1:54

Welcome to Enneagram in real life. The podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host, Stephanie Barron hall. And on today's episode, I'm talking all about careers and more specifically aptitude testing. So this was a really fun episode, both to record and to prep for, because I actually got to do all of the aptitude tests that, our guests today talk about, before I actually interviewed them. So, if you're listening on your podcast app, this is a great one. If you want to see the dashboard portion. Of the episode, you can watch it on YouTube. I'll put the link in the show notes. Because we kind of took a tour of the backside of the dashboard. So you're seeing all of the different things that I'm really good at, or the things I'm really bad at. and we talk about the different types of careers that I was interested in and then the different careers that my aptitudes. Suggested for me. So that was a really fascinating aspect of this episode. But one of the things I loved about this conversation was so many people always ask me, You know, what's the best. Career for your Enneagram type. And I always kind of say, I mean, your Enneagram type can tell you some information, but it doesn't really tell you what type of career you'd be good at. So instead of looking to your Enneagram type, I think this is a better way to find and create a career that is really. A great fit for you. So on today's episode, I'm interviewing betsy wills and Alex Ellison, co authors of your hidden genius. Which is a brand new book that's out today. So go and get it because you also, when you purchase the book, you get all of the aptitude testing for free included in the book purchase. And in this conversation, we're really focusing on. The role of aptitude testing and career exploration and personal growth. Betsy and Alex both share insights into how understanding aptitudes can guide us to find career satisfaction. Overcome burnout and navigate workplace dynamics. So Betsy and Alex will explain some of the science behind aptitudes, the practical tools available in their book and how these assessments compliment personality frameworks, like the Enneagram. So we wanted to highlight actionable steps to foster career wellness and equity in professional settings. Betsy Wells' co-founder of you science and a pioneer and aptitude awareness and expert career coach Alex Ellison. He joined forces to write an essential life and career guide called your hidden genius. The science backed strategies to uncovering and harnessing urinate talents. Their research provides a custom-made roadmap to what makes you special revealing your distinct combination of natural talents, interests and personality traits, connect with Betsy and Alex on their website, your hidden genius.com and make sure you grab their book, um, which is also called your hidden genius. I will link it in the show notes because I just want to make sure you get the right one. There are a few that have similar titles. And we're going to talk about some tools for assault discovery, um, what to do if your aptitudes aren't really. A good fit for your career right now, but how you can kind of pivot without changing your job entirely. Um, and some other aspects of this, I have told so many people about the whole process of aptitude testing, because I really loved what it showed me. And it kind of enlightened me in a, in a different way about my own set of skills and what I bring to the table. And it showed me how my own life and career path and trajectory has been impacted by some of the inherent bias that we're all taught. And so, especially. Certain groups of people like women for example, are often told, oh, you're bad at math. Or a women aren't as good at math. And so, We found that I actually have an aptitude for stem fields in general. So that was a really interesting thing to discover and to talk about with these two experts that I have on today. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Betsy wills and Alex Ellison.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 5:42

Well, Alex and Betsy, welcome to the podcast.

Betsy Wills: 5:45

Thank

Alex Ellison: 5:45

for having us, Stephanie.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 5:47

I'm so excited to chat with you today because I get this question all the time. What job, what career should I do for my Enneagram type? And the answer I like to give is Like anything, right? It's not really related. Um, I think there are certain things that we can know about ourselves and ways that we can understand environments in which we might thrive based on our type, but it doesn't actually tell us the stuff that we need to know when we're choosing that. So I'm excited to chat with you two today about your new book, Your Hidden Genius. Um, and we're going to be talking about aptitude tests and all these sorts of things, which we will define. But before we get into that, I'd love to hear a little bit about each of your backgrounds and how you ended up where you are now. So let's start with Betsy.

Betsy Wills: 6:34

Okay. Well, thank you. Well, I'm First and foremost, a mother of two adult Children. But, uh, my career started basically in fundraising for Vanderbilt University. And then I had a hiatus, which was very fortunate. I was able to stay home with my Children for maybe eight years, and I did every kind of volunteer job there was to do. Really enjoyed it. But at one point I woke up and I realized I'm gonna be 100. My We had literally four great grandmothers at the time, and all of them were 90 to 100 years old. And so I was like, well, my biology says I better get with it. I was only 32. So I, uh, Actually, the whole genesis of this is I went to Johnson O'Connor that does aptitude testing and I spent two days and about a thousand dollars getting myself tested like a lab rat, literally, on every aspect of every aptitude. But it really changed my life. In so many ways, ended up going back to graduate school at Vanderbilt and getting a master's in human resource development, and then wound my way into investor relations for, uh, financial companies. And I've really been doing that ever since. I still do. Um, I've worked in marketing and branding, but along the way I was with a very visionary person and we were wrestling with, with, uh, You know, how to help students, um, make better decisions and I suggested this aptitude test, but it was really unaffordable. And so, um, long story short, um, we ended up bringing that assessment into an online environment and now it's in 25 percent of all U. S. high schools and about 600 universities. And the book, which Alex and I will talk a lot about, is really for more adults to have access to this assessment. So it's included in the book, and that's how we got here today.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 8:26

Great. I, that's so interesting that you're kind of your own experience with wanting to experiment with what's next for me, you know, coming back into the workforce after having kiddos. Um, and then you're like, wow, this is really cool. So I love that you brought that experience into it.

Betsy Wills: 8:41

Thank you. It's been a journey.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 8:44

I'm sure. So Alex, I've, I've heard that you talk a little bit more about career wellness. So tell me a little bit more about that and your experience.

Alex Ellison: 8:53

Yeah. Thank you. Stephanie. So, I, um, have been running uh, an education and career counseling practice since 2013. And from the very beginning, I knew I needed something objective to kick off the counseling process with my clients. You know, I saw a lot of people coming in saying things like, you know, my parents said I should consider this, or my colleagues that I should consider this, or my teachers told me this, you know, that I should consider this path and there was no real objective tool to, to, to sort of jumpstart the guidance. And so I searched high and low for an assessment that I wanted to use in my practice and I landed on you science and. I was just like, this is, this is exactly this, this covers the three legs to the stool and we'll talk more about this, but it wasn't just an interest survey. It wasn't, um, only a personality assessment, although there's that's included. It also brought in this third really important link to the stool, which is aptitudes. Um, and so, and I've always been a fan of Enneagram and Myers Briggs. I love anything that will help me get clearer about who I am and what I can do in the world. Um, and so I think all of the tools are really like these layers, right? So they all work together. Um, and so. So that's how I started using it. And so I've since then given you science to hundreds of clients. Um, and I'm an Enneagram seven. And so during COVID, I was feeling incredibly restless, like a lot of Enneagram sevens, I think we're feeling. And Betsy and I had been connecting back and forth over the years. And I just was like, I'm feeling so restless. Like what can we do? You know, and she'd been working on a book idea and we started collaborating on it in 2020. And so this is a really exciting adventure and journey. It's been an exciting adventure and journey, um, for, for both of us, but definitely for me. And, um, so that's, that's how I kind of came into this. And, um, and why I'm so excited about this work.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 10:47

Yeah. I love that you're also bringing, you know, your experiences and that restlessness, right? Sometimes that inspires us to do something because we can't handle it anymore. Um, and I'm, I'm sure that also depends on a lot of other factors, personality and other things we'll discuss today, but we've been throwing around this word aptitude. So what exactly is aptitude? Does that mean and what exactly are we assessing with with these assessments?

Betsy Wills: 11:12

Well, so aptitudes are, again, another layer. But it's, they're quite different than your strengths. They're quite different than your interests. They're definitely different than your personality. Think of them as your hard wiring. the innate abilities that you're born with. I always describe them as the seeds of your skills, not the skills themselves. So we're all born with, you know, Different varieties are different pack of seeds, if you will, and it's what you when you add nurturing of learning and practice to something, the things that are your, your aptitudes that are kind of your driving aptitudes are going to get stronger and stronger, faster and faster. So it's kind of think about it is your learning rate. So some examples of aptitudes would be a spatial ability, for instance. Um, some people just, you know, Think in 3D. Other people don't. That's perfectly fine. They're neither good or bad, but they are really helpful when you're trying to pick direction with a career to know whether you're driven that way or another. Um, but there's actually over 52 aptitudes that can be assessed, and most people just don't realize this. So, different than IQ, which is, um, a combination of cognitive abilities, Um, aptitudes include those, but they also include things like physical abilities. Um, some people are really good at working with, you know, small tools, other people with their fingers. Um, some people can recognize all the different shades of cream, like cloud white or snow white. They can see all those differences in white. It's just an aptitude. That's called hue discrimination. Another one that's not that important, but is an aptitude, is glare factor. Certain people are super bothered by glare, other people not so much. This matters if you're going to be a truck driver or, uh, fly an airplane. But it doesn't apply to most, um, jobs. So it's not one that we actually assess. There are musical aptitudes. There's three separate musical aptitudes. Um, some people have great tonal memory, rhythm memory. And pitch discrimination. All three, though, would be necessary if you really want to pursue a career in music. So, uh, aptitudes are just like this whole range of things that school doesn't really, um, appreciate all that much and may ignore. And it's, it's been a big problem for a lot of people because some of them, we get measured on a very narrow range of aptitudes. And some of us are given the message early on that, you know, You know, we don't have things that are valuable, but the opposite is true. So that's the wonder and the beauty of bringing these things out in people.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 13:54

Yeah, that's so interesting that there are Like these set aptitudes because that was one of the questions that I had as I was doing the assessment was thinking How did you choose? which ones to test and then which ones to write about so I Understand this is a collaboration with you science in a sense, but tell me a little bit more about you know You Which one came first? Like, did you decide which ones to choose or how did that work?

Betsy Wills: 14:21

well, so Q science is the company I co founded in 2010. So that's how we have access to give the reader a free code to take the assessment. Um, but when you science started, We, um, looked at all of the different 52 aptitudes and we actually worked with the U. S. government who keeps a database of every job that's ever been and every aptitude that attaches to each job. So think of it like this Rosetta Stone of information. And it's been sitting there, useless to people because if you don't know what their aptitudes are, you really can't work that matching, um, So that's what you science has really done is we've taken the assessment and then we take the results and then we've mapped them to all these different So what we did when we were selecting which ones to assess is we tried to think of, okay, this test could take three days if we tested everybody's aptitude in every little way, but we chose really the 14 major ones that will help the most people make those decisions. But I will say that after you take the youth science assessment, if you're curious about your musical aptitude or your hue discrimination, There are places and ways you can get those assessed, and we include sort of information about those in the book.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 15:47

Yeah. Okay. That's so fascinating. So, um, it's not just about what you might be good at, but also how does this concept of career wellness kind of weave into the aptitude assessment?

Alex Ellison: 16:01

we, we felt like, you know, originally we, we sort of saw this as, um, a through line and we still do. I mean, so we, we see this as like, you know, something like a golden thread that you can cling to and return to throughout your life. So, because aptitudes are stable, starting at about the age of 17, um, you can. Assess them, harness them, and then remind yourself about them throughout your career. So rather than seeing career navigation as like a one and done thing that you do in your early twenties, that's just not the reality anymore. The world is changing so fast. Technology is evolving so quickly and also just our lives are not, are not fixed. We might move, we might get married, we might have children. And so we're always going to be at these like inflection points. And so we, we wanted to highlight in this, in this book. People who've been at those pivot points and how they can use a better compass to re evaluate their careers time and time again, rather than just shooting in the dark. Every time you have to make an adjustment or make a shift, you can return back to your aptitudes as this compass and use those to make smarter decisions. Um, and so, yeah, and, and to just like we care about our, our mental health and our physical health, uh, we, I think we should equally care about your career health. So that's where that term comes from.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 17:21

Well, we spend so much of our lives at work, so we might as well make it something that we're going to enjoy.

Alex Ellison: 17:27

Yeah, and right, right or wrong, there's been a lot of debate about this, but, you know, we do go, we, we turn to our jobs for a lot of our personal fulfillment and, um, and, and so that's why this is such an important, uh, time to be having this conversation

Betsy Wills: 17:41

Yeah, and not only that, what is, uh, an added aspect in the book is that aptitudes also relate a great deal to your avocations. And most people get into a career or job, and they may at any time sort of feel this nagging sense of maybe this isn't the right thing for me, or maybe I should quit. It's, but. And so they put their job on the witness stand. You're the problem, you know, and we're like, please don't do that. First, let's consider because. A lot of our sense of, uh, boredom, restlessness or exhaustion is due to an unmet aptitude or an aptitude that's being overtaxed. And so just like your health and career wellness is about understanding that balance and where you can give outlets to these aptitudes that may or may not be met at work and may or may not ever be met at work. And that's perfectly okay. It's our full life that matters.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 18:40

And you also talk about in the book about how these bleed over into our personal relationships. And Betsy, you shared a funny story about, um, a date planning situation.

Betsy Wills: 18:51

Oh, yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 18:52

Do you want to share a bit about that?

Betsy Wills: 18:54

Well, My husband and I have a different, uh, Set of aptitudes. Uh, we compliment each other in many ways. And one of his aptitudes is he's extremely focused on his calendar. He uses that calendar, drives that calendar. I mean, if I called him on the way home and said, I'm going to stop by Whole Foods, he's going to send me a calendar invite for that. Within an hour. Like, I mean, he's tracking me. No, but, uh, so what happened was I'm not so good at that and I need to be using a calendar a a lot more. But, uh, he sent me a calendar invite for some date. You know, we were gonna have people for dinner and then the date changed somehow and I didn't put it on the calendar. And so we made an entire meal and we're sitting there. Having a glass of wine waiting for the guests to come and an hour went by and it turned out that I should have been using the calendar, so

Stephanie Barron Hall: 19:48

That's the wrong date.

Betsy Wills: 19:50

Total wrong date, so we we had a rehearsal for our dinner party

Stephanie Barron Hall: 19:54

Yes, I, I think that's so funny because it's just comical how some of our different ways of being in the world show up in those relationships and they can be really humorous. Um, in that same chapter, I actually highlighted because I was like, I'm going to send this to my husband, be like, see, look where it says, um, that. Sequential thinkers normally have like a messy desk, but everything they need is in their mental filing cabinet. So they've got, you know, their sticky notes, they know where they are and everything like that.

Betsy Wills: 20:23

That's right. Yeah, it's funny

Stephanie Barron Hall: 20:25

was like, I, I have proof that I'm just, I'm just

Betsy Wills: 20:28

Well, I can I can tell you, since we're talking about personal relationships, another kind of funny story. Um, my husband also has perfect pitch, pitch discrimination. And most people, like I said, think of pitch as musical. And he doesn't have perfect rhythm or tone. He just has perfect pitch. And pitch relates to your ability to see really fine differences in things. So, um, You know, this doesn't taste right, that's crooked, that, that sound is off, of course, this itches. There are people who, they just really focus in on what's off, because that's all they see. And, I am a 98 percenter. So, at night, you know, I'll, my house is spotless, it really is, but at night I'll leave that glass of wine that I'm finished with beside the sink and think, I'll get that in the morning. And he would come in, and he would just go. Why is the house so dirty? Staring at the glass of wine and I'd be like, Oh my gosh, I just want to strangle you, you know, on so many arguments because I always felt like he was picking on me for that one thing. I could never do enough. But when we found this out about him, It made total sense. And fortunately, he's in a job that takes full advantage of that. He's a high end restoration contractor and man, can he do a punch list? I'm telling you, he's excellent at that. And so it really changed our conversation with one another about, you know, you weren't really picking on me. You were just letting your aptitude go wild. Uh, you do need to manage that, but it was super helpful because we just aren't, we talk about it in a different way. All

Stephanie Barron Hall: 22:07

it, which is so useful.

Alex Ellison: 22:09

and you start to see these opposing factors as assets rather than deficits, which is what I love about this as well. It's all about, like, is it in the right context or what context is it being used in? And, and that. Determines whether it's an asset or a challenge. The best way to test this at home. Those stuff is how you and your partner load the dishwasher. Now, you and your your spatial, your partner might also be spatial, but that's a wonderful test in our household. We see that all the time, so.

Betsy Wills: 22:35

Or pack for a vacation.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 22:37

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is funny. I was doing the different, um, kind of brain games and things, exercises. So, uh, a couple of them, I was like, Oh, like I told my husband, I was like, Oh, you'd be really good at this. Like, like, especially the ones that I was like, Oh, I'm terrible. Um, but okay. I'd love to really dive in and kind of. Get an inside look at what this looks like. So we can use mine as an example. Um, but could you explain just briefly, you know, maybe one or two of the exercises and, and what they are? Because people might assume like, Oh, it's a survey, but what are these really?

Alex Ellison: 23:16

Yeah, I mean, so one of them, for example, we don't want to give too much away because we want, obviously, users to have the full experience that you had. Um, but one of the, uh, uh, uh, uh, exercises, uh, was, uh, looking for inductive reasoning. And so you scored as a diagnostic problem solver. Um, so this is basically telling us that you're quite comfortable making decisions under pressure. You're able to connect to people. The dots get down to the essence of something. Fill in the missing pieces and feel confident making a decision. Even when you don't have all the facts in front of you, um, the person who's the opposite of you would be called a fact checker. And these are people who are meticulous at gathering information and they want all the information they're going to say, I need to sleep on it before I get back to you. So the brain game or the exercise for this is a series of. Pictures and you're tasked with finding some kind of commonality between a few of the pictures in a sequence. So basically being able to find connections between disparate ideas or concepts is what's being looked at. And so there's a bunch of these little assessments that you can't really game. You don't know what's being teased out of that. So yeah, Betsy, what

Stephanie Barron Hall: 24:21

And you don't know what the right answer is, though. I, I, when I was doing that one, I was like, Oh, I feel like I'm playing connections, like the New York times game, which is one of my favorite games. So

Alex Ellison: 24:31

actually, that's a really, I had a client who said the exact same thing, actually, Stephanie, that they love those games, the New York Times connections. Absolutely. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 24:41

Okay. Let's dive in.

Alex Ellison: 24:43

so I will go ahead and share my screen all right. So, um, basically, I, you know, there's so much information here. So, you, when you go back to your dashboard, you can see how your, uh, what your aptitude results were your personality results and then also your interest survey results. So, those are the sort of, like I said earlier, the 3 legs to the stool. Um. You can learn how this is going to be helpful in your daily life. Each of these results. Um, and also where you might run into some challenges. So, like, Betsy said, all of these need to be managed. And so it's good to know, um, your strengths, but also maybe some, some shadow spots with each of these. Um, so there's a lot you can dive into. But what I really want to show you is, um, something that we. We talk about a lot in the book is, um, kind of the inherent bias that, uh, has been, uh, kind of going on for so long in career guidance. Um, especially because so often we just give people self reported surveys to determine what careers they should be exploring. And so, in a self reported interest survey, Stephanie, you would get these career recommendations, right? So these are the careers that would come up just based on what you said. Look really fun. Now, this might be fairly accurate because you have maybe some work experience. You've had some exposure, but to someone who's maybe 17, um, I would question how reliable their self reported interests are because they maybe haven't had a ton of exposure yet. Maybe they're just going off of what their parents do or. What someone on a bus told them they should do. I mean, literally, this is what people this is how people make many career decisions. And so just looking at someone's self reported interests based on limited exposure can be a real mistake and can really misguide a lot of people. However,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 26:35

I may just jump in

Alex Ellison: 26:37

Yes,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 26:37

So thinking back to when I was 17, I, I was like, I'm bad at math.

Alex Ellison: 26:43

Mm. So common. Mm-hmm

Stephanie Barron Hall: 26:45

So, and actually, objectively, I can look at all of my testing scores and all those things that I'm objectively not bad at math. But that was what I thought about myself. That's the assumption that I made. So.

Alex Ellison: 26:58

That's the bias.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 27:00

you know, these interests here are things that I naturally would have gravitated, gravitated toward. In fact, I studied psychology in undergrad because I was like, well, I'm bad at math, so I'm not going to do that. Right. Um, and so it was so funny to me to get numerical detective as my like moniker, um, but it actually fits because I have had a job in the past that was, um, in data analysis and that portion of the job I really loved. So

Betsy Wills: 27:32

but it's, it's, it's not that your interest suggestions aren't maybe also a fit, but it's what else are you leaving on the table? And what did you leave on the table at a pretty critical point? So, we're going to talk about how you can make sure that you're scratching these itches that you have that are true aptitudes as well, um, without quitting your job, but, or adding something on.

Alex Ellison: 27:57

And, and, and what you experienced, Stephanie has actually been heavily researched and there's, there's some incredible studies out there that show us that especially young women are, um, are sort of hurting themselves in their career navigation because, and career management, because they're making early decisions based on interests alone. And those interests are. Often based on what they see in society, what's been reinforced in their upbringing or at school. Um, and they're, they're leaving aptitudes on the table. Um, and so they're going into careers that are not full fits for them. And, and really missing out on some, um, on some wonderful opportunities in their careers. And so that's, uh, that's exactly, you know, and you're not alone. I've had a lot of clients who said, oh, no, I'm terrible at math. I'm terrible at math. And then they score as numerical detectives, which, by the way, is an assessment looking at numerical applied numerical reasoning. Right? So that's different than just, you know, doing fractions and so sometimes students actually, uh, it sounds like you did well in, in math in school, but sometimes, you know, Students don't do well in their math classes, and they really think this is proof that I should not go into a numerical career. And that's often not the case at all. And so, if I go back here and show you now your aptitude matches, right? Your careers that match your aptitudes, your innate talents, we see a very different arrangement. I'm seeing engineering, I'm seeing architecture, um, life science, animal science, um, Physics professor. And, you know, whenever you see something like a science professor, a mathematics professor, that's saying, yes, you have an aptitude for these STEM fields. And you are someone who's going to be great at explaining. Uh, I think you scored as a liaison explaining and getting, uh, concepts that are complex and getting other people excited about those things. Because you're good at bridging information. So that's,

Betsy Wills: 30:01

a podcast host.

Alex Ellison: 30:02

that's right.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 30:04

it is, you know, I do love podcasting. It's really fun.

Alex Ellison: 30:07

You're, you're basically the professor of podcasting. Yeah,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 30:10

There we go.

Betsy Wills: 30:12

well, and what's, I'll just tag on to this that these, you know, we always tell our clients don't take this literally, look at the pattern. So this is just saying work in a technical field of some sort or working with data, working with information, explaining information would all be great fits for you and where you'd find a lot of satisfaction. But why don't you open one up just so we can show you the depth.

Alex Ellison: 30:37

Yeah. Let's, which one would you like to look at Stephanie? Pick, pick your card. Let's

Stephanie Barron Hall: 30:41

Let's look at,

Betsy Wills: 30:43

they're not in any, you know, ranking order. They're just a group together as good fits.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 30:48

okay, great. Um, how about engineering professor? I

Alex Ellison: 30:53

see. Where did I see that one? Oh, thank you. Okay. Perfect. All right, so what you see here is a ton of information. As Betsy said, this pulls from the Bureau of Labor Statistics website, Onet, which is this massive database of career information. Um, what's really fun though is. If you're like, I don't know what an engineering professor does, or that doesn't sound interesting to me. You can click right here and it pulls up a box of other. I know this is really tiny right here. A box of, uh, other names that are or other career titles that are similar. So that you can expand your search, right? Um, you see career salary information. Day in the life. What are these people do every day? What are your core tasks? And then you see this, um, these wonderful visual diagrams that show you how your aptitudes best match the career or how they're a fit for the career. So your aptitudes are represented by those purple dots and the careers aptitudes are represented by the white dots. And so this is showing you this is a really nice. Um, match, because you have a lot of overlap there. Um, and it's actually a decent interest fit also, right? So we talked about separating out interests and aptitudes, but it just so happens that this does actually align with some of your, um, self reported interests as well. And then you can see some of the related careers and things. Yeah, go ahead.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 32:12

thought that portion right there was so interesting because I was clicking through various ones and I was just thinking, wow, like, this seems like a really great fit for me, or this would be really cool. Um, and it is actually something I've been considering, um, just because, um, I really like a lot of the information that I get to deal with on a day to day basis, but I'm really excited about new information. And so I've been thinking, should I go back to school again? Or should I, you know, uncover something different? And, um, so it was really interesting to be like, Oh, like this kind of is adjacent to some of the things I've been considering. And then not this one in particular, but I was looking at like genetic counselor or um,

Alex Ellison: 32:54

Totally.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 32:55

you know, was fascinating to

Betsy Wills: 32:57

and, and the end result of this, um, Alex always likes to say it's, it's permission, you know, you're giving yourself permission. Like I can do that with some confidence that that's, that would be a fit for me. Everything's going to take motivation and hard work, obviously, but for you, it will not feel like an uphill battle. to do those things, the things you're talking about, because you actually do have the aptitude fit for them. And we all have aptitude fits for many, many things. So it's just finding the right one that personalizes it to you.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 33:27

Yeah.

Alex Ellison: 33:27

And sometimes they

Betsy Wills: 33:28

let's go down a little bit more and just take you, finish this tour so we can.

Alex Ellison: 33:33

I was just going to say, sometimes, like you said, there are very adjacent careers. It doesn't take a massive leap, but maybe just a small pivot, um, to tap into more of those aptitudes. So, what you can see here now is some really helpful career data around. career growth. Is this a growing field? Is it a declining field? Where in the country do we see the most growth in this industry? Um, what sectors of the economy do you find engineering professors? Obviously the majority are working at universities, um, but some are also in community colleges and trade schools. So a lot of really helpful information. If you ever had to do a career report, this is all here. And then also you can see the education investment, Stephanie. So when you talked about maybe going back to school, you can see, okay, what do I already have? What degree do I already have? And how much more education would I need? Um, some jobs have a combination of, you know, formal education plus on the job training. Maybe it's actually just a certification plus on the job training. So you'll see that breakdown here.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 34:34

Yeah. Fascinating.

Alex Ellison: 34:35

Yeah. So. me stop sharing here.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 34:42

So I think that was so interesting because, um, also, you know, I like that you have the interest fit and the aptitude fit in that dashboard, and then you can also do overall fit. And so one of the top things was industrial organizational psychologists, which is fascinating because, um, I don't have a PhD, but I have, I do have a master's in organizational communication. And so, you know, day to day basis, I'm working with on their communication. Um, and so using the Enneagram, but of course, like, What if I could expand that more? What would that look like? You know, so it kind of gave me some things where I was just curious about different avenues to, to pursue.

Betsy Wills: 35:19

Right.

Alex Ellison: 35:20

I love that. That's great.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 35:24

I think one other thing that struck me was, um, that in my own experience with my career, I felt like. There's something wrong with me that I'm not getting it. There's something wrong with me that I'm not really thriving, or I'm not loving this, or doesn't everyone want to do this? Why am I not enjoying it? Um, and this was one of those things again, like you said, permission, right? Where it's like, Oh, it makes sense that I don't exactly love this part of my work because it's just something that's going to naturally stretch me versus naturally be a good fit.

Alex Ellison: 36:00

We have actually interviewed someone that really illustrates that exact feeling and he, um, was working in accounting and, you know, he'd gotten his education in that. He was very confident that that's what he was going to going to thrive in and really love it. And. He every day was just on the, you know, it was just struggling and just really fatigued by the work every day. But to make that even worse, like salt in the wound was that he'd look around and all of his colleagues were just like on cloud nine, loving their jobs. Everyone was so happy, just thriving in their element. And so it just made it made him feel so much worse. Right? So he ended up moving into, uh, Uh, actually waste management, right? Betsy. It was a waste management company, but he was actually doing branding and advertising and you know, that, that, that brand management piece, and it was so much more of a fit for his, um, more creative impulses as well as just, just the environment was what he wanted. Um, yeah, go ahead.

Betsy Wills: 36:57

But the good news with that was he had this accounting degree, which was always very useful and he could do the work. It's just that he didn't feel like every day he was energized by it. So a lot of times we can work our way or, you know, apply a lot of grit to do something. Certainly hard work and practice. You can almost do anything. But why would you? So he was able to salvage something that he had invested a lot of time and money in with the accounting, and that actually really brought an asset to that other career, and, uh, now it's a very entrepreneurial job, actually, they, it was a start up company, I think they rent dumpsters or something to construction, so, I mean, it was more than just, I guess, waste management, but, uh, I guess that's the industry, but, uh, he's loving it, and it's doing extremely well, so.

Alex Ellison: 37:48

You know, a lot of people we talked to have like a law degree, for example, and they end up going into something else. We talked to someone who, uh, was a very competitive, uh, softball athlete. And, um, she ended up getting her law degree, but just had this itch to do something back in the sports industry. And she actually started a, uh, pickleball content, media content company called the pickler. And so this was a way she didn't drop her law practice. She's still doing that, but this was something she could add on to tap into more of her other aptitudes and other interests that weren't being, uh, used in her, uh, law career.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 38:26

yeah, that's so fascinating and I really appreciate that because this question of burnout always comes back, right, in any conversation we're having about career, um, because that's where a lot of us do find burnout. So how can your hidden genius help us when we're facing that?

Alex Ellison: 38:45

That's a great question. Yeah. So some of the examples we gave you are, are, I think are telling. So there's two things, you know, Betsy always says, don't put your job on the witness stand. So, um, actually this was my, my cousin. I actually interviewed for the book who was working as a respiratory therapist and she was totally burned out. This was before COVID and she was totally burned out, was just not energized or inspired by her work. COVID happens, all of a sudden, the work becomes super urgent, super busy, super fast paced and her clients or her, her patients change, uh, all of a sudden now she's working with a lot of young patients, which is actually heartbreaking, but brings a new, um, energy and urgency and importance to her work and all of a sudden she's in her element again. So it wasn't, thank goodness she was about to abandon ship and just say goodbye to her career. Actually, when I gave her the you science assessment, respiratory therapy was a wonderful match for her aptitudes. It was a matter of context, and the context changed. And then she fell back in love with her work. Other times, we, we see people who add something onto their existing work, like an avocation and other times, it's just raising your hand to do more of the writing or more of the social media or more of the design, uh, for your existing company, um, to tap into some of those aptitudes, uh, that are not being met.

Betsy Wills: 40:04

Now, like I noticed on your results, you're a liaison Stephanie, which is more of a personality measure, very connected, I think in many ways to Enneagram, but, uh, liaison specialists, they're kind of different. Group together want to go deep on whatever it is and we always explain it such that you know Let's say you were a travel agent and you were just you know, a travel agent is a very generalist kind of job You're gonna book the Disney cruise. You're gonna send the convention to Vegas to this and that hotel But if you were in that job Within a week, he would be researching everything on Cuba, and you'd want to be the go to person on Cuba. Like, you'd still book the Disney Cube, but, the Disney Cruise, but you would absolutely have a specialty inside of that job. And so that can also alter things for people, is where they, they, they, Find a special role within the job they already have or a special area where they can, um, be the expert in some way, or apply that aptitude for idea rate by again, writing the company newsletter or volunteering to, um, you know, train people, for example. So sometimes it's just altering the role within the career you're in. And then sometimes certainly you have to leave and make a big change.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 41:24

yeah, I really appreciate all of this new information that I'm gaining and I know our listeners are gaining from this as well. Um, were there any other pieces of the kind of process of assessing that you wanted to talk about or the results? Yeah,

Betsy Wills: 41:39

we could talk about, um, how to use that. Discussion guide, which I think is invaluable. Um, maybe we can pull that up, Alex, and show it to him.

Alex Ellison: 41:47

Let me just find it again here. I think this is it. OkaY. Here.

Betsy Wills: 41:51

Okay, so one of the great things about having your aptitude results that, again, do not really change after you've gone through puberty, so age 17 to 77, you can take this assessment, and you're gonna score the same. Because, again, we're just assessing the seeds of your skills, not the skills themselves. So we are always developing new skills, but we want to be developing skills that relate to our aptitudes. So there's lots of tools that you can use within the Science platform, as we've shown you, but also on Your Hidden Genius, we've created all kinds of workshops and that kind of thing. But this is one of my favorite tools. Um, This is called the discussion guide and it's available on the uScience website once you get your results. And what we've done is we've, uh, written, uh, Words about you that relate to your aptitudes. So everybody's report will be different. And here's yours says, you know, you're a collaborative, you've got a visual mind, you're logical, you're, you create a lot of ideas on and on and on. And, um, what I recommend people do is make two copies of this, uh, one for yourself and one for someone who loves you and knows you very well. So your husband, your mother, your sister, your coworker. And take a highlighter and pick six words that really hit home to you. Um, now you can use all these words for your resume or for your LinkedIn profile or to talk about yourself. But for this exercise, I would just say pick six words. And then you'll also see in this report, uh, if you scroll down, Alex, maybe 55 different first person statements about you. And this is where a lot of people kind of have trouble when describing themselves. They don't really know where to start, so we've done the work for you. I would suggest you pick six of these and highlight them. Just six, and there's fifty, so you're going to have to choose. And then ask the person who knows you well to take their blank copy of this and do the same exercise, not with you. And then sit down together. And what you're going to find is a truly wonderful conversation because they're going to say, Oh, I picked that one because don't you remember that time that you did this or you always do this? Don't you remember? And they're going to tell you a story. And that story is going to remind you and confirm within you and give you the confidence also to absolutely lean into these aptitudes and use them in different ways. It's um, also helpful to use this. Um, sometimes I. I take all these phrases and words and I throw them in chat GBT and ask them to rewrite them as a statement about me, and it's really fun to see what comes out. That's a useful way to put it to work as well. This is just one example of all the different ways, uh, understanding what your aptitudes are can take you to new places and more insight. And, you know, I always say this is truly about empathy and love. Honestly, it's understanding other people, not as a flawed version of you. But as, as a wonderful person in the universe, just as Enneagram does that magic for people, I think this has a whole nother layer that it can add to that,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 45:05

this perspective. And I also love, um, You know, attaching these stories to them because that's what we're always taught to do when we're like writing resumes or cover letters or whatever else. And so this is like a bank of things that we can draw on. Um, if we decide, okay, I do want to, you know, move to a different career. and I'm curious for the two of you, if you each have one aptitude that comes to mind that really benefited you or supported you in some way in writing this book.

Alex Ellison: 45:34

Definitely, Betsy and I have 2 complimentary aptitudes. You don't have to pick this one Betsy, but for me, it's definitely how I score on the idea generation exercise. So I am what's called a concentrated focuser. And so I, for the longest time, um, Uh, in work meetings where there was, you know, a lot of brainstorming going on, I was always the one who was pulling out my hair, like, just wanting to get to work. I wanted to pick something and just go with it and see what would work and then iterate from there. Um, I, I've always been really frustrated, um, when, when people would say things like, you know, let's go back to the drawing board. Like, let's see what else we could do. You know, I just wanted to, like, implement. Um, and so people would sometimes say, maybe I was rash or I felt like I was just jumping in. Um, Um, but what I learned when I started my own practice is that I am an implementer and I don't sit on things for too long. And so I just, I go and, and that became an asset. Whereas I had previously seen it as a negative, I now see it as a positive. Um, but it does have to be managed. And so when Betsy and I were writing the book, Betsy is a consummate brainstormer. And so it was this really nice. Tug, you know, push and pull where, you know, Betsy would say, how about this? How about this? What if we thought about it this way or tried it this way? And I would say, let's go with this one for now and just see what, see how that looks. And we would, you know, start writing a chapter and then we'd go back and iterate from there. But that's a really nice pairing actually, if you can find that in your work life, um, to work with people who are both concentrated Focusers and Brainstormers.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 47:09

Yeah. And you have the advantage of understanding. We have different strengths, not like the frustration. I mean, I'm sure it can be frustrating at times, but instead of getting mired in that frustration, you can like see the benefit.

Alex Ellison: 47:22

Yes, exactly.

Betsy Wills: 47:23

Yeah, I think one of the subtitles of the book is to harness these aptitudes. And so they definitely need to be reined in sometimes or given more nourishment, really. But, uh, the interesting thing is I know you were scored, you scored us an idea, um, A lot of ideas, Stephanie, in your score, a brainstormer like me. And what I always like to tell people is, you know, having a lot of ideas doesn't mean you have any good ideas. It just means you have a lot. We're just measuring the rate at which they come to you. So, um, That's really, to me, uh, something to, to understand because people who don't have this fast rate of ideas oftentimes make fantastic surgeons or pilots, they, they are focused on one thing at a time and that's what we want. So it's where you're putting this, these aptitudes that matter much more than just knowing that you have them. And that's why the book is really helpful because you can read all these stories about how people put them to work and then what the challenges are for each.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 48:27

and then one other thing that's come to mind just as we've been discussing this is how can we create greater equity in the workplace using these concepts that you've presented?

Alex Ellison: 48:40

Yeah, I'll chime in and just say, you know, kind of. Piggybacking off of what we were talking about earlier with the bias that is, uh, that surrounds, uh, career guidance. When we just look at people's self reported interests. Um, our interests are, like I said earlier, influenced by who we grew up around the community. We grew up in. The kind of television shows we watch the kind of media we consume. And so there's really a real, uh, exposure gap. We know that there's not actually a talent gap. The talent is out there. It's just that we're not providing adequate exposure, um, to people when they're navigating and exploring career options. Um, I've always been a huge proponent of, of early job exposure and shadowing. Um, when I was doing my research in Switzerland, I was obsessed with this concept of the sneak peek week where students can actually just go take a look at a company for a week and be a fly on the wall. So I think exposure is really the answer in, in, in getting greater equity in the workplace. That for me is like, that needs to come first. I mean, I know Betsy has comments on this too, but,

Betsy Wills: 49:51

No, I agree 100%. And I think the reality is we're all, we all need more exposure at every age to what our options are. I mean, when people call me unhappy, I'm like, Well, the first thing you need to do is, you know, talk to 100 people. And that's shocking to people. But there's a real difference between making a decision and defaulting. And unfortunately, most of us default, we don't spend enough time exploring, And so I would say that that's the biggest thing I could recommend to people is, you know, to give yourself the grace of exploring. And once you understand what your aptitudes are, you're going to have so much more fun with it to know sort of where to go. Why, like, why not talk to that genetic counselor? And I hope you have, um, and learn about what their day is like. It could lead to some totally different thing that you never thought about before.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 50:44

Well, and I love it too because looking at those careers, there are so many and so many things I never would have considered or it never would have, you know, crossed my mind. Um, and so. It feels like exciting and, you know, like you said before, permission. Um, so I really appreciate that aspect of it.

Alex Ellison: 51:04

and now you have this new vocabulary. So when you're writing that cold email or making that cold call to the genetic counselor, you know, you can say, Hey, I just learned that I have this aptitude for spatial reasoning and numerical reasoning, and I want to see how I can put these to work and to the test. Can I, can I come observe what you do? So this, this hopefully helps you with that communication as well.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 51:25

yeah, I love it. This is so cool. Um, well, our podcast listeners will hopefully are not getting nervous. I'm going to ditch the podcast soon here. Um, that's, that's probably not happening, but, um, you know, we'll see, maybe it'll become a new iteration of the podcast. Um,

Betsy Wills: 51:41

start interviewing more genetic counselors, who knows, right? I

Stephanie Barron Hall: 51:45

yeah. I mean, there's so many opportunities, um, so many possibilities. So. Where can our listeners connect with you and get this book? Because I think everyone is going to want it now that we've been talking about all of this and I've been talking about, you know, my insights and, and hearing from you guys. Um, so we want hidden genius. Where do we find you? Where do we get your book?

Alex Ellison: 52:06

You're hidden genius. com. Um, and then anywhere you buy books, um, it's also, um, on audible. Um, so anywhere you buy books, you can grab it, but if you want to see all of our resources and the free tools that we were talking about for workshops or, you know, discussions with your team, you can, um, get those resources at our website. You're hidden genius. com.

Betsy Wills: 52:28

Yeah, and I would say, just to outline it for people, what's different about this book is it's so much more than a book. Um, as you did, you, you read the first two chapters, it sort of explains all that we've talked about before now. So you're, you're understanding why this is different than Enneagram or interest assessments or personality assessments and why you need it. And then, um, the next thing you do is you use the unique code on the back and then you go take the assessment. And then I would say come back and you're going to read the rest of the book, which is going to be all about you. Which, who doesn't love that topic? Okay.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 53:05

Um, so two closing questions. I always love to ask our guests. First one is tell me about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year. Okay, Alex, we can start with you.

Alex Ellison: 53:18

Um, gosh, it depends on like the, there's like, there's two that come to mind. So, um, in, in like understanding, I think our social and political landscape in this country, I feel like Tightrope, uh, was a book that I read in the last few years that really helped me see, um, Just, yeah, just that landscape in a really fresh new way and, and with more empathy. Um, and then, uh, another author that's really inspired me in the last couple of years on like a more spiritual level has been John O'Donohue, who's passed, who passed away a few years ago, but, um, his work has inspired me. I think on, on that more spiritual level. So two different levels,

Stephanie Barron Hall: 54:04

Love it. That's perfect. What about you, Betsy?

Betsy Wills: 54:09

I mean, I'm really having trouble thinking of something. I read a lot of non fiction, mostly history. So, I just read a book called Master Slave. Um, Husband and Wife, I believe. It's a Pulitzer Prize winning book. But That's really it.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 54:30

That's fine. That's great. Um, and I also think, you know, for authors, we understand that you are, you have read this about 15 times, but, um, you know, other books are harder. So then tell me one piece of advice that has really stuck with you,

Betsy Wills: 54:46

okay. I have that one. Um, I did read this book a long time ago called the sweet potato queen's book of love. I'm from the South. And she talks about her grandfather every time that, um, they would go see him. He would lean into the car as they were leaving. And instead of saying goodbye or come back soon or whatever you would say, he would say, Be particular and she said, well, what does that not cover everything that next person you're going to go out with that next? Morsel, you're going to put in your mouth be particular and I think that's great advice

Stephanie Barron Hall: 55:21

I love it. That's so funny.

Alex Ellison: 55:24

My daughter comes up with zingers. She's 11 and a couple of years ago, um, she, someone was kind of droning on and on about something and she says, get to the middle of the cinnamon roll. So I have a tendency to like, you know, just kind of go on and on and I try to get to the middle middle of the cinnamon roll as fast as I can. Did

Stephanie Barron Hall: 55:44

It's the juicy part.

Alex Ellison: 55:46

you see this? Yes, the gooey part for sure.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 55:49

Great. Well, thank you so much for sharing your, your time and your, your genius with me today. I've learned so much and I am so excited to share this, um, with the podcast too, because I think that a lot of us will gain a lot of things, um, like really practical takeaways, um, from all of this work. So thanks so much for joining

Betsy Wills: 56:09

the opportunity

Stephanie Barron Hall: 56:11

of course,

Alex Ellison: 56:12

you

Stephanie Barron Hall: 56:13

glad to have

Alex Ellison: 56:13

was a fun conversation.