Liberating Financial Mindsets as an Enneagram 2 with Tori Dunlap

1:37

Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in real life. A podcast that will help you go beyond any grand theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Baron hall, creator of nine types co on Instagram, author of the Enneagram in love, accredited Enneagram, professional, and ennea curious human, just like you be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram and your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now onto the show. Hello friends. Welcome back to Enneagram. IRL. I'm so thrilled to be with you again today. And I know I said, I'm on a bit of a break, which I am, trust me. I'm still taking a break. However, Today's guest has a brand new book that comes out today. So I just wanted you to be the first to hear about it through this conversation. This guest's actually hurt. The only reason I ever heard about Tik TOK is because of today's guests actually, um, a number of years ago. And she was just one of those people on my bucket list of guests, of, of who I'd be like, oh my gosh, this person would be awesome to have on the podcast. So. I'm thrilled to introduce you to Tori Dunlap. Tori is an internationally recognized money and career expert and podcast host after saving a hundred thousand dollars at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded her first 100 K to fight financially inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She's helped over 3 million women negotiate salary, pay off debt, build savings and invest. She's the host of the number one business podcast, financial feminist author of the upcoming book out today. Financial feminist from Harper Collins. And co-creator of treasury and investing education platform that has over$30 million invested which has been featured on New York times business front page Tory's work has also been featured on good morning, America. The today show NBC fortune, BBC, and more. And Tori is also a Forbes 30 under 30 honoree. Tori now travels the world writing and speaking about personal finance, online business and confidence for women and her. Very first book financial feminist comes out today. Like I mentioned, so it's hitting your shelves or internet pages or wherever you like to buy books. So I really recommend grabbing it in today's episode. We're going to talk a lot about Tori's Enneagram type, because of course she's a fan of the Enneagram. And we also talk a little bit about, you know, Personal and professional lives with using the Enneagram. And talking about our very first financial memories and why that's important and why that really matters for understanding ourselves and investigating. You know, what's behind the stories that we like to tell ourselves about money, or maybe we don't even like to tell them, but it just comes up naturally. And then Tori also gives us three practical financial steps that we can begin right now. So if you're anything like me and maybe it's not a new year's resolution, but you're like, okay, I want to kind of delve into this topic a little bit more. Tori's book is a great place to start. You can also check out her podcast, which I love again. That's called financial feminist. And you can find Tori all over the internet at her first 100 K. So that's on Instagram and Tik talk, or you can connect with her on her website, which is her first 100 k.com. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Tori. I hope you love it. I hope you have. Fantastic financial takeaways from today, and I'm so thrilled to introduce you to today's Enneagram, to, to our Dunlap.

Steph Barron Hall: 5:19

Well, Tori, thanks so much for being here and joining me on Ngram I R l. I am thrilled to chat with you.

Tori Dunlap: 5:26

Thank you. so much for having me. I'm digging the, the back a part of your space that seems so soothing. I'm like, I want to be right where you are.

Steph Barron Hall: 5:33

I love looking at it on Zoom especially because I can like see it like a mirror. Maybe I should have a mirror or two in front of me so I can always look at it because what's that direction is not as nice.

Tori Dunlap: 5:43

Right? I, I love it.

Steph Barron Hall: 5:45

Yeah. Thanks so much. Um well, I'm really excited to chat with you because I think a lot of the time I hear from people who ask questions. Like sometimes I'll, I'll throw out Enneagram questions. They're like, how do I spend money with my Enneagram type? And I'm like, look, I'm not the person to ask about this. Um, I've partnered with a few, you know, different creators like that in the past, but I always love to point people toward your work or, or others who I know. Offering like really fantastic and practical financial advice. So I, I just really appreciate that.

Tori Dunlap: 6:18

thank you. Yeah, and I am obsessed with the Enneagram, as anybody in my life will tell you, and so it's just been really fun consuming your content as well.

Steph Barron Hall: 6:26

Yeah. So tell me about yourself. Tell me about your type, you know, all that good stuff.

Tori Dunlap: 6:31

Sure. So I'll give you, uh, my classic story and then I'll give you my, my type, which surprises a lot of people actually. So, um, I was a friend who all my friends came to for financial advice. I had parents who were committed to teaching me about money growing up, and I thought that was just normal. I thought everybody knows. Not to overspend on credit cards. Everybody knows how to save money, and of course you realize that that isn't the case. I graduated college in May of 2016 with degrees in organizational communication, which is like marketing with less math and theater. Did not study finance, did not even study business technically. And uh, of course, Donald Trump gets elected like four months after I graduate college. And I thought I was going to be coming into adulthood and really into womanhood in a very different country than we all got, as I think many of us figured. And I started realizing through my own research, through my own financial, my, my financial journey, as well as, again, everybody was coming to me for advice and guidance that. we don't have any sort of equality for any marginalized group until we have financial equality. And so I was working in nine to five in marketing, and then her first a hundred k was born on the side of that, really out of, uh, me exploring more about inequality money and how when I had money, I had choices. I had the ability to leave a bad situation. I had the ability to start a business. I had ability to, uh, you know, take a vacation without guilt. And I. Was really committed to how do I get more money into more women's hands? And so the her first under K origin story was me attempting to save a hundred K at 25. I successfully achieved that goal. Went on vacation with my best friend, got the call for Good Morning America, uh, in a pub in London. came home, did the interview, and quit my job three weeks later. That was late 2019. And then the rest has been crazy since then. So we're a community now of over three and a half million, uh, people. I teach women all over the world how to pay off debt, how to save money, how to start investing. We have a podcast called Financial Feminists. We have a book that just released called Financial Feminists as well. And, um, this is my life's work. This is what I always believe or I, what I believe I was put on this earth to do in terms of Mya Grande type. Um, Am a two and a very, very classic two in many, many ways, especially in my personal relationships. I think though a lot of the, um, difficulties that twos have, though I have worked very hard in the last couple years to, uh, either. Not overcome necessarily, but to, you know, uh, to understand more of why I would default to that and then learn to not default to that. And so I have a lot of eight traits as well, especially my public persona is a very kind of eight fuck'em up kind of, kind of thing. Um, my wings though, I was a two wing one for a very long time. I think when I first took the Enneagram a couple years ago, it was two wing one, but like very close. And really now, uh, I took it recently probably about six months ago, and I was a two wing three. Um, so my wings are kind of split between one and three. There's, there's a little bit of both. Um, but yeah, especially in my romantic relationship, especially in my personal relationships, I am very, very, very much a.

Steph Barron Hall: 9:44

Yeah, that, that's so fascinating because you're right, like I think. is shown on Instagram in these different spaces. Um, I think is not what people, because I think what I really like about you in, in the way that you create your content is like you really go at hard issues with kind of like this boldness that I think people don't think of as very type two. Like, like you said, maybe that's a bit of an eight trait, but also I think it's coming from a sense of passion for you. Um, and a lot of the time people forget that about.

Tori Dunlap: 10:19

Yeah. I mean, I joke that I am literally the real life, Leslie. Nope. Like I had never seen myself more in a character than when I first watched Parks and Recreation. And I think that, that, that's the interesting thing about being a public person is I have very much this, like how outer shell exterior, which is not inauthentic, but is the like, fuck'em up. You can't do anything say into anything to me that's, that's gonna hurt me. But really when people are mean, especially people who like I actually respect or, um, want to win over, like typically women, I don't care when men are mean to me. Like I don't fucking give a shit. But like specifically when women are that like. Opens up the hard exterior and showcases the two of, but if we just got to know each other, maybe you would like me, and I

Steph Barron Hall: 11:09

win you over

Tori Dunlap: 11:10

in. Yeah. I go into Woo, right When other's over, I go into that immediately and I'm something I'm very good at. And then literally like Leslie, nope. If you find somebody that you can't do that to, my brain does not compute. I'm like, how do I get this person like me? in a way that I think has to be curved with, okay, you can do your best and you still might not get it. and that's okay because you don't like everybody Tori, and it's okay that not everybody likes you. Um, so I think, yeah, a lot of the, like the way I've always explained Enneagram, and you can tell me if this is bullshit to my friends who don't know anything about it or don't understand it, is it's like, I think the Enneagram type you are is you, if you did no work on yourself or like you at your like default almost. W not worst, but like your default state if your higher self does not take over. And for me that is just like, love me please. I just wanna love you and I just want you to love me. And like it doesn't make any sense when you don't. And so I think that, um, there's a lot of like classic two things that I, I don't do anymore or have, have worked through that are on the more negative side. But I also love being a two because like there's just so much love there. Uh, yeah. I will walk, you know, 500 miles for you if I need to. Now, granted, I need you to thank me at the end, but I will walk 500 miles for you and I'll do anything for the people that I care about. Um, and so in that way, I really, really love being a two.

Steph Barron Hall: 12:45

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. And I think, you know, especially with that description of the, your type or the Enneagram, I think that's especially true when we see these very stereotype descriptions or like even just like the more flat descriptions, um, of the types, because those are kind of like that average range of, of people who haven't done a lot of work and. Typically we're not so stuck in our ways. Um, hopefully once we've, you know, kind of started to expand and work on ourselves a bit,

Tori Dunlap: 13:15

Yeah, and I think that's one of the things I love about your content is it was never very two-dimensional because yeah, twos are often the like, they will sacrifice themselves and then, you know, no matter what. And I'm like, sometimes that's true and sometimes I do get resentful. I see that a hundred percent. And there's other times where I'm like, no, I don't have to be the person at the party who's constantly getting people drinks. Now sometimes I am, and then sometimes I'm not. And that's, yeah. So I think it is, uh, just with any personality typing in general, it's very easy to just. Yeah, to default into a stereotype while also realizing, and again, one of the things I love about the Enneagram is it acknowledges, it's like, yeah, you have a core type, you also have a wing, and then you swing to different types depending on, you know, a variety of different things. Or you might show up as a different type. Like, I'm dating another two. And so it's very interesting to be like two on two sounds fakely sexual, but to have a two dating the two, um, there's definitely times where I see you. Myself swing to another type in order to accommodate him like being a two. So it's interesting.

Steph Barron Hall: 14:23

That's so interesting and I, I could imagine that being a, like a really good combination actually. Um, a lot of the time same type pairings don't work out as well, but I think with the type two, It's so easy for you to sense what other people are feeling and experiencing and it's must be so nice to have somebody who can do that too for you.

Tori Dunlap: 14:43

we always joke, you know, one of us will look at each other and be like, I really like you. I really, I love you. And then the other one, without fail, we'll go. Yeah. What do you like about me Like, it's such a two thing.

Steph Barron Hall: 14:53

Yes, but I love that.

Tori Dunlap: 14:55

And we, we see it for exactly what it is because, you know, he'll do it and I'll roll my eyes and be like, God, is this what it's like to date me? And then I will, you know, because I know it's important to him. I'll list, you know, three things that I love about him in that moment, right? And like, he'll do the same for me. And it's so funny because yeah, it is like in many ways dating yourself. Um, but like, you know how best I know how best to love him because in many ways it's how I would want to be loved. So in that way it's really, really beautiful.

Steph Barron Hall: 15:24

Yeah. How have you used the Enneagram in those relationships? Whether it's like your personal relationships, like romantic relationships, or even, you know, with your team and your business?

Tori Dunlap: 15:33

Yeah. We, uh, every single person on the team knows each other's enneagrams. And that's actually something like, we don't require it, but it's kind of like the initiation of getting into her first hundred K as a team member is, it's like, if you don't know your Enneagram type, I would love to have you take it. Um, take the test. And it's just very interesting. We have, which makes total sense. We have a lot of one through I, we have a lot of ones and threes, I think I'm the only two on the team. Um, we have a lot of achievers, right? And perfectionists. And then we have a lot of eights, which makes a lot of sense. Um, or at least people with wings. We have one, our marketing, uh, lead is a nine, I think she's a nine wing eight. And so. Yeah, you can definitely, there's, so it, it's been the most helpful like personality test that I've ever encountered, especially in my rela romantic relationships, but also in my friendships as a business, you know, as a team of just navigating, um, and understanding, oh, okay, that's happening because you feel this way, or because your core motivation is this. Um, and especially as a leader, I think it is really helpful to know, oh, this person's coming at again, coming at this issue because this is their motivation. Right? And like one of my first team members who has since moved on and we are so, you know, cheering her on in every aspect of her career, she was classic, classic like achiever, perfectionist combo. I think there were so many times where we could see that she was, uh, you know, pursuing the absolute perfect version of a project when we kind of just needed the project done. and it wasn't a bad thing, right? It was a beautiful trait, which was like, she wants to do it and do it really fucking well. And I think one of the things that I really tried to, to teach her, and I think that she did, was receptive to was, you know, this will never be perfect. We are working on a deadline and we just gotta get to where you know you are, we're feel like it's good enough and then move on. I always say as an entrepreneur, done is better than perfect. Like when you're running a business, you just have to kind of get things. Again, done in a quality way, but get them done rather than make them perfect cuz perfect's not achievable. So, you know, that was just so helpful in navigating that with like her in particular, and then just our entire team and definitely in my, in my relationships personally too.

Steph Barron Hall: 17:56

Absolutely. Yeah. And I, um, I love that you were able to coach your colleague through that because one of the things that I really learned, you know, I experience that a lot too. I am a type three, but perfectionism is like so key in a lot of the things that I do, and it really does slow you down a lot of the time. And I was working with this coach that was like, basically like it's a. So it's a great tool to have in your toolbox, and it's not the right tool for everything. So where are you gonna use it and where are you gonna use? Done is better than perfect.

Tori Dunlap: 18:33

Yeah. Um, Elizabeth Gilbert, who wrote, eat, pray, love, big Magic. She's just like one of my favorite, favorite people on the planet. She has this quote that says, um, perfectionism is fear and stilettos. And I love that quote, which is like, we lauded perfectionism as this, and again, typically with women, we lauded as this like, you know, badge of honor of like, oh, well, I'm a perfectionist. And typically perfectionism is actually manifesting itself. Uh, it, it's fear manifesting itself in, you know, this, this seemingly positive package where, you're, you may be scared that this thing isn't good enough. You may be scared you're not good enough. You may be scared that like, is this all I am is, is this? And it's like at some point, like especially with writing my book, this was, this was something. I had to like repeat like a mantra of like, okay, this is on a deadline. It's never going to be perfect. We're just gonna do the best we can. and that's, that's all we can do is we're gonna do the best we can right now. We're gonna, you know, produce something that hopefully we're really proud of. And I definitely am really proud of this. And yeah, it's not gonna be perfect and there's so much that I can't control about how this book is received or, um, how it ages or, uh, the impact it has. But all I can do is do my best and submit my best. When it's time to submit. And, um, I think that again, as an entrepreneur where you're having to make so many decisions on a daily basis, and plenty of those decisions will not be the quote unquote right decisions, but you just need to make a decision and then figure it out after. And so I think, yeah, the perfection is perfectionism is fear and stilettos thing is, is, um, so enlightening and illuminating, especially. I think a lot of women who are pursuing perfectionism when in fact they're just really afraid. They're afraid of not being good enough.

Steph Barron Hall: 20:30

Yeah, it's such a poignant image. you mentioned earlier that you did gma, you went on your vacation, and then you came back. Three weeks later, you quit your job. How did you know that, you know, quitting your job was gonna be like, how did you know, okay, I can create a business from this? you know, walk me through that.

Tori Dunlap: 20:51

Yeah, so the business had already been around for three and a half years, so, The universe kind of made that decision for me, and I'm gonna, that sounds woowoo, but I'll tell you exactly what I mean. I rebranded to her first hundred K in February of 2019 and everything started taking off from there. Um, I was getting pressed. I was on CNBC and Market Watch, which are, you know, predominantly finance, uh, publications, but then with, you know, good Morning America. I was, uh, starting to make more and more money in the business. I was gaining, you know, social media clout and followers and, um, It was just, yeah, it was gaining a lot of momentum and I was having people pretty much every day ask me like, when are you gonna quit your job? Because that was always the plan is I wanted to be an entrepreneur, but I was 24, turning 25, felt really early and. Uh, I talk about this again in my book, but one of the interesting things about growing up with such a good financial education is that I had parents who always picked the stable choice. And I'm so thankful for that because I, I had a good life. I didn't have to, you know, I wasn't wanting for anything. but they always picked the stable choice. My dad has always wanted to be an entrepreneur and never did because 401k healthcare, stable paycheck, and so, as my business was gaining more and more success, it was so interesting because, um, the leaders at the, at the startup I was working at in my nine to five, my direct boss was always very supportive and he could see that I was, you know, that I add a distinct line that I was, you know, working on this business, but also doing my job and doing it well. The two other founders did not see it that way, and frankly, disappointingly felt threatened by my success and by my business. And it got to the point literally where. You know, I went on Good Morning America and I think what happened is there was a little bit of jealousy, which was so ridiculous cuz they were like, you know, men who had had successful companies before this had like done a bunch of things and they were feeling threatened by this 25 year old marketing manager. Um, but one of them was, uh, basically made up a story about, uh, how he thought that I was using their PR contacts and that I got that opportunity by like basically stealing their. Their contacts and their, the work that they were paying this PR person to do. And that's definitely not what happened at all. But the interesting thing, of course, is that, uh, I didn't hear about this directly. I heard about this from a fellow coworker who had like gotten drunk on a weekend with this, uh, leader at the company and who had basically confided in him and told him, which was also an HR nightmare. So, I went to my boss, and again, I'm like on this high of like, I hit a hundred K at 25, which was like my goal. I was working towards for three, three and a half years. I, uh, you know, was on Good Morning America and had this great press interview, and then of course I, I am just like filled with dread of like, oh my God, am I gonna get fired? I don't think I did this. I know I didn't do this, but this, this, how it looks. I don't know. And I went into my boss and I was. Here's what's going on, and he's like, I had no idea. This was not communicated to me. And we had a really beautifully honest conversation and he was like, entrepreneur to entrepreneur. There's no reason to not go for it. He's like, you have money in the bank, you have momentum. You have a already successful business. Right? It's not just like an idea or like the, the fledglings of an idea Literally my parents though were calling me and telling me You need to do everything you can to keep your job, like you need to do everything you can to keep your job. And, um, I quit the next day. I submitted my notice and, um, my, uh, direct boss did right by me and got me some severance, which was great. But it was definitely just really, really weird because I had given a lot to that company and actually leveraged my own company for them. In most of the press features that I got as her first a hundred k, I was able to work in the place that I worked and get them links and stuff and, but it was never acknowledged. It was always just a threat. And so I was just like, Kept telling myself, I can't quit my job. I can't quit my job. It's not the right time. And so I truly believe that the universe was like, okay, if you're not gonna do it, I'm gonna do it for you. I'm gonna get to a place where like it's, this is no longer the environment that you wanna be a part of. And. Frankly that doesn't wanna work with you anymore, And like it is time. And then, I mean, I joke with my parents all the time, I'll call them and give them shit and be like, Hey, remember when you told me to keep my job and now I make so much more money and I have way more flexibility and also look at all of this. And so that was a long story, but basically, uh, yeah, it wasn't so much a. Decision. I mean, it was a decision most definitely, but it was something that I kept prolonging because quote, it wasn't the right time. And maybe that was my own perfectionism, right? Of just like, it's not the right time, it's never the right time. it's never the right time. But I have everything in place to make this the, the most right time it can be. And even if it didn't work, I could have gone back to corporate, right? Like even if it didn't work out, I was gonna have a cool story to tell. I was gonna make a little bit of money and then go back to, to my nine to five.

Steph Barron Hall: 26:22

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's hilarious that they were like, oh, she must be using our contacts like, but people who are.

Tori Dunlap: 26:30

So insulting

Steph Barron Hall: 26:31

and, and like people who are in this type of industry, it's like, no, you just have something that goes viral. A random person who works on that TV show loves your content and is like, we should have this person on, pitches it to them and then they invite you, like,

Tori Dunlap: 26:46

That's exactly what happened with Good Morning America. They saw me on New York Magazine and New York magazine. I had pitched by just politely hounding the reporter like, which is how I get all of my PR and press now. Right. And it's, yeah. And it was, when I looked back on it, you know, a couple months later after I had had a little space and after frankly like the fight or flight impulse had like died down, I was like, how sad is. That two cisgendered straight white men in their like forties, fifties, uh, felt threatened enough by their 25 year old marketing manager. And what I was building, that they had to make up a story about me that wasn't true, just to make their own egos feel better, that maybe I was getting more pressed than they were

Steph Barron Hall: 27:33

Oh God, yes. Tale as

Tori Dunlap: 27:35

Yeah. Gotta love it.

Steph Barron Hall: 27:37

But I, I also think, you know, when I'm hearing this story too, I'm thinking like, oh my gosh, as a two, I can also hear another layer to that where it's like, you've given so much to them. You know, and, and then to hear that they took what you gifted them and you're like, look, I'm for free just promoting y'all and everything, and then. No rejection.

Tori Dunlap: 27:59

Thank you for saying the Yeah, you're exactly right. Which was like, Hey, I'm doing this thing, and they were like, no acknowledgement. Actually, it's going to count towards why we don't like you being here. like, I'm sorry, I got you this splashy front page feature in C N B C that sent a bunch of website traffic to you. but that was so long ago. Now when I think about it, like that was three years ago, which doesn't feel like a long time, but like with pandemic time, that feels like forever. And um, I'm, in many ways very, very thankful. I'm thankful that my B Direct boss was such an advocate and is still such an advocate for me. Um, and honestly, again, it's just. It just reconfirms. I'm just like, the male ego is just so fragile. It is so fragile. It'll break

Steph Barron Hall: 28:44

Why do we like them? Like, I,

Tori Dunlap: 28:46

I, dunno. That's how, you know, that's how, that's literally, that's how you know that, um, yeah. Uh, that being gay is not a choice because I would choose a different option.

Steph Barron Hall: 29:01

yes. Uh, I love it. Um, so I think like another thing that we've kind of touched on as well is this, The story about, you know, putting more money in the hands of women and, and really promoting this idea where so much about, you know, whether it's in like Good Housekeeping or, or these other, you know, historically significant, you know, the last, you know, 20, 30 years. Um, Female led magazines where it's like they're marketing toward women and everything. So much of it has been about how do you save more, not how do you make more, but how do you save more? But you have really prioritized this concept of playing big. You know, I, I don't know if you've read the book Playing Big by Tar Mar. It's like one of my favorites. But um, I'm just curious if you can expand on how. You know, being a woman and an entrepreneur, how those two things really play together for you and how you use your platform to offer more for other women as well.

Tori Dunlap: 30:04

It's funny I haven't read that book, but if you read mine, I mean, you can take a shot every time. I either say like playing small as like a thing that society has conditioned us to do or you know, the me talking about the need to play big and you will be drunk by the end of the book Um, So that's my entire thesis really, is that, like I was saying before, when you have money, you have options and society, the patriarchy, whatever you wanna call it, has conditioned women to play small because it makes us controllable, right? And we have been conditioned to, um, reject the pursuit of wealth. We are very comfortable as a society with men pursuing wealth. We are not comfortable with women pursuing wealth. We are have been conditioned by society. Like you said, literally, it's almost like you've read my book already to um, literally like if you google how to, how to, you know, earn money or how to build wealth, the advice for men is real estate and investing and negotiating salaries and making more money. And the advice to. Stop spending unquote frivolous things. And of course they are saying frivolous things are manicures and lattes, but not NFL seasons and tickets. No, no, no. It is the things we're deeming as feminine and typically the very things that we need to do in order to, um, perform femininity correctly to society. And I put correctly in quotes there, but the very things that they're shaming us for are the things that they demand of us. If we don't, we look tired at work or we're unprofessional. Um, society has conditioned us to play small by when we do advocate for ourselves, telling us we're ungrateful, right, and that we should just be grateful for the things we do have or that we're, you know, a bitch if we have the audacity to call somebody out on their shit. Um, So really the thesis of financial feminism is this idea that when we put our own oxygen masks on first, when we learn how to pay off debt, when we learn how to save money, when we learn that the pursuit of wealth is not inherently a bad thing, especially if it means we're pursuing options and choices and the best life. That is available to us, then we can start helping others put on their oxygen masks and in addition, start building a society where everyone gets an oxygen mask. Because when it comes to personal finance, the equation is about 20% personal choices, 20%, how to create a budget, learning how to navigate student loans, learning what a Roth IRA is, and the other 80% is circumstances and systemic oppression. Right. Unfortunately, this is a novel concept in the personal finance community to acknowledge that systemic oppression is a, a part of the equation, but b, such a big part and the dominant part. So this mission of getting money into more women's hands means the entire world starts to change because in a society that wants you to play small, having money is an act of protest. Having money, having a financial education, having enough money that you can make choices for yourself. We're not talking Jeff Bezos money, right? We're just talking like enough money to have choices, makes you, requires you to play big in a society, in a system that constantly tries and demands you play.

Steph Barron Hall: 33:22

Yeah, absolutely. And I love. Mindset too. Because even when I think about about other books that I've loved in the past few years, like We Should All Be Millionaires by Rachel Rogers, for example. I have talked with people about that and I'm like, oh my, or you know, you are a badass asset making money like a few years ago by Jensen Tero. Like people are like, they listen to that title and they're like, Ooh, you know, because we have such, and, and I, you know, I think a lot of us are raised with that, and I definitely. That's definitely something that I've, I'm continually dismantling and it can be painful at times, and I'm sure you've experienced this as well. When, you know, I talk with somebody who wants to bring me on for my services and I tell them, you know, pricing, they're like, uh, no. Like, how dare you ask for that amount? And I'm

Tori Dunlap: 34:11

Or how dare you charge at all, right? Like, if you, if you just loved this, you would do this for free. The amount of comments I still get, especially they, they don't realize the irony of commenting that on like a financial educator negotiation, coach's TikTok, but like the amount of men who are like, and women too. That's the, again, the, the, the, the one that I'm like, oh gosh, you just. you have been conditioned to play small, and so you're trying to condition other women to play small, and that's not your fault, but telling me, well, financial education like should be for everybody, which yes, agreed. Um, and like your services, you should just do it for free if you really loved it. And I'm like, do you know the amount of free content that I produce on a daily basis that my team that I pay to produce, like I a hundred percent believe in being as accessible as possible? There's also certain ways we have to make. And typically we're making money by going to brands or companies that have money, and then it's like, why are you taking sponsored posts? I'm like, pick one. Pick one. You. are mad at me for for not doing this for free, or I do it for free and get money from somewhere else and then you're mad at me for that. So I mean, really women can't win and that's one of the other conclusions is it's like you just have to live whatever life you wanna live because somebody's gonna be mad about it. Because anytime we see a woman standing in her power and playing big, we have been conditioned, even women, right? The internalized misogyny. We have been conditioned to tear women down. And white women, we are so guilty of this with women of color, right? Of.

Steph Barron Hall: 35:43

Yep.

Tori Dunlap: 35:44

It is so easy for us to default to that. Um, and this is why I spend the entire first chapter of my book, financial Feminists, talking about the emotions of money and the financial trauma and the narratives you're believing about money. Like talking about money is taboo or impolite, or the pursuit of wealth is wrong, or, um, if I just work hard, I will make. These are all myths, right? These are all narratives that are perpetuated to keep you underpaid and overworked and frankly, gaslit. So you can't learn how to get a budget together, how to spend mindfully, how to grow your money in the stock market until you start to understand that all of this is emotional, all of this is psychological, and all of this is systemic. And just like systemic racism. our views around money and wealth and the misogyny that's tied up in it are ingrained in us, and unless you actively work to dismantle that, you will be defaulting to that for the rest of your life.

Steph Barron Hall: 36:43

Yeah, absolutely. I, I was just literally thinking about this this morning in, in preparation for chatting with you. I was like, there's so much reparenting I think that needs to happen around this topic. And that's why I love, you know, books. I'm so excited to read yours because it's like thinking about how dysregulated my nervous system. would get when, you know, my husband and I first got married and we started talking about money, and I was like, what? You know, like just because I was so used to not having enough that I was like, if I just spend whatever I do have, then I don't have to worry about it, you

Tori Dunlap: 37:19

Can I, can I do an exercise with you? Can I like commandeer over the podcast for a second? So one of the things I do in the first chapter is I have people, um, consider and journal what their first money memory is. What is the first time they remember thinking about money and. we can typically apply that to how you might view money now, or at least create a conclusion from it. So I'll give you mine. Um, first time I remember thinking about money again. I was a theater major. I was a theater kid. I wanted to go see Annie the musical. And my mom told me, if you want a ticket to Annie, if you want something, you have to save money for it. So I had an alt altos tin and I put, oh, you know, the pennies I would find on the street. My lemonade stand money. Again, tickets were like$25. I was five years old. I had no income source, right? So it was like my parents were gonna pay for it regardless. But it was this, it was this idea of if you want something, you need to save money for it. So, of course, learned it, then learned it as I progressed through life. Okay, if I want something, I need to save money for it. And that was a pretty positive money memory, right? If you would be open and willing to share yours, and then I can, I can be a little ther. I can have a therapist moment and relate it back to maybe,

Steph Barron Hall: 38:28

Yeah, for sure. Um, the first one that comes to mind, and I've, I've shared this one with my parents as well, but, um, well, I just always remember being stressed about money even before, before kindergarten, right? Um, and this was probably kindergarten or first grade. I remember this happening more than once. But, um, getting to the end of the lunch line after I, you know, picked out all my lunch and like, you know, got spaghetti. Hamburger, whatever it was, getting to the end and not having any lunch money. Right. Whether that's because I didn't tell my parents I was out, or my parents could have given me$10 or whatever, you know, to put in my account. But I, because I had, as a kid, you don't know, right? So I had all these stories about like, I'm not gonna ask for any money. So I didn't, and, um, getting to the end of the lunch line and they would take my lunch away, right? And then they would give me the free lunch off offering, which was, um, a slice of American cheese between two slices of white bread and, you know, I to this day, will not eat American cheese. Like not, not a

Tori Dunlap: 39:39

don't blame you,

Steph Barron Hall: 39:40

Um, but also then going back to the table and being so mortified like, oh my God. Like, everyone can see that I,

Tori Dunlap: 39:47

gonna judge me. Yeah. Well, and thank you for sharing first of all. Second of all, like what a difficult thing. even if like your parents did have money. what a interesting and, and frankly, traumatizing thing to feel when you're five or six immediately, like it's scarcity, right? Like to have basically scarce, scarcity, ingrained in your bones when you're five years old. And we actually know that the vast majority of our financial habits, or the way we view money are cemented by age. So by second grade, third grade, you are already, I think it's first grade, doesn't matter. Second grade, you are already fully like, unless again, you work to change it. You have already had your assumptions about money set and so of course you, you might feel like money is scarce or terrifying or a source of, of. Right. And I think that you are not alone in that. My money memory I know is unique. I have, uh, I've worked with clients one-on-one. I did that for many, many years. And you know, I could probably count on one hand the amount of quote unquote positive money memories. It was typically, I realized we didn't have enough. I saw my parents argue over money, you know, my parents would tell me, don't overspend on credit cards, and then I would watch them. Max out their cards or you know, the person would say, oh, the card's been declined right at the grocery store. And so of course we view money as, as evil or scarce or, uh, something, uh, to be ashamed of. Like of course we do. Um, and unless we actively work to change that, that's how we're gonna feel for the rest of our.

Steph Barron Hall: 41:33

Yeah. Yeah. And I think too, you know, internalizing a lot of these beliefs that were taught as women, like you're not good at good with money.

Tori Dunlap: 41:42

Right. If you're not good at math, which is a whole other thing. We did an episode on my podcast Financial Feminist about how that is another belief that is ingrained with girls, uh, growing up of like, you are bad at math. You are basically predestined to be bad at math. That's not a thing. Not a thing at all. But yeah, I mean, I'm a theater major guys, and I'm a financial expert, like You don't have to be good with math. And frankly, it's, it's not even about math. It's about how do we live a life we love and we need money to do that? We, how do we use money as a tool to build a life that we love? That's the question we need to ask, not can I balance a formula in an Excel spreadsheet like that, isn't it? It's like, how do we use money as a tool to travel once a year? How do I use money as a tool to have a child? How do I use money as a tool to start my own business or retire earlier? To donate every month to a cause? I believe in, like that's the question I want us to start asking. And then when we're taken care of, okay, how do I use money as a source of change in my. How do I use my, my voting power, right? And when you're buying anything, you are voting with your dollars, right? When you are purchasing anything, that is an opportunity for you to make the kind of world you want to see. So when you have that money, how do you better your own life with it? And then how do you better other people's lives with it?

Steph Barron Hall: 43:11

Yeah, and And that's something that you prioritize a lot, right? You say?

Tori Dunlap: 43:14

Right?

Steph Barron Hall: 43:15

Privilege comes responsibility. I mean, I think that we can also hear that in Spider-Man, right? but um,

Tori Dunlap: 43:21

With great power comes great responsibility. Yes. I mean, yeah, cuz I had parents who were educating me financially and that came from their lack of education like that came from my parents not having a lot growing up, especially my dad. And then both realizing like, okay, we want better for our kid and we want to teach her the things that we didn't know and. Yeah. Didn't realize that was a privilege until I was having conversations with other people where I was like, oh, you didn't learn this. This isn't like normal. And then with that privilege comes responsibility, right? And I'm a cisgendered straight white woman. Like lot of privilege there. I had a stable upbringing. And so for me it's like how do I, yeah. What's the responsibility that comes with that privilege?

Steph Barron Hall: 44:05

Yeah. Um, so then what do you think is the first step? Like when do we start, what do we do? What's our first kind of foray into getting better with money?

Tori Dunlap: 44:19

Yeah. So first thing, again, we talk about in the book, like you have to understand your financial trauma. You have to understand the narratives you're believing about money. You can't go to how to create a budget until you understand what sort of narratives or hangups do you have. So that's the first step, really, and that's like the messiest step, but very, very necessary. The second thing is you have to figure out where your money's. in chapter two of the book, we talk all about like spending and understanding that you don't have to stop spending money, you just need to stop spending money on shit you don't care about. Like, the answer is not deprivation. Plenty of finance experts teach deprivation that doesn't work, not because of willpower, but because of literal psychology. Um, and also because that's not fun. Like I don't wanna not spend money. That's, that's not a thing. Um, so in instead spending according to your values. So figuring out, okay, where is the majority of my money? when I swipe that credit card, like what is happening and how do I feel about those purchases? Are they aligned with the things that I truly value? And, um, uh, fellow finance expert, Paula Pant, who's also, we interview her in the book, she says, you can afford almost anything. You just can't afford everything, right? And so it's this idea of I would really rather take this money that I'm spending on this thing that I don't really like or that I feel lukewarm about and spend it over. For me, it's like, okay, I'm okay getting like less coffee if it means I get to travel more. It's not a deprivation, it's rather how do I use my hard-earned money to bring me the most joy? So that's the second thing. And then the third thing is you need to start with an emergency fund. This is another common myth I see is people. I've been listening to Dave Ramsey for too long and Dave Ramsey has shamed them and told them that debt is terrible and bad and needs to be eliminated at all costs. And I do teach you how to pay off debt, but we need an emergency fund first for two reasons. One, it's going to prevent you from going into more debt later, right? It's going to prevent you from. Going into debt or going into more debt trying to pay for that emergency cuz one will happen. And two, we really prioritize mental health for first center K. And it's like, it's just so nice knowing you have something in the bank when your head hits the pillow at night of just like, okay, I have something, should I lose my job? Or should a family member get sick or I get a flat tire or something happens. Right? So you need that emergency fund first of about three months of living expenses in a high yield savings account. And we teach you how to. And start contributing to the account, um, without feeling like, again, I'm depriving myself. And it all hinges on automation. So if you can set up an automatic transfer, even if it's just$20 from your checking account to your savings account, you can start building that savings again without it feeling like complete scarcity and also without feeling the guilt of you get to the end of the month and you have nothing saved, you have nothing to show for it. So first thing is, yeah, working through. what sort of narratives, beliefs are there that you're believing about money. The second is to understand where your money's going and is it reflective of your values and then starting to save, even if it's just a small amount of money and doing it on autopilot, so you don't even have to think about it.

Steph Barron Hall: 47:26

when you work with people one-on-one, what is a common thing that people are like, oh, I'm spending a lot. and I really don't care about it.

Tori Dunlap: 47:33

Yeah, I don't do one-on-one coaching anymore, um, but back when I did, I mean, there's no, like one thing, coffee's the stereotype, right? It's always, it's, but I think it's like anything of like default convenience and again, sometimes this is just necessary of like, I didn't have enough time, but this is like the convenience purchases show me not just like, again, where the money's going, but what the priorities are. I think that some of us are just so tired because maybe we can't or aren't taking care of ourselves and I'm thi I'm feeling this right now, trying to, you know, promote a book after just writing it of just like I am door dashing a lot more than normal because I get to the end of my day because I haven't scheduled time and to take care of myself. And I'm like, I don't have the energy to cook. I'm just gonna DoorDash so. And again, DoorDash is not inherently wrong. Like if you, DoorDash great like, but it is, I think when it becomes a habit or when it showcases that you are not taking care of yourself in another aspect of your life. I see this a lot too with like, I get massages pretty regularly because I have chronic pain and I have to get them more regularly when I am not stretching right? Or like when I am not drinking enough water or getting enough sleep. Making sure again, that I've scheduled time for myself. So I think that in my own life, even I'm like revealing, understanding in this moment something that I haven't processed yet. Like like I have spent a lot of money, especially in the last six months, kind of like banding problems because I've just spent like so focused on my business. the nice thing for me is that I have built a kind of business that I can afford these. However, are they the smartest financial choices? Probably not. And again, it does not mean like I will continue to get a massage. I will continue to DoorDash, but if I am doing it more frequently because I'm trying to bandaid an issue that I didn't take care of, that I know I should have taken care of, that's an issue.

Steph Barron Hall: 49:33

Yeah, absolutely. I, I mean I, that reminds me of, um, prior to nine types, I had a different business where I was in a wedding florist and while I was making extra money, cuz I had a full-time job, right. Um, at, at a startup and I, I was making extra money, but I was so stressed and busy that I was spending all the extra money I was making on like, going out to eat or

Tori Dunlap: 49:56

right?

Steph Barron Hall: 49:57

Additional alcohol, you know, or whatever it was at the time where it was like, that wasn't helpful. That wasn't, yeah. so I love that you're like highlighting that too because it's, it's good to identify those areas of, especially self-care. I think, again, I think sometimes self-care is a privilege. Like a lot of the time people don't have the bandwidth cuz they have to work three jobs or whatever. But one of my big priorities too is making it more accessible. So like, can I take. Literally a minute to breathe or literally a minute to stretch or, or whatever. But, um, we just are so often on autopilot, you know, that's, I think where our work kind of can combine because the n agram is about getting off of autopilot. Yeah. And it sounds like that's a big part of what you do as well.

Tori Dunlap: 50:44

I, yeah. And even, yeah, me talking to you, I'm like, oh, yep, I'm doing a lot more of that. and I think it's just because this season of my life is really busy. Now if this continues right, if like my work slows down, yet my habits have have cemented and continue, then, then we'll do something about it. But in the meantime I'm like, I am sprinting to the finish line and anything I need to do in order to make that sprint slightly easier, I'm okay. Spending money on right now

Steph Barron Hall: 51:10

Well, yeah. And also like writing a book while running a, a full-time

Tori Dunlap: 51:14

would not recommend it. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 51:15

I'm doing it right now. And let me tell you, it's like,

Tori Dunlap: 51:19

I mean, I would honest you, you didn't ask for my advice. I would stop and like stop one. Truly, like, I will not do that again. Could not do it again, won't do it again. I, I kept the business running while also writing a book, which plenty of people do as their full-time job, which is a full-time job. Yeah, I would not recommend. So sending you good vibes,

Steph Barron Hall: 51:39

Thanks. Yeah. Figuring it out. But yeah. Um okay, so we know that you have your book coming out, financial Feminist. It's out. Now, I, I need to know the date, um, at the moment when this podcast releases. Um, but

Tori Dunlap: 51:53

least available for pre-order wherever you get your books, so,

Steph Barron Hall: 51:57

Yeah, and I actually in, in preparation, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna go read it before. And then I was like, oh, wait, dang it, it's

Tori Dunlap: 52:03

I have like the only copy and it's right here. It, it literally got sent to me a couple days ago, although I just got tagged. So we're recording this like mid-December. Um, I just got tagged in a couple people Barnes and Noble at, so, um, some cities is releasing it early and we we literally were messaging like my publisher today being like, how did this happen? Like, some places just, I don't know, they're just like, I, we have the books. Great. We'll release'em early

Steph Barron Hall: 52:28

Oh my gosh.

Tori Dunlap: 52:29

which is, so if you're in like Bozeman, Montana, apparently you can get a copy at your Par Noble, which is so funny to me. Anyway, you're gonna ask a question,

Steph Barron Hall: 52:37

No. Yeah, I just would love to hear, you know, where can we buy it? Where can we check it out? What is it only for women?

Tori Dunlap: 52:45

No, no. Um, you can buy it literally wherever you get your books. Um, I would prefer, and I think the community would prefer a local independent bookstore, but Amazon's got it. Barnes and Noble Books A Million, literally anywhere you get your Target, Walmart, audible. Yep. We do a, we're doing a ebook, uh, a hard cover and then an audiobook read by me. So. Yep. It's available wherever you get your books. The title is called Financial Feminist for a Reason. Um, a feminist can be anybody regardless of gender identity, who believes in the equality of all genders. So we have plenty of people who are straight white boys who are reading this book. We have theys and gays and we, we, we joke it's Girls Gays and theys, predominantly but literally anybody is, is welcome and encouraged to read this book. And I really do hope a lot of people get exposed. A lot of men get exposed to my work through their women partners and. a really cool thing happens. I, I just hope men read this book regardless. But if you get introduced to this book through a friend or through your, your woman partner, um, this is such a, a great opportunity for you to, one, learn more about money because you will, regardless of gender identity, you will learn about money through this. But you will also start to understand and unpack the ways that patriarchy and masculinity hurt you as. And the ways that, again, we condition women to play small, and that if you are not actively working to dismantle the system that exists, it will not only hurt the women that you love, but also hurt you. And so, um, this, yeah, this book is for anybody and everybody who is committed to the equality of all genders and who is also just trying to get their financial shit together.

Steph Barron Hall: 54:23

Yeah. Uh, I mean, aim into that. I mean, we just need more of that you know, in, in the world. I think. And also like something I love about your, you know, your, your work is that your specific point of view comes through so clearly. So I'm really excited to read, um, these concepts from you and I think that'll be really impactful. Before we jump into my very last questions, tell us where people can find you online, connect with you. Follow you buy all of your courses and resumes and everyth.

Tori Dunlap: 54:53

I'm at her first hundred K and all the socials, H E R F I R S T 1 0 0 K, and her first hundred k.com. And then the book and the podcast are called Financial Feminist.

Steph Barron Hall: 55:02

Love it. We'll link all of that in the show notes. Um, now tell me about a book that has helped you refreshed you or shaped you in the last year.

Tori Dunlap: 55:12

Oh, in the last year, um, It's a couple different books. I've had this weird recurring theme that it wasn't even intentional of, um, like different, uh, timelines or different paths of like, if you chose just to do this one thing differently, how would your life be different? So I read the Midnight Library and that was like one that was just so clearly tied into that. uh, my favorite book of this year has been Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow. It's fiction, it's, oh gosh, like wrecked me, made me cry three different times. Just a beautiful like, just a beautiful book about humanity and friendships and love and just absolutely great. Um. Yeah, I think that probably those are the big two that stick out to me. I read Untamed a couple years ago and I untamed as probably my favorite non-fiction work by Glenn and Doyle and like, very much changed the course of my life. Um, but I think specifically in the last year, my favorite book, yeah, it was tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow. And then, um, just, yeah, recurring themes of like if you, you've done one thing differently, how would your life be different? And it's just really interesting to think about.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:20

Yeah, I loved that about Midnight Library as well. And I have not read tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow, so I'm gonna put that

Tori Dunlap: 56:25

really, really like it. It's really good. I haven't stopped talking about it with people who are like, what books you read this year? And I'm like, you have to read this book. Yeah, it's

Steph Barron Hall: 56:33

Yes. Yes. Um, becoming an evangelist for different authors. Yes. I love it. okay, final question. What is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Tori Dunlap: 56:43

I think from the business side, like done is better than perfect, like we were talking about before. Um, oh man. Lots of things. Oh, probably my favorite. And the one I have to remind myself of all the time, my mentor and like my second mom told me probably three years ago, that I am a human being, not a human doing. And I'm, I'm sure somebody said it before she did, but needed to hear it from her. At that moment. Human being, not a human doing it is okay and like completely the right thing to just exist.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:16

Yeah.

Tori Dunlap: 57:16

and you are not the output. You are not your output. You are not your accomplishments. You are not your productivity. You get to, to be the best person that you can be, and that's enough. That's enough.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:29

You don't have to earn your right to exist on this planet.

Tori Dunlap: 57:31

Yeah. Which is something I have to remind myself of all the time. So human being, not a human doing.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:37

yeah. And I, I think that, I also see that with a lot of twos who are entrepreneurs because, um, what can end up happening is, One, there's scope creep all over the place. So you say, I'll do this for you, and you end up doing so much more. And two, having a really hard time letting other people come in and help because you're like, no, I got this. I got this.

Tori Dunlap: 58:00

Yep. And also understanding that. The only way you can propel a business forward is by trusting people. And sometimes you will get burned, like sometimes you're gonna get burned most of the time. I think as long as you like have good hiring processes and all these things like you actually, you, you, yeah. That is like, that's my other, like, again, very practical. If you can hire somebody in your business, you need to hire somebody. Like the moment you can, you need to hire somebody. Um, because it's gonna utterly transform the, the future of your.

Steph Barron Hall: 58:33

Yeah. Absolutely. Totally agree. well thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. This has been delightful. To just chat with you and hear more about your book and your perspective. So thrilled for it to be out later this month and yeah, I'm just excited for everyone to read it.

Tori Dunlap: 58:51

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

58:54

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify