Chris Schoolcraft: 1:47

Yeah, like I like now a part of my work is every time I walk in, I cut all my lights on because there's a five. My natural inclination was to have the least amount of visual stimulation possible. So keep the lights down. Keep it nuanced. Keep the music down. Let's and then be able to handle things. In that kind of range is real, was really helpful. So part of my work is I open up the windows and let the sunshine in. I'm in a bright room now. I'm wearing a bright colored shirt, right? You know, I can't tell you how many black shirts I had in my life because I just needed to be smaller, take up a little less space and blend in.

2:29

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of any gram in real life, a podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host, Stephanie Barron hall. And on today's episode, we have a true. Special gem because we have a cell preservation. Five. And if you've been listening for long, you know, that I've been asking, Hey, does anyone know a five. I could ask to be on the podcast because it's really challenging. I think fives are incredible Wells of wisdom, but it can also be challenging to, to find a five who'd really liked to come and share about their inner work journey here on the podcast. So. Today I'm meeting with Chris Schoolcraft. Chris has led and coached individuals, teams, and organizations. Through adversity for over 25 years. And during this time he's worked in religious, nonprofit and corporate settings. Investing in urban small towns and suburban communities. And he learned from and supported both disenfranchised and the ultra wealthy personally and professionally. Partnering with nonprofits and businesses to positively impact communities and lives. So he has a vast wealth of knowledge and experience in terms of those sorts of things. And he also has a deep understanding of the Enneagram and has been using the Instagram to do inner child work. And through that has discovered a new found authenticity and resilience leading to a richer and deeper life. he continues to work with organizations and executives and teams in this capacity. And today we're going to dive into a lot of this stuff. So how he got here in his life, a little bit about his background and how he discovered his subtype as a self preservation five. and this concept that he brought forth about, as fives we perfected getting our needs met without asking and kind of diving into that. he also talks a bit about nervous system overload. And then we talk about something that I think is really important with the Instagram, because admittedly you'll hear me say this later in the podcast, but when I. Wrote my, book that I'm currently working on. I'm currently in the final stages of editing now, but when I first turned it in over a year ago, I had the. The passion of avarice and the fixation of stinginess for type vibe, a little bit muddied. And so when I revisited it earlier this year, I was like, oh, this is, this is wrong. Um, and so I was able to rewrite that a little bit, which was really helpful. And today on the podcast, you'll hear Chris further elaborate the differences there in his own words. So if you're not familiar with the passion and the fixation, chris we'll explain that a bit more for you. But it's really, really helpful, insight for yourself if you're a five, but also if you have fives in your life and you're like, man, I just like don't really understand them. This conversation will be perfect for you. So I really appreciate Chris coming on the podcast and doing his work with me. He mentioned that. this is his own inner work. So I really appreciate his wisdom and you can find him online@clsdotleadershiponinstagramandclsleadership.com. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Chris Schoolcraft.

Steph Barron Hall: 5:36

Well, Chris, welcome to the podcast.

Chris Schoolcraft: 5:39

It's great to be here.

Steph Barron Hall: 5:40

Yeah. I'm so excited that you said yes. I've been sharing with my podcast audience for a while. Like if you have any vibes out there, let me know. I want to interview them mostly because I think with an Enneagram podcast, people do want kind of equal coverage of all nine types. The fives are tough and uh,

Chris Schoolcraft: 5:58

We are.

Steph Barron Hall: 5:59

yeah, but you've been on the growth path a long time. So. You're really good at putting yourself out there.

Chris Schoolcraft: 6:05

it's it's a part of my growth journey is to put myself out there. So this is exactly me doing my work.

Steph Barron Hall: 6:10

Yes, I love it. Well, I'd love to hear a little bit about your background. And yeah, kind of what brought you to this point in your life?

Chris Schoolcraft: 6:17

So I have always been interested in people, always been interested in working with people, helping people. So, grew up in North Carolina. Ended up working in the church. That's what I am on a, on a full time basis. I'm an ordained pastor. And lived in North Carolina, then moved to Dallas worked in different settings, done different things, and then somewhere along the path, the Enneagram discovered me. And it's been a big part of my life over the last seven years. And now I'm not only am I leading a church, but I also do executive nonprofit coaching using the Enneagram and I really enjoy it. And as. I alluded to I'm on the path of growth myself, and so it's a big part of my own life journey.

Steph Barron Hall: 7:01

Yeah. What drew you to the Enneagram in particular versus, you know, all of the other tools that we have?

Chris Schoolcraft: 7:08

Right. You know, it was really interesting. At first, when I was at first exposed to the Enneagram, I wasn't really excited about it. I really, and this may not be, this may be true for other numbers, but I think especially for me as a five, there's something about wanting to be distinctive and unique, probably my four wing, that kind of individualism that's really creative and interesting. And when I first encountered the Enneagram, people were really using it, As a weapon, they were talking about people. They were typing people. They were making assumptions about people. And there was a part of me that really had a kind of a visceral reaction to that. And so I really pushed the enneagram away for a while, but I had gotten to a place in my life where I was really struggling and I was burning out in my job and I needed something. And a coworker of mine had. Talked to me about the Enneagram at one time. I was resistant. And then the second time when she came back around and had a conversation with me about it, I said, I need something. And so I opened myself up to learn, to see, to see what it was, to discover what there was. And it really was a life saving experience. Part of my life and so that that's really how the Enneagram found me in my deepest and darkest moments

Steph Barron Hall: 8:21

Yeah. What how was it to first find your type? Was that immediate or were you, did you take a while? What did that look like?

Chris Schoolcraft: 8:30

Right, that's such a for me people go. How do you find your type? Well, I found my type by the worst parts of it. I was burning out I was really struggling and so for a type 5 paranoia Isolation all of those things were things I was, I was in the midst of at the time and so it didn't take me long. I kind of found it almost immediately. I knew what it was and immediately began to, to take some time and dig into it.

Steph Barron Hall: 8:59

Yeah can I ask you what was your first Enneagram book? I'm just curious.

Chris Schoolcraft: 9:04

Well, and so I live in Texas, and so in the Dallas area, Suzanne Stabile is a really big part of the Enneagram culture here. And so she was my first access point. So, the book I think it's A Journey Back to You, or The Road Back to You was her book. And that was the first Enneagram book that really kind of started me on the journey.

Steph Barron Hall: 9:24

Yeah I find that a lot too and in encountering people with it if they find me through Instagram or something They'll say oh I read the yellow one and normally they mean they're right back to you though And another yellow one I really love is the essential Enneagram by Daniels, but

Chris Schoolcraft: 9:39

yes, yes,

Steph Barron Hall: 9:41

also a good one

Chris Schoolcraft: 9:42

Yeah, and it was, and, and with Suzanne, one of the things that she said that she related her wisdom was when you learn your type, don't learn any other type. Spend a whole year just focused on your type. Because you really can't do anything about anyone else. So in terms of your personal growth through that, so that was, I took her advice at the time. And so that first year I really didn't read about a lot of other types. I really didn't research it. about a lot of other types, which is kind of not what fives normally do. But I really dug deep into my type, and so that was really beneficial for me.

Steph Barron Hall: 10:15

Yeah. I could also imagine like in a season of burnout, how kind of going deeper and being able to like sort through that would be really helpful because I know that sometimes fives, especially social fives, a little bit more, we talked a little bit about the spiritual bypassing concept of, of gaining a lot of information and being able to teach it and disseminate it, but not actually sinking into it. So you were in a place where you just had to sink into it a little bit more.

Chris Schoolcraft: 10:41

Yes, and what it really allowed me to do was to identify the lies. I would tell myself, and it really gave me a path forward. So for me, in my paranoia and withdrawal, Okay, I don't need to, I don't feel like I can trust anybody. Okay, I need to trust someone. I really don't want to say this out loud. I really need to say that out loud. I don't really want to be around people. I need to be around people. So it really gave me the opportunity to go, What does my personality want me to do? And what do I need to do in terms of doing the opposite of that as a way to climb back into a level of health that was sustainable for me.

Steph Barron Hall: 11:19

yeah, yeah. What about subtypes? When did you come across that information?

Chris Schoolcraft: 11:25

So I, once I got past that year, I really opened up my view to the Enneagram and what out there, looked at the narrative tradition looked in other places with Russ Hudson and read some of those materials, but really the subtype information came to me as I got involved with Beatrice Chesnut and Yaron Airbice, and that's where I've done a lot of my work and that's where I still continue to do a lot of my work, and so that's where I really learned about subtypes and started embracing what that meant for me.

Steph Barron Hall: 11:53

Now, I think that with fives, it can be kind of challenging because unlike some of the other types, the different five subtypes can be a little bit more similar. Like there are some similar through lines that remain consistent. And so, The work isn't always that much different. I think sometimes the cultural overlay thing can be a bigger impact in just, in some of the fives that I've been working with recently that I've seen. And also like we know Uranio but I'm curious how, how are you able to kind of determine yours and what did that look like?

Chris Schoolcraft: 12:25

Well, so I'm self pressed dominant, and so that was actually, again, fairly easy for me to recognize because you know, as a self preservation dominant 5, isolation, being in my castle, you know, I can tell stories of not giving people my address, of not answering the door, of not giving people my correct address. Because I didn't trust that they wouldn't show up or, you know, so there were just very clear markers that for me, what my dominant subtype was. And as I traced back through that pathology and through some of the difficult times, I could see where I was trying to use other subtypes, but didn't have the inner structure to balance. And so that was, that was really important for me.

Steph Barron Hall: 13:10

Okay. So self prized dominant.

Chris Schoolcraft: 13:13

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 13:14

it's kind of interesting what you just mentioned where, you know, you didn't give people your correct address, for example. And I think that's kind of interesting with fives because it's something I've seen, especially with self press fives, where it feels like too contentious to navigate the conversation of like, I actually don't want you to know where I live or actually want to make sure that if you do know my address, you're not going to come over. Like in setting that boundary, it's just easier to like, make it like set the boundary to where it's impossible for them to penetrate it versus like having to trust that person with not penetrating your

Chris Schoolcraft: 13:49

Right. Well, what I say about what one of the things I learned about me and that I say mostly about other fives, and I haven't heard anyone disagree with me yet, is that fives, we really perfected getting our needs met without asking. So, we didn't trust that either the person that was neglecting us in our life would ever answer our call, or that the person that was being intrusive, or the energy that was being intrusive in our life would ever hold boundaries. So, whenever that really basic sense of trust feels broken there's no, it's very difficult for a 5 not to project that onto anyone. Any and every situation any and everybody. So we really feel, or at least I always felt like it was incumbent upon me in explicit and implicit ways to assure my safety and to make sure that I put myself in a situation where I could take care of. And that's something that not a lot of fives. Say out loud or articulate, but when I say it, most vibes can resonate at some level with that. If they're self pressed dominant, for sure. Sometimes other subtypes, not quite as much.

Steph Barron Hall: 14:57

Yeah, yeah, that that makes a lot of sense and like, how that can be a way of self sufficiency of like, you don't even have to ask the question of like, trusting or not. I know a lot of the time people say that. Ron Swanson from Parks and Rec is a five. I, I don't know. Like, I think it's really difficult to type fictional characters because the writers might've been feeling something different or the director might've been feeling something different episode to episode. So, but in that way of like redacting all their personal information and like redacting their address, like that sort of thing feels five ish to me.

Chris Schoolcraft: 15:37

Yeah, well, we're always, at least for me, I'm always in a place of not wanting to give so much that it might prompt someone else to lean in in a way that I'm uncomfortable. So those micro withdrawals, whether it's the withdrawal of information, the stinginess of being able to monitor those things, it's just a way of not wanting to give so much that someone might see that as an opportunity to lean too far in. So whether that's my flat affect, whether it's low body language, all of that is a way of keeping people from even sensing an entry point into my life and and not leaving them much room for that. Mm hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 16:23

because my sister is a six, but for a while we thought maybe she was a five. And for a long time we were talking about these things and I was like, well, everyone loves to talk about themselves. And she was like, no, no, they don't. And I was like, yeah, like if you ask a lot of questions. People open up and she's like, no, no, no, no. And I think it's so interesting now through an Enneagram lens, I can understand that a little bit more. And entertain that idea. Like for example, I, I actually wrote on Instagram one time, but I still don't like to ask personal questions. Somebody commented and said, I don't mind being asked personal questions. Like if you ask something too personal, like what books I'm reading, then. That's too too far, but like other personal and I'm like wait, that's a personal question to you. That's small talk to me.

Chris Schoolcraft: 17:17

Well, and for every five, that's, you know, fives are fairly finicky in how we assess what is and what isn't boundary crossing. And, and that's, and that's what's really hard for people is that fives. Again, I love being who I am, but we breadcrumb a lot of ways. We leave subtle hints. We want to be found, but we really don't want to act like it. And we don't, you're not going to know what we don't want to talk about because we're not going to give you enough information. We just want to see if you're going to beat the one or a person who can ferret that out, you know, to be in relationship with a five, you know, it can be difficult. Especially if there's someone that really is kind of sitting behind the veil, you're great poker players, right? Waiting for someone to find their way across it.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:04

Yeah maybe great poker players, but I'm not sure that fives are always good liars

Chris Schoolcraft: 18:10

Well, that's the reason we'd much rather not say anything at

Steph Barron Hall: 18:13

Yeah, yeah

Chris Schoolcraft: 18:15

Our, our, our awkwardness can betray us. In, in, in my own personal belief, and this is, again, just my own generalizations, I think fives, in their own ways, want to be found. And so subconsciously, I think fives want to give. And do those types of things, but but for the most part, yeah, we'll stay silent and really stoic and we probably don't want to lie. Partly when I just say that out loud, my first reaction is I don't want to be caught in a lie and then I have to deal with you dealing with me caught in a lie. So if I can do it by avoiding, that's just so much better.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:51

yeah. Yeah for sure Yeah,

Chris Schoolcraft: 18:56

second. I'm sorry.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:59

I'm curious because I've heard, uh, Beatrice Chestnut talk a lot about sensitivity and abandonment and these sorts of things for fives. And I think that those are things that in normal five descriptions where it's like, Oh, fives are just robots. Okay. Which is not accurate. Right. So like, I'm curious if you have any insight on that.

Chris Schoolcraft: 19:20

I'll speak for myself and I'll give an example. My experience, the reason we put walls up is because we never develop baselines. Of engagement because of either the, because sometimes of the extremes in which we grew up or felt like we were living through as children, either it was very invasive or nonexistent. So for fives, there's a very, there's not a real baseline sometimes of what is, what is intimacy? What is connection? What is that energetic flow between? We don't know what that is because it was either one way or the other, or that's the way we experienced the world. And so, we're not robots. The affect and the roboticness is, is partly a way in which we feel awkward in the world and awkwardness is our superpower. We love, we feel awkward and we love to foster awkwardness sometimes as a way of a defense, right? So, but But it is, uh, we are really, I tell people the most, one of the most sensitive numbers on the Enneagram, not just emotionally, but even in our nervous system. So, even for me, I, I was at dinner a few weeks ago, some friends were there and all of a sudden the energy in the room picked up. They started making plans. Those plans had to do with me and all of a sudden I felt, you know, this vulnerability wash over me. I felt my nervous system begin to charge and I almost had a panic attack of sorts and it was the first time that I had ever realized just how much I am constantly downscaling my nervous system by, by not allowing access. Because it's really, for fives, if they really open up and haven't done work, it can be a lot.

Steph Barron Hall: 21:05

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And I think I've even seen other minute examples of that, where. like fives and sometimes sixes as well have like a lot of sensitivities to like scents or like that sort of thing in their environment. It's just like

Chris Schoolcraft: 21:20

Well, I Yeah, like I like now a part of my work is every time I walk in, I cut all my lights on because there's a five. My natural inclination was to have the least amount of visual stimulation possible. So keep the lights down. Keep it nuanced. Keep the music down. Let's and then be able to handle things. In that kind of range is real, was really helpful. So part of my work is I open up the windows and let the sunshine in. I'm in a bright room now. I'm wearing a bright colored shirt, right? You know, I can't tell you how many black shirts I had in my life because I just needed to be smaller, take up a little less space and blend in.

Steph Barron Hall: 21:56

Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious if you can share, this is like more of a technical Enneagram question, but you mentioned stinginess earlier as the fixation. And I'm curious if you can share a little bit about how you distinct distinguish between avarice and stinginess. I think That can be confusing and it's funny. I just turned in a book. I turned it in for the first time a year ago. Now this time when I was re editing, I was like, wait, that's not avarice. Why am I saying here that's avarice? And like rewrote the section. And yeah, I, I think it can be useful to like further distinguish those.

Chris Schoolcraft: 22:36

So now this is, I may not be the best to ask this question, but I'll tell you how I think about it. Avarice, for me, if I let it settle, it is, in its most basic sense, a withholding of life. For, as five, for me as a five, I, I wake up, if I'm not careful and I'm not aware, I'll wake up every morning and feel like there's not enough within me to handle life. The reality is, is that just as much as any other number, a five has access to energy and life and, Relationships. And yet, and so part of me wants to withhold that connection, withhold the connection with you. I don't want to say too much. I don't want to ramble. I don't want to let my face be too expressive. I don't want it. What are these hands doing? I don't know. But the whole idea is to withhold that life connection back because if I, if I share it, if I open up, will I have enough? And so avarice really is that sense of I don't have enough life within me to share with everybody else and still exist. And so I need to withhold, I need to hold that back. Now what that does in my mind, in the stinginess, is that I'm always playing it safe. And in kind of dividing and measuring and rationing in my mind, right? Do I have enough opportunity to be here? Well, I don't want to give too much to this moment. So I'm going to start doing something over here. That's stinginess, right? Because I'm not going to give all of that energy. So my mind is creating a distraction.

Steph Barron Hall: 24:16

Yeah,

Chris Schoolcraft: 24:16

fives tend to dabble. We're dabblers, right? Like we'll dive deep and we'll dabble all across certain things. Some of that is stinginess. We don't want to take the risk of really pouring all that we have into something or a person or a situation because how vulnerable that is. I don't, I don't know if that makes sense or. Or it's clear, but that's, that's one of the ways I think of it.

Steph Barron Hall: 24:41

I think it does. I a five an example with me and basically said that and I don't want to share too much about the example, but they basically said that when they share an idea with somebody else, it's like no longer part of them. It's, it's like, they no longer have the idea. It's also an. Like somebody else has it too. And so I thought that was really interesting because I never think of it like that. I'm like, Oh, we can both fully be in possession of this thought. Right. But for a five, it's not that way.

Chris Schoolcraft: 25:14

Well, again, we love our thoughts. And because if we're not careful, at least for me as a five, I can think all I have to offer are my thoughts. So if all I have to offer is my intelligence and competence, then it's a zero sum game. I really loved one person who said fives want to know the answer before they get to the conversation. And then it, and, but their point was sometimes you're not going to know the answer until you're in the conversation. And that was really helpful for me. Me, because what that told me is you're not gonna, Chris, you're not going to have the energy you need till you start the conversation. You're not going to have all the ideas that you need to get to the answer until you move into that team based collaboration. And so that really reframed that kind of withholding and figuring out within me and trusting that sometimes the answer isn't there until you get there. And that, that opened doors for me.

Steph Barron Hall: 26:12

Yeah, that's so useful because it made me think of about a year ago. I was working with this It wasn't really a team. It was just like a group of realtors. Like they, you know, I went and spoke and of course there are tons of sevens, tons of threes in the audience, just a few fives. And the four is really like, they, they had their own, there are three of them, I think, and they're like, they made up their own Enneagram. I'm pretty sure like they did their own, but like the, there was this one five and he was saying like, Well, what happened? What do I do when I need to make a decision? And I come to this conversation with this client and how do I navigate that? I was like, I mean, you just have to, to try. And, and like, he's like, but how do I know when I'm ready to try? And I kind of was like thinking like, I actually don't, don't know. What would you say to that type of person?

Chris Schoolcraft: 27:09

yeah. So whenever so for doing repress numbers. So for most doers, right? They're fluent in the language and the experience of doing they've been doing all their life. They've done small things. They've done big things. They've done complicated things. They failed at things. They've been great at things. So fives are fluency is in our minds. We can think through section framework, but we're not fluent in doing. That's the reason sometimes when fives come to you and they're like, Oh, look, I did this thing and, and a doer will look at that and go, okay, you did that. I do that every day before 8 00 AM. What a five really wants to know is, look, I did something. Do you, can you see that I can do, and it takes a while for fives to build up the fluency of doing and, and to be able to feel all the feelings of doing to maneuver through that in a way that they feel comfortable, because if not what every five is going, what most, oh, here I am generalizing what for me is a five. When I show up to that moment, all I can think about are all the ways that I don't do and haven't done and don't understand. Instead of seeing all of the resources that doers and other people who engage consistently can draw upon.

Steph Barron Hall: 28:22

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I always tell fives to like, take the mental model and put it into real life and see what happens. And to me, you know, I, I've had my fair share of like, you know, being stuck in a freeze response. Uh, but. You know, to me, a lot of things, I really should have thought about it more, to be honest, before I did it. And, uh, so, so kind of just like doing the thing is, is like, okay, yeah. You know, that's just part of life. And I think it can be challenging sometimes for me to appreciate how, how difficult it is to actually make that first move.

Chris Schoolcraft: 29:02

Well, and for many fives, doing wasn't Encouraged it wasn't safe to do either. Someone didn't recognize it. And so sometimes I will struggle with really, is it worth it? Do I really want to muster enough energy to be excited about this or engaged apathy and ambivalence or strong? protective measures for fives because sometimes somebody in their life didn't really appreciate their doing when it started showing up. And so that got encouraged. And, and so for fives, they really have to be willing to feel the feelings that come along with doing the rejection, the criticism, the constructive feedback, the praise because a lot of that didn't filter through for them. Now, it may have been there sometimes. I always have to Push on my fives a little bit. It's not that people weren't doing it sometimes in our own five ness, we just filtered that out in our minds and just heard the same things that we would always hear in instead of seeing what may have actually been there.

Steph Barron Hall: 30:05

How do you think about just because you've mentioned, you know, some of like the childhood patterns and stuff. How do you think about how our types are formed?

Chris Schoolcraft: 30:14

The general thing that I, I tend to believe and say is, you know, I, I believe a large part of it is our genetic inheritance. And then part of it is our environment. And then the, you know, kind of like we say in the world, the alchemical experience of how that manifests. And sometimes we both experience that as an expression of our type. And then sometimes oftentimes our type will groom our environment to reinforce those patterns. And so I think it's just this really interesting interplay of things. So you have to be aware of your story, the story that you tell yourself, the filters that groom and that. You know, shift your environment and then learn about, you know, what other people's part in that really

Steph Barron Hall: 30:56

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so important. And I think I look a lot at the cultural context. And especially because I work with a lot of teams that are cross cultural. And so we always have to have those conversations and about, you know, how your cultural perspective also plays into how things come across. So for example, how I grew up. As a three, what I consider to be successful and appropriate and all those sorts of things is very different because I am from outside of Dallas. I have like all these other, you know, social identifiers that that make up who I am. So that's going to be really different from somebody who grew up. And Los Angeles, which is the area I lived in for a long time. Like, so even seeing how those different things play out, I think is really interesting. But I totally agree with you about like that lens that we kind of have, like, and there, you know, there's research on the heritability of personality traits. Right. But

Chris Schoolcraft: 31:53

right.

Steph Barron Hall: 31:54

I, I kind of agree with that perspective too.

Chris Schoolcraft: 31:58

I, one of the things that I've started saying more in the teamwork that I do is that the Enneagram is not, is the better tool not to make better assumptions, but to ask better questions. And so I think your idea about social identifiers, context, I think those are part of the better questions that the Enneagram can help us ask, especially around our origin stories and what are the layers that are a part of that. So I, I really think that's a great way to approach that. Yes, we are.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:23

Yeah. I'm curious about your work and how you see your type show up in the work that you do because you do coaching and you work with people. Like you said, you've always been interested in people. And people are like fives. They don't like people, but that's not the case.

Chris Schoolcraft: 32:41

know, fives, it's whatever the interest of the five is. Mine is self development and personal development, right? It's not auto mechanics. It's not computers and technology. So it's whatever the five is interested in, which really lays that out. And in terms of the work that I do, The balance is that I feel like I can really fall into the real, the pattern of one on one work. You know, fives, in general, fives, especially self pressed fives, will feel more comfortable in individual work. Those types of things. Part of my, you know, You know, I lead and still work in a congregation. I lead a staff. I do those types of things. So I think my work generally prefers one on one types of interactions, but I do work with teams and I do make sure I still lead a team of people and I lead a group of people as a part of balancing my growth because it would be really easy for me. Like there's, you know, so when I get up in the morning, cause I'm, since I'm self pressed dominant and social repressed, like I get up every morning and I think about, okay, what do I need? What do I need to eat? Where do I need to be financially? What decisions do I need to make? Who are the people I want in my life? The first thought isn't, hey, what does my staff need today? Hey, how do I show up as a great, that's not the first place my mind goes to. So the balance is I've integrated into my life these areas that help me show up and really practice and balance my You know, that's subtyping and as a five to do that.

Steph Barron Hall: 34:10

Yeah. Just like being really intentional about your own work, which is actually a trend that I see among fives who are into inner inner work. Mm hmm.

Chris Schoolcraft: 34:19

Yes. Once we committed to it, fives can be pretty courageous in that. And that's a, that's a really cool thing about fives. In

Steph Barron Hall: 34:27

I'm curious about your work, you know, through working with individuals, especially what have you learned about yourself through coaching others

Chris Schoolcraft: 34:37

terms of being a five or just in

Steph Barron Hall: 34:39

in general?

Chris Schoolcraft: 34:40

I think it for a long time that the sensitivity that I have is a five. Whenever that is not protecting me. But when that sensitivity is available, it gives me the opportunity to really connect with people on a deeper level and to feel and be more compassionate, empathetic, and, and to be able to see and notice things that other people don't notice about themselves or to have clarity about things that can be really helpful to people. Now, when I'm really defended and guarded and contracted in that self protective, self prez. kicks in, then it's really a lot harder for me to do that. Uh, that's when I become really cerebral and really thoughtful. But when I'm really open and available, I think what my individual work has taught me is that I really can connect with people. I really can see people in a way that's helpful to them. And I can reflect back to people parts of themselves that they don't always see and have access to.

Steph Barron Hall: 35:39

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm curious if you have any thoughts on this is like a massive question, but I feel like I hear a lot of fives talk about like things in a very abstract way.

Chris Schoolcraft: 35:48

Yeah, the moment you said, this is going to be a big question, my little fiveness went just a little bit right there when you said that. So I kind of dissociated for a moment. Yeah, I, in terms of abstract I can feel, I can be me. Yeah. A lot more in the moment when I feel feelings and I'm able to be in touch with the sensations that are going on in my body. And that's when my language changes. I'm not reading from a book. I'm not reciting something dispassionately. I'm actually experiencing the presence of the moment. So when we do that work and we're able to feel happy or sad or upset or frustrated or anxious and even just to be able to notice what's going on in our body at the same time, uh, we really come out of the abstract and are able to feel what's going on in the moment and that changes the way we show up. And that's, I think that's what you're kind of alluding to, right? Or is there more there that you'd like?

Steph Barron Hall: 36:48

Well, I think that makes sense. And I'm curious if you feel like you can naturally connect more to one of the other centers. Because for example, I interviewed a five. to write about this, but she grew up riding horses and it was so easy for her to connect with the body center because so much of riding horses is about like those, like my new ways of changing. your kind of interaction and connection with the horse to like make them do what you want them to do. And so she grew that connection to the body center. And so for you, is there one of those centers that feels easier? Yeah.

Chris Schoolcraft: 37:26

a really good question. So my, my path through that journey I, I think for me, loneliness and sadness were a big part of my childhood. And so I think for me, the development moved through my heart center. And being able to sit in my sadness, to sit in my loneliness, and what that allowed me to do was to trust my body to hold those emotions. And so I spent a lot of my earlier work really facing and turning into the emotions that I was trying to dissociate from. And as I did that, And, and trusted my body to hold those emotions that brought those centers more in line and, and made them more, uh, more available to me. Now I had to move through some of those emotional patterns of sadness. You know, there's, it's one of those things to just be like, Oh, I'm always sad, or is this just the place I'm familiar going? And then as I began to open that up, my body center opened up, I'd always played sports, always been very active and I still work out. So. That all allowed me to, to really be more balanced in the three centers. But I had to go through my heart first to get to a place to where I could be more in touch with my body.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:40

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And I think even for clients that I've worked with, those who can't feel very easily being able to connect. To the body is also an important part of like, then reestablishing their connection to their emotions. So I could see how it could kind of like play together.

Chris Schoolcraft: 39:00

Yeah. I remember, was it Russ Hudson? He, I was listening to something he was talking about and he was relating a Sufi tradition about that the beach is your body and that the ocean is your heart, and the only way you can get to your heart is And so his idea was, you know, your body has to be able to hold those emotions for your inner self to be able to experience them to the full. So I, I can see that, yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 39:29

Yeah. I just lost my train of thought. Sorry. As we're talking through this, I'm kind of thinking about, uh, conversation I had last week where, uh, somebody said, I said, would you rather, this person was also had type, I said, would you rather talk about, uh, the Your feelings for three hours or, uh, climb up a mountain. And he was like, Oh, no, neither,

Chris Schoolcraft: 39:52

Like no, he didn't want to climb up the mountain or he didn't want to feel the feelings or they, whoever they were.

Steph Barron Hall: 39:57

He was like, no, thank you to both of those.

Chris Schoolcraft: 40:01

I think, I think for me where I am in my life right now is I want to explore those things. I think for so long, I lived my life pulling away from what was possible, not, not living into my body. And so, you know, just interesting right now, I'm going, what could my body actually do? Could I climb a mountain? Like, what would that feel like? Like, how would that energy open up? Like, how would I have to train for that? And then, in terms of my feelings and emotions, I feel a lot more comfortable with those. Again, I think there's, you know, some of that for ness that plays out. What I find is that I like talking about my emotions and experiencing them with people. I can relish my own emotions. I can spend time feeling them and sensing them and tracing them inside myself. But it is in their ability to both connect me to myself, but really I enjoy sharing my feelings and sharing emotional conversations with people because I find that's an incredible way to, to be intimate and intact with people. Now, I never would have done that before, but but I find it a lot more interesting now.

Steph Barron Hall: 41:06

Yeah. It's kind of a new way to research and like understand and learn and do something different. And. Even your reaction to the, uh, the first part, the climbing a mountain, I, I thought, Oh, that's kind of like the arrows, your seven and eight arrows.

Chris Schoolcraft: 41:24

Yeah. And, and, and leaning into the boundaries, the strength, the energy of that as, as a way of holding that space, it took me a minute to really understand to go and to lean into that eight arrow and to really set boundaries, be assertive, ask for what I wanted, show up and show energy. And that holds the space to be playful, to have fun. And it balances that seven energy. Such a way as a defense, I would usually always go to seven as a way of being playful or passive aggressive or doing whatever I needed to do to get, to get where that was. But showing up with good eight energy and just being solid and trusting the moment and trusting myself, it's been a game changer.

Steph Barron Hall: 42:09

Yeah. What was it like for you to become a leader early on?

Chris Schoolcraft: 42:14

Well, I think so I've always been in leadership roles. I think there's an idea of trying to manufacture energy. So again, as a self press five, one on one's really good. I can deal with people. One, what does it mean to stand up in front of a church? What does it mean to stand up in front of a thousand people? What does it mean to stand up and lead a group of people and do that? Well, I didn't have the development to be able to do that because that wasn't, that was my social, that was my repressed subtype. So it took me a long time to work through and grow to where I can really be authentic in front of a group of people. I don't have to engineer, amp up, rev up. I can just be just like I'm being with you now. I would be in front of a group of people or I'd be with another individual. It's, it's being able to balance that. So it took me a while to stop. What, that's part of the reason I burned out is that I had created this persona of a leader that didn't have any inner support. And so once I burned out and all those coping skills were revealed and burned through, then I really was given the opportunity to kind of rebuild. From within. And so now I would say I'm a more authentic leader. In leadership roles,

Steph Barron Hall: 43:31

Yeah. I think that's a good point to where I've heard Aranya talk about this as well, where fives actually can do a bit of the chameleon thing that we normally attribute mostly to threes. Yeah. How does that play out for you?

Chris Schoolcraft: 43:43

Oh well, the difference, uh, the distinction I make is fives blend. We don't become, so we can pose as if we don't, we don't integrate and allow that to become a deeper part. So if I'm in a room, I can stand as if I'm somebody that belongs in the room. It's a lot harder for me to act as if I belong in the room, or if I do, I can only do it. For so long. I don't get energy from that.

Steph Barron Hall: 44:12

Mm hmm.

Chris Schoolcraft: 44:13

Whereas in my experience of threes, and please is that there is that threes are able to generate energy and to show up and to lean in and really be more involved in what's happening in the ball. Is that fair?

Steph Barron Hall: 44:25

Yeah. And I think, you know, for me, If I feel like I'm really connected with everyone, it is really energizing. You know, I'm not like, Oh my gosh, my light force is leaving me. I'm like, this is amazing. Like, let's go. Yeah.

Chris Schoolcraft: 44:43

feel my life force leaving me at the moment. Yes, that's and that's and that's what if I would feel this is draining. This is not where I want to be. I don't want to do this. And I'm having to resist what is often being taken from me in a situation. It's uh, it's uh, it can feel that more intrusive language. This is being taken from me. And you know, that's what I thought. Yeah, that's a great distinction.

Steph Barron Hall: 45:07

Well, and I also think of blending in as like, kind of like we were talking about earlier and it almost feels a bit nine ish where it's like, I'm just going to blend, but for a five, it's like, so that nobody calls me out and is like, Hey, why aren't you standing? Hey, why aren't you doing this? Hey, why are you sticking out? It just is the minimum amount of energy that you need to put out there.

Chris Schoolcraft: 45:27

Exactly. And, and nines again, almost because three sixes and nines, you know, nines can, because their energy moves out to people that merging that happens, you know, they can be energized by that. They can do that. It's, but I haven't met a five yet that loses themselves

Steph Barron Hall: 45:45

Yeah.

Chris Schoolcraft: 45:46

and what they're doing in the moment. Fives are, We're, you know, it can happen where it can blur, but I haven't met a five that doesn't still maintain a real clear sense of I don't want to be here. I don't like this. This is what I would rather be doing in order for me to survive this moment. I'm going to blend and kind of freeze. Blending to me is the freeze response, right? Let me just freeze and see if everybody doesn't recognize me. And it's kind of like playing dead. Maybe you'll move on and then I can get on with my life, right? It's a it's another version of that freeze for five.

Steph Barron Hall: 46:18

Yeah. Well, that's really interesting. Yeah. I mean, I've heard a sexual five talk about it where you know, sexual fives do blend. They merge a little bit more just because that's the sexual instinct. Right. But even then saying, I can't imagine even ever. Being able to tolerate, like, there's like this deep, dark panic that comes up when they think, why would I want to be subsumed by somebody else? Or like, why would I want to like, blend with somebody else? Like I would lose myself and that feels like an existential threat.

Chris Schoolcraft: 46:48

Yes. Well, that, you know, that's really, you know, yeah, that's true. Fives, our sense of existential dread and threat is a real big motivator for us.

Steph Barron Hall: 46:58

How can people connect better with fives? Do you think?

Chris Schoolcraft: 47:03

It's really hard because fives really dictate inside their own selves, what that can look like. And it's really hard when fives don't give people the information that they need. So, so my, my experience has been. Whatever expectation you have about connecting with a five, I would hold it lightly because I think that creates a different kind of energy with fives. If you show up and say, Hey, I would love to connect. But if you don't, I I'm good. Hey, I would love to do this freedom and and independence is really important for five. So, you know, talk about things if I want to talk about be interested in things, but again, hold that stuff loosely. Because unless the five kind of chooses you as somebody they want to allow access, then almost any move toward them that isn't held lightly or isn't done consistently or doesn't show respect can really. Lean a five to to be kind of distancing with you and and fives are great at placating people So fives can sit in front of you and smile all day sometimes like nines and you don't even know that they have no desire To connect with you whatsoever, and they're just counting the seconds until you lose interest so that they can move on to what they want To do so it's really fives are really fickle people and maybe no other five does that but I've That in my life. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 48:31

I mean, I've certainly heard and experienced that, uh, from other fives too. So, and. You know, for me, it's not so much a thing that it's like personal, though. I am sure that it does feel personal for some people and in some relationships. I just happen to have not that close a relationship with those fives in the first place.

Chris Schoolcraft: 48:51

If for numbers that for some that really need connection validation or whatever those connections are, those can be those sometimes can be problematic for fives because. They want something from that interaction with a 5, and a 5 can sense that a mile away. And, and if a 5 senses that, and they feel like, oh, this person needs something from me, and they haven't asked me about it, and they're going to keep coming until they get it, then I'm going to have to figure out how to handle this. And so 5s can be like that.

Steph Barron Hall: 49:23

yeah, yeah, yeah, that can feel really challenging. You know, I think for both both parties for sure. Like, I, I have a lot of empathy for fives when they feel like they can't. Escape and they, they are feeling so stuck and, and not feeling like they can have boundaries and things like that.

Chris Schoolcraft: 49:39

Mm hmm. Yeah. And that's really on a five, right? You know, I love how five will, will project that out onto other people being needy or needing things. And that's just another way for, for we five to play games because we'd much rather make it more about what you're needing and your intrusiveness than really about the needs that we're not acknowledging. And I'd much rather make that about you than really talk about how I cut my nose off to spite my face so that I don't have to deal with my own, you know, emotional stuff. It is.

Steph Barron Hall: 50:09

honest.

Chris Schoolcraft: 50:09

is. I

Steph Barron Hall: 50:12

Okay. So I'm curious, uh, kind of like wrapping up here, but what would you recommend to somebody who there are five, they're brand new on their path. Like, what are some practical steps they can take?

Chris Schoolcraft: 50:25

think for Fives, building, this is probably the thing that was the most helpful for me as a self prescribed was, first of all, I found a therapist. So I needed somewhere I could trust that I could be my whole self and I needed to find someone who could play a role in my life that I could begin to model. I also realized that I needed to expand my friend group. And I actually needed to find one more person that I could talk to, share about, and, and begin to practice and trust in ways that didn't come natural to me. And and I think that is a big, that is a lot to ask of a five, that just didn't, what I just said right there is a lot to

Steph Barron Hall: 51:12

Yeah,

Chris Schoolcraft: 51:13

And, but those two things were really big and they led to other things. Opportunities and other developments. But until I really had a therapeutic presence in my life, someone I could trust and began to open up my life a little bit more to relationships I couldn't really do much.

Steph Barron Hall: 51:31

yeah, yeah. Did you find a friend who was like, A really different or had like a really different personality or was it just like adding another friend into the circle?

Chris Schoolcraft: 51:42

You know what was funny? So I really started practicing this when I was really at my lowest and I ended up that particular time attracting a lot of body types into my life. So I had a lot of eights and ones, and I still have some good friends who are eights and ones. And they really were I think intuitively I felt like I wanted protection and so I wanted, I wanted some of that in my life, but I also I needed some people in my life who weren't going to sway, who while I was up and down, they were solid. And at that time, those body types were the ones that really provided that for me. So yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 52:17

Yeah, gotta appreciate that. Okay final two questions

Chris Schoolcraft: 52:22

sure.

Steph Barron Hall: 52:22

Tell me about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year

Chris Schoolcraft: 52:28

Right. In the last year I read a book I'll have to look it up. It was on shadow work and that book really Really helped me because I've been doing work for several years. I really felt like I'd gotten to a kind of a plateau and then began to read about doing shadow work and really showing up. And what were the parts of me that were, I was not seeing, what was I not accessing and what was I not working through? And it was really kind of a truth telling for me as a five. I can dismiss people. And if I'm not careful as a five, my own internal arrogance will filter out people as a way of protecting myself. And so I really took a long, hard look at that and doing that kind of work, and it really opened up a lot of doors for me. It really did.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:17

Yeah, that sounds really useful. And when you let me know the name of it, I'll put it in the show notes. But I have used the, uh, Jerry Wagner's nine lenses on the world,

Chris Schoolcraft: 53:29

Mm hmm. Mm

Steph Barron Hall: 53:30

a lot recently and I really like how In that book, there are two columns of like adjectives or like descriptors for each type. And one is like how I identify. So me and then not me. And part of the thing in there is like integrating both and seeing how, you know, for three, I'm both efficient and inefficient, like an integrating those things. And it's, it can be a stretch mentally at times to be like, Oh, but I don't want to.

Chris Schoolcraft: 54:00

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I find, I find myself, you know, fives are naturally defiant people, at least I experienced myself as that way and, and I haven't met a five yet who hasn't been defiant. It's so funny. And uh, and so whenever we get to that shadow work, it really, for fives, to really take a look at that anger that's inside of us, to really take a look at, at both the great thinking we do, but also the thinking that we struggle with. It's just, it's just really good work. It really is.

Steph Barron Hall: 54:28

Yeah, great. Okay. Finally, tell me a piece of advice that has really stuck with you.

Chris Schoolcraft: 54:33

I think for new fives, it's what I said at the beginning. I think before when people get in the Enneagram, especially because the Enneagram has picked up a lot of energy, I just tell people just to focus on your number. Don't worry about anybody else. Don't worry about your partner. Don't worry about your neighbor. Don't worry about your coworkers. Like if you really want to grow, take a year and just focus on your number. Learn about you, do the work, and whatever else comes from that is going to move you forward. In my experience, a lot more than really trying to figure other people out and do that type of work. That's, that's probably what I would say.

Steph Barron Hall: 55:08

that is really good advice. I think because so often, even, you know, when I take this into teams, I see people getting really hung up on, you know, different types and which type can I work with best and, and that sort of thing, or which type should I date or, and it's like, well, that's not really what we're doing here. Right. Like

Chris Schoolcraft: 55:25

Right.

Steph Barron Hall: 55:26

we're trying to do our own stuff. And you know, Suzanne also said you have to, learn for at least two to three years before you can start teaching. And I think as a three, it would be my, my tendency not to do that. But she said that and I was like, Oh, that's good advice. So I took that advice and I think it actually was really useful for me as well. So, so some good, good little tidbits from Suzanne there.

Chris Schoolcraft: 55:48

Yeah. Those are really helpful. And the only other thing I would say is for any five that I've met there is so much more. That you have access to than you can possibly imagine and continuing to realize that over and over and over and over again. To me is the journey of a five

Steph Barron Hall: 56:12

Yeah.

Chris Schoolcraft: 56:13

now.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:14

Yeah. That's great. Well, uh, where can everyone find you? Where can they work with you? Connect with you.

Chris Schoolcraft: 56:22

you can go to my website. CLS leadership dot com. You can schedule an appointment there. My email address is there. You can contact me. Love to have a conversation. Or even if you're just interested more about fives and my perspective, I'd love to talk to you. So please, that's where you can find me.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:37

Thanks so much. I will link that in the show notes.

Chris Schoolcraft: 56:40

Yeah, thank you for allowing me to be here and actually to do my work by showing up and sharing. It really means a lot to me. So thank you.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:47

Of course. I appreciate you joining me and I know our listeners will get so much out of this interview and all of your Five Wisdom.

Chris Schoolcraft: 56:54

Thank you.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:56

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify