Enneagram in Real Life

The Enneagram Path to Emotional Intelligence with Scott Allender, Type 3

April 25, 2023 Season 3 Episode 1
Enneagram in Real Life
The Enneagram Path to Emotional Intelligence with Scott Allender, Type 3
Show Notes Transcript

On this week’s episode of Enneagram IRL, we meet with Scott Allender.


Scott Allender is an expert in global leadership and organizational development. Along with cohosting The Evolving Leader podcast, Scott regularly teaches Enneagram workshops and conducts typing interviews and emotional intelligence assessments for individuals and teams who seek to become more radically self-aware and cognizant of the impact they have on the world. 



Click here to order Scott’s book


Follow Scott on Instagram: @EQEnneagram 

Or connect with Scott online: Scotteallender.com

​​

Twitter: @Evolving_Leader

LinkedIN: linkedin.com/in/scott-allender



Here are the key takeaways:

  • The importance of Emotional Intelligence 
  • Scott’s introduction to the Enneagram and finding his type
  • Common unconscious patterns of Type 3
  • Scott’s experience as a Self Preservation 3
  • An act of courage: Confronting the ego
  • Growth requires a bit of suffering
  • Real inner work doesn’t come from quick “tips & tricks”



Resources mentioned in this episode:



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Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in real life. A podcast that will help you go beyond any grand theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Baron hall, creator of nine types co on Instagram, author of the Enneagram in love, accredited Enneagram, professional, and ennea curious human, just like you be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram and your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now onto the show.

Steph Barron Hall:

Welcome back to an Agram in real life where we explore how to apply our Ngram knowledge in our daily lives. This is a little bit of a different intro because it's a brand new season, and so we have some new things going on, uh, but I'm still here. I'm Steph.

Heidi Alaniz Critz:

And I'm Heidi.

Steph Barron Hall:

And we are going to be starting our brand new format with Heidi, um, hosting along with me because it's just more fun. It's more fun to do things with friends and also it's a lot more interesting for me. So selfishly I just was like, let, let's have Heidi come join us. You already might know me from Instagram a little bit. Um, nine Types Co. But Heidi has been working with me for like two and a half years. Um, and Heidi has also been going through, and maybe you're almost done with the CP Ngram program with, uh, Beatrice Chestnut and, and Iranian PIs. So I'm sure, uh, if you like them too, you're also listening to their podcast.

Heidi Alaniz Critz:

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Steph Barron Hall:

We are going to talk about. The Ingram even more today with our guests, which I'll get to in a second. But before we do that, uh, we have some new segment. So, um, the first one is our types, i r l, um, cuz we're all about i r L here. So Heidi, how have you seen your type show up this week?

Heidi Alaniz Critz:

Yeah. Ooh. Well, um, I saw my type show up, um, and this happens quite often, so, um, something that I had to like really. Remind myself to get out of like spending so much time internally and just, um, I found myself sitting in my room and the windows were open. It was very beautiful outside. But um, yeah, there I just was a little stir crazy. I work from home, so I. Was just thinking, man, if I just, I don't know if I had this or this, I would just be so much happier. And you know, if I were, if I lived in this state or you know, this place, I'd be so much happier, whatever. And I really had to just like snap myself out of it. And it's almost like opening my eyes and like coming outside of my internal perspective. And it was just, I realized like, In this moment, it's really beautiful. Like it's incredible weather outside. It's so peaceful in this home. I have my animals around me and just like in this moment, like I'm okay and it's actually really beautiful and I remind myself to like enjoy in the moment. And so I started to do like a gratitude journal because that's like something that's like really probably really important to kind of get into a good habit. Um, I can't say that I've been consistent every single day. But it's been really, really helpful. Like it's just reminding myself like one little thing. Um, it could be small, but what am I thankful about? And a lot of the time, like the journal entry is just like, like, I got to spend time with my husband, or like, today was beautiful weather. Like little things like that. So that's how I saw my type show up. And um, yeah, it was nice to kind of get out of that internal perspective. What about you?

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah, such a. Yeah, so I mean, such a good growth for a type four. And I think too, um, I, I'm curious like how you are able to snap yourself out of it, because like when you say it that way, makes it sound easy. But I know that it's probably taken years of like growth and inner work to be

Heidi Alaniz Critz:

Oh, uh, yeah, a hundred percent. I would say. Um, a lot of the time it. Is like really intentional of like when I feel myself getting like heavy or, I mean, I've had to like make boundaries with myself to not even indulge in that like life that's in my head, you know? That's not even real. And so like, it started out with just making boundaries, like noticing that first and then like slowly, like, okay. Like, I don't wanna feel this way. Like I've, I've tapped into feeling really, like, joyful in moments and I wanna keep feeling that way. So yeah, that's what I mean. Like, I, I just have to notice like it's a self-observation thing, like just really catching it because I think that's like the first step. Yeah, for sure.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. Absolutely. Yep.

Heidi Alaniz Critz:

Yeah. Awesome. Um, what about you? How has your type shown up this week?

Steph Barron Hall:

Um, okay, so type three. Um, I think one thing I've just been noticing a lot is like being really harsh on myself or like, Because specifically related to like how many of the things that I wanna get done, I'm not getting done. And I, I tend to have this perspective of like, if I plan my week perfectly, I could, we were just talking about this. I could see my coaching clients, my corporate clients, um, have a podcast, have a YouTube channel, which I would really love to do. I think that would be really fun. Um, And like write for Instagram and write a book and like all of that stuff. Um, and for me, I think how my brain normally functions is like, if I optimize my time, I can do it all. But that's just not, you know,

Heidi Alaniz Critz:

Sustainable. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall:

Like, yeah, it, it's not, it's not really like a healthy way to approach things. So, um, just noticing like how often I fall into that rut and instead of being like, Hmm, maybe that all of this stuff is just not in my capacity. I like think, oh, I should be able to accomplish all of this. And there's either, you know, if, if I'm not, then I'm falling short or I'm failing, or like I have been wasting too much time. Um, instead of seeing myself as a person who like has waning. Energy at different times or, um, different amounts of capacity or brain space or, or, um, even just like limited time where it's like, I'm not gonna work

Heidi Alaniz Critz:

Right.

Steph Barron Hall:

Um, so what does it look like for me to have like a really good schedule though? I, I will admit there are definitely days when it's like a workday and I don't do anything. And I know that sometimes people with like a regular old full-time job do the same thing, but sometimes people look at me, they're like, you're so productive. I'm like, you didn't see me yesterday?

Heidi Alaniz Critz:

right. Honestly, like sometimes we just need those days like to just rest. I think it's like more and more people are working from home, um, and I think. Uh, it's just kind of needed at some points, like you just that you can't really take the time when you're, when you are, you know, working in an office or something like that. So that, I think that is nice. Um, yeah.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. Yeah. it's a good reminder for me.

Heidi Alaniz Critz:

Yeah. Well, okay. I know we also have, um, a second segment that we want to start doing, um, idea of the week. So Steph, what are you into this week? What are you learning? What are you thinking about? I want to hear all the things.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. Um, so. One thing I've been thinking about a lot, um, I've been reading this book or listening to this book, um, called How to Decide by Annie Duke. She is a former champion poker player. Um, so if I remember correctly, cuz I, I first, you know, heard some of her, um, backstory on, I think the, I think it was on Adam Grant's podcast, but she. Was finishing up her PhD in psychology and then she had to take some time off, um, because other things in life happened. And as she was doing that, she started playing poker. She was like, oh, I'm really good at this. And you know, with psychology, there's like this natural, um, kind of ability to be able to like read people, but you also have to think a lot about, um, probability, um, and. So this book is really about how we make decisions and how to make good decisions. Her whole thing is don't think about the outcome, actually. Like, think about the probability of these different, um, possible things, you know, happening. And it's like a whole process that I really, really. Appreciate, and I've, I've learned a lot from it so, um, yeah, I've really been loving that book, um, that's called How To Decide by Annie

Heidi Alaniz Critz:

Wow. That's so fascinating.

Steph Barron Hall:

I know. So what about you? What are you into this week? What are you thinking about learning about?

Heidi Alaniz Critz:

Yeah. Um, mine is pretty short, but it's really, really good. Um, I was scrolling on TikTok and I can't remember, um, the exact handle, but if you like, um, search. Um, like this quote, it's, I'm not afraid to be seen trying and that is, whew. I know. That is so cra I think for a lot of types for different reasons, you know, that's, that's very difficult. And like for me, like I have such an ideal expectation of like how I'm supposed to show up or how things are supposed to look, even if it's on like the first try, which that's not reasonable. I've never done this before, you know? So, um, Man, but I mean that's how like a lot of fun things happen and like that's like your first step is just learning as you go. And so yeah, I'm not afraid to be seen trying. That's like so important. Yeah,

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. I love that. That's, it's so hard to learn that,

Heidi Alaniz Critz:

For sure. For sure.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. Okay. Well I think that's a great segue into our guest today because we did talk a lot about these different types of knowing, um, these different types of thinking, uh, the brain, um, the body, the heart, you know, these different spaces. And I think what I love about the Engram is that it talks about how we are, you know, three brained beings, not just in the sense of, of when we talk about like the different, um, Regions of the brain. I, I've seen a lot of people talk about like triune brain theory, that, that sort of thing. But I think with the Enneagram we're thinking even more so about, um, body, heart, and head. And so today we have an episode with a friend of mine named Scott Aller. And we'll be talking about his new book, which is called the Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence. Um, Scott is, An expert in global leadership and organizational development, along with co-hosting the Evolving Leader podcast, Scott regularly teaches the engram, um, in workshops and conducts typing interviews and emotional intelligence assessments for individuals and teams who seek to become more radically self-aware and cognizant of the impact that they have on the world. And he is both an emotional intelligence coach and he also completed the Chestnut PAs and Agram Academy as well. Um, And so Scott has actually been on the show before a couple years ago talking about relational intelligence in the workplace with another Graham colleague and his co-author of Ne Flip, And so it was just great to have him back on the show and to hear his process as an Enneagram three, writing his new book and all that we can learn from this tool, both emotional intelligence and the Enneagram and how those really work together well. Um, and also I wanted to mention, because we did mention this in the episode as well, that on his podcast, the Evolving Leader, he has a number of guests that really kind of connect with. The way that he talks about, um, these concepts of emotional intelligence. So everything for you is linked in the show notes, but, um, just in case you want a quick overview, he had, um, A podcast episode called How Movement Can Free Your Mind with Caroline Williams, um, a podcast episode called The Power of Not Thinking with Simon Roberts. And then finally an episode called Thinking Outside the Brain with Annie Murphy Paul. So we'll discuss those in the episode today as well. But if you wanna go and listen to them after you listen to today's interview. Um, Then you can find those links in the show notes and it'll take you right to those episodes. So I think that's it. We did it. We're here, we are ready for, um, we're ready for this interview. So, here is our interview with Scott All. Well, welcome to the podcast, Scott. I'm so excited to have you here to talk about your new book.

Scott Allender:

Thanks, Steph. It's awesome to be back on your show. I love your, I love your podcast. I love what you do.

Steph Barron Hall:

Thanks so much. I think it's really interesting to talk about this. We were just chatting about how, you know, I've been in this process of writing a book and years is finally out in the world. Um, and I would love to talk about that a bit. But I also wanna hear more about your background because your book is called the Engram of Emotional Intelligence.

Scott Allender:

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall:

I'm just so curious like about your background and what the engram and emotional intelligence and kind of how you came to this point.

Scott Allender:

Yeah, so. I've been working, um, with people, leaders for many, many years, and one of the things that I have, uh, historically focused on at least much of the time is, uh, this idea of becoming more aware, more aware of who, um, who people are. As a leader, the impact they want to create, how that impacts their teams, how that impacts their organizations, how that impacts their personal lives, all of it. And so, um, a number of years ago I got certified in an emotional intelligence process as a coach. And that's the, the system that I base much of the framework of this book around. Um, and I've pursued many certifications in psychometric tools, um, Hogan and Myers-Briggs and things. But personally, um, the Enneagram journey for nearly like, for about the past decade or so, has been the most transformative for me. And so there's this like, two things happening. I've got my professional world where I'm using these tools and I've had my personal world where I'm going through this journey, and I just had this moment where I'm like, I really want to align, align these two things more explicitly, right? So if you're, if you're, if you're on an Enneagram journey, you're. Hopefully growing in emotional intelligence and all that that means, and we can define that in a bit if you want, so, as much as I liked working and I do like working with the emotional intelligence frameworks as part of the work I do with leaders, it's not the only thing I do. Um, I haven't found a lot of lasting. Or significant transformation by only focusing on that tool. Personally, I've been finding all of this transformation over the past, you know, several years on the Enneagram journey, and so I started teaching the Enneagram in workshops and organizations and things, but I wanted to bring the two systems very explicitly together. So that's kind of why I set out to write the book.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah, I mean I think it's such a, a great parallel because, um, that's one of like the key impacts of the, in agram, right? Is like having something that is a tool that we can use kind of as a mirror to understand ourselves and understand our relationships and things like that. Um, what was it about the concept of emotional intelligence? Like why did you kind of get into that in the first place?

Scott Allender:

Well, because the research, um, is overwhelming in its importance. So, you know, 70 to 75% of the reasons people succeed or fail in organizational life in particular is directly correlated to emotional intelligence measures, right? So, you know, we might develop a, an impressive pedigree of education and experiences, but the truth is our success is inextricably linked to. Emotional intelligence capability and the cornerstone of which is awareness. Now the research around awareness is a bit depressing. Um, about 13 to 15% of people are truly self-aware. So we have all this information that we know we need to develop an awareness. We have all these, um, emotional intelligence tools, really qualified coaches who are doing good work. But as I alluded to a moment ago, not really lasting, transformative, impactful transformation. People are still lacking in awareness, and you can look around the world and see that. I think we're fundamentally lacking in awareness. There's so much of what we're doing. It just comes from being very disconnected from who we truly are. And so I think part of the issue, Is that the emotional intelligence conversation and process tends to be far too logical and we end up bypassing the experience of emotions themselves

Steph Barron Hall:

Hmm.

Scott Allender:

and learning what feeling is actually trying to communicate to us. And in organizational life. I think that's particularly true because. While many organizations are starting to appreciate the importance of emotions in the role of leadership, there's often still a stigma or an assumption that emotions are kind of a weak and vulnerable thing, or they actually need to be, just be managed and pushed out of the way. And we need to get right into logical thinking. So even when we approach emotional intelligence, some of the conversations and the tactics and the. Behavioral changes that we try to communicate are needed to an individual who's being coached go far too heady, and they just skip over two very important things that the Enneagram illuminates, which is, what is my body saying? Right? Like our eight nines and ones friends right there in the body triad that that intelligence, what is that information communicating to me? What are my emotions communicating to me? And how am I thinking about thinking? So my metacognition, so the book, I focus a lot on bringing those intelligent centers together in a really intentional way. And that if we don't have a healthy handle on our thoughts, on how we're thinking about our thoughts and, and our belief systems that inform them if we're not connected to what our bodies are telling us. And if we're at a distance from our emotional experience. We just can't cultivate emotional intelligence. So your question is, why is it important, why you start there? The research is overwhelming, and yet we're not getting there. So this is my attempt at building upon an established, um, measured, data supported framework, like emotional intelligence, but trying to give us a different way to cultivate it.

Steph Barron Hall:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's absolutely necessary. And I, I think it's also really interesting because. I think we started talking about this concept a few years ago. Actually. I remember I was still in grad school and um, I wrote my thesis on, um, emotional intelligence and the Enneagram, like building it, building emotional intelligence Yeah. And interpersonal communication like, um, The efficacy of, of communication basically in, in those spaces. Um, of course using the word efficacy cuz it's academia and you have to use something like that. But, um, yeah, and, and really connecting the, in agram as a tool to build emotional intelligence. And so when I, you know, heard you were writing this book, I was like, oh my gosh, there's like so much. That this tool has to offer and really this writing has to offer. Um, and I do have one question for you, but before we go into that, I would love to hear, you know, why the engram, how did you get into the engram? What's your type?

Scott Allender:

Oh yeah, we should, we should back up and, and talk

Steph Barron Hall:

your story? Tell us your engram story.

Scott Allender:

um, well, I was, I was, I was familiar with the engram at a high level, but when I, when I came to Nashville, I felt like every single person I met. Ask me what my Enneagram type was. I think, I think it was, I think you have to sort of pledge allegiance to the Enneagram if you wanna live here. At least, you know, when it, when I first moved here, that seemed to be the case. Um, and I sat out on a journey to discover it. I started, uh, reading a ton, getting every book that everybody recommended. I really struggled to find my type,

Steph Barron Hall:

Hmm.

Scott Allender:

um, Anytime somebody described the nine core types to me, or I read about the nine core types, I'm like, ah, the three a little bit. But no, and maybe the one I tried on the one hat for a while and then for a second I tried on a little bit of the six hat and then I think a War eight hat for a while. None of it fit. I just was like, these aren't, these aren't right. Um, And there was two events in my life, um, that kind of propelled me to go deeper and want to really discover it. And one was, I was, um, I was part of, my friend was working on his PhD and he was running, um, a group of guy. He, he, he, well he amassed a group of guys and the whole idea was how can. We help men get better connected to their emotions and talk about emotions differently and even re relate to one another more vulnerably. And honestly, I'm, I'm, I'm redacting it, but that was kind of the, the gist. And we were sort of his, his, uh, lab rats for this first experiment. And, uh, day one it was, he had eight emotions written on the wall. And all you had to do in popcorn style fashion, there's like 15 guys in the room. 1215. Identify one or two of the emotions you're feeling, say them out loud, no context, no explanation. Just say it and just move on. And just thank somebody for saying it. And I couldn't identify any of'em. I was like, I don't know what I'm feeling. And what's interesting is some of the people in the room that I didn't even really know, a hunch what they were gonna say. Based on how they were looking at the words and the, the, I don't know how they were, something about what they were expressing. I was like, I don't know. And I was kind of getting close and yet scarily kind of going, but what do I feel?

Steph Barron Hall:

Hmm.

Scott Allender:

And I didn't know. Um, and so that set me off, uh, down a path of going deeper. Um, and I finally, I picked up Beatrice Chestnuts, uh, complete Enneagram 27 personality types. And when I finally got to the counter type of three self-preservation, three, the light bulbs went off and I was like, okay, okay, this, this is scally true. And I also resonated quite a bit to the self-preservation four description too, and I kind of went back and forth. But ultimately landing, I'm a self-preservation three who overuses the four wing? So that was, that was one big entry point. And then I had another, I write about this in the book, but I sort of start the book this way. Um, around about the same time I was on a business trip and driving down the street and I found, I thought I was having a cardiac event. Like suddenly out of nowhere I just felt my heart was erratically going and I felt like I was gonna faint and, um, lose control of the car and the whole thing. So I. I'm like trying. I'm in a rental car and I'm trying to make my way to the exit and I start dialing 9 1 1 on myself and I'm already embarrassed and scared and just, I thought, oh my gosh, this something's te. I've never had anything like this. Something terrible is happening and I pull into this parking lot. Happened to be a casino parking lot. Um, I don't know why that's important to the story, but I thought I'd throw that in. Um, and I, and then I could hear the ambulances coming and they give me the EKG and the whole thing. And anyway, I write about in more detail in the book. But, um, the long, the sh the short of it was, it wasn't a cardiac event. Had several tests later and stuff just to be sure. But, um, it was stored up anxiety and. Information that I had repressed that had been in my body, and it finally decided it was time to come screaming out and awaken me to some things that I hadn't, um, been connected to. Uh, namely in many ways my own emotional experience. So threes being right at the center of the heart triad are. Brilliant at using feelings as you would know Steph, to understand the emotional expectations and of the room and what other people might be feeling or wanting from us. And really terrible at connecting to what we're feeling ourselves because we're so concerned with what the room wants. I dunno, you're, you, you identify as a three, but how does. I'd be curious to hear some of your experiences with connecting to your own emotions or if any of that rings true for you.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. Well, it's actually really funny. I hear. I mean, another theme I hear commonly with threes is, um, I found myself in the ER cuz I was overworked, burned out, having panic attacks, et cetera. Um, but I actually have, you know, I loved that you opened your book with that, that story. And I, and that's the, the thing I kind of wanted to come back and ask you about is like that connecting the body, mind, heart experience. Because I think S three s, even though our heart tells us a lot, A lot of the time we don't let it out. And so sometimes our body ends up telling us the thing. So I have a really similar story. Um, when I was first interested in the Enneagram, I, um, was trying to figure out like, how do I actually apply this? How do I actually use this? Right? I, I wanted something applicable and I wasn't really finding that in a lot of the, the reading that I was doing or the podcast listening or whatever. Um, But I remember one morning I was driving to work and I reached to turn up the radio and suddenly I was like, wait, I don't care about this. Like, I don't, I don't care about what's on the radio. And so I just like turned it off instead. And I recognized, oh, okay. I fill my mind with all this chatter from everything else because there's something else happening. And I, all I could identify is like, I feel icky, like. That's the word, icky. And just the rest of my drive, which, you know, was very slow because it was Southern California. So, um, the rest of my drive, I spent just like, okay, you know, what's happening here? What, what am I feeling? Um, and I think I was able to untangle that it was anxiety, um, but I didn't know. Why or what that was connected to. Um, and so I've just had this really long process as of, as well of like getting a lot more in touch with emotions and at some point being like, I just wish I could bottle it all back up because I'm so tired. You know, I'm so tired of it all. It's like not, not very efficient at all, you know, um, to be emotional all the time. And then, yeah, it's just a whole thing.

Scott Allender:

Yeah, yeah. Oh, I've, I've made that comment more than once. Um, especially when you get connected as a three to the primary emotion that sits below the surface of awareness, which is sadness.

Steph Barron Hall:

Mm-hmm.

Scott Allender:

And I don't like always being more connected to sadness. It was a little ignorance as bliss sometimes is, is a nice, is a nice thing. But you know what, it, it came pouring outta me. There was the truth is, I wasn't looking for that moment. Um, it happened. I was sort of forced to lay down, uh, in a casino parking lot and start a journey of taking inventory,

Steph Barron Hall:

Mm-hmm.

Scott Allender:

um, and connecting to all the things that I thought I could just push aside for another day and just keep performing, keep going, keep reaching, and I was in a perfectly good mood. I, you know, there was nothing going on. That was the thing, right? I hadn't gone through a bad day. I hadn't had something happen to me One minute I'm singing along to the radio and just grooving, and the next minute I was being, you know, the alarms went off.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. Well, and I also think that the role of self deceit plays in here too, because we believe, okay, if I don't seem sad, then I'm not,

Scott Allender:

Right,

Steph Barron Hall:

or if I don't seem emotional, then I'm not.

Scott Allender:

right,

Steph Barron Hall:

But how you seem doesn't actually change how you are, which is mind boggling, I think.

Scott Allender:

right. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall:

So then you. Bring your reader into this experience with you. Um, and now you're kind of helping them to develop emotional intelligence, um, right through the lens of the engram and through the lens of this framework. Um, what was it like for you to write this,

Scott Allender:

Hmm. was moments where I felt very much in my type, um, as I was writing it. Um, for all the growth work I've been doing, it's like, you know, I'm still working a very demanding. Fulfilling, demanding job full-time. And I'm like, well, and I've got kids and I've got my wife and I've got all the things and I, you know, I'm hosting a podcast myself and I'm doing all this stuff. And I'm like, but I'll just write on the weekends and I'll get up at four in the morning and I'll write some more. And there was several moments where I had to, um, Pause and make sure I was reconnecting authentically to my own experience of this and how I was feeling about it and not just getting into production mode because I've got a deadline. So I did take a few days off here and there, and I did a little, uh, writing retreat and try to create space where I could focus on it, not at the expense of other things in my life. Um, but there was times when I got, you know, so it was, it was. A mixture. There was, if I'm honest, there was a mixture. There was times when it was just full on etic trying to create. And then there was times when I felt that I, you know, I paused a few things so I could focus more intentionally. Cause at the end of the day, I really wanted to make sure I was contributing something good to the conversation and, um, not just trying to accomplish something.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's, Well, I'm, I'm curious if you can map like the self-preservation instinct with that as well. Because, I mean, all of us want to contribute something meaningful, um, of course, but I think that almost like the ability to push through can be a very self press three thing, whereas, I don't know, I feel like I don't have that gear anymore. I'm like, oh, I don't feel like doing it. I need to regain that, that gear,

Scott Allender:

No. Maybe that's good. Maybe that's, that's, that sounds like

Steph Barron Hall:

It. It could be good. It could be bad too. It could be bad.

Scott Allender:

Uh, yeah. Um, as a self press three, I think that's a good question. I'll tell you the thing that comes to mind is, The willingness to expose all the parts of myself in this book.

Steph Barron Hall:

Mm-hmm.

Scott Allender:

Um, I was fighting it at times, right? Like, do I, like, when I started writing that opening story, I'm like, do I really want, that's a story that when it happened, I thought I would never share it with a soul. Well, I shared it with a couple people who I knew it had happened to. Um, but I was like, I'm not gonna broadcast such a thing. Right? That doesn't feel, I mean, I know of eights get all the credit for not wanting to be vulnerable, but I think, um, self-preservation dominant with social repressed, which is me, you don't necessarily want to go push all the vulnerable parts out into the world. And so that I had to fight through, um, Yeah. And I do think there's, you know, clearly workaholic tendencies that happen with the self press three, maybe more than other variations. But, um, I don't know. I, I feel like, um, I feel like I'm, I think I'm getting better at that myself. I think, I think I'm learning when to connect to the fact that I don't feel like really doing something or I feel like prioritizing something else. So through the book writing process, I just had to really think about what I'm gonna prioritize and how make sure my health stays intact and I don't end up with more anxiety because of this thing where I'm trying to actually help. I'm ultimately trying to help people find paths to healing. And that's the other part that's missing from the emotional intelligence conversation. You know, if you look at it from an engram perspective, each of us in personality are sort of wearing these. One of these nine masks, and it's covering so much of who we really are, right? Like we've been talking about my, my, our own feelings inside the sadness and all the things, right? Well, the performance mask will cover it, and all the types have the masks. And from that lower level of awareness, from that incomplete place. We're presenting people with all this information about emotional intelligence, and we're saying, change this now. Change that. You need more of this, more of that. We might not say it that directly, but we coach them through it and try to say, okay, how can I dial this down? And it becomes this sort of act of willpower to try to make changes. Basically adjusting the position of the mask itself as opposed to, why am I wearing this mask at all? What's, if I took this mask off, what would be underneath? And for me, this has been a journey of constantly learning to see when I've put the mask back on, how to take it off, connect with who I really am. And if people could find a way to do that and find a way to. Heal the parts of themselves that they're defending against with their personality. We don't need to talk about emotional intelligence anymore.

Steph Barron Hall:

Mm-hmm. I'm wondering if you can give us an example of what that might look like really concretely. Um, cuz when I, you know, hear you say heal the parts of their person or themselves that they're defending against with their personality, I feel like, I'm like, yeah, yeah, that sounds amazing. But I'm curious if that's just because, you know, we're in the same like Enneagram spaces and, and probably breeding a lot of the same material and and whatnot. And I'm curious if there's a way that you can, like, Put that on practically for maybe a specific type, what that might look like.

Scott Allender:

Yeah. Um, let me, so I type one comes to mind. Um, so a type one, um, often wearing a mask that, um, is trying to protect against the emotional vice of anger, right? They're trying to conceal it. They're living a story oftentimes of feeling that it wasn't okay to make mistakes as a young person. That um, things are either good, bad, left, right, black or white, and there's a performance standard that they have to achieve. And so they're always setting about in their life, trying to measure up to an internalized ideal of what good looks like. Never getting there. Always feeling a sense of frustration and anger and irritation that they're not there. And oftentimes just using the defense mechanism of reaction formation, trying to project something different to the world because they were told that anger's a quote unquote bad emotion.

Steph Barron Hall:

Mm-hmm.

Scott Allender:

So removing the mask is to learn to become curious and question that story and trace it back to what, what did I internalize? Um, a get connected to the anger they're trying to repress, and b, by confronting the story, the, the origin story, the wounding message that informed so much of that. Can start the process of trying to heal those wounds, those wounding messages, to then start to release the mask. Cuz what the ones trying to do, and this is true of all types, they think if they can finally improve enough things and make life look good enough, then they'll find serenity. But that'll never come from that strategy, right? The serenity is letting go of the expectation or belief of perfectionism or that there's. An ultimate right way or ultimate one way, or that they could ever be good enough that they already are good enough, they don't need to perform for that. And you can go through all nine types and realize there's a wounding message that is behind every one of our over identifications with our type, and we need to go into that and confront that and face all of that. And it's, it's, it's a. It's an act of courage. I wrote, I have a chapter in the book called an Act of Courage because it really is an act of courage to confront these very sometimes painful parts of ourselves.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. Yeah, it absolutely is. And I, um, even as you were talking about that, I was kind of thinking about, you know, examples in my own life of, of how that shows up. And I think it's interesting when we actually can take a step back and look at how much effort we put into changing. Not, because we're not trying to change the belief, we're not trying to change our mind, we're just trying to change, to defend against the experience or the pain that would, it would, that would arise naturally from confronting the belief, right? Whether that's confronting the belief that, you know, okay, what if I am corrupt? What if I am bad, you know, um, for type one, or. Like, and, and kind of what that, what I mean is also like what if I am a lot of different things and not just one good person, but what if there are bad and, and good parts to me, you know,

Scott Allender:

Mm.

Steph Barron Hall:

well, type three. It's like really confronting, like this experience of worthlessness I think in a lot of ways of, of like I need to have some sense of, of. Worth. And the only way I know how to get that is not inside, it's outside and confronting that. Um, and I love that you named, you know, one of the chapters in Act of Courage because truly, like you were saying earlier, I think a lot of the issues that, that I see in my own life, um, is actually being like, okay, now I'm gonna go apply. This information. That's, that's where we, that's where we all get stuck. You know? We're all like, okay, I read 28 self-help books last year. Congratulations me. And it's like, okay. And, and what changes have you made? Oh, wait, what?

Scott Allender:

Yeah. Yeah, completely. Um, yeah, it really is, you know, growth is gonna require a bit of suffering and, uh, you have to kind of decide, you know, which, which, which pain you're gonna live, right? The pain of, um, constantly trying to avoid. Confronting those stories or questioning those beliefs, you know, living in automatic reactivity and often getting results that you don't want both personally and professionally, or the pain you might have to endure by going inside, right? To not be the three who goes, I'm gonna keep trying to do, look externally for the thing that's missing and I need to go inside and find it and seek resources to help me heal it.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. What is something that you can give like practically, you know, maybe not by type, but just like any practical tips that you have for people who are kind of interested in this, starting out on this journey. I mean, obviously the biggest tip is go get your book, but.

Scott Allender:

Yeah, that's the biggest tip. Buy the book. Buy, buy two

Steph Barron Hall:

to your podcast, evolving Leader. It's a great

Scott Allender:

And then you, then it's all done. You're, you're all better. You won't have to buy the 28 health self, self-help books. You'll have the right one. I'm just kidding. Um. Uh, I think so common to all types, right? So there's type specific journeys that people need to set, set themselves on. Um, but to talk across all types, one of the things I think that's, at least in my experience, an observation tends to get, um, overlooked and I think it needs a lot more attention. We alluded to this earlier, is. Reconnecting to our bodies.

Steph Barron Hall:

Hmm.

Scott Allender:

our bodies telling us? You know, the body information. Our bodies know things before our minds or our hearts ever could. Right? Our, the gift of our eight, nine, and one friends, and I'm not saying eights, nines, and ones are always connected and have sensitivity to what their bodies are telling them. They're more oriented towards it. Um, and I think what that sys, what the body types point us to is what neuroscience is. Uh, progressively uncovering, which is, um, that signals from the body are constantly being sent up, the vagus nerve, and our brains are trying to interpret what those signals are telling us. So it signals constantly coming from our internal organs, right? So our brains are helping to regulate what the body is doing and will then alert us, construct an emotion, a feeling, or something to let us know if something's wrong, but also, you know, what's going on around us, our bodies. Um, there's been a lot of studies on New York Stock Exchange or, um, experiments where people are put into groups and they're, um, you know, the, there's a two decks of cards and one deck of card has reward and something positive and one has something negative, and they hook people up to these, um, Sensors, I don't know what they call'em. Um, and are able to measure the fact that even before the mind understands that one card is good and one card is bad, one card has a reward, one has a consequence, if you will, the body is sending signals, right? There's changes. The hair on the neck stands up.

Steph Barron Hall:

Mm-hmm.

Scott Allender:

for, to build awareness, right? So this book is called Emotional Intelligence, but. It is the interplay, like I said earlier, of the body, the emotions and the mind. So simple things like body scans are a good way to increase interceptive, I'm sorry, interceptive sensitivity. Um, because interceptions happening, but we're not always aware of what it's, what's happening. So what if we're not aware of it? Sometimes what we can conflate is physical feeling with emotional feeling, right? So you can end up, you know, maybe you're just. Under-resourced in some way, right? You're, you're depleted, you're tired, but you're interpreting it as an emotion of feeling depressed or even anxious or sad or something else going on. And you're wondering what's going on emotionally. But it, it could be that your body's under-resourced. You haven't had enough sleep, you haven't had your exercise, you didn't have your, you know, your snack this morning, whatever you've done, right? So there's getting connected with the body. So body scans being that you find a quiet place. Do some cleansing breaths or even when you wake up in the morning, you can do this before you get outta bed and just literally focus attention from the top of the head and pay attention what's going on there. Am I noticing anything? Don't judge it. Don't do anything with it. Don't try to change it. Just pay attention and you slowly work your focus of attention down your face and your neck and your chest, and your arms and your hands and your whole body. Doing that regularly can really help you. Pay attention. I also write about in the book, um, a trick I learned, uh, somebody showed me you put a pulter on your finger and set a timer for a minute and, uh, try to tune into your heart and count your heartbeats. And then at the end of the minute, check the pulter results against what. You thought and see how closely aligned they are, and the more closely aligned they are, the more connected you are to what's happening in your body. So that's a very kind of simple, uh, and there's other things to do as well. And then the emotional connection, right? It's, um, you know, there's, uh, checking it, doing feelings, check-ins, I, you know, with, um, With your team, with, um, with yourself. What am I really feeling? Making a journal of that, um, slowing down long enough to pay attention to that. I, I, I can't understate enough the importance of just mindfulness meditation, tuning into the breath. I think, um, five minutes a day, 10 minutes a day of breath work. And it's slowing down long enough to observe physically, emotionally. What's going on and connecting all of that to the, to the mind as well. Um, and I think what all types can do too is especially when they feel triggered in some way, is practicing pausing long enough to observe the emotion. What's behind this? Why am I about to react this way? Why do I feel like saying this thing that might not be productive and then get really, um, you know, Curious and, and be inquisitive about what am I believing right now about this situation? What thoughts am I holding about this person or this situation? Are those thoughts objectively true? What else could be informing them? What am I physically feeling right now? What am I emotionally feeling right now? Creating a space to kind of compassionately interrogate what's going on. Those are common to all types. In addition to whatever type specific path of development you need to be walking,

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah, I'm really

Scott Allender:

what would you add to that list, Steph?

Steph Barron Hall:

Well, I mean, I think that like listening to you talk about this, we all want tips and tricks, right? That's why we read so many. I mean, I'm talking about myself. I'm just telling on myself. I love self-help books, like pop psychology books. Oh my gosh, yes. Everything about them. So I read a lot of them. Um, and the thing that I've taken away from them is like, We want rocket science. That's what we think that will fix us. But it's just the same things. It's mindfulness, meditation, um, you know, body scans like that, that whole bucket. Um, journaling, getting in tune with your emotions, drinking enough water, moving your body as you're able, like those sorts of things actually make a huge difference. And we want something really different and unique. Um, And it really, it's just the simple stuff, but you just have to do it. That's really the only trick that there is. Um,

Scott Allender:

there's no hacking. There's no hacks.

Steph Barron Hall:

why not? I want, I want, I want a hack, but, um, yeah. No, I, I really appreciate that. And I think, um, one, one thing that came up while you were describing that is like, does the research show that you can then change? The feeling or like interpret a different feeling, like you were mentioning. Okay, our body sends signals to our brain and we think, oh, it's X, Y, and z. Um, do you, is it possible or has there been research on like, if you change your brain, you can change the feeling?

Scott Allender:

Yeah, well, emotions, it's, it's being more widely understood, still somewhat debated, but I think it's inevitable that the neuroscience community will by and large conclude that, you know, emotions are constructed in the brain. They're not like the inside out movie, unfortunately. Cause I really like that movie, but it's not, Now the experience of emotions in terms of accessing sadness and things like that, that the movie portrays is a hundred percent true, right? Like she needed to access sadness in that movie, if I remember correctly. Um, but they're not these little like trip buttons, right? Like I can just go find and how can I hack and find the right trip buttons? And we do that a lot, right? I wanna always feel good. So I do all these things which are often bad for me. Um, But the emotional construction approach, which is that because of the interceptive process was happening and your brain constantly trying to make predictions about what will happen based on past experience constructs an emotion so that we have access to all that information in a way that we wouldn't have otherwise. So the whole point of an emotion is to experience it, live it, feel it. And get curious about it. Question it not, not interrogated or get mad about it if it's an uncomfortable emotion. Sit in all uncomfortable. The most uncomfortable emotions usually have the most information, right? There's a disconnect between what the brain expects or predicts and what the body's ex telling you and when, but when you get curious and compassionately question what's underneath it, again, going back to my earlier comment about what am I believing? What am I seeing? What thoughts am I holding right now? If you, if you allow yourself to go that deep into what is helping to construct that emotional experience, you might reach some different conclusions or you might, you might be able to change a direction that you're traveling or there's something, the emotion's trying to awaken you to. It doesn't mean the emotion's objectively true, it's just alerting you. They're alert signals and by getting curious, I think we can sometimes, Challenge the beliefs we held or we can challenge the assumptions we were making, or we can engage in a conversation with somebody in a different way than we might have otherwise. And then that process will evoke new emotions, often more pleasant emotions cuz we get a better outcome than when we just react out of emotional reactivity without actually getting connected to what created the emotion to begin with.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that there, there, I've seen some research on that too, where it's like, The more you do intrapersonal communication, like within the self Well interpersonal communication improves because they're always happening concurrently. I think the only thing that I. Also wanted to add to that, you know, just cuz I have to add every something to everything you say, um, is just like what you were mentioning before about, um, Being really compassionate about it because we all have these coping mechanisms that we've needed and they're survival strategies. Like even the ways that, um, our personalities have defended us throughout life. Like we absolutely needed those things. Um, but now we wanna do something different because we are adults and we can choose. And so we don't wanna choose, you know, our five year old coping strategies anymore. Um, and I think that's just like something to remember cuz for those of us who can be fairly self-critical, it can be hard to be like, ah, You piece of shit you're doing that again, you know, uh, or, or I mean that, that's the easiest place to go, but instead, you know, we're advocating for, for a different approach even to that.

Scott Allender:

I, yeah. Thank you for putting a fine point on that cuz compassion, self-compassion, and self friendship isn't just important. It's foundational to any true transformation because you'll never guilt or shame yourself into a better result. And that's not the point, right? We're not, why would anybody want to go on that, that path, right? It's by understanding more and more about our type, it should produce a lot more self empathy and compassion. It should. It should. Because you start to go, oh, that's, that's what that is. Right? That's the fear. That's the story I'm still holding onto from when I'm 10. Like you start to get there and you know, EMDR has been really helpful for me in

Steph Barron Hall:

Mm-hmm.

Scott Allender:

um, kind of going back and being guided back into some of those stories with some professional help in that process of that left, right brain activation and, and kind of literally revisiting that from an adult perspective and trying to offer my, the child within some, some hope,

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah.

Scott Allender:

some some healing.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. And like undoing those shame narratives

Scott Allender:

Mm.

Steph Barron Hall:

for, I think for threes especially. Um, Yeah. I love it. I, I love that it's, you know, being really, uh, clear, but also like giving a lot of hope, um, for our listeners and also readers, uh, of this, of your new book. Um, okay. I'm sure we could talk about this all day. I have one last question before we jump into like the final round, which is, what was the most surprising thing about writing this book for you?

Scott Allender:

Hmm.

Steph Barron Hall:

Surprising for yourself or about the research that you did?

Scott Allender:

Uh, that's a good question. I haven't been asked that yet. I think, um, I was surprised. I think that, uh, I'm very, I'm very, uh, long-winded as you might be able to tell from some of my answers to your questions. Um, but when I write, I'm not long-winded at all. In fact, I, um, I was, I was struggling at parts to expand all my thoughts. And I, and I, I think if there's a next book, um, I will use more of my verbal, I will probably talk into a recorder a bit more and process. I'm a verbal processor, so when I'm writing and I'm not talking, I was, uh, I'm like, wow, I can get on a podcast and I could wax poetic for six hours straight on this stuff, but I'm writing and it wasn't coming that way. And so, um, there was a bit of a journey in that to how do I, how do I communicate as freely as I tend to, to do when I'm talking? So that was a bit surprising cause I thought I, I could, I thought I could bang it out quicker in that way.

Steph Barron Hall:

You know what we all, we all think that. Writing is easier than it is. Like, it's just so hard. Like, I, I did have somebody during my process of writing my book too, be like, so what's hard about it? I was like, have you ever written a book? And he's like, no, but what's hard about it? And I'm like, I,

Scott Allender:

Just start writing and you tell me.

Steph Barron Hall:

yeah. I, I mean, I, I don't know. I don't know how to say what's hard about it. It's just hard.

Scott Allender:

yeah. Or you'll write it on the whole page and you go, this is really good. Why does this feel familiar? It's like, oh, I basically already wrote this page once before. Right. you

Steph Barron Hall:

Or I, I, read this in a book three years ago and I almost verbatim wrote it again. Cool. Great

Scott Allender:

You're like, I'm prolific.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. Um, okay. Final questions that I ask everyone because secretly I just like to pad my own reading list. But, um, tell me about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year. We know that your book has shaped you, but what other books.

Scott Allender:

Um. I'm gonna point to a couple non Enneagram books cause there definitely were those, um, but the Extended Mind by Annie Murphy Paul, uh, which is all about the power of thinking outside the brain and there's a lot of interesting research, the stuff we've been talking about. Sorry, I'm turned around looking at my bookshelf. Um, also move by Caroline Williams and her research on. How our brains ha have evolved for movement and the importance of movement. Um, not just cuz it's good to do or even for the interceptive part, which is extremely important, but literally our cognitive. Capacity and capability is so tied to movement and there's like more and more research. So, um, it was very motivating for me to, you know, especially having the last three years, mostly working from home and not moving nearly as much as I should. It's set me on a path of more intentional movement and even taking movement breaks, which has been really helpful. Like, just it's time to get up and move. Like, I don't have to go run a marathon. I'm gonna get up and move. So those two books, um, were really, really important for my life. Um, This last uh, year.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah, I love it. I'm so excited to read them, especially move. That sounds really interesting. Um, it's another aside, really quick. Um, I, I saw this, um, psychologist actually talking about for adhd. How for, I think it's for executive function, but I can't remember exactly. Um, Balancing on one foot is really helpful. Like if you balance spend time balancing on one foot, um, and then you go and do your work, you might have an easier time.

Scott Allender:

I am gonna try that. I'm not officially diagnosed, but I suspect I've got some of that and I might give it a go. I'll let you know how I progress.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah, yeah, let me know. Okay. Finally, what is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Scott Allender:

I think. I might have to quote the renowned philosopher Mick Jagger.

Steph Barron Hall:

Love it.

Scott Allender:

Um,

Steph Barron Hall:

I knew it wasn't gonna be an actual philosopher. When you said renowned philosopher, I was like, no, this is gonna be somebody different.

Scott Allender:

uh, when he said, you can't always get what you want, uh, but if you try, sometimes you just might find you get what you need and is trite or whatever sort of humorous that might sound. There's actually a great deal of. Truth in that for me as a three. Um, so three is, you know, often vainly, uh, believing that nothing would really get done or get done right without them. Um, and with all these ambitions and sort of just trying to go after all these things that we want and affect, change and take, you know, and yet when you return to. I dunno if you've ever talked about holy ideas on this show, but I know you've, you've talked a lot about vices and virtue. So vice being, uh, the emotional passion, uh, in lower levels of awareness and the virtue being the, the true emotional center and higher awareness. Um, coming with that, the sort of highest, most accurate way of thinking is revealed through these sort of holy ideas. Um, and so for threes. There's three of them. There's holy hope and holy law and holy harmony. And to just really redact it down cuz it's, it's a complex, very detailed piece of work that's been done around those ideas. Um, is that a three learns to understand that things are unfolding according to a plan and there's universal laws at work and not. Everything requires their specific effort to make it happen. And they can, they can sit into like this harmonization with all of creation and ex and, and, and know and rest and hope and, and sort of some, you know, faith and almost a certainty that they're gonna get what they need, even if they don't get what they want or what their personality or their ego thinks that they want. So, That that lyric actually is a, is a good, I think, um, artistic rendering of, of kind of the what, the, what the holy idea is when the three really returns to their truest self.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. I mean, I never would've thought of it that way, but that's a really beautiful interpretation of it. Um, especially because it's so easy for us to just think I can reform the entire world to fit my will, and it's actually, that's what we think we, we need, but it's not,

Scott Allender:

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall:

yeah. Well, this has been lovely. I'm so glad we're able to to chat and can you just tell everyone where they can find you online where they can buy your

Scott Allender:

Yeah. Well, thank you for having me on, Steph. It's such a joy to always talk to you and, and you were so important in this process for me personally. Um, uh, from early conversations when I said I wanted to write a book and, and all of your support, I, I just can't thank you enough. So, so thank you for that. Um, and yeah, so, um, scott e all.com, uh, you can go to there and find links to buying the book. Um, Or anywhere, uh, online books are sold. Um, I'm also told it's gonna be at, uh, about 50 airports around the country. So if you're in an airport and you're looking for something to read, uh, stop by your local airport bookstore. Um, follow me on EQ Enneagram on Instagram, and I post content periodically there. Um, and you can also find me hosting the Evolving Leader Podcast and you can find, uh, at Evolving Leader on LinkedIn or. Instagram,

Steph Barron Hall:

I love it. I will link all those in the show notes. Thank you so much again.

Scott Allender:

thank you.

Steph Barron Hall:

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify