Surrender as a Pathway to Healing as an Enneagram 4 with Dr. Chad Prevost

Samson Q2U Microphone: 1:36

Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in real life, a podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host Steph Baron hall. And on this week's episode of Enneagram IRL, we meet with Dr. Chad provost, Chad provost. PhD, M a M div. Is a certified Enneagram coach, executive coach and business consultant. He co-founded big self school in 2020, and he specializes in using the Enneagram and other important tools for taking big leaps in burnout and a stress. And if you remember the name Privo sets, because I had Dr. Shelley Prevost, uh, Chad's wife. On the podcast about a year ago and she's in any grim too. And so he talks about her process of learning and understanding the Enneagram. And as you'll hear in this episode, Chad. Also went through the same Enneagram program that I did, which is called Chestnut pies, Enneagram academy. as well as some other programs, he has a PhD in creative writing., and we're actually here today to talk about his book, which is called shock point, the Enneagram and burnout and stress. No. I was able to reach out to book an advanced copy before it was published in January. And it's a really great look at the Enneagram through this lens. He talks a lot about the burnout and stress. I think that the way that he kind of positions. The Enneagram in that context is really, really useful. And also it's a really well-written, and very resource rich. Book about, you know, how to apply all of these different concepts. And the reason that I really liked that is because I love it when I'm reading something and they make a statement and I'm like, oh, I want to know more about that. So you can go read the study, you can go read the other book. Um, I really appreciate that type of book. So Chad brings a lot of that insights and research into this work and in this podcast, we talk about Chad's introduction to the Enneagram, how he found himself as a one-to-one or a sexual four. Which is the subtype of type four that Chad most resonates with his. Inner work experience and a recent actually near death experience that he had and how it kind of married with his inner work that he's been doing over these past few months. How he's been able to understand the envy and idealization of type four, as well as. What it was like for him to write his book and to really understand and explore, all of that. So if you are four or you have a four in your life, I think you'll really enjoy this one. And also if you're really invested in inner work, or you just want to learn more about stress and burnout. This is a fantastic episode. You should also check out Chad's website, which is big self school.com. And the doctor's Prevost. Uh, they host the big self school podcast, which I love, I often send it to my coaching and typing clients because it's, they just have all of these fantastic episodes with all the different types. And so I'm able to really recommend their Enneagram work. because I know that they're doing high quality work with out missing the nuance, which is really common. And so I really appreciate this. Also another thing that you should know is that. Perhaps about a year ago, my husband, Brandon and I did an Enneagram. Relationship Q and a about ourselves and our relationship and all of that. And we talked about how Brandon had had a really difficult time binding himself really in the Enneagram system, which is actually not that uncommon. Um, and I think especially cause I'm really close to him. It could be easy for me to see different things, so at the time of that recording, we thought Brandon wasn't any grim one. And actually there's a lot of one there still, and it makes a lot of sense. And Brandon might choose later on to come back on the podcast and share a little bit more of his story, but just for what you need to know for today's purposes. And this podcast episode is that. Several months ago. Um, actually, not that long after we, we recorded that episode, Brandon started to recognize that he's actually in any grant for was quite a surprise to me initially, but there were some really humorous moments when we started to recognize him as a four. So Chad and I actually do mention that in this podcast episode because, Chad is the same. Subtype as my husband, Brandon. And we talked about that a bit. So just FYI, if you're like, wait, that doesn't sound right. Yes. We did share that Brandon in the past as a one. Um, but in fact it seems that four is the best place for him on any grim system. So. Please be sure to check out the show notes where I have all of the links. I also have some key takeaways from the episode listed there and you will also find. A link to grab Chad's book, which is again called Chuck point, the Enneagram and burnout and stress. It's a really fantastic read. We didn't go super into it today in the podcast episode, but I really recommend checking it out if you've ever experienced burnout or stress. So I guess that means all of us. And without further ado here is Chad Prevost.

Steph Barron Hall: 6:38

Okay, Chad, welcome to the podcast.

Chad Prevost: 6:41

Steph, great to be here. Thanks so much for the invitation.

Steph Barron Hall: 6:45

Of course. Um, I'm always excited to talk with new Enneagram friends, though of course, you know, we haven't chatted that much, but I do know your wife and our, our guests know your wife from about a year ago when she was on the podcast.

Chad Prevost: 7:00

Okay. The, yeah, that's great. It is, um, great to be here as well, and just doing this on my own, not without, without Shelly. I don't need my, I don't need my better half here for this.

Steph Barron Hall: 7:13

Well, we are going to be talking about your book today, so I'm, I'm gonna be really interested to hear more about that. Um, but to begin, I'd love to hear more about you and your background. How did you get into the Enneagram and how did you end up where you are now?

Chad Prevost: 7:29

I mean, you know, I was aware of the Enneagram just slightly. I remember in seminary in 19, in Waco, Texas, outta Starbucks seeing a book on the Ennea. I think it was the Wisdom of the Enneagram and like, I think it was like 1996. But just seeing it, being aware of it is one thing. I didn't dive into it. Then instead I bought, um, the book The Artist Way by Julia Cameron. And that led me down a wonderful Road of the Morning pages and really practicing, uh, some of that because even when I was in seminary, I remember going, I don't know if this is really exactly my calling, I really wanna be a writer. Um, but to bring it all the way up to when I did dive in deeply to the Enneagram was 2019. I think Shelly had been. Already working with it, maybe joining the CP Enneagram community around that time. And I was in a bit of a holding pattern at a, uh, working at a tech startup, a tech and logistics startup. And I was on vacation and I, um, took a copy of In Search of the Miraculous With Me and the Fourth Way and In Search of Miraculous. Those are, there's a lot of similar information in those two books. But, uh, and I was just stunned by the depth, the specificity and the just brilliance, the charismatic brilliance of je uh, and the way that, I guess, PD Usin. I would document it and I began, I could just read, I read just a few pages a day and'cause it was so rich and you can't just read through it. And it really stuck with me and moved me. And that was the beginning of a turning point where I was like, okay, let's, let's take a, let's take a course in, in this. Let's, um, let's go deeper into this. Let's, uh, and so I, I first, at first, so not knowing the CP Enneagram community, um, as well, I was like, well, Shelly, that's, that's a nice little community you've got. Well, I'm not gonna overlap. I'm gonna do my own thing. I'm gonna find a good community too. So, so I went with, um, I found the Spectrum Method with, um, Jerry Wagner and ended up taking a couple of courses with him and getting certified through that program. And, um, That is great. That's good stuff. And I, you know, really, really respect, um, Dr. Wagner and his webs test and his teaching. We've had him on the podcast. It's brilliant, a man who has been in the Enneagram for a long time. But I tell you, not long after getting that certification, I was like, I feel like I understand the Enneagram intellectually, but I don't know that I really understand it at this, working on it in a psychological level with the depth that would eventually actually. So I was like, I, I, I felt like I needed more. The long and short of it is, and um, so I signed up for. Really just a course at first with, uh, the CP Enneagram community. And I was really blown away by the, the, the quality of e the participants as well as what we were covering, and ended up deciding to jump into the CP Enneagram community as well. And that was a rigorous, as you know, well Steph, uh, that was a rigorous program that like, you know, it did it, it really worked on me while building up skills. And then that was like propelling me more and more and challenging me to, uh, use it as a coach. And that was the big jump to, to move from being teacher workshop facilitator, um, think writer, some of those things that were more familiar to me. Um, having gotten a PhD in creative writing and been a professor for a while. Um, and so those, those were my, and then to be challenged to, like, I was, I remember I didn't exactly know or fully understand that I needed to coach a little to, to complete the program. I remember at this one point. And so my assigned coach was like, you know, you're, you're gonna have to do it. Just go ahead and just jump in. It was Janina, Janina Weiss.

Steph Barron Hall: 12:27

she's my coach too.

Chad Prevost: 12:29

Okay. She is amazing. Like, I didn't know actually at the time how, uh, just how brilliant of a coach she is. We can talk about that. Um, but any, but, so I met with her the, the several times and she was like, Che, maybe you just like on Facebook, you just announced that you'll do some pro bono coaching. And anyway, that did lead me. That was the jumping off point of. Be of really beginning the coaching through the Enneagram too. So maybe I'm digressing, but the long and short of it is, um, it was about 2019 when I first read the, the book. It was je who isn't exactly the Enneagram. Right. But then that did lead to, um, you know, it was a pivotal point in my life, like I said, and, and it's been just such an interesting transition and unexpected, very rewarding. And this is where I want to continue using the Enneagram in my own spiritual development, my psychological work, as well as using it, um, when coaching with clients.

Steph Barron Hall: 13:39

Yeah, I mean I think I really like Jerry Wagner's work as well. Um, like Nine Lenses on the World I think is the title of, um, I'm like, oh, I don't have it on my desk anymore. Uh, but it's such a good book and I think he brings a lot of that like, psychological aspect to it that kind of gives it a lot more structure. But you're right, like when you go into CP Enneagram, you think that you know the Enneagram well, and then you go into that and you're like, oh wow, this opens up a whole new dimension.'cause it really is bringing in that fourth way and like the spiritual aspect of it.

Chad Prevost: 14:13

It does. Um, yeah, so like B is so grounded in the psychological and just, and she too is, so as you're kind of saying, deliberate organized, knows it from the, especially from the point of view of a psych, is it a psychiatrist or a psychologist,

Steph Barron Hall: 14:32

Yeah. Psychotherapists.

Chad Prevost: 14:33

a psycho psychotherapist. And, and then, um, iRANO compliments it with that. Yeah. That, I guess it's Gerian

Steph Barron Hall: 14:44

Yeah,

Chad Prevost: 14:46

Um, so together they are a powerful tandem, aren't they?

Steph Barron Hall: 14:51

they are. Yeah. And I agree with you about like going in and being like, oh, wow. You know, just blown away by it. Um, and I'm, I'm curious then how you found your type, and I feel like you've given us a few hints already, but how did you find your type and, um, really settle on your subtype as well?

Chad Prevost: 15:12

Yeah, so it wasn't too hard to figure out that, you know, as a, uh, a poet and, um, lover of music and all the, all kinds of arts that, um, that I was of for. But the one tricky part of it was, um, Shelly and I were occasionally like, yeah, but you know, read this description of the eight, you know, you're kind of, you're kind of intense too, Chad, and, you know, and sometimes you bring this aggressive energy and you can sometimes be blunt and, um, And so let's look at eight. You know, so I would look at eight a little bit and, and see some things that I was like, yeah, a lot of that's true, but just a lot of it's not. And then, yes, enter subtypes. And once I understood the three subtypes and the sexual four, uh, we was, it was pretty much a slam dunk. It explained the intensity, it explained. So the, yeah, so the, the one-to-one sexual four is definitively where I fall. Although I will say even with that, there were two or three times, um, where like you could scrutinize the descriptions. And there were times where I was like, well, first of all, the, the, the type description of sexual one-to-one four is like, I mean, for in, in some settings it's called hate and I hated that. Um, so I resisted that a little bit. Now it's called, um, of course competition. And I do, I can see the competition. Yep. But, um, but there were a lot of times too where I thought maybe I'm lead, I lead with the self preservation. Actually maybe I am a self pre for, um, because tenacity and just being able to take it and like as a writer, you could, you would just have to take rejection and just take it and take it and put on kind of a happy face. Um, but in the, you know, I think self pre is my, is my middle, uh, instinct. And I think my suppressed repressed is the social. So that's,

Steph Barron Hall: 17:42

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um, and it is, it is tricky. I actually had a really hard time Al also figuring out my subtype. Um, I tried them all on and then found my subtype finally. Um, it can be a really difficult thing and I think it can. Be challenging to be like, ah, I don't know if, if it's this or that. Um, and I find for me, the looking at my subtype brings up a lot more self-criticism. Um,

Chad Prevost: 18:11

Now you're three, but what, what's your subtype? I forget. Oh, okay. You also

Steph Barron Hall: 18:17

stack. Mm-hmm.

Chad Prevost: 18:18

interesting, so, and your husband is the sexual four as well. A sec. So, well, how does that work in your dynamics where you have the intent two of with the intensity?

Steph Barron Hall: 18:31

Yeah. Yeah. It's been really interesting. Um, there is a lot of the intensity though, I think with the sexual three, how it kind of plays out is a lot more of the, um, like appeasing response or a lot more of the, um, blending,

Chad Prevost: 18:50

Mm.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:50

um, that comes out a lot more.

Chad Prevost: 18:53

Shape shifting into what is pleasing, what you, you are thinking is pleasing to your, like audience, I guess in this case, your, your husband.

Steph Barron Hall: 19:02

Yeah. And I think, um, a lot of my life, I felt like I am a conduit to other people's experiences. I don't have my own sort of purpose or experience in the world. Um, and that's been something that since doing, like the retreat a with, with being iRANO that I've been working on a lot, and it has just like literally just dug up so much stuff. Like everything has been, you know, tilled. I, I would say like, like tilling soil, you know,

Chad Prevost: 19:33

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 19:34

but it, it's good. It's just been really different. Yeah.

Chad Prevost: 19:39

Did you go to the in-person or was it online?

Steph Barron Hall: 19:42

I went in person.

Chad Prevost: 19:44

Yeah, me too. To retreat a in California and Wow, that was like 14 months ago. What, speaking of turning points, that was quite a week. Quite a week. And um, actually what was kind of funny was getting to that retreat. A i, I don't know if like, you know, the universe was, was kind of resisting, but I, I think it was just bad plane flights. But, um, I was just like the, the planes were delayed and delayed and delayed and I was getting really stressed and I was like, I'm gonna miss this retreat. Get me on a plane, please let, and I, I stayed the night in the Atlanta airport waiting for my flight. Uh, the long and short of it is it finally, you know, happens and I'm flying in and it's, I'm going to maybe be like 30 minutes late to the very, very beginning of it. And I just, they, the, you know, the, the Uber drives me in to the, um, Alameda, uh, area where the, um, the retreat, the retreat was to take place. And it was at the center, I forget the name of the center. Um, but they had a lot of programs going on there. And I, I run into the main office and I'm like, I'm here for the, you know, retreat. Please. Like, where is it? You know, and they're like, He, he kind of po this, the guy, like, he points to this room and, and I look and everyone is silently meditating and I don't, you know, so I just, I go in and I take off my shoes like everyone had, and I'm just kind of sit, just, I'm like, wow, this was intense. You know, I go from the intensity and the gr and the hurry, hurry, hurry for like 24 hours. And then I get there and suddenly I find myself in a room taking off my shoes and meditating quietly for like 45 minutes.

Steph Barron Hall: 21:55

Oh.

Chad Prevost: 21:56

And then it, you know, this, they, they do this chime thing and we kind of get up and leave and someone comes from that community comes outta the room and they go, excuse me. Um, I'm not sure that you're in the right place. Um, this is the silent Buddhist retreat, you know, meditation retreat. And I was like,

Steph Barron Hall: 22:18

Oh,

Chad Prevost: 22:20

you serious? What?

Steph Barron Hall: 22:23

oh,

Chad Prevost: 22:23

And so right around the corner they're like, I think yours is over here. So I walk, I walk down the, the, uh, hallway and I go into this other building and I walk into this, um, sort of chapel and our group is walking around in circles, um, and pretending to like have their bubble. It was like the bubble moment. It. And everybody looks over at me and goes,

Steph Barron Hall: 22:53

Oh

Chad Prevost: 22:55

I felt so welcomed, but I couldn't believe that I then had spent 45 minutes, um, with the silent, um, Buddhist retreat

Steph Barron Hall: 23:04

yeah, yeah. You're like, this is what I was looking for.

Chad Prevost: 23:07

that's right. My people walking around with their arms out, um, pretending they're in a bubble.

Steph Barron Hall: 23:13

Yes. Yeah. That's so funny. Well, I'm so glad that they had such a welcoming reception. And I think even at times when I've seen people from C P m, like, they're not gonna remember me, and they're like, Steph, and I'm like, oh wow, okay. You remember? I dunno, they're just so welcoming. But I was curious how for your type that would show up.'cause I could imagine it being like the whole inferiority superiority complex for the the sexual four. I could imagine that being challenging.

Chad Prevost: 23:45

It wasn't so much the comparing, but I think what shows up in, in the, in those moments stuff is the intensity. And, you know, I just like, and, and also I guess the fourish part is like, I wear it on my sleeve. So, and that's what I've been told throughout my life, not just adulthood, is like, you don't have to guess how Chad's feeling. You know? It's like he's gonna, he's gonna let, let the world know. And, and so I've been growing, I've been growing on that,

Steph Barron Hall: 24:18

Yeah.

Chad Prevost: 24:19

that end of the, yeah. Here at the age of 50.

Steph Barron Hall: 24:23

So if, if another sexual force is listening or even, you know, other types that struggle with that, like what would you, what advice can you give them?

Chad Prevost: 24:31

I, it almost, I'm just, I'm thinking about it because I'm like, what? You know, I don't know if the very first step is to tame, is to work on taming the sexual instinct. Um, that can happen in so many different ways. It needs to happen in its own time. Um, and it, it did. Hmm. I mean, there are so many things to work on in general as of four. Right. Um, I remember what didn't work for me, if I, we'll take a couple steps back. Learning about. So you learn, you, you hear, read the description of envy and it doesn't necessarily really sound like what it, what it is. And it's not one of the more famous kinds of, uh, say, um, you know, it's not, it's not like pride or gluttony or lust. It's envy. Uh, and so you have to kind of, and then to, to hear that the, the antidote to, to it is equanimity that just did. Still, sometimes when I hear that, that language or I try to pursue equanimity, like ordinariness, I don't know, it doesn't work as much. What does work? Um, in terms of like, it is almost like, and I guess it is more spiritual, but like a bit of a, a letting go. Of these things that we thought mattered. Um, I, it, well, I've also become aware of it in terms of a fix. The, so this is actually some recent help. Let's see if we're getting somewhere with, with trying to, I was recently a little bit in melancholy and so the fixation more aspect of things, less the more head part. And Janina put my, my, I call her my spiritual coach now, not just like, and she. She pointed out that like, I still do a lot of idealization, fours aren't the only ones that idealize, I know sevens do, I think ones do. Um, but fours really idealize like the, the, I gotta have the perfect conversation with somebody or, um, you know, if I'm on vacation, it's got, it's gotta, it really needs to live up to these, these high expectations. And, um, or you know, if I am going to be a writer, I need to really leave a mark. I mean, I need to, you know, just all of these idealizations constantly from big to very, very little and suddenly dawned on me like, you know, the way she was pointing it out, it's like, Constantly living in the striving for an idealization, of course leaves you feeling melancholic because here's reality and here's the idealization. And it's just on occasion, you might nail it briefly, but for the most part, that's the longing that things are never quite right. And so I guess maybe that's where I would begin to help someone, even just in their head to like, understand all of this idealization you're constantly doing that can begin to free you from this comparing, which is very much that keeps you an envy, keeps you an envy of, you know, it's not just materialistic. Oh, they have something that I don't have it. Um, it it, you know, and it's not even as black and white and obvious like, oh, this. This gifted, you know, ball player or, you know, or like, I'll never be a great ball. It's, it's just, it's constant. It's like if you're in an office, well, I'm missing the right poster, you know, or it's, I don't have, I need, I don't have quite the, I haven't read quite the right things. There's this constant, and I think in order, if we're gonna pull a thread a little bit of like, what could we say first to a four maybe, um, is this idea, I think let's do idealization to just what, what is real that I think that helps get us into equanimity a little bit more. Um, some of these things I think are a little bit hard to define, you know, and, um, but what, so, and I've, I did, it helped too with the Enneagram work. To begin to realize that even when you're, you're say, sort of flattering someone or you're acknowledging, hey, you know, you are a really good writer, like that's you and envy, even though you're remarking on it and you're saying you're, you're still in envy. You're recognizing that they have something that you don't. And I think there's just kind of, I think it's helped. It's, it's helped to constantly recognize, yeah, I guess kind of a human ordinariness that we all possess and, but it's just taken a lot of work. And I think it happens on different levels. Some of them might be emotional, some of them might be, um, head, um, I'll tell you, I think what's top of mind right now, what's making this a little bit more hard, hard to articulate in maybe a simpler way is, um, I have a story that, of something that happened, um, just two weeks ago on the river, and, um, and I'd like to share it if I could. So I just, I just had, uh, a really, uh, I would, it was a life changing moment that I have been able to process a few days ago actually with Janina, my spiritual coach. And, um, let's see, the long and short of it is, um, I was paddle boarding on the Ocoee River and at the very, at the, it was a very pleasant time, um, paddling for about two hours. And we were coming up on the takeout where you, you take out, um, and you, you go back onto shore and I had barely missed it. And so I was continuing to float past it towards this bridge in a really strong current. And it was about, as it was about six feet deep of water and my, um, foot, my right foot was leashed to the board the way you're supposed to do it. So if you do come off the board, you know, it doesn't like float away. And, uh, I had taken off my p f d personal flotation device, um,'cause we were getting ready to end and it had been a really pleasant, chill thing and. I don't even exactly know how it all happened, but my board got kind of stuck as I was going under this bridge, or my leash got caught. I don't know. But I was getting sucked under the current, and I was trying to hold onto the board and I was beginning to drown really. I mean, things went from fun to unbelievably serious, really, really fast. And I yelled for help. I was with my brother and another friend. They were not, I recognized pretty quickly due to the current and where they were, that they weren't gonna be able to, they weren't gonna be able to help me.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:04

Yeah.

Chad Prevost: 32:06

And so I struggled and struggled and was like, I don't know what to do and I'm getting sucked under. And finally, um, at a certain point of desperation, after I had called out for help a couple of times I let, I just let go of the board.'cause I was like, this is just, I'm getting sucked under. I'm gonna let go of the board. And I just let myself kind, I kind of surrendered and let myself go with the flow of the river, but I was still stuck and it was still pulling me and I was going down under the water and I was like, oh my God, I very well made drown right now. And it's such a terrible way to die. And in that, in those instantaneous desperate moments where like there was a little bit of a part of me. That was surrendering to this thing that I had no control over while my physical body was in extreme like terror and just desperately trying to stay afloat above water. And, um, and in that, in those in moments, um, as I was, I was like, I was aware of, I was thinking so many things I've done have been a waste of my time, have been a waste of my life. All of these little anxieties. All of the things I worry, I've thought about my oldest son and all of the, the worry that I've put into like, is he gonna make it in, you know, as an adult? Is he gonna, I was like, I, you know, it's, I know he's gonna be okay and I'm not gonna, I wouldn't worry about him. And I thought about all of the, like, times I will get anxious before maybe speaking to a group or introducing myself or all of these different, and I was like, just thinking how, what a waste of time and all the plans that I had for the rest of my life were like, nothing, none of this matters. And, um, I felt like, so I went under again and I just, I did not know what, I couldn't get to the leash to get it off in the current, and, and then suddenly, like my leash just broke. The leash fi, it just broke. And I was like, free.

Steph Barron Hall: 34:37

Oh my gosh.

Chad Prevost: 34:38

And no one had saved me. I didn't even save myself. It just, my leash happened to break and I still had my shoes on and they felt so heavy. I could barely, like I thought about trying to take him off to swim over to the shore, but I didn't have the strength or wanna risk that. And I did make it over to the shore and where my brother was. And I just was like, just my body was heaving and for like 10 minutes, I just couldn't quite catch my breath. And I just, I looked up at the sky and the mountains in the background and I thought, I have been given a second chance right here. This is like right now, I might not be alive if my leash, I was both in shock that I had almost drowned and that my leash had, um, broke. And um, I really had this sense of all of this is gravy now. Right? All of this is extra that I might not have. Um, a few moments ago, might not have been able to say that I was, I had, and that was two weeks ago. Um, al it was 13 days ago, and I end, you know, my brother and and friend. They were like, really? Um, I. They were, they didn't know what to say and they were just like really relieved and really checking in to see if I was okay. Um, and you know, we kind of went on with the night as it just kind of shaking our heads in disbelief, but like, Hey, that was a close call, but you're fine. You're here and you're fine. And we'll think about who to share it with. I don't know, you know, I don't know what people are gonna be able to do with it, you know, or anybody's gonna, and I was like, I know, and I don't know. And, but I kind of like, while it was remarkable and, and, and just really frightening, terrifying, um, I guess I kind of held it in and there, like, there was like a little bit of my, the head work that I, it was like, dude, you're fine. Like, you're probably making a little bit too much outta this. But then when I shared it with my, um, coach a couple of days ago, As soon as I started telling her, um, what happened, um, I just started crying and I just wept for about 80 minutes, you know, just through the session and then just even after it. And it, it felt so good, Solie. And it was also like the strangely validating because it was like my body was kind of remembering and yeah. And I was like processing the intensity of the, of the moment. Um, and oh, you know, and actually, okay, so there's other little interesting connection points here. Um, eight years almost to the day before this moment happened on the same river, on the same avenue. Little, I mean little corridor of, of that river. I had taken my dog, I had a 65 pound, pretty big young. Boxer, uh, who's my brother and I, and I had this, but this boxer pup of our nine months, nine months old, even though he was 65 pounds, um, he had a heart condition because it turns out that we got him from a puppy mill. I didn't know that at the time. So they were overbreeding, and we had tried to get him neutered, and they said that we can't do it because he's got a very significant heart murmur, and we were afraid to put him down. And so I was like, okay, I've got a dog with a heart murmur. But, you know, I took him out and he was kinda swimming and doing things. Well, the long and short of that is he seems to have had a heart attack on the river and, you know, just, just plummets right off the board down into the water. And I, I, I, you know, pick him up and I put him on my board. And then for about an hour and a half or two hours, I paddle down the river with the 65 pound dead dog on my paddleboard. Yeah, I mean, just the, the events of that day were so, like, that was traumatizing. Uh, and I really, really just sobbed over that, like immediately I had immediate access to hows, I had to, you know, take him to an emergency vet, you know, that to get cremated that day. And, uh, and I, here's where I'm, where I'm going though, is I immediately wrote an essay detailing, um, all of the events of that day, losing Huck in 2015 on the river. So this was eight years, almost to the day, like eight years and 10 days later. Um, and then I find myself almost drowning. And the very first thought that went through my mind as I was almost drowning was, I cannot believe that I might die on the same river that. My dog died on. This is so, um, you know, but I was intellectually after the whole experience, I was telling myself, I'm not gonna live in fear. This is fine. I'm gonna just keep, you know. But Janina said, as soon as I told her the connection with the dog, she said, you know, dogs do have something sometimes to tell us. Chad, I would maybe not go back to that river, you know, anytime soon. And I was like, you know, you might be right. But where I'm getting at too is like, there's all these, so I had kind of disconnected my identity as a writer around that time. And so I go back this, the, a couple of days ago to the, to this essay that I had written, de documenting all these details of the death of my dog, Huck. And all these things I wrote in there about being a writer and being committed to it for your life, no matter, um, what, like, you know, no matter what, this is your life's work. And there are these times in my life where I really, it's almost like, is it shame or something? But when I disconnect, when I break off out of a relationship that I think I should be out of or when I like kind of turned my, after I graduated from seminary and got really upset with that, you know, the religious kind of, I really just turned my, I disconnect and I don't think it's healthy. And, and I think in some ways my aspirations to be kind of a literary writer, a writer make, trying to make meaning from life. I had really disconnected from that person. And both Shelly and my coach had suggested I write about this experience. And so I'm, I'm kind of come and, and the symbolism of the like river and, and then, and then Janine had pointed out like, Isn't it interesting that when you let you know,'cause I had shared with her things I'm struggling with the little things that, you know, and she was like, you know, I was preparing, I was re-looking at my notes and some of the things you said that you had, you were wanting to work on and to think, you know, think about you were struggling and holding onto the board and you were getting sucked under. And when you let go and you surrendered to the flow of the river, um, that's when your leash broke and you were free. And I was like, what? That is kind of incredible. And, and it's like, and I do have this second chance. And so the rest, so speaking of melancholy, the rest of. This past Tuesday after I talked to her after I had cried, then I was like kind of melancholic the rest of the, I was exhausted a little bit and um, I was tired and I just felt the sadness. And I think that sadness is like a grieving for the disconnection

Steph Barron Hall: 43:13

Yeah.

Chad Prevost: 43:14

of, of myself. So I'm really, really glad, I'm very grateful for, um, the experiences that led me to learning the Enneagram and becoming a coach. Like what a transformation this has been vocationally and personally, and this, it's where I needed to be. Um, and, and so much of the psychological work that I began to do, I was more open to doing the psychological work. And then that began to lead to the shifts of. Being like, wow, spiritual work is where, is like, where this all really, really goes. Um, and so I think that's kind of like what's coming up for me. It's like I've, I've had this intense experience, a flood of emotional and embodied and psychological things going on. Lots of, um, and, and I really, I like a, a kind of a, you know, not to over, over, over symbolize or dramatize it, but, um, a kind of a, a res a redemption, you know, like fr I almost drowned. And I really do feel like I've been given a second chance and it's like, what do I do with this? And there is a sense that it's almost like, and I was trying to explain this. Today to, um, a writer friend of mine. It's like, almost like there's a little bit of a sense of like, the, the gift, the call to be a writer was sort of like, not my gift to deny.

Steph Barron Hall: 45:03

Yeah.

Chad Prevost: 45:03

It's like, this is what I could, I can use to share with the world now. I don't know how, what that means now. And I, I know it's funny, like we're talking about, well, Chad, you just wrote this book, the Enneagram, but I, so like, I really do love, I I stand by this book and I, I'm, I'm pleased with, with the product of it. I think it can help people. But, um, but for some reason it still didn't quite feel like the writing, writing the,

Steph Barron Hall: 45:33

yeah.

Chad Prevost: 45:34

yeah. So, um, so that's why, that's where I'm, I'm all stirred up. You know, the, the waters are a little muddied right now for me, bay.

Steph Barron Hall: 45:42

Well thank you so much for sharing that story.'cause I can even, just like, as you're sharing it, I'm, you know, feeling like that terror and of course with your dog, like heart, heart wrenching, truly. Um, and I, I think the more that I go into this work with the Enneagram and, um, like the spiritual work and, you know, now I, I go to like a local Buddhist center, um,

Chad Prevost: 46:10

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 46:11

every weekend I find so much alignment with, with that work and in Alma and um, so like that theme of like surrendering and like, we have this especially, I mean, the specific delusion of type three right? Is like that I'm a separate doer, you know, that I can make the world or make my life into something that it's not meant to be. And, um, surrendering to like, what is my life meant to be? And it almost sounds a little bit like. You're opening up to that too, and thinking of, like, it could even be like that shock point of like,

Chad Prevost: 46:43

Oh, yes.

Steph Barron Hall: 46:44

you know, which actually is a great segue, right?

Chad Prevost: 46:47

That is a good segue. It definitely was a shock point. And, uh, you know, maybe, um, the universe or God is, uh, is saying, well, you wrote a book called Shock Point. Now you have to kinda live one. You gotta, you're gonna have to experience the shock point. And I'm like, do I really have to?

Steph Barron Hall: 47:05

Yeah.

Chad Prevost: 47:06

Um, apparently I did. Yes. Um, we have d different shock, you know, shock points happen in different ways.

Steph Barron Hall: 47:15

So I wanna hear more about your book, but I also really resonate with like that sense of like, I'm writing this Enneagram book and it's not the writing writing because I really feel that with my books now I'm writing my third one. Um, it's like you're kind of opening up to letting the work come out in cultivating that, but it doesn't feel like an extension of yourself you can really identify with because it's feels different. That's how I feel about it.

Chad Prevost: 47:45

Yeah. Yeah. In some ways it's like you are, you're trying to write it, you, you wanna write it in your own way. Uh, but it's, it's material that is sort of like, um, public domain, right? I mean, it's like we, we, these are characteristics that are shared that kind of originated with, um, Well, of course we know that the symbol of the Enneagram is very ancient, and Jeev didn't really do the, the, um, Enneagram of personality, but so at least was Zo and then Nho, right? I mean, it's, it's really, so we're trying to be, um, have fidelity and faithfulness to, um, their original contribution, um, and in a way shining kind of a different angle, a a different little bit of a light on it. That's why the, you know, the, the take I took was, um, the Enneagram and burnout and stress, which, you know, okay, so about the, you know, it's like, so I, there's, it's in three sections and the first two kind of like outline, um, the burnout epidemic and then it's our culture and, and then, and what stress does in the body. Uh, and then the lens, the lens with, on which it's like we're kind like, this is how your type shows up in stress. I don't know. I mean, I don't know if it needed those first two sections. Um, I think, I think it, you know, I guess, Hey, it's, it, it, it's fine. It does, um, it's possible that, like, as a book, it could have just stood on its own perhaps, um, without having to contextualize it in a burnout and stress time. But that's, you know, that's what Big Self does. We are, um, you know, providing coaching and facilitations for when you're in burnout and stress, that's, a lot of times it's in those crisis crucible moments that we reach out. We recognize the limitations of our ego, like you were saying. Uh, and we are like, I, I think I'm ready for the second mountain, or I realize this isn't completely working. Um, or maybe even in our naivete, we're like, fix me coach and put me back in, you know, to the same exact grind and make me better.

Steph Barron Hall: 50:08

Yeah. Yeah. And I really, I mean, I, I know that you're saying that maybe it didn't need those first sections, but I really liked the way that you framed it. And what I kind of took away from the book is it's very, um, like resource heavy, like, or, um, Rich. Maybe that's a better word for it. Right? Like it has a lot of, um, like I can tell, I'm like, oh wow. You've read like a huge stack of books in researching for this one, you know? Um,

Chad Prevost: 50:41

Yeah, thanks. I mean, well, and I felt like that was kind of required, right? If, if like the, um, you know, just like was just beginning to read and learn about the Enneagram in 2019 and what, what, what's the audacity of this dude trying to write a book on it, uh, in 2022? Um, so yeah, I was like leaning, leaning on the rich resources, the, the rich standing on the gr, the shoulders of, uh, the, some of the giant contributors who have been bringing the Enneagram through a couple of generations now.

Steph Barron Hall: 51:19

Yeah. And I'm curious, what do you hope that people take away from the book as they're, they read it and they're like walking away. They're like, okay, how do I apply this? What do you want them to, to take away? I.

Chad Prevost: 51:33

Well, you know, I want it to be like use, I want it to be of use, but I, um, and while I want it to be super informative and helpful and grounded, Uh, I also want it to be, it's not overly theoretical. It is meant to be practical. It's meant to give information to raise self-awareness so that you can't put the genie back in the bottle. You know, once you, uh, have learned some things about your type and yourself, and I, I hope it helps people to be able to identify themselves in the wild, so to speak. If they don't know their type, you don't necessarily have to take a test. Maybe you re you, you are like, oh, oh, you know, one of these 20,'cause it's not a lot of books do is, you know, cover the subtypes types. So that's what I was trying to bring. I was like, yeah, I mean, not, not many do, uh, or do it in with much depth.

Steph Barron Hall: 52:33

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I really appreciate that as well because, you know, we point regularly to Beatrice Chestnut's work. Um, but when you look at her specific interpretation of the subtypes, yeah, you're not seeing it in a lot of work.

Chad Prevost: 52:49

And I am so glad that she decided to shine more of a light on that.'cause I remember her kind of telling the story of like the first time, I think she said she came across or she was at a lecture of neuro hos. He wasn't talking about the subtypes. And then like he had gone to South America and he was doing some tour tours in Europe. And then when he comes back in like the early two thousands, he's really teaching on the subtypes. And so she was right there, um, as a firsthand witness to what was like really a contribution to the field.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:27

And when you find people who know the subtypes, I think you're finding, um, a lot more nuance. Right? Or you're teaching that you're, you're bringing that into your coaching because you can coach somebody

Chad Prevost: 53:40

I.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:42

like in the opposite direction, depending on their subtype, even on the same type.

Chad Prevost: 53:46

Yeah. And yeah, and there's just, I think the biggest difference is, um, with, as the famous example with sixes, how different they are subtype by subtype and how many, um, sexual sixes really do appear to be aids. Um, even after like quite a lot of self-studying investigation, because some, some people I've seen, they're like, sometimes I think I'm an eight and sometimes I really do think I'm a sexual sex, you know? Uh, and also fours, because of the intensity of those emotions, they're, they're quite, quite different. Um, between the social, sexual and self-preservation. Do you find that, I mean, are there any that are just strikingly different, um, subtype by subtype besides the fours and the sixes?

Steph Barron Hall: 54:35

Um, I mean, I think they all kind of are in a sense. I, I think for three. The biggest one that's really different is the sexual three. Um, to

Chad Prevost: 54:47

I thought you were gonna say the, the, the self-preservation three.

Steph Barron Hall: 54:51

most threes that I meet are self-preservation threes.

Chad Prevost: 54:54

Oh.

Steph Barron Hall: 54:55

And I think what's really different about the sexual three is like making it your job to be the perfect partner or to process things for your partner or like to supply your partner with all the help and like everything that they need. Um, and for me it's been a real challenge because I'm like, I want to put somebody else on the stage and I keep, I keep doing this thing where I try to get somebody to come alongside me and then I just shove them into the spotlight. Um, like.

Chad Prevost: 55:31

huh.

Steph Barron Hall: 55:32

It's not really helpful and it's, it's not good for me and it's also not good for them because it's my vision that I'm trying to force them into. Right. That's where the three part comes in of like being like, oh, I know what's best here. I'm gonna, I'm gonna finagle this, you know? Um, and thinking all of that, or like thinking I can just, if, you know, my spouse is an extension of me, I can just co-opt his time. If he's not, he's not doing anything. So now he works for me. You know, like, uh, so that kind of thing of, of having a, a challenging time with that. But I, that could be just because I don't really see the sexual three represented very often.

Chad Prevost: 56:11

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:13

Um, b says that the sexual nine and the sexual three are the two subtypes that know themselves the least.

Chad Prevost: 56:19

Oh, well, I was gonna say, it sounds like what you're describing does sound like a lot like the sexual nine and the merging,

Steph Barron Hall: 56:26

Mm-hmm.

Chad Prevost: 56:27

but you're doing it in this way of like, let me, let me help you. Right. And like

Steph Barron Hall: 56:33

Yeah. Like what, what came up after realizing I was a sexual three and then going to the retreat was like realizing like, oh, I never, like, my husband was not that interested in the Enneagram. Um, and I tried really hard to help him figure out his, his type, and then he settled on one and then it, it seemed like it fit. And, um, I tried so hard. I would always send him like, here's something about this topic that you were talking about yesterday, or Here's something about this topic. Or, um, you know, here's how the type shows up in this way, et cetera. And I, I would just do that. And like after the retreat I was like, I am not doing this anymore. Right. Not in like a mean way, but in a way of like, this is one of the ways that I am putting so much focus on you and like not really dealing with my own stuff.

Chad Prevost: 57:25

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:26

yeah.

Chad Prevost: 57:26

Okay. Um, so he also is a sexual four though. Turns out. What? What does he do?

Steph Barron Hall: 57:33

he's very thinking about like the deep things all the time. Like when, we were talking about his type one time and I said, what do you think is your relationship to your emotions? And he's like, well, I don't really know what you mean by that. I was like, well, like, do you feel your feelings? He's like, well, are you talking about like depth, breadth, like, variety, complexity? I was like, uh, I was like, I don't know how, I didn't know you're a four.

Chad Prevost: 58:00

Right. Yeah. And it's like sometimes I think with, um, any kind of type and why it can be hard for us to sometimes know ourselves is the way that we're like fish and water swimming in it. Yeah. I mean, there, here, here I was, I mean, before I really, I had taken Myers Briggs many times, strength Finders and um, here I was like a creative writing PhD in poetry. And I didn't think that I was more in my feelings than in my head. I thought that I was, I was like, no, I'm really analytical. And, and then I began like a fish and wa you know, it's like I began to see all the ways in which I am incredibly emotional and relational. Uh, and I had just been really blind to a fundamental way that I am.

Steph Barron Hall: 58:52

yeah. And I think that that's the beauty of the Enneagram.'cause it helps you see that like, I think some people might argue that it help, it, it makes you think you are that way, but I really see it as like, it helps you reveal the truth of that.

Chad Prevost: 59:08

Oh yeah. No, it's not. I'm, I'm not becoming the description

Steph Barron Hall: 59:13

Yeah. If only, if only,'cause then we'd all just like read a different description, be like, I am this now.

Chad Prevost: 59:19

Right. No, it's, yeah. And everybody would wanna be sunny sunnyside up sevens, right. And, and,

Steph Barron Hall: 59:25

Yeah.

Chad Prevost: 59:26

well, maybe not, maybe three threes and sevens. I think a lot of people naturally want to

Steph Barron Hall: 59:30

Maybe. Yeah. I, I find on, on a lot of the time people really don't like threes, so

Chad Prevost: 59:38

well, they're just jealous of all the success.

Steph Barron Hall: 59:41

Apparently, I guess. Um, okay. I have a couple more questions I, I really am curious about with your book. What do you know now that you didn't know before? Like, how has it changed your thought process? About stress burnout, the Enneagram.

Chad Prevost: 1:00:01

kind of knew a lot of it, um, before I, before I began writing it. So it was, I felt enough that I knew it well enough. I learned, um, a little bit more about, certainly about the history of burnout. That was, that was, you know, I learned, um, about how the phrase was coined and who the researchers were. And I found one, particularly one surprising connection, um, is that, Uh, let's see, in, in both New York with, um, fre Berger, and he, he was the one who first coined the term in like 1974, I believe. But he was, they were using it in the very, very early seventies. And at the same time across the country in California, Christina Maslo, um, the wife of the famous Philip Zimbardo of the, the Stanford, um, prison experiment. Um, she was doing burnout research at the same time. I don't think they knew each other. Were doing that work. And then here's the connection, right, is at the same time, right in 1971 in Berkeley, um, Claudio Naranjo. Is they're introducing teaching the Enneagram for the first time. So there's this, these interesting confluence of, um, events, this ripe rich time of, of like turbulence in cultural turbulence. We were still in the Vietnam War. Uh, we we're beginning to, like, people are beginning to burn, like burn out. And often in these helping professions where you can endlessly give and, and then at the same time, The Enneagram comes to us. Um, I just found some of those connections quite, quite surprising. So, um, but I, I will say one of the things I was learning as I was writing about fours and I was writing my, you know, and the pages were kind of getting the page, the word count was getting longer for four than it was for the other numbers. And I'm like, Chad, don't do that for two reasons. First of all, like, you're, you're, you're being a four by using more words to be understood. You know, while you're saying that you think fours are kind of misunderstood. So I just thought that was kind of, um, kind of funny. Uh, and so I'd also, I didn't take out a whole lot though. What I made sure to do was use similar amounts of word counts for all of the different sections for each

Steph Barron Hall: 1:02:50

Yeah.

Chad Prevost: 1:02:51

cause they're all equal.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:02:53

I mean, yeah, I, I like my process. I had a chart and it had each section. It was like this many words, you know,

Chad Prevost: 1:03:02

Yes. Right.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:03:03

but it's hard. It's hard to do

Chad Prevost: 1:03:06

It kind of can be, you know, and eight's like, they, they don't even, they don't even wanna use a lot of

Steph Barron Hall: 1:03:11

Right.

Chad Prevost: 1:03:13

so, so maybe they shouldn't, I don't know. Um, but yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:03:19

I think that the thing I've noticed with burnout is it's become really like this thing we talk about a lot lately. Um, so it can be easy to think, oh, this is like a recent thing. But it's interesting to hear that research came from the early seventies.

Chad Prevost: 1:03:34

Yeah, when that, you know, um, yeah, it's, it's, um, I also, I guess, I guess in terms of the Enneagram literature and, um, I, I recognize that some, um, different practitioners I've, I learned this was part of the experience of researching it and, um, want to use different terms for each of their, I guess kind of to make their own contribution in a more original way. But, um, I do agree with iRANO and, and I. Pious and Beatrice Chestnut on this point of, if we all begin using different terminology, it just kind of, it's almost like a tower of Babel, Babel. Um, it it, even if we find maybe other more slightly refined ways of saying some of these things, it's probably better to keep using the language that Neuro Ho introduced in, in Zo. So, um, I tried to, tried to do that. Um, yeah, I think so. Yeah. Just to be consistent with the terms that we're using.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:04:44

I appreciate that. And I agree even, even if some of the terms like passion. Need explanation. Right. Um, I, I think it's useful to, to have the same terms. Um, well, before we wrap up, uh, I have a couple questions that I always ask everyone.

Chad Prevost: 1:05:01

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:05:02

is, tell me about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year.

Chad Prevost: 1:05:07

Yeah. Um, and that is in some ways, um, a bit of a hard question in some ways, an easy one. But, uh, I,'cause I have to do a lot of reading, uh, or I get to do a lot of reading of, um, really terrific books, especially, um, to have, to host people on the, um, the Big Self Show podcast. Uh, you know, like I just read Ed Bacon's Eight Habits of Love and just a beautiful, marvelous book. So read so many great books. But the one that I just finished, um, that I read in depth, um, and very slowly and carefully is, was Facets of Unity by Age Almas. And this, this is one, um, I just read it this summer. That was sort of like reading in search of the miraculous. It was like, it's one of those books. It's so, it's um, it's so rich, it's so abstract and there's such fine sometimes subtle points in these ideas of the holy ideas in our fixations that you, if you're really reading it and understanding it, it's just a few pages a day. But, um, it's so helpful and I was so surprised'cause I thought all of the, the fixations and the holy ideas were just kind of gonna be information and that's going on in our head. And turns out they're just these nuanced, deep spiritual truths. And I'm so impressed with, um, how much knowledge he, he has about these things. And I mean, this is from published in 1998, um, I believe and. Let's see. Oh, and here was like a real eyeopener about the holy ideas. And I don't know if, if, if you, um, feel this way too or how familiar you are with it all, but like I was, you know, when it comes to the passions, really do feel like, yep, Envy's, that's, that's my flavor and that's what I'm leading with. And while I know we can kind of have a little bit of all of them, it doesn't really as much feel like I need to deeply understand all the passions because I'm, I have them all so much, it's mo, but with these holy ideas, it doesn't feel, it does feel like for, you know, like learn them all. Oh, because they are all just spirit. They're subtle differences. They're spiritual truths. They're not as particular to your type. So yeah, for the holy idea of holy origin, sure, that is very, very useful for the four. But so are so many of the holy truth, holy work, holy freedom. Um, the, the stuff for the sevens, the holy work, which leads to this, um, the, the idea of the unfolding to be present and, and, and experience the just constant unfolding, like watching clouds, that really spoke to me. Um, so the facets of Unity, the Enneagram of Holy Ideas by, ah, Almas, um, whose first name is Hamid, right? Um, that, that's a great book, challenging good

Steph Barron Hall: 1:08:35

Agreed. I mean, I've been reading it and I'm like, like you said, couple of pages at a time. This one, I did start with type three'cause I was like, I need a, an urgent, like, you know, uh, intervention here. And I, I start, I was like, it blew my mind. Yeah.

Chad Prevost: 1:08:52

Yeah. Alright.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:08:54

Okay. Love that. So finally, what is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Chad Prevost: 1:09:01

Oh, a piece of advice that has really stuck with me. Um, I, I guess I'll just go back to what Janina said about keeping an eye out on my idealizations. Once I began, I guess we could ex extrapolate that idea, um, of like, Besides, so she was like, Hey, look out for all these different ways that you're constantly idealizing. And then, and, you know, and bring it down to like, what is reality? But actually as a principle in, um, in any given thing, whether you're trying to spot, you know, your passions, activity, or whether you're trying to look for, it's like the, when you do make it your a point or an intention to look for something, um, you do begin to see it so much more, right? It's like learning a word for the first time and you're like, you're seeing the word all over the place all the time. Oh, Shelly told me the word for this. It's called the reticular activating. System, the reticular, that's a great word for it. It's like once you start, you know, you, or it's like a car commercial. You see a car that you like, suddenly you're seeing the car everywhere. It's similar with this work, right? If we are looking for, um, looking at, that's a good piece of advice.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:10:22

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I think that's where the Enneagram can really uncover our blind spots because you're like, oh, hmm. Never thought of it that way. Oh, now I see it everywhere. Oh boy. And then, and then you, you have a lot to work on. Congratulations.

Chad Prevost: 1:10:38

Right? And that's, and it is helpful with being iRANO saying, these are the different levels of your growth and the, the very first, maybe the second little level is just spotting your, your passion in action. Just spotting it, identifying it. Observing it. Right. You don't have to do anything about it, but just see, there it is, you know?

Steph Barron Hall: 1:10:58

growth. Yeah. Um, okay. Well, where can people find you? Tell me all about your book again, which I'll link in the show notes podcast, everything

Chad Prevost: 1:11:08

Uh, yeah, just Google, no, Google, Chad Prevost. Uh, no. It's, uh, we, I think the best play big self school.com. We are our, our podcast, uh, is, uh, the big Self show and we have a couple of episodes every week. One with the guest, one with just micro episode with Shelly and I, and, uh, yeah, just, you know, it's been a delight. Thanks for having me on here, Steph. Um, of course you've been on the Big Self show before. We'd love to have you return at some point. Um, not too far, because actually what we're gonna do for, so we're coming, we got another couple of months of season five to go, um, with the kind of what we've been doing. It's been a fun, fun season. Next season, uh, we are going to try to have an expert of each of the 27 subtypes. We're gonna do a whole episode, 27 episodes with each of. And so maybe you could be representing, um, the 1, 2, 1 threes.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:12:06

that'd be so fun. I'd love to do it. And I love your podcast, so I always recommend it. Um, so great. Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on the show and I hope everyone will check out your book.

Chad Prevost: 1:12:18

It's been a real delight. Thank you so much for having me on, and, uh, let me know what I can do to support you and, um, all that you're doing as well.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:12:27

Of course. Thanks so much. Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify