Christina W: 1:47

There's always something. whether it's still related in that same vein, or I find something else to not understand and like need, it's like, I have to have certainty in my mind, in every area of my life to feel safe and the brief moments where I've felt certain about X, Y, and Z. that's when I've realized like, certainty alone. Doesn't make me feel safe. and it might never make me feel safe, because sometimes you have all the answers and you could still be in an unsafe environment. That's a really hard thing for me to navigate and so it just kind of, I just started having to unpack, like, how do I build safety for and what does safety actually look like and what if safety isn't always, like, again, how am I defining safety? I'm defining it as certainty. Right? So it's it just kind of reconciling that certainty doesn't always equal safety

3:04

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Enneagram and real life. The podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host, Stephanie Barron hall. And on today's episode, I am chatting with Christina Wilcox. Now this episode is a little bit different from some of the other interviews that I've done, because we've known each other for a while, and it's just really two friends chatting and catching up and talking about the Enneagram. But I really love this episode because we really explore. A lot of type six things that I think are not talked about all that often. And we get to hear a lot of Christina's internal processing of the different questions that we're discussing and just, you know, different aspects of this conversation. So we're going to talk about type six, typing, like how she kind of had to figure out her type through various other numbers. And if you're familiar with Christina on Instagram at all. You might've seen that. She originally said she was a four and then she posted that she was a three and then eventually she came around to type six. And so I really loved her exploration of that and just the courage to, to. Come out and say, Hey, actually, I got it wrong. Um, and here's why, and here are some of the reasons, and then we talk about OCD versus type six and how she determines those two things and how she teases them apart. And how any type can really have any of these mental health diagnoses like OCD, for example. and then she also talks a lot about getting in touch with emotions as a six and how it kind of manifests physically first. And I really appreciated this conversation because I do think a lot of sixes, they. I think, you know, oh, I have this connection to emotions because there can be fear, but they're really trying to mitigate the fear and not experience it. and so she talks about how she's learned to be able to label her emotions a little bit more accurately. And then we also talk about her five wing and how she kind of was able to determine, okay, I'm not a five, I do have this five wing, but, I'm not a five. And one thing I'd love to mention is Christina does talk today about the arrows or the arrow lines. And so she talks about them as stress insecurity. And we didn't discuss this because we didn't have time. And I really wanted to hear more of her story today, but, um, I have a bit of a different perspective on the arrows. So I see them not as stress and security numbers, but other. You know, aspects or points on the Enneagram that we can access. In different times of life, whether that's intentionally or unintentionally. Um, and if you want to learn more about that, you can explore it further and exactly what it might look like and my upcoming book and a gram in real life. So that is one of the topics that I described for. Every single type. And I really think it'll be helpful for us to understand that this part of the Enneagram a little bit differently. So before we begin the interview. I'll share a little bit more about Christina. Christina is a 26 year old author mental health advocate, Enneagram expert, and creative. You may recognize her from her first book, take care of your type and Enneagram guide to self care. Or from one of her Instagram graphics. And since we recorded this podcast episode, Christina released her second book, which is called take care of your friends. And it's all about how to apply some of the concepts that she talks about in taking care of your own type, like, how to be kind to yourself and, and friendship and those sorts of things and doing that for your friends and it's just a fantastic guide to be in positive relationships with other people. So. Christina continues to pursue her passion for writing and analysis of behavior. As she works a nine to five job in content strategy. She hopes to continue to advance her understanding of the Enneagram while expanding her written work and online content into other mental health topics outside of personality typing systems. She currently resides in Denver, Colorado with her husband, Noah and their puppy moose. And by the way, moose is very cute. She does post about him on Instagram. When she's not writing or creating, you can find Christina indulging in cozy video games, books across every genre. And quality time with friends and family. You can find her online at Christina S. Wilcox on Instagram. Um, at kristina S wilcox.com, which all of these will be in the show notes. And then also her YouTube and podcast is called genuinely care about you podcast. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Christina S. Wilcox.

Steph Barron Hall: 7:35

Well, Christina, welcome to the podcast.

Christina W: 7:38

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here and catch up. I love the work you're doing with this podcast and excited to be here.

Steph Barron Hall: 7:48

Yeah. Thanks so much. I'm also excited to hear a little bit more about. Your process because we'll talk about this more, but I haven't had many sixes on the podcast.

Christina W: 8:00

So

Steph Barron Hall: 8:01

and I've only had one five. So if anyone out there knows a five

Christina W: 8:04

I know.

Steph Barron Hall: 8:05

who is willing to, you know, be recorded,

Christina W: 8:09

Yes. Yes. Well, I am a wing five, so maybe I can touch a little bit.

Steph Barron Hall: 8:15

maybe you can enlighten us.

Christina W: 8:16

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 8:17

I love it. A little bit of an introduction into you and also how you got into the Enneagram.

Christina W: 8:24

Yeah. so I'm Christina Wilcox for anyone who doesn't know. and you're like, who are you and why are you here? but I, uh, Basically, my career journey thus far has been pretty segmented into typical corporate nine to five marketing, copywriting girl, and then in 2019, I started posting about the Enneagram for fun on my personal Instagram account. And it, I always say it like nichely went viral because it wasn't like a full blown viral situation, but as in the niche of the Enneagram, it kind of went viral along with a lot of, other creators like yourself and, Sarah Jane Case and a bunch of people. It just was like the explosion of the Enneagram on Instagram. and so the other half of my career has been content creation and, authorship, writing books about the Enneagram and then, it's kind of slowly, more evolving to and to, mental health advocacy and just talking more about, mental health in general as, um, I really started my own journey. When all of that had happened to me, but I discovered the Enneagram through a, um, I was super into the Myers Briggs, That was like my first introduction into personality typing, and I made everyone I knew take it. I am an INFJ, so when I got my result, and it was like, you're within the least popular Personality, you know, whatever, like in the population, I was like, that's why I feel so different. Oh my gosh. And it was such a, in the friend group I was in at the time too, everyone else tested as extroverts and I was the only introvert. So I was also finally able to explain my disappearances to people with a language, um, and words that I wasn't acquainted with before, but, That kind of fell into the Enneagram and when I was first introduced to it, it was actually a church with someone I was like singing with at the time And he was a four and he was like you just give me a lot of four energy And I think you're a four too And when I read the four Description I was like horrified no offense to any fours I mean all the respect but because it wasn't accurate to me and someone was like You It was like a weird experience, because he was really putting it down my throat that I was a four. And so I kind of was like, I don't like this thing. I don't want to be involved in it, whatever. And then, about a year later, I was reintroduced to it, and I took the test. and I actually tested as a three at first. which, six is in stress. Show a lot of three traits. And when I took that test, I definitely was in more of a state season of stress in my life. and so I really identified with the heart triad for a long time. but it wasn't until I actually started going to therapy and with the Enneagram to like dissecting my actual motivations that I was like, no, I'm for sure a mind type, there's no doubt about that. and then eventually I landed on. Once I was out of the state of stress and when I noticed that too, like when It's so hard when you're so deep into the system At the point i'm at now like at some point it just feels like words reverberating in my brain um But I did start to notice that when I was growing or I felt safe or whatever I did show a lot of nine tendencies as well so I just started to find the little pathway that I was following in stress and growth and My core motivate core motivations and. Yeah, that's, I, I was, I feel like I was the longest content creator, Enneagram content creator that like didn't, it took me the longest to figure out my type, like I didn't start posting knowing for sure what my own type was. Which I feel like is very interesting, but, yeah, I'm pretty confident now that I'm a six.

Steph Barron Hall: 13:04

What test did you take?

Christina W: 13:06

Oh gosh. I think I took like the eclectic energies.

Steph Barron Hall: 13:10

Mm hmm. Mm

Christina W: 13:11

Um, and then at one point I did take the Enneagram Institute test for a job. and that one I actually came back as a two. but it's interesting. When you leave again, like the environment I was in and the stress I was under really influenced how I adapted myself to. situations, but I would say that I definitely always have had the six traits without a doubt. My mom is also a six. so she just copy and pasted herself.

Steph Barron Hall: 13:56

ha ha. Yeah. There you go. Um, I think that that's helpful to hear because there are certainly sixes who find their type immediately, but I've even had people call me for like a typing interview and be like, I think I'm a six, but I'm not sure. I want this interview to be sure. And I've said, you know what? Even if I tell you you're a six, you're not going to

Christina W: 14:19

no.

Steph Barron Hall: 14:20

and literally kind of turning people away because not because I don't think that it could be helpful, but more so, I don't think for that particular person, the certainty that they're looking for is what they're going to receive.

Christina W: 14:35

No, and that's the thing is at one point I did get a six like on every single test I took I was coming back as a six and I was still like, but I don't know really and I think too with sixes the fact that it's like I'm looking for someone else To give me this stamp of certainty that I feel like I cannot give myself And especially for phobic sixes like myself, like looking to outside authorities to give that, like, I am coming to you for this interview because I deem you as more trustworthy. But the funny thing about sixes is even when they do that, like for speaking for myself and my mom and the sixes, I know I could gather Intel from. 30 different people. I'm still gonna do what I thought I was gonna do to begin with at the end of the day, which is so funny because it's such wasted energy. but I think that that's so funny that people who are a six are coming to you asking please make this certain. That's so ironic.

Steph Barron Hall: 15:48

Yeah. Well, and I think I really see six as having a really hard time finding their type as well as nines. Um, and I think a lot of the time we do talk more about the nine aspect of that, whereas sixes, especially, you know, self preservation sixes sometimes do feel a lot more like heart types. Sometimes social sixes feel like more like ones. Um, and so can be a really difficult thing to parse out, like actually what's happening, especially with, you know, I'm just thinking of social sixes that I know, for example, Maybe don't show how anxious they actually feel on the outside.

Christina W: 16:29

mm hmm. Yeah, that's what I mean, too, with even though I was testing as all these different numbers, I once had a really close friend of mine, I think I was like a junior or senior in high school, and we were like out to eat and With a bunch of friends and everyone was like assigning each other an animal that we were most like, or whatever. And I remember this so vividly. Cause he looked at me and was like, Christina, you are a duck. And I was like, out of everything you could have chosen, like, why am I a duck? And he said, because on the outside you are gliding across the water and it looks so graceful. And he was like, but I know underneath your feet. Are just going crazy. And I had never been so exposed like that before. Yeah. It's like, excuse me. I was not, I did not give you permission. but I think that that's so true with, especially when I was younger, I would say I was definitely gravitated more towards the social subtype. that makes total sense. And I do think that our anxiety isn't always as visible as, as we It's like posted about or written about for sure. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 17:43

between like, oh, this is just, you know, anxiety or even like a diagnosable anxiety disorder versus six?

Christina W: 17:52

That's a great question. I think what's interesting is there was a point, even though I had tested as a six, that when I got my OCD diagnosis, it led me on a whole other path of like, okay, so is the intrusive thoughts related to the worst case scenario thinking that I thought was a six? But it's actually this and what kind of sealed the deal for me is I do think I Kind of even though I don't define myself by OCD and I view it as like a chemical imbalance in my brain I do feel as though it is related to like a part of me, a part of me who has never felt certain about anything and needing that certainty. So I kind of started to come to the conclusion that they definitely are separate entities. Like if you took away OCD, I'm still going to be questioning people around me. I'm still going to be like having the typical six traits, but I do see that a part of even like the origin story of sixes and their core motivations is super. It makes sense to me that I also developed a coping mechanism to deal with doubt. OCD is literally defined as the doubting disorder. And that doesn't mean every 6 has OCD by any means, but for me and my journey, and like, when I started really going to therapy, I actually realized that my 6 ness and this diagnosis I had received, And like where it was birthed from are very connected. Um, but I think, I think it's a lot easier than people make it sound like specifically on social media. Like it is very clear to me when my behavior has become clinical versus okay, I'm just nervous, you know,

Steph Barron Hall: 20:05

Or like fear,

Christina W: 20:06

fear. Yeah. I think what distinguished it again was the

Steph Barron Hall: 20:11

say that because, um, So a friend

Christina W: 20:14

Though I believe sixes, like, overthink, a stark characteristic of OCD is rumination, and then the compulsion to eliminate the distress from the rumination. Where, again, can be related to a sixes being like, oh, I'm gonna plan for this worst case scenario, but to me it was never, like, it started to, I can't, I don't know how to explain it, but it was very clear that, what I'm ruminating on, Or even the fact that I'm ruminating so much on being a six. And then at one point, one of my compulsions was taking the test to be so real. And so then that's when it started to be like, okay, this isn't, I'm not just being sexy right now. Like this is, yeah. Mm hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 21:13

and also an OCD and a therapist and, um, mentioned, yeah, and mentioned to me that she could imagine, um, cause I actually, have struggled at times with my type as well. Um, and especially because I finally figured out, Oh, I'm like the sexual subtype of type three. Um, and that's like a very different expression a lot of the time. And so also, I have OCD,

Christina W: 21:42

yeah Yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 21:44

a very recent revelation, but, super helpful and important one. And she just kind of noted that tendency to constantly be checking and rechecking, am I actually three? Am I actually three? And I think since I had that conversation with her, it's actually been really useful and more helpful for me to be like, Oh, like I can kind of decipher a little bit more like, Oh, that's an OCD thought or like. That's, you know, a real thing. And I've just been researching a ton, like the connection between like, especially scrupulosity and, and growing up in some of the environments, like in terms of like religious environments that I did. and I, yeah, I just think it's so interesting to try to like, kind of tease these things apart. and then I'm sometimes like, wait, am I doing the rumination?

Christina W: 22:35

gosh at some point I'll be like I probably look crazy from the outside But like again, I'll just be like researching so or doing the same thing because I also love to You Pick, pick this even topic exactly apart. And then when I start going into like, wait, did I, is that, and then again, the spiral starts and I, sometimes you just got to chuckle because it's this is ridiculous. It's

Steph Barron Hall: 23:00

You're like, I'm doing it. I know I'm doing the thing.

Christina W: 23:03

Yes.

Steph Barron Hall: 23:03

can't stop the train right

Christina W: 23:05

No, no. And sometimes acknowledging it is all you can do.

Steph Barron Hall: 23:10

Yeah,

Christina W: 23:10

The train is going and I know it's going

Steph Barron Hall: 23:14

yeah.

Christina W: 23:14

It's going.

Steph Barron Hall: 23:16

And I think it can be really difficult, especially, I don't know if you've felt this way, but like having, you know, kind of this career that's so public facing, especially when you have a lot of obsessions and things about harming, like saying something that

Christina W: 23:30

Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Steph Barron Hall: 23:32

and then trying to navigate how to like be a person

Christina W: 23:36

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 23:37

promote your work.

Christina W: 23:39

It's horrible.

Steph Barron Hall: 23:41

mind

Christina W: 23:42

such a mess. Truly. I, one of a huge compulsion and like theme I had to work through in, cause I did about a year and a half, maybe two years of exposure response prevention therapy. And literally at one point, She was like, I don't know if this is a theme of OCD, but she said, it's a theme for you is just even the fear that like, I posted something I don't remember. Or like this one word I used is going to be, especially when that had happened to me before actually. And that was enough to like, paralyze my ability to do anything involved with. social media for a while and There is this like you said I want to show up as me and as a person and as my Full self because it's also fun. Like I love interacting With the people that follow me. It's like the main joy of what we do I think is just connecting with people but then there is that like pressure of being an advocate for so many things because you have a platform regardless of what it is or what you think about it, it is difficult of balancing and figuring out that dance of Being scared to advocate for anything even or even getting stuck of like is this Performative is this genuine is this this and it's just like oh my gosh Girl, just post and I started to do that. I started to be like, here's the sky today or you know That's what I'll do. Sometimes when I find myself in these spirals is just post something so mindless Or, I don't know, it is, this has become a ramble, but just, it is a hard, it is interesting how OCD formulate, or the fear of getting cancelled, the fear of, you said, I already have that fear of like harming people, and not remembering,

Steph Barron Hall: 26:01

Mm hmm.

Christina W: 26:02

whatever it is, the way that translates when you have a platform on social media, is crazy.

Steph Barron Hall: 26:09

Yeah. And I think it's like helpful to make that distinction too. I mean, I can even just hear you wrestling through this, but like the distinction is and correct me if I'm wrong, but this is kind of how I think about it. It's not necessarily, I'm afraid that other people will think this thing about me. It's like, I can imagine specific people that could potentially be hurt by saying something wrong and then obsessing about that.

Christina W: 26:29

Oh my gosh. 100%. It's not even like, oh, I'm scared the general public will hate me. It's like, I will think of, it could be people that I know or usernames I recognize, or even just like a group of people within my audience where I'm like, yeah, it is the fear of like thinking of specific names or faces or people. Yeah. That's crazy. I never really, I never put that together before. That's. Hey, that's fun.

Steph Barron Hall: 27:01

I mean, I, I think that it's helpful though, to like, kind of discuss and wrestle through. Like, I know that you talk about this on your page about like the mental health advocacy aspect of it. Um, but I think it's helpful because I think sometimes people kind of want all the Enneagram types to fit in with certain things. And so with, OCD, they're like, oh, it's either type one or

Christina W: 27:25

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 27:27

And of course the type one is like, because they assume that OCD is just like having your house really clean or

Christina W: 27:33

Oh, yeah, it's like the dishwasher has to be this way. So yeah, no.

Steph Barron Hall: 27:38

Oh man, my dishwasher is a nightmare. And when my husband's editing this, he's going to be like, that is absolutely

Christina W: 27:44

Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Steph Barron Hall: 27:45

loads a dishwasher like a drunk squirrel.

Christina W: 27:47

Yes, literally, but it's so funny like you're saying I feel like With fitting into, like you said, like a type and a category. And it's so, I feel like that's such an important, like you said, important conversation that people still break the molds of like what you think they are, which is why I fell in love with the Enneagram too, is like marrying behavior and motivation, not just something like the Myers Briggs or whatever. But it is funny. Cause when it's like, oh my gosh, you're six and you have OCD, how cliche and I'm like, and we got ADHD though. So

Steph Barron Hall: 28:25

Fun little combo.

Christina W: 28:26

Or whatever it is, you know, but, um, I, I do think, yeah, to agree with what you're saying, breaking that, breaking those molds is so important because it also makes like the journey of finding your Enneagram type is something that can be very deep and impactful when it's like, especially if it's your first real experience with going inward and figuring out, sifting through who you are. Um, and what you identify with, um, but I also think too, it's like people are people at the end of the day, more than a six, you know?

Steph Barron Hall: 29:09

And, and also that's why I try to normalize this component of like finding your type where so many people Missed type for so long. Um and I can't remember if I've shared this on the podcast. so I'll just be generic, but like somebody close to me, has gone through all the different types and has finally figured out, you know, pretty much their type. but we've learned something interesting and like helpful. about our relationship and about, um, them at each juncture. So it's not for nothing, you know what I mean? Um, and I think that's useful to remember because people are like, Oh, what if I go down the wrong path for forever?

Christina W: 29:50

Mm.

Steph Barron Hall: 29:51

it's like, well, maybe that's a path you needed to go down, you know? Um, so I think that can just be helpful to remember, especially if you are listening to this and you're like either of us here that you're like,

Christina W: 30:02

Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 30:04

super worried about not getting your type

Christina W: 30:06

Yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 30:07

It's all right. You're, you're a full person and this is like one component.

Christina W: 30:11

oh my gosh, it's so true, and I, I am a huge believer that, especially because I've been through it, when you're suffering under immense stress, or you are in a situation where you're just trying to survive, or you're unpacking trauma, like, It is okay if you don't know your type right now, or only use the tool in those situations if it will help you. If not, if it's gonna cause even more stress, like, you can pick it. It's gonna be here whenever you're ready for it. but I also think, too, Even with my own journey with first being like put in the box as a four by someone else and then reading the four's description,

Steph Barron Hall: 30:55

do that.

Christina W: 30:57

no. but reading the four's description was like, it insulted me. And even that alone is a clue of like, why, why, like, if you are this type, actually, why is being defined or seen this way? distressing for you and That helped me honestly lead led me on a path to discovering me as a six um and again Me being insulted by the type four description is my own problem fours are lovely and I know many fours that I deeply love Yes,

Steph Barron Hall: 31:44

is, if you had read the sixth description, would you have been insulted? Because probably you were just not feeling understood. You're feeling like, wow, this person really misunderstands who I am.

Christina W: 31:55

I think that's what I think it was one of the And I'm sure you're familiar with this term, too, of like, masking. Like, whether it's ADHD, OCD, whatever it is, like, I was in such a state all the time of masking that That was like one of the first reckonings, I think, with like, Oh, people really aren't seeing me. Like, this is how I'm coping. And this is again, I guess how I'm masking because the person next to me is a four, like, and they think I'm a reflection of who they are. Like, it just was like that first, that's a great point when you say that. Cause it was not just like, Oh, I don't want to be a four. It was this like, Oh my gosh, I'm not being seen as who I am.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:44

Yeah. And I mean, you're an artist. You're a musician.

Christina W: 32:48

Oh yeah, that's like with any, I have a really close friend, who is a seven, but she's super, she's also the sexual type of seven. So she's super like whimsical and loves to unpack deep topics. And she's a lot more in touch with her emotions, I would say. Um, and she, all the time, people are like, You craft so you're a four or like you the and she's like guys. No, I I I'm a seven for sure but it is interesting like you said where it's like just because Of literally anything doesn't mean you fall into that into a box

Steph Barron Hall: 33:33

Yeah. Yeah. It's really frustrating. And it's something where I always tell people, like, don't tell people what they are, right?

Christina W: 33:42

And do you know what's funny? I don't know if this happens to you too, but I've had some people like come up to me and they're like, guess my type. Or they're like, sorry to use that voice guys. Um, love you. But just like, oh, can, you're in the room. Can you tell what all of our types are? And I'm like, guys, it's not a party trick.

Steph Barron Hall: 34:01

right.

Christina W: 34:03

I find that so annoying. It's so just, like you said, don't, as a PSA, don't tell people their type and don't be like, you're literally, if you're using this system, how it was built to, you're literally asking someone to be like, guess my most deep motivations for my behavior. It's like, there's no way, no way. Oh

Steph Barron Hall: 34:26

I, okay, I, I agree. And also there are times certain people you can tell, and, and especially if you know the person well, I also really feel like, and I don't, I don't type people based on this because I think that it's always helpful to get the other person's perspective on what it's like inside their mind,

Christina W: 34:47

mm hmm. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 34:49

but there are times when I can tell. I just feel like this person's a head type or I just

Christina W: 34:55

Oh, yeah. Mm hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 34:57

there are certain things and, you know, just, for example, even in typing interviews, a lot of the time, uh, head types will look in the back of their head. Like, they're looking for the answer in their mind. And sixes, the whole time they say, it depends. Well, it depends. Well, what do you mean by this word? Well, it depends.

Christina W: 35:14

hmm. Mm hmm. Again, because as A self press six. I i'm gonna like I would say i'm a sensitive person like i'm definitely In touch with my emotions to some degree, but it really to Again, going to therapy, doing a lot more inner work, supplementing with the Enneagram about my motivations. It became so clear that I use knowledge seeking, questioning as a way to cope with pain and feeling unsafe of like, I'm not actually feeling anything right now. It's, I'm thinking about what I should be feeling, what I might be feeling, What I'm, I'm approaching my emotions intellectually and not sitting and being like, I'm sad. I'm like, I'm I think I'm sad

Steph Barron Hall: 36:12

how do you make that distinction? Like, is there somewhere in your body where things come up for you or is that hard to connect with?

Christina W: 36:20

It is hard to connect with honestly It has become a practice where I do have to take time out of my day sometimes to just sit for a second My body will let me know You often very physically that it is upset and that's for the longest time has been my indicator that maybe I'm not doing great as opposed to me feeling hurt and being like I'm hurt. It'll be like something will happen and then a couple days later I have my joints hurt or I have all this tension in my body or like I can't fall asleep and I don't know why like just body has been the main Communicator to me that my emotions are off. We're now I do feel like that connection is slowly getting better um With a lot of work, but it definitely for me it it truly is work um too It's weird. I mainly feel it like not just like in my chest but in my forearms i've noticed It's so random. I know that sounds so woo woo, but I mean, it's just like, I'll be sitting and talking about something like, let's say with a friend or in a therapy session. And if there's a section where someone asks a question or maybe hits a nerve with the emotion I'm feeling, it'll just like show up in my forearms and my body and be like, I'm, this is uncomfortable.

Steph Barron Hall: 37:57

What's the sensation like?

Christina W: 37:59

It's like, uh, it just feels like tension. It just feels like my muscles are tightening. It's so weird. It's so weird, but that's how throughout my whole life, I've realized what my emotions are through sometimes even ending up with a fever. When I was a kid, I used to get fevers a lot, randomly, if I didn't even have any other symptoms. Um, So a lot of stuff like that. It's Ah. Yes.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:31

you say that as well, because I've heard sevens, for example, say, you know, I just feel everything in my head. Different areas of my head.

Christina W: 38:40

Oh my gosh.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:41

a six who literally said, when I'm angry, it feels like my ears are hot and my head literally feels hot or I get a headache if I'm really upset.

Christina W: 38:51

hmm. Oh my gosh. So true. And it's like, that is something too that I started working on with my therapist at the beginning of ERP is she started to specifically like with OCD she started asking me, where are you feeling this in your brain? Like point to me where you're feeling like when you're stuck like fully in a rumination cycle Where are you feeling it? And it was crazy because I told her where I was feeling it and she pulled up a brain scan of an OCD brain And she's like literally that's the exact part of your brain that's lit up during this cycle and I feel that same way where it's like or it's similarly to probably an eight or how they talk about like, they feel anger first and then underneath the anger, they uncover, Oh, maybe I'm actually sad. I relate to that in some ways. It's not even that I like feel anger first. It's just like all of a sudden with like the tension in my body or like you said, heat, that's such a huge thing. Or just all of a sudden out of nowhere. Right. It seems like out

Steph Barron Hall: 40:07

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Christina W: 40:09

that I'll be like, Wow, I'm not okay. I don't even know what the emotion is. I don't know what's going on, but all of a sudden it'll just be like, so clear of like, Oh, I'm not, not okay.

Steph Barron Hall: 40:23

Yeah.

Christina W: 40:25

That's so, Oh my gosh. That makes me want to know, what do you notice in typing interviews with heart types, like

Steph Barron Hall: 40:34

Um,

Christina W: 40:35

Like, do they, like you said, with the mind types, they're like going into the back of their brain to find an answer. Like how do, how do heart types approach?

Steph Barron Hall: 40:44

heart types. I feel like heart types smile a lot more just in general, like in the typing interview, um, including force, and. They are more likely to like, try to like, kind of relate, um, and then like, check for understanding

Christina W: 41:04

Mm.

Steph Barron Hall: 41:06

A lot of the time heart types will say, well, like, it kind of depends, but it's not like it depends on the situation as in the same way that sixes say, it's more like, it depends on who I'm with or who's around or what the real scenario is. so like twos, threes, sixes, and nines would say, You know, that type of answer the most, normally threes, I'd say are like, Oh, I'm not that in touch with my emotions. But then they'll talk about instances when they've been really hit with emotions, um, in a way that they hadn't before. And I think that that's because like when they kind of slow down. We're really emotional. Um, and then I think that body types to me typically are pretty grounded. And honestly, I, I swear they don't move as much as

Christina W: 42:00

Honestly, that makes, wow. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 42:06

And like, even, you know, if you're going for a walk with an 8, it's like a race to who walk faster, like, not intentional, but, um, but I think just sitting in the chair, um, It's more common to see other types, like moving a lot more. I would say, especially like head types, I think might move a little bit more. Um, heart types normally would sit more with like their chest forward. And I'm realizing now that I'm kind of doing that. Um, and

Christina W: 42:37

And it's funny as you're saying that I'm like talking to you like this and I'm spinning. Yeah, that makes so much sense.

Steph Barron Hall: 42:44

And these are all like broad generalizations. Like I would never base somebody's type off of that stuff, but they're just like little things that I noticed. And after you do so many of them, you're like, Oh, that's interesting. I really, really try though to look at the, you know, quote unquote data. Like I write down everything that they say, um, and take a lot of notes. So I don't go off of like a vibe, right? I go off of like, what does this say? Um, and what can I connect? And sometimes as I'm going through, I'll, I'll make notes. Like, I might be like, Oh, SP six. Like for example, somebody came to a typing interview. She was like, I know I'm a nine. I just don't know what subtype. So we did the typing interview and I was like,

Christina W: 43:24

Mm-Hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 43:24

I think it's possible. You're a self preservation six. What do you think about that? And, you know, and then I was able to kind of go back and be like, this is, you know, the evidence and, and that's like how I'm trained. Like, it's not like I came up with this, like, that's how I'm trained to like, um, approach that. But, to show we're not just going off of a vibe, right? Like we're, we have like some backing. Um, so.

Christina W: 43:50

That's so cool.

Steph Barron Hall: 43:52

Yeah, I never want it to be like, I'm an expert and then I'm just like telling you, right? Because I think it's important for you as the client or, um, You know, it's your journey that you have the power in

Christina W: 44:03

Mm. Mm hmm. Yeah. That's awesome.

Steph Barron Hall: 44:09

So I'm curious to hear a little bit more about what patterns you see in your daily life as a six, and especially even if you see five patterns too, I know you mentioned the introversion earlier. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Christina W: 44:22

Yeah, um, the main ways I see both five and six, um, Mm hmm. Or how I really knew too, that my wing was a five wing is I had my, so one of my closest friends that I mentioned to, um, is a seven and we were having a conversation about something and she paused in the middle of it and she's like, not to make you aware of something to like think about after this, but she was like, you say. I don't know why, or like, I don't understand, or I just don't know why someone would think this, or I don't know why, like all the time. She's like, you exist. It seems sometimes like just not under. Like you just don't understand, which isn't always true. There are a lot of things I don't understand for sure, but the way I approach even conversations is like, it is really important for me to understand and to know why, whether that's closure or certainty, or just like feeling a sense of, I think with the wing five specifically. Um, I definitely, I have a lot of fears of being depleted in different scenarios where it's like I am somewhere and then all of a sudden I just, I'm going to be, yeah, I'm out. And that will keep me, I feel like my wing five and ADHD are always fighting with each other, to be honest, because my ADHD will sign me. Like when I'm having a good day, I'm like executive defunct. Yes. Literally. I'm like, I've really functioned well today. I'm going to sign up for a bunch of stuff because I'm going to be, this is my new normal, probably. And it never is. And then especially that wing five is just like, actually we are going to disappear. Um, I greatly need alone time, um, to recharge and to feel like myself, but also with fives, I, it's interesting cause my sixness is very much when I like am researching or questioning something is very black and white with. Like first impulse very black and white with what I'm trying to figure out. But then I do feel like my wing five comes to a more neutral conclusion. Like the wing five really assists me to be neutral

Steph Barron Hall: 47:13

Mm hmm.

Christina W: 47:14

and I'm able to, I've noticed that I am able to look at things without being attached to them.

Steph Barron Hall: 47:22

Yeah.

Christina W: 47:23

and just kind of be like, well, what if, but not actually be attached to what could happen or whatever. But specifically more with six traits, I am loyal to people that I don't need to be loyal to, or I think about, I, I feel a sense of obligation to ensure the safety of other people in some way, whether it's me being almost shielding them, which I feel like a lot of sixes relate to Defending people a lot and defending the similarly to eight like defending the causes that they're passionate about I also feel that way like i'm very Loyal to also the common good like it really When people are thinking too much about like one specific group or one specific thing and not like how their decision will affect a broad, like, what about this group and what about this group? Oh, so annoying, but it, but useful too. Um, but I do find myself, my position in life when I'm navigating things is how can I understand this?

Steph Barron Hall: 48:42

Yeah.

Christina W: 48:43

And it is a desire, that is how I make myself feel safe, like when I understand I feel safe.

Steph Barron Hall: 48:50

Mm hmm.

Christina W: 48:50

And then, that's when I realized that more than, I want to feel safe overall. I want to feel sure, and I want to feel certain. I feel like when I realized the core desire language, was thinking about it. It might have even been you when you were posting about like, how would you reword.

Steph Barron Hall: 49:10

Worst case scenario.

Christina W: 49:11

yeah, yeah, worst

Steph Barron Hall: 49:12

The core fear.

Christina W: 49:13

Yeah, the core fear. I found that so interesting when, oh, I think one of the sixes was saying certainty because that's, that's it. It's not just like, oh, I want to feel safe and I want to belong. It's, I want to feel certain. I have to feel certain to feel safe. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 49:28

I think it's so elusive, um, because it's like perfectionism too, right? Like, the closer you get, the further away it is, um. And I'm curious if like, even when you do get to that point of like, I understand, like it's official. I got it. I understand. Does that feel safe?

Christina W: 49:49

No. no. and that's what I had to come to terms with is when, again, my desire to understand is what led me to the Enneagram. It's what led me to, um, Getting the diagnoses that I'd never had in my childhood and like young adult life. It like that drive led me to find a lot of certainty. Like when I got those diagnoses, it was like, okay, I, cause originally I was diagnosed with, other things that I just were like, I really, I think it's more than this and again, so like that desire to understand led me to actual answers, but once I know, There's always something. There's always something, whether it's still related in that same vein, or I find something else to not understand and like need, it's like, I have to have certainty in my mind, in every area of my life to feel safe and the brief moments where I've felt certain about X, Y, and Z. Um, that's when I've realized like, Oh, this is a certainty alone. Doesn't make me feel safe. and it might never make me feel safe, because sometimes you have all the answers and you could still be in an unsafe environment. You could still not under, that's a really hard thing for me to navigate is when I know someone understands and they're choosing to either make people feel unsafe or choose things that don't reflect that understanding. And I feel that way about myself too. And so it just kind of, I just started having to unpack, like, how do I build safety for and what does safety actually look like and what if safety isn't always, like, again, how am I defining safety? I'm defining it as certainty. Right? So it's like, yeah, it just kind of reconciling that certainty doesn't always equal safety and having to figure out, okay. I have to feel, I think that was the ultimate end was the distress I'm avoiding or the pain I'm avoiding by seeking certainty, similarly to like, when we say a seven like travels across the globe and it's like going on these crazy adventures, but they're little passport, whatever it is like that stereotypical view of sevens of just like running away. It's like the pain follows you. The same thing is for me of as a mind type of just like, it doesn't. I could be the most certain about anything, but that didn't make my pain go away. It didn't make my heart go away. It didn't make, even when I got the diagnoses, the correct one, it was like the grief of living with something I didn't, that deeply affected my life, but not knowing that this is what the, like that grief didn't go away.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:02

Yeah.

Christina W: 53:03

I think at the end of the day it was just, I gotta feel. I gotta actually feel to get where I think I'm trying to go, I guess. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:14

terrifying that would be as well, because I think for a lot of sixes, yeah. Everything you do is organized to not feel fear. And so then you confront it head on and it's like, Oh my gosh, now it's all right there.

Christina W: 53:27

Yeah. Fear, and I think too, and I don't want to speak for every six, but for me too, it's, it's almost not even fear, but distress. Like, I will do anything, literally anything, to avoid the feeling of distress. Anything. Um, even the fear of being in distress, that alone will, yeah, like, dis which maybe I know fives, like, as well, like, the feeling of comfort and having what they need, not being taken from them in some way, like, I've noticed with fives in my life, but just reading about fives too, like, the, the My husband for a little bit had thought he was a five. So we're like reading a lot about it to figure it out. And a lot of the five language specifically that Beatrice Chestnut was using was like, you're protecting what you have almost, it's like you will sacrifice maybe even getting something better or more abundant because you don't want to lose. This thing that you have and I feel like that the discomfort that could come for that is where I also see the wing five Tangled into this into organizing my life to avoid fear. It's also Don't want to feel like yeah. Yeah

Steph Barron Hall: 54:50

like that rug pull

Christina W: 54:51

yeah. Oh my gosh feeling intruded upon. Oh no, but not even just like oh someone Walked into the room when I was it's not even that it's like this Yeah, it's that feeling of like this is what do you mean? Like I don't know just intrusion in any way feels so which is interesting because and I guess that's why maybe i'm not Well, I don't know. Um I feel like we can Think about fives in a more complex way, maybe but i'm I wouldn't even consider myself a private person like i'm very Open But I say that in my mind I'm open, right? I say that. I have been told before, too, that like, we got no clue what's going on. So, I don't know. It just depends. The five and the six and the five are, they're having a good time together.

Steph Barron Hall: 55:52

yeah, and I think that I have observed, uh, self prez sixes, being more private, like a little bit more sensitive about that. I've also seen five say, oh, I don't mind personal questions, as long as you don't like ask what type of book I'm reading. And then I'm like, wait, what? That's like a small talk to me. Um, and so I think there's like that different threshold for what feels like a personal question.

Christina W: 56:15

Ooh, oh my gosh. Wow, I relate to that. I relate to that. That's so interesting. Because that's why I feel like I'm open, too. Because it's like, if you ask me anything, but if you do ask me something probably that seems more small talky, um, I'm a lot more comfortable now sharing. Stuff like that, but it definitely took a while. Um, but as like with my sixth self, I love I'm such a fan of things. I love feeling a part of the group um I it is such a blessing that I did not discover k pop in high school. Oh my gosh the level of loyalty I have to the things that I love and like being a fan of things, that would have destroyed me in high school. It would have probably changed the trajectory of my life. But, now I've realized that sharing that information, again, that might be hard of like, what I'm reading, what I'm watching, or whatever, is how I participate and feel connected and I feel like that always trumps me not sharing. It's like, I'm uncomfortable that you asked me that, but I also need to talk about it. So

Steph Barron Hall: 57:29

Yeah. Well, I'm so glad to hear you say that because I'm about to ask you about what you're reading

Christina W: 57:34

yeah. Um,

Steph Barron Hall: 57:36

So tell me about a book that has helped you refreshed you or shaped you in the last year.

Christina W: 57:41

Yeah. Two books came to mind. so right before. The new year I read and finished Little Women

Steph Barron Hall: 57:53

Mm

Christina W: 57:54

the first time, or I think I read the first, cause technically it's like two books in one. And I think when I was younger, I just read the first one. So I hadn't read like the full story. that sent me on a whole rabbit hole of who Louisa May Alcott was. And like, I, the way. Not only her writing was super inspiring to me and just made me feel so much, but the way, what has stuck with me the most about this book was how genius she is, like, and was, and how ahead of her time she was. so jarring when you read it, that like, the things that she was navigating through and expressing through this story of the March Sisters. I don't know, it's like the book itself impacted me, but then her as an author and like the way that she wrote it and the whole journey of it has just been, it really, it definitely refreshed me and probably is one of my favorite books of all time now. Um, and then my only five star read of this year so far. Has been, which I'm so late to this train, but tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin. Um, that book, it's just such a beautiful story. And I love, also, I love video games. So it was like right in my niche of just like

Steph Barron Hall: 59:26

Yeah.

Christina W: 59:27

gaming, literature, girl who feels different, boy who feels different, other friend, who's perfect in any every way like I don't know the whole how she the details in that story, um I don't always love a book that makes me cry. I have to be in a very specific mood. Um But I would allow that book to Assault me to tears in any way I think what's really stuck with me is the last um I was reading some, like, the concluding chapter where there's like a lot of summarization going on and reflection. I was reading it out loud to my husband after too and I just, it was like, uh, just so beautiful. I, I don't know. It was so good. Um, I'm currently reading Once Upon a Broken Heart, which is a fun little fantasy dark Cinderella retelling.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:29

Oh fun.

Christina W: 1:00:31

Yeah, I'm, I'm, We have a lot of construction going on in our house right now, so I'm in the escapism

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:40

Yeah, for sure.

Christina W: 1:00:41

being a princess in a castle, for

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:43

so. That's amazing. Okay. Tell me about a piece of advice that has really stuck with you.

Christina W: 1:00:50

Yeah, um, I had to think about this one, um, but I think, um, One of the biggest pieces of advice I was given very casually, someone just like said it to me one day, I think while I was in high school, um, but just, I was talking about something that I wasn't sure about or something that I didn't know if I wanted to do. And, the person just in like, again, very casually was just like, why don't you go afraid? And that phrase, go afraid, has definitely been a driving force for me ever since, because Not just as a six, but as a human, there's a chance that there's a lot of things where I will feel fear. Um, I felt fear releasing my first book. I felt fear having a hard conversation with someone. I felt fear, like it just, that phrase applies to anything that you would feel uncomfortable doing and just, I don't know, it's definitely motivated, motivated me to be like, I can't wait for the fear to subside. I can't wait. Always for sometimes you just do have to go go afraid. Um, yeah

Steph Barron Hall: 1:02:04

Yeah. That's such good advice. I mean, like you said, for any type, but especially for a six and you didn't even know it yet.

Christina W: 1:02:11

I know I was like all these people It's so interesting when some people can just truly see right through Which is a blessing such a huge blessing whoever if you are that person We need you. We need you.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:02:30

yeah, well, tell us where we can find you, and then we're going to have you back on to talk a little bit more about some practical things.

Christina W: 1:02:38

Yes. Um, thank you for having me on. Um, I'm so, I had so much fun. Um, and this was such a great conversation. Um, I can be found primarily on Instagram at Christina S. Wilcox. Um, it's where I do most of my posts about the Enneagram or mental health or you name it. Um, I do have a new book coming out in July, which is very exciting. If you follow me on Instagram, you'll be seeing the cover of it very soon. Um, I know I get to leak, leak my cover, which is so fun. Um, but besides that, um, I do have other social media channels that, um, as I mentioned at the beginning, I still work like nine to five life. Um, so keeping up with other channels can be a guess, but if you wanna live for the. surprise of maybe seeing me somewhere else. Um, I also have a podcast, um, that I'm currently, um, revamping, um, that will hopefully, the first re episode will come out in a couple, um, weeks. Um, it's called Genuinely Care About You. And it is not specifically about Danny Graham. It's a lot of, um, more mental health related, but I also have a lot of fun. More essay style podcasts planned about things I care about. Um, so you can find me there. And then also on YouTube, I do have a YouTube channel for both the podcast and myself with the same at, um, and that is also something I'm trying to, um, make time for. So again, if you want to be surprised when I upload and be like, wow, she did it. You can follow those as well, but primarily Instagram. Mm

Steph Barron Hall: 1:04:46

YouTube, is it Christina's Wilcox?

Christina W: 1:04:49

hmm. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:04:51

Great. Well, thanks so much for joining me. This was so

Christina W: 1:04:54

I know. It was so fun. Thank you for having me, and I'm excited to come back.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:04:58

Of course. Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify