Brian: 1:48

the Enneagram was so different because it got underneath all of that and it said, this is why you do what you do. And then that for me changed everything because once I got underneath the behaviors to the motivations and recognized, it's not just that you treat people this way or that you have perfectionist tendencies or that you show up and you tend to withdraw in this, you know, whatever it is, it was like you do all these things because you have a need for. Or because you're chasing after this thing or because you're struggling with. And I was just like, that makes so much more sense. And it helped me to become like, it was a quantum leap in awareness of uncovering and getting to the root of all of those behaviors for me. That really just made such a huge difference.

2:41

Welcome to any REM in real life, a podcast where we explore how to apply our Instagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host Steph Barron hall. And on today's episode, I am talking with Brian Lee. Brian is a pastor, coach and speaker, and as a survival of spiritual abuse and religious trauma, he's spent his time since leaving vocational ministry in 2021, working to provide recovery and resources. We're fellow victims and survivors. In 2023, he created and founded, broken to beloved a nonprofit organization that exists to help other victims and survivors through its annual summit and seasonal cohorts. While also providing trauma awareness and safeguarding practices to pastors, leaders and churches. You can connect with Brian at broken to beloved.org or at broken to beloved on Instagram. And of course, as always, those links will be in the show notes. So on today's episode, I really appreciated my opportunity to talk with Brian about what it's like to be a type one and how he saw those patterns showing up in his life, growing up and feeling like one singular mistake can lead to losing everything and. I'm not a type one, but I share a little bit of similarity in our upbringing with Brian. So, I really resonated with that description. And so I really appreciated him bringing that to light. And he talked a little bit about why he chose the Instagram versus some of the other systems that he's very familiar with. We also talked about some of the damaging practices that we've both witnessed, um, being a part of religious spaces and how sometimes spiritual bypass, which is neglecting psychological work, and opting only for like spiritual understanding and then teaching. And toxic positivity, both perpetuate harmful and abusive spaces, especially when those in power are not willing to look at their own shortcomings. Brian also talks about a little bit of how he sees type four and type seven, which are his arrow points show up in his life. And how he's been moving toward a path of transformation through shifting some of his natural type one patterns. And he still brings his same awareness and excellence and integrity to all of the work that he does now, um, which are some of those higher type one traits that we can all appreciate. This was a rich conversation. And as I've discussed before, when I talk with people who are in these religious spaces, especially talking about really religious trauma, Um, this is not an indictment at all against any one particular religious belief. But more. So I want to open a conversation up for people who are questioning and wondering, and have legitimate concerns about the way that some leaders use their power and also wanting to bring more awareness to The way that harm is perpetuated throughout these spaces when there is such a concentration of power. So Brian's work is about bringing awareness to that as well as helping us heal. Through the process of leaving behind some of those spaces that were harmful and making sure that we're changing those to protect people in the future. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Brian Lee.

Steph Barron Hall: 5:40

Well, Brian, welcome to the podcast.

Brian: 5:42

Thanks. Thanks for having me.

Steph Barron Hall: 5:44

Of course. I'm excited to talk with you about what it's like to be a one. Um, so I know that we'll have a lot of insights from you today. Um, but first I'd love to hear a little bit more about your background. What got you started with the Enneagram? Where do you come from? Tell us everything.

Brian: 6:02

Where do I come from? I come from, oh boy, that could go back really far. Uh, I come from an immigrant family. I'm a first generation Korean American from parents who immigrated separately, um, from Korea, met here in the States, had me and my two sisters, grew up in very rural, suburban, and racist, uh, So just dealing with that, basically my entire school life, ran away to college and never went back to those neighborhoods, basically, um, and then spent the rest of my young adult life trying to figure out who the heck I am and where do I fit in? Right? So for me, learning the Enneagram was a huge window window into, Oh, this is why I do what I do. I also grew up as a pastor's kid. Um, In a Korean church, which tend to be extremely honor driven, very performance oriented of appearances mean a lot. Um, and so I felt an enormous sense of pressure on my shoulders to be the perfect kid anyway, so you can already tell I'm a one. Um, and to set, and I was constantly told that I'm supposed to set the example for basically all the other kids in the church. That's really fair, right? Um, and so for me learning about the Enneagram, which wasn't until I was well into my late thirties, probably, um, having this incredible aha moment of, Oh, this makes so much more sense. And I never realized. As dumb as it sounds now, but not everyone sees the world the way I do, which also makes sense when people react to me just trying to help them and they tell me, Oh, you're so arrogant, or you think, you know, everything, or why does everything have to be done your way? Um, and for me, it was literally a life changing moment. Um, I had also been through some really toxic situations at that point, and just easy to paint myself as the victim and other people's as abusers. Um, and it gave me a little bit more empathy and compassion for them. It didn't make any of what they did right. But I also understood where they were coming from when they made the choices they did. Um, so it has been an incredible tool for me. Mm-Hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 8:21

yeah, yeah. It sounds like it. And I think, Hearing just even about like that desire to help people and then it feels different than that from, from other people. I think that that's really helpful because I've heard other ones express that before and how challenging it can be when you recognize, Oh, actually people are saying that's not helpful.

Brian: 8:39

Yeah. I, it's, it's gotten me in trouble my entire life, because, you know, my inner critic is constantly yelling at me and saying, that should have been better. And I'm, I'm. honestly trying to fix things and making things better, genuinely trying to improve things. And so it always took me by surprise when someone doesn't want that feedback of, Oh, that was wrong. You might want to fix it. And they take it as you're stupid. And I just want to point out all your mistakes. It's like, no, that's not what I meant at all.

Steph Barron Hall: 9:08

Yeah. Yeah. What was it like to recognize, Oh, people are taking this differently.

Brian: 9:15

I made a lot of phone calls and sent a lot of text messages just to apologize. was a huge wake up call that not everyone cares about getting things right all the time. I just genuinely had no idea. I was like, how do you live without that kind of pressure? I didn't know I could do that.

Steph Barron Hall: 9:32

Yeah.

Brian: 9:33

And so it's also been a huge sense of freedom, um, from my own self imposed weight that I put on myself, this pressure that no one asked of me, except for me. Um, and so, Getting to recognize and realize that most people don't care about this, and they don't even expect it of me, and there's a room for a lot of grace, um, and there's room to make mistakes, and it's going to be okay if you make a mistake, and life will go on, and you'll learn from it, and it'll be better. And that was a real paradigm shift for me in Working and living and doing relationships, all of the above, because all of a sudden this huge weight is taken off of your shoulders and it feels like I can actually breathe, um, and not be afraid that if I make a mistake, I'm going to lose everything. Cause that's really what it felt like.

Steph Barron Hall: 10:28

Yeah. Yeah. And that's so anxiety provoking too. And it's like, Oh, it makes sense why you're walking around with so much tension all the time.

Brian: 10:36

It does. Yeah, it is anxiety provoking. And I don't know that I ever really thought of it that way, but it definitely feels that way. Mm

Steph Barron Hall: 10:43

Mm hmm. Um, I'm curious about, I know that you have experience with a lot of different types of these systems, like different personality type systems. Um, and I'm wondering if you can share a little bit about those and what makes the Enneagram different for you.

Brian: 10:58

Oh, man. Um, yeah, I got my start with personality assessments and all these kinds of systems, um, in college when I took the Myers Briggs. Which I think most people take when they're younger. Um, so you sit down and you take that enormous multiple choice test, and they come back and your facilitator gives you the report, and it's like, oh, I'm an INTJ. Well, what the heck does that mean? And then you read it, and it's like, oh, this thing's reading my mail. This is cool.

Steph Barron Hall: 11:26

Mm hmm.

Brian: 11:27

And then beyond that, you don't really know what to do with it. Except that you travel with this group of people who you took the test with because you're going to be on a team together and then you spend the rest of the year arguing about what is introverted mean and what is extroverted mean. And that was kind of the extent of it, right? No one wants to agree on what these terms mean. Or now that we have this combination of letters, what do I do with it? What does it mean for our interactions with each other? Um, And, you know, we sat down for a good two hours or more just kind of breaking down. Okay, so this is what this means and this is how you're going to interact. Okay, cool. But now what? Um, but it started me on this whole path of, I didn't know I could learn about myself in this kind of a way. And it was a waking up to not just coasting through life, but starting to make active choices that were a little more conscious and less personality driven. Um, And then I ended up in two back to back environments that were extremely toxic, um, and recognizing and seeing these leaders who would leave a wake of destruction behind them. And I was often one of the casualties, which is why I left both of those places, and kind of making a vow to myself when I saw their behavior, and recognize that most of it is happening because they are completely self unaware of their effect on other people, of how they treat people. People or do work. And so I kind of made a vow to myself. It's like, I need to learn as much as I can about myself. So I don't become one of those kinds of leaders. And so Myers Briggs, Berkman, Colby, StrengthsFinders, DISC, I've done most of them and same, it's a combination of letters or numbers or scores, and you kind of read a little bit, it's like, okay, yeah, that describes a lot. To the best of my understanding, and I'm not certified in any of them, so whatever, but they all describe what I do. I, I kind of already know what I do.

Steph Barron Hall: 13:29

Sure.

Brian: 13:30

And the Enneagram was so different because it got underneath all of that and it said, this is why you do what you do. And then that for me changed everything because once I got underneath the behaviors to the motivations and recognized, it's not just that you treat people this way or that you have perfectionist tendencies or that you show up and you tend to withdraw in this, you know, whatever it is, it was like you do all these things because you have a need for. Or because you're chasing after this thing or because you're struggling with. And I was just like, that makes so much more sense. And it helped me to become like, it was a quantum leap in awareness of uncovering and getting to the root of all of those behaviors for me. That really just made such a huge difference.

Steph Barron Hall: 14:17

Mm hmm. Yeah. And it really cuts straight to the heart. And I think that that can be something I love about it and hate about it. Um, But with what you're saying about those work environments that were so difficult, um, I think that's really important to recognize because, uh, recently I had, uh, Dr. Meg Errol on the podcast. Her book is called tiny T traumas. And she talked about, um, tiny T traumas, like small T traumas. Why, you know, Things can be traumatic to us and how, and in her book, she talks a lot about how, um, we overemphasize the role of childhood in, um, trauma in our lives. And sometimes there are other times in life that we experience trauma that is really difficult. Um, but we overlook it because we're like, well, that I was an adult, like it's fine. Um, but workplaces like that can have that impact as well. Um, and I think that's really important to give space for.

Brian: 15:15

Yeah, absolutely. And that's, that's, that's a good point. That's the nature of trauma, and I don't know that there's a single one of us who makes our way through life without experiencing some kind of trauma. So, a lot of the work that I do has to do with little t and big T trauma, and the idea that it's not the fact that you'll ever be able to avoid it, but do you know what to do once it happens? Do you know how to process it or metabolize it and get it out of your system so that you don't carry it with you for the rest of your life? Right. And for me, the Enneagram was such a helpful tool and still is a helpful tool when I'm, you know, working with other people or, you know, doing a consultation or coaching someone individually, or doing a team workshop. It's like, if you can become aware of all these things that you carry with you and cut straight to the heart of the issue to recognize maybe why were you traumatized or how were you traumatized, whether or not it was your fault. And most of the time. Trauma is never your fault. Neither is abuse, right? It's something that happened to you, but it is something that you're going to have to carry and deal with. So how can you dig underneath all the stuff that you carry with you everywhere you go and get to the point of the issues so that you can learn how to manage it or move through it? We don't ever get past it or get around it. You just have to, you have to go through it. Um, and learning how to do all of those things so that we can move forward in a more whole and healthy way.

Steph Barron Hall: 16:42

I'm wondering if you can share a little bit more about the type of work that you do, um, just to give us a little bit more context for this, um, so that we can kind of understand.

Brian: 16:52

Sure. So I run a nonprofit, uh, 501 C3 called Broken to Beloved, and we specifically focus on offering resources for recovery, safeguarding, and awareness of spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and church harm, which a lot of people just call church hurt. Um, and I think that minimizes what's actually happened to people. So we call it church harm. Um, you know, there's On good days, there's spiritual malpractice where someone's just not being smart or wise about how they say something or do something. And on worst days, it's just straight out spiritual abuse, whether it's sexual abuse, emotional, physical, verbal, financial. Like there's so many different versions of how people have been treated in the church, which is supposedly a place to find safety and belonging and healing and all these wonderful things and end up with places. Usually because there are people who are unaware of themselves, who are going to use people to their own advantage and twist or manipulate, whether it's scripture or a prayer or something else, to serve their own needs rather than to meet someone else's. Um, and, you know, I mean, we've been hearing how many stories in the last couple of years of all these people in places that are just doing incredible harm. Um, so we exist to help people coming out of those spaces. To find healing and wholeness, uh, we offer cohorts, we run an annual summit, we do monthly calls, I do individual coaching, and then we're also starting to move into that awareness and safeguarding space where we go into churches or meet with teams to teach them how to become trauma informed and trauma aware, set up safeguarding practices for reporting, for dealing with, you know, for all these different things, so. Mm hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:39

Yeah, it sounds, it's just so necessary. Um, and I spent most of my life in, um, various churches and some healthier than others, of course, um, as churches are. Um, but In the end, it's people are people. And, um, I think it is really challenging when we don't understand our own motivations. And something I've just observed in a lot of church spaces is this, and actually this is in any sort of these types of communities that's like growth oriented. Um, there is like the spiritual bypassing aspect where people aren't doing the psychological work that they need to do, which in, in my Enneagram training, that's a big part of what we talk about. But, um, Doing therapy and spiritual direction or whatever. So having these things go hand in hand. Um, but these, a lot of the time pastors raised to these high heights and. They like, Oh, I don't need therapy. I've got Jesus. And it's like, Whoa,

Brian: 19:42

Mm hmm. Yep.

Steph Barron Hall: 19:43

let's roll that back for a second.

Brian: 19:46

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 19:47

How do you navigate that?

Brian: 19:51

Very carefully. Um, you know, in, in doing this kind of recovery work or coaching work or whatever it is, one of the harder lessons that I've learned is you can't help anyone who doesn't want it. And you also can't help anyone who doesn't recognize that they need it. Um, and that's the hardest part with these pastors or leaders or people in these spaces who just think they have it all together or think that they have all the answers or think that, um, You know, you're just grieving or you're hurting because you're not praying enough, or you didn't do this enough or whatever it is, and that's that same spiritual bypassing, like you're talking about, um, and, or, you know, I use the term toxic positivity a lot, that churches just don't have a theology of suffering or of grief or making space for all these things that we need to process all this stuff that comes with life. Right.

Steph Barron Hall: 20:49

Yeah, we do. And I, um, I've also seen sometimes like the, uh, poverty gospel as opposed to the prosperity gospel, um, where it's like, if anything's going well for you, then you're not living faithfully. And that also sucks.

Brian: 21:07

Yeah, it really does. It really does. There's just so much that gets twisted. And I don't know why. I don't want to try to sit here and think of a reason why. It just, that's just what happens when people are unaware of themselves and don't recognize that I'm doing these things to fulfill my own needs and get my needs met rather than operating out of a fulfillment of I'm already So I don't need my job, my title, my congregation, these people to take care of all of this stuff for me, right? And so that's, again, why the Enneagram has been so helpful for me is like, my identity doesn't have to keep shifting based on the people around me or the expectations on me or what my job is. Should I have to leave it for any reason? Um, if you can be grounded and know who you are, man, does that change the way you do things?

Steph Barron Hall: 22:03

Yeah. How have, have you seen your type show up in the way that you do all of this work or even in just in your life, um, more broadly? Yeah.

Brian: 22:15

what the Enneagram was, my type showed up all the time. In the worst ways possible. Um, like we, like I mentioned earlier, it's just all of those perfectionistic tendencies and the need to fix in quotes, um, myself and everyone around me and point out all the mistakes that are jumping off the page at me. Um, the constant desire that will never be fulfilled to just reform and improve. Absolutely everything that I possibly can and spend way too long on a project because this slide doesn't look right. And I need to just adjust this thing by a little bit or pick on whatever it is. And then you compound those things when you are no longer a student and now you're working a job and you have people reporting to you and you are being an absolute a hole because they didn't meet your standards, which are completely unrealistic. Um, and just treating people like trash. Because they didn't do what you never even asked for, you just expected it, that they should know, um, and, and recognizing and coming to terms with the fact that the terms arrogant and conceited and know it all and judgmental and overly critical were all absolutely true. I mean, that showed up all the time and, you know, the, the sad part of it is, As a one that that's all being put on me first, and the only reason anyone else around me experiences it is it because it was an overload and it had to come out sideways somewhere else because I could no longer carry it by myself. And so the way I see it show up today, once I learned about my type and what it meant and how. I was being perceived and felt by other people around me After making a lot of amends and apologies. It's like I was real jerk and I'm very sorry um It's you know, Suzanne Stabile talks a lot about the work is never to repress something because that's just really not possible But to bring up all the other things but we can manage What we notice, um, so it's a lot more management of those tendencies, um, and recognizing when something is good enough to call done and it's never going to be perfect. So when is it good enough to stop working on it? Having way more grace for myself, which then allows me to have grace for other people. It's like, Hey, that's yeah, I get it. You tried and you know what? Your try was good enough. And let's just leave it at that. It's let's just call it done. Um, for me, I primarily work by myself now, so it's also learning those healthy connections to both four and seven to recognize when I need a break and just go vent or find an escape hatch somewhere to recognize when I need to sit with my feelings for a little bit. Or to be able to express the creativity part of it, rather than just the structured, Part of life that I tend towards. Um, it's being a lot more flexible and less rigid. And I think that's the gift of the Enneagram is once you have that awareness of yourself to release yourself from the expectation that this is who you're supposed to be, or it's who you're condemned to be for the rest of your life.

Steph Barron Hall: 25:43

Yeah.

Brian: 25:44

It's, Hey, this is the way that you are, because this is what you're looking for. And when you realize that you actually already have these things, you can choose to live really differently. And so look at all these other resources you have around you with four and seven and nine and two, and all these other things that you could be because they're available and they're right there. And you don't have to be a jerk all the time. And you can truly make the world a better place without all the extra judgment and shame.

Steph Barron Hall: 26:14

Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think I, I appreciate that about the Enneagram too. It's like, you don't have connection to types that are going to cause you to double down on some of those bad behaviors, like three or eight. Like I think a lot of the time, I know when I think back of my early days as a leader and being like, well, if you're not falling over dead at the end of the day, you haven't worked hard yet. You know, like, That's horrible. Um, I, I never said that, but I know that that's how I felt and how I thought about things. Um, and I think now I see things totally differently to the point where my assistant is like, Oh, I'm going to be on vacation. But like, I'll be, and I'm like, absolutely not. I better not see you in the inbox. I better not see,

Brian: 26:58

Mm

Steph Barron Hall: 26:58

you know, um, because I think that's so important for us to have that space. Um, but it's taken some time and I think it's You know, 1 thing to do it for somebody else, and then another thing entirely to do that for myself. Right? Um, but, you know, 9 and 2 don't have that connection, right? Where, you know, 9 can't just like, oh, I'll just like, hang out over at 2, um, 9's have those resources that are going to get them out of that headspace of, um, kind of morphing to be whatever other people want from them. Um, and I really appreciate that about the Enneagram. And I think that is one of the things that kind of makes this system a little bit unique versus, you know, some of the other ones, like you mentioned earlier, like even, um, DISC or StrengthsFinder, those sorts of things. Um, but I also am curious what things changed for you, um, after you sent those amends, to people, but how did you, like, what was it like for you to first be like, okay, I'm not going to do this thing anymore. I'm not going to do it this way. Did it take a long time to change that habit or? Yeah.

Brian: 28:11

no. Um, Some of it was just immediate because I recognized how much I had been hurting the people around me. With my own expectations. Um, so that changed pretty quickly. Um, you know, when you're leading teams of people and you're just demanding perfection every time that is not sustainable or achievable. Um, I just went to most, you know, sometimes you verbalize it and sometimes you just shift how you do it. Um, for a few individuals I verbalized, it's like, Hey, I just want you to know, I. learned this thing and I just realized that this is the way I've been doing life and I've been expecting it of everyone around me and that is wrong and I'm sorry. Larger teams that don't need that level of or haven't experienced that level. It's just shifting the way that I communicate expectations. It's shifting the way that I communicate what's necessary versus what is what would be nice. Right? Um, Most of it is just me lowering my standards, which sounds awful in some ways, um, but it's just so much more realistic and it's so much more freeing and gives so much more room and margin for a lot of other things like relationships. Um, I think that was a big point of transformation for me was just in knowing how to do relationships so much better. Because when I wasn't stuck in my way of seeing things and doing things, and then learning about the other types, um, you know, I mentioned I grew up in an immigrant family, and it's like, when you can learn to communicate in someone else's language, and the way that they see and hear and think, it changes a lot. And so, recognizing it's like, hey, we don't see things the same way, And not only is that not bad, it's actually really good and necessary for me and for you, because we're gonna bring different gifts to the table. So, instead of me just telling you how I want it done, what would be helpful to you? Or, when I come to you with feedback, what would be more, like, what would be the most helpful way for you to receive that? Um, if it's personal relationships, it's just, again, recognizing that I don't need to get my way all the time. And I don't need to be right about everything, because most of the time, it's not important at all. And a phrase that my wife uses with me, a lot. She hasn't said it lately, which I'm thankful for because she hasn't needed to, I think. Um, is just, is that really a hill you want to die on? And I'm just like, some, every once in a while it is, but most of the time it just doesn't matter. It's like, why, why am I just sticking to this thing? Why are these principles, these fake principles that I've made up so important to me? That I'm going to bomb a relationship or a friendship over. Um, and that kind of a realization is huge. And I want to go back to what you said about why the Enneagram is so unique and great compared to some of these other tools. And I recognize that while you were saying it is like, when we have access to these other types and numbers that normally don't have a connection. Um, I think that is another really unique gift because these other assessments like DISC. So I'm a high C with a low, this, and it's like, and this is you for the rest of your life. And it will never change. And you can't ever learn how to grow in this thing or that thing where it's like, or if you're in this corner or box of the Myers Briggs, it's like, sure, it might adjust a little over time or over your lifetime, but really, this is just who you're going to be forever. And so people, you know, push back against the Enneagram saying, I don't want to be put in a box. You know, and Ian always famously quote quoted, like you. Um, with all these other personality assessments and tools that I've used and taken, it always has this sense of being boxed into this thing without room for growth or to change, or it's like, these are my top five strengths and okay, let's just double down on those and not worry about the rest. And the Enneagram gives you so much room and flexibility to grow in so many different areas. Um, as you become aware of them and as you learn how to pull from them as resources. And I think that just makes us so much more whole and complete.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:46

Yeah. I totally agree and I think one of the things that I like about it too is, um, well, I think my bent is actually to look at the negative, right? Is to look at, um, how can I fix myself? How can I improve myself? I know that I'm terrible. Um, I think when you're raised evangelical, that is a message that you adapt and

Brian: 33:09

It is.

Steph Barron Hall: 33:10

Um, and so when I first was introduced to it, I was like, Oh yeah, this is going to tell me how much I suck. Um, and that felt cathartic, right? And, and I truly, it was awful actually. Like I felt so exposed, um, as a three. And I think that a lot of threes, um, do feel that way. But I Also liked that I was able to have this growth process and with Myers Briggs, for example, I've been professionally typed as an ENTJ, okay? Um, ENTJs are, uh, I quickly learned famously, not awesome, um, in the sense that they are known to be like, Uh, Adam Newman from WeWork, for example, like they can be very manipulative. They can be very cunning. Um, very selfish. And that was really hard for me because, um, I can see some of those things in myself. And also I think that I genuinely want to help people and I want to be there for people. And I am really compassionate. Um, and, you know, honestly, sometimes I'm not, um, but, but I think that. It was so hard for me knowing that. And then when people ask, they're like, Oh, you know, you must be an asshole. Like, that's like, that's such a bad experience. I mean, sometimes people say that about threes as well. Um, but, uh, what I like about the process with the Enneagram is, um, and when I, you know, work with groups of people with it in corporate, it's really important for me to say, Hey, none of these types are bad. And actually like we all. Are needed and necessary. Um, but we just want to figure out how to work together better.

Brian: 34:59

hmm. Yep. I love that part of it. Um, and I've been part of so many corporate retreats, staff retreats, whatever it is, where they pick their next tool of choice and you sit in the room and you try to figure out what everyone else is, whatever is. I feel like you just so rarely hear how they're meant to work together.

Steph Barron Hall: 35:22

Yeah.

Brian: 35:27

um, with the Enneagram, it's like, here's how you bring gifts to each other. Let's take a look at your team diagram and notice where the holes are. So what do you think that means for you? Or where are your strengths? Where are you kind of stacked? And what is that going to mean for you as a team? Let's look at your leadership team and what that looks like. And so what does that mean for your team? And just like being able to approach it. In that holistic kind of a way that brings everyone together and says, look, none of us are alone in this, none of us function alone, even when you think you do, um, and, you know, so many of us, when we learn about our type, it does feel like a punch to the gut and it is really easy to, to pick out or recognize the parts of us that we really just don't like.

Steph Barron Hall: 36:13

Yeah.

Brian: 36:14

at the same time, there are just so many beautiful things and gifts and strengths that each type brings, um, when they become aware of them or when they're functioning from a healthy place.

Steph Barron Hall: 36:28

Yeah. And I, I do actually think that that is a bit of, of this that gets lost. Um, sometimes people, um, are like, Oh, I just want my ego and my personality to be gone. Um, and I I've fallen into that trap too. And I really was super three about it, right. Super intense, super like laser focused on like, Absolving my, my life of any three qualities in

Brian: 36:57

Hmm. Yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 37:00

anything like that, which actually backfires because, um, I think that all of us want some sense of, of meaning and productivity in the sense that we're like part of something in life. Um, and it's really unhelpful for my particular psychology to, to feel like ineffectual, um, And I think it's helpful for me to not think that's the only thing I can do, but like, I love contributing to like the world. Right. Um,

Brian: 37:30

course.

Steph Barron Hall: 37:31

and I'm curious, how do you navigate that with teams? Like if they have, um, or, or even other people that you're working with, like if they have that assumption, like I am all bad, how do you navigate that?

Brian: 37:48

Um, I like to ask them why they think that. Um, and kind of start uncovering the layers of where that narrative came from. Um, Because like we met, like I'm mostly coming in and out of evangelical spaces and so much of it is shame based. It's like, well, I'm bad because I was told I am. And it's like, well, I'm sorry you were told that. And maybe you have a few bad qualities here and there, but I like to believe that you're actually inherently good. And especially coming out of a lot of reformed theology spaces, they operate A lot of people call worm theology, which is that we are all but lowly worms that are wretched and depraved and in need of a savior. It's like, Okay, but do you have to go so hard and heavy, right? And so I, um, one of our values for Broken to Beloved is that we like to operate on a Genesis one theology rather than a Genesis two theology. And a lot of these churches operate out of Genesis two after the fall. It's like, oh, well, sin entered the world, and so you're born with it, and you're, you need Jesus, and you need these things, and you're wretched and horrible. And so people walk around living their whole lives as if that is their root identity. And they miss this whole opening story of how God created the world, and looked at it, and created people, and said, Very good.

Steph Barron Hall: 39:22

Mm hmm.

Brian: 39:23

that was the original intent. Not worms, not lowly and wretched and depraved, very good and made in his image. And so when people ask that question or to say, Hey, there's just, I'm just all bad. And I just ask, why, why do you think that? Where does that come from? Because here's what I read and here's what I think and believe. And you don't have to believe it, but it's what I think of you. And what does that do for you? And then the Enneagram, like I said, it offers so many gifts. It's like, let's just name a few. Have you ever recognized. This kind of behavior in yourself, or can you think of a moment when you, and when they're able to identify those pieces, like, I need you to hold on to that, because that is also part of who you are. And if that's in there, you can't be all bad.

Steph Barron Hall: 40:13

Yeah. I think even, you know, five years after Nearly five years after leaving, um, one of these churches, it's like still emotional for me to hear that.

Brian: 40:29

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 40:32

Um,

Brian: 40:33

I mean, especially when you've spent an entire lifetime steeped in it, right? For a lot of people.

Steph Barron Hall: 40:40

yeah. Um, I'm curious. So as a social one, you know, one of your, which do you still resonate with the social subtype? Okay. Um, so as a social one, one of the main things that we know that social ones do is, is modeling and like kind of showing other people by their good behavior. Um, how can I be like the pattern or the model for you to approach this? And I'm curious if that has required you to do a lot of work on your own inner critic as you're working with these people who have these beliefs about themselves.

Brian: 41:18

so much work, so much work on the inner critic. And I think, um, you know, one of the things that I teach when I'm working with people either in recovery spaces or coaching spaces or any of them is like, in order to heal, you need to be able to name something. You have to name it before you can heal from it. Um, and I used to love the old show house MD. Um, And he's a diagnostician at Princeton University Hospital. And every week and every episode, some new patient comes in with a mystery, something, and they treat all the symptoms, but until they can actually name the thing that's wrong with this patient, they can't heal them in the proper way. So for me, the inner critic is a major issue and he's, he's there trying to help me. Like really, it's like, he's trying to help me survive. He thinks he's doing the right thing. Um, if anyone has ever done therapy or internal family systems works, it's a part of me, it's one of my managers that just saying, Hey, let's get this together. And so it's that whole nonjudgmental approach to once I'm able to identify and name a thing, try not to judge it, which can be extremely hard for a one, especially, um, but just to say, Hey, inner critic. Thanks, I know what you're trying to do, and you're trying to help me, but I think I've got it from here. And you're actually not helping me at this point, you're holding me back, and you're actually doing harm. and I just need you to take a step back. And if I was unaware of that inner critic, none of that would be possible. Right? Um, and so I recognize as a social one, there is such a strong desire to Set the example or to teach is I love teaching. I love being able to say, Hey, here's an example. Maybe you can follow it. Or let me set up this system or process for you for the good of other people rather than me perfecting myself. I'm actually very, not much a perfectionist about myself and things. It's just the systems and things that affect organizations and the way things run. Um, And so I think that's a big part of it, is the awareness piece, the non judgmental observation, um, and being able to move through it in that kind of a way. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 43:38

and I actually had a friend who is, um, I think she's like level two certified, um, in IFS. She came on the podcast, um, and talked about it. And I think it's just so helpful, especially for people who have a strong inner critic to not just say, Oh, shut up. You know, because I do hear that a lot from ones where they're like, Oh, just, just tell it to shut up. And. That can backfire. Um, and so I really appreciate that approach of, of, um, compassion. Yeah.

Brian: 44:10

shut up approach and it doesn't work because he just talks louder. It's like, well, if you're going to shut me up, I'll just talk louder until you hear me or pay attention to me. Right. And isn't that part of the IFS kind of work? It's like the more we try to repress something or hold it back, the more it wants to show up. So it's like, just go ahead and acknowledge that it's there. And thank you for doing the work. And let me take it from here.

Steph Barron Hall: 44:33

Yeah. It's like co regulating with that part of yourself

Brian: 44:37

It is a little bit. Yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 44:38

is pretty dysregulated. Yeah. Um, yeah, I think that's such a great example. So. When we talked previously and on your website, I noticed that you have mentioned the song one by sleeping at last. And I'm wondering if you can share a bit about that and how that impacted you.

Brian: 45:00

Yeah, that was my entry to the Enneagram. And I don't remember how I came across it other than just being a sleeping at last fan before then. Um, so I think he was teasing something about it and then. I was like, well, what the heck is that thing that he's talking about? And then the song finally drops. And I was sitting in my office at the church, and I just put the song on repeat for about an hour and put my head down and cried to myself, I think. Um, and the line that got me was the whole part of grace requires nothing of you. Or grace requires nothing of me is the way the song goes. And it's, you know, he's singing and telling all these parts of my story. With so much compassion, there was just no judgment in it of you're a terrible person that most of us feel when we learn our type, but it was with so much understanding and compassion of what it's like to be a one. So to hear that story told and then to hear that refrain over and over that graces requires nothing of me because for me. preached at me or talked at me or mentored at me or, you know, whatever at me. It's like, Brian, you just need more grace. And I would sit there at these coffee meetings or lunches, like, yeah, I know, but like how help me. I just don't, I don't get it. I literally don't get it. And that whole idea that, because for me, grace was something to be achieved or earned. I had to do better to get grace. That's just the way I lived. That's what I thought. And so to hear that it required nothing of me, I was like, really, that's it? I don't, and for, for whatever reason, that time it stuck and it took, um, so just listening to that over and over. And I was like, okay, I think I'm starting to get it. And I think I. If I can actually, and again, this is growing up in church, it's being a pastor's kid. At this point, I'm already an ordained minister, and I'm just now understanding the concept of grace. Right? Um, it's not too late for any of us, and You would be arrogant to think that you've got it figured out at any point in your life Because there's always room to grow or to learn something new And for me at that moment it was that idea of grace requires nothing of me And if it really does I can stop trying so hard all the time And burning myself out and taking everyone else in the process with me

Steph Barron Hall: 47:33

Yeah, that's so powerful. And I, um, I love those songs. I actually listened to them again over the weekend. They're just so good. Um,

Brian: 47:42

just so good

Steph Barron Hall: 47:43

and there's something

Brian: 47:44

you listened have you listened to his podcasts about them

Steph Barron Hall: 47:47

Yeah, well, I, I did when, as they were coming out, as they are

Brian: 47:50

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 47:53

Well, actually now that I think of it, I remember him talking about for the type three, how it was like a very, um, kind of scaled back and like stripped down song and, uh, arrangement and how, um, you know, At the time I like didn't understand why,

Brian: 48:12

Mm.

Steph Barron Hall: 48:14

um, but I, now I do because, um, you know, my teachers say that threes are the most emotional type, the heart of the heart center. Um, even though we like to deny the, those emotions most of the time. Um, and so I just have such a different perspective on myself and my type. Um, now.

Brian: 48:35

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 48:35

But I'm wondering if there are some things that you can share with type ones who are maybe engaging with the Enneagram for the first time, or they're kind of processing this, what do they need to know, um,

Brian: 48:50

Mm.

Steph Barron Hall: 48:51

they go down this path?

Brian: 48:55

That feels like a loaded question that probably isn't at all. Um, I think the first thing I would say is whatever it is that you learn about yourself, it's okay. Um, and I've, at our last summit we had a somatic practitioner come on. Because the whole point is to help people, our tagline is to help people move toward healing and wholeness. And she said something that's stuck with me ever since, and it's this idea that the slower you go, the faster you will heal. Take really small steps, and you'll actually heal faster. Um, like I'm in physical therapy right now for my back. Everyone goes to the gym on January 1st, and the first thing everyone wants to do is overdo it. You're like, I'm going to reach my goals, I'm going to do the things, right? And you just overdo it and then you hurt yourself and then you can't move for three days. But if you'll just start small and start slow, everything doesn't have to change at once. You don't have to feel the overbearing weight of being a one or any of the other types for that matter. Um, and just, what is the one thing I can name about myself? to become aware of it, and not judge it, because it's, it's there as a survival mechanism. It's there trying to help me in some kind of way, and it did! up to a point. Right? I got where I am because of what I've been doing, But at some point it's gonna start holding me back, and at some point it's gonna start harming me, and the people around me. So what's just one thing I can name about knowing something about me? That I can pay attention to it when it's happening, so that instead of the habitual, instinctive reactions, I can pause just long enough to choose a thoughtful response instead. Do I have to respond this way? Do I have to say the thing that I always say? Do I have to X, Y, Z? It's like, well, actually, what if I just tried this other thing instead and just start small?

Steph Barron Hall: 51:11

that's such good advice. Um, and I like that analogy with, you know, kind of therapy and everything, um, physical therapy, because My mom is a physical therapist. And so, and I hurt my back. I was like, what, what should I do? She's like, don't try to fix

Brian: 51:28

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 51:30

it be. Um, and I think most of us were like, Oh, let me just like twist or like do all these different things. And, um, that advice I think is, is really useful because it's like, okay, what if I could take a baby step, you know, instead of, um, You know, doing everything and really intense all the time. Um, which some of us do. Um, so that's great advice. okay,

Brian: 52:02

Okay.

Steph Barron Hall: 52:03

let's go. I have two final questions that I ask everyone first. Tell me about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year.

Brian: 52:13

Oh, man. I read a lot of books.

Steph Barron Hall: 52:16

Yeah.

Brian: 52:18

I'll just tell you one of the last ones I read. Um, two of the last ones I just finished, um, are As Long As You Need by J. S. Park, and it's a book on grief. And it's just, the subtitle, I think, is just Permission to Grieve, and he's a trauma one therapist, or trauma, level one trauma center, and he's a chaplain there, so he sees death and loss all the time, and so he outlines lots of different ways that grief presents itself, and lots of different ways that we can deal with it. Because we live in a society that wants to ignore it or push it aside. And especially in evangelical spaces to pretend it doesn't exist because we're just supposed to have the victory all the time, brother, and just pray through it. And if you have grief, you're not really believing, right? And it's like none. Well, no, let's not do that. So it was just such a beautiful gift of. It's okay to be sad about something because you've lost something really important. So how do you honor that memory by grieving? Well, Um, and the other one I just finished is It's Not You by Dr. Romani, um, and it's just a book about narcissism and how to deal with them. And the whole point is, listen, we have enough books that identify narcissism and its traits in these people, and the truth is none of these people will ever come to my office saying, Doc, you gotta help me, I need help, because they're narcissists, they don't think they need the help. This book is for everyone who's ever been harmed by a narcissist. This book And how do you find healing, and how do you deal with the fallout of constantly being gaslit, or talked to, or talked down about, or bending over backwards to, right? Um, and so that was also a really helpful one.

Steph Barron Hall: 54:04

Yeah. Yeah. That sounds like it. Ooh, that's good. Um, okay. So finally, what is one piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Brian: 54:13

Hmm. A lot, but I'll just repeat the one from earlier. It's just, the slower you go, the faster you'll heal.

Steph Barron Hall: 54:19

Yeah, that's really good. I like that. Um, okay. So where can we find you and your work? So I can link it all in the show notes for everyone.

Brian: 54:31

Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Broken to Beloved. The website is just BrokenToBeloved. org. We've got all kinds of programs. We're always looking for support and help, um, and that's where all the places are.

Steph Barron Hall: 54:45

Awesome. I will link

Brian: 54:47

Quick and easy.

Steph Barron Hall: 54:48

Yeah. Um, well, I really appreciate you joining me today and also just the reverence with what you talk about, um, this topic of, of church harm. I think. know, my main coping mechanism with it is like probably more humor. Um, and I just appreciate, uh, your, your thoughtful approach and, um, how you've shared about that today.

Brian: 55:11

Thank you.

Steph Barron Hall: 55:13

Thanks for joining me.

Brian: 55:15

I love being here. Thanks, Steph.

Steph Barron Hall: 55:20

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify