1:55

Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in real life. A podcast that will help you go beyond any grand theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Baron hall, creator of nine types co on Instagram, author of the Enneagram in love, accredited Enneagram, professional, and ennea curious human, just like you be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram and your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now onto the show.

Steph Barron Hall: 2:26

Well, hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Any GR in Real Life. I'm Steph.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 2:30

And I'm Heidi.

Steph Barron Hall: 2:31

And today we are going to be talking with Chichi a Gok. Um, and I'll introduce her in a second, but this was just such a great episode. Heidi and I were just kind of recapping, um, the episode a bit. This is when I recorded in November, so like six months ago. And it's just been waiting for your ears since then. But I am so excited for you to hear it because truly it's definitely one of our favorites.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 2:57

I agree this is one of my absolute favorites, especially, um, as a type four. Really, really good worth the listen for sure.

Steph Barron Hall: 3:05

Two things I think we should probably note is that one, we had some audio issues during this podcast, so, um, there. There are just like some weird audio things happening in the background. Um, so just keep that in mind. My apologies that we did not get that sorted. It's just part of real life and I think it's really cool that we have all these podcasts now that are popping up, but it also means that a lot of us are podcasting in not podcast studios in our home offices and, um, things like that. So there's always background noise and stuff. Um, we try to edit it as much as possible, but just keep that in mind that that's happening. And the second one is that these first few episodes, we have a lot of threes and fours. So we heard a couple weeks ago from Scott who's a three. Heidi and I last week, three and four Chichi this week as a four. And another fantastic type three episode coming up soon. So don't worry, We're gonna get to everybody else we will definitely get to all nine, but I don't know if it's just that it's easy to resonate with people who are your type, and then they produce work and you're like, oh, I love the way that they look at things because it's your own type or what. But I tend to find a lot of. types, um, are really easy for me to be like, oh, I, I wanna have them on the podcast. And then I find out, oh, you're a three or you're a four. Or the other thing that happens a lot for me is like eights. I have so many eights. I've even said no to some eights because I'm like, we have had way too many eights. Um, but now I think maybe it's time to, uh, to open things back up. Um, so yeah, we'll get to all nine types, don't worry. But right now we're kind of in the three four zone apparently.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 4:51

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 4:52

So Heidi type four. How have you seen your type show up this week?

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 4:58

Yes. So this one, I'm taking it back a little bit. So my husband and I had the privilege of going. To New Zealand in November and we really loved it. It was really an awesome experience. But when I first got there, we landed in Auckland, um, and we just. We were at a hotel, we wanted to walk around and, you know, of course I had to make sure, you know, what I was wearing, looked great and stood out in the best way, you know, whatever. Um, almost to compensate for like how nervous I was in this new place. Um, but we went out and I remember feeling. So uncomfortable and like out of place and really for no other reason than me not being present and you know, me looking around and comparing and feeling like others are so much more well-traveled than me. So yeah, just really feeling so uncomfortable and I express my nervousness to my husband and he said, Which is so helpful. He said, I don't think anyone is really paying attention to us, like we're just normal people. And that was amongst like the very few times where like I really appreciated being called normal, but like, I mean that's like glimpse of like equanimity and just hearing that it was so relieving and I think that shaped the whole trip for me, and I still keep that as a reminder. And I was able to let myself, you know, be free to explore and be curious, you know, not being afraid of asking questions and looking like I don't really know what I'm doing. Um, but yeah, just it helped me like connect with people in a more authentic way, you know, without comparison and being so heavy of a, like, without comparison being so heavy of a focus. So that, that's my story. And I tend to clinging to that reminder all the time cuz I, I definitely need that reminder.

Steph Barron Hall: 6:48

Yeah. That's so beautiful. I think that's such a good reminder. And I think all the heart types are kind of like a little bit too obsessed with what are other people thinking about me right now. Um, I love that he was able to call that out for you in, in a really kind way. Um, It kind of honestly reminds me of that scene in Schitt's Creek where David is going to do his driver's test and he's like freaking out about all these different things, like kind of ruminating and um, Alexis is like, nobody cares, David, nobody cares. And it's really meant in that same sort of way where it's like nobody is thinking about you. They're thinking about them. Um, literally, I had this conversation recently with uh, this book club that I'm in and one of the sevens in the group was like, nobody cares. They're thinking about

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 7:41

Mm, mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 7:42

And I was like, unless there aren't type, in which case they might actually be thinking

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 7:45

Exactly, exactly. So we're not too crazy, but that is true. Like, you know, they are focusing on their own, you know, their own space. They're, they're having fun. Yeah. They're having their own fun time, so, yeah. Yeah, for sure. Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 8:00

funny. Um, okay, well I'm seeing my type show right this very second because I just heard my neighbor's chainsaw come back on and I'm so irritated, um, because this is like, I think one of the things about being a three that is intention, where I have a really strong desire to create like a perfectly produced professional podcast. Well, at the same time, I also just wanna get it done and I don't wanna reschedule until I can be in my office or until I can be, you know, not when somebody is doing yard work, which is basically never honestly, like somebody's always doing yard work around here. I don't understand it. Um, but I think that's definitely a way to see my type show up. Um, And the like, impatience and annoyance and just having to be like, okay, well this is what is happening right now and I can just let it go and hey, maybe we'll be able to edit out that sound in the background and you won't even hear it.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 9:04

Yeah, maybe. But it adds a little flare. Yeah, we'll just say that,

Steph Barron Hall: 9:09

Yeah,

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 9:09

right?

Steph Barron Hall: 9:10

It's so irritating to me. Um, but yeah, I do think that there's, like, I have such a strong desire to be like, I am a professional who creates this amazing podcast that's so professional and so put together. And also, I am genuinely not like a podcast professional, like creating a podcast is different from being somebody who's like amazing at, or an expert level producer. Um, so. It's something I definitely fight with. Um, but if I waited until I was an expert, we would not have any podcast episodes. So right now we're, we're nearing like a hundred thousand downloads, which is really exciting.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 9:54

Yeah. No, that's awesome. And yeah, so it's just like, What we said last time in that past episode is we're not a, not afraid to be seen trying and although that can be difficult, but Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 10:08

I mean we are, but we're trying

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 10:10

Right. That's a reminder. Exactly. That's what we have to keep telling ourselves. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 10:17

Okay. So what are you into this week?

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 10:21

Yeah, so I, I'll, I won't say any spoilers, but the new season of Ted Lasso is out and they're releasing it weekly. This is their last season, and I'm really enjoying it. And I'm curious, like I know you've seen Ted Lasso, have you been, um, been able to watch it?

Steph Barron Hall: 10:39

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Been watching every

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 10:42

You have.

Steph Barron Hall: 10:43

Mm-hmm.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 10:44

I love it. And I think there's only 12 episodes in this season from what I read, unless I'm mistaken, but yeah, I'm, I'm enjoying it in this last season.

Steph Barron Hall: 10:56

I know it's a little

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 10:57

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 10:58

I didn't realize they were gonna be 12 this time, so that makes me happy because I was like, what? There's only two episodes left. Like I felt

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 11:08

Yes, there was a mid-season, I guess you would call it a mid-season finale. I dunno. It was, it was in the middle of the season and I was like, wait, is this the last episode? Like, is this over? But no, I liked and there was more coming, so I was like, okay, good. Yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 11:23

Yeah. I ha I wanna talk about it, but I

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 11:26

know spoilers. I know, but what are you into this week? What have you learned? What, yeah, what are you into?

Steph Barron Hall: 11:34

Okay, so there's this one podcast I really love called The One You Feed. And if you've ever heard the parable about, um, I, I've listened to this podcast so many times, I'll just say the parable really quick and then, you know, you can just still listen to it. But because they, they talk about this parable at the beginning of each episode. So basically there's a child and they're talking with their grand grandparent and the grandparent says, um, there are two wolves inside you. A good wolf and a bad wolf. And so the child says, oh, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed is the one that wins, basically. Um, and so it's this podcast, it's all about. Feeding the good wolf, essentially. Um, and there are different takes on that, right? Because different people have different perspectives. Like one person came on and was like, don't feed either wolf, right? Like, come to the middle way, like, what does that look like? Um, so there's all these different concepts that people bring cuz he always asks the guests like, what do you make of that? And then talks about that. So I listened to an episode this week with a woman named. Laura Kath Cart Robbins, and she wrote this book called Stash My Life in Hiding about her addiction to Ambien and the process of getting sober and basically her life unfolding throughout that process. So I listened to that book. Um, I'm almost done. I have like an hour left. Um, but yeah, it's just been a really interesting listen and just so many like deep. Emotional truths coming up from just her process and how all of us kind of find these ways to cope with our lives. Um, and what does it actually mean to like live mindfully in the present and how challenging that is. Um, so yeah, it's been a really great book.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 13:34

That sounds really interesting actually, and I love that. And you said that podcast is based on that parable of, you know, feeding the Good Wolf or the Bad Wolf. Yeah, so that reminds me of a book that I know is on your reading list, um, that you share in your nine types co page. Um, but it's atomic habit, so I know like that's something I really wanna get into. But I saw preview, um, Talking about how the author of that book says that one positive action or, you know, habit is one vote for, you know, the life that you are wanting. And so that just reminds me of that concept of, you know, feeding the good wolf or the bad wolf. Um, but yeah, I, I find that so fascinating and I think I'll definitely add that podcast to my list.

Steph Barron Hall: 14:24

Yeah, and I think that is such a great perspective to add to it as well, because, um, it's easy to think about, at least for me, you know, these are like the big things that I wanna do in my life, but, Thinking, like breaking it down. And I know James Clear also, um, talks about like the 1% better rule, like 1% every day. Um, you know, breaking down each action of like, what does the life that I want to live look like? And, you know, if I were living that life, what would that version of myself do in each moment? And it's actually a trick that I kind of use too, because I have these reminders that pop up, um, on my phone of like, what would a self-compassionate person do in this moment? Or like, what would the most self-compassionate version of myself do in this moment? Like those little things, like four times a day. I get those questions. Um, and yeah, super helpful.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 15:26

I love that. I mean, I can even see that as like a, a journaling exercise. Like for myself, you know, like really mapping that out of like what that looks like and then sticking to that almost kind of like a values, um, finding, you know, what are values that are important to me and then how can I stay aligned with that? I love that. That's so cool that you get those reminders on your phone. I feel like that's so helpful.

Steph Barron Hall: 15:49

Yeah, I, for a while I had sticky notes, but I was like, I am going to be covered in sticky notes. I keep

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 15:56

Sure.

Steph Barron Hall: 15:57

Um, yeah, okay. Shall we move on to talk about our guest?

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 16:03

Yes. On this week's episode of Engram I R L, we meet with Chichi, a Gore, a writer, a certified Enneagram teacher and practitioner through the narrative tradition, adjunct Faculty at the Narrative Enneagram and a former psychotherapist whose life's work is to support people on their journeys toward wholeness and healing. Her greatest joy is learning how to belong to herself in creating spaces, both physically and with her words that help others feel less alone and more known. She's the author of the Enneagram for Black Liberation Available wherever books are sold.

Steph Barron Hall: 16:40

Yes, and I am so thrilled to get to share this episode. Um, and you can also find chichi on Instagram at the Agram for Black Liberation, or connect with her online@chichiagorum.com. We will put all of that in the show notes, but also keep in mind that she has her own podcast that is now up When we recorded this, I don't think she'd quite release it yet, but now it's. Launched, it's out in the world, so we'll be sure to link that too. It's called From Armor to Ease. And one of my favorite things that we talk about in this episode is just her perspective on using the na gram as armor and how that can be a, a challenging thing. Um, but it's also, it also can be a really helpful and useful thing too. And so be sure to check out her podcast. And she also holds groups for, black women, I believe. But I could be wrong. It could be open to black people of any gender, um, who are. Interested in, in going on their engram journey in a more of a group setting. So that's called at ease. You can also find that in the show notes or on her website. Um, so be sure to check that out because it's a really beautiful and vulnerable space that she's created. Um, and you're gonna hear a lot more about all of that from Chichi today. So without further ado, here is the interview with Chichi. Well, Chichi, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I'm so glad you're here and I'm so excited to talk to you about your book and all of the amazing things you're doing.

Chichi Agorom: 18:14

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:18

Yeah, of course. so in the intro, of course, I introduced your book and, you know, wanted to talk more about that. But before we go there, I was just wondering if you could tell a little bit of your story, tell us about yourself, tell us about your background a bit, and what kind of brought you to this place in your life.

Chichi Agorom: 18:38

Sure. Um, so a little bit about myself. I currently live in Los Angeles, California, but previous to this, I spent many years in Colorado, which is where I. Um, did college and grad school, which grad school was where I got introduced to the Engram. But, um, overall about myself, I am a, um, Nigerian immigrant to the United States. I am a black woman. I am a daughter and a friend and many other things. And, I'm trained as a mental health therapist, um, also a writer. I think of myself more as a writer than an author. I've published a book, but I've been writing since I was 11. I wrote my first novel when I was 11. Um, so I'd say that's something important about me and then kind of the journey that led me to this work and to the Enneagram was, like I mentioned, when I was in grad school, um, studying to be a therapist, we were using a lot of different modalities for, um, Just learning about human development and personalities and things like that. The M B T I was kind of like the primary one back then, and then someone introduced me to the Enneagram and it sounded weird and I didn't understand it, and I kind of put it to the side for a bit. Um, but it kept coming back up and there were lots of conversations from people that I trusted around it. So, um, I looked into it and it was a really, uh, surprising experience for me with how, well, how much I felt, um, seen by the descriptions and by the, just the framework of understanding human behavior and personalities through this lens. And so I started with just kind of exploring for myself, of course, around, you know, what is my type, what does that mean? All of that information. But then got curious about the whole, the whole, the whole system. other types. And then a good friend of mine, um, had just begun her training with the narrative Ingram. So she introduced me to the narrative. I went to one of their, uh, intro back before the pandemic when it was all in person. It was, um, I think a six day or seven day. It was a six day intensive retreat in Menlo Park in California. And it was really transformational to be there and to, you know, participate in the way, in the, the magic of the narrative method as it comes, as it pertains to the Enneagram, because people are in the narrative. We teach through panels. So there is, there are teachers who've been doing this for over 30 years who are very skilled and very knowledgeable. And yet the, the magic happens when they hold space for people to share their own stories and share about, um, how they notice these patterns and shifts in their own lives. And just the vulnerability that that fosters and the way that you see the common shared humanity in people who, on the surface you might be like, we have nothing in common. Right? But then after those moments, it's, it's just like a collective sense of, um, mutual vulnerability and mutual wonder at the experience of being human together. Um, so yeah, I got, I was sold after that first one. I finished the training, um, or I started the process of, of training to be a certified teacher and practitioner. And yeah, one thing led to another and here we are.

Steph Barron Hall: 22:21

Yeah. Was it at the VAA center?

Chichi Agorom: 22:24

It was, yes. Have you been there?

Steph Barron Hall: 22:27

I just got back from there on Monday. Mm-hmm.

Chichi Agorom: 22:30

it's so beau like the trees and just like the, the grounds are so beautiful and so it's a very supportive environment for having transformational work done.

Steph Barron Hall: 22:40

yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I love that story too, and I love how you talked about, the experiential aspect of it and also hearing people's stories and kind of like that magical aspect of it, because. I think that's something that's lost a lot of the time when we only experience it in writing. Like obviously I love books, you know, you're a writer, you love books and you love to read, I'm sure. But, um, experiencing it from the person and being able to be in that presence, you can really sense something different I think then just reading. Um, so I love that you highlighted that. Is that how you found your type?

Chichi Agorom: 23:19

um, actually, no. Um, I think that it's, it's what gave me a lot of compassion for other types, but my, now this is, I'm taking off the Ingram professional hat. This is just my personal experience. There were a lot of panels, um, that I sat through with people observing or being on the same panels with people who identified as fours. And I every time was like, I'm so confused because I really think that this is my type structure, but I don't know what these people are talking about. I don't relate. And I think that part of that is due to, um, some misunderstandings around like the core parts of the type core structure. I think there are a few types that are, you know, kind of talked about with just like stereotypes that don't allow space for the complexity of being a full person. And I think a four is one of that for sure. But I think that in the same way that some people have these correlations of, um, if I have anxiety, I must be a six. Um, then there's this,

Steph Barron Hall: 24:30

if I, have feelings,

Chichi Agorom: 24:32

or if I have mood swings, I'm a four. and there were many panels where I was like, I think actually this is a, maybe like this is more of a mental health diagnosis than you are in your grand time Like, I don't know that you are actually primarily a four. I do think that yes, you, you experience these characteristics, but that's not the same as the core motivation of the type. And so I actually, I most times, and this still happens to today, I feel most connected listening to fives on a panel. Um, I feel like, oh my people, it's not my primary type, but it's my predominant wing. Um, and more and more now I'm finding other people who identify as four is that I feel a sense of connection with. But for, for the longest time at the beginning I was like, wait, are these my people? I'm confused.

Steph Barron Hall: 25:21

Yeah. Yeah. That's such a great point. And I think I. Have seen that some too, just with, um, the focus on things like belonging. I think I heard that initially a lot with my, um, when I first learned about the in agram and recognizing that, okay, maybe that's a social instinct thing. Maybe that's more of a nine thing. Um, and then also the sense of like authenticity. Um, I feel like for force that matters, but it's not like authenticity in the sense of like, I don't know. Right. It's authenticity in the sense of I do know. Um, it's not, you don't have to search for it, like it's there more. So, is my sense about force.

Chichi Agorom: 26:04

Yeah, that's a good distinction. I would say that that rings true for me. Mm.

Steph Barron Hall: 26:09

So then when you found your type, I'm curious if. like you had an experience of feeling like exposed or like, oh, I don't want, want this kind of, or was it like, oh, this is me. Like I, I see that.

Chichi Agorom: 26:22

It was a little bit of both, I would say. Um, there was a part of me, like I mentioned before, that felt very seen by my initial exploration of the type, particularly feeling less alone. Um, and that's part of the story, right? That's connected with the four experience in general is I feel alone, I feel misunderstood. I feel like it's just me. My experience is solitary. So learning about the Indio grammar learning, oh, there's millions of people like me, felt like, oh, okay, I'm actually not that special. And that feels nice. Um, I, I don't, I'm not outside of a circle actually. I'm, there's, there are many other people in this circle and that felt really. uh, freeing in a way. And then of course there were the, the parts of it that I was like, Ooh, I don't like that. And I don't do other people think of me like this. I don't, I don't want that. I don't want people to think of me as, um, too, you know, emotionally sensitive, which is feedback I had gotten as a kid, or I don't want people to see me as dramatic or, you know, all these sorts of things. And so, um, I think this is where something I've noticed within myself and then I've noticed with other people as I've done agram work with them, is that we can, we can have this, um, subconscious tendency towards performing health. You know, when you come to the Ingram, you learn about your type, you learn about the strengths and the challenges. You're like, okay, I don't, I know that people experience fours or knives or whatever like this, and I don't like that. So I'm gonna try to present myself and show up in a way that doesn't look like that, that doesn't portray those characteristics to make sure that I'm still acceptable, I'm still lovable, whatever. But, but that's not actual freedom. that's not actual health. Right? Um, and so I started to do that for a few years, was like performing the version of the healthy four that I thought I needed to be, to be okay versus actually practicing being with reality, being with myself in reality, offering compassion for the version of myself that I was in the moment, not the version I thought I needed to be to be loved. And that's of course, ongoing practice. But that was like my first, you know, learning about the type. And then it's like, ooh, okay, now that I know about this and I know how this impacts other people, how do I shift to make sure that they still like me?

Steph Barron Hall: 28:55

Mm-hmm.

Chichi Agorom: 28:56

which is a different question in comparison to like, how do I get free? those are two different, um, questions. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 29:04

Yeah. And I think it can be painful to get that sort of feedback when you're not, um, like if you really don't feel like. Anyone really likes you for who you are, can be so painful to get that feedback of like, who you are is too much or it's too dramatic or it's too emotional, too sensitive to anything really. I think that can be so painful. Um, and I have seen that too, you know, of like the performing health, or even like this year I've just been, um, when I've gone even on Instagram, like there have definitely been things where I'm like, oh, that's not really actually just explaining my type. You know, like that's, that's really like a misunderstanding I think. But then other things that people point out, um, about my type in particular and recognizing, okay, maybe I wanna deny that, but actually is it true? And like you're saying, sitting with.

Chichi Agorom: 29:59

Yeah, cuz that that is, The work that we're invited to with the Ingram, I, it's, it's about coming back to reality in nine different ways. We want to shift reality, modify it, edit it, change it, you know, all the things. And it's hard for all of us to just be with reality. Um, and in reality, I am exceptional. I'm unique, I am boring. I am inadequate. I am average. I am amazing. All of those things are true in reality. But if I spend all of my time trying to, uh, avoid or deny or shift reality into what I think it should be, into the version I think I should be, in reality, I never get to accept and love the parts of myself that hold the things I don't like. I never get to, to receive the affirmation and love that is available to me because I keep hiding those parts of my. I keep, um, shaming or critiquing those parts of myself. Um, and we can't grow without, you know, it's like you can't leave the place you're at without first admitting that you're there. And I think that that's, that's the hardest part for a lot of us is because we want to see, we see that the things that maybe we wanna shift or change, and immediately we go into problem solving mo mode. Like, how do I fix this about myself? How do I hide this? And there is no space for can I just allow this part of myself to be, I don't actually have to love her and think this is the most amazing part of myself, but can I just let her be instead of trying to kick her out or hide her?

Steph Barron Hall: 31:45

Yeah. Hold her at arm's length almost. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think in your book, I love the way that you. Use, you know, you frame this, this, the types in the, the form of the word armor, like that's the word that you use. which I'm not sure if that's a narrative Enneagram, like if that's the way that it's taught there, or it's just like your word that, and I love that terminology. Um, so why do you use that? Like, why is that framing important?

Chichi Agorom: 32:14

Yeah. So it's, it's, um, it's terminology I, that felt true to me as I was learning. Um, it's not one that's original necessarily with the, the narrative, although there are versions like some of the older writing about the Enneagram, um, like Helen Palmer, who's one of the founders of the narrative, Igram, would talk about types as like a shell. So, you know, there, there are, I, I pull from that lineage in that. Um, but I referred to the types as armor because one of the things that was really freeing for me in learning about my armor was, or learning about my type, rather, was the realization that it is something separate from me. It is not the entirety of who I am. It's a collection of survival strategies I use to make my way through the world, but it is not the fullness of who I am in the world. And I think for so long prior to the Enneagram, I really did see myself as my survival strategies primarily. And so thinking of it as Armor helped me, helped my understanding of it as this is some, these are things that I do in relationship with other people, in connection with other people to feel accepted, to feel lovable, to feel valuable. Um, and I learned to do those things over time because certain parts of me were, you know, praised and affirmed for showing up certain ways. And then other parts of me didn't get that kind of affirmation or praise. And so my brain made correlations and said, oh, this is how you have to show up in order to be loved, in order to be accepted. And so I use those things as armor. I use those things as um, protection. But if I'm able to see that as separate for me, then I create enough space to then be able to choose when I need to use the armor and when I don't. And also it allows space for me to explore what else is true about me. If I'm not just the person, if I'm not just the armor, then what else is there? And that felt really exciting. It felt like, um, you know, like a world of possibilities. If I've only thought about myself as this one thing, this one body. Box and the engram is inviting me to open the box to say, your box is valid and useful and necessary, and there's an entire world outside of it. Then what else can I find? What else, what else could be true about me? And so in my process and my personal exploration, that is why thinking of it that way was helpful for me. But then it was also particularly helpful because I'm a black woman who exists in a society that is not made to support or protect black folks and black women. And so in many ways, I need my armor on a regular, almost daily basis. Right? But at the same time, I was learning, uh, through my trainings that the goal was kind of to live this undefended unarmed life. You know, we learn about our types, we learn about how they were formed in childhood. We think about how, um, it was necessary for like maybe 10 year old you or 15 year old you. But now, now that you're an adult, you can realize you don't need those patterns in the same way anymore. And you can step into this vulnerable, undefended way of being. And I kept feeling like this really works for only one group of people because I can't live in that undefended vulnerable state all the time and remain alive, um, in the world that we live in and with the identities that I hold. And so, and at the same time, there was like a rise in conversation around vulnerability in general. Brene Brown's books were, you know, like trending and there were lots of really good conversations people were having about being vulnerable. But again, it felt like it was centered around the experience of people who don't face that much harm or as much harm when they lean into vulnerability, when they set down their armor. Because they live in a society that is built to protect and support them. And so it was really highlighting for me that the work, our work is different based on our positionality within the system that we live in, based on the identities that we hold and carry. And for me, my work is not to do away with my armor because I actually still need it. It's not just something I needed when I was younger. So then what, what is my work then if I, if my life and my everyday existence still requires armor, and yet I'm learning that there's so much more to me, then my armor, then what, what is my work? How do I get free? How do I heal? And so that's, that's kind of what my focus was with the book. And really just this idea of us being able to create space between self and the armor so that I have access to choice. I have access to. explore the rest of who I am without the armor, so that I know what safety is, what safety looks like in my body, where relationships are safe, where I feel like there is joy and connection and love being offered. And then I have choice to say, okay, in this space I don't need this armor. I don't need to perform for love here. I can put this down and allow myself to be tended, to allow myself to be seen and cared for and loved. And at the same time, in the spaces where I know that there isn't safety and there isn't love being extended without shame, I can put my armor back on because I am responsible for keeping myself safe. And so it's not a thing of shame. It's not like I'm regressing. It's not like I'm not healthy. But the work is to realize I am not the armor. I get to use it, but it is not the entirety of who I am. And that part feels liberatory while we still live in a world that requires arm.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:24

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I love that perspective on using it right of, of like being very compassionate about it and also recognizing, um, your choice in it. Um, because it is, I mean, and we can talk more about the power aspect and power and vulnerability and all those dynamics, but like being able to determine like, I have this power for myself that I can use. Um, and, and I know that you also are really intentional about creating those spaces that are really safe for other black women with an in agram world to experience that too, because, You can see how some of these other dynamics are happening and it's, it's not serving you and these other black women as well in the way that it needs to.

Chichi Agorom: 39:14

Yeah, and I think there's a lot of like demand from the external world, you know, for. People to be vulnerable. It's like vulnerability has become to some degree, like, um, social currency. You know, like, let's take social media for example. Let's take Instagram for example. Um, sharing, sharing your life and sharing who you are is how you build a following an audience. Um, and now you're like beholden to these people to keep exposing yourself as a way to gain whatever an audience. Capital and vulnerability isn't social currency, right? That's not, that's not the same. And, and, and vulnerability should be earned. There are certain spaces and there are certain people who show you with their track record that they can hold the vulnerable parts of you as sacred. Those are the people you go to with your vulner. Really Right. But I feel like in general now there's this push towards we just all need to share. We just all need to. And, um, that, again, that doesn't work for, for a lot of people who hold marginalized identities, because many times when we step into vulnerability, we're punished for it. If the larger group doesn't want to hear or acknowledge or admit to whatever it is, we're being vulnerable, vulnerable about, we are the ones who bear the brunt of that. So it's not a, it's an uneven, unfair system. And yet there is this common language around what health and healing and, and wellness and wholeness looks like, again, which prioritizes the people with the most power. And that's why I think these conversations are helpful because it's important to recognize it's not, it's not a binary, it's not that the opposite then of being. Vulnerable is to be completely cut off from self and completely armored, right? It's to be able to have that knowledge that, that body awareness of there is my armor that I need and then there is me and I get to tend, to me, I get to be vulnerable with me. Cuz one of the things that I also see personally and then in working with people with the Ingram is, um, I really believe how we do one thing is how we do everything. So we use our armor to protect ourselves from the external threats and, um, external fears, but that's also how we relate to ourselves. So if I'm not, if I think that the only, the only way you would care about me or find me valuable or lovable is if I offer something to you that's unique and different and exceptional, then I am also spending my time diminishing, criticizing, um, being mean to the parts of myself. That I experience as ordinary or boring or inadequate. Right? So that's part of my work too, is that's, that's the vulnerability of holding myself in, in reality in the present moment. Um, which requires me to again, create that space between the armor and myself

Steph Barron Hall: 42:32

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I think that's so beautiful. And like also clarifying, like there is an essence that is deeply. Good and, that to be with that is a good thing. And to also know that not everyone gets to, to see that, and sometimes that's okay.

Chichi Agorom: 42:56

and that us seeing it too. Not to say it's an exclusion of other people, cuz we do need other people, but I can also spend time seeing. noticing, witnessing those parts of myself and that too can be healing instead of only waiting for it to be affirmed, validated, seen from the outside,

Steph Barron Hall: 43:17

Yeah.

Chichi Agorom: 43:18

which is a story I would say maybe is more true for heart types, um, to threes and fours cuz we tend to outsource our sense of worth and validation and approval. And it's like, how you see me out there is how I must be. And so then a lot of the work is, well how do I, how do I see me? How do I offer myself some of that affirmation and validation and love that I think is only valid if it's coming from the outside.

Steph Barron Hall: 43:44

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, um, and I love too what you're saying about safety because like, in terms of com, like I do think that we have to have that sense of community. Like we're so individualistic and especially like, I think a lot of Ngram work can turn into that, and I don't think it makes us better. Um, but it can be so risky and quite vulnerable and recognizing the spaces where we can allow. those, those other people to see like the good in us and we can verify the good in them in those, you know, sacred spaces that can be healing too.

Chichi Agorom: 44:26

Yes, absolutely. And I think part of that work too is realizing how much, how much of our healing and freedom and wholeness is interconnected, right? So there's my armor that I used to protect myself. But then part of my work is to think about how my armor, my story about how the world must be and how people must be. How does that make it less safe for you to put down your armor? If I am for example, holding myself to this standard of, you know, you have to be exceptional and you have to be interesting. this is, you know, a real example is that I will, I have caught myself over and over again dismissing people that I don't think are interesting enough. Because part of my story, part of my armor is you have to be interesting to be loved. So you have to keep my interest. And that's again, it's how we do on things, how we do everything. So I'm doing that to myself. I am doing that to you. And then in turn, you might not feel safe enough to be your full self around me because you can feel my judgment cuz I don't think you're. Interesting enough. Right? And in, in nine different ways, we all do this, like our armor interacts with each other. So our work is not just individual, to your point. It is collective, it is recognizing that the more I do the work to create space between myself and armor, it also helps me see, um, or be more mindful, responsible for when I pick up that armor and how I am using that armor. Because my, my primary intent is to protect myself, but I'm also responsible for the fact that the impact could be harmful to other people. And then if we bring in the conversation from earlier around power and vulnerability, people who hold the most amount of p of power in our society and in different societies across the world can, um, create even more harm with those, those stories that they hold about, this is the way the world should be. This is right and wrong. and now I have the power to enforce that, to make that law, to make that, um, the standard that everybody else adheres to. And in doing so, I'm causing harm and restricting freedom, but it's because I really believe that this is the right way to be. Right. So a lot of this work, as we start with the internal also has to come. Towards the collective.

Steph Barron Hall: 46:50

Yeah, yeah. And I love that too because as you were saying, like, okay, I think I, um, like maybe I would sense that sense of judgment and then I would be like, put on my armor even more. Like we kind of get more entrenched in it when we're in those spaces. And then I would think, like from what you wrote, like I, okay, I have to be successful, to be loved. You have to be successful to be loved. So unless you're really successful, I'm not going to even care about you. And then somebody else has their different thing. And, and I think for me, the, the, there's the other part of like, as a three, there's that aspect of like being unemotional. Not the threes are unemotional, but threes believe in they need to be unemotional to be successful. so then saying other people be emotional. It's like, oh, something's wrong with you Like, and, and needing to reject that and how much we get entrenched in that.

Chichi Agorom: 47:44

Yes.

Steph Barron Hall: 47:46

I'm gonna have to think about that

Chichi Agorom: 47:49

Yeah. It's, it's a, you know, when we widen it in that way, it, it can feel overwhelming, but it's also like a really good invitation to step outside of us just thinking about us.

Steph Barron Hall: 48:02

Yep.

Chichi Agorom: 48:02

It's like, and I think it helps build compassion for, if I am in a relationship with someone who identifies as a nine and I have my like judgments and criticisms about not being interesting enough, of course they show up even more like numb and adaptable because they're like, well, I don't want that. I don't want her to judge me. And then it perpetuates this thing, and then I can be just really dismissive and say, Ugh, you just need to, this is the pro. This problem is about you. And I never paused to practice curiosity about how is my story, how is my armor influencing this dynamic? how is this my own expectation or interpretation of how I think people should be and the world should be and how I should be? But the good news is that the more we keep doing our internal work, the less, you know, it's like in the narrative we talk about how, um, your time doesn't disappear, like over time. Uh, it's not like you get to some utopia and it's like, now I've arrived. I know I've learned all my bad four things. I'm the healthiest version of myself that could ever exist and have no more work to be done. This is lifelong ongoing and ongoing commitment to yourself to continue, I think of it as to continue being human learning how to be human. Um, but what does happen is that when we start off unconscious or unaware of our type structures, it's like tight fists. We're holding really tightly to this story that we have. Whether it's that you have to be successful to be loved, or I have to be exceptional to be loved. We're holding onto it like this with the tight fists. And the more we do the work, what happens is that we loosen our grip on those stories. Sometimes those stories are necessary so we're not throwing them away completely. But again, it's that what else could be true question? And the more I practice asking that question about myself, The more access I have to ask that question about you. Instead of keeping you, like holding you Also in this tight grip of this is, well, this is how you know I'm gonna dismiss stuff because she's not in contact with her feelings and the way I think everyone should be to be healthy right? And so it's, and that's, that's my story, but that's not actual reality. So then I get to be curious about what else could be true about you. If you don't have to be tied up in my story of what the world should look like. I get, I'm offering you more space to be human around me,

Steph Barron Hall: 50:31

Mm-hmm.

Chichi Agorom: 50:32

which is the gift we all need.

Steph Barron Hall: 50:34

Yeah, it is. And I think, I mean, yeah, and I, I love this too, that like, just because yesterday I had this moment where I was like, at Trader Joe's and literally there was like, do you ever get the sense that somebody can see right through you and I, I, this person, like one of the check checkout people, this is like so vulnerable to share this story. One of the checkout people like looked at me and I got that sense. And I think it's probably, cause I just came back from this like long retreat and I'm just like very, having to kind of like work to, to keep myself, you know, separate and like, you know, everything. Um, and it was a moment where I was like, this is when I can use that. Like, this is when I can like, hold myself like in the sense of, I don't have to be completely open all the time. Like I don't have to be porous or absorbing all the time. Um, and I think for me, it's easy to believe that, my role is to be a conduit for other people's experiences and recognizing like, oh, I can have my own sense of self and I can like, hold that for myself. and so then talking with you about it today, it's like, oh, it was like that recognition of like, I can use the armor here. like I don't have to always be pushing toward like dissolving the type structure.

Chichi Agorom: 51:54

Yes, absolutely. Because then that becomes like binary work, right? And we're, we're trying to free ourselves from this binary, but then we bring it back again when we're thinking about health and growth. It's like, okay, now the only way to be a healthy three is to always be poor us, is to always be forests. It's to always be moving towards vulnerability. And there are just times and experiences where that is not actually the healthy choice. You know, it's not a b. So. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 52:21

Yeah. I wanna talk a little bit more about power, because I love the way that you framed it in your book and, um, like the soc the social work perspective on power. so for those who aren't familiar with the concept, could you just briefly explain a little bit about the, the power over power with and power within, and why that's so important for us to acknowledge.

Chichi Agorom: 52:43

Yeah. Um, so like, like you mentioned, you know, it's, it's, these definitions are used a lot in like social work and in, um, justice work spaces, but the brief explanation is that, um, there are three kinds of power, um, power over being power that's really characterized by control and dominance and, you know, it's power over other, other people, other things. Um, power within is the power that we all have. Like to the, the sense of efficacy to be able to shift something no matter how small and power with is our collective power, that allows us to come together and use our, you know, collective force for good to get things done. Um, and the United States is a very, and, and most of the west is a very power over culture. Um, there's a lot of exerting control and force to make things, how the people in power want them to be, and then to maintain those structures based on what the people in power want them to be. And, um, there, there are many ways that I, I tied that in, in the book, but I think the primary way or reason why I think that's important for us to name is because, um, the combination the. the, the influence of power, or I'll say yeah, the combination of power and our type structure, power and our armor can make situations, spaces, environments, the world more safe or less safe for people. And this is similar to what we were talking about earlier, but there is a responsibility for the people who hold the most power in our society, which to name that is white, um, male, cisgender, heterosexual, uh, Christian, uh, educated. You know, like all of these identities, neurotypical that are protected and that are, in the center, if you will, in our society, uh, are the ones that typically have access to more power in certain areas. And then, the other identities of people who hold marginalized identities, whether that is race, sexual identity, gender, um, immigrants, uh, different levels of education, different body types, right? Like people who live in larger bodies, people who live in fat bodies. Like there are all these other areas of, or other identities that our society marginalizes and those people tend to have less power to affect change. And so there is more responsibility I think for those who hold the most power in society. If we're having these conversations about vulnerability and growth and wellness, quote unquote wellness, then in my experience in those settings, I wanted to hear the people who had power saying it is my responsibility to figure out how the combination of all the access and power I have with this story, with this armor I have helps to create. An unsafe environment for these other people to be able to practice putting down their armor. If, if I'm saying, if I hold all this power, and I'm saying the healthy life is one that is, you know, undefended and without armor, and yet I am not doing anything to name, to confront, to shift the fact that the society that we live in makes it, uh, incredibly dangerous for anyone else who does not have the support and the protection of the system to survive without armor, then it's really like you're asking people as part of their growth work to, uh, open themselves up for even more harm. And so I think it's a necessary thing to name because it ties in with that conversation around vulnerability. Ties in with a conversation about responsibility, our collective responsib responsibility to each other, to the whole. Um, and then you mentioned this earlier about us living in a. A very individualistic culture, and part of that is sustained by the powers that be, um, So it is, it actually works really well for our systems of capitalism, for the systems of white supremacy, for, um, these oppressive systems. The, the individualism works really well to maintain those because it keeps you focused on only what you need, only what is beneficial for you, and seeing everyone else as other and outside of you. So there isn't this space within those systems to think of our collective healing, to think of our collective responsibility to each other. So it, it makes it easy in conversations about like, healing and, and the Ingram or whatever to say, my work is just to become the healthiest version of myself I can. Be, and when I reached that, you know that I'm doing good and you just need to work on yourself. If you're struggling, you gotta figure it out, Steph

Steph Barron Hall: 58:08

Hmm.

Chichi Agorom: 58:08

Um, but that's your thing cuz I'm taking care of me and that's not gonna help us all get free. That's not gonna help us dismantle the systems that keep us in this power struggle. And so there, there are many other things I could say about it, but that's, I think one of the primary reasons that I think it's important to name because it's so tied to our, fight for expressions of collective healing and freedom. Deliberation.

Steph Barron Hall: 58:38

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's so important. And he's, even, as you were describing it, I was thinking about when I first heard, I think it was actually Jessica Dixon, um, talking about Brene Brown a a bit. Um, and like how a lot of her work has been weaponized by this like white feminist, perspective. Like actually inflict harm. And to me, I was like really curious about that because I was like, huh? Like, okay, so I'm hearing this and I'm hearing this reaction, right? This, this experience of this and being like, oh, that's not my experience of it. So like, let me, let me go investigate. You know, like what is happening here. Right. Um, and seeing how, when we're not recognizing it, we can start to say like, this is my experience, this is vulnerability. I'm being vulnerable. You have to look at it and stare at it and agree with it and validate it. Even if it's not your experience, even if it dehumanizes you. You have to look at how I feel about it and until you do that, there's no space for you. And then, then it becomes power over then that like concept of vulnerability, which is not maybe true vulnerability, but the story becomes power over to where there's no space for anyone else's perspective. And I was like, oh shit.

Chichi Agorom: 1:00:07

Oh shit is right

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:10

I mean, I just, I don't know. It's the thing that like I'm still wrestling with, but like reading your book too, What I loved so much about it is like, I think people look at it and they're like, oh, well I'm white, so that book's not for me. Right. Um, but what I, what I found in it, and this might be incorrect, but what I found in it is like, like until like people who are very marginalized are free, like nobody is free. Right? Like working toward that collective sense of liberation and not denying my own role in that. Right. Like working on my own sense.

Chichi Agorom: 1:00:46

absolutely. And how many times have you looked at an Ingram book? Not my book, but just an Ingram book and thought, oh, okay, I'm gonna buy this one cuz it's for yp.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:58

Never.

Chichi Agorom: 1:00:59

right? So it's like, yes, the title of my book says, for Black Liberation. And yet, you're right. There's like a lot of like, oh, that book is for black books. That's not for me. And yet, you know, it's like, oh, I'll do the, I'll post the square, the black square, and I will donate to these organizations. But there's just this that, you know, that the reason why I'm one of the reasons why I made it very clear with the title of the book, even though I do say in the book, this work is for everyone, right? I am prioritizing and centering the experiences of black women in this book, in this conversation about the Enneagram. But this work is everyone's work. And I think that's important to say, but also, um, maybe funny is not the right word I want to use, it's a little amusing to me to watch the responses because there are so many, every other book I read before my book was written, in my learning process with the Enneagram was written by people who do not share my lived experience. And that's what I was still required to learn from, to see as the essential texts for my learning process. And it was just like the required, you know, but nobody ever said, okay, so these are the books about, uh, the engram from white people, centering white people, everyone's story in this book, who is, you know, sharing their experience as a white person. But here you go, And so that, it's, it's like, that's why it's amusing to me to see the discomfort sometimes, you know, because I'm like, it's, it, it's part of the, the function of the system is that you are kind of oblivious, unaware to how everything is catered to the center. And then when there's something that's blatantly not, it's like, oh, well, can't participate in that. Um, but. that's a mini rant. I was gonna say something else in response to that, which is just to reiterate that, um, yes, what you took away is what I wanted, uh, people to take away. That we can't all be free until the ones who are the least protected are free. You know, um, this is not work that only, it's not true liberation, and it's not true freedom, and it's not true wholeness if it only works for the people who are centered. And so it is important then, like you said, to figure out what's my role in bringing this liberation in, you know, joining forces to make sure that I'm doing my work to create that space between myself and my armor. I'm taking responsibility for the ways in which my armor plus power can create more unsafety, um, in the spaces around me, in the relationships around me. And then on the wider scale. And then I am doing the moment by moment work to pause and make conscious choice about how I want to show up, knowing that this is for me and. This is for the collective

Steph Barron Hall: 1:04:01

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's really powerful just because there's even more depth and meaning behind it and like even more, you know, strength of behind it and, and like the importance too is really prioritized. I also think that when we talk about, you know, did I ever look at an Engram book and be like, this one's for white people. And it's like, no. And also, like, the closer you are to the center, the more it is, the easier it is just to see your experience as neutral

Chichi Agorom: 1:04:31

And to teach the Ingram as neutral. Sorry to interrupt, but that's the other piece, right? Is like, it's when I, and I, you know, the people I learned from are all white folks, so it's like it's taught like this is a neutral system. It's not but like you said, the closer you are to the center, it's easy to just see that experience, your experience as.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:04:51

Yeah. And then when you contextualize it a bit more and you look at the different like layers of like, well, maybe you're an eight, but maybe it shows up this way. Maybe you're five. But it shows up this way because of the cultural context that's super different. Like it, it comes across really differently. And um, it just feels a lot more comfortable to me to be like, let's just not think about that. Right. But that's so incredibly harmful and it's, it forces me to look at my own shadows, right? Like to look at my own sense of discomfort and. Why I don't wanna feel it, you know? So then it's like there's even more work. Look, lucky me, there's even more work for me to do.

Chichi Agorom: 1:05:37

Yes. Yeah, and that's the work. I think in many ways we all wanna shy away from, but that, that is the work that frees us. That is the work that helps move us forward. and, and it is work. You know, it's like, it's not like a, I think this is also another element of a society that we live in where we want, like fast food type of growth and healing. It's like I pull up to the drive through, I order transformation, I move to the next window. I pay for it, and bam, I am a new person. I have arrived. I don't have to do any work. That's, that's, that's the world that, you know, that's a society that we are steeped in, the culture that we're steeped in. So then that carries over to our desire to learn and unlearn and grow. And so then you find that you get to a point and it's like, Ooh, well that's too much. Like I really loved this idea of us all being free and. you know, fighting for justice, but I'm tired now, so can we skip to the part where it's done or like, I just am gonna remove myself from the, from the fight because it's just too much work. which there's, there's something to be said there for like the lack of resiliency of American, particularly white American culture, um, in general. And when it comes to things like this, because so much of the society is created to insulate you against discomfort. So when you're being invited into work like this, that requires becoming friends with discomfort. You know, you lasts for about five minutes,

Steph Barron Hall: 1:07:16

Mm-hmm.

Chichi Agorom: 1:07:16

and then you dip out. Um, and that's important to name and that's important to recognize. Most of the time when I'm working with people one-on-one, that is like, one of the things I say most often, discomfort is our friend, you cannot be doing this work. And also trying to avoid discomfort. It's not possible. You have to learn to be okay with it. To sit with it. You don't have to love it, but you have to be, you have to learn to accept it as part of the process and not run away from it. Otherwise you never actually get free.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:07:46

Yeah. And I think that too is like, For those of us who are fairly self-critical, I think that's part of the reason why it's so important to like practice more self-compassion, because if you are always feeling uncomfortable in your growth work and then you're also beating yourself up on top of it, that's just horrible It's like you can't do it, so you have to make more space for the imperfection in yourself. I think.

Chichi Agorom: 1:08:12

Yeah, and over time, hopefully that turns into, you know, like using myself as an example, when I first started my Ingram journey, just personally, I felt like. Okay, so what you're telling me is that the parts of me that are ordinary and boring are and inadequate are still okay, all right. Maybe I'll just try to allow them to be. And then over time I have built a different relationship with those parts of myself where I no longer, Hmm, let me not say it like that because it's still a practice, but, um, it is so much easier for me to see those parts of myself, myself more regularly as lovable. You know, like I feel like I started with disdain and I moved to Nu Neutrality, and now it's like I am actually really boring. The people who know me the best, they, they see the parts of me that are exceptional and fun, but also they know that I, when you ask. Like me, what I've been up to. And I say, oh, not, not much. I really mean it like I'm not doing that much. Um, but before I had this, you know, uh, autopilot subconscious drive to make sure that I seem exciting and interesting and adventurous and there's a little bit more room now to be like, sometimes I am exciting and interesting and adventurous and sometimes I do absolutely nothing and lay on my couch. And both versions of me are wonderful,

Steph Barron Hall: 1:09:51

Mm-hmm.

Chichi Agorom: 1:09:52

Um, and now because I'm spending less time trying to hide those versions of me, I'm actually free to think about other things, to experience other things, to have a different relationship with myself and other people cuz I'm not trying so hard to perform this version of me that I think they will love, which has allowed space for me to then actually really feel the love that's there. From the people who see the boring and adequate ordinary me and are like, yeah, I'm still here. Like, I'm not disappearing because you're not entertaining me. Right? But if I wasn't practicing making space to notice those parts of myself and to let them be, I would still maintain the story that nobody loves, the inadequate version of me, or the ordinary version of me. Meanwhile, there's love available. I just had to open myself up to it. Right? There's a, I want to say roomy, but it might not be roomy, and I'm not gonna say the quote perfectly, but I think it's something like, um, your task is not to search for love, but to search for all the barriers you've created within yourself to, to, you know, keep out love. Um, and I, I, I love that, and I think of it as like a reminder that the love is always present, right? Joy is always present. Um, And my work is not to be like, let me go outside of myself as a heart type. Let me go outside of myself to perform so that you give it to me. It's what are the barriers that I've created or that circumstances the, the world that I live in, society I live in have helped to reinforce that. Keep me pushing away, fighting away the love that could be there or that is already there for me. Um, and I think that's one of the gifts we get as we practice making space, is that you might notice that there are people who have stuck with you and love you and see you even when you fail. Even when you screw something up, they're still there and it doesn't, to them it's like, yeah, and you're still Steph, right? Um, and if you don't make space to pause and really let yourself notice that and really take it in, you will still stay in that stuck story of, Nope, I gotta be successful and I can't fail, or I'm not a. Acceptable.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:12:14

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. okay. I think that's a great place to wrap up. And I'm curious, what are you working on now? Where can people connect with you?

Chichi Agorom: 1:12:26

Um, so I am offering, cohorts like Steph had mentioned in the beginning, um, for black folks it's called at Ease and we have three each year. So, um, the last one for this year is already in motion, but the next one will start up in January and I work one-on-one with people using the igram for personal development work. Um, I'm working on some creative projects hoping to launch those soon. But the best place to stay in touch is, um, my website, which is chichi aurora.com. You can sign up to join my newsletter, and so you'll be the first to know. Have any updates you can also follow on Instagram. The Enneagram four Black Liberation

Steph Barron Hall: 1:13:14

Perfect. I will link all of that in the show notes, and I have my final two questions that I ask everyone. Um, first one is, tell me about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year.

Chichi Agorom: 1:13:29

I memoirs are like one of my favorite genres to read, and I have not stopped thinking about somebody's daughter by Ashley C. Ford, which have you read that.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:13:41

No, it sounds familiar though. Okay.

Chichi Agorom: 1:13:45

Um, I just felt so, first of all, it was very beautifully written, but there were so many ways that she described her experience growing up with her family and just her own relationship with herself and her interior world that made me feel less alone as a human. Um, and yeah, it's such a beautifully written story, so,

Steph Barron Hall: 1:14:08

I love it. Okay, perfect. Going on my list. Um, and then final question, what is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Chichi Agorom: 1:14:15

Is it cheating to use that quote

Steph Barron Hall: 1:14:17

You can use it. not cheating. I was like, this is good advice,

Chichi Agorom: 1:14:22

It is. Um, yeah. I like, I like that that quote, you know, your task is not to seek for love, but to seek the barriers, you know, you've created against it within yourself. Um, and then there's another, I want to say it's by, or it's in a book by Barbara Brown Taylor that I read years ago. And again, I don't remember like verbatim. Um, but it was, it was an invitation to think of wisdom as curiosity and wisdom as, um, like, like praxis. So it's not wisdom, it's not just like collecting the. Is, but it's also about living the thing out and learning from the mistakes. You know, that wisdom is not being perfect. Um, it's about staying curious and then practicing. And that I, that has really been a helpful framework for me and learning what it looks like on a day by day basis to just live. I, I can sometimes, uh, stay stuck in my head and feel like I can only show up with a polished version of me, the wise version of me. So then that reframe, that wisdom is actually the practice. And in practice you fail and that's part of the process. In practice, you figure things out, you stay curious. And that is also wisdom. It's not certainty.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:15:46

Yeah. That's beautiful. I love that quote. and I wanna go and, you know, see if I can find that, that

Chichi Agorom: 1:15:53

Yeah. I'm gonna see if I can find it too. And I'll send it. I'll send it to you. If I find it.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:15:58

Okay. Perfect. Well thank you so much. This has just been such a great conversation and such great learning for me too. And, um, I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom and your experience as a four, um, and as an engram teacher and as a human just living in the world and trying to understand, um, how to best live in the world. So I really appreciate you coming on the podcast and I hope everyone will buy your book because I genuinely have loved it. So, um, yeah, I'm gonna put that in the show notes as well.

Chichi Agorom: 1:16:29

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. This is a lovely conversation.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:16:34

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify