Not Perfect Enough to Be a Perfectionist as an Enneagram 1 with Dani Cooper

Dani Cooper: 1:30

You're not your type, but, finding out about your type will help you see how you've been really living into type and that you're just so much more.

1:46

Hello, and welcome back to any gram in real life, a podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host Steph barren hall. And on today's episode, I am talking with an Enneagram one. So today I'm meeting with Danny Cooper and I've known Danny for a few years. We actually met through some Enneagram coaching circles a few years ago. And, yeah, we've just stayed connected and I really loved Danny's perspective. And today you're going to hear what it's like to be the one-to-one or the sexual subtype of type one. Because I think that the way that Danny has shared about that. Um, throughout the time that I've known her, husband's super helpful. Um, just for me to understand a little bit more of that, that type, but also to understand some of the differences between some of the other subtypes of type one and that this subtype that we're going to be discovering today and coming up, I have a couple of social ones. Um, that are going to be on the podcast, but. Here's the thing. If you know any fives, I know I haven't had many fives on the podcast. Um, but if you know any fives who would love to come on the podcast, or if you've heard them on other podcasts and they know their type. please feel free to send them my way, shoot me an email. And I'd love to interview them because it's actually pretty tricky. I've asked the number of fives, and they either said no, or I'll get back to you and never did. which totally understand totally their prerogative, but I also would love to have a more even representation of all nine types. and we try to do that, but it's trickier than you might expect. so that's a little caveat there, but today on this podcast with type one, we talk a lot about some of Danny's aha moments realizing that, okay, she is a type one, but then that feeling of I'm not perfect enough to be a perfectionist, which I've heard from a lot of different ones. and then perspectives on relationships within this subtype, the one-to-one subtype, and then growing up with negative messaging, what that does to our brains and how we think about ourselves. Danny's a type one myself. I share a little bit about that as a type three. and how. Danny has really used her background and some of her different paths along the way. Similar to last week's episode, Danny shares a little bit about her process. leaving the church and the religion that she grew up in and, um, how that process has opened her eyes and opened her mind in a lot of ways. But I also think it's really helpful because Danny and I talked about, uh, what's appropriate. Um, like how do ones define that? And if you are one, I'm curious, um, you know, how you define that for yourself? What is appropriate mean of how do you determine if something's appropriate? Because we talked about that versus image, um, and how. You know, threes have this tendency to morph into like the perfect image. Um, and so there can be that same perfectionism, but it's really about. Changing the self, whereas. For one it's really about being appropriate. Um, and it comes from a little bit of a different lens. And so Danny explains that from her perspective. So. You can find everything, Danny at deep waters, enneagram.com or her Instagram deep waters Enneagram. Um, so Danny Cooper is a certified Enneagram teacher, coach, and totally biased cheerleader for individuals, couples, and teams who want to find out who they really are and grow beyond the armor of their Enneagram types. She is the author of the book, the Enneagram for Christian couples, which came out in 2022 and her life's work is learning how to love herself as a messy, imperfect, and absolutely enough human person. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Danny Cooper.

Steph Barron Hall: 5:14

Danny Cooper, welcome to the podcast.

Dani Cooper: 5:17

Thanks, Steph. It's so fun to be here.

Steph Barron Hall: 5:19

Yeah, I'm glad to get to talk with you about the Enneagram today, especially your type. And I have to say, I haven't had very many Enneagram Ones on the podcast yet, actually, that have been published. I've been recording the episodes, but I've found Ones and Fives to be the trickiest to actually really find people who want to talk about that.

Dani Cooper: 5:41

So you record them and then something happens where it doesn't, doesn't get published?

Steph Barron Hall: 5:46

Well, no, they're just like in the pipeline. They're

Dani Cooper: 5:48

Okay. I see. I'm picturing one going like, wait, actually, I think that was awful. And I have all of these things I'd like to change. So can you please not publish that? I

Steph Barron Hall: 5:59

That did happen one time and I was like, no, it sounds great. Like, let's just, let's just do it, you know?

Dani Cooper: 6:04

Good,

Steph Barron Hall: 6:04

Um, so love to hear first off about who you are, um, your background and how you got interested into the Enneagram.

Dani Cooper: 6:17

Okay. Well, let's see, whenever anyone asks like, who are you? It's really hard to know where to start, because like we're all a lot of things. I think of myself as someone who's learning to be more her real self and the training ground for that is, um, I'm a mom. I, um, someone who loves nature and finds a ton of therapy outside and in the sunshine. Um, I love plants and animals and, um, I've been married for a long time. It would be better if I knew the exact number, but like, I got married, we've been married like 27 years, which is crazy to say you've done something for 27 years. So, and, um, you know, I love connecting people. With who they are to, and so my own personal journey has been like, how do I get to know my real self? And that has spilled over into like, everyone should really know who they truly are. And, and so the Enneagram came into my life at a really interesting time because I was on staff at a church as a worship leader and I led worship there for like 17 years. Um, as I was raising my kids and, um, figuring out faith, and I was a big part of that church, uh, for a long time. And then, um, as churches often go, there were hills and valleys, and, um, I was starting a descent into a, like, deconstruction place, a place where I was really wondering, um, if all the things that I've been believing and I'm using, I don't know if I need to I don't know. Um, air quotes, but, like, I was questioning some of those beliefs and so in a staff meeting, um, we were doing, uh, a team training type thing and the road back to you across, um, across my desk and, um, I started reading it and it wasn't my 1st. So, dipped into any a gram pool. In fact, it had been many years before, but I sort of put it aside because I'm like, well, I mean, it's not in the Bible. And so maybe this is sketchy. And so I kind of put it off to the side. Then when it came back, kind of nicely packaged in a, you know, a Christian publisher and put this out, it felt like it had more credence and I could have some safety in exploring it. So as an Enneagram one, I think the structure of, um, and the belief system that was undergirding everything, um, Prevented me from seeing the Enneagram until that moment and so then it kind of opened up the door to reading about it. And then, of course, people often describe it, uh, you know, reading the type one was like, Okay, why does that sound too real right now. So, um, that's sort of how I found my type and the journey that I took to get there.

Steph Barron Hall: 9:25

Yeah, wow. Um, yeah, it's kind of interesting that you mentioned that because I think that that's something that a lot of Christians do struggle with that the Enneagram, not all like I think that obviously there are so many different, um, shades and colors of, of Christianity, of course, but, um, I have heard that a lot. And in fact, people DMing me like the Bible says this is wrong. And, you know, that sorts of, And of course, the Bible doesn't say that the Enneagram is wrong, but

Dani Cooper: 9:53

No, but people make that leap, don't they? They're like, what are you doing? You know, it's a slippery slope. Don't you know that sort of mentality,

Steph Barron Hall: 10:01

right. And I think I can understand that in a sense, like I understand the fear of like straying into like a forbidden territory and becoming corrupt somehow because we can't trust ourselves or whatever. But I appreciate that you were able to kind of connect with it because you were able to kind of look at these other cues of like, my church is talking about this, like, it's from Zondervan, etc. And yeah, so it kind of allowed you to be like, okay, well, maybe it's all right.

Dani Cooper: 10:33

And so I'm grateful that, um, you know, Enneagram crossed over. Into the Christian circle, because I, you know, there isn't a person that I have ever met or know of that couldn't benefit from understanding themselves more deeply. And if you want to take it from a faith perspective, it's like, um, you know, I used to love John Calvin when I was, um, in the Presbyterian church and, um, he's like, you know, if you really want to know God, you should get to know yourself without knowledge of self. There is no knowledge of God. And so I really honestly believe that that understanding and I definitely still have a concept of the divine and my faith is actually stronger having been bored in the crucible of deconstruction and really parsing out what things, um, were meaningful to me and really hold a held a lot of wisdom that, um, that that's available to people who are in a space situation, whether they're struggling with it, or whether they feel really good about it, that this is a place where they can deepen their knowledge of themselves and of the God that they follow.

Steph Barron Hall: 11:46

Yeah, yeah, that's such a beautiful perspective. I'm curious if for you there, when you found your type, there were any like light bulb moments? Or was it like, Oh, yeah, that checks out.

Dani Cooper: 11:58

Yeah, a lot of it checked out, um, the inner critic for me was really interesting, because I think most ones would agree that you're not like, you know, that there's this really mean, um, voice in your head, but you're not. Like, you think it's just normal and everyone has it and, um, you know, everyone has a voice berating them all the time and telling them how much better they could have done. And, and, and reading about it in the Enneagram, it felt really great, but it was shocking when I realized that others don't struggle with that so much. So that was one of the things I really resonated with, um, at the outset and then became like curious about, like, wow, well. What would it be like without that voice or what do I do with that voice because I've just been believing it, you know, up until now and wait, there's a different way. And so I think that's what Enneagram unlocks for all of us. Wait, there's a different way. I thought this was the way. This is the lens I see right through. These are the ways I feel safe in the world. But understanding that that voice wasn't necessarily on my side all the time didn't necessarily get me where I thought it was getting me. I thought that was a really a good place to work, but it was difficult for me. I named my inner critic. I like rebuke her to use a churchy word, but like, you know, I kind of had a terrible. Feeling toward her or that part of me when I first discovered it until I recognize that you know, the harder you fight something, the more it tends to persist. And so, um, yeah, I think starting with the inner critic was a, was a good place for me to work as a 1. Now, something I did not resonate with was, um, just like being totally perfectionistic in all areas of life, you know, when you put the name perfectionist on someone. For me, that feels so heavy. And I don't even really like to use that term because it's like, my standards are already so high, you don't need to reaffirm that that's the goal for me by calling me that name. Right. And so, um, I, you know, like, I'm messy. Basically, I was like, well, I'm the worst one. Like, I'm the most, I'm the biggest failure of a one because I'm imperfect in this way, in this way, in this way, and I know other ones could probably agree with that. Although some, I think, really enjoy the fact that they're perfectionistic, but most that I've found like a term like reformer or improver, something like that. I think that's really our heart is to see the things that could be reformed and improved and. But our energy behind that. So those are some of the things that stuck out to me, first of all, and then, you know, maybe being a little critical of others to I, I, I think that that was another place that I started paying more attention to. And, um, yeah, that can be really tough to see some of the darker side of your type. When you read it as well.

Steph Barron Hall: 15:04

Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of funny because I've heard one say I'm not perfect enough to be a perfectionist. Just like I've heard three say I'm not, you know, um,

Dani Cooper: 15:14

That's all enough to me.

Steph Barron Hall: 15:15

enough to be a three, like, and it's just we have these really incredibly high standards for ourselves and, um, it's really, that's where our attention is. Um,

Dani Cooper: 15:35

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 15:36

and I think that that's also, you know, what you're just saying is one of the reasons I don't really use the, the monikers. And my teaching of the Enneagram because, um, I think they pigeonhole us in a way that's not really useful.

Dani Cooper: 15:52

Right. And they're just, you know, if we're going to find our type via the motivation, we don't want to use a descriptor to do that. That's everything that we're trying to fight against, like, Oh, ones are like this. And of course we all think about that, but the motivation is the thing that sets the Enneagram system apart from some other ones that really do just look. Primarily at behaviors versus what's going on behind the behaviors. So yeah, I like I like removing the names as well. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 16:23

I think that one thing that's kind of interesting too, and I've heard you talk about this a little bit, is that once you found your subtype, that was even more insightful into, well, why don't I really resonate with this kind of stereotypical image of the one?

Dani Cooper: 16:39

Yeah, so come to find out. Um, I pretty much figured out that since I forget to eat since I, you know, well, I'm pretty self forgetting when it comes to my own body. The self preservation subtype didn't fit for me, nor did. Just the idea of of being a cooler type person. I tend to have a lot of energy and I tend to have a lot of, um, I think I just feel vivacious. I'm somebody who likes to connect and I think I have a warmer feeling when I meet someone face to face. And so the cooler types of ones that are more maybe rigid or buttoned up or reserved. Those didn't fit me completely. I mean, there are scenarios where those sides of me come out, but ultimately, I tend to be a warmer person that likes to connect with others. Um, and so, and, and the intensity with that, that comes along with it really geared me toward the sexual subtype of one. Um, yeah, so like when I meet someone for the first time, and I love people to not that most ones don't love people, they, you know, they do, but I like want to know you, I want you to tell me your story, I want to like really connect. And so I think that that that tipped me off to the fact that the one to one or sexual subtype was more where I lived, and then finding out that that's the countertype or the one that doesn't look as much like the one that clicked for me. It's like, okay, well, That's why my house is messier than my, my social subtype friend or my, um, self pres one friend. And, um, you know, it actually let some pressure off for me to not have to live quite as far up to that standard. There are other ones that I put myself to, but that one, you know, if we can find one little area to let the steam off, that's really good for us.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:38

Yeah,

Dani Cooper: 18:39

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:41

yeah, that makes sense. And I think, um, that's why I like the subtypes a lot too, because even in my own story, like learning, okay, yeah, I'm the sexual subtype as well. Um, it makes so much more sense. And I think that sometimes that I'm not successful enough to be a three story. I'm like, Oh, I can see how because of my subtype stacking, my attention is not. on that same thing. Um, and so it, it really helps me to understand that aspect of myself.

Dani Cooper: 19:14

I, um, so the fact that the, the sexual one, um, really zooms in to like, um, give a lot of focus and attention to maybe like their primary relationship was another factor in me saying, yeah, that's me. Um, because so my husband and I, I said, we've been married for a long time. And, um, he's definitely when I read that, like, they're. Their partners can be their little improvement project. I know that when he read that he was like, uh huh. Yeah. Now, you know, it's in black and white. This feels really hard sometimes. And so that was, that was hard for me, but there is this idealistic vision of if you just do this, this and this, and we work together on this, we could have this amazing, wonderful, um, legacy of like the most close and committed relationship ever. And so of course, our instincts are such that the thing that we focus on the most is what brings us the most feeling of safety. You know, like if, if that part of my life is okay, then everything else is okay. And that bears out for sure. Like if things are off in my marriage, like if we're having an issue that we're working through, um, it's hard to do life. Everything else in life just feels. Not as important. Does that feel the same to you when you're some type two? Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 20:42

Um, and I think too, I think one of the things that's really interesting is just learning to navigate some of that idealism as well, because I do think that all sexual subtypes have that, um, of like idealizing their significant other or their relationship or like this, you know, ideal romantic connection that they could achieve. Um, and I think one thing that can be hard is. When you're not getting the same heat that you want back from that other person, it can feel like I'm just not important to you, or like, you're not like dazzled by me in the way that I want you to be. And realizing that is so helpful because it's like, oh, it's just like a different perspective. Probably they show importance based on their instincts, you know, um, and, and those things, but like wanting that level of like. Like he, you know, um,

Dani Cooper: 21:35

Yeah, the heat, the heat is where it's at. When we feel the heat, then it's like, all right, I'm good. We can relax and, and feel like things are okay. Yeah. And then like, For dialing it in for oneness, any, so the flaws in my attention to what is messed up, what needs fixing can be really hard when it comes to that. And I'm sure hard to be the recipient of like, we need to fix that. But it almost feels as though a sexual one, like the flaws that my people have, um, will somehow reflect back on me. And then things will crumble and things just don't feel quite as. Secure. So some of that's really hard to admit, but, you know, knowing these things about ourselves and like me being really honest about that gave. Um, you know, my husband and I have something to talk about and like, why it's happening and what sorts of feelings are happening in me when I want to reform what he's doing. And it's just like you said, it's like, it's a fear, like, why isn't the heat there? Why don't I feel the intensity and the connection? Like, what's wrong? This isn't how I feel like it should be. And so Just like any other piece of information that you find out about yourself, there's a reason for it and when we can get to those levels, then we can relate and talk through it a little bit better. So, and yeah, I, I find that when I'm out of balance, meaning I'm leaning really far into my sexual subtype. You know, with all the rules of three, with all the triads and the enneagram, we know that when we're leaning too far into one of those, whether it's our center of intelligence or instinct or any of those triads, um, that that's, that's going to create an imbalance actually. And so the sign for that, for me, when I'm not feeling the heat, and then things are copying, cropping up is that I feel a lot, a lot of jealousy, um, and a lot of competitiveness. And so, that's really rough because, um, you know, as a woman, I'm feeling competitive. I'm feeling jealous. I'm like, well, where is the attention going? Is it? And so then looking for any of the cracks, like, oh, did a person just walk by and, and his eyes went up to it? Like as a woman, it's like, oh my God, this is terrible. Then everything flares up. And so I think it's important to notice the indicators of the instinct being out of balance and that's mine. Jealousy.

Steph Barron Hall: 24:13

Yeah. That makes sense. Well, and I think that's really isn't that one of the names for the sexual one. So

Dani Cooper: 24:21

I like zeal, but yeah, there is a lot of, I mean, you're zealous about really needing, um, the focus to, to be on you so that you can feel like you're okay. Like, what's wrong with me if he's not there, it can be really easy to personalize that. And yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 24:40

I think one thing that's important here too, though, is that we're not saying like, okay, now you, the partner. You need to show up and do all these things and fit this mold. It's really more so that, yeah, we want, maybe want to say that, but it's, it's more so that we're like, okay, I'm acknowledging this in myself and noticing how I can work on that within myself, not always demanding that my partner, you know, serve all of these

Dani Cooper: 25:07

Yep. Uh huh. Right. And that's the healthy way to use that information. Um, again, I mean, I can't say that I have used that information in the healthiest way, you know, and that's the work. It's the noticing it's the where your response gets you like there's different ways I can respond to when I feel that happening. And the benefit of Really thinking about it and really understanding what's below that and what emotions are driving that can give you so much freedom. I always say to my clients, like, with awareness, you get to choose without awareness, you just react, but the choice that we get when we have the information to improve the response. And, you know, I love the improvement is, is really powerful. So, yeah, I think 1 of the things that. Um, I think I've seen myself more in the social subtype earlier and in phases of my life. Um, COVID, I think, changed some of that too, where I wanted to just be at home with my faith people in my little cocoon. Right. Um, and so I think. I think that I see some of the, the social aspects in me too. And, um, that would be just like wanting to teach, wanting to, um, you know, always be doing the right thing, like, like not be a hypocrite, like not be found to you. Be doing the things that I say that I'm again, um, being pretty sensitive to critique that sort of stuff, um, from that social aspect of it too. And so I think it's really important for people to understand that your subtypes, even though you have a focus of one, you have a basic, um, instinct that's going to be highest in your stacking that it's not uncommon to go between those or to even have a different subtype based on. What's going on in specific eras of your life, and, um, they can be really fluid or they can stay static for a long time. Can you do you see that to be true as well? I know it's true for me.

Steph Barron Hall: 27:25

Yeah, I think it probably, I don't know, there are so many different schools of thought on it, um, but I

Dani Cooper: 27:31

What's your experience?

Steph Barron Hall: 27:33

I think that, I'm like trying to think, I haven't exactly mapped it, but I can always see, um, the sexual instincts in, in the sense of like, uh, being a Raneo talk about how, um, There was a lot of, like, a lot of the time people who have the sexual instinct were, like, parentified in a really specific way, um, and I can see that even in my childhood. So I, I really see, like, some of those things. Um, so I'm, I'm not sure, I, I do think, though, that it's not necessarily, like, always a static stacking, like, um, Sometimes for clarity, we, we put these like little layers, you know, but I was just making graphics for my book and I was like, Oh, actually I need to like warp this. Right. So it's like, instead of being like clear, clear layers, it's like, sometimes there's, you know, a lot of the, that top instinct and sometimes the other one comes up to the top and that sort of thing. So I think that that makes sense.

Dani Cooper: 28:36

Yeah. Yeah, I can see that in my life, but I think the thing that lands me back and like, no, you're definitely stuck in the, um, sexual instinct is tension that I'm always feeling between being rigid, being controlled, being appropriate from my oneness. Um, trying to keep that anger where it lives, right? Like the sexual subtype will let that anger out for sure, but my oneness is always telling me that that's not appropriate. That's not okay to be angry. Um, but like this tension between the control and the freedom in me, there's so much in me and the sexual subtype wants more freedom, wants more movement, wants more energy. Juice. And the one is trying to like, mitigate that as often as it can so that you can stay within your bounds. So I think that, you know, there's like this push and pull or this tug of war going on between those two, two sides of that, you know, because it's like you get too free and you're gonna be bad. And so it's, it's a, it's a strange sort of dance that's going on even in the realm of, you know, people sometimes feel uncomfortable talking about the sexual subtype. Um, and prefer to use the term one to one, but I think that there is a component of sexuality and sensuality to it for us, because as humans, we have all of these, these instincts, and they're all very important biologically and emotionally and physically and all of the things for our survival as humans. And so I think that there is. In the same way a self prez person might have, like, this swinging between, um, like, dieting and then binging, that sort of thing, a sexual subtype, I think, also has this sort of sexual swing, too, where it's like, no, I want to be free, I want to feel my body, pleasure is a thing, um, and, like, no, you need to repress that, what's gonna happen if you do let yourself be free. So, um, I've, I've found, and I've done some reading on it about how, like, identity is an important piece of this too, where it's like finding, um, finding security in yourself as a physical person with sexual desires. And that's not bad. Some of us have just really grown up with messaging related to the body and related to sexuality that it really needs to be managed or else. Right. Does that make sense?

Steph Barron Hall: 31:12

Yeah. Yeah. I totally got a lot of those messages too. I think I was kind of like, okay, well, I don't know about that.

Dani Cooper: 31:20

But if you were a one you might be like, Oh my gosh, this is another place I need to put myself in jail, or else something terrible will happen and I will be as bad as I think I am, you know,

Steph Barron Hall: 31:33

Yeah. Exactly. And I think it's kind of interesting as well to, to think about like this concept of purity culture overall and how, um, different people in my life have responded so differently to it. Um, and how even just this morning, my husband and I were having this conversation about how our instincts are at play and the way that we respond to different issues. Um, and yeah, it's just so interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

Dani Cooper: 32:03

Yeah, I think it's really interesting too. I can, I think I look back, um, even like as a young, like I had a wild period before I like became a church person. I grew up in the Catholic church, um, and was pretty relaxed about it. I would say I grew up in the choir loft of a Catholic church because my grandma was always at church. She always sang on Sundays and actually I have really great memories about that, but. Becoming like a born again, Kristen was something where it's like, oh my goodness, like that was after my wild period. And it's like, now I know the answer. Now I know the things not to do. I had this safety zone of rules around me where I could repent of all of that wild behavior. Um, and be good. Now I had this structure around me and and so yeah, that's a it's a crazy place to navigate because, you know, you are a human with a body in in this world. And every person has such a unique unique experience and all the messaging that you're taking in is so confusing. And you're making all of these decisions as a young person and trying to figure out life. I mean. At my age, I'm still like, wow, I'm still figuring out life, but, um, to know yourself and to, I always am amazed at when young people are learning their Enneagram type and getting to take that wisdom with them earlier than I did through the rest of their life. I think it's It's such a gift, because when you know who you are, you can decide which messages you let shape who you are, and you understand the impact that they have on you in a different way than if you're just absorbing. And, um, that's where purity culture can really do a lot of damage for sure.

Steph Barron Hall: 33:53

Yeah. I'm curious because, so I, I heard B, Beatrice just say, um, that ones, even though they're in the body center and with the body types, we talk a lot about being instinctual, you know, but ones are, she calls them anti instinctual, like the, the body knowing is rising, but then their head is like, Nope, we're going to cap that. And like, Yeah. you know, put a lid on it kind of thing. Um, but then you have the very instinctual sexual instinct with that body type. And I'm curious what that is like for you as a one, because you know, you're like, I have to be logical and rational and reasonable, but I have these forces that feel entirely different from that.

Dani Cooper: 34:40

Totally. Yes. It's a, it's like a battleground. I'm not, I'm not exaggerating when it feels like a constant battle to, I mean, you say we want to be rational. We want to be logical. We think of ourselves that way. And that yet we're thinking repressed. When you're, when you're looking at, you know, our stackings of, of centers of intelligence, and that's due to the intercredit getting involved and just skewing everything and, and make casting you in a bad light so that if something happens where you do make a mistake, you already knew you were bad. So it's like protective in a really strange way. As far as the body goes, um, to have a body feels so vulnerable. When you're a body type, and as a person, and as a woman and living in our culture, I mean, so it's like all of these things are stacked up to an impossible degree where life and body types to feel it. Like, life is just so much, and we feel that in our bodies. It's just the too muchness of life is a burden. And so the instincts that we feel. We have to train ourselves as one to accept that and to welcome that knowing because if our body is bad, if we have a culture or a purity culture where it's like, this is this, this is where you can do the most damage. If you do the wrong things with your body, then, um, that's really dangerous. And so anything coming from the body feels, first of all, like, you can't control it. I mean, a lot of ones will be very self controlled in how they move, how they dress, what they're eating, how they're acting, remember, posture, appropriateness is everything. I don't want to present myself in a way physically that is going to cause me shame. There's a real big shame component to it too. So that's a huge disconnect for one where it's like, I have this gut knowing and it's really strong. It really can be very trustworthy too. But getting over the fact that I'm a human with a body and that's not a bad thing, um, is, is a big, it's a big deal. It's a lot of work and it's not something that I've mastered whatsoever, but it's something that I've got my eye on. It's something that I have to pay attention to every day. So yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 37:13

something you said, was really interesting to me. And I, I've been wanting to ask somebody about this.

Dani Cooper: 37:19

Okay.

Steph Barron Hall: 37:19

and you can, this is like totally off the cuff. So you can just be like, no, I'm not prepared to talk about that. That's fine. But, so something with ones is like about being appropriate, right? You said appropriateness is everything. So it's about like being appropriate, being like, correct. like conducting yourself in a manner, which is. To be seen as appropriate, but it's not an image thing as much as like, for example, for a three, there's that chameleon ask thing. And I'm curious how you can from the inside determine, how is this appropriateness kind of focus not about. image.

Dani Cooper: 37:59

That is such an awesome question. I think that it comes from instinct. I think it goes back to that intuition, where it's like, in the way that a three knows who they need to be when they walk into a room, a one has an innate sense of. Or they think they do of how to make themselves be good, right? We're always trying to just be good. We're trying to not, impact things in a negative way or a flawed way. So I think it comes from, the gut. I do. I mean, but it's a control thing. That's a great question because you're right. It's not about image, although I think it's a little about image, knowing the confines, knowing where my body stops and where the world begins and where it starts and where the world begins. I think it's part of that. And I think that it shows that we know we could have an impact. It's kind of like, and this sounds weird. And if this doesn't happen to you, where you're standing on the top of a tall building and you're thinking I could jump, like I have that within me to be able to impact something or be driving and be like, what would happen if I just swerved? I can affect my environment. I think it's what I'm saying. Like we have this knowledge that with our bodies, we can make an impact. On the world around us, and we're afraid of what that impact could do. And I think it, I think it stems from that knowledge and the ability to make sure that we are right. And that's going to, um, you know, like, think of the one, the one. Place in the world is to see what could be improved. The best side of a 1 is like, we can see all the goodness and all the wonderfulness that the world and the people and it could look like what it should look like. And so us being able to do our own little part to impact that or not impact, I think, is what feels like so much pressure to a one.

Steph Barron Hall: 40:08

where do you get the information about what is right? Is that, uh, dependent on the circumstance and the people that you're around, or is it more internal? Mm hmm.

Dani Cooper: 40:21

I think it's internal, but the rules around us scaffold that for us.

Steph Barron Hall: 40:28

hmm. Mm

Dani Cooper: 40:30

They make us feel safe and so we'll find places where we align. And we'll bristle in places where we don't, unless we're in a place that we want to, where we feel like we should mold for this reason or for another, like, for example, you need to change your ways you need to get better, and you need to improve yourself, that will help us adhere to a new set of structures,

Steph Barron Hall: 40:58

hmm.

Dani Cooper: 40:59

know what I mean, but there are times also where we will be Really stubborn with our internal understanding of how things should be. So, it depends, but different tactics work on us, like we talked about purity culture and certain messaging around. Religious institutions, those have a way of breaking through and breaking down people's intuitions or understandings of. Who and what they need to be as well, not even a 1, not even, you know, 1 can be strong against that all the time. So. But I think ones really have a sense that comes from inside of them about what good, how things should be done, how things should be

Steph Barron Hall: 41:43

Yeah. The should. Should. Yeah. Um, I'm curious if when you went through this big change in your faith and your spiritual life, um, if you ever felt lost, like, oh my gosh, I don't have the scaffolding anymore. I don't have the structure anymore. Now what? What is my moral code? What is my ethical perspective?

Dani Cooper: 42:05

Yeah. Um, again, I feel like I had an inner compass and boiled down. I think that spirituality. The purest form teaches that there is a spirit. There's a compass inside each one of us. It has different names, but, um, my journey has ended me and I'll back up in a second to the place where everyone has that we can trust that we don't need to fear for anybody else having that we can just pay attention to ourselves. And that's enough. But back then, definitely. I think I knew I think the inner compass is what Put me into deconstruction because things were not adding up for me anymore, you know, in relation to how we treat other people and how, um, you know, the mandate to love one another was being walked out in practice. But um, I definitely did feel lost at the check marks of like, if I do this and I do this and I do this, I'm okay. Those go away and it's back to freedom, the freedom that, that I'm wanting and getting tugged towards. Freedom is also very scary because it feels like there's also a million ways to go wrong unless you're, um, unless you're not afraid of that. And obviously the one I'm afraid of going wrong or going astray, plus all of the messaging that I've had about how easy it was for your foot to slip. Or for you to stumble or slide down the slippery slope. So it was very disorienting at first, um, and even more so for my husband, because I began the journey first. And that was, that was wild for him because he, I mean, the first time I was like, you know, I'm just not really sure that, that a physical actual place like hell exists. And I remember exactly where we were like we're driving on the highway and he turned to me and you would have thought that I like he didn't even recognize me like I was like, Wow, I just rocked his world telling him that just because I had questions. And so as a sick, you know, he was like, No, I need to structure where you going without me and we were on this journey together now and he has more questions than I ever did now right as a sick. But it was a very right.

Steph Barron Hall: 44:32

can't stop

Dani Cooper: 44:33

Oh, my God. I love it. I remember asking him. I'm like reading in the beginning, like it says six is asked a lot of questions. He goes, Do I know? And I was like, Oh, my goodness, but I like that Pringles fan thing. So yeah, I mean, it was very disconcerting. But, um, yeah, I think most people have that experience because you're losing a lot. It's very scary to, to chart a course that you've not, that you're not following a lot of people on, you know, we. Um, you lose your community a lot of times. People, you know, look at you like you've grown horns, you know, or like you're, you've been dabbling in something and, you know, you're on the wrong path or whatever. So that can be very, very scary. I don't, I don't care who you are. So. I'm really grateful that more and more that people are finding community and, um, you know, refinding faith to like the end of deconstruction doesn't always look like you take everything you believed in and chuck it in the garbage can. It can for people. And like I said, I, I, I, I think that the divine and God really trust our own journey, right? Otherwise we wouldn't have individual journeys and we wouldn't have individual souls and experiences. And I think that we do each other. Um, a service and really love each other by trusting one another with their own, our own journeys as well. So, yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 46:05

Have you read, um, The Dance of the Dissident Daughter by Sue Monk Kidd?

Dani Cooper: 46:09

No, but I'm reading the book of longings right now.

Steph Barron Hall: 46:12

Okay.

Dani Cooper: 46:13

I'm ready to read that one next. Okay, cool.

Steph Barron Hall: 46:16

Yeah, it's just about her process. I, I'm like 60 percent through. I've been like reading it little by little because it's, there's just a lot to think about for me. But it's about her process of, of leaving her, like she was a good, proper Southern lady, like a church lady, and then like leaving that process. And, um, I just hear so much similarity. She feels very Nine ish to me in her story, but I don't really know. Much about her. So I don't know,

Dani Cooper: 46:45

If she listens to this, she should let us know because we would love to know that.

Steph Barron Hall: 46:49

my kid, we would love to talk with you.

Dani Cooper: 46:53

That'd be so awesome.

Steph Barron Hall: 46:54

Um, yeah. Okay. So that's really helpful. I think to think about too, because, um, with what you're talking about with your husband and walking through that, like a one and a six, right? You're just pulling the rug out from under you both. Um, and how destabilizing that can be, but then you have to learn to swim and you have to learn how to, it's weird, like mixed metaphor. I'm like throwing out here, but like, you have to, yeah. Learn how to figure that out together and individually, but

Dani Cooper: 47:22

Right. Yeah. I like how you said that, like, figuring it out together is definitely a piece of it. I was thinking more of my own individual journey. But when you're in a partnership, and one person, you know, takes a little detour, it's like, I mean, I, my husband Shane definitely said, I didn't know, I remember you playing an episode of the Bible for normal people for me. And I was like, Yeah. What on earth? This is like heresy, right? And so there's this takeoff period where, again, we'll keep talking about the value of being able to communicate with your partner. That's like the biggest thing. You can, if you can talk about it, then you can work through it, or at least gain understanding of the other person's side. Man, we need some more of that in the world right now to just be able to have opposing viewpoints that sit at the same table and, and just share your feelings and, and honor each other's place where they are because we're all at different places. So, it's important to be able to navigate that for sure.

Steph Barron Hall: 48:28

Yeah, for sure. Um, well, I know that you've been working with clients Through the Enneagram for a few years now And I'm curious if there are things that you know now or that you recognize now about this journey about self discovery about the Enneagram about Yourself that you didn't know before you started working with people in this capacity

Dani Cooper: 48:49

Yeah, man. I've learned so much. Um, I remember before I began or like having my first few coaching clients and thinking I just I had to be perfect to show up and to be of use to the people that I was going to have the honor of sitting across from. Um, and so, uh, I don't believe that anymore, and I'm starting to embrace, like, it's, it's the imperfections in our humanity that people actually relate to and connect with best, and my goal whenever I'm with, um, another person in a coaching capacity or wherever is just that. The person that I'm with feels like I'm seeing them and hearing them and holding space for their story. So that was one thing I had to learn is that I didn't have to be perfect or just some idea of there wasn't a should involved, right? If I could hold space and listen well and really care for that person, that that, um, would be enough and that would be good. So and I that I didn't have to fix anything. I think when I first started coaching, I thought I needed to have all these answers and then I needed to have all these solutions ready for someone that was having an issue. And, um, coaching is much more about hearing and seeing that person and drawing the wisdom out from them that's already there. I truly believe any person that comes to see me. Really kind of knows what their next steps are and knows these things about themselves. It's just it takes a coach to ask the right questions so that they can arrive at that next step or that wisdom for themselves because that's when it actually makes an impact on us is when we can draw it out from the deep waters of our own souls. So definitely learned that. And, um, I coach a lot of ones. I really like coaching ones. I don't know if you have that experience with threes, but it's really powerful to relate to someone on on a level of type where it's like, Oh, sister, I know that pain. I know that struggle. And here's what we need to hear. You know, you're almost coaching yourself as you're

Steph Barron Hall: 50:57

hmm.

Dani Cooper: 50:58

as you're talking to the other person. So yeah. I love one on one for sure. And also I love helping couples communicate better too. So

Steph Barron Hall: 51:07

Yeah.

Dani Cooper: 51:08

really, really an honor to get to do that.

Steph Barron Hall: 51:11

Yeah, absolutely um I'm curious if you have any practical advice for people who are just beginning, especially if they're ones, but even if you have something for all types.

Dani Cooper: 51:22

Do you mean beginning Enneagram work or? Yeah. Hmm. When we find type, um, I think that some of us, you know, there's a couple different reactions to it where it's like some of us want to push it aside and like not want to get tagged or pinned down by a type. And then there are those of us who are like, Oh my gosh, that's so me. And then we, we like live in through the aspects of type. And I view finding your type as, um, Yeah. Finding the place where you're the most stuck and so like you're looking at your life through a knothole in a fence, you're just getting this really limited view of all that your life could be because of this story that you crafted as you know, a little kid about how to navigate the world with the most safety and the most, um, you know, amount of belonging that you could muster up by your actions. And so we have long outgrown the need for that. And we're thankful to personality protecting us and helping us get to where we are. But just like we've grown out of those clothing, we've grown out of our types too. And so to be able to start peeling back the layers. And, uh, will only lead you to a more full and free expression of, of who you actually are. You're not your type, but, um, finding out about your type will help you see how you've been really living into type and that you're just so much more. So that's my, that's my first advice is learn all you can apply all, all that you can and, and find how that matches up and then ask yourself, gosh, do I want to keep doing this? Is there a different way? How could I expand beyond this? And I think that's a great way to start.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:17

Yeah. That's fantastic advice. Yeah. I love it. Um, okay. Before we get to our very last two questions, where can people find you? What do you want to share with them? Do you want to share your book? What do you want to tell them?

Dani Cooper: 53:29

Hmm. Sure. Yeah. So you can find me on Instagram mainly. Um, and that's at deepwatersenneagram. And also my website is deepwatersenneagram. com. And, um, so that's where I love to chat with people. Um, I love to DM and I love answering comments, stuff like that. Um, I did write a book. I think it came out in 20, it came out 2022. I believe it's called the Enneagram for Christian couples. I would have rewritten that title to the Enneagram for couples of all types, but there were certain things that the publisher wanted on my book cover. So, but I would say that's not a lot of good practical advice for partners of any kind. Um, I even think it's great for information about how to get along with like a parent child relationship, that sort of thing. So, um, yeah, so that's my book. Um, I do personal coaching, couples coaching, I do team training, and, um, I love chatting on podcasts with friends like you.

Steph Barron Hall: 54:34

Great. Yeah. I'd love to have you here. That's awesome. I will link everything in the show notes, of course. Um, so finally tell me about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year.

Dani Cooper: 54:45

Okay. So. This is going to really relate, so I'm reading the Wisdom of Your Body by Hilary Leanne McBride, and I read nonfiction books like reference books, so I'll read a little here and a little there. I'm a fiction girl for sure. I will finish a fiction book cover to cover, but my nonfiction books, I have to take in chunks and like digest them and move it on. So that's when I keep coming back to, um, as I. Become more embodied, more comfortable with having a body of, um, loving my body of understanding pain, more of understanding how my emotions that I didn't want to feel for so long, including the anger that a one harbors, but all the rest of them to can really lodge in the body and how to move that through. So that's been really helpful for me. So that I can embrace having a body and being a human and stop wishing I was a robot, because honestly, that wouldn't be as fun as it sounds like it would be.

Steph Barron Hall: 55:47

Right.

Dani Cooper: 55:48

It

Steph Barron Hall: 55:49

Yeah, it'd be a little bland.

Dani Cooper: 55:51

can be bland. Yeah. So anyway, that's the journey. And that book has been really helpful to reconnect my relationship to my relationship with my body.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:02

Beautiful. I love it. Um, okay. What is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Dani Cooper: 56:08

Okay. And I have to hear this like every day, my husband's really great at reminding me. Um, when my inner critic is really loud and my story is like, Oh, you know, you and my type is really strong and my thought, he constantly will say to me, you're doing better than you think you are. And that's really helpful for me. And I have to think about every day. So

Steph Barron Hall: 56:33

for that advice, Shane. Perfect advice.

Dani Cooper: 56:35

know, right? I know. It's so good. He's got so much wisdom.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:39

Yeah, I love it. Okay. Well, thank you so much for joining me today for this podcast. And I really appreciate you sharing everything. And I think we just need a deeper dive on all of these deconstruction things we've been chatting about, uh, peripherally. But, um, thanks so much for joining me.

Dani Cooper: 56:57

Yeah, you're welcome. Great to be here. Thanks.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:01

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify