Susanne: 1:47

I also started my organization and foreign parents of Austin to advocate for LGBTQIA and. Students and sex ed in Texas, which is just an open invitation for like lots of conflict and in some cases, even like dangerous conflict. So, um, so it's very not mine of me. So I, part of me justifies it and like, I'm like, okay, I, I so don't want conflict that I don't want conflict for any of these little kiddos in their lives. So I'll like, I'll take, I'll be in the line of fire to make sure that these kids don't have conflict. I don't even know how I can justify that, but, um,

Missy: 2:27

sense of justice, I think is what it is. And you saw something that was not right and you wanted to forge a new path and make it right. And I think that's very nine.

2:44

Welcome back to Enneagram in real life, a podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host Steph Barron hall. And on today's episode, I am meeting with Missy Stevens and Suzanne Kerns, who are the hosts of the mom and podcast. They're both nines on the Enneagram. Which makes for a bit of a fun and interesting conversation today, we're going to talk a little bit about subtypes today. So if you're interested in that at all, I'll share more about that. And I'm going to walk through each of the three. Subtypes of type nine. So stay tuned for that. Uh, but before we get into that, I'll introduce Missy and Suzanne. So Missy Stevens is a writer. Foster child advocate and podcaster. Her past life includes stints as a corporate community relations manager and nonprofit communications writer. These days, Missy is an aspiring novelist slowly working on endless revisions of her first manuscript. Her work has been featured in local and national online publications, as well as in the stage production, listen to your mother. Suzanne is a humor writer living in Austin, Texas with her husband and two children. Her work has been featured in scary mommy. Red book today, parents and several parenting anthologies. She's currently writing her first nonfiction book and also runs informed parents of Austin, a group she founded to advocate for LGBTQ. I a plus students, families and staff in the school district. So you can check out their podcast, mom and, and. I'll link it in the show notes. It can be a little bit challenging to find which we'll chat about a bit today. Um, but it's mom and.dot dot. So the concept is that I think a lot of the time, what I hear from my friends who are parents. Is that in motherhood, you lose a bit of your identity. And so, making your Lipsey's count is kind of their motto. So we talked a little bit today about, um, each of their typing journeys, how they settled on type nine, some of the wings versus subtypes, how nines stand up for justice and are really skilled, especially at standing up for others who they perceive to be treated unfairly. Uh, we go through a breakdown of self pres social and one-to-one nines. Subtypes. And we talk a little bit about the growth paths for each subtype. So I also wanted to ask them, what is it like to work together as two nines? Because this was my first time interviewing two podcasts guests. At the same time and it flowed really well. And I think that's because they kind of have a natural rhythm. Being podcast partners for so long, but also because they're both nines and they both kind of, Said, oh, you go first. You go first, Which is actually a funny dynamic. So they also talked about numbing out the world during the pandemic. And how they brought their pandemic woes into this new podcast and made something really incredible and special. I think so. I really hope you'll enjoy this episode and be sure to check out their podcast as well. I was one of their very first guests on the podcast and I talked about the Enneagram, but you'll also find many other amazing guests that they've interviewed over the years. So without further ado, here's my conversation with two nines. Suzanne and Missy.

Steph Barron Hall: 5:53

Well, Suzanne and Missy, welcome to the podcast. Of

Missy: 5:57

Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Susanne: 5:59

So excited to be here.

Steph Barron Hall: 6:01

course. Um, so I was on your podcast a number of years ago. We were just chatting and I was thinking, Oh, it was like, you know, two years ago. It was in 2020. I cannot believe that.

Susanne: 6:11

I know. Whenever we are doing, uploading a podcast and I have to enter season four and I'm like, what, how? We just decided to do this.

Steph Barron Hall: 6:22

Yeah. So cool. Um, so your podcast is called mom and. So tell me a little bit about the background there and why you decided to name it that. Yeah,

Missy: 6:33

Suzanne's brainchild. So I'm going to let her talk about it

Susanne: 6:37

Okay. All right. Well, you know, I, I. My background is I'd started at a ad agency. I'd had this professional career. And then once I became a mom after a failed re entry attempt, after maternity leave, um, I became a stay at home mom. And the whole plan was I was going to do that until she started kindergarten. Um, but she just started college and And I did just start, I did finally relaunch, um, and we can talk a little bit about that later, but, um, over the years, I just realized that there's all these amazing other quote unquote, stay at home moms who were so smart and doing really interesting things. And we kind of basically just. didn't know much about each other. Like I'd be standing in the pickup line with someone who was a lawyer or had done corporate finance or had done some other, you know, was a VP of X, Y, Z. And I didn't even know it. Cause all we would talk about were the kids are all we would talk about is, you know, what we were bringing to the next school party. And so I, I had wanted to write a book about this for years, basically like how stay at home moms can like still be themselves when they're at home and make the most of their time, get really strategic about it. But I kept on finding reasons as you probably know, writing a book, I found all these reasons why I could not write it yet. I couldn't write it because, you know, I didn't have a job yet. I couldn't write it because my kids were still, you know, not old enough. I explored. All these things. Um, so my stallion thing is I, when I was trying to, uh, research for the book, I was like, Oh, what a great way to. Research, but to start this podcast where I'd be interviewing a bunch of people that would be, you know, the, the type of people that have write books, that'd be really interesting and incorporate that into the book. Um, but the, the actual title of mom and I mean. I think I had originally started it with like a stay at home mom feel, but then we kept on saying, well, so many moms struggle with this. It's not just stay at home moms. It's once those kids come around, you start to identify more with them, what their interests are, their sports, their dance classes, um, and really losing sight of those ellipses of the mom and dot, dot, dot. We like to say, make, make your ellipses count. Um, so we really try to focus. on all those ellipses that you do outside of just your kids, basically.

Missy: 9:17

Yeah, when we were brainstorming what we wanted the show to actually be called, we kept saying, well, it's for moms like us who are moms and writers or moms and advocates or moms and small business owners. And all of these things kept coming up and I don't remember exactly how it happened, but we were like, what if we just called it mom and dot, dot, dot. We always say the ellipses as the dot, dot, dot. Um, and it's stuck. Although as we were discussing earlier, sometimes we're hard to find, so we need to work on that. I do still love the name. It's just sometimes tricky to find.

Susanne: 9:48

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 9:50

great name. And I think. You know, so many of my friends who are moms, you know, I'm not a mom myself. Um, but so many of my friends who are, they have all of these other aspects of their life that are important. And it's like, you don't cease being a human person. Once you become a parent, especially as a woman, like I don't feel like men have that, um, You know, same expectation that like, Oh, now that you're a dad, you know, everything else is secondary. Um, like it, that's more of an intentional choice of like the superhero dad, you know? Um, whereas for, for women, I see a lot where, um, everything else just fades into the background and that can be really disillusioning, I think for a lot of women. So I'm really glad that you're making the space.

Susanne: 10:37

Yeah. And we, that's why we like to say make your ellipses count because there are a lot of dot, dot, dots. I mean, I probably spent a decade of my time at home doing a lot of dot, dot, dots that were. For a time there, I was mowing the school's lawn occasionally when it would get

Missy: 10:53

laugh.

Susanne: 10:54

I was rearranging the lost and found rack at the elementary school. I was volunteering for all these things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That were not necessarily the best use of my skills and talents. And so, yeah, it's just getting more intentional and thinking about like, okay, there's only so many hours in a day. Do you want to end it mowing the lawn at the school or, uh, volunteering for an organization where you can really keep some of your skills fresh?

Steph Barron Hall: 11:22

Yeah. Um, well, I think that's like a, kind of a perfect segue about like, You know, um, having that intentionality and bring that in instead of kind of floating to different things to talk about your Enneagram types. So we talked about this a number of years ago now when I was on your podcast, but tell me a little bit about your types and how each of you found your Enneagram type.

Missy: 11:45

I think we have similar journeys. Mine started earlier. A friend of mine was really well versed in the Enneagram, was talking about it, so I started looking into it. And when I initially went through and read some things, I thought, well, I'm a 6. And I thought I was a six for a long time, uh, and then as I read more and listened to more podcasts and got more information, I realized I'm a nine living in sort of an anxiety riddled stress driven place. And so I was acting like a six and feeling very sixy, but I'm a nine. So I really had to go learn to go look at my motivation. So it took a long time. I want to say, I said I was a six for a while. And then when I really started to learn about motivations and figuring out why you do certain things, I was like, Oh, no, I'm a nine who's just

Susanne: 12:37

Oh, no.

Missy: 12:39

I'm not a six. I'm a nine. Um, and it made a lot of sense. Cause I had always wanted to be a three. Like I felt at my best that I was three ish. And that makes sense that I am a three when things are going well and I'm firing on all cylinders. I'm a nine.

Susanne: 12:56

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 12:57

What was it like for you to recognize yourself in type nine? Was that like a relief or was it like, Oh no, you know, kind of like you said.

Missy: 13:05

You know, at first it was, Oh, no, for some reason, I just did not want to be a nine. I don't know why. And now I tell people when they're trying to figure out what they are to let go of that, like all of the numbers are good. There's nothing wrong with any of them. It just is a way to understand yourself better. Um, and I found, I also really was drawn to the ones. I thought ones are pretty awesome people. I want to be a one. And I think now as I have learned more, I know I have a wing, but what helped me is I found this description and I wrote it down, but I will have to find where I discovered it was somewhere on the internet, but it said nine wing ones are very critical, sarcastic, and have a sharpened sense of justice. And they're reasonable people who tend to analyze things and can tell right from wrong and can often find a new path that someone else didn't think of. And I was like, Oh, Oh, that is me. And that felt good. Uh, it felt like I understood myself so much better all of a sudden. And it was a relief.

Susanne: 14:06

I'm still working on my wing. Maybe we can figure me out today because

Missy: 14:10

I don't know.

Susanne: 14:11

and actually the reason we had you on very first. I think it was 1 of our very 1st episodes is because that was 1 of the. Very first things Missy said when we were talking about doing the podcast together is like, let's figure out how we're going to work together because we had been friends for a long time, you know, and we knew each other in that capacity. But as far as actually. You know, having an LLC together. Oh, shoot. Our taxes are still due. I got to do that, Missy.

Missy: 14:39

It's the second time this week we've gone. Oh no.

Susanne: 14:41

I know. Um, but yeah, so that was something that Missy brought and she's like, yeah, oh, I've, I have this friend who, you know, knows about the Enneagram. I'd never even heard about it before that. Uh, so I started my journey there and I really went through pretty much the same process as Missy, where I was pretty sure I was a six. spent a few months there. And then when I finally got it driven home that it's all about the intentionality and the intention behind it, then I was like, Oh, okay. I do a lot of six things. Uh, but yes, very, very much mine. And I, but it is funny because I don't know exactly which type Or like you were saying, what are the wings, um, but

Missy: 15:25

Lots.

Susanne: 15:29

I also started my organization and foreign parents of Austin to advocate for LGBTQIA and. Students and sex ed in Texas, which is just an open invitation for like lots of conflict and in some cases, even like dangerous conflict. So, um, so it's very not mine of me. So I, part of me justifies it and like, I'm like, okay, I, I so don't want conflict that I don't want conflict for any of these little kiddos in their lives. So I'll like, I'll take, I'll be in the line of fire to make sure that these kids don't have conflict. I don't even know how I can justify that, but, um,

Missy: 16:09

sense of justice, I think is what it is. And you saw something that was not right and you wanted to forge a new path and make it right. And I think that's very nine.

Steph Barron Hall: 16:21

Yeah. I think. Yeah, exactly. Um, no, I think that nines, well, so like when we think of the virtue of type nine, it's right action. Right. So it's, um, Knowing I, I'm willing to stand in this area of conflict. And I think a lot of the time nines are really good at doing that on behalf of others in particular. Um, I'm, they're like, I'm going to go stand in this area of conflict because I know that this is what's right. And so like having really that embodied sense of this is what I need to do. This is what I must do. This is the action that I must take, even if it's really uncomfortable at times, um, because it's worth it to you. So I think that that is definitely a nine thing.

Susanne: 17:10

Oh, good. Okay. So it's reconfirming.

Missy: 17:13

Yeah, we both advocate for other people, you know, not for ourselves. I advocate for foster children, Suzanne advocates in the LGBTQIA community. And it is, it is easier to me to go advocate for someone else. It would be much harder for me to stand in a courtroom and argue my case, but I can stand in a courtroom and speak for a child. No problem.

Steph Barron Hall: 17:35

Yeah. Yeah. I think that that makes a lot of sense and I think a lot of nines would agree. Um, and I think that sometimes when people get tripped up on the conflict thing, I mean, most people don't like conflict. You know, um, it's, it's, uh, it's not necessarily like specific to nines and also our like different social identifiers really play a huge role. So if you grew up in a family that didn't do conflict, like ever, you don't have to be a nine to hate them. The conflict, you know, um, or if you grew up in a family that has a ton of conflict, maybe you still hate that conflict. You know what I mean? Um, so it doesn't necessarily have to do with being a nine, but, um, like you guys have been pointing out, like it is the motivation piece. So, um, where is that coming from? And what do you do with it? And I think a lot of nines recognize, okay, I actually want more from my life, you know, and so I'm going to, you know, Um, but it's important to me, yeah,

Susanne: 18:40

is similar along those lines where, I mean, Uh, like I said, I love a good nap and I like to just kind of chill and it is work. It's a lot of work that we don't, you know, get paid for, but we do feel like it's valuable and that there, I mean, there's still this time in our lives and throughout the time that we were staying at home moms and caring for our kids. It's like. It's all the stuff that we wish that we had had access to and that we were having someone tell us. So it is kind of, it's not advocacy work in any case, but it's just like this sharing of knowledge and this sometimes commiseration, um, that we wish that we had had access to along the way. So there definitely are things that we're willing to unslothify ourselves for if we feel like it's for the, for the better good.

Steph Barron Hall: 19:31

there you go. I like that. Um, okay. So let's jump back for a second to the topic of wings. Um, so, I actually use subtypes more than wings. Um, so, you know, if you read, for example, the wisdom of the Enneagram by Russo and Hudson, they kind of refer to the wings as subtypes. Um, but I use subtypes in the sense of the instincts. Um, because sometimes I think it can be a little bit confusing to say, I mean, there are descriptions like the one Missy, you, you found that was really good. Um, there are descriptions like that, that you're like, Oh, I get what that's saying about this nine wing one, but sometimes it's not always clear what we're actually talking about when we talk about, um, the wings, but the subtypes have a lot more of a clear description and a clear growth path. So have you guys delved into these at all?

Susanne: 20:29

Ooh,

Missy: 20:30

haven't. Like, you just brought it up and I'm like, I've heard of it, but I don't, I could not speak intelligently to it at

Susanne: 20:35

Yeah, I'm all about the idea of growth paths, though, that's,

Missy: 20:38

Yeah. Yeah. Mm.

Steph Barron Hall: 20:42

called self preservation, social, and sexual. When I'm teaching in corporate, I say spark because I like the alliteration for the last one instead of sexual, of course, um, but there are three instincts and they can be multiplied with each type to make 27 distinct subtypes. Now, it can be useful to look at them overall, like, um, The self preservation instinct is this way, this social instinct is this way, et cetera. But there is a specific way that each of the instincts plays out with each of the types. And I think that that's more useful, um, looking at them in the context of the type. So self preservation nines, um, are, Very routine oriented. They tend to be practical. They're not like the most like dreamy or imaginative. They tend to be a lot more grounded overall. They like routines. They like to provide things for people, um, provide space for people. Um, they are, uh. They can sometimes be known to be a little bit assertive. Um, and it's not necessarily that they are being like aggressive in any way, but it's more so they have an awareness of like, I don't have capacity for certain things. Um, and so they're kind of like, No, they might not directly say that, but they kind of have a little bit more of an awareness of that. Um, I think in general, all nines do the self forgetting thing. All nines can have a kind of a hard time and like merging with different people. But, um, I think self preservations do that a little bit less. So, um, because they're really trying to maintain that, that sense of self and boundaries and comfort a little bit of how Missy, you described the nine wing one description that you found earlier, that sounded a little bit like the self preservation

Missy: 22:26

Uh huh.

Steph Barron Hall: 22:27

to me. Um, so then we have social and social nines care a lot about belonging and they kind of have this belief, uh, about the group. And like, I want to belong to the group and kind of like, if I'm not right in the thick of it, then I'll kind of cease to exist to anyone at all. So they kind of insert themselves there. Um, but they just join a lot of things. They tend, I mean, social nines have the most jobs. You know, the most volunteer things, the most everything, because they're always just doing something new. Um, and they tend to be fairly energetic, um, in terms of how the, the stereotype of type 9, um, because they always have like that joining kind of energy. They're, they're fun. They're chatty. They're sociable. Um. And so a lot of the time people don't realize how much social nines kind of forget themselves a little bit in the process, um, because they can kind of seem a little bit more, perhaps like a three, maybe like a two, a little bit. And then the sexual nine, um, is the nine that merges the most with other people. So they want to have one specific other person who they can really merge strongly and just like meld themselves into. Um, and. They tend to take on a lot of that person's identity and nines in general kind of do that with their significant other, but sexual nines in particular, do it a lot more. Um, so they can have like, that stronger sense of, of merging and connection with a specific other person. Um, and, um, They have a really hard time truly knowing themselves, sexual nines and sexual threes are the two subtypes that on the whole Enneagram that just cannot know themselves very well until they really start doing the work, um, because they have kind of had this pattern of, of forgetting themselves and merging completely melting into somebody else.

Missy: 24:19

Mm.

Susanne: 24:20

Ooh.

Missy: 24:20

to that a lot. Mm

Susanne: 24:23

Ooh, that might be, we're finally different, Missy. I think I'm the social.

Missy: 24:27

Oh, I think you are too. She was talking. Did you see me point at you? I was

Susanne: 24:30

Okay.

Missy: 24:32

yeah, yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 24:34

I, I don't like to like pigeonhole people, but when you were describing, you know, just your perspective, I was like, Oh, that sounds really like a social nine.

Susanne: 24:41

Yeah. I think so, which is also very funny because I usually would be like, I'm an introvert, but I'm very like, I'm a very joiner introvert. It's a very, I don't know. It's a contradiction, I'm sure.

Steph Barron Hall: 24:54

Yeah. But see, what do you think about yours?

Missy: 24:56

Well, I don't, I've, I recognize some of myself in the self preservation and I recognize some of myself in that sexual. Just that I get very. Very easily lost in whatever I'm part of at that time like I can I definitely feel like I take on Who I'm with But I don't yeah, I mean I tend to be involved in a lot of things too So at times I'm taking on different things when I'm in that room I'm that and when I'm in a different room, I'm that other thing No,

Steph Barron Hall: 25:32

makes sense. Um, yeah. And I think, you know, if, if especially for right now, if you're like, lady, I'm on a podcast, like, I don't, I don't need to go into all this right now. Um, you can just

Missy: 25:42

let's do it

Steph Barron Hall: 25:43

connecting with the nine wing one. Like I think if that's useful for you, um, I think in terms of the growth pathway, like it is, so I'll just give a couple of, um, quick examples. So for the self preservation nine, it's really about breaking out of that routine. A little bit like finding ways to break out of it and like challenging yourself a little bit to be more prep because, um, the routines allow self press nine to go on autopilot. So it's, it's about getting out of autopilot. Um, for social nines, it's about saying no. Being like, okay, I'm going to give myself some space and some time and some space for connection. Um, and like some rest, right. True rest. Like, what does that look like for you? So challenging that. And then for the sexual nine, it's really getting to know yourself. Um, a sexual nine friend of mine has started journaling. And if you've heard of like the artist's way, like I love that process.

Susanne: 26:40

I've got it

Steph Barron Hall: 26:40

Is it right there on your shelf? Yeah. Yeah.

Susanne: 26:45

it two and a half times.

Steph Barron Hall: 26:47

so I, I like that a lot because it really is kind of that way of just, stream of consciousness connecting, but also having your artist states right of like, and in some ways I'm like, What? How, how is this have time? And how are moms, especially, supposed to have time for that? But, um, like having that space to really connect with yourself and get to know yourself and what do you actually want and need from life?

Susanne: 27:15

I love that.

Missy: 27:16

really connect to that because I mean, Suzanne and I've talked about this on our own podcast many times. Years ago, a therapist asked me, what do you like? And I could not answer it. I was like, I don't, I don't know. And I've still struggled. Some I've worked really hard in the years since to identify. What I like, um, and just to speak up about it, speaking up about what I like is, was always really hard because I would go into a room and like what that person likes. and so, yeah, I really, I connect to that. I don't love it, but I connect to that.

Steph Barron Hall: 27:51

You watch Runaway Bride and you're like, what? Why is this my life? How do you like your eggs? Yeah,

Susanne: 28:01

Exactly. Oh, we love that example. We use that a lot.

Missy: 28:05

Uh huh. Yeah. How do you like your eggs? I'll, I'll have those. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 28:09

And then she's like, I don't

Missy: 28:10

I actually hate them.

Steph Barron Hall: 28:15

Well, so what is it like for you two then working together, two nines, you know, probably different subtypes. What is that like for you?

Missy: 28:25

I mean, we were thinking about it this last night and we were saying, like, on paper, it probably looks like a recipe for chaos, but somehow it works. Um, I don't, I don't know if, if we don't have drama because we avoid conflict or we just truly haven't had drama. I don't know. What do you think, Suzanne? Like, I think it has been pretty smooth.

Susanne: 28:47

I think so. And I think part of the not having drama has also just been because we're both pretty chill about it. And we had established pretty early on this idea of like the no stress zone. And I think we pretty much have an equal amount of like, Our, our pod usually goes live on Thursdays and it's like Wednesday at 11 p. m. One of us will be like, it's not going to happen. And, and we kind of alternate taking turns for like, why it's not going to happen. I said, my daughter just went to college last year, so things were a little bonkers that year and Missy's going through that. process right now with her son. And so I just have a lot of empathy for what that schedule looks like. And, you know, cause there's the prom, there's the getting the applications ready. There's the, all the things in your life just is not your own for. Well, let's be honest, since, since the umbilical cord got cut, but,

Missy: 29:47

2006,

Susanne: 29:48

but particularly that senior year of high school can be a little bit bananas. Um, so I think we're just pretty understanding with that. And we also know that like, There is probably nobody in the world who is sitting there on Thursday morning being like, Oh, the pod's late. And so,

Missy: 30:08

might notice if it didn't drop for months, but they're not waiting every Thursday.

Susanne: 30:12

yeah, so it's, I think we've taken it pretty easy on each other. And I think it helps probably that we had a solid core friendship before we started. And so that is more important than anything that would happen around the podcast. Um, but I think at least 10 times a week, we say, I have no idea. How we continue to do this on a weekly basis, not because we don't want to do it, but because like neither one of us is going to be mad if the other one doesn't do it or doesn't show up and we do kind of like to chill and rest and take a nap. And so it would be just so much easier to be like, you know, let's just, let's not do it this week. But until we took a little hiatus, um, for Missy's recovery, but, um, which I don't know if you want to share, I can, we can cut that out if

Missy: 31:01

no, that's fine. I'm fine talking about it. Yeah, absolutely.

Susanne: 31:04

so yeah, uh, Missy had a breast cancer diagnosis last fall. And so through the recovery for that, we, um, took a little hiatus and yeah, and I don't know where I was going with this, but, but, oh, but other than that, I mean, it's been every week, every week we've, uh, for the past four, three and a half

Missy: 31:27

we're in our fourth year. Yeah.

Susanne: 31:29

Yeah, so we do, we have, just as we're coming back from that hiatus, now we're doing every two weeks, but, um, it's,

Missy: 31:36

every two weeks. It's not always right on the dot every two weeks. And I think like it's a real gift to us to be able to do this. It's a privilege that we can find the time to do it and we take it seriously, but we don't take ourselves very seriously and we leave a lot of room for life. I mean, there's, I could have powered through after surgery and recorded and put out shows, but. There was no reason to do that. Like it was nice to take the time to rest and heal and, um, just take a break. And we're easing back into it and learning how to, to do it. I think, again, I think that's kind of been the situation in the last couple of months is we're learning to get back in that groove of just the jobs that go with putting out a podcast and that we're, we're relaxed about it.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:23

Yeah. I mean, here's the thing, Missy, this is why you don't want to be a three. Okay. Because recently I was talking to a friend and he was like, Oh yeah, you know, I just like did. He was like talking about extracurriculars. He did growing up and he's like, yeah, it was just like really low pressure. And I was sitting there. I was like that does not describe literally anything in my life.

Missy: 32:44

Hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:45

is absolutely nothing that is low pressure. And now I try to be really intentional about finding ways to be really low pressure. But it is an effort. Okay.

Missy: 32:57

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:58

release the pressure. And it sounds so nice because like one time I got a review that about my, um, upload schedule being inconsistent. And I, ever since then for a long time, I put so much pressure on myself. So yeah, sometimes I still wouldn't get the podcast out, but I would just, just so everyone knows, feel like total shit about it. Like, um, and now I think I I've kind of like relaxed that some, because I'm like, Well, I don't have capacity for everything. Um, but I really appreciate your approach to the podcast because, um, it's that expectation that life is busy and it's okay.

Susanne: 33:35

yeah, and it, well, it does help that that's kind of the whole theme of our podcast is, you know, we interview these career coaches about setting boundaries and really having, knowing those limits and And setting those expectations with people around you and like Missy said, we do take it really seriously. Um, I think that we do a really good job with it. Um, but we do We also know that we have lives and people, hopefully, if our listeners are taking anything that any of our guests or us say to heart, then they will appreciate that. Ooh, yeah, if, if they, if it was late, they had a reason, um, and, and I'm glad that they, they took that time for themselves or whatever, or, or took care of their kid's issue, um, versus feeling like they needed to crush it to get the podcast released exactly on time.

Steph Barron Hall: 34:23

Yeah. That makes sense to me. I like that. I have been reading this book called Feel Good Productivity by Ali Abdaal. He's one of my favorite YouTubers. Um, so, and I've been loving his book, but he talks about be sincere and not serious. So like approach things with sincerity, which is what you're doing, right? You're, you're saying like, I'm sincere about wanting to put out this really awesome podcast, um, and share these different voices. But. I'm not going to take it too seriously. And it makes it a little bit lighter.

Missy: 34:56

Yeah. Yeah. And we've set it up. I, some of it intentionally and some of it I think has just happened to us for us, but we've set it up in such a way that we are. Are not beholden to anybody. We don't have a producer waiting on us. We do this all ourselves. We're not taking money from anyone. So we don't have that pressure of, Oh, we have advertisers who are expecting us to do this. And maybe one day we will pivot and do that. Um, and we'll have to be ready to make that change because it will look very different, but we have set it up in such a way that we can really drive the boat. And sometimes we like the boat to be just. Anchored and chillin and we can take a nap on the boat.

Steph Barron Hall: 35:39

I love it. I love

Susanne: 35:40

ha! Let's drive our boat into a cove.

Missy: 35:44

Yeah, we're just gonna hang out here for a while. Our boat just hung out all fall and it was okay.

Susanne: 35:50

It is not a speedboat.

Missy: 35:52

No, no, it's a pontoon for sure.

Steph Barron Hall: 35:55

Oh, that sounds lovely, delightful.

Susanne: 36:00

Now you make me want to go take a nap.

Steph Barron Hall: 36:02

yeah,

Missy: 36:04

thing is the thing I think I railed against hardest with nines. I did not like that and At the same time, I acknowledge that I am a person who needs my rest and when I'm overwhelmed, I shut down and go to a nap. Um, and I hate that about myself and I really did not want to face that. And then now it's just, I understand why I am that way, or at least I acknowledge it. And now I own it a little more and say, I, I need to rest because I cannot function if I don't shut down for a little while.

Susanne: 36:37

Yeah, and actually that was one of the things that I had. a hard time figuring out like behavior versus motivation about because I do have a thyroid issue, which does, I mean, that does impact energy levels. And, uh, so for a long time, I was like, well, does it just mean my thyroid levels low or do I really need to take a nap? And And I did realize that it was just like in moments of stress when I didn't want to deal with a particular thing, or if there was just, especially in the state of our world, political landscapes, whatever, it's just sometimes you're just like, yeah, I, my, my brain, my heart can't take any more of this right now. And I just need to shut it down.

Missy: 37:21

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 37:22

What are some ways that you've found that you can truly feel refreshed and revitalized and rested? Hahahahaha. Mmhmm,

Missy: 37:34

if I have an answer for this.

Susanne: 37:37

I think, well, we'll see, spring break is next week. So I do find vacations. It's really weird. And I, I had this back in my full time working life. And now that I'm back in my contract work, I'm really good at like switching off. Like my work, Suzanne is very like, I get stuff done. I got deadlines. You know, I don't want to let anybody down. I don't want to let my clients down. There's, you know, it's very project management in the advertising space, where if I don't do my part, I'm throwing off for other people's parts. Um, but then as soon as I get to that airport or I'm in the car driving away, it's like, what job? Like, I just, it's very turn on, turn off. So I do feel like just getting. out of whatever that environment is. Um, so vacations definitely do it for me. Um, but even just like, well, it's hard working from home now. Um, you know, it's not just stepping out of the office trying to make that barrier from, I'm not at the computer anymore. I can shut my brain down and enjoy my family, chill out and watch some Netflix. Um, but yeah, good nap. I love a good nap and really walking. Um, but taking hikes, which you would think would make you more tired, um, is really helpful for me.

Missy: 39:05

Yeah. I think for me it is exercise. Um, I make sure I do something every day. Sometimes it's not really hardcore. I'm not doing anything crazy, but something, um, I can't think about really anything else while I'm doing that. So that's good for my brain. And, um, yeah, I think. It doesn't even have to be going away on vacation. Just something out of the routine helps me. So if we go see live music, we're not big live music people, to be honest, but, um, you know, but you can do that here in Austin. So you're like, oh, well, let's just go sit somewhere and listen to something or go see a comedian or, um, you know, just go to a movie, which I haven't done in a while. But as Suzanne was talking, I was like, I have to get back to that. Going just out of the routine and doing something a little bit different, that takes enough of my focus that I can't be in my head thinking about what else I need to be doing.

Steph Barron Hall: 40:00

Yeah. Yeah. That can be really hard and I think especially the past few years, um, it is, it's been really hard to kind of step out of that processing because we've been in all this vigilance and kept thinking, okay, it's going to get so much easier. And then it didn't. And in fact, now everything just feels hard. Yeah.

Missy: 40:25

right,

Susanne: 40:25

Yes. I was just thinking of that this morning because we're basically at the, what year is it? The four year anniversary of when. At least when we're recording this, of when the COVID stuff really went down, and so I've been hearing more and more about that, but just that idea of like, there's no more excuses anymore. For, there was a couple year period of time, if you didn't want to do something, or you didn't want to take something on, or you didn't want to commit your kid to this particular activity. There, I mean, there was a, just a universal understanding of like, yes, that's fine if you don't want to do that thing. And now there's no more excuses anymore for turning something down or not participating in something. Your excuse has to be something that you advocate for on your own behalf. And, you know, so, Again, as in Enneagram 9, it was nice having those excuses because you never had to like say no or, um, explain to someone why you were quote unquote letting them down by not doing something.

Steph Barron Hall: 41:30

Yeah, I was just listening to, um, this book by actually a guest that I've had on the podcast, Dr. Aditi Neerakar, um, and she talks about five resets and, um, so five resets to reset your life, stress, resilience, um, burnout, all those sorts of things. So. One of the things that she talked about is how during the pandemic, initially we first thought, Oh, it's going to be quick. Right. It's going to be a couple of weeks.

Missy: 41:54

Two weeks.

Steph Barron Hall: 41:55

And then we thought, okay, maybe a little bit longer. And then there was all this messaging. Okay. Once this is over, we're just going to like celebrate and everything's going to be amazing. So like painting this really beautiful picture of the future. But during that moment, most of us, you know, we buckled down, we like made things happen. We got through it expecting once we weren't under pressure anymore. Things would be fine. But what happens when you're under pressure for a long time, right? Like you get through it and then all of a sudden after your big presentation or whatever you get sick

Susanne: 42:26

Mm hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 42:27

And your your body your immune system, whatever is like, okay now I can like have this delayed stress response and I think that's really insightful because I mean, we kind of had this collective experience of that. Um, and it makes sense because I've talked to so many people in the last year in particular who've been facing a lot of burnout, um, myself included, and I think that that makes sense. Mm-Hmm.

Susanne: 42:53

Yeah.

Missy: 42:55

Yeah. I do think, like, to your point, like everything feels like it never got un hardd. You know, it, there was not a moment of a collective sigh and I think we envisioned like ripping the masks off and going back to life. And the reality is we have gone back to life, but we never, we never had that full reset. We've never gotten to relax really. And um, you know, here we are four years on and there's still a lot going on out in the world and there's still a lot of things to consider. Nothing feels, I was looking at pictures because I have a son who's a senior and I have to like turn in pictures for senior slideshows and stuff. So I was looking at pictures from the last 18 years and I felt as I got to 2019 and 2020, I felt my chest tighten and I was like, this is the last, this is it. This was the end. And everything after that, even though if you're looking at most of the pictures, you don't see a difference. I just know like everything after that is in a different place. And a different world. And we are all different people. It's overwhelming.

Steph Barron Hall: 44:05

It's,

Susanne: 44:07

Whew. We're getting deep. We're getting deep. We're getting deep. We're getting deep.

Missy: 44:11

Sorry. Y'all got that. Cause that was on my mind yesterday as I'm pulling pictures, you know, crying about baby pictures and then like, Oh my God. You're like,

Steph Barron Hall: 44:19

Mm-Hmm.

Susanne: 44:20

yeah, it

Missy: 44:22

son's birthday's in March and I'm like, this was his birthday and the next day the world shut down, you know, like,

Susanne: 44:28

parenting through COVID is a whole different lens. And I can't even imagine what it's like for parents of littles, but, uh, we both had kiddos in these high school years. And I was just talking to my son who is going into high school and I was like, and he's going to the same high school his sister went to. And I was like, I get to actually experience. It's a high school experience. I mean, I kind of mourned that for myself. I mourned it for her, but I also mourned it for myself of like, we didn't, you know, a lot of kids didn't get proms. They didn't get these dances. They didn't get to go to the school plays or the games or, and just, or just interact, go on dates. Like it was just, it's just, I mean, yeah, it's, it's a whole different thing, but, um, Yeah. It's, it's nice to be on the other side of it and like this fresh start with him. I'm like, Oh, I get to experience this. But then it also just is a reminder of like, Oh, to be gentle with those people who didn't necessarily have that or experienced it

Missy: 45:31

all went through some stuff.

Susanne: 45:32

Yeah. Yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 45:34

Yeah.

Susanne: 45:35

four years, whoo!

Missy: 45:37

Yeah. And it seems like yesterday, I know that's such a trite thing to say, but it really, I feel it very, like viscerally, I can put myself right there right now.

Susanne: 45:46

I can still feel the Clorox wipes washing down my cereal boxes!

Steph Barron Hall: 45:54

Yes. Oh, wow. Yeah. What a time. Um, I, I'm curious. You know, just thinking too about your types, if you feel like that has impacted the way that you've navigated this at all.

Missy: 46:09

I, without a doubt, although I haven't, I haven't looked at it like that before, but you know, I, in times of stress. I go to that six and my anxiety was through the roof through all of this and I catastrophized and I would think of, I was planning and preparing so that when the worst happened, we would be ready. We had the Clorox wipe set up at the station in the garage for the groceries and the, you know, and really, I felt at times I felt really lonely because people who are not. In a sixth place in stress, we're not doing the same mental gymnastics I was doing. And so they would be sometimes more chill about the whole thing than I was, you know, they would just, they didn't seem to have that fear and they seemed ready to go back to real life sooner than I was. Um, yeah, I hadn't really looked at it like that before, but as I think about it, For sure. And I rested like a boss during that time. I took a lot of naps.

Steph Barron Hall: 47:11

Ha ha ha ha. Oh,

Susanne: 47:16

know, I really, I think I did a disservice to my poor kids because I did kind of, I Alternated between being hyper, you know, the six research catastrophizing and everything, and then just totally, I don't want to say totally checking out. There was a lot of bourbon consumed evenings. I mean, there was a lot of, Oh, what was that weird guy? I thought he had the alligators, or who was

Missy: 47:44

No, Tiger King?

Susanne: 47:46

Tiger King!

Missy: 47:48

Yeah, we did watch a lot of things we would never ever watch

Susanne: 47:51

Oh, yeah, I mean, that was the time of Tiger King, yeah, I mean, I could get a old fashioned and some Tiger King and just like, kids are in bed, okay, just, I'm gonna pretend the world doesn't exist anymore, um,

Missy: 48:05

definitely numbed out all those feelings.

Susanne: 48:07

yeah, and that, uh, that's something that, uh, I, I

Missy: 48:11

both have cut back or quit drinking and But it ramped up so much during that time and it was numbing. It was a numbing behavior for

Susanne: 48:20

Yeah, it's bad, bad habit, and it took a while to recognize it. And I think there probably were a lot of habits that were developed during that time, and I'm sure it depends on what your type is, what you gravitated towards, but I think both of us were just that. numbing, whether through excessive napping or when you had to be present, having an extra glass of wine to numb out. Um, or in my case, I also would try to make myself really busy doing six things, which would help you be able to be like, Oh, I'm very focused on this spreadsheet of the best Clorox wipe for, you know, killing these germs. And that will keep me from thinking about like, what what impact this is having on the rest of the world, my family, my kids. Um, so yeah, very avoidance, very avoidance.

Steph Barron Hall: 49:11

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense and all of these things. I mean, none of them are like bad, right? Because it's what you needed to get through it. I mean, You did it. I mean, I don't really think it's probably good to drink a lot of alcohol, but I know that that was a, uh, a coping mechanism. A lot of people use myself included. And yeah, I've since stopped drinking, um, entirely, but. Yeah.

Susanne: 49:37

Yeah.

Missy: 49:38

It's crazy. When I look back on it, I can't believe that that was, that, that was how I was coping and that was how we were living our lives. And I wonder what my children absorbed from that. But yeah, it started as, you know, like the most of the world, I think this is two weeks. It's like, we'll treat it kind of like vacation, even though it is in no way a vacation, but we'll treat it that way so that our brains can cope. And then the vacation never ended. And then it was just the habit of avoidance things or filling our time with weirdness and topping it off with a bourbon and not great, not great,

Susanne: 50:18

We still have our habit of watching Survivor or Amazing Race in front of the TV while we eat dinner. We're like, we always used to have family dinner at the table and then we're like, Oh, this is, you know, trying to distract the kids too, which is, you know, a horrible modeling for the future generation and be like, Mommy needs to distract herself. So I'm going to distract you too. And we're going to. Fun. We're gonna have pizza in front of the TV. And so that will keep

Missy: 50:42

For

Susanne: 50:43

that the world is on fire. Four years later, we're still, my kids are like, are we ever going to go back to the table again? In fact, they think it's just such a treat when we eat at the table like

Missy: 50:57

Oh, no, mine ask what's wrong, who died. Like, I'm like, we're all gonna have dinner together. They're like, do you have news for us or something? Like, what's the, what's the deal? And I'm like, no, I just thought we'd look at each other and have a meal. They're like, that's the worst. Why are we doing that? Yeah. Yeah.

Susanne: 51:13

teenagers.

Missy: 51:14

can we please watch TV? Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 51:19

if, if you guys have any advice for people who are embarking on this self discovery journey, they just learned there are nine, what tips do you have for them?

Susanne: 51:30

Don't be afraid of your nineness. Um, but no, my biggest thing was really just focusing on the intention versus the behavior and knowing that if you're just having a hard time typing. any type that you are. Um, and I've, I also, um, make sure you do not distract yourself from having to get really deep and uncomfortable about understanding yourself by going around and trying to type all your friends. I spent a lot of time instead of like, Oh, forget about me. Let's see, what is my husband? What is my mom? What is my whatever. Um, so that would be just in general, some of my advice as far as. I mean, it is uncomfortable, but it, you know, it, it takes some work, but I think it's worth it to help understanding yourself.

Missy: 52:18

Yeah, my favorite advice I got while I was going through it was don't just take quizzes and try to figure out what you are. Some of them are very good. Some of them are probably fairly accurate. But a quiz can only do so much and you really need to read and delve into it. There are a lot of great podcasts out there with people who are discussing it. Listen, like, listen. Download some podcasts, take some time, listen, listen to other people. If you think you're a nine, listen to other nines talk. I mean, that's really when I came around to it was hearing other nines and me going, Oh, those are my motivations as well. And letting, letting all that information in is overwhelming. Like you do have to give yourself space for that, but give yourself the room and just do it

Steph Barron Hall: 53:06

Yeah.

Susanne: 53:07

Get uncomfortable.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:09

Yeah. Ooh. That's not, not the most fun for a nine.

Susanne: 53:13

Well, yeah, there's a reason it took us a few months. I mean, because by the time we had you on that first episode, I think we had been talking about it. For at least a month or so and I still was kind of going back and forth and I think even after you came like I was still like, I'm not sure that this is right. So,

Missy: 53:31

I want to say as recently as six ish months ago, I don't know, maybe some, it was maybe one of the last recordings we did before I had surgery. You said, Oh, I might be a six. I think I'm a six again. Like that was not long ago.

Susanne: 53:45

yeah, because, um, Going back to work was such a behavior shift. And so I was really, so it was like, I'm doing a bunch of different things or doing a bunch of things differently, um, than I have for the past, however many years. Um, And so, yeah, I've, going back to work has been a real trip in the sense of realizing how many, or how important it is for me to have external motivation in terms of a paycheck or the rest of the team or your client relying on you, and just trying to take a deeper look at like the way that I'm handling the new working Suzanne and, you know, Yeah. I was just trying to make sure that like everything that I was doing behavior wise, the reason behind the behavior was still in line with what I had typed myself as. And I know that Enneagram is different than some things. Um, I know you've said that it is more permanent throughout life. It isn't just something that, yeah, when you go back to work, you're going to become this new type. Whereas, you know, maybe a Myers Briggs or something may shift throughout your life. Um, so I. I was like, certainly going back to work didn't completely change me. And I don't think it did, but there was a time there when I was just so out of my regular routine that it was making me question, like, how much of my behavior was a type versus how much of it was just like, I had a lot of extra time on my hands, so I had time for a nap. And so, yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 55:21

I mean, I think that the subtypes can be really helpful in helping you understand that too. Um, because it really helps explain some of the differences. Um, yeah. And I think that's really helpful, though I will say overall, sixes and nines have the hardest time finding their type. Um, and I think in particular, the self preservation six, um, can get confused with type nine a lot. Um, like Missy, as you were talking, I was like, Hmm, I think if, if we were doing a typing interview, I might be curious about self preservation six. Um, Because I mean, hearing that you, you know, heard these panels and stuff and heard the nine motivation and that that made a lot of sense to you. That makes sense to me why you landed at nine. But I'm not surprised that you thought you were a six for a while first.

Susanne: 56:12

Interesting. Now you're going to make her go back and

Missy: 56:14

I know. It

Susanne: 56:14

again.

Missy: 56:15

to go back.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:17

Oh, no. Oh, no.

Susanne: 56:19

The

Steph Barron Hall: 56:19

I'll send you some info.

Missy: 56:22

Okay. Good. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:23

but.

Missy: 56:24

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:24

yeah, I think that that makes sense. And I think that what you both shared is really helpful just about like going into that discomfort, um, for all of us, I think can often be helpful though. You know, I, I, sometimes we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to get way too uncomfortable. And I think just baby steps are really helpful, um, is, is what I've found. But, um, I have two last questions before we get to where everyone can find you.

Susanne: 56:51

All right.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:52

Um, so I'll, I'll give you each a chance to answer. So tell me about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year.

Missy: 57:02

Okay. Well, we laughed about this cause both of us were like deer in the headlights. We were like, have we ever read a book? And we, both of us read or listen to probably one or two a week, you know, like, are there any books? I don't know. Um, but the first one that popped in my head was, um, devotions by Mary Oliver, which is just a collection of all of Mary Oliver, not all of it, but a lot of her poetry, um, read it before. And I've been spending a lot of time with it in the last six months or so, and I just love her.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:32

So good.

Susanne: 57:32

I still need to read that. You've mentioned that before. I need to.

Missy: 57:35

Yeah.

Susanne: 57:37

Okay, well, mine is, uh, Radiant Rebellion by Karen Walrund, and it's all about this idea of flipping the idea of aging on its head, where most people see it as a season of decline. Um, and, um, I just love Karen. She always seems to be writing a book just for me, like when I was starting to get burned out for a bunch of advocacy, all my advocacy work a few years ago, she had a book called Light Makers Manifesto that was, I think the subheading of it was working for change without losing your joy, um, which I really needed at that time. And then now during menopause and entering fifties, uh, this book is just awesome. It's all about like. Approaching your after 50 years with this sense of adventure and getting curious about yourself and getting curious about life. And it's so much about what we do on our podcast and aligned with that, that I just loved it. And so I can't wait to see what our next book is going to be. It's like she plans my future for me based on whatever she's writing about.

Steph Barron Hall: 58:46

That's awesome. I love that. I'll have to check that out. Um, okay. Finally, what is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Missy: 58:53

I told Suzanne, I guess I've never received any advice ever. Uh, but then when I, the next thing that popped in my head was silly, but it was advice not really given to me. It was given to anyone listening to a makeup tutorial. The woman said back away from the magnifying mirror. Um, but I have carried that with me, not just in doing, I'm not, I mean, look at me, I don't makeup is not really my thing. Um, but I thought to me, I flipped it to just, I don't need to put everything under the magnifying mirror. I don't need to examine everything that closely. Sometimes you just need to go and do and be without being so hypercritical, I guess. Uh, so I think about that a lot. I don't need to be so critical of myself.

Steph Barron Hall: 59:43

Yeah. I

Susanne: 59:45

Ooh, I like that one.

Steph Barron Hall: 59:46

do.

Missy: 59:47

What about you, Suzanne? Oh, yeah. In order to put on any makeup, I need it when

Susanne: 59:56

and I'm like, how, how have I even got a mascara on my eyes until now? Like see, I'm saying go, go into the magnifying mirror, but no,

Missy: 1:00:07

you're doing your makeup.

Susanne: 1:00:08

why don't you do your makeup?

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:09

Makeup only.

Susanne: 1:00:10

The only makeup. Uh, let's see. I'm. I'm. just happened to be yesterday. I was listening to Glennon Doyle's podcast and she was talking about, you know, all the wars going on and everything that, where it is really tempting, especially if you're an Enneagram nine to just shut down. Um, and she had this great quote of like, Don't let what you can't do keep you from doing what you can do. So this idea of like, oh, well, I'm not going to solve the Middle East crisis by, you know, donating or whatever. It's like, well, no, but you can, you can help certain things. But I think that applies to so many different areas in your life, not just. charitable organizations, but um, even just those little actions that you can take in your life that can have eventually a really big effect. Um, so don't focus on all the reasons you're doing something wrong, or it's not quite right, or you don't have enough information. Just like take that step and, and do what you can.

Missy: 1:01:16

like that.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:01:18

I like that too. Um, those are so great. Um, and I think especially that, that advice to do what you can is great for social subtypes in particular. Might find that really helpful.

Susanne: 1:01:28

Yes.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:01:29

Um, all right. Well, where can everyone find you?

Susanne: 1:01:35

Apparently, you better go to our website

Missy: 1:01:37

Website is spelled out.

Susanne: 1:01:40

yeah, it's momandpodcast. com. So that's the website where you can go to and it's and spelled out M O M A N D podcast. Um, but yes, if you are going into Spotify or you're going right into the Apple, sometimes they can be a little buggery about, um, being able to find us. First of all, cause there's a bazillion podcasts that start with mom. So, um, Not a shame on us, Missy. We should have thought of that. But, um, but then also some of them like the ampersand, some of them like A N D spelled out. So probably the easiest way. We've got links to all the different locations just from the website that can get you started and pointed in the right direction. Then you can subscribe from there.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:02:24

Perfect. All right. I will link it in the show notes and everyone can check out your awesome podcast.

Missy: 1:02:30

Thank you. Thank you for having us. This

Steph Barron Hall: 1:02:32

so much for joining me.

Susanne: 1:02:33

And you know what? I got to tell you, just, um, I think still your podcast is one of, uh, if not number one in the top two of our all time listened to podcasts. Yes. So yeah, people love, love the Enneagram. They loved you. Um, so it was a really great way to start off our, our journey together. It's kind of fun to have you, uh, reconnecting after. You were, you helped us get started off on the right foot, so we appreciate that.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:03:04

Of course. Thanks so much. Thanks for joining me. Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify