like, like, I mean, we don't know, right? But like, if it's more women than men, that gets interpreted that way.

Steph Barron Hall: 28:05

I would, I would think so though. I don't really have a great, like sample size because my husband is a social dominant. And so we approach these things very differently. He's not a flirt at all. He's pretty much like very literal about things. So he's, he's so funny. Um, what about self press?

Lyndsey: 28:27

So one of the interesting things with self prez is, is like, sex is like almost like breathing air. It's like more about a basic need. And so it's like, I'm hungry, I eat, I'm thirsty, I drink some water. If I'm cold, I get a blanket. If I'm horny, I'm going to have some sexual interaction. Right. And so for them, it's also about energy efficiency. And so a lot of times, you know, when they're looking for sexual intimacy, it's like, they may not want a whole lot of the foreplay. They might want to just get down to getting that sexual need met. Um, and I think what it is, is that sex is about, is about the sexual gratification. Um, and they're gonna be also more significantly impacted sort of by context. Like everything needs to be just right because I need to have the energy. To want to move into sexuality. One of the things I wanted to touch on that Sam said too, that I think is really essential here, even when we're talking about self preservers is, is like a lot of times there's this kind of this assumption that sexual instinct dominance have the higher libido, they have more sexual energy in these types of things. And, and as Sam said, That's not necessarily true. It's just that sexual instinct dominance will move through it more quickly where like a self preserver, for instance, might choose more self pleasure over relational pleasure if it's more efficient and it's going to meet the sexual need in the moment. And so, um, and, and for social, it kind of like, it depends. It's kind of what I say, you know, um, but it, but it is interesting. I think one of the things to keep in mind is, is that, um, Engagement in sexual activity doesn't determine desire or want for sexual activity in the ways that a lot of times our society kind of puts it on there. So self preservers oftentimes get put in the low sexual desire place, even though as a sex therapist, I would say oftentimes it's actually not a low sexual desire problem. Um, I'll let Sam kind of add some of her thoughts as well with the self preserver, but those are some of the things that I think are essential to know about self preservers.

Dr. Sam: 30:25

any instinct can have any level of sex drive, but. With self preservation people, they are aware that sex is an output of energy and we know that self preservation people are really concerned with their energy output and having enough energy. So, like Lindsay said, it's not that they don't want to have sex. Usually, if you're with partnered with a self preservation person who doesn't seem like they want to have sex a lot, they're probably stressed, busy. Tired, hungry, cold, thirsty, you know, and they're like, well, I need to have enough energy to meet those needs. So sex has to kind of come after, even if I'm really interested. It's a, a real difference in framing rather than actual drive. Another thing about self-preservation people is that they can be a little more cautious and squeamish around like body fluids, hygiene. Um. You know, showering they like, they report that like, no, I'm not getting near you unless you shower, you know, you have, you have to shower if you know, we had sex yesterday, you better shower before we do it again. That kind of thing. Um, that's coming a lot from self preservation people. And then they are maybe going to be turned off by partners who are super like needy or demanding A lot of foreplay, a lot of attention. They're going to be like, well, that's even way more energy. They'd be a little happier with the come on. That's like kind of getting right to it. And they also are really happy if you make sure their basic needs are met first. Um, you're keeping it straightforward. And I'd say this is the instinct that responds the worst to like any kind of pressure that they feel you're putting on them for sex. No one likes that, you know, but, um, especially self preservation people, you want to show them you're interested without putting any pressure on it. Cause as soon as there's pressure, they feel like that energy demand. And then it's kind of a turnoff.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:25

Oh yeah. That makes sense. I had never thought of that before. Um, I'm curious cause you both kind of mentioned any type can have a higher or lower, you know, libido. Is there a type that you find has the highest or a, um, Specific subtype?

Lyndsey: 32:43

I'll let Sam answer that because her research let us know which ones that they are.

Dr. Sam: 32:47

Yeah, I'll say a word on this. Um, so in my research on type it's fours, sevens and eights that report. The highest sex, well, my research is on desire. So the highest sexual desire overall, and my particular study was reported by four sevens and eights. So, um, we started calling that the sexual triad as kind of a joke.

Steph Barron Hall: 33:12

huh.

Dr. Sam: 33:12

Again, it's tricky because. you know, sevens and eights specifically just have higher energy than everyone anyway. So that can be contributing. Fours have this whole connection, feeling deeply seen thing. That's such a big part of the ego structure. That can be why. So it's not necessarily like they're physically like, Physiologically wanting sex more, but it could be that they're more, it's sex is more important to those type structures. We're not actually sure on the why yet. And then, like I said, sexual dominance are reporting that they have higher desire, but from all the other things we've learned, I believe, um, or, or we believe that that's because sex is more important part of the sexual dominance identity.

Steph Barron Hall: 33:57

It sounds like you're saying that it's just more of their focus of attention, kind of like with all the Dine types, we talk about focus of attention, sexual dominance, it's just more of the focus of like, they're aware of how much desire they have on a day to day basis, or, how much they're paying attention to that. Mm

Dr. Sam: 34:13

exactly. And even further, I at least teach it that the instincts are around our evolutionary survival. So for a sexual dominant, being desired, having desire, having sex, like the mating instinct is actually life or death to us. Because that's how we help the species survive. And similarly, you know, for each, so for self preservation, like gathering resources, making sure we have enough before we have pleasure is a life or death importance. And for socials, ensuring my place in the group and that I'm bonded and connected with my tribe, even if my tribe is just my family, that's life or death important, um, as sex relates to that or not.

Lyndsey: 34:58

Well, and I think it's interesting when you talk about that, Sam, too, because I think sometimes relationally, what's more important for like socials and self preservers, it may not be so much on sex. They may feel strongly loved, cared for, connected in the relationship, and all of that as well. And so for me, it's, it's, it's, It's much more essential that like emotional connection, quality time, um, which this is this, the piece that I'm saying it's about social, but it's also about being nine, um, when those needs are being met, like sex doesn't be like sex, like a bonus to me. It's not like the main focus to me. Right. Um, it's something that I enjoy. It's pleasurable, but it is definitely not life and death. Right. Um, and like for self preservers or like even for my spouse, it's like, if I have energy, I enjoy it. But like, Um, I mean, there are times, and again, I hope he doesn't listen to this, there is times he would rather read a book than have sex. I mean, this has actually happened. I was actually hoping to read this chapter tonight. What do you think about tomorrow night instead, for instance? he doesn't, that's not how he gets like the, the, the deeper connection or the closeness. To me, that's like if I, if I'm tended to and taken care of. Right. Well, for him, it's yeah. So it's just an interesting perspective, but it is life and death for sexual instinct dominance. And when they come into my office and you're paired with a self preserve or you're paired with a social, like it can be a huge, huge issue or concern, right? Because, um, you know, sometimes for the sexual dominant, I can't understand why my self preserver like wouldn't want to be more playful and play with sexual energy. Like, why wouldn't you want the kind of before pieces? Right. Um, and it can feel like they're not desire, they're not loved. And so this is where we see some of those relational problems kind of come into play too, is just the dynamics between, between the twos. And it's, and it's a frequent thing that I see in my office and it's, and, Knowing the Enneagram and knowing the dominant instincts has been huge for people to feel like they can be more seen, more generous for each, with each other and things like that as well.

Steph Barron Hall: 37:02

Yeah. Yeah. That's so helpful. I think, especially because, you know, like I mentioned in my own upbringing, the purity culture concept was so much around only men have a sex drive and women do not. And so then, and, and, you know, if you are attractive at all, men will want to just, Jump your bones basically, just like, um, and so then you become an adult and you're like in these different spaces and different people are just different. And so it doesn't fit in those like really cut and dry categories and it makes it difficult because you know, those emotions do get involved. Like, Oh, am I just not desirable or am I a not enough or those sorts of things?

Lyndsey: 37:46

Definitely.

Dr. Sam: 37:47

about the men who were raised in that culture, when we get our types, like our, like our lovely sixes, our nines, even our fours, our males of those types, they're like, why am I not like always initiating sex? That's what men are supposed to do. Like, there's something wrong with me. With like, no, every type six has a trouble initiating sex. Every type nine isn't sure if it ought to cause conflict. So they step back, you know, every four needs to feel emotionally connected. And so those, those messages are so damaging.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:19

Yeah. Yeah. They really are. I think we touched on it for the sexual subtypes or the sexual dominant instinct, but, um, are there any other things that challenges you want, want to add to, um, for self-preservation or social?

Dr. Sam: 38:33

Yeah, definitely.

Lyndsey: 38:35

I, I could talk on the social a little bit, and I'll just even talk about, you know, sort of some of the experience. Well, one is the tend to be less jealous, and sometimes jealousy, you know, alerts desire and attraction and want. Um, but one of the really interesting things, and one of the common complaints that I have gotten in many relationships, and this really has to do with, again, my particular stacking, which is social first and sexual instinct last. I think it would look a little different. Actually, I know it would look a little different if I were social sexual, but I can be so in tune to everybody. Like if we're at a social gathering or at a party, I can be so in tune to everybody else that I am not connecting to my partner or making them feel special or making them feel seen or desired sort of in that social gathering. I, I just kind of have always assumed, which was a story I used to tell myself, is like, they're fine. They know where I stand with them. They know we have a close and connected and bonded relationship. But I have had that complaint of like, you don't pay attention to me. You're not like looking me in the eyes. You're like not touching me as you walk by. And, and, and for a while I kind of thought like that might be their problem. And now I'm recognizing that that's really a me. Me and them problem. It's, it's an us problem, right? And so I think there's a tendency for social dominance, maybe not to be as in tune to the partner. Also always wanting to bring your partner on social engagements and doing things socially, where maybe they just want time just with you and they don't want to go to a social activity. And so I think that those are some places that sexuality or just desire or connection. Um, and I think too, like even with like the. Keeping the ticker of like how long we've had sex. Um, in some ways, like it's great that social dominants are willing to like serve their partners in this way. But I also think of like, you know, and especially like being like some of your more like, um, accommodating types, you know, so like your three, six and nine, which are kind of more your attachment types in the sense of like, Oh, well, I think I need to have sex to stay connected and bond. And I'm not actually seeking out sex for my own pleasure, desire, or want. Um, and being able to really tune into, like, especially for nines in particular, because nines oftentimes, um, are, well, three, six and nine in particular, often looking to their partners, um, if we look at the attachment triad to like, what do they need sexually, and a lot of the growth there is really knowing what you, yourself, um, need. Need and want, and that ability to kind of ask for some, I guess I'm kind of going instinct and I'm going type cause they're intertwined. Um, you know, oftentimes what Sam and I say is like that the instinct will set the framework and then your type comes in and kind of sets the nuance. And so, um, it's hard for me not to talk about, because like a social, social three might look different. A social six might look different. Um, but yeah, we're going to have some similar motivations. And so it's just interesting in the sense of like, what I've had to learn to do is be more attentive. to partners, um, and give them some more of that kind of like special attention. I don't really know what language you would use the sexual energy energy that they're looking for that I'm learning how to do. Um, so that would be my answer for social. What would you add for the sexual? Oh, we already talked about, what would you add anything else for sexual that you would add Sam?

Dr. Sam: 41:46

Yeah, I have something to add for all three of them actually. So for sexual, um, I had talked about some of them, but another struggle with sexual is around getting bored with sexual routine or if the sex isn't going to that deeply merged place, which it may not be if, you know, you're partnered with a different instinct, then just kind of burning out and not being interested, like getting attached to only this, like, Ego shattering version of sex, as if like other versions of sex aren't good. Um, that could be a struggle for sexuals as well. And then for self preservation, that's where we tend to see a lot of challenges around, um, desire when there's stress. So for people who've just had kids or like work stress, just busy times in life, self preservation, people are going to struggle with desire. Normally, they themselves are fine with that. They themselves are fine with the general ebb and flow of interest in sex, but oftentimes our partner, if they're not self preservation as well, isn't okay with that. So, relationally, that can be a problem for self preservation people. Um, and, like, even our higher sex drive self preservation people might prefer self pleasure, like Lindsay was saying. And then, in some cases, like, the partner can take that personally and feel like, you know, why don't you want me? And it's actually not personal to them at all, to say, meeting a physical, physiological need. So, I'd say all of that for, uh, Self preservation. Oh, and one more thing about self preservation, this kind of funny thing happens when they're first in a relationship where like that sexual instinct gets really activated during that new relationship energy or the honeymoon phase. And they'll have a lot more sex then, like they'll push through contacts to have sex a lot more. And then when that drops off, the partner can even feel bait and switched of like, we used to have sex all the time. Like where did it go? So that's, that's like a nuanced version of something that can happen for them. And one thing I wanted to add for social was, um, like Lindsay was saying, they're the least jealous, but also, if the partner does something to be like a social embarrassment, then it can be a huge problem. So even if there's like infidelity happening, like the social might be okay with it, but as soon as like people find out and it's like a humiliating, it's going to be like a disaster for them.

Steph Barron Hall: 44:19

yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. So I'm curious if you have any practical advice, um, for people who are just kind of in this discovery process with sexuality, like, um, any practices or skills that You can recommend as they explore.

Dr. Sam: 44:39

Um, yeah, that's a great question. Go ahead,

Lyndsey: 44:41

that is, I was going to say, I wanted to go back to the piece that you were talking about too, just about the sexual instinct dominant coming dominance coming to the front. That will happen for. Anybody in new relationships, despite what their actual dominant instinct is. Um, and it, and it can be ultra confusing for people after that nine months to a year and a half, if the partner's sexual instinct to repress, because they don't understand where that energy went or where it came from. And, and it was interesting because I got one of the things that Sam and I talked about is I thought this energy only lasted the first nine months to a year and a half. And Sam has informed me that you sexual instinct dominance go back to it. And I was like, Ooh, how do you do that? Um, and so that was a very interesting thing for me to learn even in particular, because I thought, well, that's just the first nine months to a year and a half when you're in a relationship. And then that doesn't exist anymore. Right guys. And she's like, no. It does for sexual instinct dominance. And I'm like, well, I want some of that. How do I get that back? Um, and I think like even talking about like some of the things that you can, you can do to kind of work on this in self discovery. Like I'll even just talk about, um, some of the things you can do when you are sexual instinct repressed. Um, there were some really interesting things and this has actually come from colleagues. One is when you're sexually instinct repressed, just for people that are partnered with them, they don't know what you're talking about when you're sexual instinct dominant. Like we don't have a clue. And one of the really interesting things is I am starting to really understand and I'm starting to do work myself to tap more into that. But because self preservation and social have really good definitions to them, it's easy for us, it's easier for us to understand if that's in the repressed position versus when sexual instinct is in the repressed position. And so there can be this very confusing conversation that can happen between sexual instinct dominance and sexual instinct repressed because we don't know what you're talking about. We don't get what you mean by playing with sexual energy. Like, what is that? How do you do that? Um, but one of the things that has been helpful for me, and actually this has been, um, through our little group and things that people have suggested for me, one was changing the color of clothing that I wear. So, for instance, you see that I'm wearing kind of more of a brighter, uh, more vibrant color because wearing more vibrant colors, it's really interesting. Most of my wardrobe up until the last couple of years has been very neutral and monotone. And a lot of sexual instinct repressed people do wear more monotone clothing and stepping into color and feeling like what it feels like to be in your body is a way to kind of activate sexual instinct energy. Um, and also, um, dancing or movements, um, as well are really good ways to sort of, First, kind of step into that. If that's something that you're not as comfortable with, there are deeper places to go with. Those are two really easy ones. Just sort of like if you're in that self discovery process and you're someone that does have sexual instinct in the repressed position, um, you know, how can you, how can you kind of tap into and experience a little bit more, um, of that energy?

Steph Barron Hall: 47:42

Those are so helpful. Um, anything that you would add Sam for, for a sexual, um,

Dr. Sam: 47:48

definitely. So for sexual, um, instinct dominant people, I think it's really important to learn how to play with sexual energy within boundaries, because what I see is people either. way too much or they're suppressing it. So, you know, either they're totally boundary lists and they're like sexual energy everywhere. Or they're like, I'm bad for feeling this way and being this way. And they're suppressing it. And then it's like coming out. But actually like you can just learn to live with it and enjoy it. Meeting that if you have a sexual connection with someone you meet, it's like, that's okay, enjoy it, like kind of maybe flirt if that's okay within the boundaries of like a committed relationship that you're in, you know, flirt, enjoy it, like, feel it and know that you don't have to then go like, leave your monogamous committed relationship, like chase that person because if you were to do that, you know, that Energy would wear off with them anyway, after a while. So, um, whenever I work with people with this instinct, it's sort of developing this as a skill. And again, working within the boundaries of any, you know, any committed relationship you are in, and the boundaries of your own integrity. Like, just learn to let this energy move through you and not judge it. I think that's important. The practice, I would say, for our sexual dominant.

Steph Barron Hall: 49:11

Yeah. That's so helpful. Um, that never would have occurred to me, but I could see how that would be useful. kind of creating that safe structure, like the container. What about for self press anything that they can do?

Dr. Sam: 49:24

For self prez, I think, like, practicing self care as a way of getting in the mood for sex. So I know self care is like, The answer to everything, but for self preservation dominance, you want to, like, they want to be making sure their basic needs are met as a way of honoring their relationship and, and the sexual intimacy of their relationship, not just for themselves. And they can involve the partner in that, like, if, you know, they want to have sex, it's like, okay, like, help me get cozy. Let's maybe clean the house first. Like, I need to feel safe. And. It's not just about them. It's about serving the relationship as well. So self care is like extra, extra important for these folks.

Steph Barron Hall: 50:13

Yeah. I love that idea of like helping me get cozy or something like that. That sounds nice.

Lyndsey: 50:19

I was going to say, like, I find, well, for everybody, but in particular for self preservers, like making the bedroom the, like, sanctuary. And so, like, even the rest of your house isn't exactly how you want it. Like, being very intentional about, like, picking the cozy, comfortable blankets that you like, how they feel on your body, right? Having the kind of lighting that is more inducive to sexual energy. Like, when they exercise, like, you All of my clients, but I think this is a really good one for self preservers, um, is like paying attention to like your five senses and how sexual energy is either turned on or turned off. Um, and because self preservers are so much more influenced by this, it's, but it's going to be good for them to pay attention to it. So like foods you eat, like she's saying, like. Don't eat the foods that are going to give you, like, make you feel bloated and like, ugh, right? Like eat the, eat the foods that you know are going to be more conducive to sexual energy, right? Like maybe even it's putting on music that brings up nostalgia in the bedroom when you're going to be sexual. So it is kind of more of almost setting the scene and setting the environment to be more conducive to like relational sex. Um, right in the things like that as well. And so I think just, and anybody can benefit from that exercise, right? Really paying attention and it just brings you into more presence in your body. And like, what are we doing day in and day out that either turns off, turns on sexual energy or turns off sexual energy, sexual instinct dominance are gonna be well, well aware, um, your socials and self preservers probably need to understand a little bit more of the things that they're doing day to day that are either turning it on or turning it off. But that's also a great way to get into that.

Steph Barron Hall: 51:50

Yeah. And I think that's an, that's an important point as well because I think that this conversation, it, it, might sound to listeners like, Oh, well, it must be nice to be like that, you know, the sexual dominant instinct. Um, it's, I think it's important to point out that within our instincts, we all have these different spheres that come a little bit more naturally and we're a little bit more tuned into. So it's not as if there's some, something better about one instinct or another, we're just different in the way that we're kind of paying attention, like our lenses on the world. Um, so I think that's a really important thing that I'm just. Kind of considering what my listener might be thinking right now. Um, okay. Final random question. I'm just curious if you have any tips for people who have a really hard time bringing this conversation up with their partner.

Lyndsey: 52:43

So the interesting thing is, I think you'd ask about like a book to bring up, you know, that we, that influenced us. It's actually, honestly, one of the things that I do in my practice, and I'll talk about what the book is, is, is that it is really hard to talk about sexuality. So I've been in my therapy practice, like I told you, 12 years. In that 12 years, only two people, two people have come in with healthy sexual messaging and sexuality. Most of us have grown up in like similar to like purity culture, more conservative religious backgrounds, or we grew up in a culture where it's like, it's, it's not okay to talk about, it's something that's secret, it's something that we keep kind of behind closed doors. And so most of us do not have the language or the capacity or the ability to even know how to start these conversations. And so one of, yeah, and it, and it's so, and it's so hard, um, in that sense. And. What I do is every client that comes into my office gets a sexuality book together that actually creates the platform to have the conversation. Um, and I can share, I know you'd ask us like, what's your book? That's influenced you. Um, I can share what that book is later, just to give you an idea, but it's like having a book as your platform to have the conversation can be a great place to start because then it's like, I'm not just bringing this up to you. Hey, let's read this book together. And in the, in the book, it asks us some questions like, who are you? And it just, it just kind of neutralizes it a little bit. It makes it feel safer for people to actually have that conversation because now it's not, I'm not bringing up something that I'm afraid you're going to like or not like or be uncomfortable with. It's a, it was something that was suggested in the book for us to have conversation with, and it kind of just, it kind of just makes it easier and safer for people to do so.

Steph Barron Hall: 54:20

Yeah. Just opening like the, the curiosity around it. That makes sense. Okay. Well, before we jump into those questions, which I'm excited to hear what this book is going to be, um, where can people find you?

Dr. Sam: 54:32

Okay, well, um, the best place is probably on Instagram at enneagasm, E N N E A underscore G A S M. Um, that's where I do the, you know, post the most, but also my website, enneagramsexpert. com. And on Instagram, Lindsay and I do a monthly series called sexy first Friday on the first Friday of every month we do as an Instagram live with different topics and subtopics of the Enneagram and sex.

Steph Barron Hall: 55:05

Perfect. That's so fun. Okay. What about you, Lindsay?

Lyndsey: 55:10

Um, the best place to find me probably also is Instagram, and it's just lindsayfrasierlmft on Instagram. Otherwise, my website is just lindsayfrasier. com. Um, but I do put quite a bit of content, um, up on Instagram as well around sexuality, Enneagram, and just relationships. And yes, Sexy, we have Sexy First Fridays. Um, and for people that don't go on Instagram, we do also post all of those on a YouTube channel. Um, which I think is Relationships, I can maybe let you know what that is later, Stephanie, for people to look at. Because I think it's Enneagram Relationships and Sexuality, I think is what it's called. But I can definitely give you what the exact name of that YouTube channel is too. Because I have, I have some, um, I have some friends that are not really on social media, but they really wanted to see those sexy first Fridays. And so we've also put them on a YouTube channel so people can watch them there if they don't want to be on social media. Um,

Steph Barron Hall: 56:02

show notes because I know that people will be excited to check those out. Um, okay. So finally, last two questions. Tell me about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year. And let's start with Lindsay, because I know you already teased what your book might be.

Lyndsey: 56:18

well, this book came out in 2022 and it's called hot and unbothered how to talk about the sex. I'll talk about about the sex you really want to have. Um, and what I love about her book in particular is she is a marriage and family therapist as well as a. I don't know if she's a certified sex therapist, but it is a great book because after each chapter, she has questions that people can actually talk about, um, that really sparked the conversation around sexuality. Um, I used to give the joy of sex or good vibrations as the books to do, but like the joy of sex has really weird and awkward wording. Um, it's also your 19, I think it was like 1960, the first one came out in the sixties or something like that. We've had tons and tons of revised editions. But what I, what I like about. That book in particular is that she just does such a great job of having little like, um, at the end of each chapter questions that you and your partner can ask together and that they really spark conversation around sexuality and make it more, more safe to have. And so I, that has, so having been a sex therapist for over 12 years and really wanting a good sex book, this one is great for generalized sexuality and having the conversation start.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:24

Okay. I love it. I'm excited to put that on my list. Sam, what about you? Sure.

Dr. Sam: 57:29

Um, the book I'd like recommend for people to read is come as you are by Emily Nagoski. That's, and that's really helpful also for couples to read, although it's not as much of like a workbook, but it. It kind of like exposes a bunch of sexuality myths as myths, and it can be, it can be really supportive. Um, I read that more than a year ago, but I had a baby recently, so I'm not doing a lot of reading right now.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:54

Yeah. Oh, wow. Um, yeah, I can only imagine. Um, yeah, I was, I was curious to ask you both about your perspective on that book because it's one that I've heard so much about. And then I was like, you know what, maybe I'll ask that off air if it doesn't come up, but I'm, I'm glad to hear that. I'm excited to, to read that one as well. Um, okay. Final question. What is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you? Let's go with Sam.

Dr. Sam: 58:19

Okay, so the piece of advice that Stuck with me that I use and is also relevant to sexuality is action brings clarity. It was a type three many years ago who gave me that advice. Um, I don't know who said it originally, but as a five, like I'm, I get second contemplation and not doing, and so the idea that you do, you move and then it makes. clear what your next step is. It was really foreign to me, so it's been really personally helpful. But also, it's really useful for sexuality, I think, especially when we talk about the types that have lower sexual assertiveness, which is another thing that I measured, um, in my study, and I found that nines and sixes specifically have lower sexual assertiveness. For those, like, for those folks. There's a lot of waiting to initiate sex, like does the partner want it? Oh, and for threes too, or not. And action brings clarity. It's just like, you're, you're going to have to make a move before, you know, if your partner's interested or not, you can't always wait for them. So even though it's scary, you know, to initiate sex, I feel like action brings clarity is like important advice for sexuality. Also,

Steph Barron Hall: 59:37

I love that advice and I literally said that to a five not about sex But about just life in general like take the mental model and put it into the real world I told that to a five this morning. I

Dr. Sam: 59:52

that's why fives need threes.

Steph Barron Hall: 59:57

Guess so, um, okay Lindsay, what about you? What is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Lyndsey: 1:00:02

I think the piece of advice that really stuck with me is that all sexuality is healthy and normal as long as it's consensual. Um, I think like I shared, and even just like you mentioned, right, like there isn't a better way or, or a worse way to have sexuality or what sexual sex looks in your life. It looks like in your life. And I think for a long time, I thought maybe there was something wrong with me because I didn't approach it from that sexual instinct dominant lens as well. And really it's looking at. What is, what is the good enough sex for your relationship? And for some people that sex once a year. And for some people that sucks several times a week. And I think, and it can look many different ways all the way in between there. And I think just recognizing and realizing that all of the things that we desire, want from kinky to vanilla and anything in between is all healthy and normal. As long as it's consensual. Um, that's been huge for me. I think it's huge for clients. I think our society kind of tells us what are the right and wrong ways or religion or school or families. Um, and that gives people sort of that permission to step back and be like, This is, this is healthy and this is normal. It's okay that I like the things that I like or don't like the things that I don't like.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:01:12

I love that. I think that is perfect and really helpful for a lot of folks like myself, um, you know, who grew up in some of these more restrictive environments, but also just everyone. I think a lot of us need to hear that. So I really appreciate that. And I'm so grateful you've both joined me today. I think this will be a really helpful conversation for people who are just kind of exploring this, or maybe they've been trying to figure it out, like what the heck is wrong with me for a long time. And I think it'll be really validating to hear, Oh, nothing's wrong with you. We just have these different lenses and we need to understand them. Um, so I really appreciate your time and thanks so much. Of

Dr. Sam: 1:01:50

Thank you for having

Lyndsey: 1:01:51

having us.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:01:52

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify