Q&A: Relationships, Enneagram Type Compatibility, and a Research-Backed Method for Improving Your Relationship

Steph Barron Hall: 1:36

Hello and welcome back to Enneagram in Real Life, where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm Steph Barron Hall,

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 1:44

And I'm Heidi Alanise Crits.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:46

and today we're doing a q and a episode.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 1:49

Yeah. So we get questions on Instagram all the time, and we thought we'd cover a few of them. And today's topic, which I really am excited about, will be relationships. Um, before that, before we get into it, um, Steph, how have you seen your type three show up this week?

Steph Barron Hall: 2:08

Whew. Um, so many ways, but I think one that that was kind of interesting is, um, so I've, I've been working with this therapist for a few months now and, um, he, he's familiar with the Enneagram. Like we kind of chatted about that a bit. Um, but it's not like a main thing that we talk about, and I. I'm kind of weird. I like don't, like I talk about the insights from the Enneagram and therapy, but I am not like, and this means blah, blah, blah about me mostly because I spend a lot of my life discussing the Enneagram and I'm like, I don't wanna talk about it when I go in therapy. But, um, I mean, he's caught on, you know, he's definitely caught on. Um, so it was interesting because we have been working through this, like making up this emotional statement, um, or like a emotional statement of truth, something like that. I can't re remember the exact phrase for it. But, um, it starts with by default and like, basically we crafted this thing that like is happening, like this tape that's happening in my mind all the time. So by default, you know, fill in the blank. Like, it's not okay for me to be this way, so I must do this in order to gain, you know, approval or affection or success or whatever it is. So we're like crafting these different ones. And, and there's one overarching one that I've been working toward and I just laughed because I was like, oh, this is just like, we're just describing the Enneagram three. Like, by default this is what I think. Like, or by default, this is the, the tape that's playing. And so it's just so funny to me because, it's the same stuff that comes up, you know, like we're gonna talk about this a little bit later too, but like, over-indexing on what other people think about me or, self deceit, like those sorts of things. Come up in therapy like every single week. And so it's just so funny how our Enneagram types are like so deeply embedded and even when we're trying not to like focus on it, we're, we're still there.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 4:20

Yeah. It's

Steph Barron Hall: 4:21

It's still the focus. Yeah.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 4:22

Yeah, yeah. That's so cool. Are these like statements something that you do daily or like, is that a, a, like how do you practice that?

Steph Barron Hall: 4:32

So, um, basically it was like coming up with this statement to help me understand and like really observe what was happening, happening for me, um, in the background. Because I would get to a point and I'd be like, Ugh, I can't understand why I'm not fixing this or doing X, y, or Z or like focusing the way that I need to. And then bringing up that statement is helpful because it's like, oh. It's because this thing that I'm doing now is really something that I'm doing for my own wellbeing. And as a three in a lot of ways, I internalize this message of like, everything I do has to be for somebody else and I have to do what others expect of me. Right? So like it's really observing that and just bringing it to mind more so that I can say, okay, well little, little stuff. I'm an adult now and I can choose what I'm gonna do. You know? Um, so it's kind of bringing in that ifs parts work as well as, um, just really observing and like noticing the stories that I'm telling myself.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 5:38

yeah. I love that. That's really cool.

Steph Barron Hall: 5:40

Yeah, it's helpful. It's just interesting. I'm like, let me get away from this type three thinking, and I just, you know, here we are.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 5:47

I know the frustration. I get it. I get it.

Steph Barron Hall: 5:50

Yeah. So what about you? How did you see your type four show up this week?

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 5:54

Yes. So this didn't actually happen this week, but I thought about it this week and I was like, oh my gosh, I cannot believe this happened. Um, yeah, so I just, this happened when I had just graduated college and I just think this story just shows like how much for is kind of long for that connection and that relationship. Um, But yeah, I just got outta college and so I already kind of felt like disconnected. I'm not really seeing the groups that I had at that time, um, during that time period. And someone from one of these groups like reached out to me and they were like, Hey, Heidi, like I, I'm really bad at like, keeping up with, you know, people. So, um, I just wanted to make sure I sent a message and connect, I, what are you doing? What's going on in your life? Like, I'd love to share what's going on in my life. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is an email. I was like, that is the coolest thing, the sweetest thing. I was like, I need to be sending like emails to other friends, reach out cuz this is the coolest thing. It made me feel just so loved. Then they were like, at the end of the email, they're like, yeah, just make, I wanna make sure I have your like, contact information so that like I can reach out to you. And I was like, yes girl, I will get that to you. Like, here it is. Oh so bad. And then, um, The next thing that she followed up with was like, that is so cool. Like, she did acknowledge kind of what I was, presenting to her and then basically just said, okay, I'm going on this missions trip, here's how you can support me. And I was like, ah, oh my gosh. And I, I just thought little, like looking back, like so naive, but I just couldn't even get myself to respond and say no, just like, not at this time, which I have no problem doing, but I was just so disappointed I just couldn't, you know. But anyways, I just thought that was so crazy, like, looking back at, you know, that time.

Steph Barron Hall: 7:45

Yeah. And it's like, oh, she reached out to me. Like it's specific, like I feel seen, I'm feeling like I can like pour my heart out to this person. And then it's like, oh no, you're, yeah,

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 7:56

It was so bad.

Steph Barron Hall: 7:57

you're like, I major overshared.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 7:59

I did, girl. Okay. What's worse is that when I thought about it, I went and looked at the email. Oh, so embarrassing. I, it was a, like, paragraph, paragraph, paragraph, like long email. So, anyways, but it's, it's just funny to think about like, like looking back, but Oh gosh. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 8:17

but also like that's embarrassing for her. Like she was using relational collateral to like, like extract money from you. Like that sucks.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 8:28

It did. It did. But

Steph Barron Hall: 8:30

And like look at you being so genuine.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 8:33

You, I, ooh, that was, that was like, Heidi, just like see other things that are happening here, you know, so it was just like a good, it was a good lesson. But yeah. No, I, I think she's great. Um, but yeah. Really funny.

Steph Barron Hall: 8:47

That's so funny. I love it.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 8:49

So yeah, we also talk about the idea of the week and did you wanna share, I know you're gonna share a little bit of something, later, but did you wanna talk about that?

Steph Barron Hall: 8:59

I have some thoughts, but I'm gonna keep it for the end for our new segment, which will be in our q and a episodes called Steph Study Hall, in which I talk about a paper that I've read recently and we discuss it and I tell you about the findings and everything.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 9:15

Yeah, I'm really

Steph Barron Hall: 9:15

So I'll save mine. What about yours? What's your idea of the week?

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 9:20

Yeah. So, um, this was just something that I needed to hear a little bit of encouragement. I was meeting with a mentor friend and she's so great. I was, Actually kind of just venting about, a situation that I was just feeling some shame and guilt around, or a decision that I decided to make. And, um, she so graciously like, reminded me. She was like, Heidi, like there are some things that like warrant, like guilt and shame, but you have to just check yourself. Like, does this situation, is it justified with guilt and shame? And, and I realize it wasn't. And that was really, really helpful. And yeah, I think it's just also a really great reminder that going through things with a friend and community is really helpful because then you can see outside of your perspective and just get that support because this situation, it is tough. And she's like reassuring me that she's like, I'm right there with you, the whole step of the way. And it's just really cool and it's, it's. To me or to the outside, maybe it's not even a major situation. Like, I think just for me, it might just be heavier. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I just thought that was a really cool idea that I just was really encouraged by,

Steph Barron Hall: 10:41

like actually acknowledging, okay, there's guilt and shame happening, and is that warranted, essentially? Yeah.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 10:50

Yeah, and then I felt I could let that go easier because again, I was like, in this situation I'm doing, I am doing everything that I can to make sure that, you know, it's all good and, and doing the best for, you know, everything involved. And so, yeah. Yeah, I felt really, really encouraged coming outta that conversation.

Steph Barron Hall: 11:11

Good.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 11:12

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 11:12

I'm so glad.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 11:13

Yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 11:14

Okay, cool. Thanks for sharing that. I, I'm sure that will be helpful. Um, all right, let's dive into our q and a. So starting today with the most common question that we get asked, like all the time, um, which is, are certain Enneagram types more compatible than others? Or, I'm type blank, who should I date? So while certain type pairings might be more common than others, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are the only pairings that can work. So in reality, any pairing can work if both individuals are willing to show up and put in the effort. And I know in other systems, like for example, if, if you're into astrology, there are a lot of ways that that type of compatibility has been used. Um, but I think that it's more useful to actually look at the individual person that you are considering becoming in a relationship with. So, um, some individual people might be like, oh, I don't like people of this type. And you just notice time after time you're like, I end up not getting along with people of this type. That's fine. That can happen. But that doesn't necessarily mean that those types are incompatible. On the whole. And so I think it's worth thinking about that like relationship success can be determined more by how willing and open and curious you and your partner both are. Um, and like desiring that sense of lifelong discovery, um, like self-discovery and like being curious about the other person. Um, like those sorts of things matter a lot more. So I think it's worth noting why people ask this question. And so I think one of the reasons is because we wanna make sure our relationship is gonna work. Like we wanna know, like if I invest in this person, um, it's gonna work out well. And so what ends up happening though is we end up outsourcing a lot of what we like, or what we want or need to assist system. I kind of have similar feelings about like when people say, what job should I have by Enneagram type like, um, You need to go inside and say, okay, what do I like? What do I need? What do I want? A relationship? What are my non-negotiables? Um, what boundaries do I need here? Like, what sorts of support or, or love or attention are gonna work best for me? Um, so getting more in touch with what you actually need can be a lot more helpful in understanding, um, that I, so I think that's really, really helpful to notice. So yes, I'm saying do more inner work than like looking at an Enneagram, I don't know, compatibility chart or something. Um, but I also think when we think about wanting a sure thing, we're kind of thinking about compatibility in this really fixed way. And I'm gonna talk later about this, um, psychologist named Eli Finkle, but this psychologist has written a lot and, and research, done a lot of research around relationships and marriage in particular, which again, is what we're gonna be talking about at the end of the episode. Um, but I heard him on the podcast, hidden Brain, which, and I'll link that episode in the show notes. But he said this really great thing, which is that compatibility is built. So it's like something that you can grow over time. So there's often this message or like this narrative of like, we are or we're not compatible, compatible, but like, I really like this idea of you can grow to become more compatible. Um, because I also think a lot of the time when people become unhappy in their relationship, um, it's because they've become. Incompatible over time. Not that they started that way, but like they have different interests and they spend less time together, those sorts of things. I'm not saying it's always bad to end a relationship, sometimes it's just run its course and that's totally fine too. Um, but if you want to keep having a good relationship, you have to like cultivate a sense of attraction and a sense of compatibility with your partner. and I, I mean, I like, I don't think that I'm the world expert on relationships by any means, but it's just something I think about a lot when we think about, you know, how do we get into relationships and how can we help them to grow? And, um, I think that investing the time and energy into it, um, from both parties, that's really important. Um, those are the things that, that make it grow and make it more compatible in the long run. Um, so not by Enneagram type, but um, by a lot of these other factors and investment.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 15:59

Yeah. Oh, I, I totally agree and I think. Just to emphasize what you said, um, I think some types can be, you know, drawn to each other based off, you know, what they value. And like I've seen a lot of business partnerships, of threes and eights. Um, I also see a lot of four and five relationships and I think, because they kind of value the same things and like, I think they both love depth and I can see easy connections made this way as you know, like there's almost like an intolerance for shallow connection. Um, and in a general sense like fives are artists and they appreciate creativity and uniqueness. And fours value that too. But yeah, I think just reiterating what you said, like I think every type, when you bring like personality and ego into the mix, like that's where the work begins. And compatibility comes down to like the mutual commitment and dedication to making the relationship work. And uh, just like going off of the example of like the four and five, like if the four is a bit like careless or like aggressive or non-receptive to the five, there are parts of the five that will never open up. cuz that's on their terms. And if the five is protecting themselves, then they may seem standoffish to the fore and um, That's kind of like the cycle, you know what I mean? So, um, again, it's, I think overall, I think compatibility comes down to, you know, the interest in one another and like learning how the other operates, like on both ends and, keeping that curiosity going and, yeah, I thought that was really great what you said.

Steph Barron Hall: 17:31

Yeah. Yeah, I mean I definitely think that, you know, we saw a lot of couples split up during the pandemic,

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 17:39

Mm

Steph Barron Hall: 17:40

and I could see why, because if you're never going out and doing anything together,

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 17:44

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 17:45

it's really hard to, like, even in my marriage, we've had to be like, oh no. Like, let's you know, no exceptions. We're doing a date night

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 17:54

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 17:54

every Thursday and we'll do something. You know, because it's so easy to just be like, well, and especially cuz we both work from home, it's like, We could go a month without leaving the house, really like, other than to go to the grocery store, you know, so gotta get out there, gotta gotta be more social. So on that note, let's talk specifically about the five and six relationship. This is because we did get a question on Instagram about this type pairing in particular. And just if you wanna learn more about all the type pairings, we actually do have, um, blog posts for all 45 individual type pairings, um, are represented. So I can link those in the show notes too. But let's talk a little bit more about a five and six relationship. And you know, I think that Heidi, you're gonna be the best to talk to this because you. No. A five. Well, so let's hear more about that.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 18:51

Yeah. So I'll go ahead and just kind of cover like the overall description of a five and then a six. So, um, just kinda give that baseline. So for fives, like the central motivation of avarice is to hold onto what they have due to the early experience of not getting much from others or like, feeling neglected or, or feeling too intruded upon. So fives anticipate that. They won't get what they need. So in turn they reduce what they need and hold back giving to others. Um, I think in has said by giving the little they feel is theirs. They feel that they'll be left with nothing at all. Um, so five, share the same center of intelligence with sixes and sevens. So that's the mental center. Um, so five, see the World primarily through their thinking function and they are practical and data driven. They're most comfortable in the head space and sometimes feel inept when moving into like the heart or the gut space. for sixes. Sixes I wanna say can really vary between subtypes. So that's self, pre social, and then one-to-one. Subtype. So it may be hard to generalize when we talk about sixes in relationships or just like in general. So keep in mind that subtypes have a big role in describing sixes and their relationship dynamics. Uh, however, the underlying motivation of six is consistent regardless of the subtype, and that is through the passion of fear. And this relates to the need to constantly anticipate what will happen, to proactively find a way to feel safe. And this is also accompanied with the fixed idea that situations and life are not to be trusted and that they need to question and doubt things. Um, so that things end up going well. So specifically in a five to six relationship, I think. like, just talking about some of the strengths. I think if a six is in a close circle of a five, I think the five really appreciates the community value that sixes, um, bring. And they really appreciate the loyalty and warmth that they bring. The six is thoughtfulness, commitment and attentiveness. Like all help the five stay more connected and less isolated. fives are also very loyal and dedicated to the ones that they love. And they can bring a sense, a sense of stability and security that sixes can really lean into. The six can trust the fives careful research, um, their cautious approach and their willingness to think through difficult things and. Both being part of the mental center of intelligence. They share the core emotion of fear, but their different approaches bring a really good balance. So, um, did you wanna say anything else about, like, the strengths before we move on to the pitfalls? Steph

Steph Barron Hall: 21:31

Yeah, I think that they do work well together. I've actually seen this pairing quite a few times too. Um, and I do think the loyalty piece is huge and I think both sixes and fives really love. Predictability and stability. So they kind of offer that to each other. They like play off of each other in that way. Um, so I think it can be a great pairing. And I mean, being in the mental center, it's like you can kind of talk through stuff and I, I think that that can be really useful. And also the five can really be a grounding force for a six when they're like spinning out and being like, what if this, what if that, what if this And the five is like, alright, let's, you know, let's actually look at this objectively. And it can, it can be really useful.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 22:15

Oh, for sure. Yeah. And I mean, just to like tie off on that, um, um, as we head into like some of the challenges and pitfalls, I think there are ways that, That can be really helpful. But there are some ways that maybe can overwhelm the five. So for example, like it can feel really overwhelming to a five when a six brings their like, anticipating thoughts and worries, like especially all at once. especially at a time they aren't really expecting it or maybe, you know, if they feel pressure to take on some of the troubleshooting duties without notice. the five may also be measuring, um, an issue and seeing whether or not it's even worth the time to address it. And if they feel like there's a low possibility of the issue arising, they may feel the need to dis dismiss it. and so that can cause some tension on both ends. So the five should keep in mind, you know, that saying, oh, that probably won't happen. You know, but that's probably not the best way to go about it. and. It probably isn't really reassuring. And one of our teachers, iRANO, he mentions that, you know, if telling a six relax like that never goes well. So

Steph Barron Hall: 23:20

Does, does telling anyone to relax ever go well?

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 23:23

yeah, I, yeah, absolutely. So I think that's really helpful to keep in mind. And then also if the five isn't voicing, you know, any reassurances or is under communicating, I think that can, lead the six to feeling a bit, unsafe or, and not feelings secure. So, um, I think finding a way for the five to be able to communicate on their own time may be a really great place to start. And, um, this can look like scheduling a block of time in advance to discuss maybe like one topic or maybe hone in on one like situation. Um, and then also give time for the five to maybe come back and, and. Offer some more feedback and more thoughts once they've kind of ruminated on that. Um, and then also one last thing that, I figured would be helpful to note is that there are certain sixes who can make the other individual their authority in their relationship. Um, and so with a five that can feel like a lot of pressure. you know, so asking the five advice, like, okay, what would you do? Um, I think that may make the five feel like they're relying on them too much or maybe that that could put'em in a place of blame. And so I think it's really important for the five to reassure the six of their own authority and like their own power and, and really instill that courage into them. so yeah, that's, that's just a few things that come to mind. is there anything that you wanted to, talk about, cuz I think one thing that I do wanna talk about is intrusion with fives. Like for any relationship. I think it's really important to kind of, keep that in mind. But do, is there anything you wanted to touch base on?

Steph Barron Hall: 25:04

Yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's kind of the crux of the issue, right? Because I think withdrawal for a six is really, really challenging because sixes like to have that constant, it, it doesn't always have to be like, I think sometimes sixes don't even realize they're doing it, but it's like

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 25:21

sure.

Steph Barron Hall: 25:22

kind of sending out constant bids for connection or even just like checking in or trying to have a conversation and maintaining that kind of positive rapport. Or the six might start getting suspicious. So it takes a lot of work on the sixes end to be like, okay. They're withdrawing because they need that, and it's actually not about me, and I don't need to feel destabilized, but I think that that's incredibly difficult for a lot of five, six pairings, and they need to have O more open communication than they otherwise would around that topic. Okay.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 25:56

Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, so just touching, uh, again on like the intrusion. I think my question when I was kind of learning this, it's like, what does that really mean? Like, and, and how does that really affect the five? Um, so as we mentioned earlier, like fives constantly fear being depleted of time, energy and resources. So they're very sensitive for what feels like intrusion of their time, space and energy. Um, So what does this look like? this could look like, physical intrusion, like into their private space, like especially for self, pre, fives who do like retreat into their castle and, and need that space. this could also look like needing immediate answers to questions or expecting them to show emotion or react in real time. Um, I think that takes a lot of energy, also micromanaging them or telling them what to do, which can feel like asking too much of their. time or too much of them, um, especially like if you're asking them while they're trying to get it done, they have that already scheduled. It can just feel like an intrusion. also an intrusion of privacy. So like reading a private journal, asking too many personal questions back to back, um, and then

Steph Barron Hall: 27:12

Um, nobody should ever read anyone else's journal.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 27:15

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 27:16

saying, that's always an intrusion.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 27:19

You know, it's so funny, I No, absolutely right.

Steph Barron Hall: 27:22

Yeah.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 27:23

I, I read once a five say, if you read my journal, you are dead to me, in my mind, like dead to me. And I was like, yeah, that sounds about right. But I think that, yeah. Right. And I just think that. Oh yeah. Privacy is such a big thing for them, so, absolutely. And I know something else that can feel like intrusion, could be like an abrupt interruption of quiet. Um, I think a lot of fives talk about being really sensitive to loud noises or just like, like being in a crowded room like that can really feel like depleting, like that can make, I guess like their battery, like go down so much quicker. Um, and so like my husband, he has noise canceling headphones, um, and also earbuds and um, I think Irania one of our teachers, he mentioned that like when he goes to restaurants, he puts, you know, um, earplugs in. And that's actually a really great idea for my husband. Like, I think that'd be something to put into practice, yeah, when I, when I see my husband have his noise canceling headphones and he's cooking and he's kind of in his own world, I know that he would prefer not to be interrupted and have to take off his headphones and talk while he's in that mental space. so, um, yeah, funny story. If you want to see a five, just be furious. Tow their car. That is an absolute intrusion of their property, I think in their, like, in their minds. I think obviously like everyone hates when their car is towed too, but I just, that particularly I have seen. Um, so now we know where we shouldn't park, so that's really good. But yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 28:59

It's the worst. It really is.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 29:02

Um, but yeah. Is there anything that I'm missing with that or, or was that kind of clear?

Steph Barron Hall: 29:07

Yeah. I mean, I think that this is all very challenging for people who have kids, right? Like parenting and being a five, you know. And, and I've actually heard from some fives on that topic and just how they've kind of built more margin. Cuz I think fives are really focused on building margin in their lives so that they don't feel overwhelmed. Um, and so that can be really challenging. I think it's also worth noting that it's not always on the other partner to meet in the middle, right? So navigating like, okay, well maybe there are these times when I'm gonna be accommodating and like meet you in the middle and decide even though I kind of do wanna withdraw, like we're gonna have this time together. Um, I don't think it's bad for fifes withdrawal. I think that they need that, but I also think that part of the growth path for fives is learning how they can get energy from like, relationship. Um, and so I think that that's important cuz I, I always wanna be sensitive to that. I think in the past I've been accused of being, like putting all of the stuff on somebody else.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 30:18

yeah, a hundred percent. And that's actually really great to note that I probably should have mentioned. Um, I think, um, this was really helpful like as we were beginning like our growth path and really helping me to understand, even as you were saying, like it's not about really the other person when they withdraw. Like it's at at this time when we're, when, where we are in our growth journey. Like that's where that he kind of needs that space. And so it's really a about, we had to communicate on, um, when are we gonna, when do we have our time together and when do you have your time alone? I think that's. So important. And that I think was a big, um, shifter. so yeah, I, I a hundred percent agree with you. And, I think through that though, like through respecting his time, respecting his boundaries, he's opened up a lot more because he's realized like, oh, like I am being respected. I am being seen. And so that's also a way to kind of yeah. Open up communication a little bit more and, and allow him to find that energy from relationship. So a hundred percent. I, I totally agree. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 31:29

Yeah. I think that the reason I, I wanted to bring that up is because, um, well during like my coaching co course, um, like when I was teaching a group course, um, we talked a lot about the nine eight relationship

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 31:42

Mm.

Steph Barron Hall: 31:44

there is a lot to be said for how an eight can like, manage their own feelings differently or, or manage their, um, like. Big expressions of anger, but often that feels like passion or that feels like excitement or whatever else. And, and to recognize that and like take a pause. But I also think it's really important for nines, and we'll talk a little bit more about this, but like, and other types, nines and other types to recognize like, oh, I need to have some emotional boundaries where I'm not absorbing every single thing that they're feeling all the time. Um, and so like kind of figuring out where that line is. So I just think that's important to have a more, um, collaborative

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 32:29

for sure.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:31

approach. Um, which brings us to our next question. Um, and I know that you're taking a lot of this one too, but um, a lot of the questions that we receive are about specific type pairings, like three and four or two and seven. And one of the most important conflicts within these type pairings is. That some types we know are other referencing

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 32:59

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:59

and some are self-referencing and some are kind of mixed. So we're gonna go into all of that. And I just wanna mention up top that the, our sources for this were, um, the complete Enneagram by Beatrice Chestnut, as well as the program that Heidi and I have both taken. Uh, the Chestnut Pies Enneagram certification program, um, Enneagram Academy, I think. Um, and a blog from Truity, which we will put all the, the notes in this show notes as well. Um, but those are the sources, but let's dive into these a little bit more. I'd love to hear you explain them and then we can chat about them.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 33:38

Yeah, for sure. So, I mean, just as you mentioned, um, there's self-referencing, other referencing and a bit of mixed or both. so those who are self-referencing really focus on their own like internal experience and, uh, first, and they see, you know, how they're feeling and what they need. And so the types in this triad are type four, five, and seven. So just to break it down a bit, fours are constantly focused on how they're feeling and um, the distance of connection that they're having with others. And, this can. Lead to the four, getting stuck in their own world, um, and in a sense like forgetting or dismissing other people in that relationship. So, that just kind of shows that experience. fives, as we talked about earlier, are constantly referencing, referencing their energy levels and resources, um, as this may feel like a way to survive in, in that day. so it's like they wake up with so much energy and then they kind of plan their day around that. Um, sevens are constantly referencing their own needs and their wants and, they don't wanna get stuck in suffering. And so they plan their way out of that and, and really they take being happy into their own hands. and that's kind of just the. Basic view of the self-referencing types. So for the other referencing types, they direct their energy outwards, focusing on other people first and then adapting their inner experience to match. So these types are type two, type three and type nine. And for the heart types this can be seen as shape shifting. so twos they shapeshift based on other people's needs and feelings in order to be liked, especially if it's someone who they admire or wanna be close to. and they might even hedge their own opinions or sugarcoat things in order to maintain likeability. And threes reference what other people view as successful and in a more unconscious way, shape shift who they are to fit that description. And in doing this, they can lose touch of who they really are. and Steph, would you say that the type two would be a little bit more conscious in the, in the shape shifting, and then type three is, is more unconscious?

Steph Barron Hall: 35:55

Yeah, that's generally like how it's taught. Especially I've heard Beatrice say that, um, like, and even in typing interviews I often hear from twos like, yeah, I can kind of see when I'm doing it. And I think with threes, um, Just like, I mean the, the passion of self deceit, right? So it's like I am who other people believe that I am or I am, um, the image that I present to the world. And so it's very difficult to even see like, oh, I have created this entire self based on what I perceive that others think of me.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 36:32

Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, I thought that was really helpful. so in this group, two threes and nines, so with nines, um, nines reference other people's agendas and what others want in order to maintain peace and avoid conflict. so through this often merging with the other in the process, and again, our teacher iRANO, he mentions that sometimes he wouldn't even call it merging because that would mean like an equal effort on both parts. Um, but it's more like an, an envelopment of the nine, you know? but the nine can often forget themselves in relationships because, um, because of this So the remaining triad would be, you know, the types that are a bit mixed or, or kind of combined, so these types focus both on their inner world and their outer world. So for eights, they really focus on power and protecting the vulnerability of others through justice and sometimes even taking that into their own hands and assuring, you know, justice and situations of, unfairness. ones they have an inner sense of. Rules or guidelines that they often reference. Um, and then someones, they focus on reforming others based on those guidelines or rules. and then as we talked about earlier with sixes, sixes focus on potential issues that may arise in order to be prepared for them. And so they reference potential threats and then they can also project their fears onto the world around them. Is there anything else that you want to add for that or am I missing something?

Steph Barron Hall: 38:07

No, I mean, I think that's great. I, um, I think with that, that final section too, it's helpful to note that, um, sometimes what ends up happening is, like, how they respond is based on how they f. Feel internally, but it's dependent on what other people are doing.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 38:27

Hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:27

Um, so I think that that's part of the reason why it's mixed. Um, but like in terms of relationships, I think conflict can often arise as you can imagine. Like, okay, if you have a two and a seven, um, or a three and a four even where the four is like, why are you so focused on what other people think about you? Like that's not what matters here. And the three is like, why don't you care how you're showing up? Like, why don't you care how people perceive you? Um, like that can be attention, right? Because the four can say, well, I'm being honest, so anytime I'm being honest or authentic, that's kind.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 39:06

Mm.

Steph Barron Hall: 39:06

And the three can say, or maybe the two or the nine might say actually like, how you say something and how you use a specific tone or whatever. That matters and that can change, um, how, how somebody hears it and, and perceives it and stuff like that. So I think that that is just really important because we often kind of get, caught in these like relationships spirals where like, this is where I'm glad we have the Enneagram to understand that because you can kind of get caught in like one of those cycles of like saying, you're doing this, you're doing this. You know, and like kind of stepping back to see, oh, it kind of makes sense. Like everything makes sense in context. It kind of makes sense that I'm seeing this, this way and you're seeing it that way. Um, so let's kind of recalibrate and see where we're at. Um, when you were talking about, you know, fours, cause I think another aspect of the self-referencing for a four is, um, the tendency toward like introspection to the point of rumination. And that often is what we call like self-absorption with forests of just like navel gazing kind of, of like looking at that. Um, and what's really interesting is I read this book recently called Insight by Tasha Uric, and she talks about self-awareness and how a lot of the time we think self-awareness is just like looking at things internally. Um, but actually self-awareness is kind of recognizing, you know, how you're showing up and impacting others in the world. That's like a big part of it. And so the internal part matters and the external part matters, like how I'm, I'm experiencing myself internally and how other people are experiencing me. Both of those have to kind of be in line in order to be self-aware. So self-awareness equals I understand how I'm showing up in the world, how I am, how other people perceive me and somebody else. Who's not me, but like, knows me well, would agree on my own, like self-judgment or my own, like self-report essentially. Um, and so I think when we think of these categories, that's what we kind of miss sometimes is being able to be like, oh, I'm like way overdoing it on the internal stuff, which being self-referencing actually can be a really good thing, right? Because it can be like, well, I'm gonna go do this thing even if nobody else is, thinks it's a great idea for me. Um, or think they think, oh, that's too risky. Sometimes you can like create really awesome, like art or businesses or whatever. Like, because you're, you're willing to, to do that and like be yourself. Um, and then sometimes being other referencing. Can be helpful. I have a hard time seeing the upside of it, but, um, it can be helpful in the sense of, you know, I am able to understand how I impact other people and how they might feel, um, when I do X, Y, or Z. Um, and so when in Tasha Y's book, she, she really talks about the importance of both, and I think that's, that's really useful. Um, and especially reflection. But I think in the Enneagram community, um, well that's probably too broad. I think there are a lot of people who aren't very reflective, but, um, reflection can be helpful. But rumination, um, which means, like in this context, in this specific study she's referencing in this book, it's really, um, a reflection to the point where you're kind of obsessively thinking about how you're doing and what you're feeling and why and all that stuff. Um, that can actually have. A bad impact on your mental health and your relationships. So, um, yeah, I guess it's like more focusing on balance and, and seeing both.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 43:09

Yeah. Yeah. I love that perspective and I haven't heard that study, so that was really, really interesting. That's really cool.

Steph Barron Hall: 43:15

I feel like I should have something more to add, but I don't.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 43:17

No, that's great. Speaking of studies,

Steph Barron Hall: 43:20

Yeah,

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 43:21

move into our new segment, this Stephanie's study hall?

Steph Barron Hall: 43:26

sure. Okay. So, um, this paper is called a Brief Intervention to Promote Conflict Reappraisal Preserves Marital Quality Over Time. So, um, we're gonna talk a little bit more about what that means, but the authors are Elijah Finkel, Erica B Slaughter, Laura b Luci, Gregory M. Walton, and James J. Gross. And this was published, I think it was published in 2013, um, in the Association for Psychological Science Journal. Um, and so this is really just a report of this research that this team of authors did. So really what this study is about is like, are there things that we can do to improve the quality of our marriages? Um, so hypotheses were, um, marital quality will decline over time. Just like in general, um, this downward trend will be reduced, perhaps even eliminated among participants who experienced the reappraisal intervention in year two, which I'll describe in a minute. Um, this reduction of the downward trend in marital quality will be mediated by declining post intervention, conflict related distress and the reappraisal condition relative to the control condition. Okay. So basically what they did is they got 120 couples, uh, married couples, and I, I should mention that it's been addressed by this author, but also in other studies that the majority of of couples in marital studies are heterosexual. So that's the case for this study and the majority are white. They didn't actually, I don't think, give a racial, um, breakdown of that, but I think that that's worth noting because, um, that's like a big kind of skew in the data. But so, so. Take that with a grain of salt. But, um, they had 120 couples that were all in the Chicago metropolitan area, and they basically surveyed them on these six marital quality components. Um, and use these components to then score, you know, overarching what's the quote unquote, quality of the marriage. So these were the, um, the measurements that they used. So the first was satisfaction. Um, and then the participants would rate, um, their ag level of agreement with the statement. I feel satisfied with our relationship. Love. How much do you love your partner? Intimacy. How intimate is your relationship? Trust? How much do you trust your partner? Passion. How passionate is your relationship and commitment? I am committed to maintaining my relationship with my partner. So those were the six. Uh, components that they use to, to measure marital quality. So, um, then they did a longitudinal study over two years, and they basically had measurement points, which they called waves. So there's seven different ones. So at the very beginning, they basically kind of took these, all of these, um, components, measured everyone on all the components, and like basically scored, you know, the quality of the marriage score for everyone. They did a few other surveys. It's not really that important for, for what they ended up measuring. Um, so they would do these, that questionnaire and then they would ask like, tell us about, um, uh, conflict that you've had over the last four months. Um, and focus specifically on the behavior, not like the thoughts or the feelings about it, but just say, um, This is like what happened? And then they would measure the level of distress the couples felt based on that conflict. So they would, they would ask them about the conflict and then they would ask them like, I, to rate on a scale of one to seven, you know, how much do you agree with the statement? I am angry with my partner over this thing. So that's kind of like the model. So then, um, they had contact with the participants seven times. So wave one, wave two, wave three, wave four, wave five, wave six, wave seven. Over the first year, everyone got basically the same or exactly the same survey. So they would be asked about the marital quality indicators. They would be asked about, um, the conflict. Like they would be asked to just report on a conflict and then be asked to measure their distress over the conflict. So this is all making sense so far.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 48:20

Yeah. I'm totally

Steph Barron Hall: 48:21

Okay, so then, um, they randomly reassigned. In the second year they assigned two groups. So one group was the control and one was the experimental group. So the control, they just continued to get the same questionnaires that they'd gotten in year one for the experimental group. They got an intervention, which was a seven minute writing task. Okay. So seven minutes. And they did it three times, um, on those month markers. And basically all they would do is rewrite or like reappraise, it's called emotional reappraisal, the conflict. F from the perspective of a third party observer. Um, so this is kind of what they would do. These are like the prompts that they use. So think about the specific disagreement that you just wrote about having with your partner. Think about the perspective of a new neutral third party who wants the best for all involved and sees this from a neutral point of view. How might this person think about the dis disagreement? How might he or she find the good that came from it? So the second part of the prompt is some people find it helpful to take this third party perspective during the, their interactions with their romantic partner. However, almost everybody finds it challenging to take this perspective at all times in your relationship with your partner. What obstacles do you face in trying to take this third party perspective, especially when you're having a disagreement with your partner. Um, and then the third prompt was despite the obstacles to take, Despite the obstacles to taking a third party perspective, people can be successful in doing so over the next four months. Please try your best to take this third party perspective during interactions with your partner, especially during disagreements. How might you be most focused in taking this perspective in your interactions with your partner over the next four months? How might taking this perspective help you make the best of disagreements in your relationship? So basically they're saying take the perspective of, of a third party. So like kind of zoom out and observe what's happening in this conflict and rethink about it, right? And then asking the person to mentally like pre-plan how they are going to do that the next time they're in a disagreement. So like kind of planning ahead, kind of projecting like what are the obstacles that I might face? How can I make sure that I'm gonna do this? So on the month markers, For months 12, 16, and 20, they did the seven minute writing task. And then in between each of those months, so then months 14, 18, and 22, they got a reminder just saying like, Hey, remember this writing task, just, just keep this in mind, you know, kind of thing. And the people who were in the control group, they were not given this task, but during those inter um, between check-ins, they just got like a friendly check-in, like, Hey, hope you're doing well, type of thing.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 51:42

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 51:43

So everyone got a check-in, but the check-ins didn't all say the same thing. Um, any questions about the intervention?

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 51:52

No, I am taking notes, so I remember. I'm like, yes.

Steph Barron Hall: 51:57

Okay, so in the data, what they found is that, Overall marital quality does decline over time. Like they found a significant result there. And actually, um, you know, proved that that first hypothesis correct in that, um, they did see like a decline in the marital quality as related to those markers, the six components. However, though the control group continued on the same trajectory of decline over both years, the experimental group saw a significant change. And like on the graph, which I can actually, I'm gonna link the study so everyone can go look at the graph if you want, but like you see there's a decline and then you see the experimental group pretty much flatten out. Like there's still like a slight, um, negative lean to the, the line, but it pretty much evens out to where it's not necessarily going up. It's not necessarily getting better, but like, It's not getting worse. Right. Um, and that's a significant result. If you think about that, that concept of the, the marriage quality declining over time. Um, so I thought that was really interesting because the really cool thing about this study is that the intervention was 21 minutes over an entire year. That's all they did. Three times they were asked to do a seven minute writing task. Yes. They were given those prompts inter like intermittently, but they only did seven minutes of this, like once every four months. And it, it made a massive difference. so it's really about, Training or, or like building the skill of being able to reappraise what happened and like look at it from a different perspective. It's not even asking you to like take your partner's point of view, like perspective taking. We hear that a lot in communication circles. Um, it's just saying like, neutral, just be neutral. You don't have to see how they're seeing. Just be neutral and, and observe it that way. Um, and so I thought that was really cool because like yesterday I was talking with Brandon about this study and he was like, well, what's like the, the most negative, take you can get from it? And I was like, well, that every marriage basically, you know, 120 couples in this sample, is declining over time.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 54:29

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 54:29

And he's like, okay, well what's the most positive take? And it's like, it takes 21 minutes of focused attention on this one thing to make a significant impact in your relationship. It's like, Oh my gosh. You know, so, um, yeah, so I really liked the study. I thought it was great for this topic. Um, and I actually found it because I initially was thinking about talking about intra and interpersonal relationship, or intra and interpersonal communication, cuz that's a topic that I've, I've written some on. And I, um, this author also writes about that. But then I found this study.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 55:08

That's really fascinating and I love how like you said, only seven minutes is little. Just imagine like, yeah, I don't know, like if there was a consistent routine, like is it possible for an incline like, or an increase for that? That's really interesting.

Steph Barron Hall: 55:25

Mm. Yeah. like, and I think even if you do it once a month, or, I don't know, I feel like. You could get into that rumination space if you do it too, too often. But that was one of the, the kind of questions that they brought up in, um, the discussion as well was just that, um, you know, what if there could be an even better impact or would there be a plateau on the impact, um, if you increased the frequency of, of the intervention. So I thought it was pretty cool. Um, pretty interesting study and really helpful in thinking about conflict in particular because, um, it's a way to, to decrease the distress that you feel over conflicts that you have with your partner. And I think if you're kind of keeping that in mind, the next time you have conflict you're like, okay, wow, this is going sideways. Let me think about how a neutral observer would experience this. And then you can change the approach. Um, Or you might be like, you know what? It's not that big of a deal. Um, or, or whatever the case might be. So I, yeah, I thought that was really interesting.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 56:38

Yeah. Or like even what you were saying, like I feel like it would make space for then going into the problem solving and like the solutions and stuff like that. Um, just to have an objective perspective. Um, that's really fascinating. I love that.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:54

Yeah. Great. I liked it too. So that was my idea of the week as well. Um, and like I mentioned, I'll, I'll put all the sources in the show notes as well as the podcast with this author on Hidden Brain. Um, and he also references some research by, um, psychologist Ethan Cross, who wrote the book Chatter. So if you haven't read Chatter, I think that's a really great one, especially if you have a lot of internal self-talk. Um, cuz that does also impact our relationships. Um, and then this author, Eli Finkel has a book called the All or Nothing Marriage, I believe is what it's called. Um, so we can link that up too.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 57:37

Yeah, that's really exciting. I think that would be really useful for people to read. And you said it was chatter by, who was it?

Steph Barron Hall: 57:43

Ethan Cross.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 57:44

Cross. Okay. Fascinating.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:46

Cross with a K.

Heidi Alaniz Critz: 57:47

Oh, okay. Awesome.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:50

Cool. Well see Allall next time. Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify