Enneagram in Real Life

The Traveling Enneagram with Nikki Meyers

December 06, 2022 Stephanie Hall Season 2 Episode 21
Enneagram in Real Life
The Traveling Enneagram with Nikki Meyers
Show Notes Transcript

HOLIDAY GIFT GUIDES ARE HERE! https://ninetypes.co/giftguides

On this week’s episode of Enneagram IRL, we are sharing a fun conversation I had with Nikki Meyers as I joined her Live Talk Radio Show, The Traveling Enneagram. Nikki Meyers is a certified Enneagram Practitioner with a serious passion for helping people be the very best version of themselves each and every day by cultivating self-awareness and a space for growth. She works one-on-one with individuals, with couples, and professionally with teams and leaders. She's spent almost 20 years working in leadership development, incorporating the teachings of the Enneagram and Emotional Intelligence to create high-performing teams and leaders. Nikki owns her own practice, Pura Vida Coaching & Development, with the name coming from the Costa Rican term meaning "pure life," a saying she deeply believes in and lives by. 


We discuss what the Enneagram is, what it is not, and some of the best ways to use this system. We also answer a few questions from listeners, as this show was recorded live! 


Click here to listen to this show and more of The Traveling Enneagram. You can find Nikki’s Talk Radio Show on any podcast app!


Follow Nikki on Instagram: @nikkipuravidacd

Or connect with her online: ​​https://www.puravidacd.com/


Here are the key takeaways:

  • A breakdown of the Enneagram System — and what it’s not
  • How does the Enneagram differ from other systems?
  • Using the Enneagram as a tool for curiosity
  • Steph and Nikki discuss personal “Aha” moments as a Type 3 and Type 7.
  • Different approaches to the Enneagram: Levels of Health
  • The importance of subtypes
  • How to narrow down on your Enneagram type
  • Advice for a type Six jumping into a new professional role


Want to keep the conversation going? Join me on Instagram @ninetypesco to keep learning and chatting about how our types show up in REAL LIFE! Connect with me here: https://www.instagram.com/ninetypesco/?hl=en

Learn more about subtypes! Download my free subtypes guide here.

Want to stay up to date with all things Nine Types Co? Join my email-list and receive Enneagram reflections, thoughts about growth and personal development. Plus, you’ll get priority access to new offers and courses! Sign up here.

Not sure about your type? Get my free self-typing guide and a series of six emails to walk you through the whole process. Sign up here: https://ninetypes.co/selftyping-guide




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Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in real life. A podcast that will help you go beyond any grand theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Baron hall, creator of nine types co on Instagram, author of the Enneagram in love, accredited Enneagram, professional, and ennea curious human, just like you be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram and your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now onto the show. Welcome back to Enneagram IRL, and I'm so excited to share today's episode with you. But before we get to that, I wanted to share a couple of other little pieces of news about what's happening in my world. Um, and in the world of nine type SCO. So, um, this week we have our gift guides back. This is our. Fourth or fifth year, I've kind of lost track of putting these guides together. So I really hope you love them. I hope you find them. Really interesting and exciting. And so you can find those over at my website, nine types.co, and you can click in the gift guides link in the menu, or you'll find the direct link in the show notes. So that's the first thing. The second thing is that you may have already seen this on Instagram. But really exciting news for me. I am writing another book. So I am working hard on this book. I've been writing it already for a couple of months, have a few more months ago before I turn in this manuscript. And I don't have really states or working titles or anything like that just yet. But this is what I can tell you without a doubt. I am very passionate about this book. I love writing about applying to any gram in our lives. The theory of the Enneagram is important, but learning without application kind of misses the entire point. As I'm sure you can glean from this podcast. And, um, the other things that I do in the world, the Enneagram world that I just love talking about. Okay. So what, what do we actually do with it? Like what are we going to do with this information? So over the years, I've actually found that some aspects of using the Instagram come naturally for a lot of us, but in other areas, we need a little bit more help. So this book will act as a guide on your inner work journey, helping you see parts of yourself. You've ignored, illuminating the strategies you've needed to make it through life. And finding new ways forward with. Awareness and self-compassion. So I always aim to make my writing really clear and conversational, and the same will be true with this project. So I'm really honored to share that I have signed with Harper one publishing, um, for this book. And I'm so excited to join their list of really amazing authors that you probably heard of like Helen Palmer and David Daniels and Ian Morgan Cron and all of these other amazing Enneagram authors who have. Published with Harper one over the years. So I'm thrilled to be able to share that with you. And with that said, I will be taking a bit of a break from the podcast. Because I'm so intent on writing a good book and I don't want to have any sort of, you know, other things competing for my time and energy. Um, So I'll take a bit of a break, but we'll be back soon with some more interviews. And in other episodes, And if you have any episode requests, any interview requests you'd love or, or you just wanna, you know, share what type of episodes you've, you've loved the most, feel free to shoot me a DM on Instagram at nine types co and I would love, love, love to hear from you. Um, so thank you so much for your time and attention. I'm really honored that you choose to spend time with me each week. And I want to share with you a little bit more about today's episode. So today's episode is actually a recording from a live interview. I did about six months ago. With another Enneagram practitioner named Nikki Myers. So you'll hear a few different things. Um, she'll mention, you know, our callers or these other things. So just FYI. That I'm sharing, um, something that was live. It's not live as I'm obviously sharing it now. Um, but Nikki Myers is a certified integrant practitioner with a serious passion for helping people be the very best version of themselves each and every day by cultivating self-awareness and a space for growth. She works one-on-one with individuals, with couples and professionally with teams and leaders. She spent almost 20 years working in leadership development, incorporating the teachings of the Instagram and emotional intelligence to create high-performing teams and leaders. Nikki is also in any grand prison project guide and works with inmates across the U S to understand themselves. She focuses her work with others on what is right about us and not just highlighting our blind spots. Nikki owns her own practice, pure Avita coaching and development. What the name coming from the Costa Rican term, meaning pure life, uh, saying she deeply believes in and lives by, and she isn't Enneagram seven. On this episode, we're just kind of doing a deep dive on what the Enneagram is. We don't go too deeply into any of the types, but talk about it more conceptually, it was just a really great conversation. And so I'm really excited to share it with you. And this is actually coming from Nikki's live radio show, Which is called the traveling Enneagram because as we discussed in today's episode, Nicki is. Living that nomadic life. She lives in an RV where sometimes people call it a camper. Um, and she travels around with her husband and they just live their lives out of this RV. And it's, it's pretty awesome. So. I will link to the rest of her episodes in the show notes. This specific episode I'm airing today was called any of what your road trip to self-discovery compassion and growth. And it aired on Thursday, April 21st, 2022. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode and hear from Nikki. It's not really so much an interview as it is a conversation, but it's all about the Instagram growth, how we're applying these things in our lives. And. I really hope you love this episode. Steph and I are gonna just have, um, like I said, a really high level dialogue. Around the Enneagram and, and, and sort of again, that really high level view. So, um, I guess the, the first and probably most important question to ask, so Steph, let's pretend you are in an elevator and you are getting ready to go up to. We'll say hundredth floor and somebody asks you when you get in, so what's the engram anyway? Mm-hmm. What would be that elevator speech? What would you tell all the, another, um, newfangled term, all the nubes out there. The engram. Well, Like I said, I did one time have to do this live, and I had 60 seconds to explain each of the nine engram types. So 60 seconds total for all nine types. Don't know how I did it, but I do remember rehearsing that multiple times. But generally, I say the engram is a personality framework. I don't love to use the, the word personality with it because I think it's so much more than that, but that's the way that we think about it, right? So it's a personality framework oriented around nine core types, and each of the types, um, is really about a core motivation. Um, and, and so it has sort of the structure around it. Um, and it's meant to be used to really uncover blind spots and grow and self-awareness, grow in empathy, and to have more of that spiritual development side and personal connection with ourselves and with others around us. Uh, you made it to the hundredth floor. Nice job, That was great. And I couldn't agree with you more, I think, and we'll, we'll kind of cover off on what, it's not in a second here, but, um, but I like that a lot, that it really, it looks at the motivation for your behavior and how to exactly what you said, see your behavior in action. And, and, and I think have the opportunity to dive into that a little bit deeper and start questioning like, where does that come from? You know, for example, if I'm feeling angry or sad, where, where is that? And, and is it really directed in the way that I am letting it come out? And from that point, we can have amazing growth points. Mm-hmm. Um, so then I think the next question becomes then what do you think is a, a misconception about what the engram is? Yeah. I, I mean, to me, There are a couple different things. So one, I think people sometimes think of it like, um, almost like an aura type of thing. Mm-hmm. where, you know, you'll meet somebody, say it's that same person in the elevator and they'll say, so what's my type? And I'm like, it always makes me laugh just because I have this background of the complexity of it. But I think there's this assumption that somebody like me or like you who has studied this like in depth and in hours and hours and hours and hours and worked with so many people, could just like divine somebody's type. Um, so I think that's a big misconception and it's like, well actually it's not that that simple. And, and for me, I really always want my clients to go back to themselves, you know, to truly find their type. And so I, I really wanna empower them to see what their type is beneath the surface. And also, I will say another big misconception, um, Is just that it's like kind of fluffy that you can just kind of use it, you know, to order a latte or um, you know, any of these other, like to decorate your home like any of these other silly ways. In short, those things are fun sometimes, but that's not what I'm interested in, you know, when it comes to personal development or, or that sort of thing. Yeah, and, and, uh, I think I just. Like a, a, a paint company came out with the colors for the different Enneagram types. Mm-hmm. And it's, you know, like you said, it's cute, but I think we kind of live in this, in this society now where people take like buzzfeed quizzes to find out what kind of coffee they are, um, or what kind of Disney villain or what Disney villain I am. Like, I feel like we, we get so trapped in by, um, this like identification with something. Right. And I think one of the, and you probably have felt the same way, one of the most profound lessons that I have learned and that we certainly both teach is that your type is the box that you're in. Right? That you get the opportunity by learning all of the stuff about yourself and other people, but learning how you can integrate into the other eight types. You get to be this whole full human being. Like you aren't just a type whatever you are, you are, you, you are a human. Um, and by the way, um, my Disney villain, who I would love to be is, uh, Ursula and not I somehow New York. I say that is it? It's my eye makeup, isn't it? It is. It must be. And then that's exactly why I don't wanna take anybody's voice away like she does with Ariel. I just, I really like her eye makeup. Her hair is great. Her outfits are phenomenal. And so, um, that's, I, I actually took the test repeatedly until I got Ursula because then I felt like I could identify with her and that would be the end of that. But, um, but I think the other thing. Um, is that, you know, the word engram, it's not a, it, it has a rich history and meaning and it combines philosophy and, and math and psychology and all this stuff, but at the end of the day, engram means nine point at diagram. Like it's not this like crazy word. You can associate spirituality with it. You can associate, um, uh, leadership principles and how to learn yourself in that way to be a leader, you can associate it with clearing your chakras. There's so many things you can do with it, but that's all auxiliary to what it is at its core, and that's you. Right, right. Yeah. And I think the thing that I love to focus on, Looking at it in terms of the essence of the types and, and really thinking, and I'm sure that, you know, you'll dive into this in, in later episodes, but when we think about what is the virtue of each type and returning to the essence is often like really living out that virtue. Um, and so it's really not so much about figuring out, you know, how to somehow morph your personality to fit. It's, it's really about like understanding how your personality structure that has kept you safe all these years is actually now keeping you stuck. And we need to kind of painfully and but, and slowly develop and chip away at that so that that essence, that soft center of who you truly are can be released and. When we put it that way, I think sometimes that scares people off. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because it is very, like, it sounds very ethereal, almost like woo woo. Mm-hmm. Um, but it is like you're saying that that blend of, um, psychological development and spiritual development and, and all these different things in, in terms of inner work and when we just throw it around or make it a party trick, I think we miss that. And that's the entire like transformative power of this tool. And I think the reason that people, you know, so many people like us, I'm sure the people listening to are so fascinated by it because there's so much more beneath the surface, beyond the descriptors. Yeah. And I, I think you may have seen what I was going to be talking about prior to this wink, wink, but that leads me into the next point then. How do you feel, um, the Enneagram is different than all of these other, uh, quote personality assessments that are available? Mm-hmm. what do you think? I think that the biggest difference is that so many of the other assessments describe us mm-hmm. and they can be used really effectively in the workplace, especially, you know, um, things that are more behavioral, like even like disc for example, um, in the workplace can be really helpful because, you know, you don't have to go that deep in order to get some results from that. Um, but when we're looking at the Enneagram, it's really about the personal transformation and getting beneath the surface. Um, I think it's easy for me to want to look at how I'm not quite there yet, how I'm not quite measuring up yet. And so I think that's what attracted me to the Enneagram because I was pretty quickly able to see like the blind spots. Um, and it was painful for sure, like I definitely felt very exposed, but it also kind of gives you that path to growth, right? It just inherently within the SY system and within the symbol, it has, you know, that growth path laid out for you. So I think that's one of the biggest differences. I I haven't really come across many tools that are as growth oriented as the agram is. Of course, I'm sure you've seen this, we can get really into just using it to describe ourselves, you know, and using all the different, um, little pieces to, to really get granular on our ourselves and our type. But what I'm really interested in is, You know, okay. That's showing up for you in your life, and now what? What are you gonna do with it? You know? Mm-hmm. what's that next step for you? Yeah, I saw. I saw a, a, okay. It was a sentence. I read a sentence somewhere, that said The engram is like the ecology of who you are, where it really puts together, um, it looks at your biology, so like your genetic, like disposition and, and who you are. It looks at the psychology of how you think and feel, and then it looks at the sociology of, um, how do you fit, how do you play with other people or not, in some cases. Mm-hmm. But it just, you know, one of the. Again, one of the things I love about having learned about all of this stuff, and truth be told, in my previous career, we did teach some of those things like disk and clift and strengths, and we learned about M B T I and I think they all have a place, they all have, like you said, they, they give you descriptors, they give you things that you can think about. I didn't need to tell anybody that communication was one of my top five strengths because I'm an oxygen vampire. I already know that. But it was good to know, to be able to call out to other people. Um, so it's valuable, but this is the opportunity to really see yourself holistically. And I think exactly what you said, that sort of, um, shadow side, um, of, of our ourselves and the ways in which we get in our way, you can't, if you know the good things about yourself or if you know just the topical things about yourself, then where does the work come in? How do you get the chance to say like, This is how I communicate and now what do I get to do with that? That's, you know, the roadmap that the engram can help you see is those, exactly like you said, the blind spots, the things that get in your way that have been so much of who you are, were since the very beginning that, um, you don't, you just think it's who you are. Like this is how I've always been, it's my personality. But, um, I have four dogs and one of them is 12 and he is absolutely capable of learning new things such as Be nice to your new brother. Um, he is not yet two, but we all have the capacity to learn new things and, and take, you know, ways of doing things forever and always and doing them differently. And I think to me at least, that's where it's different, where it has that richness and that wholeness in it that. That we can lead different lives. And just before we kind of move into the, the next discussion, um, I am currently on a journey within the Enneagram Prison project, which you and I talked about. Mm-hmm. um, phenomenal program that looks at, you know, how people can see what's right about them, how they can understand what their self worth we're talking, you know, incarcerated individuals understand their self worth, understand even what their sense of self is, uh, defense mechanisms, right. Um, proclivities to addiction. All of those things that may have been part of their story to where and why they ended up, but that it doesn't have to end there. Mm-hmm. we don't see the Clifton Strengths Prison Project. Right. Like it, and it, and that's for a reason. It's because of what we get to learn about ourselves and how we can take that and, and reparent ourselves, retrain ourselves to be a more whole full version. So for anybody out there listening, you know, like Steph said, it doesn't mean you can't have a little bit of fun with it. Um, we, we do, you know, there, there was a, um, a meme about like the house that each type lived in and, um, have you seen that one? I'm sure I've seen something similar. probably. But there was one, and for the type seven it was a camper. And it's not, it's not wrong, but not every type seven wants to live in a camper. And not every type seven is an extrovert. Um, or does random acts of gymnastics. Like that's just not how we are. So it's fun. Enjoy it. But I think my advice at least would be, it's way more than that. It's way deeper. And when you learn that stuff, it's a little uncomfortable, squishy, gross, but transformative. Yeah. And I, I also love to think of it as just a curiosity building tool, like getting really curious about yourself, getting really curious about, um, what is true of you. Because when inevitably, I mean, these are archetypes that we're talking about actually. Like when we actually talk about what the engram is, rather than type, we're talking, talking about archetypes, which means that there is this assumption baked in that not every person is going to identify a hundred percent with everything that is said about that specific type. Yes. And so I always tell people like, okay, if this isn't true of you, like get really curious. There are specific things where I'm like, okay, if this part isn't true, then maybe we need to re-look at your type and see what type you actually are. But a lot of the stuff, it's like, Okay. If that's not true of you, what is true of you? Like, how can you get really curious about that? Or is it actually not true of you, or is it just a blind spot? You know? So kind of going into that, and I think one thing that really irks me is when people are like, oh, well, I'm a healthy blah, blah, blah, I've talked about this. This is a soapbox of mine. I've talked about it on my Instagram before. Um, and the reason I don't like it is one, it, it kind of is the assumption that, you know, you can just become like healed or fixed or whatever like that. There's this end point. But actually even when we, you know, you and I have both done these different, you know, programs where we're sitting with these Enneagram grades basically. Um, and hearing them talk about like, oh, actually I trip up on this every day. Like, I just notice it faster now. Um, where it's this life, the expectation is it's a lifelong journey, rather. This specific destination, and then you're fixed, and then you're healed and, and whatever. Um, and then the other thing I think that I don't like about that is, is that, um, it kind of assumes that you are somehow more worthy if you're more healthy. Yes. And I just don't believe that. I think that, you know, we all have this sense of inherent, you know, worth and goodness in us already. So, um, that's my soapbox. And you didn't ask for it, but there it is. Well, I will say, um, and again, for everybody who's listening, please go to at nine Types co find that video and save it, because it's really important. It's, it's one that's most memorable to me for that reason. Like, and when we come, we're not ready for commercial yet, but when we come back, we're gonna talk a little bit about the types of, um, or I'm sorry, the, the levels of health and development. Regardless. Our goal is not to be in the highest level because we can't, that's not sustainable. And then exactly like you said, it's not, what is that saying? Um, life isn't a or no, it's, it's the, the journey and not the destination. I should know that, that's like my life's mantra. I should absolutely know that. But, um, but, but that's like what you're speaking to. It's not about getting to this space where you know everything about yourself and you're able to control everything. What it is is that ability to see it, pause question, is this really how I, I wanna show up? Is this, you know, what is getting in my way or tripping me up. And then make a decision around how you do it better, different next time if you, if you notice it next time. But it's really that self-awareness and just seeing it like, you know, I'll give an example for. Uh, when you have a talk radio show, you have to be really cognizant of these things. But my inclination is to jump right in and start talking and I'm excited, right? I wanna, I wanna have, um, something meaningful to say that's not okay to do that and cut people off. And, and it wasn't until I started reading those kinds of things about my communication style that I was like, um, Nicky, write that down. We have to work on that It doesn't mean that I don't do it often. Yeah. Or, or occasionally. But it, what I can tell you, 1000% of the time, a little light bulb goes off in my head that says, shut, shut up. Nick right now is not the time to be interjecting. And so I think. Yeah, that's, that's been something that has, um, really resonated with me, so, mm-hmm. um, for you though, I just wanna ask you, in doing this work, um, has there been any, and you're a type three, right? Mm-hmm. we have just two minutes, so we'll try to go through this quickly. Has there been any kind of like, realization for you? Oh my gosh, so many. But I think that the thing that came to mind when you were saying that is that, that that doubling down on the image thing can shoot me in the foot. So often I've worked really hard on the emotional side. I feel like I'm a lot more connected there, but the image thing is still something that I'm working toward and saying like, oh, actually I'm not serving my clients well, if I'm that concerned about my image and that's the thing I actually care about, so how can I, you know, re. Address or, or, or readjust in order to, to serve them well. Um, knowing who I am, I love that. Yeah. And I, you know, even though I'm a, a seven, that does resonate with me. I feel, for a while I thought I was mistyped too, as a, well, I mistyped as a three, not two as, mm-hmm. Anyhow, that resonates a lot with me, and it's, it's taking a step back and thinking about, um, you know, more than ourselves, I think. we were just talking about some, um, realizations that we've had about ourselves. Um, and Steph shared, uh, hers around, you know, dropping her image and being able to be, um, more authentic in her relationships and, and, um, interactions. And I think, um, I just wanted to share mine quickly before we move into the next because it's been pretty profound in my life. So, um, my, um, spirit animal is, uh, Britney Spears. And, uh, there is an album with the Smash. Hit Circus is the name of the song, and it goes a little something like this. Uh, there's only two types of people in this world, the ones who entertain and the ones who observe, well, baby, I'm a put a show, put on a show kind of gal. Don't like the backseat. Gotta go first. End quote and that while funny because it's Britney Spears, really sticks out to me in a very deeply resonating. So my whole life I have felt like I had to perform for people beyond be up. I will absolutely and 1000% do cartwheels on demand. I was sharing with Steph earlier, I cartwheeled into an open elevator while I was at work because somebody triple dog dared me and I wasn't gonna turn it down. Um, all jokes aside, that feeling of upness, of having to be on, of having to make people laugh, it is absolutely inherently part of who I am. But let me tell you something. I get tired. I get tired like everybody else does. I have days where I'm exhausted. I have days where I don't want to, I don't wanna tell the story. I don't wanna be on the fun committee. I don't want to do those things. And so learning about myself in this capacity, I learned that it's okay to be silent. It's okay to not be the one who has to fill the silence. I also learned, and we will be talking about this much more in depth when we talk about the type seven, um, but I learned that the reason I do that is because I want other people to feel comfortable, so I don't feel uncomfortable. So that feeling of pain, of boredom, of discomfort, of someone not having a good time meant that I always had to, to do those kinds of things, and living in a camper, having this pandemic, being separated from those kinds of spaces have allowed me to sit, to read, to be quiet, to be okay in that stillness and that, you know, it may not seem like much, but in my life it has been. This other side of me that I've never gotten to explore before and feel and really appreciate. And so for me that was like this aha moment. And every type has this different aha that they go through when they start doing this work. But all I can tell you before we move into this next, um, question, it changed my life. And, and I know that I can be Nicky fun and Nicky relax, and that has been just an incredible space to be in. Yeah. That is really, truly incredible work. And I know if any other sevens are listening, they're like, how did she do it? Um, cuz I do think that that move is, is incredibly difficult, especially because for the seven. You know, those, those typical behaviors, those patterns serve you really well, you know? Yeah. And so it can be hard to unhook from, from that desire to be that person, especially when other people are relying on it. And that's exactly it. So many people rely on it. And I've had people ask me, you know, or no, not, not ask me, sorry, have said Nikki, I, I can tell your fake laugh from your real laugh, which is really exposing, by the way, cuz I don't think I'm doing, I'm not like, like, haha, you know, I'm just trying to, to laugh for whatever reason. But, but when people can tell, then I'm like, but you're not doing what you really like what people see of you and expect of you or want from you. And then why do it, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. It, it, it's hard. It's not comfortable. Um, I've had a therapist for many years tell me that I needed to learn to sit in my feelings. And I'm like, um, what? Uh, What does that mean? right? How does, yeah, how does one do that? So yeah, it's been a lot of this like discomfort, but that's the whole point, right? Mm-hmm. um, this time is just rapid flying, so I wanna take a little bit of time to talk about what, what we would maybe call like the shades of the types or, you know, what makes us all kind of different. And I think, you know, you had teed it up a little bit before the commercial break, talking about how we have these different levels of development or levels of health. Um, now for those listening, there are nine levels that has nothing to do with the nine types. there's just nine and nine and let's just keep using nine. But each of these different levels represent behaviors that we might exhibit at certain levels, right? We have healthy behaviors when we're in a, a healthy space. That's levels one, two, and three. We have our average levels, um, when we're, um, like our home base. For lack of a better term, right? Four, five, and six, and then some really not great stuff. And really unhealthy behaviors happen at seven, eight, and nine. Um, what do you think, how do you use those levels of development? What do you think is the most important part, aside from what you've mentioned earlier? Cause I think every single one of you needs to favorite that video because it's so true about not reaching and being, and all of a sudden I'm an enlightened human when I get to one, right? Mm-hmm. that's not how it works. Mm-hmm. But what do you think, um, how do you use those levels of development? How are they important to you? Yeah, it's interesting. Um, Well, I will preface this by saying there are so many different schools of thought on the engram because Yes. You know, there are different teachers and everything. And it's interesting cuz I actually use a different, you know, format, which is called Levels of Awareness. Um, I learned from Beatrice Chestnut and Iran Pies. They, um, I'm, I'm in their program and so I've learned a bit of a different approach there. But there is some similarity, some, some crossover. Um, and what I find is that when we don't use either of these models, you know, when we don't like look at these at things this way, um, I think it's easy for us to assume that natural, like where we just are in general, um, in life is in that healthy space. Mm. Um, and we forget. You know, a lot of the stereotypical behaviors of our types are in those average spaces, and a lot of us like kind of bump around in that area a lot. Um, but I do see it as more fluid in general, um, where, you know, there might be days or seasons where you are, you know, a bit more healthy and, and like really exhibiting those behaviors. And then, um, seasons where you're not, and I don't know if that's always a bad thing, but what I do really like about that levels of awareness model or um, levels of health model is the red flag warnings. Yes. Um, so like seeing when like, okay, I know for me, you know, and I try to get my, my coaching clients to identify what this looks like for them in particular. Yep. What does it look like when I am about to, to drop down there? You know, what are the things that I can kind of see coming? Like what are the antecedent or like the precursors? Um, and not saying that we always have to like diagnose ourselves or like change ourselves or more for shift, but just to have that awareness of like, okay, knowing what I need before I actually like desperately need it, is going to be way more helpful than trying to repair things afterward. Especially if we, you know, maybe we tend to really disrupt or, um, damage relationships when we're in those lower levels. Um, then, you know, we wanna, we wanna get in front of that, right? We wanna like figure that out beforehand. So, um, yeah, that's just something that I think about when I. I think about that. But I'm curious to hear how, how you use them, because it sounds like you use that specific model a bit more. Yeah. And thank you. Um, so a couple things I what you're talking about, the red flag fears, I, I probably too much, and I won't apologize for it, but I live in a world of analogies and so the way that I look at the red flag fears and, and before that we have our awareness jumpstart, right? Where we kind of, um, can see, can get the little ting. It's my stop sign. So like when I feel that awareness jumpstart where I'm starting to move down, it's me seeing a stop sign coming and I might do something like, Press the brake, uh, I might, you know, make sure I have pressed the brake soon enough. The red flag is when you get where, where you're looking at your phone or doing something you shouldn't, and you see that stop sign and you slam on your brakes and it's like, oh my God, it's right there. And to your point, the ability to sort of like take any action up until that is gone. Um, so I use that analogy and I, I love that you called out the red flag fear because I think it's really important. In the prison project we were, um, introduced to a phenomenal, uh, but super simple check in with ourselves and it's being above the line. or below the line, right? And so when we are above the line, we are in a space where we're curious, we're present, we're aware, we're open, we are kind of taking everything in and, and, and things are all right. We can be right on the line where we're we're moving up and down. I was on the line this whole week getting ready for the show because, not in a bad way, it was just, it was exciting, but at the same time terrifying. And then really exciting and just riding that line. When we go below the line, that's when our triggers happen. Our defense mechanisms, we are closed, we are not present. And so I think, you know, for me at least, when I look at that and ask myself, am I above the line? Am I in that healthier? Mentally or emotionally healthier? Or am I below the line? But to your point, being below the line doesn't have to be, it's not a bad thing. Like it's just an awareness point. Like, so I can take that and, um, let's say as an example, um, my husband asked me to empty the dishwasher and I forgot, right, and I, I'm feeling a little bit defensive, or I didn't go pick up dog poop or something that he asked me to do. Um, I can say, Nick, you're a little below the line right now. It may not be ho view to start an argument or if I have a decision that I have to make, like knowing that I'm in that space is an opportunity to say I can, I can make that decision later. You know, if there are things that I know that I can do to pull myself back to presence that are again genuine and authentic, then. Okay, go ahead and do that. But, but really it's about recognizing that and then saying, I may not be in the best space to do some of these things. And when you think about like, any really anything, relationships, parenting, um, being in, in a leadership capacity, if I have to have a difficult conversation with someone about their performance or something, if I'm below the line, how effective am I being? Right. And the answer's not so. Mm-hmm. so, yeah. And, and you're still right. And I think that's also an important call out as well, um, that we, um, I totally lost my, oh no, it came back. It came back. There are a lot of, the engram is really old and so there are a lot of different variations and ways in which we learn A lot of the stuff, terms are called different things. So it's, some people call it levels of health, levels of awareness, um, emotional development. We have, you know, core fears. We have basic fears. We have all of these different terms. And the crux of it is really exactly the dialogue that we're having. It's just about being able to see how you're showing up, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, I think we have about 10 minutes, so we're gonna get to one more question. um, before we'll be able to take callers. So I think, um, with that man, there's so much. Is there anything you, you wanna cover that you feel is really important to this dialogue? Uh, Well, I do think it's helpful for me to remember that you are going to be going into each of the types in depth, so like we keep talking around it, but just saying that, you know, there are these nine types and, and they're really important. And also, um, I just would love for people to keep in mind that, you know, it's, it's not about, um, what you do, but why you do it. Yes. And when we're looking at what your type is, um, and there are certain things of course that behaviorally show up differently. So levels of health. We've also alluded a little bit to subtypes and I hope that, that your listeners are, are curious about that. It's one of my favorite ways to look at the engram. Um, but it, it really is. More specifically at your type, um, in a way that can be really clarifying and actually lays out a specific growth path for you. And that's something that I really want people to keep in mind and I love to, to instill that with my clients too. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I absolutely love that. And I think you are a billion percent, right? That is a rough estimate. Um, mathematically correct as well, that the, the subtypes, God, if I wished for anything today, aside from winning the lottery, it would be, um, that we had time to talk about the subtypes because Yeah. You know, one of the questions that I had teed up was around like, if you were to learn the engram over again, what would you like, what would you wanna focus on or spend more time on? And I don't think. For me at least, I didn't pay enough attention to how important the subtypes were because they felt like they were such a, a sidebar to the, the structure of the engram itself, but the truth of the matter. And yes, you're right, we are going to spend time going into those different, um, subtypes and, and have more time to talk about what they are. But that really be, for me at least, between that and our levels of awareness and health is the most important part cuz it shows how each of us show up different, but what we value, right? What we value and how that's tied to why we do what we do from a survival perspective. Mm-hmm. right? So I'm really glad you called that out. Um, with that, we do wanna take the opportunity to have some collars. We have a fun little bit, uh, questions around the campfire. So cozy out, up. All the mosquitoes are still away, at least for me. I'm in Wisconsin, so there aren't mosquitoes. There are, there are always mosquitoes, but, um, not for this bit. So, um, oh, it looks like we are waiting on some colors. So, okay, so I have a question teed up here. So, Jenny had wrote in, and I think this is a great question. Um, can I change types over time or can I be two types? So what do you think? I see this all the time, I see this exact question all the time. Um, okay, so here's what's probably happening. Normally I encounter this when people go online, they type in an agram quiz and they take a quick test, and then a few years later they do the same thing again. And people who e even honestly, like if you talk with people who've even created those tests, they will say the same thing is to look. Your top three, four results, if that's the way you wanna do it, and read deeper about those. See what resonates, see what's really uncomfortable, not what you want to be true, but what feels really kind of icky about it. That is a good cue for you. So that's the first thing I'll say. Um, second thing is that you can't be two types. There are some theories that get around this, you know, that, that wiggle around it, like try types and things like that. And of course, we're throwing out all of this jargon. Um, but we, we do wanna kind of keep in mind that there is one core driving motivation and the problem with trying to, you know, be like, oh, I'm this and this and this and this and this is that. How are you going to actually move forward and how are you going to know when you're moving forward, right? If you can't focus in on and do the actual real work and, and get really curious about how your specific type is impacting you. I will also say that if you. Go beyond the type level to the subtype level. And I know we keep alluding to this thing, and, and there's, there's just so much more to learn and I wish we had, you know, five hours to talk about it. But that's where you can get more clarity because typically people, for example, if somebody is, you know, uh, a self-preservation seven, for example, they might mistype as a three yes. For a long time. And then it might take some work for them to, to figure out their true types. So, uh, I wish I had more time to talk about it, but yes, those are my, my, uh, my basic answers to that question. I love that. And it looks like we do have a caller. So we have Emily. Emily, what is your question? And thank you for calling in. Yes, hello ladies. Um, my name's Emily and I am calling in from Minnesota and I would consider myself an Enneagram Nbe Um, but I do know that I am a type six. So I really am looking forward to listening on that episode, but I recently accepted a new role, um, that I will start in May and, you know, I am feeling super excited about it, but also find myself questioning it and if it was the right move and if I will do, um, really, really well at the role. Um, so I was just curious if you guys had any advice for a type six as I prepare for jumping into this new role and, um, maybe how I can better understand why I might be feeling nervous about it. That is a wonderful question. Steph, what do you think? Oh, I would say, I mean, I'm so curious to hear what you think, of course, but I would just say you're already more prepared than you think you are. Um, that's the one thing that I really. Six is to know a lot of the time, um, is that you're more prepared than you think you are. You have all of the skills and capability that you need. And, uh, I just see so often six is selling themselves short with that and being like, oh, you know, just casually like, oh, I might know a little bit about this. And I'm like, wait, you have a PhD in that, right? Like that, that dynamic that comes up. And so, um, trust yourself in your own preparation. And remember the times when you've gotten into a situation and you couldn't quite figure it out. Like you, you were really unsure what was gonna happen, but you figured it out anyway. Remember that, remember how capable you are by remembering those times, um, and using those kind of as a model to prove to yourself, you know, you, you've got the evidence there that, that you can, you can figure. Yeah, I love that. It was, um, as they say, like budda, that was good. I like that a lot. Um, but, but I, I echo that and I, I joke all the time. My husband is a six. He's the reason that we are alive. Because if everything were left up to me, the camper would not have been fully connected to the vehicle before we left for our next trip. We, we like, I wouldn't have put things away, like we wouldn't take pads or trips that had high enough bridges. Like, these are not things I think of. And to your point Exactly. And again, something I love that I've learned in the prison project, all of those, those things that we have that sort of give us pause, whatever that, that, that blind spot might be, comes from an intelligent place. It comes from something that has protected us and helped us survive up until this point. And so we. We honor what it teaches us and, and what you said about you are ready, you are prepared. Our inclination is to keep taking it a little bit further because we get away from ourselves a little bit. And so for the six to feel like they don't have enough or they're not trusting or ready or like trust trusting of themselves really. Right. And, and I think, um, Emily, that is such a great question. That speaks to the intelligence that you possess and you are ready and you are going to do incredible and you just have to, um, let the process unfold and, um, lean into to the wonderful things that happen and see that as it. So all the six is at home are like, no, you're wrong. Right, right. But secretly thinking like, Ooh, you might have a point. No, I loved, I loved your, um, description of that and I think that is very sage advice. So, um, with that we have just a few minutes left. Um, quickly, Dave had written in asking about a piece of advice, uh, for anybody who's doing camping full time. And all I'm gonna say is, because I could talk about this too, for 12 hours, you don't need everything that you think you need. Life is about adventure. It's not about stuff you will learn along the way. It's not always pretty. Have fun. And, and the only regret that I had up until this point is that we didn't do it sooner, so, wow. Yeah. Thank you Dave. But, uh, so with that, um, Steph, I want people to be able to, uh, get ahold of you. How, how can they find you? Um, yeah, and connect and what do you, what do you got for everybody? Yeah. Well, um, follow me on Instagram. That's where you'll find everything that I offer. But, um, yeah, I offer team trainings. I, I have a master's degree in organizational communication and leadership, so and all these Ingram things. So if you wanna bring the Ingram into your team, I offer that coaching, typing, interviews. Um, I also have courses, so I, I have like just a wide range of ways that you can keep learning about the Ingram in a way that's practical and applicable, because that's the thing that I really care about. So follow me on Instagram, you'll hear everything about that. Um, or check out my website, which is nine types.co. I think that's it. Thanks so much for having me. This has been really fun. This was awesome, and the time went by so fast. It did. With that being said, thank you. This was awesome. Um, we have so much, so much, so much, so much cool stuff coming. Um, please for everybody who's listening, join us Next week we'll be starting off with the Type eight Challenger Learning all of the deep, incredible, wonderful, strong, um, things that our eight bring to our lives. So with that being said, thank you. Any afam, stay curious, stay present. Life is an adventure, and until next time, see you then. Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify