Becoming Your Most Confident Self as an Enneagram 5 with Kelli Rae Thompson

Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in real life. A podcast that will help you go beyond Enneagram  theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Baron Hall, creator of Nine Types Co on Instagram, author of the Enneagram In Love, accredited Enneagram, professional and ennea curious human, just like you.  Be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram in your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now onto the show.

This week, I have a really exciting episode for you in which I talk about Type Five. So I am here today with an Enneagram five and I think you're really going to love this episode. Not only because it's finally a five on the podcast, but because she just has so many great nuggets of wisdom to share and I think you're just going to love today's guest.

One of the things that we talked about a lot during this episode was really understanding the three centers of intelligence with the Enneagram and understanding how to work with all three and kind of bring all three online in order to actually go where we want to go in life. I think in a lot of ways, we don't realize how much the main center of intelligence we're operating from is kind of ruling things and how we need those other two centers in order to move forward in the way that we'd like to. So, if you're not familiar with this concept, I talk about it a lot in my course, which is called Enneagram In Real Life or Enneagram IRL and it's a course that walks you through the entire Enneagram.

Talks about the basics of the tool, how to find your type, what to do with your Enneagram assessment results, all that kind of stuff. Then each type it talks about the type itself plus growth practices for the types and then communication for all nine types and then coaching practices that you can use to really coach yourself, or, you know, have me coach you via video. So all of these things are wrapped up into that course. So if that's an interest, you make sure to check that out.

Uh, Kelli and I are going to be talking today about the intelligence centers in general. So, um, it can be useful to know which one you're in.

So before we get into it, I'll just mention eight, nine, and one are in the body center. Two, three, and four are in the heart center and five, six and seven are in the head center. So that's just like the very basic top level overview, but there's a lot more to know beneath the surface. So today we're going to be talking about a five and her book called Closing The Confidence Gap.

And I'll make sure to link it in the show notes. I really, really enjoyed this book and I would love for you to listen to it or read it as well. Especially if you are a woman in the workforce and you're experiencing things like not getting paid as much as you want or having a hard time negotiating or spreading yourself too thin or, uh, dealing with imposter syndrome. She has really great practical ways to move forward out of those spaces.

So. I would love to introduce you to Kelli Ray Thompson.

Kelli Ray Thompson is a women's leadership coach and speaker who helps women advance to the rooms where decisions are made. 

She has coached and trained hundreds of women to trust themselves, lead with more confidence and create a career they love. Kelli holds an MBA, has served as an adjunct management professor and has more than 10 years of senior leadership experience in financial services and technology organizations.

Her thought leadership has been featured in Forbes, MarketWatch, parents magazine, HuffPost, and working mother.

She is the founder of The Clarity And Confidence Women's Leadership Program and a Stevie award winner for Women In Business Coach Of The Year. 

She is the author of Closing The Confidence Gap, Boost Your Peace, Your Potential, and Your Paycheck, releasing November 1st, 2022. And if you know anything about books or bookselling or anything, pre-orders are really, really helpful for authors. So if you are at all interested in Kelli book, make sure to go ahead and pre-order it. This week, it comes out on November 1st, so you won't have to wait long at all and you'll be able to kind of help Kelli along as she is promoting her book. So I definitely recommend it. Like I said, I read it and I just really loved it. 

So we'll talk a lot today about some of the main points of the book, but we'll also talk a lot about what it's like to be in an enneagram five. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Kelli.

Steph: Well, Kelli, welcome to the podcast. I'm so glad you're here because I got to read your book and we're gonna talk all about it. Um, but welcome.

Kelli: Thank you. I know. I'm excited to talk about it. I'm excited to talk about being an enneagram five. This is not very often I get to talk about this.

Steph: I know. Well, and I think what's so funny is, the reason we kind of got connected is because I wrote something on Instagram about memoir chapters, titles, I think. Um, and you responded and said, well, it's not a memoir, but these are the chapter titles of my actual book. And I was just waiting for a five to say that, of course.  And then we got to talking and I got to read your book early and now we're here.

Kelli: Yes. Yay. I know. I'm so excited to talk about it.

Steph: So tell me a little bit about yourself. A little bit about your story. What are you passionate about?

Kelli: How far back do you want me to go? Should we start at the beginning?

Steph: Where were you born? No, just kidding. Um, no, I, I'm really curious because you talk a lot in your book about, it's called Closing the Confidence Gap. Um, and how did that concept come about? I think this is something especially, we'll talk a little bit more about how you are a five, but specifically this like leadership type of book for women, how did you get to this place where that was what you wrote about?

Kelli: Yeah, a hundred percent. Well, since I was little, I wanted to write a book, as you can probably imagine, as a five. I had a very vast book collection, and so I just always thought, well, I wanna write a book someday. And I remember sitting in my boss's office because I worked in banking at the time. And so, you know, it's better now, but you know, banking, back when I was in banking and the time this conversation happened, it was 2008.

Kelli: Our leadership team was all men. It's mostly men who are in banking and in finance and, you know, I had always wanted to write a book. Um, my role was training and development, so I'd been in training and development, leadership development type roles, you know, in corporate for quite some time, human resources.

Kelli: But I remember sitting in her office and I'm like, oh, but it will never be a leadership book. Because you know, at the time all the leadership books were really written by men, like Good to Great by Jim Collins and Execution by Jack Welch. And so it literally wasn't something I could see myself getting into.

Kelli: And I left banking, I went work for a technology company. Again, technology is not exactly, um, heavy on the females. It's getting better, but right. especially at the time, there's still a lot of males. And you know, one of the things I started to notice about myself, I think, especially as I started to get more curious about what made me tick was that I really love talking to and coaching women because I was used to being one of the only women in the room and I loved it when women would come, would come and talk to me and I was an HR director, so a lot of times women were coming in and talking to me about, “ Kelli, there's this job posted on the, on the job board and I'm really interested in it, but you know, I only meet 12 of the 13 qualifications and I dunno if I should apply?”

Kelli: Maybe I should go back to school. And I saw this lack of confidence in them that honestly, like I could recognize in myself, I'm like, oh Lord, like I've done those things, you know, I've discounted myself like I've, you know, thought that I needed, and this is not gonna surprise you as a five, I thought I needed to know more before I could do anything, that I needed more education, that I needed to be sure.

Kelli: And. You know, I enjoyed coaching them because it was something I definitely saw in myself, you know, But still, I still didn't know whatever, what I was gonna write about. And after I left the technology company, went to go work for an author and a leadership development consulting firm. Was traveling all over the country doing leadership development training, and went off on my own in 2019.

Kelli: And was doing just kind of basic generic leadership coaching, if you will. And you know, when 2020 hit, about 90% of my revenue went away overnight as a lot of consultants and trainers did, because, you know, we're traveling to do things and we're not traveling during covid. And so, you know, when my business took that huge hit in its first year, I really had to get clear.

Kelli: I was like, Okay, if things can't get any worse, then what do I really wanna do?And I was like, I wanna focus on women like I wanna go back and talk to all those women that, you know, I was when I was in corporate America who aren't speaking up, who feel like they need to go get more certifications so they can be more confident, you know, who wanna break into leadership, but maybe like they're the only woman in the room, or they just have all of these like, you know,  I call them expensive thoughts like running through their head about, I'm not qualified, or I'm not ready, or I don't know enough or what will people think?

Kelli: And I was really passionate about that. And so in 2020, I decided to go all in. I only coach women. I couldn't find the women's leadership programming that I thought that women needed in corporate America. Um, so I thought, well, I'll just use my years of training and development experience to create it.

Kelli: And so I created a women's leadership training program called The Clarity and Confidence Women's Leadership Program, and I had corporate women coming through it and we were talking about the things that systemic things happening in organizations today. But then I'm like, I wanna give you tools so that you feel equipped to thrive in spite of these issues.

Kelli: And then I had an aha and I'm like, Oh, I could write a book about this . And so that's how it kind of came up. It really went from always wanting to write a book and being an avid reader to never knowing what I was gonna write about and then just kind of like allowing life to, you know, allow me to decide what to talk about and do I feel ready to write a book? No. Do I feel ready to publish this book? No, but the baby's coming anyways, so here we are.

Steph: Absolutely. And I think that's kind of, a lot of people I would imagine feel that like, Oh, I'm not ready for this, but here we go. You know, it's, it's happening. So I am really curious too, to hear about your journey with the enneagram. How did you find your type and how did you come across the enneagram?

Kelli: Yeah, so I, being in leadership development, employee development, I have never met a personality test I didn't like. So, you know, early in my career we were taking disc, we were taking a Myers Briggs and um, Myers Briggs, I'm an I N T J, you know, and that was really. awakening for me to go, Oh, I'm an introvert and this is what this means.

Kelli: And you know, this is the way I present and the way I make decisions. And so I loved that. I loved Gallup strengthsfinder, and I remember somebody started talking about the Enneagram. And of course me being a five, I was like, Mm, I need to see the data on that. Is that validated? Is that just one of those weird woo woo things?

Kelli: And I'll be honest, like I had a coworker who had her little enneagram up on her thing, and I'm like, I, I just, I, , like, I was a Myers Briggs girl. I'm like, Cuz here's the data, you know? And so, you know, but interestingly enough, I was actually a really huge fan of Richard Rohr, um, and found Richard actually through Oprah because I was kind of going through my own religious, uh, what do they call it? Um, a journey where it's like a lot of the things I thought I believed growing up, I was grown up strictly Catholic, and then I went and did a tour through some evangelical stuff. And when I found Richard, it was so healing to me to find something spiritually that felt aligned without being in prison.

Kelli: And as you know where I'm probably gonna go with this, Richard had this series where he talked about the Enneagram. And so of course since Richard's talking about it, I'm like, well, what is this? You know? And he starts going through the different types and, and I didn't really know what I was, but I remember I went to the enneagram Institute and took the ready and actually on the ready, I came out as a one.

Kelli: And I think my top five types were one, nine, and then five might have been like my third or fourth type. So I could have walked around the world and I read the one and I was like, Okay, I think this kind of makes sense where, you know, which I think a ones and fives can present similarly, you know, in terms of, you know, we like to be right, but for different reasons.

Kelli: Um, and so for a long time I thought I was a one. And I thought I was a one with a strong nine wing because it was the only thing that I found that was close enough to make sense of my type. But honestly, even through mistyping of myself and thinking I was a one for a long time, I still experienced a lot of growth because it really caused me to go inward and go, why are you doing this?

Kelli: Why are you not doing that? Like is what limiting belief is happening inside of you that's keeping you from taking action. And so even though I thought I was a one I found the enneagram really powerful and I was like, You know what? I wanna bring this into my coaching practice because I think that this could be really helpful for, you know, people in their transformational journeys.

Kelli: And, um, so I looked for different places to get certified and I ultimately landed on integrative enneagram. I really love their approach, um, especially if you're working in business and leadership development. I just found a good match with them and I took their assessment. And their assessment is touted to be about 95% you know, accurate, which I can vouch for that. And I got it back and it said I was a five and it said I was a social five. Cause it tells you your subtype. And I remember reading through that report and I just was like, Oh my God. Like who, who, who knows about this? And I was reading it to my husband and I was like, Do I do?

Kelli: Like there was something in me that I knew it was right because it almost felt shameful in a way because they were so accurate and I'm like, oh my God, I've totally done this. And I'm like talking to my husband, I'm like, Do I do this? Do I manage people's access to my calendar and my time? And he is like, Oh yeah.

Kelli: And I'm like, Oh my God. You know? It just explained so much. I remember getting my report back, reading it, and I had to go out for like an hour long walk and I was like, I felt like I had like, my whole identity was like, Oh my God, I thought it was a one. I'm a five and I am so a five. This stuff is so spot on.And honestly, that's when the real transformation started to happen.

Kelli: Only learning, I was a five and just learning how much of my life was driven by my need to conserve energy. Um, how many unconscious things I had done and limits I'd placed on myself and access to me other people, how many people maybe I even upset because I was trying to set up boundaries.

Kelli: Like it was just all so visible. Like it took me a long time to really like, digest all of those things. And as you can imagine, all the feelings came up, which I didn't know what to do with those. And so, yeah, it's been really, really transformational in discovering my type, my real type. Um, and every time I think I'm another type, like sometimes I'm like, well, maybe I'm a three, which if I do take a free test, I score really high in three, but every time I go back I'm like, No, I'm a five.

Kelli: I'm a five. But it has been transformational because it has taught me and made me aware of how often I will get stuck in what I call input. Learning, Learning, learning. Reading, reading, learning, learning. Where I have to ask myself, what have I output today? Like, what have I actually done? Because researching is not doing

Kelli: So that's, that's been, that's the only reason I could have written this book, is because I made a conscious and intentional choice. I'm gonna do something before I feel ready.

Steph: Yes. And, and I love that you started asking that question. Um, are you familiar with the strengths finder, The, so is one of your top strengths input?

Kelli: Yes. Input, realtor, learner, maximizer, and futuristic.

Steph: Okay. Lots of the strategy and like, um, learning ones. So one of my top strengths is input as well, and I have seen it be a strength and I've seen it be like, A weakness too, right?

Steph: Because it's like, I just always think there's more to know. Um, and I'm not a five, but that I think is a bit of a five-ish thing about me, where it's like, I could learn more though , like I could learn more before I go down this, um, you know, go on this path. But I, what's so funny about that is when you were talking about Richard Va, I was like, I wonder if she's a social five because she's doing that thing where it's like, let me find the expert and then sit and learn at their feet basically.

Kelli: Oh, I know when I read that in the, I'm still on page 11, it says, You will find a teacher of the highest order. I was like, I put my head down and I still like when, when I read that about myself, it feels so scathing and yet, It is so true. Like I will totally look for like, um, what's the joke? I wanna go to the therapist, therapist, therapist, therapist, right? I'm gonna go straight to the top. I'm gonna find out and I'm straight to the source. So absolutely a hundred percent.

Steph: So I love that you have really taken this and run with it and really used it for your personal transformation, which I think is really the point of this. And I find that so often, especially if we talk about it like on social media or these different things, it's like, One, I think a lot of us get stuck in input mode.

Steph: We get stuck in like, let me just learn and let me not apply. But it sounds like you've really been able to bridge that gap of being able to say, Okay, let me actually think about this and apply it. And I could see that come across in the way that you talked about some of the things in your book, um, especially about, you know, moving through your career and maybe some of even the feedback that you got about like, Oh, you're too bold or you're, you're not emotional enough or, or those sorts of things.

Kelli: Yes, too direct.

Steph: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm curious if learning your enneagram type actually helped you to see some of those things a little bit differently.

Kelli: It did. So I would say step one, like the Myers-Briggs, was a good half step. Like understanding I was a good, I was an I N T J. I was like, Oh, I'm unemotional, I'm big picture. I'm a thinker and I like to get things done so I could tend to come across directly. So that wasn't a shock to me, but realizing how unemotional I was, was a big thing for me in learning the enneagram. So, um, and I think it, not so much like it wasn't telling me anything I didn't already know as a five, like I knew I was unemotional. Um, but I'll tell you what was really helpful, and this is why I love the Enneagram and it's so expansive. It was helping me understand, but like, I don't have to stay there.

Kelli: I think when I, when I went through the Myers Briggs, I'm an I N T J and even initially when I learned as I'm a five, oh, I'm direct and I'm an unemotional, this is who I am. . But the thing that I love about it the most is it tells me, okay, well here's where you can grow. And the most work I've done is in my four wings.

Kelli: And I think when somebody even just says, hey, you can really dig into your wings to help you be a different and more expansive problem solver and a better communicator. And when I really thought about my coaching practice, I thought, you know what? This is gonna be really important for me to really study and get comfortable about what it feels like to be a four.

Kelli: My sister is a four. Um, and so, you know, sometimes I will just even really just run things by her. She read the book before it came out, but even just talking about some of the messy things, I try to really access a lot of resources. I have the book Bittersweet by Susan Kane sitting in front of me, which if there's a four book that's a enneagram four book, or listening to podcasts like’ We Can Do Hard Things' by Glen and Doyle.

Kelli: I mean, she just, they talk a lot of messy feelings and just exposing myself to more four types of thinking, but really even just pausing and really getting in touch with my emotions, like stopping and pausing and asking myself like, can I name the feelings I'm feeling right now. I never would've done that had I not found the Enneagram and recognized how important it was for me to really use all these resources that I have, um, to just become more expansive and ultimately connect better with people.

Kelli: I'm not saying it's easy, it's not. It's something I have to be really conscious and intentional about, but that's been the most helpful.

Steph: Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you mentioned we can do hard things because I think for me, you know when I am. not really paying attention. I'm not in a great space. I'm just on autopilot. I listen to the podcast, I'm like, okay, it is really not that serious. Like, you're gonna be fine. Like everything is going to be fine.

Steph: Just like move on you know, like talking about some of the deep emotional stuff. And it's really useful for me as well to be like, okay, let's slow down and actually think about that and actually think about the emotional side of this situation. Um, because it can be really invalidating of me not to say nothing of other people's emotions, cuz it's definitely invalidating of other people's emotions, but it's invalidating of my own too, to just dismiss them and that holds us back and we don't even realize it.

Kelli: Yeah, a hundred percent. You know, that's the big thing I've had to come to grips with is that like, you know, as a five, you know, there's a joke that they're just walking around and they're like a brain on a stick. And you know, one of the things the Enneagram teaches you is there's actually three brains. You have three centers of intelligence.

Kelli: And, um, it's easier for me to access my body intelligence. Um, it is hard for me to slow down in my heart, intelligence or my values and my impact on other people and what I really think and how I really feel. But you're right, like learning that intelligence in myself is difficult and it's intentional and it's slow and I don't always like it, but it helps me make better decisions.

Kelli: I think it helps me treat people better. Honestly, I think it helped me write the book. I, I don't think anyone would wanna read a book written by someone that was really direct and really unemotional and didn't connect, and so I really had to like tap into feelings and emotions. And I think when you can be more expansive in that way, it just, I mean, yeah, it helps you connect with other people and I, it just, yeah, it gives you a whole other sense of intelligence that I never had before.

Steph: Yeah. That's so beautiful. Um, what would you say when we think about your book, what is the central question that you're trying to answer with it?

Kelli: Yeah. So the central question of the book actually is, um, what would you do if you had a little more confidence? And what would be the ripple effect from that? You know, the question, you know, it's called closing the confidence gap for a couple reasons. One, the confidence gap actually is a study that's been done by Wharton that took a look at men and women and looked at how they advocated for themselves and, um, as you. So what they did was they had these individuals take a test, and based on how they thought they did on the test, they were supposed to go advocate to this potential employer about their, uh, performance on the test, and ultimately for a job.

Kelli: As you can imagine, the men did have a little easier time advocating for themselves. The women struggled more, but you might also know that the women actually scored a little better on the test. And so there is a confidence gap. And so the central question that the book answers is what are all the things happening systemically in organizations that are keeping women from showing up with more confidence? Things like how is imposter syndrome perpetuated at the senior leadership levels when only men are in the leadership team and women can't see themselves, and people of color can't see themselves in those roles? You know, how is it perpetuated when we give all of the unpaid work and admin tasks and office housework to women?

Kelli: How is that keeping them burdened and overworked? And so I address a lot of those issues, but I also want, you know, women to recognize and we can't change these issues over. I wish we could. So let's talk about some tools that you can use to thrive in your organization in spite of these issues. And so what I'm hoping is, is it answers this question for women and for organization.

Kelli: What would be possible if we had a little more confidence? What could you do? What could be created? And ultimately, the subtitle of the book, I hope to answer like, how could it boost your peace in life? How can it boost your potential and how can it boost your paycheck, both for women? And for organizations, so hopefully as folks read it, they come away with that answer to that, that question.

Steph: Yeah. I love that you focused on, you know, you did talk a lot about like it's an economic issue, um, overall, but also that it's not just, well, this is all terrible and we just should burn it all down. It's like, okay, yeah, sure that could be true, but also what can we do practically on a day to day level?

Steph: Cuz realistically we're not necessarily going to reform everything iIn this moment. So how can we start to do that? And I think the way that you approached it made a lot of sense to me, but I am curious, why was it confident? Why is that the thing that you felt was so important? You know, obviously there's the study, but what helped you to zone in on that specific aspect of leadership?

Kelli: Yeah. Um, honestly, I wrote the book that I needed to read. It's just that simple. I always feel like if there was something that I struggled with the most, it was confidence. And I mean, if we go way back to when I was little, you know, this is not gonna surprise anyone, but like, I was a very five-ish kid um, I made friends because I was smart.

Kelli: People wanted to be friends with me so they could be in my, you know, biology lab and be my partner at work. And I had friends for other reasons too. But I mean, that was just really an identity that, you know, kind of, you know, made me work in life. Right? Like, well, you know what, If I'm not likable, at least I can be.smart.

Kelli: Like I remember thinking that all the time, like, but at least I can be smart. And you know, when I went off to college I still really struggled socially. Like I definitely wasn't somebody who had a ton of friends, you know, any friends I did have, it was because it was affiliated with work. You know, I worked full-time in college, I went to college full-time cause that's again where I found a lot of my identity.

Kelli: And, um, just even struggled in my early twenties. I got married when I was really, really young. It really wasn't the best relationship. Um, and I had my daughter when I was very young. And, you know, honestly that relationship and I, I'm hopefully, you know, speaking to anybody who's been in an unhealthy relationship that can really wreck your confidence and, you know, and your self-esteem.

Kelli: And even though I was doing okay at work, I don't think I was compartmentalizing the two as good as i thought I was because you know what,when you go home every night and there's something eating at your confidence, you're not gonna show up at work the next day and be your most clear, confident, fulfilled, stepping into your power self.

Kelli: Right? As much as I told myself the story that I could, Okay.

Steph: Right.

Kelli: Yeah, and so I struggled with confidence. I struggled to speak up. I remember it was just even hard for me to socialize my ideas with other people because the number one thing that would always go through my mind, especially as an HR and learning and development person Is what if people think this idea is stupid? What if I make this training program and everybody thinks it's stupid? So I really held a lot of things in because I sometimes equated criticism with like, well, people are gonna think that idea is stupid. That was always my inner talk track. And I don't know where it came from cuz it's not like I had a lot of stupid ideas.

Kelli: Right. But you know, at the time I didn't know I was a five. Now looking back, that makes so much sense. And so, you know, when I then was a leader, you know, I was just coaching so many other women on confidence, but I'm like, I'm not even that confident. And I don't think I really, truly understood it until, um, I got divorced and then I was in another relationship for about five years after that and we were gonna get married and I called off the wedding about three months before.

Kelli: Again, that relationship was equally as unhealthy, and it was after I called off that wedding and I spent some time really getting clear on who I was, really like identifying what are my values? because I think I just thought that everybody had the same values as me. It became really clear to me, like, Oh my God.

Kelli: Like I have, I really lack confidence because I've just been like, you know, doing what other people want me to do or what I thought would make me successful or following other people's advice and just conforming to who I thought I needed to be. And so it really was in about 2016 where I really had this awareness of how much of the life and the misery I created for myself was simply because I lacked self-confidence. I lacked self-confidence to know what I stood for. I lacked self confidence to stand up and say, No, I'm not gonna tolerate that behavior. You know, I'm not gonna tolerate you talking to me that way. I lacked self-confidence, which kept me from advocating for myself at work and probably being more social and expanding my ideas.

Kelli: And so I mean that, was my growth journey was really understanding what self-confidence meant and how I could be more confident so that I could live a more healthy life. Find a healthy partner, like raise my daughter to be confident. and you know, then when I went off on my own, I just, I think as a coach, acquired actually so many more tools that I use personally.

Kelli: And so the reason why I chose confidence, I think is just because it was just so foreign and hard for me, and I realized that the lack of confidence caused me so many problems personally and professionally that I simply just need to write the book that I need to read and present all the research and all the tools I've done to kind of, you know, really put myself back in a better place.

Kelli: I am remarried. My husband's amazing. Like it's, it's awesome, but it wasn't without a lot, a lot, a lot of inner work

Steph: Absolutely. And TRCs Well, and I think what I also hear throughout that story is, your head center of intelligence was so well developed. And even maybe the body center too, like, we kind of, uh, or you mentioned that that's easier to, for you to tap into,

Kelli: It was, it wasn't, but yes, we can talk about that. Go ahead.

Steph: Yeah. Um, but I think what I'm really hearing is like, learning to turn on the heart center of intelligence.

Steph: Learning to tap into your values and understand how things were impacting you emotionally. That was really the key to bringing all three centers online and then being able to move forward. It was like you couldn't get by on the head center, which you were able to when you were in school and like early in your career, but then you needed to turn on all three centers.

Kelli: Yeah, the body center was the first one to come online, and even when I work with fives now, that's the first one I like to bring online. And it's because I was in this coaching program and we were doing body work and it all, you'll laugh at this. Um, we had this, this session in class where they were gonna teach us how to read our bodies and how our bodies said yes and no. And we were gonna do this body scan. And so me being a five, I'm like that is a bunch of woohoo junk. I don't wanna do any of that. I'm just gonna skip that class. And so, but then my logical side got in and I was like, well, you know, I paid for it, so I should probably go.

Kelli: Oh my gosh. Like they taught me how to scan my body. They taught me how certain sensations would come alive in my body when it was the wrong thing for me, and how that would be different when it was the right thing for me. And I remember when that, when my body came back online, like I like was teary for weeks because it was almost like, this source of information in me had been so repressed for so long that when it came back online, they were like, oh my God, I'm so glad you're here.

Kelli: We have so much to tell you. And just like everything was just a body sensation. And you know, it was so empowering. And I think one of the reasons why I was so stuck for so long is because in these, you know, relation, very unhealthy relationships my body was telling me no, like, Hey Kelli, slow down. This isn't right.

Kelli: But in my head, I would reason myself out of ever listening to my body. And so bringing my body center back online was totally transformational. And you know, had I not started there, I probably couldn't have gotten where I am today. But just validating for any fives or head types out there that I know that going into your body can feel really weird and really foreign. And it will also be really life changing. so?

Steph: Well, and it's also funny that you say that because I always recommend something having to do with the body for fives, and sometimes I get comments like, Oh, another post saying fives need to go for a walk, or fives need to tap into their body center and I'm like, I don't know what to tell you. Every five I've ever worked with has said this is the most transformational thing.

Kelli: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . It is.

Steph: Yeah. That's so, so helpful. So I think that'll be really useful for everyone to hear too. Um. So I'm really curious, you talk a lot in your book too about limiting beliefs and how those come up for us, and one in particular that I thought was interesting was the limiting belief that you always have to say yes even when you wanna say no.

Steph: I never thought of that as a limiting belief before, but once you framed it that way, that makes so much sense. And it was very clear for me, and I'm curious about these limiting beliefs, Like where do they come from? Why do we have them? Why do we hang on to them? Um, and what do we do with them?.

Kelli: Yeah. You know, I think a lot of these limiting beliefs, like, I'll just give you an example. Like I have to say yes so that people think I'm capable and I saw that a lot in corporate. I, I'm guilty of that in corporate because, you know, as a five, I think that there was like this competence, capability, persona that I had to like, you know, maintain.

Kelli: So I gotta say yes to things, so I look competent and capable. And you know, I don't know where I learned that it could be a message that my parents taught us. And I think, you know, your  um, your parents or your guardians or your family of origin, or it could have even been a teacher or a coach could have said things to you and, you know, very innocuously and it could have been very helpful.

Kelli: But sometimes when we're adults, we kind of still believe these things. And you know, some of the ones that I commonly hear, I have to say yes so that I look capable. I have to say yes to keep people happy. I have to say yes so people know I support them or I have to say yes, so I look perfect. You know, those are the four examples I give in the book.

Kelli: And one of the things that I actually find though, is that the opposite is usually true. So you know, I have to say yes so that I look capable, even though I'm totally burned out and I'm totally exhausted and I have way too much on my plate. But what happens is, when I say yes to too many things, balls start to drop.

Kelli: I'm tired, I'm doing work tired. I'm not doing my best work. And so what actually happens is the more I say yes, the more incapable I look. And so I really encourage folks to really think about what are my values? Am I saying yes to things that are in alignment with my values? You know, what are my unique talents?

Kelli: Am I saying yes to things that are actually in my genius zone and that, you know, really support my best talents, you know, and don't drain me at work. Um, you know, am I saying yes to things that are helping me achieve an ultimate mission or career goal? And I think when we can get more conscious and intentional about what we say yes to, um, it becomes a little easier for folks to say no.

Kelli: You know, of course the enneagram so much power for this cuz I'm sure with my clients and with yours too there's nine reasons why we say yes. When we really wanna say no. And that's why it is so Important that when you're feeling, and this is where you're like, it's so helpful to know, like when you're feeling resentment and you're feeling overwhelmed and you're feeling anxiety and you're feeling these, just these kind of, that, that burning low, low boil anger, like it could be like, Hmm, have I said yes to some things that I really should have said no to?

Kelli: And that can be a really good first clue to go in and be like, Okay, well why am I saying. You know, if you're a two, it might be like, well, you know, because I want people to like me, you know, for me as a five, it's like, well, I wanna look, I wanna look competent. I want people to know that I am independent.

Kelli: Right? And so really just, you know, starting with the Enneagram can be really, really powerful. But then also asking yourself, is it true that if I say yes, people will think I'm capable? Or is it just as true that if I say yes, people will think I'm incapable? Or if I say no, that people will still think I'm capable?

Kelli: And so I think it's just doing a little bit of that mental yoga can kind of help us be a little bit more expansive and conscious and intentional about what we say yes to. So we're giving our best yes and not just a yes to conform and keep someone else.

Steph: Yeah, I think that's such useful framing because as I heard you talk about that topic of like, if I say yes, people will think I'm capable. If I say yes, people will know, think I'm competent, don't think I'm charitable or generous, those sorts of things. I recognize that because I, it was a really good point of reflection for me too because I noticed like, oh my gosh, I'm really burning myself out and I'm not delivering what I want to to my clients, um, when I'm that burned out.

Steph: So saying yes, it's like, yeah, I want the business or whatever it is, but sometimes, and I think it can be a really fine line when you're an entrepreneur, cuz it's like, well I have bills to pay, I have people to pay, I have to do all these different things, right? So it can be tricky to determine the yeses and the no's, but it's even more important I think, to say yes to the right things and no, to things that aren't going to support you when you're in that space.

Steph: Because when we, I really just think that if you say yes to too much, you just end up getting a bad reputation for not delivering.

Kelli: Absolutely. And as a five, my biggest thing that I've noticed is, um, scarcity mindset and energy management. So I will say yes to things because I have struggled with a scarcity mindset my whole life. This is gonna be the last time anybody is ever going to hire me. All the money's gonna run out.

Kelli: Like so I will say yes to things, you know, and that's where my five comes in. And again, being aware of that was transformational to recognize like, no, like Kelli, when is your money ever really um, I mean, it really I've had some tough moments, but it's never really run out, you know. And so even just understanding how the enneagram plays a role in the fear of driving me to say yes, like I think it's just so important because when I say yes to too many things, then I don't have the energy to do all those things and it's not good.

Kelli: So I Amen to all that.

Steph: So a lot of the time when we talk about fives, we talk about those strong boundaries. Um, but I actually have heard from a lot of fives too, where it's like they can have a struggle with, being really depleted and overworking and working too much. And I'm curious how understanding yourself as a five too, not just the scarcity mindset part, but how have you used that to your advantage as well of recognizing your energy or time as a resource that you need to manage?

Kelli: So I would say early on in my career I didn't, because I was probably in the mindset of, um, I just need to escape and be away from home. And so overworking is a safe place for me. So for instance, in my twenties, um, not only did I have a full-time corporate job, I had a two year old, but I was also teaching classes part-time at the university, you know, And so for me, like I wasn't feeling my best, but I also wasn't aware enough to know that the fact that, oh, you're full-time job and the fact that you're a university professor and you're a mom is probably making you feel like crap. Like there, there just wasn't a level of awareness that, oh, maybe it's overworking. That's making me feel not so great.

Kelli: Right. Um, and then I would say too, when I was in leadership development consulting, I was traveling a ton. I would say that's when I had really ahas in terms of boundaries and how traveling and being away from my family and my home base, and I was becoming more aware of my body. That's when I really had aha's like, Ooh, when I get booked to travel, my stomach burns like this is, and I'm having more body ailments.

Kelli: You know? So I think some of that is just a gradual point of awareness. I would say now, and especially during the pandemic, you know, a lot of the things that I joke about with people that I know well are that I thrived during the pandemic. Like, you know, I'm like, everybody's at home, nobody's going anywhere. We're all at home and we wanna hang out. We can just do it on Marco Polo or on Zoom. Like, this is great. Nobody's demanding my time, nobody's demanding my energy..

Kelli: The problem with that though is that I definitely got a little too comfortable with not having any demands on my time or my energy and it can be really hard for a five to stay there because what a five can do is they can overwork at home. They can overwork in their little private corner nook that they've built for themselves. Right. And overworking can not only just be being at my computer, but overworking can be things like sitting on the couch next to my husband and I'm still on my phone researching things for work and going in down rabbit holes.

Kelli: And so it's being really, really mindful of like where is my brain engaging right now? Is my brain busy engaging and going down some rabbit hole on some new thing that I found that's related to something else, right? Cause that's working. And so I have to be really careful with that because I think as a five, that sort of intellectual engagement can be really tricky and you can really kind of go off a deep end and still be working without realizing it, even though you're not out doing all the things.

Kelli: Did that answer your question?

Steph: Yeah.

Steph: That's helpful because I think fives do work so much in their minds, and a lot of fives I know you  maybe they're not sitting at their desk, but they're background processing something that they need to puzzle through, and that makes it really challenging to ever kind of slow that down and, and almost turn it off.

Steph: I feel like sometimes people get confused between type five and type nine, and I would say that's one of the biggest differences. There are a lot of big differences, but one of the biggest ones is that nines can kind of turn their their brain off a little bit and get some space from that, and fives just have the hardest time

Steph: with.

Kelli: Yeah. There's only a few things that are successful in turning my brain off and I have to be really engaged in something body wise, Like I have to be doing an activity. So like one of the things I actually really do love to do, and I think the reason why I love it, is I love cooking because even just like the act of like chopping the vegetables is like a body center thing, right in my body and I'm focusing on what I'm doing and I'm following a recipe. And I'm not overthinking about something that I'm stressing out about on my calendar tomorrow. 

Kelli:But yeah, it is really important though that I'm doing things that get my body engaged. But that is really easier said than done. And again, it is conscious and intentional because you're right, it's, it's easy for me just to sit and research things on my phone all night long and not realize, yeah. you're still working.

Steph: Yeah. And it feels a little fun and maybe a little bit like, I have to know the answer to this.

Kelli: I have to, but I have to. 

Steph: Yeah. I'm really curious too about imposter syndrome. Um, and this is something I've been thinking about a lot lately just because, I mean, I haven't, we all have it in your book. I think you said 70% of people have it.

Steph: I was like only 70. Like everyone I talk to has it. Right. Um, but when I work with leadership teams, like who are these really high level people, maybe executives at large companies. They also have imposter syndrome. Like we think that we get to a, like, we can level up past it, you know, like oh, once I get there, I won't experience that anymore, but everyone's got it.

Steph: You know, why is that and what should we do?

Kelli: Yeah. You know, I think, I wish the stat said because, you know, I think is actually more accurate. 70% of people admit to imposter syndrome,  not so people have it, they admit to it. You know, I think the best way that I can describe it that I've heard that makes sense to me from a psychology or a neuro neuroscience perspective is that our brains are uncomfortable with anything.new. And so, you know, that's the whole amygdala thing, right? Where it's new, it's change. Our ego doesn't like things that are new or changing or unfamiliar territory. And when do people feel imposter syndrome? Well, they tend to feel imposter syndrome when they're doing something new. when they're stretching their comfort zone, when they're speaking up in front of a new audience, when they've been promoted, and they're making decisions at a higher level when they're sitting in meeting rooms where they haven't typically been seen.

Kelli: And I think that that can kind of trigger that. Oh my God, oh my gosh. Like I, I'm gonna be found out that I know nothing. I have imposter syndrome about my book launching. I'm afraid that it's gonna land in everyone's hands and people are gonna. Say the thing that a five never wants to hear is, Well, that was really stupid, You know, so I just wanna validate how normal it is, you know?

Kelli: And, um, so I think it happens just because I have this thing where I say, you know, um, today's goals become tomorrow's imposter syndrome. You know, when we have goals that we're writing in our journal today and our planner, they all sound all fun. But then when you get to 'em and you have to take the big step, you have to speak up and use your voice.

Kelli: You have to go be in a room with new people, with new leaders making really big decisions, chatting on you know, in uncharted waters, of course you're gonna feel uncomfortable. And I think that brings on a lot of imposter feelings. And you know, I even say too, like is that imposter syndrome or is that just healthy? You know, I mean, everyone experiences doubt and we should experience doubt if we're unhealthy because if we don't ever experience doubt, then it probably means we're not doing anything new.

Kelli: I was interviewing Indra Nooyi about a month back. She was a CEO of Pepsi, and I was also talking with an individual named Padmasree Warrior. She's a CEO of Fable, which is an ebook company, but she used to be the CTO of Cisco, and they were both saying these two women who are at the top, you know, Forbes, top CEOs, And they were talking about how they felt it, but like, but you know, Padma said she goes well, of course you should feel it. She's like, if you're not feeling a little bit of doubt, you know a little bit of that discomfort from pushing yourself, 

Kelli: You're probably too comfortable and it's time to make a change. and so it was just so validating to hear these two really smart, accomplished women say, You know what? Yes, we feel doubt. We feel imposter syndrome. It's normal. And if you're not feeling it, you actually might want to take a look that you might need to be pushing yourself a little more than.you are..

Steph: Yeah, And also like pushing yourself to be better. I mean, I think that sometimes imposter syndrome might be telling us what do we need to look at?

Steph: Where do we need to add more skills or more information or more knowledge? Sometimes it's definitely like, okay, where do I need more confidence? Um, but I also think that sometimes it can be that really helpful self inquiry.

Steph: I love how Adam Grant talks about that too. Um, in talking about reframing it as a really positive thing.

Kelli: Mm-hmm. . Absolutely. Yeah. Like I often tell myself, you know, this is what growth feels.This sort of discomfort means I'm stretching my comfort zone, right? Just like going to the gym and being sore after a workout. Like I've stretched myself and this is just what growth feels like.

Steph: Yeah. That's such a good reminder. And I love those sorts of reframes, like, um, the sense of anxiety about, you know, speaking on a stage and like reframing it as. excitement or, or whatever, just to help your body remember, like, Oh, it's, it's gonna be okay. Like, we're not at risk here.

Kelli: Yeah. Well, and going back to the enneagram, that's where I really encourage people to use their centers. So for me, it's starting with my body. Okay, let's take deep breaths. Four counts in, four counts out, right? And let's get out of the amygdala. Let's use our, like our body to just slow down our breathing, right?

Kelli: Like really get outta fight or flight. And I think that's a really good body thing. I also always have ice water with me, just body, just to get me back into my body cuz imposter syndrome in your head. and the other trick that I love to give people to use, um, that really helps you access that heart center is imposter syndrome is really actually pretty self-focused.

Kelli: I'm gonna be found out like, I don't know what they think of me. They're gonna believe that this is all luck. I'm not qualified. Right? That's just a very heady thing to do. So I just really encourage people to stop at their heart center and just say, What are three words that describe how I want this audience to feel?. And all of a sudden now I'm in my heart and I'm thinking about feelings. Oh, I want them to feel empowered. I want 'em to feel seen. I want 'em to feel confident. And now I'm thinking about the audience more than I'm thinking about. My head drama. And so, you know, I'm not saying that always makes it go away. It just kind of pulls all the energy out of my crazy brain and really helps me engage my whole body to recognize like I can be grounded, I can calm myself down, and there's other people here in this audience, right? And how do I want them to feel and how can I connect with them instead of being all up in my head?

Steph: I love that insight and I have found something similar to be true for me as well, which is that when we surround ourselves with people who know a lot more than us all the time, We're a lot more likely to feel it, imposter syndrome, but when we engage in something like mentorship of somebody else, we real realize, Oh, I have so much that I know and I have so much to impart and to give.

Steph: And when we help those people along, then it's like, Oh, like that's actually helping me to build my confidence too.

Kelli: Yeah. That's so good. It's so good. Yes, I know. We, it's,I think they just are so much in our heads and comparing and despairing  and so we're just, we're just all in this together. Nobody has figured it out.

Steph: Nobody does. Um, is there anything else that you feel like you really want people to know about the enneagram or about your work or about how those two things play together?

Kelli: Yeah, I would say what I would maybe want people to know is just to understand how transformational the enneagram is. If you're really looking to, and you talk about this all the time, look beyond the fun memes, you know, the jokes, those sorts of things. But if you really look at the Enneagram and you really can understand just a couple of things, what's the fear that's got me by the tail in life?

Kelli: You know, what motivates me? And if you can get really conscious about how is that impacting my life, my results. You know, am I happy with the way things are going? It could be really transformational for you if you're willing to do the work. And I will say that you know nothing about doing the work feels good.

Kelli: You know, I wrote this book and I still feel a ton of doubt and a ton of fear and a ton of imposter syndrome. But when I sat back and asked myself, I've wanted to write a book since I was a little. And if I was gonna be just an unhealthy five, I would use the excuse. I don't know enough yet. I don't know enough yet. I don't know enough yet. I don't know enough yet.

Kelli: But I thought, well, what would an eight do? Because as a five, I go to eight in health and I have a type eight family. So it helps to see that modeled well. But um, I'm like, What would an eight do? Well, an eight would start writing and they'd be unapologetic about it right?. You know? And so I really started to think about some eights. I love eights, and I thought about eights in my life that I know in my life, and I just kind of like channeled the.what would I do if I were an eight? Like I would do, I would act, I would get out, I would have conversations. I'd start writing. I wouldn't worry about knowing and I would be doing,

Kelli: And so was it comfortable? No. Was it easy? No, but I think if you can really get comfortable with how uncomfortable it feels to really stretch yourself and transform, like, then you can be on the other end of these things going, Oh my gosh, I've always wanted to write a book.

Kelli: And I finally wrote one. Just because I was willing to just, you know, the enneagram was so powerful in it. I was like well, I guess I better act a little more eightish if I actually wanna get this done.

Steph: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know, that, that, um, adage, it's the thought that counts lately. I've just been like, No, it's not. It is not the thought that counts. It's what you do, the impact of what you do that actually counts. And I love that you're really tapping into that eight energy because it's one thing to have a book imagined in your head.

Steph: It's another thing entirely to actually have written it and it to be out in the world and people are reading it. And you're now on press tour, I would guess like doing a little bit of, of going around doing with podcasts, everything. And I'm curious if you have a specific way that you're taking care of yourself as you're doing that.

Kelli: Yes. So everybody's asking me, Oh my gosh, you are promoting a book? I bet you are so exhausted. So I worked for an author who did exhaust herself and had a lot of body ailments and she launched her book and I decided this is a heart centre thing again. Um, that I was gonna let three words guide how I wanted to feel during my book launch, cuz I didn't wanna come out the other end hating myself.

Kelli: And I decided I wanted to feel at ease. I wanted to feel, um, you know, inspiring. Um, but I also wanted it to feel really practical. Like I wanted to do really practical things and not crazy, like off the wall sorts of things you see, you see folks do. And so when I really thought about how do I wanna feel?

Kelli: When I do this, how do I wanna feel at the end of it? That meant I had to say no to some things. So I run a, um, semi-annual, uh, women's leadership program, and I, and it makes good money for me. And I actually paused it this fall, and that was a risky decision to say no to that but I really looked at my book launch timeframe and I said, How do I want to spend my time launching the book?

Kelli: And if I am trying to launch, you know, this women's leadership program, I'm also in a partnership with Fable, which is a rereading company, doing a book club for them, and I'm launching this book, Am I gonna, energetically gonna be able to handle that? Am I gonna feel the way I wanna feel? And if I'm doing all those things, am I actually gonna give my book the love and attention it deserves from all the time that I've put into it?

Kelli: And I was like, I have to say no to some things. And so I said no to my women's leadership um, I kind of shaved off a couple of clients. I took a lower one-to-one client load than I usually take because it was really important to me to have time and energy to properly like, celebrate and launch the book the way it wanted to be launched in a way that wasn't gonna overload my schedule. So I had to say no to a lot of things, trusting that if I put all my time and energy into the book and give it the attention it deserves, then it will all pay off in the end. We should touch base in six months and see how that went for me,

Steph: Yeah. Yeah. We'll, we'll see. And I, I'm so excited for it to be released, cuz like I said, I mean, I don't say that light. I do read a lot of books and I do read a lot of books and I'm like, Okay, that was fine. Um, I did not feel that way about your book. Like I really thought it was really well done, the way that you've woven some of the stories.

Steph: I was like, Oh my gosh, what's gonna happen next? Like, I was definitely gripped by some of the stories and, um, just really practical, like, I think, like you said, II feel like the way that you um, brought that, brought everything together made a lot of sense to me and I got to read the audiobook. I loved that too because I got to listen to you read it, obviously.

Kelli: Yeah. Well, thank you for your kind words. I appreciate it.

Steph: Yeah, of course. Um, okay, so obviously you have your book coming out. Where can people find it and where else can they find you online?

Kelli: Yeah, so you can find the book anywhere books are sold. It's, um, on audiobook, obviously. Um, any e-reader platform or you know, any book platform that you like to buy your books from. And they can find me@kelliraythompson.com. And I'm Kelli with an i r a e. And then I love to hang out on Instagram. Same @kelliraythompson..

Kelli: And then I'm on LinkedIn quite a bit, so you can find me on LinkedIn there as well, and I'd love to hear from you. You can ask me any, I always hear fives are a deep mystery so if you feel like you need to ask me a five question, I can, I can answer it for you.

Steph: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, great. I will link everything in the show notes. My final two questions that I always ask people. One, tell me about a book that has helped you, refreshed you or shaped you in the last year.

Kelli: In the last year, um, you're asking a five who has read a lot of books and I have to pick one, huh. Um, I would say My Life in Full by Indra Nooyi. Um, if I had to guess, she's got a lot of eight energy. That was really inspiring me to how much she just took really bold action. Like I remember reading that book and her stories are amazing, and I just remember being like, Wow, wow. She did that. She went for it. And I just, it, it was, it was so good, So good. So inspiring.

Steph: Okay. I love it. I have not heard of that, so I'm gonna check it out. Okay. Finally, what is a piece of advice that has really stuck with.you?

Kelli: Um, that's a good one. A piece of advice that has really stuck with me, I would say lately, you know, I'll just actually go back to when I was working for the tech company and I had one of the senior leaders come in my office and he handed me a book, and you're gonna laugh, but the book is called The Knowing Doing Gap, . And I think maybe he kind of got a sense that I had a problem there, the knowing doing gap.

Kelli: And I just remember, like one of the things that he said to me, and I'm reflecting on this now, obviously because of, you know, all the things that have happened, but he's like, you know, um, you know, all this learning, all this knowing really doesn't help you out all that much. He's like, you have to remember to translate everything that you know, um, into actually telling people what you're doing. And that, I would say that was the first aha I'd  had that my input strength. Right. and Gallup was kind of a liability, like I had just, that was just mind blowing to me. I was like Oh, I do think and research a lot of things, but how much am I actually telling people and him saying that to me, he's like, knowing is it enough?

Kelli: You really have to think about what you're telling people about what you're doing or what you're actually doing. And I would say just that it really has been a piece of advice that has helped me so much and it's such a good, um, synopsis of the whole shift from five to eight energy as well.

Steph: Absolutely. That is so cool. I love that he was able to tap into that and that, and give you that little piece of advice too, because oh, that's so hard. And like in order to do the things that you actually wanted to do in life, you had to be able to tap into that. So, so cool to see you out here actually doing it.

Steph: Hope you're also, you know, getting your hermit space as well, as your extroverted space. So, um, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I think it'll be a fantastic listen. I think especially Women Fives and especially a social five I think it's really hard for people to grasp what that can actually look like and how that, how those people show up.

Steph: So I love that you're able to just give us such a great example of a five.

Kelli: Oh, thank you so much. And I, I love what you say about women fives, you know, I think women fives and eights, there's some gender norms and expectations that we don't always fall into. And so I think, you know, part of that too is just really honoring that, you know, you can still, you don't have to be all those things for sure.

Steph: Yeah. Absolutely. Well, thank you again.

Kelli: Thank you for having me.

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at Nine Types Co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you.

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Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of Enneagram IRL very soon.

The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of Nine Types Co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron Hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from Critz Collaborations. Thanks to Dr Dream Chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on Spotify.