1:55

Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in real life. A podcast that will help you go beyond any grand theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Baron hall, creator of nine types co on Instagram, author of the Enneagram in love, accredited Enneagram, professional, and ennea curious human, just like you be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram and your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now onto the show.

Steph Barron Hall 2:26

Hello and welcome back to Ngram in Real Life, where we explore how to apply our Ngram knowledge in our daily lives. And I'm Steph.

Heidi 2:36

And I'm Heidi.

Steph Barron Hall 2:37

And today we are starting our brand new format with Heidi joining me, with the hosting duties here. So, if you miss our intro episode or you wanna hear more about both of us, you can go back to, episode one of season three in your podcast app. we shared a little bit more about, you know, kind of why, well, I don't know if I really shared why I decided to, Not be a solo host anymore, but mostly it's because one, it's a little bit boring, like I really like having somebody else to chat with. And so even doing the intros, it's so much easier to do it with a friend. So, and also Heidi has been working with me for about two and a half years, supporting me with Instagram and email and all the other things, within my business and the podcast included. And so through that process, Heidi also, Join, Chestnut Pies Ne Academy. And so we talked a little bit about that and everything, in our intro episode. So yeah, so welcome Heidi to, to doing this, crazy adventure with me.

Heidi 3:40

Yeah, I'm so excited. It's been fun so far.

Steph Barron Hall 3:43

Yeah. Um, we'll just, we'll see how it goes, but I think that I'm really excited to be able to, to kind of expand things a little bit. Um, so it's fun for me. And we also have new segment. So our very first segment this week will be our types in real life. So Heidi, how have you seen your type for show up this week?

Heidi 4:04

Yeah. Ooh. Um, I definitely noticed my type patterns. Um, I mean, just even talking with my husband or talking with a friend, um, this week, if it was something really heavy, like I love getting into the deep stuff I do, but also I never until like more recently realize how much I'm taking in and bringing into like myself and, um, I know like, It, yeah, it goes into a bigger thing of interjection, which is the defense mechanism for type four. And so that's like a whole big thing. But um, yeah, just learning to like, keep everything just outside of like my, like, oh, this sounds so weird. Like my heart really, like not bringing everything in. And when I, when someone's talking to me, just like listening, like don't, like bring it in. See how I would experience it, you know, just listening. So yeah, that's how I saw my type. What about you?

Steph Barron Hall 5:04

Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's really useful. I think it's so important to be able to observe it that way. so for me, for type three, I think it's, Well, I'll just say we are recording these intros out of order, and on the last intro, Heidi brought this idea of, being okay with letting. Other people see us trying. and I think for me, it's really hard for me to like let people see me struggle. Like I want to get to a point where I'm like proficient enough at something that I can let people see it. And I think a way that I've seen my type show up this week, is really that in like wanting everything to be perfect and polished and the entire endeavor of having an Instagram account or a podcast episode. For me, there's always been this edge of like, wanting a sense of perfection and in a lot of ways I would put in like double effort, to kind of push it past that point. I've, I've heard this thing before where it's like it takes the same amount of effort to like go the last 10% or the last 5% as it. Does to go like the first 90%. and if you're the type of person who always wants things to be at that level of, you know, completion or execution, you end up kind of exhausting yourself a lot. And so it's been a process of allowing a little bit more. rough edges and in some ways, like I think what I see as rough edges, other people see as like, oh, it's so relatable that you like, stumbled in your intro. You like said something wrong or you used the wrong word, or, or whatever it is. And instead of, you know, redoing something a few times to get it perfect of just allowing it to be as it is. and so that's just definitely been a concerted effort over the last number of years. Um, my very first podcast episodes. I would delete ums or I would redo something time and again, so I never said, um,

Heidi 6:57

Yeah. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall 6:58

and now I'm just like, that's, that's part of being a human is sometimes saying, um, so yeah, that's how I've seen my type show up.

Heidi 7:07

Yeah. No, I, I really love that. Um, okay. And we also have a second segment idea of the week. So Steph, what are you into this week? What are you learning? What are you thinking about? Um, yeah, I'm curious.

Steph Barron Hall 7:21

Yeah, so this week I have been listening to this book called Neuro DMA by Rick Hansen. Um, and it's actually, he is a psychologist, I believe. and he, he talks a lot about the neuroscience of mindfulness and meditation and all that sort of stuff, and it's just fascinating and I love. Listening to it because he has meditations throughout it. Um, and I listened to, to him on a podcast as well. And his big thing is like, you know, he, he was talking about gratitude lists, for example. and how important gratitude lists are for like, wellbeing. And so many of them, so many of us do them wrong. So, Many of us, and myself included in the past, it's like, oh, I have to make this stupid gratitude list yet again. What am I grateful for my dog? Like? So this whole thing is like, instead of just going through the emotions, um, finding something genuine, maybe you had like a shit week, but you can find one genuine thing. so finding something genuine. And actually feeling it, like experiencing the emotion that it brings up in you, um, to experience that thing. So if it's like, oh, I'm so grateful for the specific thing. So that's the other thing is specificity for, for, for him. So, um, I'm so grateful for way that my dog greeted me when I came home from work yesterday, and like remembering how that felt and like writing that down. So it's, it's really important to, um, Re-experience that emotional, you know, moment. and that's actually what builds, you know, that sense of gratitude and, and overall wellbeing. Um, and so his whole thing in this book, neuro DMA and, and other work that he's published is about actually doing it. Like, it's not just about gaining information, which is, you know, definitely a propensity that I have. but it's about actually applying everything in real time. So, Yeah, I loved that concept.

Heidi 9:25

that's really good. I like that.

Steph Barron Hall 9:27

yeah. So what are you into this week?

Heidi 9:29

There's a documentary on Netflix, called Stutz, and it's really just walking through Jonah Hills, journey back to like getting really. yeah, like a good sense of mental health and like showing his journey and also showing, his therapist, Phil Stutz, his journey through, his younger years and how he came to, um, create these tools to help his clients and his patients. And, one of the tools that he uses is called the Pyramid of Relationship. And I think it's really just, how to kind of create a basis of like, good, like mental health and at the bottom, what I really took away was like a good foundation is like the body. so like getting exercise, like, um, like, you know, as much as you're able, you know, just getting out there, um, moving your body and like how much of a foundation that that can create for a good, like, mental health. And I thought that was like, that's, that's the biggest take away. And then like, As you go up, there's like people grabbing coffee with a friend, you know, community and then yourself, and like writing, journaling, things like that. But yeah, what really I took away was how, um, like if I can get up and move, like I should do that because that, I mean, there's a whole bunch of studies too, you know, like how helpful that is. So yeah, that's what I took away and I, I wanna start implementing that more. So, yeah.

Steph Barron Hall 10:57

Yeah. I love it. I love that perspective and I, I. I've been avoiding watching that documentary. I don't know why, but I think I really should. I think I would love it. But there, there are so many, like you said, there are so many great studies about that. and, and two like, uh, things like studies around depression and like behavioral activation, which, just, you know, implementing these basic things and one of them, a big one is exercise and also interestingly, There's a lot of research around ADHD and the impact of different types of exercise on the executive functions. so I honestly, because my ADHD has been like, when I'm stressed, it's, it's worse, you know? So lately I've been like, okay, I gotta, I gotta do this, you know, I got, and I think it's actually really helped. sometimes it's a little bit of a time crunch. To, to get it in there, but it's like really helps to, to get more exercise. Do you have a favorite type of exercise?

Heidi 11:53

honestly, I've just been doing some weight lifting, although I wouldn't say I enjoy that. but my, something I wanna get into my mom, she. Does pickleball, she plays pickleball every day. She, she just did like the senior games. Like she's, she's so, like, she's all about competing. She loves it. That's what she loves. She does like volleyball and senior games. So anyways, I really wanna start getting into pickleball. I think that's been growing more and more, so I think that would be really fun to do.

Steph Barron Hall 12:25

Okay, well when I'm in Austin, maybe we should come play pickleball because, my mom also got me into pickleball and so anytime, I mean, it's been raining a ton lately, but like anytime it's sunny, I like. My husbandry and I, we just go out and we play

Heidi 12:39

I love it. It's so fun. Yeah, I agree.

Steph Barron Hall 12:42

I mean, it's kind of frustrating cuz he played tennis for 15

Heidi 12:46

Oh, okay. Yeah. No,

Steph Barron Hall 12:47

I'm, I'm just like running all over the court, but it's not, it's really

Heidi 12:51

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Steph Barron Hall 12:53

but I love that you brought that up because it kind of is this theme and I have a feeling we're gonna be talking about this theme a lot on the podcast, but, um, today we're talking with, uh, Guest Taylor Elise Morrison. And she's a coach and a consultant and a teacher, but she's really developed some really cool, tools to work on self-care. And so, Taylor Elise Morrison. Turned being bad at self-care and being firmly convinced of every human's potential into a career. which she is an Engram three, and we'll get into that. But this makes a lot of sense when you know that she is the founder of Media Company in her workout and the author of a book by the same name recently named one of Fortune's 10 innovators shaping the Future of Health. Taylor is tired of aspirational wellness as usual. Instead, she builds businesses, content and experiences that make wellbeing and personal development more accessible. You're just as likely to see Taylor facilitating a workshop at a Fortune 100 company as you are to see her talking about TikTok and body image with a high school class wherever she goes. Taylor's sure to use her coaching, mindfulness and movement training to meet people where they're at and offer actionable steps towards creating a world without burnout. So today we're gonna be talking with Taylor about her brand new book, which is called Inner Workout Strengthening Self-Care Practices for Healing Body, soul, and Mind. and this was such a great interview. I, I just love hearing from her three who's like been doing her work and can really teach us all about that. So I love it.

Heidi 14:30

um, before we jump into the interview, um, I figured we'd want to introduce the five dimensions of wellbeing that we talk about in this interview. Um, the five dimensions of wellbeing is a framework that Taylor developed to address a more comprehensive concept of self-care. And so Steph, if you want to kind of introduce the first one, we can go ahead and talk about that.

Steph Barron Hall 14:51

Sure. We've already chatted a little bit about it, but the first one is physical. So the dimension explores how well you know and care for your own body.

Heidi 14:59

Yeah, and then there's energetic and this dimension focuses on your breath and how you relate to energy in your daily life.

Steph Barron Hall 15:06

And then number three is mental and emotional. This dimension looks at what comes into and flows out of your mind. And then number four is wisdom. So this dimension explores your relationship to your own inner knowledge.

Heidi 15:18

Yeah. And the last one is bliss, and this dimension explores your connection to yourself and to the world around you.

Steph Barron Hall 15:25

So today we're gonna talk a little bit more about those, but you can also find more about these dimensions, order her book, and take her free self-care assessment on her website, which is www.innerworkout.co. Also linked in the show notes. So without further ado, Here is our interview with Taylor Elise Morrison. Okay. Well, welcome to the podcast, tey. I'm so excited to be talking with you today about this topic, and I know that you have many gems to share with our listeners.

Taylor Elise Morrison 15:59

Thank you for having me. I'm super excited. I've been looking forward to this all day.

Steph Barron Hall 16:04

Good, I'm so glad. Yeah, of course. I think, um, you know, we're gonna be talking about your book a lot today and I've talked with a number of, of authors on the podcast and one thing that I think is really cool about it is, Most people like yourself. The book is not about the Enneagram, but it is like related. So it's fun because you get to talk about your book, but you also get to talk about the Enneagram, which is kind of like a fun little fusion of, of both things.

Taylor Elise Morrison 16:30

Yeah, and the Enneagram is probably, it was one of the most pivotal foundational frameworks and like me getting to know myself, especially as an adult. And so I do talk about it a little bit in the book of being Agram three, but it's also like, like you said, it's just infused in it because it, it informed the way I went about writing it.

Steph Barron Hall 16:54

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so tell us about yourself. Who are you? You wrote this book about the, like self-care and like inner warmup. Tell us all about your ethos with that, um, and how that fuses with your type.

Taylor Elise Morrison 17:09

Yeah. So where to begin I guess I'm Taylor. I'm based in Chicago, uh, where I live with my husband and I really needy dog. He is being so clingy today. Um, I left him in our bed though, so hopefully he'll. He'll chill during this recording. And I own a company called Inner Workout where I say I help people build the skill of self-care. And now I have a book coming out also called Inner Workout. And it's really funny because I feel like my threeness, so I am a three wing four, and I see that. Shaping the way that I went about writing this book, building this business, and not because it was like three I need to achieve and get a book deal. It was like I am doing way, way, way too much, and I keep burning myself out, which. Can be a very three thing to happen. I'm overloading myself. And then I would do the thing of like, let me just take a quick little break and I'll get a massage or something. And then I'd go back into this life that was overstuffed and it was like, Hmm, this way that I'm approaching self-care right now, is it working? I need to fundamentally, fundamentally like change the way I'm structuring and approaching my life.

Steph Barron Hall 18:26

Wow. So that. Is so interesting to me because it doesn't seem to me like a book would be the answer. So why did that happen for

Taylor Elise Morrison 18:36

Yeah. Well, what really happened was that I. Started. It started on a Sunday night when I was really trying to plan out my week and just feeling more and more overwhelmed. I took a bath and set aside my phone and my laptop for the night, and it felt so good that that became really like my first self-care ritual was Sunday nights. I wind down. I have space just for me not worrying about what I need to accomplish and. I started to want to access that feeling, not just on Sunday nights, but at different points in my day and my week, and over time I developed this definition of self-care that I use in the business and in the book, which is that self-care is listening within and responding in the most loving way possible, which for me as a three was like, It really changed the game. Self-care used to be check, check, check. Did I do all of these things? Can I see that I accomplished all of this? And that it shifted into no self-care is a conversation. What do I need today and how can I give that to myself? And so the more that I started doing that work myself, I started talking about it with other people. And other people would say, Hey, I'm struggling with self-care too. The way that the mainstream is talking about self-care isn't working. And so eventually that it turned into a business and then that turned into a book. So that, that's kind of the, the journey, the longer story.

Steph Barron Hall 20:09

Yeah. Yeah. And I think when I first, um, So we met because of our mutual friend Christie Rolls, who's also been on the podcast. And, um, when I was first introduced to you and, and learned about this concept that you talk about, about like, this sense of self-care and, and everything and doing journaling workshops and even like going into these corporate spaces and helping people to navigate self-care in a really practical and sustainable way. Um, I was a little bit like, oh, she's a three. Like, that's so interesting to me. Um, and I think it's because as a three myself, like it does, I mean, we, I think of all people, once we slow down a little bit, we can see the need for really good self-care, but also it feels really anathema to the rest of the experience. Um, and like the survival strategies that we've created throughout life. Um, and I love that you experienced it, and that's the thing that. Offered you like a little bit of like enticement to continue down that path. Because if you know somebody from the outside is just like, do more self-care, it's like okay, yeah, sure, okay, whatever. But actually I have to do all these other things first. Um, and I'm so curious how. Your kind of concept of self-care has changed a little bit, um, through working with so many people through, you know, whether that's on social media or your corporate work or, um, coaching or any of these other spaces.

Taylor Elise Morrison 21:37

Yeah. Um, it's changed a lot. So the biggest thing is that it used to be just about listening to my body. So I used to say self-care is listening to your body and responding in the most loving way possible, which is a really good starting point I think. For everyone, no matter what type you are. At least in more Western environments. We're all but taught to ignore our bodies, to ignore our cues, to keep going when we're tired. The example I give sometimes is like when you need to go to the bathroom, but you're like, I just gotta send this one more email and then I'll go and it's like, no, our body. Is saying I'm hungry, or I need to go to the bathroom. And we bypass that and see it almost as a badge of honor that like we have mind over matter and we can just push through it. So I think starting for me, with that definition of listening to your body was necessary because my body was talking to me and I wasn't listening to it. But then I went through a yoga teacher training and I was introduced to this yoga concept of the Koshas, which became. The inspiration for inner workouts, five dimension of wellbeing, and there is a physical dimension, but then there's all these other parts of me too, the energetic, the mental and emotional, the wisdom and the bliss dimensions. And so starting to realize, oh, now I'm doing self-care. I'm listening, but I'm only listening to my body and. Sometimes doing movement or getting massage or taking a bath is not gonna give me what I need. If the issue is that there's something really emotional going on and there's a hard conversation that I need to have, or if I'm feeling risk really disconnected from people in my life and I need to work on cultivating those connections or building new connections like, Realizing that there was more to self-care than just caring for my body really is one of the major shifts that's happened over the five years or so that I've been doing this work.

Steph Barron Hall 23:45

Yeah, and I love that perspective too, because it really. Shows like the sense of like development. And I think in a lot of ways with the Enneagram too, we, we think it's one thing initially and then we see how it kind of dominoes into all these other spaces. Um, and I'm curious how you learned your type, how you kind of encountered the Enneagram and what that was like for you.

Taylor Elise Morrison 24:07

Yeah. How so? I was first introduced to it at the church I was going to, at the time. I no longer identify as religious, but I really am appreciative that I was introduced to, um, the Enneagram. And there was a specific, I wanna say it was the, I can't remember. It's a website that I had to pay 1299 for it, and it's the, one of the people is associated with a university. And I took that assessment. Actually, no, that is not the truth. I was first introduced to the Enneagram in college by one of my friends, and I read the Richard War book, and I remember, man, Woo. This is really bringing me back. I'm having like a physical experience as I remember this moment being in my dorm room, my senior year, reading about the shadow of a three and feeling so called out like who was inside of my brain that they. Knew that this is what was going on and that these are my deepest fears. That was how I originally got introduced. I was somewhat, I had that moment and I was like, huh, okay. So I'm a three. Then a couple years later, then I took an assessment. That's when I learned about the Four Wing. That's when I started diving more into how this actually like works in my life. But the first introduction was just like a, Wow. This can provide a lot of insight into myself, but I wasn't really ready to go there all the way yet.

Steph Barron Hall 25:40

Yeah, I think it can be like that because it's really hard to look at ourselves that way. And I think especially most of the time when I talk with threes and I had the same experience. Looking at like, oh, the, these like blind spots. Like I feel so exposed by these things. Like there's a reason why our psyches don't want us to see those things. And so, um, yeah, that sense of exposure can be really, really difficult to, to move past. Um, What was it like for you then? Because you mentioned burnout earlier, and I know that's a big part of your story. What was it like for you to kind of experience burnout as a three? And I, I think like you mentioned, like I think threes can be really prone to that. Um, and what was that experience like for you?

Taylor Elise Morrison 26:35

From, uh, like. Physical perspective, it's exhaustion, it's anxiety, it's this knowledge that there's so much that needs to get done, but I don't have the energy to do it. In my book, I kind of conceptualize burnout as like this deep sense of disconnected, like I felt disconnected from myself. I felt disconnected from my community. I felt disconnected from something bigger than me. And for a three, especially like. I feel, and I, I, I'll speak from that version of me. In the past, I felt like I should be able to do it all. I am a capable person. I can get things done. I can have more on my plate than other people, and. To be in a place where it's like I physically cannot do that is hard to have that re realization to get to the limits of what you're capable of doing as a human. And then having to quit things and step back is hard too, cuz it feels like a disappointment to say like, I overcom committed, I bit off more than I could chew. It feels like. It felt like for me, not just saying like I'm a human who's reached my limits, sometimes it felt like I am a failure. There is something fundamentally wrong with me that I can't do all of this.

Steph Barron Hall 27:56

Yeah, that's what I was kind of thinking too. Like threes were so averse to failure. Um, and sometimes, sometimes threes are really good at reframing failure until like, this is gonna be my memoir or whatever. But also sometimes threes are, are really, really sensitive to failure, where it's like something that. Like, it totally makes sense. Like when you're overextended and you're doing all these things to feel like that's a failure and to, to a three. That makes sense, I think. But I think other types might be like, no, it's not that. Why that's not a failure. That's just what happens in life, you know? But we kind of see it that way. Um, and I'm curious if any part of you was like, you're a three. Come on, pick yourself up. Get out there.

Taylor Elise Morrison 28:41

I tried for a while to do that and. I just realized I couldn't, and now like when I, now I would be with the other types and be like, of course you can't do everything. And I was just having a conversation before this with another friend who's also a three. And we are at this point where I'd like to think we're in a healthy state where we're talking about like, what does it mean to slow down and like let something simmer and do something of quality that takes time. Whereas a younger version of myself, Also a less healthy version of myself equated success and achievement with like this fast pace. And you need to be able to do it all and you need to be able to get to that result right now. And now I see my threeness coming out in the sense where I'm like, I wanna create things of quality and impact, and that means that I'll have to go slower and I'll probably have to have less on my plate so that the output, the end result can be all that I want it to be.

Steph Barron Hall 29:41

Yeah. Yeah. And I think what I love about that too is, you know, we're, we're here, we're talking about your book, and with writing a book, there is a lot of pressure. Like, there is a lot of pressure to like turn it in on time and do all these different things. Um, and sometimes it's, it's hard to say, actually, I wanna turn in something I'm really proud of. And it's not there yet. Instead of just saying, all right, I hit the deadline, let's move on. Um, and. You know, it can be like an achievement in and of itself to hit the deadline, even if it's totally arbitrary. Right. When you're talking about like this process of like moving into a space of being able to slow down and really create that space, because I do like, I agree with you. You know, having the ability to create that space and um, to be able to pause and, and breathe and think about like, how am I gonna move forward with this? Um, I think that is a sign of, of growth, you know? Um, I think that's one of the key things for threes is, is being able to reevaluate like whose opinion matters and, and how can I move forward. But I'm curious if it was challenging, um, at all to think about how other people might perceive you in that sense. Because that's one of the big things that we care about as threes is like, how am I managing my image and how am I managing how other people see me? Um, and I'm curious if that was ever a struggle or if it was just like I am at the complete point of burnout where I literally can't anymore.

Taylor Elise Morrison 31:10

Yeah, so I think. Fast forwarding to my most recent bout of burnout, which was actually like, I'm, I'm coming out of that. It was at the end of last year when I was finishing the book, and I had a lot of things going on. I, that was probably the most shame I've ever felt in admitting that I was burned out because I made this thing that I'm not naturally good at my life's work, and I'm very open about that. Like it's one of the first things I like to tell people is, yeah, I talk about self-care and inner work. Because I'm not naturally good at it and I've had to work at it. And also there's a part of me that was like, but you just wrote a book on it, so like we are past this. You can't get burned out anymore. And I had so much shame in admitting that I was burned out again, and that I was still able and capable of getting to that place. It was really, really hard. But what I've come back to is one, like the thing about burnout is. That your body, your being like it will tell you when you cannot do anything else. And I was realizing I was getting to that point and I didn't wanna end up in the hospital or unable to do the things that I needed to do. I caught it sooner, but I had, like, if I'm being honest, I had months where I realized I'm on the road to burnout. I'm on the road to burnout. And I was like, but if I just keep pushing, maybe it'll change. And then it was like, this is an ending. I really gotta stop before I see what the end of the road looks like. And I've seen it for other people and it's, it's not pleasant to get that deep into burnout. So yeah, there was really a lot of shame. But what I kept coming back to is, You were talking about whose opinion matters, and I've been working with my coach on like, what kind of leader do I wanna be? How do I wanna show up in the world? And I actually so admire people who are as transparent as they're able and willing to be with like, The broader world around them. Not everyone needs to know everything. And also people who are willing to change their mind or to be like, you know what? I was wrong, or I thought I could do all of this, but I can't right now. And so that's what I've tried to lean into being, is a person who's willing to acknowledge what their limits are, acknowledge their shortcomings, and it's been so cool to see. It's like I unlocked a different kind of success and the people who admire me are now people who admire me, not in spite of me falling short, but because I don't get it right a hundred percent of the time. But I'm willing to share what I learned and pick up and keep going in a new way.

Steph Barron Hall 33:45

Yeah, that's so impactful and I, I've heard other authors, I think, Um, I heard somebody ask James Clear, oh, so you have perfect habits, right? And he said, no, we write the book that we need to read. Um, and I think that's really true. Um, what was it in those months of like, that experience of burnout that, that you kept saying like, Nope, like, you could see it coming. You're like, I know this is gonna happen. What was it that. Kind of propelled you forward, but Al also, like what were you noticing? Like, it, it, I mean, you don't have to share anything you don't want to, but I'm just curious if, if there are any signs or symptoms that we can learn to identify.

Taylor Elise Morrison 34:28

Yeah, so going back to the idea of like self-care is listening within and responding in the most loving way possible, when you start to listen to yourself, you notice like what, obviously there are the broader Enneagram signs of health and unhealth, but you know what that means for you. So like there are physical sensations that I can have in my stomach, in my legs getting really tight, where I'm like, okay, something is going on here. It's also. What are the things that are happening? Like am I constantly finding that I don't have time to do everything or I mentioned before burnout is disconnection. I was feeling so disconnected. I was like, I'm doing all of these things that theoretically look good. And like a lot of them, I'm not excited by anymore. Like I had to redo my podcast because I was like, This isn't even fun to make. And it was funny because it was reflected in my numbers. Like less and less people were listening as I was less and less interested, energized by, had capacity for the way that I was doing the podcast. So there was like internal and external inputs that were telling me, Hey, something is off. And I just try to be aware of. On a regular basis, if something keeps happening like two or three times, that's a pattern. So if I keep feeling anxious or if I keep having this thought that I'm annoyed that I have to do this work related thing, That's a problem. And when a lot of your work life is like that, then that's especially a problem. As someone who's self-employed, it's like I get to make what my job is. So if I'm not liking my job to the point that I don't wanna do it, but I'm also exhausted because of how I've created it, then something needs to change.

Steph Barron Hall 36:20

Yeah. What, I'm curious if you have an example of one of those things, maybe like the podcast for example, where you're like, oh, I actually need a change here. Like this isn't working. Um, And I'm also curious if at times, you know, other people are disappointed with that and like you have to roll with that.

Taylor Elise Morrison 36:38

Yeah, I think the podcast is a great example because I've had a version of a podcast since 2019. My first podcast. All of 2019. I did it every single weekday, which like, I don't know how I did that. Like I had an editor. I didn't have to do everything myself. But there is a part of me that's like, I should have kept that going because I did it before daily podcasts were thing, and now there's like lots of daily podcasts. But I just realized I could not do that anymore. And then eventually I started this new podcast with a format where I. Was asking questions, and it was really supposed to give people a chance to reflect and to integrate. And then you were on, uh, an interview series that I did for that podcast. And I, and this might have been a three thing, but in my mind it was like to have a podcast that is good and successful. You publish a podcast every week, you don't skip, you don't miss a week. That's just how you do it. At minimum you're publishing once a week. And then I had a thought where I was like, there are lots of great podcasts that I listen to that are seasonal or are every other week. And so a big thing for me has been. Defining success for myself, but also expanding what that can look like to be successful in anything that I'm doing. And I was burned out of my podcast because I had such a narrow focus of what it was. And when I did reflection for myself, I realized I love the medium of podcasting, but I didn't like how I was viewing it. And I'm sure there are people who were disappointed, but I'll also say this new season that came out, it's gotten the most listens that it's ever. That any podcast I've made has ever gotten, and I've had the most fun making it. So I don't, I, I can't guarantee that those results for everyone, but that's what happened for me.

Steph Barron Hall 38:41

Yeah, absolutely. I think that when you are doing any sort of creative endeavor, how you feel about it really shows and it's really hard to show up well for something that you are exhausted by. Um, Even if at one point you really loved it. So Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Um, I'm curious with, you know, all of these things and like the fear of failure that we talked about and like all these different aspects of your life and your business, how do you think that being a three changes the way that you see things? Like how do you think that you see your type kind of show up in those things?

Taylor Elise Morrison 39:23

Yeah, I think my natural tendency without all of the work that I've done is to have a very binary view of success in failure. And I think this is true for everyone, but especially so for threes. I mean, I've only ever been a three, so it's the only experience I can think can speak to, but most of us don't intentionally define success for ourselves, which means that everyone else. By osmosis is telling us what it means to be successful. So the work that I have to do all of the time is not to stop trying to be a success, but to define what success means to me. Like I have four measures of success that I'm always looking at to see if I'm living into these four things, that means I'm successful. Like for example, one of them is I'm generous. That's a seat of being that. Whether I have a million dollars in my bank account or negative$10 in my bank account, there's always a way for me to be generous, and I personally cannot feel successful if I'm not giving back to people in my life, people in my community, in some way. So I think that's the big reframe around success is defining it for myself, because that gives me something like productive and life giving to work towards other than just the like. Make a bunch of money, be super flashy, all of those things that aren't actually life giving to me. And then it's also been reframing failure, like I think a lot about process and experimentation now. So instead of just focusing on, I want to get to this point where I'm a New York Times bestseller, for example, which actually isn't one of my goals, but. If that were my goal, I would just be so focused on that, that I might miss out on everything that writing and publishing a book has to teach me. Like this whole process has taught me so much about myself and what's important to me. And I also think of experimentation because by definition you can't fail and experiment. You just learn. So I, I got this from another friend of mine who's also a three. She says, I'm trying this out. I'm testing this thing. I'm trying to learn this, and so I'm actually experimenting right now with, instead of having goals, I'm trying to have questions that I want to answer, and it could be related to marketing, it could be related to publishing a book, but instead of like, I'm trying to get to this number, I'm trying to have more information to answer this question. And that's been a useful reframe around failure for me too. And the last thing I'll say is I just try and own that things don't always go the way I plan and open up about that. And it actually endears people to me. And I think the lie that threes believe is that people will no longer love us or it'll push people away. And I actually think the opposite is true. I think when we try to appear too perfect, we. Feel Inapproachable to other people.

Steph Barron Hall 42:36

Yeah. Yeah, I think that last piece is so important and it's so hard to just like move into that and like tackle it. Um, I feel like you need a, a certain level of like, personal support in your life in a sense, um, to be able to kind of delve into that. But I love the concept of like having a research question instead of a goal where it's like, I'm gonna go find the answer to this. Like, how do I sell more books? Like, is this the thing that's going to make it happen? I'm not sure what they are, but

Taylor Elise Morrison 43:08

That's one of my questions is like, what sells books? Because I like being on a podcast, could sell books or getting ads, could sell books, or, I don't like any number of things, but I don't know. So instead of being like, let me sell a million books, let me figure out what sells books and also what sells books that feels good and sustainable for me to do.

Steph Barron Hall 43:29

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, uh, saw your email about that and I thought it was just such an interesting perspective on saying like, here are some numbers, and they didn't even tell me what they mean. Yeah. Fully, you know, So it was just like such a great, um, way to look at it and I really appreciate that. Personally. I buy books when I hear about them on podcasts because I love hearing the behind the scenes. Um, and I'm curious what the process for you was like overall, just writing your book. Um, was it easy peasy? Was it harder than you thought it was gonna be? What was that like?

Taylor Elise Morrison 44:03

I think. It. I mean, it was so many things. I, I saw my threeness come out because I would think about how people would receive this, and if I share this thing, are they going to think, again, going back to that binary, are they gonna think I'm successful or are they gonna think I'm a failure? And so having to pull myself back to what is the purpose of this book, which actually isn't about me at all. It's about people. Building a deeper relationship with themselves. That's actually my goal for the book. So I, I can remember times, um, I'm like looking towards this room in my house where I was writing one of the chapters of the book and one of the earlier chapters of the book, and I just sat there for like an hour. I couldn't write, I was like paralyzed with fear that. Someone else is gonna read this and they're gonna have an opinion on it and they might judge me or they might think less of me or whatever, or not take me seriously. Um, so it was hard. I had to do a lot of work to feel into what felt true for me. What would be useful for other people, but not trying to like contort myself into something that would just be palatable for the masses, which is something that I feel like I did for a long time. Um, but then there were also lots of parts that were fun. Like I wrote a book about self-care and. As stressful as many parts of the process have been, my intention has always been like I wanna infuse care into this book. So some of it I like wrote in my bathtub, or I would get like hotel rooms for the day and I might like take a nap in a lovely hotel bed and then write some. And so I tried to, as much as I can, embody an ethos of self-care and also community care, like this wouldn't be possible without. People in my life who were willing to, like my husband cooked a lot when I was on deadline because I just like didn't have it in me. Or like my friend would send me pep talks or one of my friends, like in her own way, like read all of the chapters and gave me feedback on it because I was like, I really respect your opinion and I would love that additional support. So it's, it just was such like a labor of, of love and care and. Trying to practice what I preach imperfectly while making the book.

Steph Barron Hall 46:27

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's so beautiful because I think that, um, The, the imperfectly part of it is the part that's so hard, right? Like that's the part where the shame comes in sometimes, where it's like, oh, how dare you think you're writing about self-care and look at you doing X, Y, and Z. Um, but I love that that was such a strong focus for you and that you already had all of those practices built up over time, that you were able to then kind of have that good foundation, um, that you created because, One thing I find is like, um, for me, what, what's been really challenging about writing my book this time, um, is was like, I didn't have like a daily writing habit going into it.

Taylor Elise Morrison 47:16

Mm.

Steph Barron Hall 47:17

And I think it would've helped a lot to just have that habit already. Um, because trying to develop that habit while, you know, feeling like the pressure of the deadlines and all that stuff, um, That's really hard. That's really hard. And I think the hardest thing about the book too, sorry, like one last thing I was thinking of is you, you work on it for so long, it's the same project. You're going over the same chapters. It's just so long.

Taylor Elise Morrison 47:47

I completely agree, and I got diagnosed with ADHD after I finished writing it, and I was like, oh yeah, that, that's another thing is like you're in this process for so long. Both in the writing of it, but also like this process started for me in 2020. It's 2023. I've been so many like versions of myself, and now I'm speaking to something that I started writing three years ago. It's just like a, there's a lot of s. Being tethered to a different version of yourself and having so much like respect and care for that version of yourself, and also wanting to hold onto this person that you've become. In the meantime, it's a very interesting in between to sit in.

Steph Barron Hall 48:33

Yeah, I, I think it is. And I think, um, That, that idea of like versions of yourself jumped out at me because I think especially as threes, but all heart types like have this real focus on identity. Like who am I? Like, let me understand myself. Um, and often when I work with threes, it's like this sense of like wanting to go out and out into the world and find it. And I think what you've really illustrated here and I think is so true is like, Finding yourself in a sense of self-knowledge is actually about relaxing into it. Like relaxing into and surrendering yourself to making a safe and comfortable enough space where you're not so busy that you can't see it, and then allowing yourself to come to the surface.

Taylor Elise Morrison 49:21

Yeah, I loved that, like relaxing into it. I. That is what I've, I've done and I'm continuing to do and it's hard like I can feel cuz the opposite to me of relaxing is like this defensiveness, this having this armor and this very rigid, like, I want you to see me this way. And the relaxing almost makes me think of like, If you have a dog and I you have a dog, but if other people listening have dogs and like your dog feels comfortable enough to like put their belly up so you can, like, that is such a vulnerable position. And sometimes they'll like relax into your touch and it, it takes a while to create that space for yourself to do that with yourself, let alone to do that like in a way where other people are witnessing it.

Steph Barron Hall 50:09

Absolutely. What advice do you have for other threes on how to kind of like. Allow that sense of self attunement and vulnerability come to the surface.

Taylor Elise Morrison 50:20

I will preface this by saying this is ongoing work for me. Um, I think it starts with practicing it with people who you feel safe with in your life. So like I started practicing this with my husband and some of my closest friends, like. Even something as simple as being able to say like, I'm having a really hard time right now. I'm feeling really anxious right now, and being able to express that quote unquote imperfection or struggle. Instead of being like, I have it together, look, I'm fine. I'm just gonna put on this mask even for the people I'm closest to. So that's been work that I've done. The other thing is like finding the spaces where I feel most comfortable sharing. And to me, there's something about, I mentioned I love the medium of podcasting. It feels really intimate, even if lots of people are listening. I feel really safe when I'm writing to my newsletters. And so instead of. Forcing myself, which not to say I, I have done this, I have had moments where I'm like, I really need to be out there on all of the social media networks and putting all of the content out there. And I realize I don't always feel safe in that. And so leaning into what feels safe and steady for me, and then also like as someone who shares some of my life with the world, it's constantly a balance to figure out. What is just for my people who know me in real life, what is for the, the broader public, and that that negotiation happens all the time. Like there's something that maybe I would've shared publicly before that I don't feel comfortable doing it right now, so I have to keep having that conversation.

Steph Barron Hall 52:01

Yeah, and it's. Really moving away from that binary you've been talking about of like having hard and fast rules about everything. Like being willing to navigate it and be more vulnerable and like get it wrong. Because innately when we, well, even when we have hard and fast rules, I think we get it wrong, but like our brains think that we're not gonna get it wrong if we, everything is black and white and kind of going case by case and navigating it and looking for the safe spaces that can be really, you know, Fraught, I think, and, and it can feel really emotional sometimes.

Taylor Elise Morrison 52:34

Yeah, absolutely. And it's just like a, I, I will put standards up for myself, but then I, I might feel like, Ooh, this doesn't feel good in my body. I'm getting like a fight or flight response. Maybe now's not the time, or maybe these aren't the people. And it doesn't mean I never share, it just means like, Something's off and being willing to, to press pause on that, which is difficult for me to do. I'm speaking about things that like I am still in process with.

Steph Barron Hall 53:04

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think, what's the lie we tell ourselves as threes is like, You know, especially when it's talking about that, that first step too. Like we don't want anyone to see a struggle, right? So we think if I just don't show them I'm struggling, I won't be struggling. But you're still struggling. It's just that you're making people think that you aren't. So it doesn't change reality. It only changes. How you perceive other people perceiving your reality. Um, and I think when you start to recognize that and, and moving toward like, okay, this is the truth of who I am, or this is the truth of how I'm feeling or what I'm doing, um, yeah, that, that feels really different. Do you have like a quick, like for, for people, cuz you've talked a lot about. Tuning in with your body and like being really able to say, okay, what is my body feeling? What feedback is my body giving me? And it sounds like that can be a good place for a lot of people to start. Um, what is like a, a quick like beginner practice to, to recognize something?

Taylor Elise Morrison 54:06

Something that I do when I'm working with students that I think everyone can benefit from is just like a quick body scan. And you may be familiar with that as like, I am feeling my feet, I relax my feet. You can do that, but sometimes it, I'll just do it to notice what's happening. In my body and start to realize, oh, my calves feel different today than they did yesterday. Having that ability to notice that your body is shifting and changing can be a really good place to start. And then the other thing that I would add is sometimes if you're feeling something strongly, like emotionally, perhaps like, I'm so mad right now. See if you can figure out, okay. I know what the emotion of being mad feels like. Maybe mentally what's happening physically when I'm mad, so that you can start to see those patterns.

Steph Barron Hall 54:58

Yeah. Yeah, and that's so helpful too, to be able to name emotions. I think, you know, We're heart types. So we're talking about like from a heart types perspective, but I think, you know, sometimes head types, I talk to them and they're like, I have no idea where that is, you know, in my body or I, I don't feel that physically at all. And I think learning to tune into those things a little bit more can be really helpful to be able to kind of feel the emotion. Um, and it kind of is like, I don't know if you've ever done somatic experiencing as like a, a therapy modality.

Taylor Elise Morrison 55:32

I haven't.

Steph Barron Hall 55:33

It's, it kind of, I mean, there are similarities in that, at least, you know, the therapist that I had that, that walked me through, it was like noticing where it was in my body, where I was feeling something and then doing something with it. Like, I felt like I just wanna, I'm mad, like, maybe it's like making a, a gesture that feels like mad to me, you know? Um, making my arms really big or something like that. Um, And I think being able to recognize and integrate that sense of like, okay, like there are other things other than just my mind happening right now is so important.

Taylor Elise Morrison 56:08

Yeah, and I, yes, we are heart types and I think that. This is almost even more true for the non heart types to get into this work because what can happen for any of us is like a strength over used is a weakness, or anything that we like can get too used to only whether it's the dimensions of wellbeing, we only care for our energetic dimension and we get rid of all of the other things. Or we're only listening to our bodies and we're not thinking about our emotions like. It's good to be a little bit out of your comfort zone and to try getting to know yourself through maybe perspectives that feel a little bit unnatural to you at first, because that's how you, that's how you get to know yourself deeply.

Steph Barron Hall 57:01

Yeah. And that's really hard work. I mean, I've been talking with people a lot about that this week of like getting to know ourselves really deeply. It's, it's tough work. Um, when it comes to your book and like, You know why people should read it. I would love to hear a little bit more from your perspective about, you know, what's the main idea for people to kind of take away from it.

Taylor Elise Morrison 57:22

Yeah, we were talking about this before, but I need things to be really practical and so this book, like. It starts with this assessment that I created that measures your wellbeing across the five dimensions. And so you're starting with this like picture of where you're at according to you. And then as you go through the book, you can read it front to back or you can choose your own adventure. It gives you things that you can do to get to know yourself more deeply into bring yourself. F towards a state of like integration. And so whether you are someone who's like, I feel like I'm actually doing really well on self-care, or someone who feels like you need a place to start, there's something for you in the book. And yeah, my, my hope above all else is that you get to know yourself and to, to deepen your connection with yourself, not with me, not with some external expert, but with you as the expert on you.

Steph Barron Hall 58:20

Yeah, absolutely. Um, can you remind us what the five realms are again?

Taylor Elise Morrison 58:24

Physical, energetic, mental, and emotional wisdom and bliss are the five dimensions

Steph Barron Hall 58:30

Mental and emotional are combined.

Taylor Elise Morrison 58:32

are one. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall 58:33

got it. Bliss. Okay. Can you really quickly say something about what that means?

Taylor Elise Morrison 58:39

Yeah. To me is like, It's connection and there's three sub-dimensions, connection to self, connection to community, connection to something bigger than you. And yeah, that's the dimension that I have a lot of fun working with. Um, because for a long time, I, and this could be related to my threeness, I didn't feel connected to who I actually was. I didn't feel connected authentically to community because I was trying to manage perceptions and to be successful or perceived as the way I felt like other people should see me instead of authentically being myself.

Steph Barron Hall 59:18

Yeah. Yes, I totally hear that as a three as well. Um, I am so excited to get my hands on it and read it. Um, I know that I've taken your assessment in the past. And I just thought it was such a different way to look at self-care and, um, you know, that that relationship that we all have with ourselves, whether we have a good one or a bad one, or we're totally unaware of it. Um, and so yeah. I'm so excited for everyone to be able to grab it as well. Um, I'm curious if there's anything else that you wanna share, um, that you're. Wanting everyone to take away from this, this episode or even from, you know, your work in general.

Taylor Elise Morrison 1:00:02

Yeah, I think for this group specifically, I would encourage you to define success for yourself, like to spend some time sitting with that. What does it mean to be successful and how can I orient myself to that definition of success?

Steph Barron Hall 1:00:20

Yeah, I love it. Um, and where can we find you on the internet?

Taylor Elise Morrison 1:00:26

Yeah. You can find me on Instagram at Taylor Elise Morrison. Or at inner workout, even though I'll say I'm, I'm mostly a stories gal, you won't get a lot of in feed posts. Um, and then Inner Workout has a newsletter and a podcast, and I personally have a podcast called the, or a podcast, a newsletter called The Process Report, which is where I talk about my process and the ways that I'm failing and the ways that I'm pivoting. So if that's interesting to you, you'd probably like the process report.

Steph Barron Hall 1:00:58

Yeah, I love it. I think it's, it's really interesting. Um, okay. Final two questions that I ask everyone. What is a book that has shaped you or refreshed you or kind of left a mark on you in the last year?

Taylor Elise Morrison 1:01:13

That's such a good question. This is a little, actually this is within the last year, um, big friendship. So I have two really good friends. We just got matching tattoos last year, and it's about, Not just being like best friends, but how can we elevate friendship to a level where we are really, truly, deeply there for each other? Um, and I feel like I'm not doing it justice describing it, but it's by two good friends who had a podcast, um, call your girlfriend and. It's just such a delight. I'd recommend reading it with a friend and we kind of used it to like make some commitments to each other about what does it mean to be in our lives for the long term, the same way that you might do with a partner. So that, that was a really pivotal book, pivotal book for me.

Steph Barron Hall 1:02:05

I love it. That sounds awesome. Um, and I think that's really overlooked in a lot of ways. Like the value of that I think is overlooked. Um, okay. And then finally, what is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Taylor Elise Morrison 1:02:18

Hmm. The first thing, I guess the piece of advice is something my friend said earlier. And I'm, I'm making a big decision that I'm not gonna talk about publicly yet, but she asked me, what do you need to take off of your plate if you commit to this? And I was like, actually nothing. And she was like, okay, let me rephrase. I think that there's probably something that you need to take off of your plate because I think that this is a portal into new opportunities for you, and you will not be able to fully experience all that this can offer for you if you aren't willing to make space for it to be all that it can be. And I was like kind of annoyed at her, but also she was right. And so that's the advice that I'm sitting with like. Where can I make even more space? And the idea that giving myself that space is what allows me to receive and to experience things instead of rushing through.

Steph Barron Hall 1:03:25

Yeah, that's really wise advice from your friend. I think we could all take a little something from that. Um, I love it. Well, thank you so much for spending this time with me. I think. You know, our listeners are gonna get so much out of this conversation and also from your brand new book, inner Workout. Um, so I will definitely be linking it in the show notes. But, um, everyone go get this book because I'm so excited about sharing it with you.

Taylor Elise Morrison 1:03:55

Thank you so much for having me.

Steph Barron Hall 1:03:56

course. Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify