MBTI & the Enneagram with Leslie McDaniel

Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in Real Life. A podcast that will help you go beyond Enneagram theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Baron Hall, creator of nine types co on Instagram, author of the Enneagram in love, accredited Enneagram professional, and ennea-curious human, just like you. Be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram and your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now onto the show.

Welcome back to Enneagram IRL. I'm so glad you're here today. And I am thrilled to share this guest episode with you. It's a bit of an interesting one today. I have to Mostly because we're talking about Myers-Briggs type apology. And if you have delved into this type of personality,

So some at all. You know that Far beyond, you know, ENTJ or INFP or, or any of those And it's actually about what's called cognitive functions and there is so much more depth and nuance to this than I think is normally portrayed. As we, we know what the Enneagram, there are so many more things to learn and to know To really apply the system in an accurate and thoughtful way. And so when we look at. Myers-Briggs type ecology. I think that is really. Kind of the same story, like. Our guests today answered a lot of questions. And for me, You can kind of hear me struggling throughout the episode because I am like, okay, well then, so what, so what do we do it?

I really actually do know a little bit about my own specific type within this system. And Leslie and I will discuss that. But I don't know a lot about all the other types. So I'm so glad we have today's guest with us who is Leslie McDaniel. So Leslie is a coach personality consultant and podcast host for creative and ambitious problem solvers.

Who want to rediscover who they are and what matters most through the lens of personality type. So they can live each day with purpose and intention. She can help you take your Myers-Briggs or any grand personality type from a casual curiosity to a life-changing path for growth. And you can find Leslie on her podcast, which is the hello personality podcast.

Her website, which is hella personality.com or her Instagram, which is, @HeyHiHelloPersonality. And today's episode, we heard a little bit from Leslie with her being in Enneagram Four, and what that looks like for her and how that kind of shows up in the way that she navigates these things. And we also answered a bunch of questions from listeners. So I hope you really enjoy this episode and I hope you learned something new and if nothing else, I hope it piques her interest just enough to pop over to Leslie's podcasts and give a listen. So without further ado, here's Leslie.

Steph Barron Hall: Well, Leslie, welcome to the Enneagram IRL podcast. I'm so glad you're here.

Leslie McDaniel: Thank you. I'm happy to be here and thank you for having me.

Steph Barron Hall: Of course, I am so excited to chat with you, and I know that my listeners will be really excited about this as well, because I just wanna give a little backstory, but we started talking a little while back because we were both in CP Enneagram so in, the enneagram certification program. And I wrote an email and you responded to it and said, do you know your Myers Briggs type?

Steph Barron Hall: And I knew that you had done Myers Briggs and I knew what I thought my type probably was. and so you're like, huh, well that's interesting. Well, let's talk a little bit more. And so we ended up doing a typing interview and I was mistyped, and so that was super interesting for me. But can I just ask you what made you kind of like, respond to that  and get curious about that?

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah, well I'm, my radar is always out, right for, I'm listening for these things. It's just, it's difficult to turn off. So as I was reading through what you had written, I was like, oh my gosh, that sounds like, so this type, and uh, so that's why I was curious.

Steph Barron Hall: We can say what it is.

Leslie McDaniel: Okay, well , it sounded very extroverted thinking, which is part of the E N T J personality type.

Leslie McDaniel: And um, so I was just kind of checking too, you know, cause I trust the person, um, who, you know, if you've discovered your type previously, I don't wanna deny that. So you shared with me what you thought your type was and I was like, Oh, that's really interesting. It's not what I'm seeing, but like, if you wanna talk about it further, then let's do it.

Leslie McDaniel: Cuz I'm driven by curiosity too. Like, I wanna know, am I seeing this correctly or am I wrong? Like, I'm always trying to calibrate, you know, what I'm, what I'm hearing and seeing and learning.

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. That's so interesting too, because I think my response was essentially I took a test a long time ago. It said I was E N F P. I was like, that seems to make sense. Then a colleague actually who was uh, trained and does corporate M B T I teaching,  she was like, I think you're probably a T not an F.

Steph Barron Hall: She's like, Don't get me wrong. You're, you know  I find you to be compassionate and I really like you, but she's like, I think you're a T not an F.. And I was like, Oh, okay. Like, you know, sure, that sounds good, you know. And then, um, but then once we actually talked through it and we had our typing interview, I feel like it was so clear to me the E N T J and a little bit, it was a little bit hard, I think, a little bit like, Oh, I don't really like that, because it really highlighted my tendency to overemphasize what is practical and like that I can feel and touch and really underemphasize  maybe some of the more spiritual or emotional aspects of reality.

Steph Barron Hall: So that, I thought that was just really interesting.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I have a similar experience cuz I am also an E N T J and I had a similar experience of like, ooh, I don't know, I don't really, I still don't resonate with a lot of the stereotypes around this type. Um, but you know, that with my Enneagram type, which we can talk about later if you'd like, but, uh, I don't like to be put into a box of any kind and didn't want to have any parts of me to be, um, pushed by the wayside, you know?

Leslie McDaniel: So I wanted to make sure it was all encompassing and, uh, yeah,  it's interesting. It's something to keep in mind about all personality type systems I think, is that it's not the end all be all. It's not a box, it's just like a guide and human beings, you know, the mass of humanity, there's so much nuance in how we can show up in these systems, even with people of the same type.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: Absolutely. Well, going with that word nuance, let's talk a little bit about that and talk about your experience with the enneagram, and what got you interested in the enneagram. What helped you find your type? What is your type?

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah, I wish I could remember like the root of it. Um, I don't really remember where it began. I'm always. Interested in learning about myself and learning about other people. And I do remember taking a class in which it was brought up and I think that probably was the first time where I really began to dig into it.

Leslie McDaniel: It was like a creative class. My type in the enneagram  is a self-preservation four which does sound a little bit contradictory to my Myers Briggs type, uh, on the surface. But the more that I've worked with both of them, they fit so well together for me in the particular things that I struggle with. Um, but yeah, I discovered the Enneagram and I thought it was interesting at first, it's like a lot of personality type systems.

Leslie McDaniel: We come across a type, we read a description, we're like, Oh yeah, you know, that really says some things about me. But it didn't take it really too far until the last few years. And I really began to apply it personally to my life, not just in my business life, but um, and have done a lot of really deep work with  my particular innate ground patterns.

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. That's so interesting. I think because you're kind of highlighting one of the things that a lot of people were asking me about, which is this thing about the enneagram and Myers Briggs. And can, do they have to align in a specific way or can they be really different? And what do we do when that happens?

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah. So I guess under that question is like, are there any contradictions? Like are there any people who can't be certain Enneagram types, if they're a Myers-Briggs type and so on and so forth? Um, I would say any type, it's all a fair game. What I've found is that there are really fascinating overlaps when I find,  clients, you know, both types of my clients and I've had the privilege of working with a lot of people in both systems.

Leslie McDaniel: And it never fails yet the thing that they need to work on with their Enneagram type, you know, cuz there's a lot of facets of things that we can pinpoint as growth areas that tends to work with the Myers-Briggs, type as well, the areas that need to be addressed there as well. And that's true for my life in my two types as well.

Leslie McDaniel: So I just, every time I find it and it fits together like that, it's just, it feels so good because,  yeah, it to me it's more, I don't know if I say proof is the, it's not really the right word, but more evidence I guess, that these systems work and they make sense and they really are telling us something about ourselves.

Leslie McDaniel: So I would say there's no, um, you know, there's no Myers-Briggs type that can't be a certain enneagram type, but there are trends, you know, there are patterns of certain types are more likely to be, uh, particular enneagram types. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: Oh yeah. Okay. That's interesting.

Leslie McDaniel: Mmh.

Steph Barron Hall: Do you know off the top of your head what some of the patterns are?

Leslie McDaniel: I was like, Okay, she's gonna ask me that

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Leslie McDaniel: And I hesitate to say them because, you know, there are going to be exceptions obviously. And  I don't want to lead into the, you know, someone's like, well I don't, you know, cause I don't wanna cause questioning if people if it seems contradictory, but I'll just give one, maybe one example and that maybe that will suffice.

Leslie McDaniel: But, So let's take extroverted thinking the function that you and I both use. Um, what I've seen is that there tends to be a lot of extroverted thinking users as type threes and type ones and type eights. Um, I've also met several E N T Js who are self press fours, actually. But what I would say is that I look at the individual.

Leslie McDaniel: We haven't talked about this yet, but there's something called the mental functions. And I think there are patterns among which mental functions tend to line up with which numbers. So all people in the Myers Briggs, all Myers Briggs types have four main mental functions. So that can be on a lot of overlap with a lot of, uh, enneagram types.

Leslie McDaniel: So extroverted thinking, like I said, I've seen that a lot with type threes and type ones and type eights. or other types, other enneagram types use, uh, extroverted thinking, yes, of course. But those, that's just one example of a trend that I've seen.

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because it kind of aligns with the way that their Enneagram type is expressed as well.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah, absolutely. I was saying before, I think, you know, we're all unique and we're all individuals. So the one area. In our enneagram type that needs to be addressed or whether, usually more than one, but the one that seems to be most pressing or the one that we've had trouble with maybe throughout our lives tends to be the area that also needs to be addressed with your Myers-Briggs type

Steph Barron Hall: Uh, yes. That unfortunate thing. And I've actually found that for myself too, across all the different systems that I've kind of dabbled in a little bit. Like, for example, human design or even astrology, like getting my birth chart read and being like, Oh, those are the same things I need to work on, um, within my enneagram type.

Steph Barron Hall: It's just really fascinating how much alignment there can be.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah. It's like continual confirmation . It's like, Okay, I get it. This is, this is my work.

Steph Barron Hall: This is the thing I need to do. Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm really curious. I wanna get back to the mental functions  and hear a little bit more about that from you. But I also would love to hear a little bit about, you know, how you got here. Like you're working with these two systems, you have a podcast that's all about personality.

Steph Barron Hall: And I think a lot of the time I find fours, I don't like to generalize too much with fours, of course, but I do think a lot of it

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Uh, a lot of fours love personality things like they love these, all these different descriptions and I think it, it is because it's a tool for introspection, I think but  I'm curious to hear a little bit about your story and what drew you even to this type of work in general.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah. Yeah. That's a wide question, but I would say as a four and just as someone who's really into personal development and personality type, I've always been driven to understanding myself, understanding. my identity, understanding who I am, like all the different layers. And a lot of times there have been question marks around that too.

Leslie McDaniel: Um, so I think my search for understanding myself, um, understanding how I can exist in this world in a way that feels good, feels authentic, feels like it's full of integrity. And also I'm really passionate about the potential that's in within all of us, myself and others. And so I think all of those things

Leslie McDaniel: It was a natural path towards personality type systems because they're frameworks of understanding who we are. It's like it helps turn a mirror towards us and it's a lens through which we can observe ourselves in the world. So I think knowing that, you know, the things that I tend to be passionate about also tend to show up in my work, it makes sense then that I also wanted to have a business around this work that's been so personally impactful to me.

Leslie McDaniel: Um, and that I find so powerful and just really fascinating. It is my passion and  it's the thing I do in my work too. So those things have almost always overlapped in my life.

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. And I think even just learning more about you and hearing the way that you talk about things actually, I find this with a lot of self-preservation force. I'm sorry, I did it again. I generalized again, but I

Leslie McDaniel: I'll take it.

Steph Barron Hall: I find a lot of self press fours have a really specific way of, pulling things together in a way that is almost.poetic, but it's not. Does that make sense? Like the way that  things are communicated is so thorough and specific, using really well thought through words and vocabulary and everything like that, and like kind of bringing things together in that really tied up and um, thoughtful way that doesn't sound, you know, melodramatic or, or any of the things that people often stereotype about for us.

Steph Barron Hall: And so I think that's really interesting because it feels like a natural fit for them, for you to then use that in teaching and in your podcast.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah, I mean, personality systems to me are languages, and so I'm even just in, you know, regular speaking, referencing what you just said. I'm very interested in finding the right way to communicate something in a way that is beautiful or visual or that just gets the thing that I'm trying to say from here and here into the other person.

Leslie McDaniel: And so personality type systems as languages, like it's a good fit. It fits really well and so I appreciate you pointing that out. And I think it, it makes sense to me too,

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm really curious. Okay, if now that we've kind of given that little bit of a background here, um, if you could share a little bit of a brief overview of the system and, and why it's beneficial. And I know in our pre-prepared questions, I mentioned the 16 types I think, but I also know that the way that you look at them is really from that cognitive function aspect.

Steph Barron Hall: So, um, I think that's one of the misunderstandings that I had when I first spoke with you about that. I was like, Oh, it's like, um, Just one letter off. It's not that different. But then, from what it, our conversation, I found that it's really changing the way the cognitive functions are used and the way that things kind of operate.And I'm curious if you can explain that briefly. Of course. Yeah.

Leslie McDaniel: yeah, I'll do my best to keep it brief, but, um, so let me just give a really, really brief intro into the system and how it came about. I call it the 16 type system because I don't think it's purely Myers-Briggs. Um, Carl Young, the psychologist or a psychiatrist developed an understanding or a theory about mental functions or brain wiring.

Leslie McDaniel: We call them the cognitive functions. Myers and Briggs, a mother and daughter duo, came along and wanted to make his work more accessible to people. So they created this assessment called the M B T I, the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, and essentially scrubbed a lot of the cognitive functions and just went with the, you know, the top four letters of our personality type, like E N T J and made it a little more accessible.

Leslie McDaniel: They added that J letter to the system. So, Really quickly, um, hopefully this is quickly, but there are basically four mental functions that Carl Young identified. And whenever you find your top four letters, it's a code for your mental functions that you use. Each of those four mental functions can be either oriented towards the external world or the internal world.

Leslie McDaniel: So that makes eight altogether. So I'll mention too  that you have two decision making functions. They're thinking and feeling, so either your head or your heart. and there are two learning functions called sensing and intuition. And of those four, again, remember, they can each be externally oriented or internally oriented.

Leslie McDaniel: That's where you get things like extroverted think. There's also introverted thinking and the same with all the other letters. So I don't know. That's a really quick, just top level description of what's included. Um, one last thing is that when you find your four letters, you find which of the four, which four functions are most accessible to you and which ones you're, you tend to be using more often than the others.

Leslie McDaniel: Even though we can use all of them, just like we can access some aspects of all the Enneagram types, we can also ask, uh, access different aspects of all of the mental functions.

Steph Barron Hall: Okay, so basically, I'm just gonna paraphrase because I feel like, um, I don't know this well enough to really be catching on fully. So I just wanna check for understanding. So when I look at E N T J, what that's telling, like for you as you look at it, that's telling you, um, a specific order of functions that I most likely use.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: And then is it like some e t js have introverted thinking or no? It's like all E NT js use extroverted thinking.

Leslie McDaniel: Yes. All E N T Js use the same four main functions. Now, the way that they're expressed could look a little differently cuz we're looking at their behavior. And the same with the enneagram. Like when we're looking at behaviors, um, people can look a little differently even though there's the same underlying motivation for the Enneagram.

Leslie McDaniel: With Myers Briggs, there's the same underlying mental wiring of making decisions and learning information, but it can be expressed a little bit differently depending on the person and a lot of different factors about their life.

Steph Barron Hall: Okay, cool. So then if people are just getting to know this, what do you think is the really, maybe like the most accessible first step? Because I think, you know, obviously I did a typing interview with you and it, it sounds like, and I've actually chatted with a couple of other people who, uh, who've done it as well and they're like, Oh, I was mistyped and I didn't realize that.

Steph Barron Hall: Um, and I'm curious, one, how do people get accurately typed and then what is that first accessible step that they can take once they know their type?

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah, so I don't, I, I'm sure you probably feel similarly about this, but I think the best way for anyone to find their personality type is self exploration. Giving it time. If you take a test, that's totally fine, but just use it as one like a nugget of information. Um, don't give it the full authority to be like, This is who you are.

Leslie McDaniel: always use it to, to self reflect. So the same as with both systems. Like it's, it's really easy to get mistyped if you only relate or only use, um, you know, a test. Or maybe you just read a description and that's about behaviors and you're like, Oh yeah, I do that and I do that, and I do that. So I would say, if you are lucky enough to find it.

Leslie McDaniel: Your type, um, through the self-observation and, you know, good information that's guiding you. I would say the first thing would be to, um, to understand your, what I, what i, what's called your dominant function or the first function that is kind of your flow state, the one that you're always in. I like to help people see that because many times it's unconscious because we're doing it so automatically and there's a, the it's counterpart is going to be completely ignored, or not completely, but very often ignored.

Leslie McDaniel: So let's, let me give an example. Extroverted thinking is  the main function for E N T J. It's thinking oriented in the external world. The opposite then would be feeling oriented towards the inner world. Such an introverted feeling. And when a person is able to look at their first and last functions, they can see that they're way overdoing that first one.

Leslie McDaniel: And generally not giving as much attention to  the last one in their sequence. So I think that's, you know, one really great way to start  because those pieces are things that they're first of all doing all the time and not doing very much and the idea would be to bring just a little bit of that,  last one, the, what we call the inferior.

Leslie McDaniel: Bring a little bit of that flavor into your dominant function and you're gonna be more integrated, more, uh, well rounded. You're going to see the world in a, um, a more holistic way. Um, and I think you'll see really immediate changes by doing that. That's generally what I like people to start with, you know, the middle two functions, we could talk about those two as growth areas, but I would say that main function and understanding it and observing it in their life and how it's playing out in all aspects, that's probably the best way to start.

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. It kind of reminds me of when we talk about the enneagram the instincts too. Like when your dominant instinct is so out of control and you don't even realize it, and then learning to just skip like the repressed instinct. Like a little help along the way and like kind of pushing it along.

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.

Leslie McDaniel: yeah. It's very similar. Very, very similar in that it just needs a little bit of attention, you know? And as you grow older, hopefully the ideas that you're gonna be raising those things up, um, that aren't being paid as much attention to and kind of taming the ones that you are giving way too much attention to.

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. And I think a theme that I've been seeing actually this entire year, just something I've been talking with a lot of people about and thinking a lot about is how much our strengths overdone become our weaknesses. Like,

Leslie McDaniel: Hm.

Steph Barron Hall: and how much, when we overdo our strengths, they kind of end up keeping us stuck and it's like learning to really fine tune our strengths in a way that's actually helpful. Um, and yes, of course using them and leaning on them, I think that's really crucial as well. But also recognizing maybe even using our strengths in service of some of the weaknesses. So like, um, I don't know. I'm, I'm just trying to think of like, if I'm somebody who really likes a sense of output in the world, like I think that's something we talked about with the J.

Steph Barron Hall: Um, then using that as almost a strength to be like, okay, I need to do more introverted feeling. So how can I maybe produce something? But that's like, just for me, that is getting more in tune with emotion, whether that's like journaling could be it for me or painting. I'm just trying to think of some of the things that have really been useful for me.

Steph Barron Hall: It's embarrassing that I do painting because I'm not good at it, but it's one of those things that I really focus on, like kind of having some of those secret things now. It's not secret anymore , but that I, um, that I do that, that helps me to tap into just purely being with myself and with that emotional world, I'm curious if we could talk a little bit about a different, type and if you have any examples that those types could use.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah. Well, there's 16 types, so, I can't get to everyone, but is there any particular type you'd like me to talk about? Um, or just pick one?

Steph Barron Hall: Um, well, I'm, I am curious about I N F J

Leslie McDaniel: Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: only because I have heard a lot of people say that it is the most rare type and also like half of the people on Instagram say they're INFJ so I'm confused.

Leslie McDaniel: Well, you're very observant, so . Um, okay, so a couple things. Um, the infj type, the, the rarest, uh, description of types comes from the Myers Briggs. I forget if it's like the foundation, the people who run the Myers Briggs type indicator. And they take the amount of people who've taken the test and then they figure out like, you know, what are the least amount of people who've taken it and so on and so forth.

Leslie McDaniel: So just sit with that for a second that that's where the data's coming from, that one place. And

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.

Leslie McDaniel: all tests are self-reported. So back in the day, I don't remember when, not the most recent results, but back before that, the results that were out did put INFJ as the quote rarest type. The most recent information that came out of the same place was, I think 2017, 20like November, 2017.

Leslie McDaniel: Uh, INFJs are no longer in that rarest, uh, group, so let's just put that aside. Um, the second thing is that INFJ tends to be one of the most common mistypes because anyone who is sensitive or feels a lot or feels intuitive in any way, um, or feels different or unique is going to come out as a nine of J on a test. Generally speaking. Now that's a very blanket broad statement, but I also thought I was a nine of J for many years. Um, I knew it wasn't exactly right, uh, but I thought of all the types that it seemed to fit best.

Leslie McDaniel: So I would say there's a lot of reasons why. And INFJ you know, and I met like. A lot of INFJ’s, a lot of INFJs over my time. Um, I used to work with in INFJ’s and I found out how many people were mistyped. Um, so not to disparage the people who actually are in  buINFJ’ s. I think it's very, being in, INFJ and the, the way those functions play out is very different than the way it's described online.

Leslie McDaniel: If you look at the typical in INFJ description online, it looks like someone who has a crystal ball who's like all knowing it, can read your mind and, you know, . I mean, there's some things that they can do that are really unique and special, but, So can all the other types and in fjs have very unique struggles, just like all the other types.

Leslie McDaniel: So I don't know if I answered your question, but hopefully I address that. And it's kind of a, a bit of a running joke, uh, amongst many of us who do this, this personality type system that, you know, Oh, I'm an IMFJ. Oh, I'm anINFJ, because, uh, it's just so common to be mistyped as that. Um, the real, real struggle and problem with that is that there's so many people who could benefit from knowing their actual type if they could find it.

Leslie McDaniel: And if, if the label is what they want, then totally fine. That's, you know, that's okay. But I think there's not, not much that comes from just knowing a label. And when you really get into the functions, and figure out what it is, like we talked about, that you're way overdoing and the part that you're way underdoing, um, which, Oh yes.

Leslie McDaniel: I'll give that example. So for in of J's, they lead with a function called introverted intuition. And it's all about recognizing patterns in your mind and kind of running scenarios around how things are going to play out. Now you might recognize some of that language sounds very six-ish, doesn't it? , you know, running scenarios about how things are going to work.

Leslie McDaniel: So that's another pattern I've seen. A lot of sixes tend to have introverted intuitions somewhere in there for functions. Doesn't mean that they're all INFJs or INTJ’s or anything like that, um, but they tend to be in that space of it's intuitive. Function. Right? So it's not connected to what's happening right now.

Leslie McDaniel: It's not connected to the concrete or what we actually know. It's all forecasting, uh, what's going on. They spend so much time there that they really are disconnected in a lot of ways from the real world of extroverts sensing what's happening in the moment. Um, like just even writing things down, like I know so many INFJs and INTJ’s, who everything's in their mind and writing it down is a sensory task that they just don't do because it's not really on their radar very much.

Leslie McDaniel: Um, and they can tend to just kind of be in their own world about things and let some of the sensory. Things that have to be done in the sensory world, go. Um, and that's again, not to disparage any INTJs and INFJs who lead with that function. I have friends, really close friends who are these types.

Leslie McDaniel: Um, they're wonderful people, but they struggle with things just like, um, the other types. Another thing about INFJs I think FJ’smany people who consider themselves highly sensitive, myself being included in that, uh, really resonate with the ways in f js are described online, which may or may not be completely accurate.

Leslie McDaniel: It's kind of drawing upon that piece of like, we're very sensitive, so we must be in of js. And it's not always the case.

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. And I think, um, when I just think about the type of person who is drawn to this sort of personality thing, there is a natural level of sensitivity because it's an awareness of like, I wanna understand and know myself. I also wanna understand and know other people.

Steph Barron Hall: And so I think there's a natural level of sensitivity and awareness around that, that this type of person would have. And so that makes sense to me why that would be so popular. Um, I think we've already answered this a little bit, but I'm curious if you have any other thoughts you wanna share on this question.

Steph Barron Hall: I, so I wanna get into the listener questions now. Um, could an enneagram of an MBTI. Make it look like a different type.

Leslie McDaniel: Okay. I think what they're asking is like, if you are a certain N M B T I type, could your Enneagram type make you look like a different N B T I type than someone of your same type? I'm, I'm guessing that's what they're meaning. Um, and I, I would say, again, there's kind of a nuance here, and it goes back to what I was saying earlier.

Leslie McDaniel: Let's say E N T J, for example, or e FJ or infj or isfj, whatever type we're talking about, not every isfj is going to, um, to act or behave in the same way all the time. Their enneagram type is gonna have a major flavor, is going to really impact how that plays out. So if you're looking, if you're actually looking at the brain wiring level, then you're still going to look like that isfj type, for example, no matter what your enneagram type is.

Leslie McDaniel: So, um, hopefully I'm answering the question for the person, but just like with the enneagram, you have to look at the motivation, the underlying motivation with the Myers Briggs, or  16 type system, you have to look at the brain wiring. How are you making decisions, and what kind of information are you focusing on when you're learning sensory or intuitive data?

Leslie McDaniel: So if you go back to that, then you will always find that that common. Denominator among all people of the same type behavior, It might look different for sure. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: I'm thinking

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah. Does that help? Or Hopefully that's not confusing.

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, it does help. I think like one of the, the questions that people often ask or wanna know is like, which one's deeper? Do you know what I mean? Like, which one is really at the root of things? And the way that I think about it is very much like it's all part of a puzzle. Um, I think the way that Myers Briggs is often described is, or the 16 types, maybe in the way that you teach it, is often more behavioral.

Steph Barron Hall: Um, but I do kind of, it's almost like the 16 types. It's like, um, How you think, how you make decisions, all of that stuff. Um, and the enneagram is why? Well, one, it's a lot of wounding. Right. But it's also why you approach things the way that you do

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah, so you didn't necessarily ask a question, but I'm gonna go off on something you said that the question about which one is deeper. Um, you know, I'm a four, so I like deep . Um, but I do think the way that the Meyers Briggs system, just Meyers Briggs, not like the cognitive functions the way that it's perceived in popular co culture.

Leslie McDaniel: Is that it's like, Oh, it's this test you take for work and you figure out what kind of career you're going to get, or something like that. And I think it has been used that way. I personally don't believe it should be used that way. Um, and I think if you get under, underneath to that layer, as I talked about with the cognitive functions, and even we could go deeper with Carl Young's work on the shadow, the unconscious, you know, if we get into those areas, like there's a lot of depth here that people are just scratching the surface by.

Leslie McDaniel: And in the same way with the enneagram, you know, if you just look at your type, your core type and look at the behaviors and say, Oh, I'm a four, so I must be creative and I must be an artist, and I must, you know, go around expressing my feelings all the time. Which may or may not be true, but, um, if you only look at those things, then it's, you're, you're missing out on so much.

Leslie McDaniel: And so to the question of which one is deeper, I think that's a difficult, uh, I think it would be difficult to define and it would depend on what you're, what you're meaning when you say that. I think both offer a lot of depth, um, and a lot of nuance. Um, I personally believe the enneagram is likely more multifaceted in the types of things that you can work on.

Leslie McDaniel: Um, you talk about the instincts, right? We're talking about wings and lines and your, uh, center of intelligence and like, there's a lot of different areas, um, that you can work through with the functions. There is a lot you can work through as well, but it's really your mental brain wiring. That's really what we're talking about.

Steph Barron Hall: Okay. Yeah, that, that's helpful. I think, um, it also opened up all these other questions for me, but , I'm just gonna control myself here.

Leslie McDaniel: I'm hoping for whatever you want,

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. So I, I'm curious, we talked a little bit about the cognitive functions. Somebody asked, what does each letter stand for and mean? And I think this is a good question and we can a like talk about it if you'd like, but it sounds like from the way that you approach the system, it's not really about those individual letters, it's more so about what they indicate about

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: the functions.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah. And I didn't go through those letters, so I will do that. But I think, you know, just talking about it being a language, ENTJ, ISTJ, whatever, that's a code for us to speak a common language if we understand what it means. So, um, the first letter would be, where is your, where does your energy naturally flow to the external world?

Leslie McDaniel: Or the internal world. And so it would be extrovert or introvert. And there's a lot of confusion about what this word means cuz there's a lot of different types of extroversion. It's not just about being around people. Um, the second letter then would be that learning function that we talked about. So either sensing more concrete, uh, things that we can, we know have happened and we can rely upon, or intuitive information, things that haven't happened that we're kind of making a guess about something, we're jumping to something and understanding without having all the raw data.

Leslie McDaniel: So sensing your intuition, S or N. The third letter is how you tend to prefer to make decisions, T or f, thinking or feeling. So more objective, logical data or more feeling emotional value based data. And then the last letter can get confusing on what it means. It's J or P. The words that Myers and Briggs put together are judging and perceiving.

Leslie McDaniel: Even just that word can get confusing because we have judging functions and perceiving functions.  but essentially what it means is kind of, um, that we all want structure and we all want freedom. It's just which world do you tend to prefer that in?  Now you can look at those letters and draw some, some conclusions, but, and even if you take the official Myers Briggs test, it's only giving you those top letters.

Leslie McDaniel: It's not based on the functions. Um, but if you take those letters and look at the functions, you could see how, like for you, for example, you thought you were a P type, uh, with the freedom and the flexibility, the more freedom and flexibility in the external world. But it's really based on a type of function that's called an extroverted perceiving function and where it's located and how much you kind of access that external learning function.

Leslie McDaniel: So all that to say the functions can really make the top letters confusing and can make you think, like for example, oh, it's just one letter difference. Um, that one letter changes all the functions many times

Steph Barron Hall: Okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Um, and when you, how do you know is it something you just have to memorize? Like you just have to memorize in these four letters, these are the functions? Or is there kind of a way to be able to be like, Oh, you know, E modifies T so then that puts T in the driver's seat.

Leslie McDaniel: Mm, yes. I probably will not be able to explain it very well at the moment. Um, I have just learned through sheer practice and repetition of kind of knowing,  there are certain patterns. I feel like if I kind of get into that, that might be a little bit confusing and beyond what we've already talked about.

Leslie McDaniel: So I don't really wanna get into that too much. But I think if someone is interested, if someone listening is interested in this system, I would start with your own type and really get to your own functions and understand what your top four functions are. Which direction they're oriented in order outward.

Leslie McDaniel: And we call those your overall preferences, cuz you, you do both, you do all the things, um, and start there. And once you kind of understand that baseline, then you can branch out and start to go, uh, to understand the other functions and understand the patterns of how the whole system works. I love learning, so I understand the desire to wanna learn it all and understand it all, but going back to personal application and the whole point of learning about personality type, in my opinion, is personal transformation.

Leslie McDaniel: So turn it on yourself first and then decide to kind of like, get in the head maybe and figure out some of the other patterns and interesting concepts. I think if you see it in yourself first, it will help make sense of the rest of the system.

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. And I think, um, I, I think I saw on your podcast you recently have been going through the cognitive functions in more detail. Is that right?

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah. So I went through the top letters and kind of the myths about those letters, E versus I and so on. And then the most recent, well, I don't know when this podcast is gonna come out, but what some of the most recent episodes are about the function relationships, like we talked about earlier, that first and last one, and the middle two in the sequence of four.

Leslie McDaniel: And there's really cool things that you can learn about yourself by see, by knowing which functions you have and where they're at in that sequence. And it's a tool for self-observation to know what to see about yourself, what, how you're showing up in the world.

Steph Barron Hall: Okay, cool. I think people will really enjoy that. So I will definitely link your podcast, but it's called The Hello Personality. Right.

Leslie McDaniel: The Hello Personality Podcast.

Steph Barron Hall: cool. So I will link it in the show notes to make sure that people can check that out. Um, a couple more questions. Can you think of some practical differences between sensing and intuition?

Steph Barron Hall: Like for people who are trying to, Is that Yes. S and n? Yeah. how people are trying to figure out which one is their main function.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah, so before I answer that, just notice that or know that if you have the sensing and intuition in the middle of that sequence of four that I've been referencing, if you have them in the middle, you're going to bounce back and forth between them both just like I do and just like, uh, you do as an E N T J.

Leslie McDaniel: So you're gonna bounce back and forth between those and connect with both sides to a degree. It's only when those functions get farther apart, like the first and the fourth, that we really see distinct differences between them, the two. So with that said, I'm going to speak more in terms of like if you're, you have a sensing function first, or an intuitive function first.

Leslie McDaniel: The main differences here would be if you have a sensing function first, it's going to be much, you're going to be much more concrete and rooted in what you already know, either through your own personal experience or through the experience of other people. And or maybe even like what an expert has said is you know, tried and true.

Leslie McDaniel: It's rooted and grounded in what we can know for sure through our senses to some, to some degree through our body the intuitive function then if you lead with an intuitive function, it's gonna be very heavily weighted on looking at patterns, not looking at the details or the concrete things.

Leslie McDaniel: You're gonna be looking at what it means and the overarching theme, or how different concepts connect to each other. You're not looking at any of the raw data, like, you know, this pen is gold, or whatever that is the sensory data, The intuitive data would be, you know, what I do with this, so maybe I use this to change the world, or something like that.

Leslie McDaniel: Um, it's a very simplistic example, but if you lead with a sensing or intuitive function, those differences are gonna be very much more, uh, evident. Having them in the middle though again, is going to, you're gonna be bouncing back and forth between the more intuitive, conceptual, abstract. World that we can't prove because it hasn't happened or the sensory world that we do know and can understand in a more concrete way.

Leslie McDaniel: Does that help?

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, that makes sense to me and I think when I think of it, kind of imagining, I feel like this is a bit of a stereotype because I love to bake, but, um, the difference between people who bake and people who cook. So baking is a science and it's expected that you follow the exact recipe as stated because there's a lot of different reactions happening.

Steph Barron Hall: Like it's, there's a lot of, you know, chemistry to it, um, and the way that things work, and you have to be really specific and really exact versus cooking where there's a lot more leeway because you can just do it on the fly and you can, um, make it up as you go and experiment. Now, I say I love to bake.

Steph Barron Hall: I bake like a cook though, so I'm always trying something new. I'm always like, let's see what will happen if I use this type of sugar instead of this, you know.

Leslie McDaniel: Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: it's just how I am, I think in general, but I, that's kind of the way that I can picture it really easily, where it's like a baker is somebody who is following everything to the tea exactly the same way every time because it's based on how the recipe is written, how it's supposed to go, like taking that more straightforward approach and like very, um, meticulous and like not necessarily regimented in a negative way, but in a way that's like, this is the process I can follow to get this result.

Steph Barron Hall: Versus a cook who is, you know, kind of just figuring things out and like having these strokes of genius maybe, or huge failures either way. But it's like really trying to sense what is going to work on the fire.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah, I think that's a really good, helpful understanding. I think there's a little bit of nuance there. the by the way, I don't do either of those. I follow the rules when I'm cooking or baking . I'm not, I'm not good at either one. Um, but I think, you know, if you're talking about experimentation, that's a little bit different than intuition.

Leslie McDaniel: So experimentation could be sensory based if you're experimenting with the different ingredients, right? Or you could be experimenting with mental concepts and cons, constructs, and finding connections between them, which would be an extroverted, intuitive type function. Um, but yeah, the intuition is more about coming up with new concepts that don't exist.

Leslie McDaniel: Cause again, we're talking about learning, so it's coming. New ideas that haven't yet happened or putting things together in a pattern. The type of intuition that I use is, you know, instead of looking all the individual things that have happened, it's coming up with the major theme or the gist of it, or the overarching understanding, like keeping that one thing, that abstraction instead of all the individual experiences.

Leslie McDaniel: So that's an example of how those two, there's two types, or excuse me, how extroverted sensing and introverted intuition play out, um, two of the sensing and intuition functions.

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Um, okay. One other question that somebody brought up is on this topic and they are curious about the biggest difference between ISTJ and ISFJ.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah. Okay. So both of those types do lead with the. Main function called introverted sensing, and the same last function called extroverted intuition. The difference is what's in the middle. So because one is a thinking preference overall, they're going to have an extroverted thinking function. The IS FJ is going to have an extroverted feeling function, and the other function that pairs with it will be, uh, introverted in the opposite as well.

Leslie McDaniel: So, uh, sorry, I don't wanna get too deep into this cuz I feel like I, I can get into the, the rabbit hole with these types of questions, but, um, yeah, the main difference is in and overall extroverted thinking function compared to an extroverted feeling function. Um, and, and they're, they're counterparts so, Extroverted feeling is compared with introverted thinking and extroverted thinking is paired with introverted feeling.

Leslie McDaniel: And those are the different functions that are in the middle for those two types. So yeah, they have a greater overall focus on thinking data for the ISTJ greater overall focus on the feeling data for making decisions.

Steph Barron Hall: Okay. Yeah, that makes

Leslie McDaniel: Does that help

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah. I'm just like making sure I'm, I'm tracking. Um, yeah. And it sounds like for you, just throughout our conversation, it's really that person going back to their own life and their own reflection and, and noticing which one of those that they use or prioritize more.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah. And it's interesting with anytime you look at extroverted judging functions, so functions that are about making decisions related to the standards of the external world, both extroverted thinking and extroverted feeling. Are based on the external world. So it can get tricky to see am I using extroverted thinking or am I using extroverted, extroverted feeling?

Leslie McDaniel: Um, so you can see this is not just about Tier F, it's about like, how do the each of those functions play out? And that's where it's really helpful to do your own study and get really quality information or hire someone to help you and then go and observe yourself, uh, through that lens. And see is my, is my, um, Decision making function mostly towards what thinking data would be.

Leslie McDaniel: So is it about what works? Is it about being productive? Is it about just getting things done? Um, or is it more about creating emotional harmony with groups of people? Is it more about getting us all on the same page and emo an emotional vibe and feeling good together? Is that the end result that would be extroverted feeling?

Leslie McDaniel: Or is it more about moving people towards a goal? Like I said earlier, getting things done, being productive, that would be more in the extroverted thinking, uh, realm. So yeah, it's difficult. I think if you were just isolating those and not looking at the whole, but those are some, hopefully some distinctions that whoever asked that question, maybe that can help them.

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, that's really helpful I think. Um, yeah, because I think that what can be challenging with all of this is just one, I think grasping the language. I think. Whenever I listen to new personality systems, it gives me more empathy for people who are newer to the enneagram and then try to come in and be like, are like, What are you talking

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: So I think grasping the language and I think, um, I'm hoping that it'll really help people too, to go and listen to your podcast because I know that you do kind of talk through them a little bit more and maybe they can get more of that practical understanding of how that shows up for them, um, and how to move forward.

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah. And I just wanna acknowledge anyone who's listening that it, this is totally new cuz we're bouncing from very basic questions to much more advanced type questions. Um, I, I just wanna acknowledge that, it can be a little bit confusing and if you've already like tuned out, hopefully you're still listening, but, uh, you know, with these words like.

Leslie McDaniel: If you, if we work together or if you like, wanna start learning about this, just start with the basics first. Just like we talked about earlier with learn your type and then move out, you know, to beyond that. Like, you can start with the basics, just like you did with the Enneagram and the enneagram type. It is a lot to learn.

Leslie McDaniel: I wanna acknowledge that. And you know, me, I can speak from this level up here that we've just been talking about the functions and extroverted this and inverted that. And I can also talk about what just thinking and feeling is and what that means. So, um, all people are able to learn this. And if you're listening and this is confusing to you, it's totally okay.

Leslie McDaniel: I was exactly the same with the beginning. I was like, What? I don't even understand. Like, what do these words and symbols mean? I don't get it. So just if you're listening and you're Yeah  just know that it's okay and it can take time. Just like learning any new system or any new language.

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, I love that encouragement. I just picked up the um, personality hacker book at my local use bookstore. And I was like, I started reading it and I was like, Okay, I understand what Leslie and I talked about for my type and the rest of this. I'm not there yet. So , I think I love that encouragement.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah, yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: Okay.

Steph Barron Hall: Final question from these, can it change throughout your life?

Leslie McDaniel: Can your type change throughout your life? Is that what you're asking? Yeah, uh, I get asked that a lot. So, um, I'm sure there are different opinions, but if you look at both the enneagram and the 16 type system, the idea, the theory, because these are theories, right? They're not like, we don't have scientific proof, generally speaking, , uh, for these systems.

Leslie McDaniel: But, uh, the theory, the theories are that you are born with your type.Now, if you're looking at core motivation, you're looking at underlying brain wiring, it makes a little more sense. I think what people are really asking sometimes when they ask that question is, how does it allow for change in my life?

Leslie McDaniel: Like, how does it allow me to change as a person? Personality type is different than your personality. I think your personality can include a lot of different factors. You as a person, no matter what your underlying brain wiring or your core motivation can absolutely change through life. That, that basic, that basis of understanding yourself through these lenses.

Leslie McDaniel: Doesn't generally change your brain wiring doesn't generally change. The way it's expressed can absolutely change throughout live and referencing again, the, the main function and, and the, the last function there the more that you work on bringing one down and bringing one up a little bit, um, the more you're going to move away from the stereotypes of your type.

Leslie McDaniel: And the less you will look like that, like stereotypical whatever type. So hopefully that answers that question. And the ideas you are born with it, you can change as a person, but your type doesn't generally change or does not change, I should say more succinctly.

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, I think that's really helpful and I think it's always useful too. You mentioned this at the beginning, to distinguish the actual system itself and like what it's saying about you and your specific type from a test, because yes, test results, test results change. Like depending on how the test was programmed, depending on the day, depending on all these things, results can change, but that doesn't mean your type has changed.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah. Generally what that means is that either you're interpreting the question differently or you're self-reporting something different that's come up in your life. Um, it's really tricky and you're right. Yeah. You know, you could test as like 20 different types, or you could test as the same type and it could both, they could all be wrong you know.

Leslie McDaniel: So testing is one facet, uh, one way to one piece of knowledge to use in your journey or search for your type

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Um, okay, so where can people connect with you? What are you working on? Tell us about all the things you've given us so much of your wisdom around 16 types in the enneagram. Um, so I'd love to hear where people can work with you individually or listen to you and all that good stuff.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah, uh, well online I'm at hellopersonality.com.  On Instagram, it's, ‘Hey, hi, hello personality’ and I know Steph, you have a wonderful typing guide for Enneagram, and if people want a typing guide for the 16 types, I have one of those. Uh, so it's a very basic going through the top four letters, but it will start you on the process of self-observing.

Leslie McDaniel: Um, it's free. And just go to hello personality.com/typing guide and that will let you, uh, download that. You will be on my email list, but you get that free guide to get started. The self-observation piece is the thing I'm most passionate about. Uh, getting your accurate type is really important, but knowing who you are through this system and being able to do something with it, that's what, that's what really matters.

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah,  cool. And so I'll link all of that in the show notes. Final questions. I ask everyone these questions. Um, So tell me about a book that has helped you, refreshed you or shaped you in the last year.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah, so many books, uh, and I've started many that I have not finished too But I would say one that I absolutely finished is a very well known book, but 4,000 Weeks is a book that I, I listen to, I would say, uh, this year. And, you know, for anyone who's read it, you know, it's not a 'how to’, it doesn't tell you how to, I think the subtitle is Time Management for mere mortals or something like that.

Leslie McDaniel: It's a philosophical approach to the idea of time and time management and how we were very skewed in the way that we view it. So I love listening to it, first of all, to the author's voice, but just being able to help me ground myself in this understanding that I really don't have any control over the passage of time.

Leslie McDaniel: And, you know, trying to manage it is futile in a lot of ways. Um, I would say that book and then also, uh, the Atlas of the Heart,by Brene Brown,  just language again, uh, language for your feelings and the nuance that she  provides in understanding what we're feeling and how to communicate it.

Leslie McDaniel: Uh, just brilliant love both of those. And I forgot if you asked something else beyond Books, but

Steph Barron Hall: No, that's great. 4,000 weeks was one of my favorites. I read it last year, I think twice , because I just and just this week I was like, oh, I think I need to pick that up again. because I love this concept of time is finite, so do what matters. Not like get faster and hustle your little butt off so you can respond to more emails.

Steph Barron Hall: It's like, no, what actually matters to you? And recognizing that we are limited and we can only do three to four hours of deep work a day. So what are you gonna do during that time?

Leslie McDaniel: Absolutely. If you go to my website, that's what it says, Life is finite. I can help you focus on what matters most. That's what I'm so, so passionate about. So yeah, this book was right up my alley.

Steph Barron Hall: Yes, absolutely. Okay, final question. What is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Leslie McDaniel: Mm. Gosh, I know you gave me this question ahead of time and I've been thinking like I'm feeling some resistance to the question and I don't know why. I think it's maybe the idea of someone giving it to me and something that maybe is not changing over time, and I love to innovate on things. I would say, I don't know if this is like a piece of advice that someone has given me per se, but the quote advice that I love to live by is to be curious and that curiosity is better than judgment any day.

Leslie McDaniel: So keeping an open mind and of exploration, whether we're talking about ourselves or other people, learning, understanding, just entering the world with a lens of curiosity is so much more beautiful and I think so much more productive in a lot of ways. And you can be, you'll be more wise and we will avoid so many problems if we could just do that with each other and with ourselves.

Leslie McDaniel: Less self-judgment, you know, less self-criticism and so on and so forth. So yeah, I think that's a piece of advice. Again, I don't know where it came from, but that's the thing that I tend to carry with me.

Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. That's really beautiful. And I think it can be helpful, especially if you are the type of person who tends to judge or even judging yourself, you know and getting curious about yourself rather than taking that judgmental perspective. It's so difficult to observe ourselves when we're judgmental toward ourselves.

Leslie McDaniel: Yeah, it's, I think it's difficult to observe ourselves if we can't if we can't have a perspective of self-acceptance and understanding of what we're going to find and what we're going to see, because there can be difficult things that we have to face when we do our self-observation or self-reflection.

Steph Barron Hall: Absolutely. I'm gonna, uh, make that the little, the promo clip for the podcast, I think. Cool. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and answering all of these questions and rolling with it as I throw random questions at you, or things that you are like, well, we could go down a real rabbit trail here,

Steph Barron Hall: So,  I appreciate you,  just showing up and giving us so much of your time and wisdom, and I hope everyone will connect with you on your podcast as well.

Leslie McDaniel: Well, thank you so much for having me and it, I've had a great time. I hope everyone has learned something to take with them through their self observation.

Steph Barron Hall: Thank you.

Leslie McDaniel: You're welcome.