The Healing Power of the Enneagram in Relationships as an Enneagram 7 with Jackie Brewster

1:37

Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in real life. A podcast that will help you go beyond any grand theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Baron hall, creator of nine types co on Instagram, author of the Enneagram in love, accredited Enneagram, professional, and ennea curious human, just like you be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram and your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now onto the show.

Steph: 2:08

Welcome back to Ngram, I r L. I'm Steph.

Heidi: 2:11

And I'm Heidi.

Steph: 2:12

And how are you doing today, Heidi?

Heidi: 2:14

I am doing well, working on my certification, with, you know, CP Engram, getting all that done. but yeah, it's going well. What about you?

Steph: 2:23

I'm doing well. I am planning for an event that I'm doing this week with, a corporate client. So, I have like a lot of planning to do and a lot of, stuff to do between now and then. So that's what I'm busy with. But I also just wanna highlight how much work this certification that we've done is like, I think we've might have talked about it before, but it's like, you're working on the case studies, right? So there's like, did you do eight or 10? I can't remember now.

Heidi: 2:50

I think we need to do 10 with a group, I believe. Um, but yeah,

Steph: 2:56

No. Yeah, I think you're right.

Heidi: 2:57

yeah,

Steph: 2:59

So

Heidi: 3:00

work,

Steph: 3:00

three intensives, like three, five day intensives, 10 K studies, three client. Like case studies. It's just a ton of work. I think that's something that I don't know if I fully realized, and I think a lot of people don't totally recognize like how intensive this engram program is. Um, not all of them are that way. It totally depends. But, um, yeah. Congratulations. You're almost there.

Heidi: 3:27

I know. Yeah, it's, I'm sure it's very satisfying when you complete, which you did, um, not too long ago. So, um, that really is exciting. But I'm curious, Steph, how did your type show up this week?

Steph: 3:40

Yeah. Well, I mean, now that you ask that question, I think I should highlight that. Gathering certifications. Is kind of a type three thing. Like I think I, I actually think it's, it's really an, example of the defense mechanism of identification, um, for type three, which is, um, in, in the way that type three s use it, it's very much a thing of like looking externally for something to buttress your sense of. your sense of self. Um, and so when I think of identification, actually I always think about Andy from the office and how he's like, I'm a Cornell alum. Like he, you know, like, and I think that sort of like worth by association thing can be an example of identification. Um, so anyway, just like a little fun fact that I'm thinking about. But. I guess that's a way that I've seen my type show up. What about you? Have you seen your type show up?

Heidi: 4:44

Yes. So I saw my type show up in the way that, um, something happened that was really exciting and my immediate response was to send a text to like this person or like this person just to explode in my excitement, you know? Um, honestly, without even thinking. Like I feel like I've done that. So often where it just doesn't make sense afterwards. And I'm just like, what did I even say? But, and I also like, I feel like to some people they might think or they might be confused as to why that's not necessarily like a positive thing, but as someone who is working to be more grounded and not swept up in like the intensity of my feelings, I think this is really helpful for me to notice in the moment. And I've been trying to like really allow myself to feel like, to feel. The excitement, feel it thoroughly, but like, let it pass through me and not like, just hold onto it, sit on it for a long time. Um, but then revisit it, you know, when I wanna share my thoughts with these same friends in a calmer way, you know? And sometimes like I ask myself, okay, do I still wanna like, share this with some people? And then sometimes I don't. Like, sometimes it's just like, yeah, like that was really exciting for me. Um, and I'll just share it with them when I see them. Like, you know what I mean? So, and, and also the same concept applies to like, Anger and frustration, uh, with my type as well. So just not being swept up in my feelings and like, you know, verbally gone crazy with like, even if it's text or with someone, uh, in person. But that's how I saw my type show up this week.

Steph: 6:18

Yeah. I mean, I was talking with the, uh, sexual four about this recently. Um, and they just kind of talked about how Even high highs can cause them to get dysregulated. Um, and it can really quickly turn into anger cuz they're like at this like, boom, like this, like really intense, like high level of just, I don't even know how to describe it. And so it can cause that spiraling. And so it kind of sounds like you're saying something a little bit similar.

Heidi: 6:48

Yeah, absolutely. And it's just, again, a way to manage all of the whirlwinds of emotions and, and things like that. Mm-hmm.

Steph: 7:00

Yeah. Okay. Cool. Um, well, what are you into this week?

Heidi: 7:04

Yeah. So I'm in my crochet era. Okay. Although, like,

Steph: 7:09

I love it.

Heidi: 7:10

although I did take a break, um, cuz when I first got back into it, um, since like childhood, like I, like barely like, you know, got into it. Like my mom taught me when I was younger, but, Like a, like last year, later in last year, I just decided to pick it up again and I taught myself, um, am a groomy, which is like the method of making crochet like stuffed animals and things like that. Like just for little like little fun things just to learn. Yeah. So that was really fun. But I took a break and I just wanted something just more simple and so I've been. Crocheting baby blankets for my friends, like everyone's having babies, so congratulations to them. And I am just enjoying making baby blankets. And even at night, like when I just need, I'm anxious, I need something to do with my hands without thinking like it's so helpful. So I'm enjoying that right now.

Steph: 8:02

I love it.

Heidi: 8:02

Yeah.

Steph: 8:03

That's so

Heidi: 8:03

Yeah. What about you? What are you into, what are you learning?

Steph: 8:08

Um, I feel like yours are always something you're doing like that. And mine is always like, well, I read this book. Um,

Heidi: 8:14

but I love it. It's a good balance.

Steph: 8:17

so I am rereading Dopamine Nation. I actually read it, I started it like a year ago maybe, or whenever it first came out, I'm not sure. Um, and then I finished it. Just like last month, but I realized, oh, I haven't actually, I don't remember the first part of it, like the first few chapters. So I, I restarted it. so Dopamine Nation by Anna Lemke and Anna, or Anna, I'm actually not sure. She is a psychiatrist and I think, I believe she's at Stanford University. Um, and she talks about her experience of, Working with different people through these different types of addictions that they have. and like then, you know, even talking about the pleasure, pain, balance and like all of the, the brain science behind that and talking a lot about things like cold showers, how that's a way to introduce more pain, but it can. cause dopamine spikes or like a, like a longer, dopamine increase later in the day. So you end up having this like better mood and, and like happier, more fulfilled, et cetera. anyway, so I've been listening to that. I really like it. I, I like her perspective. I love that she brings in the clinical aspect of it where she has, You know, conversations with her patients or, um, she has like her own experience with, you know, feeling a little bit addicted to certain things. Um, and so yeah, I've really been enjoying that. Um, and I just think that addiction, cause I know I just recently talked about it, um, a different book I was reading, but it's something that. We have so much stigma toward, and because of the stigma, it's really hard for us to see when we have these tendencies where we're like really relying on a process or a substance or whatever, f to feel whole, to feel happy, to feel anything at all basically. And so I have just been loving learning more about the brain science of that and kind of taking that different perspective.

Heidi: 10:22

That's so fascinating. It almost reminds me of, um, I've been hearing a lot more about like the cold plunge. Have you? Yeah. So I wonder if they talk about that too, but that just reminded me of like having the cold shower and how you can implement that in like your daily routine. And that's so cool. I love that.

Steph: 10:39

Yeah, there are some really interesting studies about that. Um, I'm not like a neuroscientist by any stretch of the imagination, but there are some really smart people talking about that, I think it's really useful because we really like have, like I said, the, the stigma and, and like it causes us to have blind spots, um, around some of our behaviors that are making us worse and not better. And we think that we need more of. and joy and everything, and sometimes it's actually like learning to balance it out. So, um, that's what I'm learning personally from my own life and I'm into that, that book right now. Definitely recommend it if you are interested in sciencey things or in, you know, having a, a different set point for like how you feel on a day-to-day basis in terms of mood. It's a really great, great read.

Heidi: 11:29

Love that.

Steph: 11:31

Okay. And now, We are going to be talking up to a type seven today. I thought this episode was so interesting because I am always asked about relationships, like, well, especially cuz I wrote a book called The Engram and Love. Right? Um, so there's that aspect of it, but. People always ask me, how do you use the anagram in relationships? How do you use it, um, with your partner? And so today with my guests, we talked about her relationship, just her backstory. She's a type seven. and she is married to a three. And I gave her my apologies for that. Um, no, just kidding. but she, she's great. She. Basically has developed this, this workbook, on how to really do deep work with couples. so even within your own partnership, how to make things better and more fulfilling and all that good stuff. So, um, feel free to share any thoughts if you want to.

Heidi: 12:31

Yeah, I also really thought this episode is great. Um, I thought it was really cool that she gave us a glimpse into her marriage and what that looked like, which is really vulnerable, but also really helpful. And she also talked about, you know, experiencing fear as a seven, which is, you know, sometimes. We don't see that with sevens, and even they don't see that themselves. So I felt like that was really, really helpful. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm really excited to kind of share this episode.

Steph: 13:02

Yeah, so on today's episode, we are meeting with Jackie Brewster, a certified Enneagram coach, experiential specialist, author and speaker who consults with teams and people across the country. She shares daily practical engram content on her fast-growing Instagram page Enneagram with jb and in her free time. Jackie loves to cook, work out, and spend time with her friends, and she's constantly on the hunt for growth and spiritual development in her own life. She and her husband Steven have four amazing children and live in Franklin, Tennessee. And you can find her, like I mentioned on Instagram at engram with JB online@enneagramwithjb.com. and she also, so she, she has a couple books that I wanna mention. she has a card deck for self-awareness and connection, that actually I have. picked it up at my mailbox one day and I was like, I don't know what this is, and I don't know who this person is. Um, and so I was like, oh my God, I have that during our conversation, which was kind of a fun and a little bit embarrassing, like, that's, that's a little bit embarrassing, Stephanie. Uh, but it was, it was kind of fun to, to figure that out during our interview. Um, and then she also has her new book, which is called The Engram in Your Marriage, A seven Week Guide to Better Understanding and Loving Your Spouse. And just fyi, if you're into this or if you're not, sometimes this will. Be a deciding factor on if I purchase a book or not. Um, there is like a little bit of a Christian or like a faith-based tone to the book. it's not super heavily faith-based, but just. To let you know. So if you wanna get into it and you love that, go for it. If you're okay with a little, go for it. If you're very much not into anything faith-based, then perhaps, you can get her card deck instead, which is, not faith-based. So I hope you really enjoy this episode. And here's Jackie.

Steph Barron Hall: 15:00

Well, Jackie, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited that you're here today.

Jackie Brewster: 15:05

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be with you.

Steph Barron Hall: 15:08

Yeah. And I'm so thrilled to talk with you about your new book, uh, which I just learned that you have three. Um, so before we even jump in today, I'd love to hear a little bit of an introduction about yourself and, and this new book.

Jackie Brewster: 15:22

Yes. Um, well, I am, um, An Enneagram seven with a pretty strong eight wing. I'd love that to not be true, but it really is. And I think that, um, sometimes people think that, um, I'm an eight probably cuz I come in strong. Uh, but my heart lines up with a seven, my heart longing and things like that line up with an Enneagram seven. And so, um, I am a mom of four. Been married for just over 24 years and, uh, I live outside of Nashville, Tennessee in a little town called Franklin, and it's so cute and quaint. Uh, I'm an author and speaker and I have a, a life coaching practice, so I see clients full-time and it makes me so happy to be on the journey with so many people. I feel honored that they would allow me to be a part of the process of them uncovering and discovering more about themselves.

Steph Barron Hall: 16:14

Yeah. I love that. and you're so similar to myself and so many of the guests on this podcast in that sense of just like loving talking about the Enneagram and walking alongside people on their growth journey. So I love that

Jackie Brewster: 16:26

so much. Yeah. Yes, me too.

Steph Barron Hall: 16:28

Um, so tell me more about your type, like how did you learn about the Enneagram? And actually, sorry, I just forgot that your new book, tell me the title again.

Jackie Brewster: 16:40

Um, the Enneagram and your marriage.

Steph Barron Hall: 16:42

Okay. Ooh, what's that face for?

Jackie Brewster: 16:44

Mm-hmm. I don't know. Probably when I think about it, I'm like, yep, yep, I did. I wrote that book and I put stuff in that book and, um, I think it's a journey. That book is a journey to help people really hold space for one another and learn to love each other in a deeper way. I think, um, at the beginning of that book, I talk about the importance of a solid foundation, and I got married young. I was 21, he was 24. And you know, I. Long distance romance got married within nine months. I don't even think we knew each other. Um, we started this journey and then it was like, here we are, you know, and through it there was bumps and bruises and hurts and all kinds of things along the way. And, um, we're still going, you know, we're still walking this thing out, but I think if. I had had a resource like this that I just created that many years ago, it could have helped me understand myself better, um, and where I was getting in my own way. And also it could help me understand him better. And so I wouldn't get so hurt by things that I thought were my fault or, um, like maybe I'm just the problem or maybe I'm just too big or not enough. You know, like all the different things that happen inside of relationships. So, um, I don't, yeah, I don't know why my facial expression went like that. I think I'm really excited about this book and I think it, the book holds a lot of hope for people and um, and I hope that people feel that when they open that book and start to work through the, it's a workbook, it's a seven week workbook when they start to work through that workbook that they feel it was written from a place of hope for them and their story.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:23

Yeah. Yeah. And I love that. And I think the only reason that, um, your racial expression caught my eye was because I, I rec, I recognize that, that feeling, Like when I published my first book about, you know, relationships and, and everything, and going through the dynamics of each of the tight pairings, it kind of felt like, ah, who am I to even like say this? You know what I mean? Like, who am I to even talk about this? Because we, I think, have an expectation that we have to be perfect if we're gonna teach something, which what I love even more lately is that thought that we write the book that we're meant to read

Jackie Brewster: 19:01

Ooh, that is amazing.

Steph Barron Hall: 19:05

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Brewster: 19:06

That

Steph Barron Hall: 19:07

I heard, um, yeah, like James Clear, I've heard him say that before about Atomic Habits, you know, and you know, people are like, you must have perfect habits. And he's like, no.

Jackie Brewster: 19:18

No, no. I think the book is written out of years and years of therapy and, and self work. Like I've had to do so much work on myself and we've done so much work as a couple and, uh, we've done a lot of family work as well. And so the book is not written from a place of like, I know best do this my way. It's more written from a place of like, Hey, how do we learn to hold space for each other? A lot of empathy and compassion inside of that book. Um, and. I just, I feel like I had to go first in a lot of ways. And so I do feel this push to, um, not be perfect, um, but maybe tell the story, tell the messy part, part of the story so people can relate and know that they're not alone in it.

Steph Barron Hall: 19:59

Yeah. I love that. I think that people will really find that helpful. so that kind of makes me so curious then to hear how you encountered the na gram and. You know your husband as well, like how, what, what was that process like for you?

Jackie Brewster: 20:12

Yeah, so 13 years ago, my girlfriend is, um, we, we've taken our kids for a walk. So I have twins and my last babies are twins. They were born early. They're, they, they were just so tiny, teeny, tiny babies. Um, but they were like almost two at this time. Still very little for their, their age, but, um, They were two and we were going, or just about two, we were going for a walk and my girlfriend had a, a daughter that was like a year older than than mine. And so hers is in this stroller and she's eaten her. Who knows? Goldfish probably reading a book. I don't know. She's being perfect. Mine are not. Okay. My twins are like pulling each other's hair, hitting each other's, and then they figured out how to like wiggle their way out of, I had had'em in a double runner stroller, wiggle their way out of that. The straps turned around and looked at me, and then they slid themselves out of the stroller, and I was like, no way. I already feel a little bit crazy. Okay. At this point in my life I had four and my husband works a lot. It was just a lot. And so they, they take off running. It was a chaotic scene. I finally wrangle them, get them in the car, take them home, and my girlfriend that night, she sends me a message or she could have called me. It was a while ago, so I don't even know about text. I. I, I'm a little bit older, so I don't really, I'm like, I don't know, maybe it was text or maybe she called. I don't really remember you guys, but, um, she said, Hey, I got you a book and I love to read. I wanna get lost in other people's stories every day of my life. Let me go live in some other fantasy land. As a true Enneagram seven says, and so, right. And so, uh, three days later this book comes in the mail and it is the Wisdom of the Enneagram by Don Roseanne, Russ Hudson. And it has this weird symbol on the front, and I'm like, oh, this is not what I thought this was gonna be. And so I start to look through it and I'm like, oh, she is trying to help me or fix me, or whatever you want to call it. Like, I clearly do not look like I am. Okay. And so I started, I started to read through the book. I was not offended. I trust my friend. I love my friend. Um, and I know that she was probably like, this is a resource that I think could help her feel not crazy. She could know that she's not crazy. She's probably not healthy, but she's not crazy. And so, um, as I got into that book, And I did the test in the book, and at first I typed as an Enneagram eight and I was like, okay, I mean, I can get down with that. I'm strong and assertive and um, I've always had to figure life out on my own. Like I've just been really resilient in those ways. And so then I started to look at the seven as the Wing. And as I dug into that part of it, I was like, oh, no. I actually line up with everything with a seven. My heart longing is a seven. The unconscious childhood messages is a seven. My father left when I was, um, young. And so for the eight, like I don't wanna be betrayed. Uh, I think I grew up feeling like I'm probably gonna be betrayed. So that wasn't what I wanted. I wanted to know I was gonna be taken care of, and I wanted to know that somebody would see me as worthy of caring for, worthy of sticking around, worthy of loving. And so it really went into that seven, started the journey of just, uh, diving into it, learning more about myself, all the while doing a ton of therapy. So, um, You know, it's all, all the pieces. All the pieces to try to figure out how to become sane again in this really ridiculously crazy season of our life. Um, and so through that journey, I just kept digging and digging and digging. Got certified as an Enneagram coach and loved that. Went on to get certified in experiential practice, like experiential therapy. I'm not a therapist though, but um, on the experiential side so I can use some different modalities inside of my coaching to help people get into their story and for it to make sense. And so that was the journey of how I found the Enneagram. And then, I mean, it is, All up in my life now. Um, and my husband just got dragged along along the way cuz I was like, if I'm gonna get better, you're gonna get better. Right? We're gonna do this together. Right. And so at times he fought harder than I did because it was really hard and it, you know, so it was like kind of this battle of like, um, trying to find yourself after all these years. And so, um, he just, he came along with me on the journey.

Steph Barron Hall: 24:28

yeah. Because you had been married like 11 years at that point, something like that.

Jackie Brewster: 24:33

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 24:33

It was 13 years ago. So, Yeah. And that's like kind of at that point in a lot of people's marriages where it's like, okay, this is getting sticky, this is getting difficult. I'm like, kind of sick of you. Like the, the shine has officially worn off.

Jackie Brewster: 24:48

Oh, we had girlfriend. It had worn off. Like, let's, like at this point we're in, we're in therapy trying to figure out can we salvage this? Can we figure out how to do this? Um, we wanted to, we, we've, we have loved each other. Like the love is not the issue, the connection, communication. Um, just trying to figure out, we're both assertive types, so trying to figure out how to do things together. Uh, we had a therapist, we had two different therapists. They both said the same thing to us. And um, one was just mine and then one was the one that we saw together and they both said the same thing. They said, you guys are like, uh, um, two different trains on two different tracks going in the same direction. You guys want the same things, but you can't seem to figure out how to get on the same, on the same track. And so, It took, it took a long time for us to figure out how to do that.

Steph Barron Hall: 25:41

Yeah. What's his type Does he

Jackie Brewster: 25:43

He's a three. Oh

Steph Barron Hall: 25:45

Okay. That's what I was gonna guess.

Jackie Brewster: 25:47

That poor guy.

Steph Barron Hall: 25:48

me some cues. I

Jackie Brewster: 25:49

Yes. That poor guy. Yes. I share all of his stuff and he's like, I just don't want to know anymore. I'm like, okay. So, um,

Steph Barron Hall: 25:57

Yeah.

Jackie Brewster: 25:58

you know, like, I'm like, here we are. Um, but he's a three. Yep.

Steph Barron Hall: 26:02

Okay. Yeah. do you know his subtype by chance?

Jackie Brewster: 26:06

So he would be, um, I see all parts of him. Like I see all three subtypes active. Uh, I would say at this season we're, you know, we're a little older. He hates it when I say that, but we are like, we've got kind of like two kids grown, you know? Um, I see more self-preservation three in him today when he was younger. Much more one-to-one and social. It was much more drive and achieve and go. He's still very, very driven. Um, there's a super high drive on him, but I see more pull in and wanna be home and with us and creating a safe, secure atmosphere, um, than I've ever seen before in the past five years.

Steph Barron Hall: 26:51

Yeah. What about your subtype?

Jackie Brewster: 26:54

Great. That's, I love it. I was at an event just last week and they asked, they were asking subtypes and I ended up doing this whole thing. I never thought I would tell anybody about this part of my life. Um, but about the subtypes, how they, how they showed up when I was young. Definitely the one-to-one subtype that was definitely, that was survival. Like how do I do this chemistry connection? Figure out how to be liked, fun, adventurous, uh, through the years, the social aspect was, was loud. Um, I did a lot of outreach and different things like that gave, you know, I care about, I care about single moms. I care about inner city. Um, I care about orphans. I care about, um, I really, I really, really care about people not having enough food. Like that is the one thing that wrecks me, so I could see how that comes in. But I would say self-preservation today is probably where I function most out of.

Steph Barron Hall: 27:45

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's really interesting that you kind of both have like a little bit of alignment there.

Jackie Brewster: 27:51

Mm-hmm. It's a lot of years probably I've worked together to create a safe and secure atmosphere and environment within our relationship, and so then, then that self-preservation feels safe. I feel safe with you, so then I can be safe.

Steph Barron Hall: 28:06

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. I'm curious how you've seen your type show up in the way that you wrote your book, and like, what was the process like for you?

Jackie Brewster: 28:18

Mm,

Steph Barron Hall: 28:18

Because I am on the tail end of writing right now. and I'm like, oh my gosh. It's, it's, it just puts you through the ringer.

Jackie Brewster: 28:28

It is. Um, it's interesting. So that's what I'll say. So, I typically have an idea. The first book I didn't, the first book that I wrote, my girlfriend came to me and said, Hey, I have an idea, you wanna do this? And I was like, I don't know, like, I'm not sure. Let me see if I can even do what you're asking me to do. And then we got, um, an acquisition editor came and asked us if, asked me if I was working on anything. So I, I had to write that book in three months and it is this massive book. And so, The next project. I feel like it was kind of fast like that too. And then this marriage project, I think that my brain is constant. It just makes lots of connections. So I'm a visionary, big picture thinker, so it's both pieces. Right. Um, and I have done a. A fair amount of work. So I do feel like I've got a pretty good amount of access to the upper side of the one. Even though it's my stress number, I feel like I can get to orderly and organized. So when I write, it's pretty orderly and organized. I lay, I lay it all out. It's, it has to make sense to me and I want things so pretty systematic. I, I want to take people on a journey, um, and I want it to be applicable. So how, I see that and then I start to lay it out. I usually have to use paper, um, and lay out paper all over my dining room table of where I'm going. And then from there I can start to use a, a Google doc and just, and then I can start to type and go for it. Um, and then I definitely lean into my editor. whoa. Like that. They are very generous to me because I'm like, I don't know where the comma goes. I have no idea. Is that a run on sentence? Oh, I never put a period in that whole paragraph. Sorry about that. Um, so I think, um, big concepts and then break it down to practical application is, is kind of how I think about probably my writing process.

Steph Barron Hall: 30:27

Yeah, that makes sense. And I think, I, I do kind of feel like a lot of sevens I meet have that need or or desire to really understand like, what is the model here? Like, what is the structure? and, and of course it could be like the arrow to one, but I also think it's a head type thing. like I was just talking with somebody, recently who. Just talking about like, I don't know how all y'all heart tight, just all with your feelings. Like, what are you doing? Like put some structure around it. And I loved that because it's something that's like, I don't always notice, you know, I want things to be extremely practical, like as a three, I care a lot about that, but I, when I'm writing a book, I'm not like, like, I don't want to have to do the same structure for every chapter. Even though I will, but I don't want to. And I think sevens have a little bit more of a, a need in some ways for the, the, that specificity.

Jackie Brewster: 31:21

Yeah, I think that. The editors have taught me that it has to go that way.

Steph Barron Hall: 31:29

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Brewster: 31:30

So I'm like, oh, okay. And then it does help me write cause I'm like, okay, then I need, this is the flow. Then I can look back through the whole thing and see what I've missed, where I need to add, what, what makes sense, what doesn't make sense. So, yes, order, and I would not have not have thought this about myself younger. That I liked order, um, but my life is very structured, like very, very structured. And inside of that structure, I want some freedom,

Steph Barron Hall: 32:01

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Brewster: 32:02

but I really like to know what to expect because then it makes me not anxious.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:07

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Brewster: 32:08

So that anxious piece, you know.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:11

Do you think that you are always able to see the anxiety as a seven?

Jackie Brewster: 32:16

No, I didn't see it. I didn't see it at all. My whole family struggles with mental health stuff like anxiety and depression and, and, um, OC D and all kinds of things. And I was like, I'm unscathed, it's not me. And then I got older and I'm like, I have been scared my entire life. Um, that was, and so, you know, that was this year me doing some work, probably work with clients and you just start to reflect on different things you're doing stuff. And, um, that was a realization this year when I looked back. I'm like, I have been scared my entire life. So anxiety has been, A root cause of busyness, scattered thinking, um, impulsivity, irritability, nitpicky. A lot of that has to do with the, the root of anxiety that I didn't know was there.

Steph Barron Hall: 33:12

Yeah, and it's interesting how those core feelings for each of the triads can be like such a big blind spot because. It's just like, we're like, I'm gonna do everything I possibly can to not experience

Jackie Brewster: 33:25

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 33:27

What was it like for you to finally see that?

Jackie Brewster: 33:31

Um, I feel like this year has been a journey, um, around letting myself feel, even though I've done a lot of work, you guys. Um, but if we're being honest, right? Cause I wanna be honest and paint a really true picture of what it feels like to do the work. Um, it's been hard. That's what it's been. It's been like, oh my gosh, this makes a lot of sense to a lot of the ways that I've coped through my life. Um, and I don't wanna do that anymore. So if I don't wanna do that anymore, then I have to make choices to let things go or to face them, which is the scariest thing for a seven, is actually to go into those fears and face them. Um, and I've, I have. I felt a lot of prompting around that part of my story this past year around, um, they're probably not as scary as I'm afraid that they are. And I think I just did a lot of reframing. I, you know, when I look back at my story, I'm like, I, I, I don't know how I survived a lot of things. I survived. Um, and you know, I just think like, wow, I don't. Man, she was really tough. When I look

Steph Barron Hall: 34:47

to be.

Jackie Brewster: 34:48

yeah, when I look back at, at my little girl self in those teenage years and then those, those, those marriage, early marriage years, like, um, I feel a lot of compassion. Um, sometimes I wanna cry

Steph Barron Hall: 35:06

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Brewster: 35:07

I just think like, you had no idea how scared you were and you were just hoping somebody would make you feel safe.

Steph Barron Hall: 35:15

Yeah. Yeah. And so just launching into, you know, those worn in personality patterns,

Jackie Brewster: 35:23

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 35:23

it's like, do, do, do. Here I go. I don't have any of that other stuff, but like you absolutely needed that. I mean, I think that's how we all are, right? Like where we have these worn in personality patterns because we've needed them, they're survival mechanisms. And then you get to a point where you're like, this isn't working.

Jackie Brewster: 35:42

Right. Right. And that's all it is when I, you know, like if I, I don't wanna make it, I don't know how you teach it exactly. So I don't wanna disrespect any of anybody's thoughts on it. But when I teach the Enneagram, I'm really just looking at personality. Um, it's the patterns of behavior. I'm just, I'm looking for patterns. I'm looking for patterns because patterns are coping strategies, the way that we've tried to survive throughout our life. How do we get love? How do we get our needs met and how do we keep ourselves safe? It's cradle to grave. How we try to do it early on is probably how we still are trying to do some of this as we get older and we do have an opportunity to look at it and say like, wait, wait, wait. I don't wanna do it like that anymore. But oftentimes we're gonna have to dig out why we did it like that in the first place. And so, It's just deep, beautiful work. Um, so I don't wanna, I don't wanna dumb it down to this is all it is. Um,

Steph Barron Hall: 36:35

Right.

Jackie Brewster: 36:35

but when I'm looking at things with people or myself, I'm trying to make sense of them. And that's such a seven thinking part of the brain. Yeah, I think so. Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 36:47

though, it's like being able to note the different parts of like the personality shell that are actually making those things happen. Like if you're thinking about, okay, the passion, the fixation, the defense, like all those sorts of things, you can. And you start to like get to know what's behind a lot of that for somebody, you're like, okay, I can map these things. You know? So how could we move out of that behavior? Yeah.

Jackie Brewster: 37:13

Yeah. Yeah. I love the aha moments that happen in the room. I love to see people. Things make sense or like you've given me words to something I have felt my entire life. Um, and that was like when I first started reading the Wisdom of the Enneagram, that book, it said something about, um, like the Enneagram seven, it's like frantic escapism. And I was like, oh my gosh, that's me. That's me. And I'm not crazy. I'm just not healthy. Like that's, it was like the, the realization of like, This is why I feel like I need to get out of this because I don't feel supported or I don't feel seen, or I feel overwhelmed by the expectations. I'm not having fun, like being a mom of four little kiddos with a. Enneagram three, workaholic husband. It was not always fun. Um, and so inside of that I can look back and see like, oh, I didn't wanna escape them or my life. I just needed some, I needed, I needed help. I just needed help.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:20

And it sounds to me, I'm like, oh God, I'm getting anxiety hives thinking about four little ones. And you're like on your own a lot of the time. Like, whew.

Jackie Brewster: 38:29

Yes, it was, it was a crazy road, but now one of'em turns 21 this year or this month. And um, I have a 19 year old and the twins are 14, so I feel like, okay, my head is above water.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:42

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Brewster: 38:42

Um, I still get those twins. We, we gotta make it through with those twins. But I'm like, at least, um, it doesn't feel so. Like cluttered or crowded or cloudy. That's how I think I felt, uh, when I was younger in, in the middle of it, of like, I don't know where I stop and they begin or where they stop and I begin. It just felt like a lot of like, if you guys are okay, I will figure out how to be okay. It didn't mean I was okay, it just meant that I was gonna cope and figure out how do I be okay inside of this. And so, um, it was a lot of learning, a lot of growth.

Steph Barron Hall: 39:28

Yeah. Yeah. And it's cool that you're able to kind of like take that wisdom too and like work with it in this new way. And I think even, you know, I think about like, oh, you could teach like moms, you know how to, to work with this stuff too, because I think that's something I get. You know, people ask me about it all the time. I'm like, you don't want my parenting advice. I don't have kids like you really like, you know,

Jackie Brewster: 39:51

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 39:52

like I have dog parenting advice and even that's not that good to like ask somebody who's experienced it, you know? Um,

Jackie Brewster: 40:00

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 40:01

but I think that that's important because what you're able to highlight is the importance of doing your own personal work and your own personal like, Reflection and like what is happening here and how that impacted the way that you parent it.

Jackie Brewster: 40:15

Right. It's kind of like on the airplane when they tell you, like, put your mask on first and then put the mask on for your children. Um, when I think about that, just as you're saying this and thinking about this, uh, that is what I think I had to do. I was trying to put it on everybody else's mask and, um, but I, I was like, Losing oxygen. I just couldn't, I couldn't function. And so it didn't matter that everybody else was somewhat functioning. I was not functioning from a healthy place at all, and so, and I couldn't see clearly, you know, I just felt so overwhelmed. So I do think. The importance of doing your work and even the book that I wrote, the marriage one is the side by side work of you and your partner. Both people need to do their work, so when you do it together, it's helpful, um, because you don't feel like you're like dragging somebody through it or you are changing and they're not, and then that can cause a lot of divide. In relationship, like, I'm getting better and you are not even caring about it. And so I do think there's such benefit and when you do the work together, um, so that there's, you know, both of you are seeing like, I'm trying and I'm growing and I'm, this, this is my wounding and you're stepping all over it, you know, um, or this is your wounding and I'm stepping all over it. And I had no idea. I had no idea. So,

Steph Barron Hall: 41:38

Yeah. What would you say to somebody, I get this question all the time. so I'm gonna ask you now, what would you say to somebody who, like, they love the engram, they see how useful it is and they really want their, their partner to get on board and their partner's just like not into it. How do you work with somebody like that and how do you help them kind of, you know, get on the same page with their partner to, to really move forward?

Jackie Brewster: 42:02

Mm-hmm. I think, um, I get those questions too, or clients. I get clients that one person's working really hard and the other one's not interested. Um, usually when. If it's a healthy relationship, uh, that if when one person sees the other person beginning to change and there's curiosity, and it's not a pointed finger around like if you would do your work, if you would just learn these things, you would change. But they see that their partners saying like, I'm doing this work and I'm changing. I'm seeing these things about me, and it's making a difference. And it starts to ch like shift the atmosphere a little bit in the, within the relationship. I think that that is a good way that. A good opening perhaps even to like, well, what are you reading? You know, what is that thing you're reading? Like, what did you even hear about that? Or, um, when we learned, like for me that, um, that peace. Around. I want to be, um, taken care of. I didn't wanna be a burden. So my husband had come, well, he didn't come home. I had called him and said, Hey, the twins need shoes for Easter. And he was like, ah. And he made this big sigh and I thought, my goodness. He doesn't wanna take care of us. Like, okay, he doesn't wanna take care of us. So when he gets home, I'm only gonna target, like, I'm not even going to Nordstrom. I'm not doing anything crazy. I'm just literally going to target to get, buy these kids some shoes. Um, so I was like, when he came home, I was like, okay, I'm just gonna tell him I'll, I'll wait tables. I'll do whatever I need to do at night. I'll figure out how to take care of me and the kids. My dad left when I was little, so it was my single mom trying to figure this out. So my messaging was like, You're a burden. So when he came home, he's like, Hey, babe. And I'm like, hi. And he is like, what, what's the matter? And I was like, nothing, I'm fine. And he was like, you're clearly not fine. And I said, well, on the phone you made the sigh and I know you don't wanna take care of me and the kids, so I, I'm gonna figure out how to do it. And he was like, what are you talking about? Like, I, I had just transferred money. So when you called or you messaged me and said, Hey, will you transfer a little bit more? Well, I guess call cuz I heard him sigh. Um, he said I had just done it and I, I just thought like, oh crap, I just did that. If I would've known, I would've transferred all at one time. He said, I wanna take care of you and the kids, like you're not a burden. But because of old messaging, it was making me really defensive against him and like, A lot of self-protection around, um, how much of my heart I would give him. And so when I began to do my own work on that and he saw me taking ownership of some of my own stuff, that's when he was like, okay, well let me read about mine. Let me see what this says about me. And so it kind of was like a, an entry point. So I think that that could be one way, um, you know, I don't know if handing a book and telling them to go figure themselves out as a healthy way. Some of us do that though. Um,

Steph Barron Hall: 45:07

Some of us do, some of us

Jackie Brewster: 45:09

you know, you know, some of us do that. I don't know if that's a healthy way. Uh, I, a lot of people use Instagram or TikTok and send them, send them different things on that. Like, Hey, read this. He read that, read this. That's kind of a non-confrontational way, um, that I see people do all the time. So that could be a way, um, I have this amazing card deck that could be a way,

Steph Barron Hall: 45:34

Oh

Jackie Brewster: 45:34

uh, the, yeah, the Igram Essentials card deck. And it, it is, uh, um, kinda walks you through the personality types and on different personality types. A lot like my Instagram, it's, it's kind of like if you don't wanna read a book, um, about it all, it's kind of like it in a nutshell. Here's the, the card deck. So it's more conversational. So that's always a tool that you could use to help people engage in conversation.

Steph Barron Hall: 45:58

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's so useful. And I think too, one thing I encounter a lot, and actually a lot with sevens in particular, is, the pain that you start to experience from not, you know, dealing with your stuff, has to outweigh like the benefit you're getting from ignoring it before you'll actually start doing the work. And I think. I've experienced a lot of sevens who are like, why would I wanna see things differently though? Why would I want to not just like look for the bright side all the time? Like, why would I want to be different or why would I want to be grounded? You know? And I think for me as a coach sometimes I'm like, well, come back to me when you, you want to, you know? because I think that that can be a really hard thing. And I'm curious if you can. Offer like a little bit of a glimpse of like a picture of like what is the transformation that's available to people when they go through this process?

Jackie Brewster: 46:56

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, and I do think, you know, within Enneagram seven in particular, although there's, there's quite a few numbers that avoid feelings, um, that, that wanna avoid it, and like, I'm not gonna look at it. I don't wanna see it. I don't have, I don't wanna deal with it. Uh, but what is probably at play, what, cuz everyone I, how I talk about it is that there's a cost to your denial. There's a cost to it. The cost is probably emotional connection and a healthy relationship. That is probably the cost. So, um, And I think that we can have relationships and they can feel good and all those things, but if we're looking at that deep emotional connection that is available with transformation work, um, it only happens when you are willing to, to look at the good, the bad, and the ugly. When you were able to see your own stuff and be able to see your, your, the other people's stuff and hold space for both. So without doing the work, the relationship oftentimes is tasked based or transactional based. Connection and relationship. You can do that for a long time, but I think you're missing that emotional piece right there that makes all of the difference. Human beings are created for connection, and so when you have a deep connection and a secure attachment that changes everything, it's totally worth the work. So when Steve and I had started to do this work, It wasn't all, any of groundwork at the beginning. A lot of it was just therapy. Um, and then as we learned more about our personality types and I had to go into hard places at one point in therapy, he's like, we're doing it. And I'm like, we're not, I don't wanna do it. I don't wanna do any of this. I don't even, I don't wanna feel any of these feelings. And he was like, I'm gonna feel them and you're gonna feel them, and we're gonna fight for this thing. And so I feel like he dragged me through it, but I needed him to, I just was so afraid. I was afraid. I didn't wanna look back on my childhood. I didn't wanna look into the situations within our marriage. I just didn't. I was just afraid. I'm like, if I ignore it, if I just pretend it doesn't exist, maybe it will go away, but, We all know that that is not true. Things just don't go away, you know? Um, emotions get stored in deep tissue. We carry them around with us and, you know, they manifest in different ways in within our body. And so I think the, the beautiful work that happens, I can attest to it in our marriage. Um, I just remember being in the therapist's office and, um, and him that our therapist saying to my husband, her heart is shattered in a thousand pieces on the floor. And she would like to sweep it up and um, and start to put it back together. And he was like, okay. And he said, it's not all from you. I don't even think she gave it to you whole. Like I think her heart was already shouted, you know, is already, is already in pieces. And it's just throughout the years of her trying to. Protect herself and not need anybody and do it all or on her own. It just got worse and worse and worse

Steph Barron Hall: 50:12

Yeah.

Jackie Brewster: 50:13

I couldn't figure out how to emotionally connect. I couldn't figure out how to let my guard down enough to let somebody love me because I just assumed that they probably wouldn't. So it was a lot of like, it was, we had a fun marriage. We have a fun marriage, but it was fun. We didn't fight a lot. Um, things were good. There wasn't a lack of anything. Um, but it was transactional or, or task. It wasn't that, that deep emotional connection, cuz I didn't know how to do it. I just was so afraid. And he was afraid too, as a three. He's like, I don't know what to do with feelings. Like, I don't, I don't even how to hold space my own feelings, nevermind her feelings. When she has feelings that triggers me and I wanna run away. And then, you know, when he ran away, I was standing there with. A little piece of exposure that I tried. I tried to be vulnerable, I tried, and then it just wasn't working. So as we did this work and we began to see the shattered pieces of both of our hearts from different situations and circumstances throughout our lives, um, we got to help each other. I think in some ways glue the heart back together. Um, and so. There is this deep knowing that we have now that we didn't have even five years ago, um, this deep, like, I see you, you matter to me, um, and the attunement that happens and it takes work to do that. So the transformation that happens on the other end of it, it is a rich, uh, beautiful, peaceful. Me as an Enneagram seven saying this to you, peaceful way of being. I don't feel like anxiety rules my life at all. Um, every now and then, if I have something big, big deadline or something like that, I can feel it. And then I like to shop, so that's how I medicate that. Um, I like to buy jeans, so, but on the most part, like I just feel, I feel seen. I feel. Known. I feel understood, I feel accepted, I feel celebrated, and I had to do that for myself first before I could. I could allow somebody else into that space and see me and know me and support me and celebrate me.

Steph Barron Hall: 52:23

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that's such a beautiful picture too, of like, what could be possible. because I think I, I mean, at least on my side of TikTok anyway, it's like, there's so much about, the mental load that a lot of women carry in these different things and how, just like saying like, Hey, can we have more. Equality in when it turn comes to doing things around the house or helping with the kids or whatever. And I think that that's important. Obviously, like that's one piece, like you have, every couple has to work out what that's gonna look like for them. But I also think the next step is then what you're talking about of like, okay, let's actually have the emotional connection part, like so we're not so stressed. Or like half of us are not so stressed. and then we can actually say, okay, let's have like an actual relationship. Because I see that so often too, in my work. And, yeah, it, it's challenging.

Jackie Brewster: 53:18

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that emotional connection changes. Everything about the relationship because now when you're making decisions, you're thinking about how it affects the other person or the whole family unit, not just yourself. And so that emotional connection, like I see you, I think about you, you matter to me, um, and I'm thinking about you actively thinking about you in the decisions that I'm making, then it is like, My husband will make the bed in the morning and I'm like, oh, that's nice. Or he'll do the dishes if it's his night to, to like make dinner. We're usually eating out, which I'm not complaining about that either, but, um, but there, there is a lot of this, um, equality, like you said, there is this piece that it didn't happen at the beginning. I don't think we knew what we were doing. You guys, we were so young. Um, But now I can see just the care and concern. Like, he's like, oh, she's had a really full day of clients. How can I lighten the love? Or I'm like, oh, he's coming in from out of town. What is he gonna need? You know, what can I, is there anything that I could do to make him coming back home easier? Um, you just think about each other in a different way. It's

Steph Barron Hall: 54:33

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I wonder if you have like one little tip that you can share for people who are just starting out, like think of, you know, a tip that you could give yourself and 21 year old Jackie, like, what does she need to know?

Jackie Brewster: 54:46

so much. She needed to know so much y'all.

Steph Barron Hall: 54:49

Pump the brakes,

Jackie Brewster: 54:50

the right, she needed therapy before she got married. That's what she needed. So, um, I, I mean, 21 year old Jackie, I would say, um, Take up this space. It's okay for you to take up space. It's okay. It's okay for you to take up space, move towards people that celebrate you, not merely tolerate you. Um, you're worth celebrating. There's something beautiful inside of you. Move towards people that are gonna help pull that out instead of, um, shut it down and make you small. Move towards people. But on a really practical thing, what I would love, um, To say is that when we're talking about healthy relationships and emotional connection, um, there's three key components to this and it's accessibility, responsiveness, and engagement. So in relationship, when you reach for your person, could be friendship, it could be romantic relationship. When you reach, are they there? Are they accessible? Are they, are they, you know, are they there for you and are you there for them? And then the responsiveness, if, if you reach and they do respond to you, what does that responsiveness look like? Are they attuning to you or do they, they, um, require you to attune to them? We want them to attune to you. We want it to be reciprocal back and forth both ways here. But with that, do they see you? Do you matter? Eye contact, body language, all those beautiful parts around attunement and connection, and then engage. Um, are they willing to engage in the relationship with you? Is it reciprocal? Where you both give and take. It's this beautiful dance of give and take inside of relationship. Nobody gets to win. You guys. It is this dance that you learn to do and it's friendship. In romantic relationships, secure connections, but accessibility, responsiveness, and engagement, I think are essential keys to healthy human emotional connection that make all the difference in your life.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:41

Yeah. And then everybody wins

Jackie Brewster: 56:44

Everybody wins. That's right.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:46

as a three. I'm like, no, no, no, it's not. Nobody wins. It's everybody wins.

Jackie Brewster: 56:49

You're like, wait, wait. Somebody used to win.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:52

Yeah.

Jackie Brewster: 56:52

Yeah, that's right. Everybody wins in it. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:56

I love it. well, tell us where we can find you online where we can buy your books and card deck and all that good stuff.

Jackie Brewster: 57:05

So on social media, I'm Enneagram with jb. And, um, on, I have a website, j it's Enneagram with jb.com. And there you can see all my resources, everything, um, that I offer. And you can buy my books anywhere. Books are sold. Amazon, um, baker has a bookstore that, uh, right now the marriage book is on sale. Um, Which is a great price for that one. Uh, but anywhere books are sold.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:31

Cool. great. I'll put all the links in the show notes. final questions.

Jackie Brewster: 57:35

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:35

So tell me about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year.

Jackie Brewster: 57:41

So, I love to read. I, I mean, I so many books. So many books, so this is a hard one for me. But I do think, um, Dr. Sue Johnson. She's such a great teacher on, um, emotionally focused therapy. So hold me Tight is, uh, one of those books that I think is transformational and so that's, I'm passionate about the work that she's doing and, um, I love The Impact is made in my own life. So I would say that is a book that I recommend that I love. I love that book.

Steph Barron Hall: 58:13

Okay. Love it. I'm so excited. I've never read that. So, I'm ex I'm excited to check it out. cool. And then what about a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Jackie Brewster: 58:22

A piece of advice. Hmm. Um, well, within, within marriage, my mom, this is what's coming to my brain. My mom always said, don't tell me things that you're gonna want me to forgive him for, cuz I'm gonna have a hard time because you're my baby. And so within relationship, I think I've always thought about that. Like, don't bring your family into fights. Don't, don't bring people into your, into your romantic relationship fights. Um, not that you can't have a girlfriend or a friend, your sister, you know what I mean? That that is there to help you navigate it, but be careful who you let into those conversations. Um, I think that is one of those life lessons

Steph Barron Hall: 59:03

Yeah,

Jackie Brewster: 59:04

really meaningful and impactful for me.

Steph Barron Hall: 59:06

yeah, yeah. I love that. And I think I've, I've heard other people, say something similar. I think for me, for, I'm like, I have my specific friend, like a few specific friends. That I can say anything and that it will not change their opinion of my husband and vice versa. Right.

Jackie Brewster: 59:23

That's what you need. You need one of those people.

Steph Barron Hall: 59:26

Right. And then like anything else, it's like, nope, you know, we don't need to go into that. But, um, and, and it's nice because it's like, then I don't have to feel like, oh, I've gotta protect

Jackie Brewster: 59:37

Right,

Steph Barron Hall: 59:38

his image, right? Cuz I'm like, I'm always thinking about image cuz I'm a three, right? I don't have to protect his image. I can just, Say what I feel honest about and then figure out how to move forward from there.

Jackie Brewster: 59:49

Yeah. That's so important to have.

Steph Barron Hall: 59:51

yeah,

Jackie Brewster: 59:52

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 59:52

yeah. I love that. Good advice from mom,

Jackie Brewster: 59:56

It is. She is. She's got some, she's got some good advice over there. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:00

little gems of wisdom. Well, I love it. Thanks so much for joining me today. This has been a great conversation and I look forward to hearing how everyone is loving your book when, they receive it.

Jackie Brewster: 1:00:10

Thank you so much for having me.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:13

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify