How a Bioinspirationalist Learns from Nature to Spark Ideas & Ignite Action with Dr. Jeff Karp, Enneagram 7

Jeff Karp: 1:30

by getting better at asking questions and finding a way to focus my attention through questions, I was not only sort of stoking my curiosity and activating my brain, but I was like, infusing creativity into my mind into my life. And so, to me, I feel like anybody can do it. Anybody can get better at asking questions. And you can even, you can even bring this to social settings. Like, you know, and. Connect more with people because when you're, when you start to become curious about somebody, that's when I think the real deep connections kind of open up

2:12

Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram and real life. A podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host Steph Barron hall. And on today's episode, I have a really interesting conversation coming for you. So, today I'm actually talking with a bio inspirational list and. Our guests today, we'll actually share a little bit more about what that means. but basically taking, some inspiration from nature to apply that to. Solving problems in the real world. And in particular, this guest is a biomedical engineering professor and inventor. And the author of a brand new book that is out today. I already have it selected on my library app. So I'm really excited to check it out and I hope you are as well. But throughout this episode, we talk with Dr. Jeff Karp. And he talks a little bit about being a kid with ADHD. And his Enneagram type, which is type seven and a little bit about having kind of that maximalist type seven attitude and applying the concepts of radical simplicity to his approach, to his work. Um, he told a story on his Ted talk, which I can link below. about some of the ways that he approached things early in his career and how he changed his approach. To be more simple and actually a lot more successful in developing solutions for everyday problems. So we talked a little bit about what inspired his book, which is called lit life. Ignition tools. what he means by low brain energy state versus high brain energy state. How doing new things can actually help us get into that high brain energy state. A four step process to bring more awareness to ourselves and to our thoughts,, connecting to our census, to help us get out of our heads, which I know for a lot of head types that's really useful. But even for me, that's helpful as well. I'm a heart type, as an Enneagram three, but I have a really difficult time sometimes connecting more to my body. It's a lot easier for me to connect to the head center. So, um, I find that this is helpful for me to, and then we talked about creativity and curiosity. And how small changes throughout our day-to-day life can create more momentum. I think one thing I appreciate about sevens is when they feel like life is stagnant or they don't really enjoy or appreciate what they're doing in the day to day. They say, well, okay, I'm going to change this. Um, if I can't change it, I will accept it. But first I'm going to try to change it. So I really appreciate that about sevens and, um, Dr. Karp offers us some of that in this conversation today as well. So. I don't want to keep you too long here. Uh, I want to jump right into the interview. And like I said, this is such a fascinating and interesting interview. I have never interviewed a guest that was a biomedical engineer and just such a cool job. And I'm so many fresh and interesting perspectives that he offers and, and brings to not only this conversation, but also his book, which I'm really excited to pick up. So. Dr. Jeff Karp is an acclaimed mentor and biomedical engineering professor at Harvard medical school and MIT. As a child, his teacher wanted to hold him back in the second grade. And as an adult, he got his PhD, became a celebrated professor and member of the national academy of inventors and a distinguished chair at the Brigham and women's hospital where he has co-founded 12 companies amassed over 100 patents and received 50 awards. Fueled by his life ignition tools. Which he calls Litt L I T. Jeff turned to nature for inspiration to revolutionize lab practices. Now Jeff is sharing his lessons and his debut book. Lit aims to empower others, to take themselves off autopilot and unlock their own reservoirs of potential. So grab a copy of the book in the show notes, and I really hope you enjoy this episode. if you want to learn more about Dr. Jeff Karp, you can find his website@jeffkarp.com. That's K a R p.com. So, um, without further ado, here's my conversation with Dr. Jeff Karp.

Steph Barron Hall: 6:13

Well, Jeff, welcome to the podcast.

Jeff Karp: 6:15

Hey, it's great to be here. Thank you.

Steph Barron Hall: 6:17

Yeah. I'm excited to talk with you. And, um, I know a little bit about your work, um, just because I did some Googling and I also watched your TEDx talk, which I thought was really helpful, um, about radical simplicity and using failure as. Kind of a jumping off point, which I really appreciated. Um, and so I'd love to hear a little bit more about your background and where you come from.

Jeff Karp: 6:46

Absolutely. Um, yeah, I mean, you know, whenever I get that question, I'm trying to figure out, okay, where do I start? Right? Because there's so many possibilities and talking about failure. I would say, you know, there's just been so much of it in my life and so many struggles. I mean, we could go back and start in grade 2 if you want. Um, we could start in my undergrad and my grad. I mean, there's just so many, so many different ways to start. Um, maybe where we were a good place like to begin is, is, um, Yeah. Yeah. is actually in grade two, because that's where my life really took a massive turn. Um, so I had undiagnosed ADHD and, um, learning differences. I didn't know it. Um, my parents didn't know it. My teacher certainly didn't know it. And I was just struggling, um, so much because of it. Um, I couldn't sound out words. I couldn't really, I wasn't learning anything. Um, I was sitting at the back, frustrated, angry. Kind of demoralized, um, like really not connecting with anyone either. At the end of the year, the teacher sort of pulled my parents aside and said that he would like to hold me back a year and repeat the second grade. And my parents negotiated that if I spent the summer, um, with special tutors and things that I could go on to the third grade. So all my friends went on vacation and I spent the entire summer with, with tutors. And what happened was, um, one day I went in and I'll never forget. It was just such a transformational thing that happened. Because, um, we were like reading this passage, and they asked me some questions, and then they said, How did you think about that? And no one had ever asked me that before. Um, and I was just kind of, it was literally like one of these like light bulb moments that I was like, wait a moment. I can think about how I think I feel like I was like an impulsive child just said what was ever on my mind just did sort of like acted impulsively and things and. It was like this portal or this canvas sort of opened and I could now, before I spoke, it was like this awareness. I had all of a sudden this awareness of my thoughts that I never had before. And, um, And I started to bring that to all kinds of things in my life. Um, just one example, I started to notice like, you know, here's this super distracted kid, pretty extreme on the spectrum. And I noticed anytime I asked a question that I, my attention would be like hyper focused for a few moments and that I could actually learn something and retain something and that it wouldn't just be in my working memory, but it could go into my long term memory. And I could start connecting dots between what I. Already knew and I, you know, so it was like and that totally lit up my brain. Um, and I was like, oh, wow, this is really interesting because I need to ask a lot of questions like that is a tool for me to survive. And, um, and so that's really where things. began and where a lot of the tools that I've been developing. Um, and I, and, and I didn't get identified. Actually. One other thing I'll say is I didn't get identified. Um, the school didn't want, want to identify me, um, because they just were under resourced and didn't know too much about it, but my mom, like was a massive supporter. Went up against the school board in the seventh grade, prepared a massive file on everything, um, all the things teachers said about me, like, you know, they were calling me like lazy and a lost cause. And just, you know, like, um, all kinds of nasty things that she went to the school board and actually push for them to identify me as having learning differences. And I got, um, diagnosed with ADHD and my grades went from season D's to A's. The struggles did not stop. It was still like, you know, I was always like kind of working and exhausted, but I just like, that was a, such a liberating moment for me.

Steph Barron Hall: 10:37

Yeah. Yeah, it's so helpful. Like, I I really like that story too, because I was diagnosed with ADHD at the end of grad school.

Jeff Karp: 10:46

Hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 10:47

And I was like, Oh my God, things would have been so much easier if I had known this all along. You know? Um, it's eyeopening.

Jeff Karp: 10:56

it, it actually, like, I don't know. There's just something about it. I feel it's, you know, it's a personal thing, but there's something about having that diagnosis and being able to sort of rationalize, you know, I don't know, for me, like how my mind works and stuff. And then even my, So, um, during covid, she attended some sessions like group sessions for partners of people who have ADHD and it was like, like, for her, it was like a jaw dropping experience because everybody was talking about the same thing. And it was almost like, I feel like. She felt maybe at times that the things I would say or the things I would do, it was, I was intentionally doing it, you know, maybe to upset her, but like, if you kind of heard like everybody, it was like, that's just how it is. And I mean, I've been trying to develop tools to overcome these challenges and sort of deal with it, but it's still like, you know, every day is a bit of a struggle, I would say, but for her, it was just so kind of earth shattering for her to hear that what she was experiencing is exactly the same as what other. Partners of people who have ADHD experience on a daily basis.

Steph Barron Hall: 12:05

Yeah. Got to get my husband on that, uh, group call every time I leave the, all the cabinets open in the kitchen.

Jeff Karp: 12:13

Yeah. I mean, I leave things out all the time as well, because it's like, if I don't see it, then I don't think about it. So I kind of strategically leave things everywhere and then, but my wife is like super clean and tidy and like everything's super organized, which is amazing. But then I, I forget a lot of things because then I don't see them, you know, like

Steph Barron Hall: 12:31

that doesn't exist anymore.

Jeff Karp: 12:33

yeah, yeah, yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 12:34

Like no object permanence.

Jeff Karp: 12:36

Yes. Yes.

Steph Barron Hall: 12:37

That's so funny. Well, okay. So let's talk a little bit about your Enneagram type, because I think even as people are already listening to this conversation so far, they might already have a guess. Um, so I'm curious if you want to share a little bit about your type and just discovering the Enneagram.

Jeff Karp: 12:54

yeah, yeah. So I'm a seven, um, an enthusiast, um, and I feel like it pretty much fits me to a T, um, and, you know, just, um, I don't know. I just. In my, just give you an example, like in my laboratory, so I run a research lab, um, at Harvard Medical School at the Brigham and Women's Hospital, and my lab is focused on the process of medical problem solving and bringing that to many different problems, and so we don't really have a focus other than the process, and so we've been working on, you know, treatments for arthritis and cancer, And inflammatory bowel disease and developing needles and implants and diagnostic devices. And it's like all over the place. In fact, at one point, the chair of my department came to me and said, like, hey, no, one's going to understand what you're doing unless you focus. Um, and I was, I. Tried to take that advice seriously, but I realized, um, you know, sevens can't really follow that advice because it's like, you know, it's like in the DNA, right? Like the programming, the wiring to really just constantly be interested in new experiences and experimenting. And so I just learned that that really is part of my, that that's what I'm passionate about is just constantly getting into new areas, experimenting with new things. And even with my routines and let's say rituals in life, I'm sort of of the mindset that, um, I never like to keep anything, even if it's going really well for and for a long period of time, because I always feel like there's something else. I want to try. Um, so I, I like purposely sort of break up the, you know, it's like break up the ritual so that maybe there's an opening to something else might come in that I never tried before. That would be exciting to do.

Steph Barron Hall: 14:41

yeah, well, and I think that makes a lot of sense, especially with sevens, like wanting this constant mental simulation, um. And, you know, the passion of type seven being gluttony in the sense of like wanting to just take all of these ideas, sample everything, try a little bit of everything, but you have this tool that you talked about in your TEDx talk, which is radical simplicity, um, that helps you focus a little bit more. And can you share a little bit about that?

Jeff Karp: 15:07

Absolutely. Um, so that actually I learned through a fairly painful experience. Um, so, uh, if we go back, let's say, to, um, 2008, I had just started my laboratory, um, about, you know, in 2007. And, um, you know, it was towards the end of 2008. And we had developed a technology, um, that I was just super excited about. I mean, we were on the cusp of something, what I thought was huge, which was we'd figured out how to take stem cells out of the body and program them so that you could infuse them back into the body through the bloodstream and have them go to different sites in the body, like on demand, like almost like a GPS for your car. We. Figure it out a way to do that with stem cells. So, for example, you know, you could potentially use it to target the bone to treat osteoporosis or to the heart to prevent progression from heart attack into heart failure or to the brain to treat neurological conditions. And we had data showing, like, preliminary data suggesting that we could do this. And so I went to, um, an investor in town, um, flagship ventures. I met with the. The founder and, um, you know, so excited. I couldn't sleep the night before I go in. I'm like, you know, a little bit nervous, but I'm really excited. And I go through the data and I'm kind of like have this smirk on my face. And I'm like, I, I'm like, I, we got this in the bag. Like, well, this is, this is for sure a company materials. And he leaned over new bar that the head of flagship ventures, he leaned in and he goes, you know, this is really exciting, but we're not going to do it. And I was like, what? And he goes, it's just too complicated. And I didn't really hear him say those words per se, because when he said, we're not going to do it, I was like, so shocked. It was, it was like the first major project in my laboratory, um, that I'd just like poured my heart into. I was so excited about it. And so I went back to my lab and I kind of knew Like through encountering so many struggles and failures and challenges along the way that emotions associated with these things tend to dissipate after a day or two or three, you know, just get a good night's sleep. And then that's when this window opens, where I feel like I've gained the greatest insights in my life, like, after a failure, once the emotions start to subside, when it start to be kind of like, I'm a little bit curious about what just happened and sort of connecting things in different ways. And I was like, wait a moment. There's a question that we failed to ask, which is what happens after. We develop a technology in the lab, like, how does it get to patients? We just developed the technology. We didn't even think of the steps afterwards, like going to a clinical trial or the manufacturing complexity, like all these different things. Um, and, um, when I was like, we need to change things. So that's where this concept of radical simplicity was born, which is, I think of it as the art and discipline of minimizing complexity at all levels. So it's like complexity only when needed. And so, um, for every project moving forward in my lab, um, radical simplicity was at the heart of it. And also, you know, I never forgot that question, you know, what happens next? And so I ended up doing all sorts of things. To, to maximize the potential that everything we worked on in the lab, um, could get to patients as quickly as possible. So, um, and there are all kinds of things I do, which I'm happy to talk about. But that, that concept of radical simplicity has just been so critical to everything that we do.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:44

Yeah, that makes sense. And I think that it would take a lot of, um, mental energy to be able to harness that because It's like almost more mental energy than it would take to just be curious and like jumping all over the place all the time.

Jeff Karp: 18:59

Yeah. Yeah. There's some sort of, I don't know, really magical focus that, or this window into a focused state that I think you can, you can step forward into. After a failure, you know, it's kind of like after the rain, you know, like it's just, there's, there's something there that you can sort of feel. And, um, it, it's like these, these sort of like windows that have opened after these challenging times have just been crucible moments in my life. And in some ways I've almost sought them out. Um, and, you know, one of the things I just really want to emphasize in all of this is. My mom's support. And I think this is so important because I feel like just like children need a lot more support than we think they need. Um, and, and I got that, I got that support from my mom. And I think that was one of the reasons why in my life I've been able to have courage to take risks and fairly big risks, even though I've encountered major, like catastrophes and disasters kind of along the way.

Steph Barron Hall: 20:06

Yeah, yeah, I've got to shout out to moms, you know,

Jeff Karp: 20:10

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 20:11

yeah, I remember, um, just thinking about the ADHD thing as well. Like my mom would put me on like a mini trampoline

Jeff Karp: 20:17

Hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 20:18

to help me like, stay moving while I was learning things

Jeff Karp: 20:21

Oh,

Steph Barron Hall: 20:21

and that was so helpful. And we didn't know I had ADHD, but she's like this, this little girl can not focus. So, yeah,

Jeff Karp: 20:28

handle where he's just like a trampoline and there was like a little handle in front of it and you could,

Steph Barron Hall: 20:32

We didn't have the handle. I don't think that they really cared as much about the safety portion. But yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, okay. I want to pivot a little bit and talk about your book, which is called lit life ignition tools. And the subtitle is use nature's playbook to energize your brain, spark ideas and ignite action. Tell me a little bit about your book and how it came to be.

Jeff Karp: 21:00

sure. Um, so, um, so the, the, so, so lid is really all about, you know, just, it's, it's, it's, it's the concept. I think the big idea is really simple. It's taking yourself off autopilot to live to your full potential. And it's this sense that, um. That, you know, we're just inundated these days with information and stimuli coming at us from all directions. And I think it's just more challenging than ever to be intentional in our lives, to make deliberate decisions and to act deliberately and even think deliberately. Um, and. And so lit is a set of 12 simple holistic tools that can help us tap into this incredible energy that we all have within, um, and activate this heightened state of awareness that we can bring to any situation, um, to deepen our everyday experiences and really build and develop. Tensionality into everything, and it kind of came to be because, um, and my wife actually reminded me of this, um, that when she met me, um, back in the year 2000, I used to carry around all these notebooks and it wasn't like I was doing like serious. Journaling, but I would just write down my thoughts. Um, and I said to her, apparently at one point that I was going to write a book one day. Um, and so what happened was, um, like seven years ago or so an agent from New York reached out because we do a lot of work in my lab, uh, in bio inspiration. So turning to nature for inspiration for new ideas. Um, and you know, we've looked at like how geckos walk on surfaces and hang from a single toe and there's no chemistry there. It's all kind of physical geometry interactions. It's really interesting. And we've looked at slugs and snails and sandcastle worms and. Porcupine quills and spider webs and jellyfish and, you know, all kinds of different things. We're looking at a lot of creatures in the ocean now. But there was an article in Fortune magazine on some of the work that we had done. And so Heather Jackson from New York reached out and said, Hey, how would you like to write a book on bioinspiration? And I thought about it and I was like, you know, actually, that sounds pretty interesting. But what I'm feeling more, what's really transmitting, you know, kind of more for me. Is to write a book about all of these tools and strategies that I've been developing in my life through all the struggles with learning differences and ADHD. And that's what I really want to share. I don't know. I've always had this sort of inner desire to share. Like sort of to figure out processes that work for me and then to share it with others. And so when I do my scientific presentations, I don't show that much data. I actually talk mostly about the processes that I use to figure things out. And so this book to me was really how can I just share with the world all of these processes and tools that I have used to kind of get back up from the struggles and the challenges that I face. And to really just thrive in life and in every possible way,

Steph Barron Hall: 24:08

Wow. I, that's so cool to think about, um, solving things as nature does because obviously we can learn a lot from nature in general. Um, wow. Okay. I, I don't have like a coherent question.

Jeff Karp: 24:25

Yeah. I mean, I could say one more thing about it if you want is like, you know, it's like, you know, the way I like to think about nature and there's so many ways that I think about nature. So I'll just talk about one here is, um, Evolution is the best problem solver, right? So like anything that's alive today, you know, plants or animals has overcome insurmountable challenges to be here. Like there's all sorts of changes that have happened in the environment and these creatures have adapted to survive. And so we're literally surrounded by solutions, and so these can be ideas that we can learn from, gain insights from, to help solve problems. Um, and there's so many examples, like even like, you know, examples people might be able to connect with, like, In Japan, the high speed train, um, they were, they were going through these tunnels and it was breaking the sound barrier and created these loud noises. And so they changed the shape of the, um, the front of the train to mimic the Kingfisher, um, bird, which like basically dive bombs into the water to get its Prey, and so they did that so it would prevent these loud booms, you know, from coming out of the tunnel. And there's just so many examples. There's like a beetle in the desert that can collect water on its back, like through like the moisture in the morning. And it has these little micro channels that it then it like directs it to its mouth. And so people are now using that to collect fog in, um, you know, very dry places to then, you know, collect water.

Steph Barron Hall: 25:55

That's so cool. So fascinating.

Jeff Karp: 25:58

Yeah, nature is like just so, um, I mean, there's so many facets of nature and I think, you know, we're kind of also getting to this point where the science is, is, is becoming more and more, um, developed and understood about how, when we go out into nature. How it can switch, help us switch from like the, the sympathetic nervous system to the parasympathetic nervous system and really lower our heart rate and our blood pressure and, um, can give us a greater sense of well being and develop an interconnected mindset. And so, um, and it's all there, right? It's like, right. Um, and, um, even watching a show, like if you put, if you just put on like a nature scene, like on YouTube, for example, that's been demonstrated to have an effect as well. It's not exactly the same magnitude as if you're out in nature, you know, having that experiential time, but just watching nature. Um, is has been demonstrated to help people like just have this better this sense of wellness and sort of calming, um, sense. And so I've been experimenting with all kinds of things in nature recently.

Steph Barron Hall: 27:09

Oh, so cool. Um, Yeah, I think one of the things that's related to that, that you mention in your book is about the high energy state or, um, the brain and like a high energy brain state versus low energy state. And I'm curious if you can share a little bit about that.

Jeff Karp: 27:23

Yeah, for sure. So, um, so this is kind of just how I kind of think of this, how I have experienced it. And so what I've noticed is that my brain gravitates towards this low energy brain, um, where it kind of anticipates what comes next. It's like this autopilot mode. Um, you could even call it like the, the low energy state, the, the sort of a, um, this, uh, um, uh, Like, I'll give you an example. Like, let's say, um, you're on your cell phone and it tells you, you need to update your password and so you update your password, but then the next time you enter the old password, so that's like the autopilot or sometimes let's say, if you're driving your car and you get to the destination, you completely forget the route that you took. Um, that's like this low energy brain state. Or if you get to the end of a meal and you're shocked that it's done, you can't even remember a single flavor. That you've experienced, um, or if you're walking around your neighborhood and, you know, you're just sort of like lost in your mind and you're not really experiencing anything with your senses. Like, that's kind of an autopilot mode, or when you're reading and you read a page or a paragraph and just nothing has sunk in your mind to someone like that's autopilot. And so that's like the low energy brain state. And so, to me. There's all kinds of things we can do to activate our brains, and this has been essential in my laboratory because we're working on some really hard problems. And so I think, you know, 1 way is turning to nature for inspiration is a way to bring in fresh ideas and fresh energy into projects. Um, so, you know, literally, like, just going and looking in the literature on what people know about how Ivy's able to walk, like, to basically. You know, crawl up buildings and put their little, um, root hairs in and shrivel up and mechanically interlock. Like, it just, this is like fascinating, like activates our curiosity, activates our brains. And so there's so many things we can do. To get our brains into a high energy state. And that's where we do our best learning. That's where we sort of make the best decisions. That's where we do our best thinking. Um, and so in the book, you know, talk, talk a lot about all the different tools that we can use to get our brains into this high energy state so that we can really, you know, maximize like connections with people and deep, bring deep meaning to our lives and really maximize innovation in our. In the workplace, for example.

Steph Barron Hall: 29:54

Do you have an example of one of those tactics?

Jeff Karp: 29:58

Sure. Um, so there's, there's, there's, um, okay, so I'll give you, um, an example. There's so many examples. So when I'm asked for an example, I'm like, okay, which one do I pick? Um, but you know, one thing, for example, is so one of the tools is, is do new. Um, and it's about how I, because I think what happens is, is that as humans, we kind of gravitate towards, you know, the low energy state is also kind of, it's like habituation, right? Like, we kind of get used to something and our, our, our neurons, our receptors, you know, the neurons stopped firing at the same magnitude as they did when we were learning something. And so it kind of settles in and we get kind of dealt with. This is like this dulling effect. And so anytime we do something new in our lives. It really just like our brains love it. It's just like our brains literally glow orange on an MRI when we're engaged in new activities when we're kind of and so you know one example is like, you know when I was in high school and I was just you know, struggling a lot with a You know with my learning differences in ADHD and even though I had been identified and diagnosed It was still like, you know, I was meeting with teachers after school every day on the weekends. I was going in. Um, and, um, and there was this track and field day and, um, I was not athletic. Like, I was the kid who, like, only got on base for baseball. When I got walked or when I was hit with the ball, like that's like, well, that's like, you know, just never athletic, but a track and field day, for some reason, I just felt gravity towards discus. There was like, um, you know, and so I, um, and I, you know, I know wasn't very good at it, but I bought a discus and, you know, arrived at my house. And I went and the art teacher, I knew the art teacher knew a little bit about discus. So I went and I just said, Hey, can you show me how to throw it? And so he actually became my coach and I started to learn how to throw discus. And it gave me this like sense of purpose, this like fresh energy in my life. And it just helped with everything else that I was doing. And I actually ended up placing like third in my city. And then I got to go on to like the next, because I, I would just, I loved it. I mean, it just was something to look forward to every day. Yeah. And, uh, in my laboratory, you know, if we kind of just fast forward to my lab, it's like we're working in so many different areas right now. And to me, that's like doing new on a daily basis. And I just love learning about new things. And, you know, there's a certain vulnerability that you need to have, I think, to. Embrace new things. But once you experience that fresh energy and you feel like your brain being activated, like there's all sorts of neurotransmitters that are associated with like dopamine and endorphins and serotonin and oxytocin and you know, all kinds of things. It's just to me, it's just something that Is a goal of mine on a daily basis, you know, and now it kind of comes more naturally because I've just been doing it, um, a lot, but, um, it's something that anybody can engage, um, you know, in their lives and just bring in that fresh energy on a daily basis.

Steph Barron Hall: 33:07

It kind of sounds like you have a natural bent toward this, but what if people are built a little bit differently and they're really intimidated by not knowing anything? How can we change that mindset?

Jeff Karp: 33:20

So I think one way is, um, so one of the processes I like to engage, um, it's like a four step process. Um, and I call it flip the switch, um, which is noticing your inner desire for possibility as the first step. So this could be in a relationship or it could be in like, you know, a hobby or a skill that you want to learn or the workplace or something with personal evolution. And like, just sort of. Being aware and open to the cues, you know, I feel like we're constantly getting cues from our minds. Our bodies are very intelligent. We're getting cues from the body and we're getting cues from other people that we're interacting with. And, um. And so I feel like this just just sort of noticing this inner desire for possibility is the first step and you know, it takes time. It's just sort of like tuning into those cues. Sometimes we need to sort of slow down a bit, create a space in our schedule to be open to the cues. And by the way, this is one of the things I found that's so incredible about. Like technology and it, you know, it lets in my relationship with technology because I've been like, okay, I don't want to be on my cell phone as much. I don't want to do this as much, but that never works. Like if I just say, okay, I'm going to reduce it. But if I say I want to be open, my intention is to be open to the cues from my mind and my body. I can't get those cues if I'm on my phone. Right. And so I need to put the phone away. So I found that by setting the intention of being available to these cues and noticing my inner desire for possibility, then I just, I naturally, I'm not going to go to my phone because I just have to sort of sit with it. And my thoughts are sort of, you know, maybe the racing or maybe, you know, they're kind of sitting in one place or another, but I'm just starting to sort of get a feel for like, how are my emotions, my feelings? Like, what am I excited about? Um, so. Cool. Once you sort of notice that, the second step is to take stock of what's working and holding you back. And so it's kind of going through and saying, okay, maybe I'm doing a bunch of things in my day that I really like, but maybe there's this hobby I used to have when I was in high school or in, you know, and I haven't done it and I'd really like to get back into it, but I feel like just so busy and I don't know where it would fit in, but I really like sort of like figuring out what's working and what's holding you back. Like, oh, that hobby really Brought energy to my life and I don't have it right now. And then the next thing is sort of thinking about other ways of thinking and other possibilities and sort of, you know, and this is, you know, and again, it's like bringing awareness, um, and sort of engaging in a process. So, it's, it's the, the goal here is not necessarily to just do something new right away. It's really to find a process to engage that can just open your mind a little bit and to create a little. space for you and to be able to then just take a small step forward. And so for me, that kind of step of, of, um, noticing other possibilities, other ways of thinking it's, it's maybe like having conversations with other people, like, Oh, like how did you like, what were your hobbies when you were younger and how did you start getting back into them? Or you seem really passionate about this. How do you find time for that? And I feel once you start to kind of bring your awareness to these other possibilities. You start noticing people talking about them all the time, right? It's like, it's like sort of like when you go outside and you walk somewhere every day and then finally you see something and you're like, it's been there the whole time, but you've never seen it because you just didn't have awareness to bring to it. And then the final step is just taking a deliberate step forward. Um, and. To me, that can be a small step, um, and so, again, I just feel like there's a lot that we can do, but if we sort of look at things, and I've, this is kind of how I think about everything in life, is like, if I'm not doing something right now that I want to do, or that I'm not good at, it's because I'm not engaged in a process that works for me, and I need to figure out that process. And so the focus becomes on the process and not the end goal. And every time I feel like I'm able to focus on the process, I make steps forward.

Steph Barron Hall: 37:36

Yeah, it's just a more open minded approach, I think.

Jeff Karp: 37:39

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 37:41

It's kind of funny, I um, I've told this story before, but recently I was walking, actually this was like a year or two ago, so not that recently, but I was walking in my neighborhood on the same path that I always walk, right? Like, just making my same loop, and I was not paying attention. I, I think I must've just been looking up because I definitely wasn't looking down, like, and I wasn't looking at my phone, but I was listening to something and I heard a noise in front of me and I looked up right before I almost, like, ran flat into a wild turkey that was right in the sidewalk. I was so close to just like walking into this thing and those are huge and they're mean. You do not want to kick

Jeff Karp: 38:23

We have some in my neighborhood. So yeah, I know. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:27

was like, Oh my gosh, what am I doing? I'm like, not even aware of my surroundings. And I think that it can be so easy. It's like that habituation you were speaking about earlier, just to be in that, that kind of loop and to not hop out and be like, Oh, actually what's happening around me.

Jeff Karp: 38:46

Yeah. So I've had the exact same experience. And one of the things that I've done to try to, um, evolve, let's say. Is as I'm walking outside. I've been experimenting with cycling through my senses. So let's say I have two dogs are actually sitting beside me right now. Well, one's here. One's back there. But, um, I, when I walk them, I'll say like, okay, site, and I'll try to just focus on looking at, like, the texture of the bark on the trees or the color of the leaves. And then I'll say sound and I'll just, you know, kind of try to focus on my sense of sound and listen for the birds of sort of like the rustling of the leaves of the wind through the, and then I'll say touch and I'll feel like the wind against my face or like my feet kind of hitting the ground. Usually I'm sort of slow walking at this point because I'm really trying to tune in and, um. You know, you could say taste, I mean, you know, if there's something left from breakfast in your mouth or something like that, or smell, you know, sometimes there's a smell in the neighborhood, but I find through doing this, it really helps me to get out of my head and to get more into connecting with my senses. And I feel this, when I do that, there's this sense of calm, this sort of reduced anxiety, this just sense of wellness, um, when I can bring my focus to my, like, senses versus just be sort of in this, um, state of my mind, just rumination and, and, you know, kind of thinking of what just happened or what's going to happen next, you know?

Steph Barron Hall: 40:17

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And it's just this sense of presence and awareness that can be difficult, especially if you're just like always, you know, fast walking everywhere, which many of us do.

Jeff Karp: 40:29

Oh, I accelerate. I noticed that. So that's one of the things that, um, you know, another tool that I, I go, it's kind of like a key go to tool. I like to think of it as press pause. And it's, um, it's really about, you know, how I found I just need time to process experiences, process knowledge that I've just learned to slow down. And when I do that, when I make that an intention, like if I'm walking, I start to bring awareness to it. And I realized like, wait a moment, I'm Accelerating like every time I sort of, you know, stop, look at something. It's like I accelerate forward. And so kind of getting in touch with that and slowing down has just, it's just expanded my mind in so many ways. Like even just sort of when I look at the birds and I'm just now I'm sort of. Interested in seeing how they're communicating with each other and seeing how, you know, the squirrels, like, what are the pad? Like, there's so many patterns to sort of recognize when you're out in nature of how different birds kind of interact with each other. And, um, like, this morning I was, uh, we have this pond not too far from my house. And I, I, um, I drop my daughter off at school, I take our two dogs through the woods and then I sit down and I have my breakfast and I like to now sit on this rock and just be at the pond and there were like these two swans that were there and, um, these two ducks kind of swimming towards me and, you know, I was just like, I was, you know, it was just so peaceful, but yet I'm also sort of, you know, Curious about what they're doing and like, you know, like how their relationships going and, you know, there's just so many things to think about, right? When you, when you start to go outside and connect with that and really get in touch, I think, with the nuances of life.

Steph Barron Hall: 42:15

Yeah. Yeah. It's so intentional. Which takes a lot of energy and also creativity. And I think that's something that I've been thinking about a lot as we've been talking. And I think there are a lot of people that I've met anyway, who just feel like they're not creative. And I wonder how you navigate that, especially in talking about this in your book about harnessing creativity and energy to improve our wellness overall.

Jeff Karp: 42:44

Yeah, yeah. I think there's sort of like this general belief that, um, people like, you know, can't, they're either creative or they're not creative or you can't really get better at being creative or there are certain activities that are creative and others that aren't. Um, and what I found actually. Maybe I'll go back to, um, my first year in grad school, um, because this, I feel like really unlocked my creativity, um, what I'm about to say, and that is that, um, so I get to grad school and I go to these seminars and, um, you know, I'm barely able to pay attention, you know, kind of not really sure what's going on just a little bit here or there, get to the questionnaire at question time at the end of the seminars, like for invited speakers. And it's like, yeah. People like someone over here are like, you know, three o'clock sweater vest asked this incredible question just cuts to the heart of the whole presentation. And I was like, Oh, my God, this is such an important question. Why didn't I think of that? You know, what's wrong with me? Like, you know, start like shaming myself. And then, you know, someone over here on my left asked like this amazing question. And I'm just like, again, why is that? Why am I not thinking of these questions? Transcribed Um, and here I was, you know, having worked on developing tools and questions have been such an important part of my life. But yet these questions were not coming to me. And so I knew by that point that. Like, I was like, okay, there must be other possibilities here. Like, I noticed my inner desire for possibility to get better at asking questions. Um, but I really didn't know what to do. And so I just sort of sat with it for a while. And then I was like, I started to think like, I used to play chess with my dad a little bit. And I think, you know, what separates like an amateur chess player from a master chess player is pattern recognition, being able to think, you know, like 10 moves ahead or, you know, whatever, 12 moves or whatever it is. And I started thinking like, okay, maybe I can bring pattern recognition to this. What if I go to seminars and write down all the questions that people ask? Um, and so I, I literally did that for like, you know, a couple months and then I stopped and I looked through and all of a sudden I noticed. That all the questions that people were asking at the end of seminars, that there was like five categories. Sort of just that, that I could put these questions under, you know, like related to like, can we trust the data? You know, did they, did the experiment run properly? Are the results important? Did they run the right statistics? Um, did they overstate their conclusions? Like there were a bunch of like categories. So then when I went to the next seminar, it's like I had my detective hat on. Now I was paying like. Detailed attention to everything they were saying, because I'm looking for holes and what they're saying, because I want to ask one of these important questions at the end and what happened was, is that that, like, all of a sudden, and so now paying more attention, I'm imprinting the knowledge more into my mind. I'm learning more, but I'm also starting to recognize that I'm connecting dots from what I know before to what they're saying, and I start coming up with ideas. I'm For what they could potentially try next. So by getting better at asking questions and finding a way to focus my attention through questions, I was not only sort of stoking my curiosity and activating my brain, but I was like, infusing creativity into my mind into my life. And so, to me, I feel like anybody can do it. Anybody can get better at asking questions. And you can even, you can even bring this to social settings. Like, you know, and. Connect more with people because when you're, when you start to become curious about somebody, that's when I think the real deep connections kind of open up and, uh, and so I think, you know, and I've done this too, is just sort of in social like networking events or whatever it is. Sort of, there's always a few people who are really great at socializing. And so I listen to what questions they're asking. And then I start to think about asking those types of questions to then connect with others. And, you know, then it's like when you, you form that connection and then when you listen to the answer, you deepen the connection.

Steph Barron Hall: 46:46

Yeah. I like that you. Um, and I think it's really important that we use that kind of as an invitation to learn how to solve this puzzle versus over identifying with, oh, I'm just not good at asking questions like it became a puzzle to solve.

Jeff Karp: 46:59

Yeah, and that's the thing like I realized like I, I used to have that mindset and I feel like I've been able to Rewire it over time and that's another thing like I think like we have like our Neuroplasticity our ability to reprogram our brain to rewire our brain to strengthen connections prune away old connections It's like our evolutionary inherited It's like, everybody has that capability. Like no one can take that away from you. Like, you know what I mean? Like nobody can take your senses away from you. Like you always have that. And so what I found is that when I am more intentional with things in my thinking, in my actions, then I develop these new patterns. I develop new habits. And so I can now like shame myself much less than when I used to, um, because in, and instead of saying like, oh, I'm bad at that, I just think, okay, I probably just haven't engaged a process yet that works for me and I just need to find it.

Steph Barron Hall: 47:59

I appreciate that. Like the yet portion of that a lot. or advice can you offer to people who are really struggling to, you know, shake up their routines or maybe they're feeling stuck and they want to create more positive change in their world.

Jeff Karp: 48:17

So I'm a big believer that, um, you know, most things that we do have a domino effect, um, throughout our lives and, and in the lives of other people. And so I think that, um, you know, sometimes with our, our busy lives and, and, you know, back to back, you know, whatever we're doing, um, I think that there's like literally tiny little changes that we can make in our life that will start to, um, build our confidence. To then and, and create momentum for us to, to take bigger steps. So it's really about just trying to find those tiny little things. And, and this may sound silly, but some things that I've done before is like brush my teeth with the other hand, you know, cause it, it kind of shakes up your brain and it feels really weird at first. And you're kind of like, I'm not good at this and it takes me twice as long. So why, why would I do it? But I find when I start doing it. And then if I stay with it for a few days or a week or whatever it is, and I start getting better at it, and it's like, I'm literally rewiring my brain in the process. And I think once you start doing that, your brain wants more of it, and then it's easier to change other things in your life as well. So there are, like, you could just change the route that you drive to work, or you could train, change the path you take when you walk around your neighborhood, or, so just making these small changes in our lives, I think, like, it, it activates our brains, it starts to rewire them, um, and it opens the door to, to, to make it easier to make other changes in our lives. And so I think that's kind of what one of the things that we can do.

Steph Barron Hall: 49:59

Yeah. It's like something simple, but also something that has a little bit of an injection of fun or joy or curiosity or gamification. Like that seems to be a really helpful aspect of that.

Jeff Karp: 50:14

Yeah, for sure. And I feel like there's this, you know, practicing, something can get boring at times. And I feel like if we can find ways to infuse joy in our practices, um, and, and I think part of that is being open to the cues. Like, let's say if you start brushing your hand, your teeth with the other hand. It's not going to be a fun experience the first time, but like two or three times later, you might be like, wait a moment, I'm kind of getting a bit better at this. And that feels there's like this incremental good feeling about that, you know, and so tuning into that for for making these changes, I think, can also be really, really helpful. So looking for, um, like, sort of tuning into when our brains get excited and feeling that fresh energy being infused in. And, you know, we can also change, like, You know, the way that, that, you know, sometimes I'm like, Oh, why am I using this tone of voice with this person every time, or why do I interrupt them or why, why am I not holding space for them? I feel like there's, so we can make changes like that, like before going into conversations with people, let's say if I'm meeting with people in my lab, I now have this ritual where I'll say, this person is the most important person in their life. Right? And so if I say that before I go into the conversation, it sort of sets the tone in my mind that then creates this reference point or this sort of, you know, this, this grounding for the whole conversation. And so these are the tiny things that we can do that can just start to create, you know, get the ball rolling and create this domino effect for more change in our lives.

Steph Barron Hall: 51:54

Yeah. Yeah. I like that a lot. Um, I heard I was, uh, just reading this book, um, this week about feel good productivity. It's by Ali Abdaal, who is one of my favorite YouTubers and he wrote this book and he talks about being sincere, but not serious. Approaching things with sincerity, but not being too serious about it. Like having that lightness, which I really appreciate. And I think that's reflected in what you're just sharing. Yeah.

Jeff Karp: 52:29

these two ducks kind of fly down, and the part of the pond had frozen over, and they landed right in front of me, but they just slit, because they landed on the ice, you know, and I was just like, Kind of like noticing that and sort of realizing like, that's a pretty funny thing, you know, like, I don't know, just, I thought it was ridiculous, right? That they like landed and they just kind of slid, you know, like, it's like, um, and, and, and I just feel like there's these, there's these nuanced things happening all around us. And if we just bring our awareness, our attention to it, we start to realize that, um, that, that there's just so many things out there that. Yeah. Can stoke our curiosity, but also make a smile. Make us laugh. You know, they're all right there. Um, and I'll give you another example. And maybe this is a little too far out there, but, you know, I, um, actually, there's a couple examples, but one is if I look outside, right? And I see like a tree blowing in the wind. This happened to me recently. I was thinking to myself, okay. I could think of this as just the wind is hitting the tree and it's blowing back and forth, but I could also think of this as like the tree is waving at me, you know, like the tree is waving at me and that will make me feel good. Right? Like, wow, I'm like connecting with the tree. Right? And I don't know, like, I just feel there's so many things like that. A friend of mine bridge, he said to me, he said to me recently kind of connected to this. He goes, you know, if somebody built a bird, like actually made a bird, he said, um, And then showed it to people, people will be like, Oh my God, this is unbelievable. But yet here we see a bird and we're just like, Hey, that's a bird, you know, and it's that sense of like, how do we, it's like, just by naming things, I feel like it just this kind of human nature to put things in boxes, um, and to have just nomenclature for everything, it really takes away from the connection that we can have with it. And so I've been also trying to do that as a practice to kind of, when I see birds, I'm not like, oh, that's a bird. I'm more like, just like, wow, like, how does it fly? And look at that, like, you know, how is this possible? And, you know, like, look at the pattern of the flight and, you know, just trying to kind of tune into these types of things. I feel it also just brings a lot of joy to my life and, and gratitude as well.

Steph Barron Hall: 54:50

Yeah. And having that interaction with nature too is required because you can't really observe it. I mean, you could watch it on YouTube, but like I had a dove fly into my house recently and I was like, oh my gosh, it was like a little stressful actually, but it landed on a picture frame. And I was amazed that this picture frame didn't budge. It's because the dove was so light. And I am still thinking about that. Like, I'm like, Oh wow, that's so crazy. Like how light that animal is. It looks really plump, you know, but it's actually weighs probably like practically nothing. And, you know, it just made me think about all these different things about how doves are and, and birds are. And, um, but it's that up close interaction in some sense that allowed that concept,

Jeff Karp: 55:37

there's there's a number of books that have been written recently about awe and how it literally is just like all around us, and it's almost like we've been habituated by our culture or other things to not sort of make it a priority to embrace. But when you start to develop an awareness, um, that, that is something you can access on a daily basis, you know, all the time, um, it really does bring a sense of wellness to our life and, and, you know, stokes our curiosity, activates our brain, all sorts of positive neurotransmitters. It's just really good for us. To to experience, uh, you know, like looking up at the night sky and seeing the sea of or ocean of stars or, you know, just, um, just, you know, thinking about how trees like are able to bend towards the light. I was I'm getting involved in actually some initiatives in Panama and I've been to the jungle there and there's a tree. There's like a tree that literally walks like it has these, um. Parts of it, uh, you know, parts that kind of go out to the sides and then what happens is it walks towards the light because the parts in the middle that anchor into the ground like die and then it creates like a new sort of like root system and it just allows itself to pull itself through because in the jungle there's just so much vegetation there. That it's just this massive competition for light. And so now there's a tree that's evolved to be able to walk towards the light. Um, and you know, these things are just unbelievable.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:10

that's incredible. Wow, nature is so cool. I, I learning more.

Jeff Karp: 57:17

Yeah. I mean, there's just so many example after example of, you know, and then even just like thinking about, I mean, it's an example people talk about a lot, but just like caterpillar going to a butterfly. I mean, it's just unbelievable to think about, like, how does that happen? And I feel like. You know, maybe we've heard that a number of times, but there's just so much there. And I think the onus is kind of on us to, to sort of take away that nomenclature of like, Oh, that's just a butterfly, or that's just a caterpillar. Or we've talked about that so much. Why can't we move on to something else? But like, there's just so much to embrace in that and be curious about, and be just awestruck by what's happening all around us in our backyards.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:59

Yeah. I'm really excited for, for myself actually to get my hands on your book, but also for our listeners too, because, um, just thinking about these ideas is so helpful to be like, Oh, I could just like, look out my window today. And encounter something new or think about something differently just by observing nature. So I'm really looking forward to reading your book and learning more about that. And I'm wondering if you can share where people can find you and your work and your book.

Jeff Karp: 58:27

Absolutely. Um, so I'm just in the process of putting a website together. Um, my name is the easiest one to get to is, uh, jeff carpe, carpe with a K dot com. Um, and, uh, we'll have, uh, I'm going to have on the site, um, you know, information about the book and my laboratory, um, you know, some of the projects that we're working on, the bio inspired work. Um, and, um, and also I'm going to have a part on the site for my mom to post her poems. So she's been writing poems. She's written like 300 poems in the last year or two. And, um, and, and so I, I like to call her in the morning and have her read me like a couple of her poems. And so, you know, just, she's just been so supportive. It's kind of like the least that I can do, like, and she's really excited about it. So you'll be able to go to the site and read my mom's poems.

Steph Barron Hall: 59:16

Oh my gosh. I feel like your mom is going to become an internet sensation.

Jeff Karp: 59:19

Yeah, I hope so.

Steph Barron Hall: 59:20

it. Um, okay. So I have two last questions that I ask everyone. Uh, first off is tell me about a book that has helped you, inspired you, or shaped you in the last year.

Jeff Karp: 59:32

Wow. Um, so I would say, um, well, there's a book called, um, Into the Magic Shop, um, by, uh, James Doty, who's a neuroscience, uh, actually a neurosurgeon at Stanford, and it was a book that just, it's just such an incredible story, um, it tells, it talks about his struggles early on in his life, like through his childhood and how he went into this, um, this magic shop because he was interested in magic. And the person who runs the shop wasn't there, but the mother was, and she was basically like, I'm going to show you what real magic is. And it was all about compassion and how to learn to be compassionate towards yourself and others. Um, so it was just this unbelievable story. And, and, um, you know, I have a hard time reading, so I listened to it, but actually I've gotten better at reading so I can focus my attention more, but I listened to it and I just loved it. It was, it was amazing.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:30

Okay. I'm going to go on my library app as soon as we hang up and find that because that sounds excellent. Um, okay. Last question. What is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Jeff Karp: 1:00:43

So, um, when I was doing my, my, uh, postdoctoral fellowship at MIT, um, with Bob Langer, um, who's just unbelievable mentor on every level. I mean, he's just, he's actually co founder of Moderna and a number of other companies, and he's just such a good person. Um, and he has given me. So much advice. But one of the things that really stands out is he said, you never want to limit anybody. Um, and it's something that I have really thought a lot about, like, as a mentor, you know, running a research lab with a bunch of people and just kind of thinking, like, there's so many things that bring energy to people's lives, like extracurricular activities or hobbies or things like that. So sort of seeing people's lives as being very holistic, that it's just not about um, What they're working on at that moment. It's really These other components of their life are so important to elevate everything, like they're going to do their best research and their best work if they're constantly evolving and trying new things and getting involved in activities and, and, and also. Working on other projects, like, collaborating with other people, not just having 1 project, but, but, you know, sort of letting them be empowered to use their curiosity to explore things that maybe aren't related to what we have our grant funding for things like that. So. Yeah, never limit anybody just, yeah, that jumps to mind is something that's really been important in my life.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:02:13

Yeah, that's great advice. And it's also, it also kind of reminds me of your story overall, where in second grade you were almost held back. And then, you know, now you work at Harvard, you did your postdoctoral at MIT and like these illustrious institutions that as a second grader, you know, I don't think that your teachers would have expected that from you.

Jeff Karp: 1:02:34

Yeah, they said, well, they asked me, what do you want to be when you grow up? I said a doctor and they said, well, you better set your sights lower because you don't have it in you. Um, to do that, that was, that was one of the things, yeah, that, um, that happened. Actually, what ended up happening is I did apply to medical school and I didn't get in. Um, so that was one of the big kind of, um, challenges that I faced at one point. So maybe they're right about that. But, um, my career kind of took a different trajectory. I became very excited about, um, problem solving and just this process of medical, medical problem solving. And, and I've just found it, you know, just so exciting. And every day is, is, is, um. There's just so much fresh energy, there's so many problems that are just so important for us to help patients, um, with, and, and that's what I've really dedicated my career to.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:03:24

Yeah. And it's life changing for people.

Jeff Karp: 1:03:27

It is life changing, yeah, yeah, I mean, we have, we've had a number of technologies that, you know, are in clinical trials now, a bunch that have actually made it to, um, you know, to patients, and so it's just super rewarding to see people benefit from the technologies that, that we've been, you know, working so hard to develop in the lab. Yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 1:03:46

I think we could talk for another hour about all of these projects that you've developed, but I think we should wind it down here. So thank you so much for joining me. This has been a great conversation and I've learned so much and I'm excited now to go on my next nature walk.

Jeff Karp: 1:04:02

well, it's so nice to speak with you. I really enjoyed this as well. And, um, yeah, thank you so much.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:04:07

Of course. Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify