What to Do When Life Doesn’t Feel Authentic as an Enneagram 3 with Tyler Zach

Tyler Zach: 1:30

I think a lot of it is image based. Like, we we wanna look good, so we wanna achieve more, so we can look good. But some of it, I I don't think it's image based. I think it's just we have this fear that somehow we're for some reason, we're gonna drown. And if we don't get a few more emails done at 10 o'clock before we go to bed and and get ahead, then then we're gonna drown, or we're gonna we're gonna get so far behind that we're gonna suffer catastrophic depletion, uh, or it's just weird. That that but that's the internal word of world of a 3 is, I just have to or else.

2:16

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of any Graham in real life, a podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge. In our daily lives. I'm your host Steph Barron hall. And on today's episode, I'm back again, talking with a fellow Enneagram three. I will introduce him a little bit more formally in a moment, but. Tyler Zuck has worked in ministry as a pastor and in other capacities for almost two decades. And last year he left that life behind to pursue his Enneagram business and works full time as an Enneagram coach and teacher. And along with leaving his pastoral role. Uh, Tyler began to rethink many of the concepts he believed for much of his life in the past few years, some of which we discussed today. So Tyler and I connected actually, because we were discussing his upcoming, any of summit, which you just probably heard an ad for. And you can sign up for it in a link in the show notes, because I'm a main speaker and I'm pretty excited about sharing it with you. It's free by the way. So there is a bio option, but you don't have to do that. So you can just go in for free. Um, anyway. So we started talking, um, after he asked me to be a speaker for the summit, we started talking about faith and some of our similarities in our stories and, um, our past and things like that. And I've alluded to this previously, but just to give you a little bit more context on the conversation today. Um, I was raised in the evangelical Christian Church and actually have quite a bit of religious trauma after moving away from that experience about five years ago. Um, to be clear, it wasn't necessarily growing up. That was so challenging for me, but some of the experiences that I had when I was actually in adult, so in the time since leaving. Um, This particular group that I was most recently in, I've just become really interested in understanding the nature of high control groups and our cultural relationship with certainty. And how this specific type of. Extreme religiosity that I have experienced in that Tyler's doc talks about today. Um, prohibit some of the very important identity work that is fundamental to our development as human beings. So Tyler and I talked about these concepts today, uh, along with what it means to be in Enneagram three. What it's like to be in a relationship with a six, what happens when your values shift and how to find yourself again, as you truly are when you are an adult? So I want to mention at the outset, because obviously we're going to be talking a bit about religion today. I know in love many people who are Christians and who are good and loving and gracious and kind people. So this is not an indictment on Christianity specifically, but a commentary on the sort of fundamentalist, religion that is oppressive. And, Values. Quote, unquote righteousness over humanity. And it's something that I have experienced and witnessed as harmful. And I'm very much not a fan of that. And so I am not going to pretend to be neutral about this. Um, it's something that is really difficult for me. Um, again, I'm talking about this extreme or fundamentalist version of it. Not. Christians as a whole, who, um, I have many friends who are Christians and they're absolutely lovely and wonderful people. So if you are a Christian or have gotten questions about the use of the Instagram from other Christians around you. Tyler's doc created a course about the origins of the Enneagram. And I'm going to link that in the show notes, because it sounds like a great resource. If that's something you have questions about, and I know I've received a lot of those questions on Instagram and I'm really not equipped to answer them because once I got. You know, really thoroughly deeply into the Enneagram the religious aspect, wasn't a part of my life. So it wasn't a question that I, um, Really needed to tackle because it wasn't a value for me. So, if that's important for you, that link is there for you in the show notes. So here's a little bit more about Tyler by way of his official bio. So Tyler. Zach is a three wing four and an author and a certified Enneagram coach with 18 years of experience, coaching students, adults, couples, and business teams. He has grown a vibrant community of over 47,008 gram enthusiasts. One of whom is my mom, um, on his Instagram account at gospel for Enneagram. He is in the process of writing a faith-based 40 day devotional for every Enneagram type, which you can grab on amazon.com and. Again, I will link those. It sounds like it's been quite the project and, um, he is almost done with all nine of them. So to test drive your types book, download a free five day devotional on his website at. Tyler's doc, which is Z a C h.com/free. Again, as you know, you're tired of me saying it by now in this intro, everything is linked in the show notes and. Sign up for the EMEA summit. It's going to be really fun. We're talking all about love and relationships and it'll be free for you to come and listen to me. Ashton, you know, Enneagram, Ashton, I'm sure. Um, Suzanne's to Beale Sarah Jane Case, so many awesome, amazing people. Some of whom you've heard on the podcast, like crystal harden and Christie roles. Um, all of us are going to be talking about the Instagram love relationships, all that good stuff. Um, so I really hope you will come and join us. And without further ado, here's my conversation with Tyler sock.

Steph Barron Hall: 7:21

Well, Tyler, welcome to the podcast.

Tyler Zach: 7:23

Hey. It's great to be here, Steph. Uh, thanks for having me on. It's an honor to to be with you.

Steph Barron Hall: 7:29

Of course. Yeah. I I think when we first started chatting about the Enneagram summit, which we'll talk about, um, in a moment, I mentioned to you that my mom has sent your post to me on Instagram, which I think is hilarious. And I love that because she's getting into the Enneagram.

Tyler Zach: 7:46

That's so great. I mean, there's no better compliment than that. Right? For another fellow 3 that your mom is sending you my post,

Steph Barron Hall: 7:52

Yeah. Yeah. So great. So, um, well, to begin, I just love to start a little bit with your background, um, and kind of how you got to this place in your career. So tell me a little bit about yourself. Um, where did you come

Tyler Zach: 8:09

Yeah. That's that's a that's a big question. Uh, I my background, just for those listening, is I've been 18 years in ministry. So 8 9 years is doing campus ministry, working, coaching with college students, and then the last 9 years, uh, pastoring. But then as I've told you, I I left full time ministry a year ago, and I've been doing lots of just exploring my own spiritual views. And as a 3, figuring out what I'm doing and what I believe, and we can talk a little bit more more about that later. But it's sort of the journey with the Enneagram started about, I don't know, 8 years ago or so, and a a friend told me that his church was using the Enneagram. So I thought that was interesting because it kinda looked like a pentagram. I was like, should Christians use this? And, uh, spoiler alert, I end up doing a 3 hour, uh, ecourse on should Christians use the Enneagram, uh, for the faith based listeners who have get gotten a lot of heat from family members or churches. Uh, so I spent a lot of time on that question. Uh, but okay.

Steph Barron Hall: 9:14

that?

Tyler Zach: 9:15

What was

Steph Barron Hall: 9:16

Where did you find that ecourse for people who

Tyler Zach: 9:20

I created 1. I spent I yeah. Yeah. I'm a 3, Stephanie. Come on.

Steph Barron Hall: 9:25

No. No. I know.

Tyler Zach: 9:27

I was like, uh, we need some we need to do a deep dive of the history and figure this out and nip this in the bud. So I spent 6 months researching and putting together an ecourse, uh, that just basically took the Enneagram apart like a car. Uh, here's all the parts, and it's not harmful. We could put the put the pieces back together, and we can use it, and we can move on. Uh, we don't get it get caught up in all of the the the mystery and the the the scare tactics that some people use. So, uh, uh, but when I first saw it, I was like, oh, that kinda looks like a pentagram. Uh, but this this church had a really high bar for doctrine, And just just as a side note, I'm still healing from the spiritual pride that I got within this church when I was a member of it. But I heard that they were using it with their members, and I thought, oh, this is this is pretty interesting. So let me let me let me explore it. And so I I read Marilyn Bansal's book, self deluxe, self define, and loved it. And then I read The Road Back to You, and then I read The Wisdom of the Enneagram. And, uh, I just couldn't put the books down. I just kept absorbing it. Like, I knew I knew it was worth pursuing because it had an immediate and instant impact, uh, on my life. I mean, it's it doesn't it doesn't take much for you, Steph, and I to know that we're workaholics. That I mean, that is pretty much clear as you look at our story. But the Enneagram, like, put up a mirror and showed me my image problem, my other insecurities. The Enneagram said, here's a bundle of probabilities about you as a type 3 that may not all be true, but there's a high probability, uh, that you're gonna struggle with image, shame, expressing your feelings, you know, etcetera. So I I was, like, completely floored, uh, by by what I was learning in these books and couldn't stop. That's kinda how I got into the Enneagram.

Steph Barron Hall: 11:33

Wow. So what was it like for you to recognize that you were 3? Was that immediate, or were you like, I don't

Tyler Zach: 11:42

That's a great question. When I took the test for the first time, I think it was the Riso and Hudson test, it I tied, uh, had a perfect tie between a type 3 and a type 5. And I think part of that is because of the maybe the church background I had been a part of is very heady, and very theological. And I I kind of I wanted to identify with being the astute, you know, theologian who's smart, who can write theological papers. And I just sort of saw myself in a very 5 ish way, and I think that's why I did it. But then when I started going through the mistyping guides and reading between the differences between fives and threes, the all of the heart stuff, the shame stuff popped out of me at the 3, the the image problems. It it it was I don't wanna say disgusting. That's not the right word. It was, uh, repulsive a little bit. Reading the these descriptions of type 3, and that's how I knew I was a type 3.

Steph Barron Hall: 12:44

Yeah. Yeah. I I think it can be really exposing. Um, I think there are some types, like sixes, for example, or eights where and even sometimes fours, where they're like, oh, I'm not broken. You know, I there's a reason for all of this. And I think for threes, it's normally like, oh, no. I don't like this, which is exactly my experience as well. What what about your subtype? How was that to discover?

Tyler Zach: 13:15

That that came along later, and that was really, really helpful. I think, you know, Beatrice and Eranio have done a an amazing job with subtypes, and and I've learned the most about subtypes from them. And it was uh, because I didn't really resonate with some of the the 3 characteristics that I was reading.

Steph Barron Hall: 13:34

Mhmm.

Tyler Zach: 13:35

And when I found out that I was a self preservation 3, then I was like, oh, that that makes a lot of sense because you self pres threes can be very 1 ish because we really wanna be good. Uh, Yeah. Really wanna be good, wanna be virtuous, and and don't want to look like we're trying to be vain. So I say self press threes are more fishing for compliments, whereas social threes might be outwardly boastful. But I want the same external validation as a social 3. I just do it in sneakier or subtle ways.

Steph Barron Hall: 14:12

Yeah.

Tyler Zach: 14:12

You know? So it it looks like me sending an email, uh, to you staff of saying, hey. Look at this new thing I'm working on. Or and knowing that you're gonna write back saying, wow, Tyler. Like, that is amazing.

Steph Barron Hall: 14:26

Mhmm.

Tyler Zach: 14:26

almost like you're setting people up to compliment you. So it's a lot it's a lot sneakier, but we're all the vanity is still at the at the core of of all 3 subtypes.

Steph Barron Hall: 14:36

Yeah. Yeah. And it's actually really interesting because most of the time when I talk with people about the Enneagram who are threes, they're almost always, uh, self pressed. And I think there are a lot of different reasons for that. I think 1 of the big ones is what you touched on earlier, though, of that feeling of, like, okay. Once I hit this next milestone, whether that's financial or in my work or whatever, then I'll be happy. And they keep hitting milestones, and they either burn themselves out and end up in the hospital, or they realize, okay. This is kind of empty. Like, where do I go from here? Um, and 3 self press threes in particular are really good at, you know, hitting those milestones and, like, stacking up all the money that they want. And then they're like, oh, wait. The money didn't make me happy. Now what? And then they go on this spiritual journey.

Tyler Zach: 15:30

It's interesting. I never resonated with the the wealth or the money thing, and I think partly it's because I was in ministry. You know, the the saying is if you if you the Baptist say, if you keep them poor, you'll keep them humble. Uh, and so I just I was like, I have to drive a bad car. Because if I drive a good car, then people will think I'm not, you know, sacrificial or a good pastor. And so I kinda was okay with living not thinking about money that much for a couple decades. And I started out my career raising money, uh, for my to to meet to do, you know, support raising and all that. And so now I find myself thinking a lot more about money that I'm not in ministry, and that that's sort of coming out of me. But I don't think in unhealthy ways. I think just in terms of security and family, I'm just thinking about a lot more than I used to. And so I can see that that side of me. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 16:25

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that makes sense. What was it like for you to go out on your own? This is just like a a thing that's coming up as well, but I'm thinking about many of the self press threes that I talk with. They have these big dreams or these big goals. They wanna start a business, but they're like, oh, I could never leave this cushy job. I mean, not that being in ministry is cushy. I actually think it's quite a a taxing job. There's a lot of burnout, very poor boundaries, so, you know, all that stuff. But, um, at least there's, like, a stable paycheck, hopefully.

Tyler Zach: 17:00

Yeah. The I've had a hard time transitioning from 1 role or 1 season to the next because of, loyalty. I feel and that's probably the some health there of moving to 6, thinking, like, I don't wanna be disloyal to the people that I'm with right now. And so it was really hard for me to leave k State when I when I got asked to be a pastor to to leave the students behind at k State. It was really hard for me this past year to walk away from full time ministry in our church, uh, to be an entrepreneur. the reason was, uh, I had to be loyal to my wife over the church, and I know like, that's 1 of the the questions that you you ask people, uh, is, you know, what what, uh, what piece of advice, you know, has really stuck with you. And I would say it's my friend told me, like, Lindsay is always gonna be with you in every season of life, and the church won't. Uh, so, yeah, so if if I lay my family on the altar of ministry or for this church or for this people, um, it might look good as a pastor, uh, but my wife is gonna be that with me 10 years from now and 20 years from now and 30 years from now. And my my kids are gonna be with me, and are they gonna see that I put them on the altar of ministry? So I actually had to figure out, like, k. Who am I who am I ultimately need to be loyal to first? And that's my my wife and my kids. And we have a son on the spectrum, and it's just been really, really, really hard, uh, uh, this past decade. And Lindsay has been just kind of shriveled up because on the weekends, I'm thinking about Sundays. I have to do sermon prep. Uh, she's taking both of our boys to church, which I think 1 you know, I don't know for sure what types they are. Uh, but if I were to take a guess at this point, it would be a counterphobic 6 and an 8. Uh, so basically, 2 eights.

Steph Barron Hall: 19:08

Super chill. Super chill all the time.

Tyler Zach: 19:11

And so there's constant fighting on the way to church. You know, she's always pick up the slack when I have to go to events because and it's just really, really difficult. So I so I made that decision to leave ministry for our family, to have healthier family rhythms, to partner with Lindsay in homeschooling our son who's been kicked out of 3 schools, and, you know, we have to we have to, um, care from here and then in the home. And so made that transition this past year, and it's been phenomenal, uh, for our family. And, uh, phenomenally for me, spiritually, which we can talk a little bit more about later too about just what it's like to not be in a role, uh, as a as a type 3 pastor and figure out what I believe and, uh, where I'm going from here, uh, now that I'm not trying to fulfill a role perfectly, if that makes sense.

Steph Barron Hall: 20:04

Yeah. And I'm curious about that because, um, I think my listeners probably know this, but I used to be in a, um, evangelical religion as well and, like, deconstructed over the last several years. And and really, like, there's a whole lot of story to that. But not only being a 3, but also having that, um, kind of structure and upbringing, it's been an interesting process for me to really do a lot of identity work. Like, who am I? Right? If I am not these roles that I'm performing, if I am not doing whatever they're telling me to do, like, I I almost feel like I think, you know, my experience is a little bit different because I'm a different subtype, but, um, feeling like you're just being really malleable and fitting into whatever slots are are needed, but none of it is actually what you want for your life. So what is it like for you to form your own identity now as an adult? Like, a legit adult. Like, you've got kids who are, you know, high school, I think,

Tyler Zach: 21:10

Oh, that's it's a great question. And I'm really thankful to be able to kinda talk about this with you because it it feels like now that I'm 40, I'd hit 40. I I'm sort of going through a type 3 midlife crisis of seeing how chameleon like I've been much of my life. In workshops that I do, I always talk about Andre Agassi. In in his bio, he talks about how he hated tennis his whole life. Uh, but as a as a 3, wanted the extra eternal validation of his father who loved him when he was playing tennis, and also the applause of the the crowds weren't that bad either. Uh, and we can as type type threes, we can make that cheap transaction of getting applause for doing whatever people want. But the problem is it's most of it's unconscious. We we really think that that's what we want. Like, Andre Agassi probably thought, this is what I really want. I wanna play tennis. But then later found out, no. Actually, I hate tennis. And so I'm having some of these realizations now midlife of seeing how chameleon like I've been. I mean, every role that I've taken on, I've gone a hundred and 10 percent. So when I was in college and a fraternity president, you know, I wore the T shirts. I got CIGAP on my license plate. You know? I I put on the CIGAP mask and went all out. And in the church world, because sort of the the reformed world was sort of where I was brought up I mean, I was Catholic way back in the day. Uh, my parents left the Catholic church. We got into a nondenominational church, and then I went as part of a, like, a Acts 29 church plant and started there. And I was really brought up in that in my twenties. So as a 20 year old who is very moldable, who's a especially being a type 3, who's, uh, wants to rise and be the poster child and do everything right and think right and have the right theology. Like, I just absorbed all of that. And I used to brag to people, like, I am a Calvinist. And I I even

Steph Barron Hall: 23:21

Making Wayne Gurdon proud over here.

Tyler Zach: 23:24

oh, gosh. Well, uh, I completely disagree with with Wingroof now. But, yes, I used to I read Wayne Grunem's systematic theology twice. Uh, once for myself and once for my theology classes. But, I mean, oh my gosh. We could double click on that and his view of Trump and all that. I mean, wow. There's a lot to talk about there. But I as a 3, we can be very persuasive, a very persuasive type. And I went all out and wrote, like, a 30 page paper on gen a position paper on gender roles about how women shouldn't preach in the church, women should lead in the church, and I was all very nice about it. Uh, I didn't realize kinda how chauvinistic I was till later, but I I wrote all these things and put a lot of energy around that because that was what was valued in my community. And I I just I I I adopted it and and breathed it. And now, you know, 10 years later, uh, it's it's kinda funny because I'm no longer a Calvinist, and I just help my church to get women to preach for the first time and for women to get into senior leadership for the first time. So people might look at that and be like, I had actually, I had a type 6, and our church would be like, what in the world are you doing? And I said, well, you are you're tie I mean, you're 4 women preaching. Right? And she's like, yes. But, uh, she didn't say this as as a type 6, like, this is very inconsistent. This this is very unpredictable. Why are you changing? Why are you changing your mind? Well, it's because I just got so caught up in these roles and really thought, man, this is what I believe. And and a lot of it was like a just a computer program running running in the background of I could just I could see what people in that camp needed me to believe and wanted me to be, and I just was like a Camille, and I shape shifted into that role. And now that I'm not in that role, I feel a tremendous amount of freedom to deconstruct, to ask hard questions, to figure out, like, what I believe, uh, where where do I wanna go from here, uh, even if even if it's even if I have to have the disapproval of my best friends that I password with in a in a certain season of life, even if I have to look bad, uh, to certain people, like, it's I'm old enough now. I'm like, I just I don't wanna live life for external validation. I don't wanna live life for people's approval. I don't wanna do that anymore. I'm just trying to trying to figure that all out

Steph Barron Hall: 26:04

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much for sharing that because I know that that is difficult, and I think even for me sometimes you know, I wasn't even a pastor or you know, of course, I'm not allowed, but, um, just just kidding. Um, but I, um, I think it can be so difficult to be really open and forthright about, like, actually, my values have changed, and this is what I think is true and right now. Um, because I think sometimes, you know, in our society, we so often are like we we wanna say that people can change, but we really believe that they can't. Um, and that, you know, if you do something 1 time, then you're always gonna kind of have that perspective. Um, and so what was it like for you? Like, your your values are shifting. Where did that strength come from to, like, be more authentic to your truer self?

Tyler Zach: 27:06

I think the that's a great question. I mean, I if I were to write a book someday, I would probably start the book. I mean, well, I've written books, but if a book that I guess I wanna write someday is to start off by saying I could be wrong. And I think that part of that in me, that self press threeness of wanting to be good. And even back when I was writing this 30 page gender roles paper, like, 10 years ago, I told people I could be wrong. I I could be wrong. If if if God shows me a different way, then I'll I'll be open to that. And so I've always wanted to be I don't know. It's that that 1 that oneness part of me that that wants to be good. And and then also, I think the my 4 wing, that's been a really good tool because it's like, I have to be authentic. Uh, I have to, um, admit when I'm wrong. I have to tell the truth. I can't I can't wear a mask forever. Like, just drawing upon the some of those 4 tools has been really helpful. But, also, you just wanting to serve people well, wanting to help people to learn from my mistakes other than 40. I I don't want their threes in their twenties to make the same mistakes. So, I mean, I have a long list of of things of moments that I've had over the last, you know, decade of learning Enneagram. And I I'm my 4 wings like, share them all because be authentic because if somebody else can can learn from your mistakes and your failures as a 3, then then it'll be worth it.

Steph Barron Hall: 28:53

Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, I feel that way too. And sometimes I'm like, oh, I wish I'd known this when I was younger. And then I'm like, well, I I wouldn't have listened. Let's be honest. I needed to make those mistakes myself. Um, but I do think that in a sense, especially that type of, you know, like this reformed, like Acts 29 type of, um, vein of Christianity, because you know, there are so many different veins of Christianity, and not all of them are are that way. But in that 1 in particular, we really make an idol of certainty, And so you have to be certain. Like, you can say I could be wrong, but, really, like, you're supposed to be very certain. Um, and I think that can be hard.

Tyler Zach: 29:44

Yeah. That's why. I mean, Pete Enns has a really good book out called The Sin of Certainty, and it's all about that. And I talk about that in my type 1 book, uh, but because, you know, ones can be very certain of their convictions and opinions. Eights and and sixes can get this way too, but I think ones the 1 book is where I talk about angry virtue. And it's like, if you if you feel like you you're a virtue a virtuous person, so even if you're not, uh, uh, don't claim any sort of faith, you're just type 1, and you have a lot of virtue and a lot of convictions. Or if you're say you are a Christian, uh, or in some faith and you believe that god is on your side, how much damage can be done when you think that that what you're doing allows you to hurt people, to put people in their place, uh, to berate people, like and that's that's 1 of the reasons why religion has been so damaging. But, you know, you don't have to be in a religion to to damage people by because the the whole principle is if you think you are right, then there's then there's no length at which you won't go to to to prove it or put people in their place. And that's

Steph Barron Hall: 31:02

Mhmm.

Tyler Zach: 31:04

so, yeah, humility is is needed

Steph Barron Hall: 31:07

Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. What have you done in the last year in particular that has helped you excavate some of your, like, true authentic self, your your true identity?

Tyler Zach: 31:24

I think just the the Enneagram has been extremely, extremely helpful just continuing to diagnose my heart and then just working on all those things 1 step at a time. Um, you know, I think my insecurity and need for external validation is, you know, working working on that. So trying to do the opposite of that, of trying to say things that will get me into trouble or, uh, make me look bad and realizing that that if as long as I'm being authentic to myself, then that's that's all I need to to to do. Uh, I've been working on not trying to carry the Instagram filter around with me everywhere I go. It's it's it's crazy that we before we say anything, even, like, right now on this podcast episode, it's like there there's not just words coming out, but it's it's coming out through through a filter in real time of, like, how will this be perceived? Uh, will people like what I have to say? And trying not to use that that filter at all times. I even tell people for threes, we try to be cool in conflict. Like, we even we even know how we're being perceived in the in the heated situation where people are getting upset and the the reactive types, you know, fours, sixes, and eights are, you know, like, this is a problem, and I'm getting emotional, and I have a right to be emotional. And and we're sitting there thinking, okay. I gotta be cool. I gotta be calm. It's like even in those heated moments, we still have the Instagram filter. So I'm trying to figure out how to shut that thing off if if that makes if that makes sense.

Steph Barron Hall: 33:12

Yeah. It's really challenging because it's not only saying what's coming to mind, but it's also, like, how is the person that's hearing this or reading this going to experience it? And in some ways, that can be a super power. Like, I really think that's why when I started my Instagram so many years ago, why it grew so quickly because I was able to think, what will p what questions will people have about this? What will people perceive about themselves when they read this? Like, all of those things. So I was kind of imagining all of that, and so it made it where it really connected with people. And, also, the bad thing about that is when you use that in all of your relationships and especially when we think about, like, the, um, conflict triads, um, and threes are I don't think that, for me, it's necessarily, like, a conscious thought of, like, let me stay cool, you know, in this competency triad. But I was talking with a 5 friend recently about this, and, um, he's like, I I mean, I don't get why it's like he didn't say this, but he was kinda like, uh, like, why is it bad? And I was like, because it can be manipulative. Like, you don't realize it, but you are just like, puzzling through the conflict and being like, alright, if they say this, I'll say this, and then we'll be done. That is not healthy. That does not make good relationships. How have you navigated that, being married to somebody who is in a different conflict triad?

Tyler Zach: 34:39

wait. Oh gosh. Uh, so the things that I wanted to to bring up at some point was just our road of dealing with infertility, uh, early on in marriage because it really sort of draws out the the weaknesses of both types in relationship, uh, to 1 another. Uh, so for me, I would say I bring a lot of optimism, hope, reassurance, uh, to Lindsay, which she really appreciates. Uh, she takes care of a lot of the practical needs around the home. Uh, she's very dutiful. She's loyal. She's sincere. She keeps me down to earth. She's not impressed with me and all the things that I'm doing. Uh, you know, she's gonna be with me to the end. No doubt. No no doubt about that. But when trouble came and we we were told that we're probably not gonna ever have a chance to have kids, both of my boys are adopted and biracial, and that's and then 1 is on the spectrum, so a lot lot to talk about there. But, um, she, as a 6, was like, this is a problem. What if we never are able to have kids? What if you know, going through the the 6 kind of motions, and I chose to use spiritual bypassing as my strategy. Uh, being a good Christian 3, I'm like, just have hope. You know? That's why I wore this T shirt today. It says hope changes everything. I wore it specifically, uh, for this conversation because I'm like, threes love hope. We love purpose. We love vision. Uh, we're positive. And that's what I used on Lindsey as a as a strategy to not deal with emotions, to shove our situation under the rug. And I kept saying, uh, just believe that God's gonna gonna come through for us. Why why wouldn't he come through for us? You'll just have hope. We don't need to cry. Why waste our tears? Why waste our time worrying when it's probably gonna happen anyways? And so just go

Steph Barron Hall: 36:55

I mean, I threes never waste their tears. It's like, let's not you know, let's just not waste our tears. I'm like, what are we saving them for? You

Tyler Zach: 37:04

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've seen I've seen 3 pastors cry. Some of them can cry quite a bit, but it's I don't think it's a lot of it's very authentic, um, from some of the displays of emotion I've seen. Um, so but, anyways, go back to me. Uh, I I just saw Lindsay in this season as a as a just a pessimist.

Steph Barron Hall: 37:28

Mhmm.

Tyler Zach: 37:28

And it wouldn't be until a lot of work and a lot of time, you know, going by that I would actually relabel her not as a pessimist, but as a protector. seeing that she is a 6 is not pessimistic, but that she's a protector. She's wanting to protect me. She's wanting to protect our family. And so going through the Enneagram has really helped me to see the positive aspects of a 6 that I I didn't see before. I just thought sixes lacked faith, and then I had the gift of faith. Like, they just need to believe. Like, I believe, and then everything would be okay. Uh, but that didn't work because now, you know, we're sitting here, uh, you know, 15 years later, we we still weren't able to get pregnant. God didn't come through for us. You know? What and so now I'm I'm having to grieve when I wanted to just push it push it aside. And it was a really, really challenging season for my wife because I just thought that she didn't have faith like I did. Um, I didn't I didn't let her express her emotions of grief and heal, get through the stages of healing by allowing her to grieve, by kinda shutting shutting her down through that spiritual bypassing. And, really, until the Enneagram, I was a horrible counselor. I administered to people in horrible ways when people would say, I can't get out of bed. I'm depressed. I'm like, well, you just need to, you know, read Psalm read Psalm 42 and just get the heck out of bed. Like, what are you doing?

Steph Barron Hall: 39:03

Be anxious for nothing. There. You're

Tyler Zach: 39:05

Yeah. I wouldn't say it like that. I mean

Steph Barron Hall: 39:07

Oh, that that happened to me.

Tyler Zach: 39:10

I'm just trying to exaggerate a little bit here to show

Steph Barron Hall: 39:13

Yeah.

Tyler Zach: 39:14

the the the dark side of type threes because I don't hear enough threes talking about the dark side, and I I would have really benefited from it. So, um, um, so, yeah, I I just really misrepresented God to my wife, and and, but now we're we're a much healthier healthier place, of course. But, um, and now I having gone through infertility and having cried and wept, and you know, and now I go to the bible verse where Ruth and Naomi and Boaz, that that story, uh, where Naomi says, you know, call me Mara, which means bitter because because the Lord has taken everything away from me, and I am bitter. And so now I'm like, you can be bitter. Like, you can you can go through that that emotion and and yell and scream and get to the bottom of your anger because that is that's healthy. That's what that's what it's gonna take to to move on and grow and and heal up. So bad. Those emotions aren't bad.

Steph Barron Hall: 40:22

Nope. They're totally necessary. Yeah. And and I think, um, you know, you mentioned B and Araneo earlier, and I feel like they have really opened my eyes to how emotional threes actually are, um, because they believe that threes are the most emotional type, the heart of the heart center. But it takes a lot of excavation to get to that part of ourselves. And sometimes we can't. And sometimes we wish we could put it all back in the bottle, which is how I feel a lot of the time. But, yeah, that makes sense, especially with, like, the 3 6 relationship, um, and the 3 being honestly impatient. I think that that's, like, a big theme for threes that, um, we we sometimes, like, overlook. Um, I mean, I don't know if people in relationship with threes overlook, but sometimes threes are like, I'm not impatient. You know? This took 3 times longer than I expected. It's like, well, your expectations were incorrect.

Tyler Zach: 41:28

I I would say that twos, you know, when they move to 8, they hulk out, when they're not being supported, and they they they finally get had enough is enough. Like and then they hulk out, like, you have not done what I've done for you. And I feel like the 3 hostility comes in a lot through the after the somebody interrupts them or through the impatience. Like you're saying, we can get hostile really quick when someone interrupts us while we're working and or is coming to us with emotions, and it's like, we don't have time for this. So we just try to plow forward, and we can get yeah. That I think that's where a lot of the 3 hostility comes from is is we feel like we have to keep working. And so, yeah, working for an unhealthy 3 is like working for Ferro. And we're we're just telling people to make bricks and get it done faster, and it's all part of the machine. And we've we're we forget that we're human beings with emotions that need to slow down and, you know, threes need to budget more time for interruptions. That's that's 1 of the things I tell threes. Schedule your day at, like, 75 percent tasks and then leave 25 percent open for interruptions, for feelings, and for all kinds of things that you would normally plan for.

Steph Barron Hall: 42:53

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a big thing that I've been navigating as I've been working with teams. Um, over the last few years, obviously, everyone is remote. Um, and a lot of people are back in person, but a lot of people still aren't. And 1 thing I talk with threes about a lot is actually that piece of being so frustrated and impatient when somebody interrupts them, whether that's, like, somebody sends them a Slack or somebody just, like, opens their their office door, and they're like, oh, what are you doing? Why are you interrupting me? Um, and going from, like, 0 to, you know, 60 in a second where you're like, I'm so pissed at you now, um, and how it's actually we think that it's gonna guard us and be helpful, but ultimately, like, why are we working so hard? You know, if you're working so hard so you can spend more time with your family eventually or retire and, you know, you want to have relationships. You want to have people around you that will be there. Um, and sometimes we forget that we can't do that all the time. Like, people aren't always gonna stay there if you we don't treat them kindly. Yeah.

Tyler Zach: 44:01

Exactly. I think a lot of it is image based. Like, we we wanna look good, so we wanna achieve more, so we can look good. But some of it, I I don't think it's image based. I think it's just we have this fear that somehow we're for some reason, we're gonna drown. And if we don't get a few more emails done at 10 o'clock before we go to bed and and get ahead, then then we're gonna drown, or we're gonna we're gonna get so far behind that we're gonna suffer catastrophic depletion, uh, or it's just weird. That that but that's the internal word of world of a 3 is, I just have to or else. don't know if that resonates with you.

Steph Barron Hall: 44:43

Yeah. Well, I think, you know, back to hoping the holy idea for type 3. Whenever I first learned the holy ideas, I was like, I don't get this. Like, I feel like I'm really hopeful. You know? I I like hope. But then once I learned the fixation is that tendency to believe, like, if I don't do it, everything's gonna fall apart. And at the core of that concept of, like, having to do everything is, like, I have no trust that anything will ever happen how it's supposed to unless I actually do it. And that's why we have to send those emails. That's why we have to work so hard. Um, and, like, last year, I I literally had months on end where I was, like, offline. I was not sending emails. I was burned out. I was barely working. And it was kind of, like, humbling in a sense because I was like, oh, this is yeah. It's not me doing it, any of it. You know?

Tyler Zach: 45:41

Man, that's really good stuff. Uh, I think threes at their worst are full of, you know, false hope, false promises. You know, we serve Kool Aid and like to drink the Kool Aid ourselves. We cast vision. We're good at casting vision, and we know how to tell people what they want or what the group wants, what church wants, what the community wants, but then have a really hard time following through.

Steph Barron Hall: 46:11

Mhmm.

Tyler Zach: 46:11

dish out a lot of false promises, and people don't realize that about threes is or 3 threes don't realize that, that they're constantly trying to encourage people and give them hope, and they're telling them things that are gonna happen or that people assume that they're gonna make happen and then don't actually follow through on those things. And so then there's a extreme distrust, uh, from our family members and friends and community, distrust in us that we're actually gonna do what we say we're gonna do. Uh, so, you know, working working through that myself. But you said I mean, I love how you framed, like, the the virtue of or the holy idea of hope of being like, what hope actually is. It's it's having faith to know that not everything is resting on us, that we can take a break, that we can rest and have faith in that, that if we slow down, that things are gonna keep moving in the world and everything's gonna be okay. Uh, that's that's really beautiful.

Steph Barron Hall: 47:09

Yeah. Um, I didn't come up with it. Thanks to A. H. Alma's, uh, for that 1. Well, I'm curious if you can tell me a little bit more about the NEA Summit. So I just got to work with you on my portion of that, of course. And what has it been like to put that event together?

Tyler Zach: 47:29

Yeah. So the NEA Summit, the love and relationships edition that that you're on, uh, really kinda aims to connect Enneagram enthusiasts, like those who are listening right now, to over 20 experts who have done a lot of thoughtful work around the topic of Enneagram and relationships. So the goal is for everyone to gain, really, Enneagram secrets to take all their relationships to the next level. That's sort of the slogan for it, to help with the relationship with their partner, their child, their coworker, and so on. Uh, so I I love, like, just the community aspect of bringing people together because a lot of it is, you know, we we all have our own individual books. We have our own individual ecourses, classes, things like that. But to come together as a community and learn from a variety of different experts, uh, is is, I just think, wonderful. And the reason why I like it selfishly is that it gives me a chance to to meet and connect with, like, really smart, humble, and sacrificial leaders like Steph Baron Hall. Uh, so selfishly, I just love getting getting on and connecting with you. It just brings a lot of joy, especially being an entrepreneur and working from home, the the opportunity to get to to meet just some of my heroes and the people that I've learned from. Like, I've been using your book for the last 4 years as 1 of my go to sources in my writing. And so to get the chance to to meet you and then connect you to all the people that follow me and all the people that follow Suzanne Stabile and all these other great authors, it just, uh, brings me a lot of joy.

Steph Barron Hall: 49:05

Yeah. Yeah. That's so cool. Has anything surprised you about it?

Tyler Zach: 49:10

It surprised me. The demand for it really surprised me. Like, I wasn't out to do Enneagram summits, but I did my first 1 because I thought, oh, it might be kinda fun to to do this 1 time event to get people together, but then there was a huge demand for it. People tons of people showed up. I think I had, like, 4000 people register for my 2 2 summits last year. I was like, people really want this. They want community. Uh, post COVID, they wanna come together and learn from multiple people. You may get the best wisdom from multiple authors and speakers rather than just 1. And so the I see a demand for it. So that's why I'm like, okay. I wanna I'm gonna keep doing it if it's helpful. So let's do an NEA summit on parenting, relationships, uh, subtypes. You know, we can just, it's endless. And so I'm gonna keep doing it because I I have a lot of fun doing it, and I think it's beneficial to other people.

Steph Barron Hall: 50:04

Yeah. That's so cool. So what practical advice would you give to a 3 who is new on their self discovery journey?

Tyler Zach: 50:13

Well, I don't know why any Enneagram 3 wouldn't like the Enneagram. It's sort of like chat GPT for your soul. Uh, it helps you to go further, faster in life. Uh, it gives you endless life hacks. I mean, I almost thought about calling myself, you know, like, the personality life hacker or something like that, uh, because it really is like personality life hacks. But that that's that's where the problem lies, though, is that Enneagram threes can use our practical nature, of sort of getting all the the tips and the steps to grow or to be successful rather than working on all the hearts hard stuff. And so what we need to do, uh, what I'd tell threes to do first is to focus on focus on the hard stuff first. Focus on the image problem, focus on our vanity, focus on our workaholism and what what's driving that, focus on our immature and stunted emotional life. I mean, I just wanna kinda say that for what it is. The lot of threes have an an immaturity or just an an undeveloped emotional life that really impacts our relationships. And, again, it's because we haven't made space for our emotions. So if we haven't made space for our emotions and haven't dealt with emotions within the the stages of grief, for for example, we're just not gonna be further along as further as farther along as other people. And so we have a lot a lot of work to do to catch up, to be emotionally mature. And, um, you know, like, we're I would say we're we're like airplanes. They're like to fly high, fly fast, and then we net we we know where the storms are. We know where the emotions are that's where where there's gonna be turbulence that's gonna slow us down, and so we just, we just fly quickly around the the emotions, uh, and that's a problem. And so we need to we need to deal with our emotional, um, lives. And so that's that's what I would say is focus on the hard the hard things first rather than just go to the the concrete and practical tips to improve your you know, your gifts in the workplace or, you know, something like that.

Steph Barron Hall: 52:28

Yeah. For sure. Um, I think also, like, not being a 3 about your inner work stuff, like, not being like, I'm gonna do it all in the next 6 months. You know, just, like, allow yourself to take time. Um, I think that we can be impatient with that too.

Tyler Zach: 52:43

Yeah. When I I didn't grow up in a branch of evangelicalism that was slow. It's more kinda fast paced and you know what I mean? So when I get around Enneagram teachers who are like, let's slow down and listen to our body and just yeah. Like, what are you talking about? What are you what are you doing? This is so foreign to me, uh, but it's so helpful to be able to slow down and to listen to your body. I was like, I never thought my body could be useful in helping me tap into my emotions and what I should be doing rather than what I think other people you know, like, even being in conversations where I feel like my blood is boiling, usually, it's just easy to suppress that and then say whatever you need to say to keep there from being conflict or smooth things over. When that your body should be, like, telling you this is a there's a problem here. Slow down. Say what you really wanna say. You know, this is this is 1 example of how slowing down to listen to to pay attention to your body is is helpful. But us threes, we we just are going too fast to be able to recognize those those warning signals.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:55

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Um, okay. Final 2 questions. Tell me about a book that has helped you, refreshed you, or shaped you in the last year.

Tyler Zach: 54:07

Yeah. So Here on a Mission by Donald Miller has probably been the most impactful book for me and the book that actually caused me to leave full time ministry to spend time with my family like I talked about before. My wife, uh, listened to the audiobook. She's like, oh my goodness. This is such a type 3 book. And, uh, I, you know, gave her some slack about that and, uh, got insecure. But it's it's all about, like, your it's like life planning and thinking about the rest of your future and your purpose. But it's very anti 3 because it really helps you to think about, k, how many years do you have left to live, and then and then backtrack to think reverse engineer your life to think, okay. What I don't wanna live for other people. Like, I don't wanna waste my remaining years just living for external validation and approval. Like, I gotta figure out what what's most important to me. Um, what are my values? Who who are the people that are the most important to me? And how can I reverse engineer my life to to live out what the next few decades, uh, the best that I possibly can that are true to me, and it's gonna benefit my loved ones? So that that's why that book has been really helpful because I'm like, okay. Now I have less years to live than I've already lived. That's scary. Uh, and so now how do and and I have 1 decade left with kids in the home. Like, how is this next decade going to be a a a really good 1, um, for my family? So that that book just really helped really change the trajectory of this my this next decade. And it's helped me rearranged everything, uh, to spend time with my family, to partner with team with Lindsay. Uh, and so it's just been a very valuable book for those reasons.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:03

Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Okay. Cool. Um, okay. What has a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Tyler Zach: 56:11

So I mentioned this earlier, but I'll just say it again. And that the advice that has stuck with me is when my friend in my last year of ministry, he just said, you know, Lindsay is always gonna be with you in every season of life. The church won't. I think that's just applicable to everybody listening that the thing that's you know, you gotta ask yourself, is this career that I'm a part of or this this group of friends that I'm with, like, what do you do you realize that there's certain there's certain to be certain people in your life that are with you till the end, that are gonna be with you, um, at your bedside when you're dying. Like, are you are you being loyal to them? Are you loving them? Are you serving them? Uh, or are you giving yourself to some other cause, uh, in life and to to rearrange your priorities, um, accordingly. So that was just really, really helpful advice.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:04

Yeah. Yeah. That's great advice. Um, okay. So where can we find you? I will link the NA summit in the show notes, but tell everyone about your books, anything else you've got going on.

Tyler Zach: 57:17

Yeah. Uh, so gospel for Enneagram, uh, gospel, f o r, Enneagram, uh, on Instagram. That's kinda where the party's at. That's where I've been posting for quite a while. And if so you can find me on there, but also the other social media platforms. Um, and then you can find me at tyler zock dot com. That's that's my website, and that that has a link to my books. And so not everybody might be interested in my my books, but they are I I started this project 5 years ago, about 4 years ago. I'm gonna be finishing the the last book this year, but really wanted to write a faith based devotional for every Enneagram type. And, uh, I pull from 30 different authors, uh, for my source material, and I have over 200 citations in my book. So I'm quoting from both Christian authors, but majority of the books that I cite aren't from faith based authors because I just wanted to I wanted a book to sort of encapsulate or curate the best content out there for each type, and then you put that wisdom, uh, in there. And so if you're so those who are, like, faith based listeners, they'll I think they will really enjoy those books because they're a labor of love. I spent 6 months on each book just laboring every single morning over the words. And and, really, I like Sarah Jane Case's book. Her last book is just like like a series of letters, and my books are like a letter. It's like me writing you to encourage you as a 3, to help you win, to help you grow, uh, to help you walk away feeling really, really encouraged, um, by how you were designed and made. And so I I think that's really, yeah, benefiting a lot of people. And so but I think a lot of people who aren't, uh, don't really go to faith based resources can still benefit a lot from the books because, like I said, I I pull from 30 different authors. And so that's been a really fun project that I'm wrapping up. It's a 5 year project that I'm wrapping up this year. It'll be the fifth year, and so I'm I'm working on type fives. I I saved them for last because I thought, man, they can go to the library. They can they're researchers. They'll they'll figure it out until I get to them.

Steph Barron Hall: 59:30

Yeah. Yeah.

Tyler Zach: 59:31

But

Steph Barron Hall: 59:32

Love it. Okay. Great. Yeah. I will definitely, um, link all of that in the show notes. And I just so appreciate you coming to share your story with me today, and I'm really looking forward to the NE summit.

Tyler Zach: 59:44

Yes. I can't wait to to have people listen in, uh, to your wonderful wisdom on your book. I know your book was written quite a while ago, uh, now, but it's still so, so valuable. And, uh, I like I said, I've I pull it off the shelf, you know, every single almost every single month. And so I've continued to glean from it and so excited that you're writing a new book. I cannot wait to get my hands in that book because everything you write seems to turn to gold. And, uh, and, uh, just so thankful for for all the work that you've done, Steph. So thanks for for having me on. It's been really fun.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:20

Of course. Thanks so much. Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify