Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in real life. A podcast that will help you go beyond Enneagram theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Barron Hall, creator of Nine Types Co on Instagram, author of the Enneagram in love, accredited Enneagram, professional, and ennea-curious human, just like you. be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram and your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now onto the show.

Welcome back. I am so glad to be here with you once again. And today I have an episode with a good friend. Kristi Rowles. now, Kristi and I, We met a number of years ago, I would say like three or four years ago. We took the same initial Enneagram certification program. And then we worked together on a really fun project where we helped coaches figure out, okay, now I've got

The Enneagram stuff under my belt. How do I then parlay that information into a business? And so we worked together on that and had a lot of fun doing it. It's so funny now I think Kristi would agree with this. We didn't totally talk about it. But It's so funny because that was a few years ago. And now looking back, I'm like, oh my gosh, I know

20 times more, a hundred times more about building a business and doing something that is Profitable and can Bring in revenue. All those sorts of things. I think, you know, one of the biggest misconceptions in my personal life about even about my business, nine types co, Which people think, oh, it's just an Instagram page or it's just your personal page. Um, but actually it's a business. So Enneagram in real life, the podcast is a part of that Enneagram in real life, My course is a part of that. I have coaching, I do work with teams and, and corporate clients and all that sort of stuff.

And I think a lot of us, you know, We go into doing something we really love whether that's coaching or being a therapist even, or, or even these different spaces, being a podcaster. You know, all these different spaces where we start to do something we really love and that we're passionate about not thinking, oh, this is actually starting

This business and I need to have A plan for how it's going to make money. Um, and so that I think has been a real challenge for a lot of different people. Um, and I know for me, The challenge for my Enneagram business was that it was so different from my first business, which was in floral. So I did wedding and event florals.

Initially, prior to starting nine types co and I think that that shift can be really interesting because you are really going from, you know, a product based business to more of a service based business. Um, and in educational business. It, it's just a really different beast I'd say. So with that said, I

Think what kristi does really well. And we touch on this Some, is she's really, really good at. Cultivating connection with her people. Um, her Instagram followers, her email audience, her.

Coaching clients like her, the people who are in her courses, in her programs. And Kristi does a great job of thinking through all the little details to help connect people with the right resources.

So. In general. I know that there are a lot of different places where you can get an Enneagram coaching certification. Um, and I have A few that I recommend, but something that I really like in any of them that I'll recommend, Is that they have the synchronous coaching component, meaning, There is a part of the program where you are Getting live coached. It's not just like an online course that you click start, click play. And, you know, you coast through. there, there is  that live component where you're meeting with a coach or you're meeting with a group, or you're talking through things. I think that's a really, really crucial part of

Becoming a coach. I think doing a lot of that deep inner work is such an important aspect Of learning, how to coach well, learning how to help your clients get the transformational results that they want, but also doing your own stuff so that you're not carrying your baggage into your coaching Moments with your clients. So. With that said Krisit’s program, which we will talk about a bit. Has that integrated in it and I think that's fantastic. And then she also, like I mentioned,

Has the business side too. So I think that's kind of rare, but she does, you know, those things really well. Um, just making sure that you understand how to coach people, how to, to work with them one on one and how to do the business stuff. So if you wanna check out her program, You can head to the link in my, in the show notes.

And if you love this podcast episode and you want to Go check it out, Please use my link. It's an amazing and free for you way to support. Me to support the podcast, um, to support nine types co and all of the different work that we do, all the content we produce. Because it's an affiliate link, which means that you, you don't pay anything extra, but I just get a small percentage.

Of what you end up paying if you end up joining the program. So it's great for you. Great for me. And then. Also, I Get to support my friend Kristi. And. This is part of my passion behind this podcast overall. Is sharing the stories of other people, Coaches, therapists, business owners, all these different people that I get to meet and connecting you with the resources that you want and need to make you successful and also to support what they're doing. So I love.

When people come on, the podcast that have really aligned values with my own. And kristi definitely fits that. So, let me tell you a little bit more about Kristi Rowles.

So Kristi rolls is a mental health therapist turned Enneagram coach. She runs full and free Enneagram co and launched an Enneagram university in 2020, where she trains people and Enneagram loving humans. To be the most competent and confident coaches on the market.

Kristi is known for teaching the Enneagram in a way that is accessible, practical, fun, and compassion driven. She and her partner, Nick called central Florida home. But they love traveling and just wrapped up a three month trip to central America. She's gotta thing for chocolate, bright colors and fun earrings. And let me tell you.

Anytime you see Kristi, she is. Like 85% chance she's wearing super fun earrings. I think during our interview, she was wearing some fun sunflower earrings or something like that. Like she just always has fun earrings on. So definitely go follow her on Instagram. Her handle is full and free Enneagram 2.0

And also make sure you check out her website, Enneagramuniversity.com.

Check her out. All those links will be in the show notes. But let's go ahead and jump right into the show today. And don't forget if you do wanna become an Ingram coach through Kristi’s program. I have a link for you in the show notes, and I really, really hope you love it. Uh, um, and that it's really transformational for you. So.

A very brief note before we get into this interview. Something strange happened with the audio. In this interview, there were little moments missing. And some weird audio effects happening.

We are trying to work it out in terms of like how we're going to record in the future to make sure this doesn't happen again. However, we did the best we could with what we had. And there are some weird moments happening. There are some weird things going on. So. Just FYI. We are aware we are working on it. We're trying to make it. The best possible podcast we can. At this juncture. But sometimes these things happen. So I hope you will overlook these little errors, and really enjoy This episode.

Without further I do. Let's hear from Kristi Rowles.

Steph: Okay, well, Kristi welcome. I'm so glad you're here.

Kristi: thank you. I'm excited to see you.

Steph: Yeah, it, I know it's been a while.

Kristi: I know it's crazy because like the Enneagram space in general feels when you're starting out so big, but then you start to make so many friends. It's like, Hi, I've missed you, you know, so I'm glad to be with you again.

Steph: Yeah, this is great. And I am so excited to get a chance to talk about some of the things that you've been up to, um, in your business that I've been kind of keeping my eye on. So that's really cool. Um, but before we begin, I would love to hear a little about you and your experience of the Enneagram. Like how did you learn about the Enneagram and then how do you kind of like, how did you type yourself, all that kind of stuff? Cause I know that there's some good backstory there.

Kristi: Yeah, totally. So, um, I was, um, in my own therapy as the client for, it had been probably about two and a half years. And, um, we had done a lot of deep stuff like Talked about a lot, healed, a lot, done a lot of work. And, um, my therapist at the time, she said, well, I think that we can start talking about transitioning out.

Kristi: Like, I don't know that you need to keep coming. And, um, I immediately was like, felt my whole body respond

Steph: Yeah.

Kristi: was like, Nope, I don't like that idea. Um, and I remember saying to. Listen, I came to you because I have anxiety. And if I can't get rid of all of it,I must not be done. so graciously, She was like, okay, why don't we look into the Enneagram a bit?

Steph: Okay.

Kristi: and it, it had been new to her at that point, too. So. She shared it with me. And I wound up listening to a podcast about kind of an overview of all the types on one of my commutes and, you know, like usual, because we all have different parts from different types in us. I was connecting with like, okay.

Kristi: Yeah, that sounds kind of like me. I can be like that sometimes that, um, and then when they got to the type six, I was like, oh my gosh, I was totally in the car by myself. But I, I remember Kind of like a flashback. I can look back and see myself looking around the car just to be sure no one else was in there because I think I felt really, really naked and exposed and immediately felt like this combination. On one hand, I felt so relieved and like, oh my gosh, there's words for what it's like to be me. I didn't realize this was unique. I thought everyone's brains worked like this. And then on the other hand, felt like an immediate sense of dread because it felt like a life sentence to my anxiety.

Kristi: and part of that was, um, there wasn't a ton else shared about like the comprehensive view of a type six outside of the anxiety piece. Um, and then part of it was like, oh my gosh, I've been running from this forever. And it seems like I'm never gonna be able to outrun it. So there was like a, a several weeks where I was like, Hate this tool not using it don't care.

Kristi: Um, and then, you know, just like, again, people in my life who had already known any agree gently coming in and saying, let's talk about the full picture of the type six. And let's talk about how you can learn to have a relationship with your anxiety versus running from it, your entire life, um, and kind of hating this part of yourself.

Kristi: So it led me to a place of realizing, okay, it's not that I. um, you know, not that the, any room revealed things about myself that I hated. It was more of me looking at myself in a mirror and having to come to terms with parts of myself that I was trying to Suppress or subconsciously even shame away. So it was a process

Steph: Yeah, well, and I think what I hear in that too, is also understanding instead of like, this is something I need to run away from or escape from. It's like, oh, this is actually a part of me.

Kristi: mm-hmm

Steph: So looking in the mirror in that sense,

Kristi: Yeah. And, and also from a compassionate, gracious standpoint to think when I was young, I needed anxiety to survive growing up in my family system, in my environment, I needed to have this really like hyper alert part of myself that kept me safe. And so not shaming it, but understanding why it was there and what she had to teach me.

Kristi: And then how can she, and I start to have this relationship where I say, okay, I hear you. Thanks for letting me know that that's something to be concerned about. And also, how do I not let you. control me and I, I even, you know, the therapist I'm working with now, we talk about how, um, even learning to trust her and have this relationship of, um, realizing that she doesn't actually want to be anxious all the time.

Kristi: Like for me, she lives in my tummy like that. I just feel like that's where anxiety lives for me. And it's, there's been moments where I've realized I've checked in with her or listened to her. And then I feel like she just moves on. it's like, okay, thanks for hearing me. Now. I can like go play or go back to sleep or, you know, something like that where I just never thought that that's how it could be.

Kristi: So it's been like a hard and beautiful process.

Steph: Yeah. I'm curious, do you do like IFS therapy?

Kristi: Yeah. Sometime internal family systems. Yeah. Mm.

Steph: Okay. I just, the way that you're talking about it.

Steph: it’sinteresting to me. 

Kristi: Yeah. I love parts work.

Steph: yeah. Mm-hmm yes, totally. It's really life changing and. I mean, I always want people to like, you know, go grab no bad parts, which is a book that I read and loved last year, but I also have to like, remind myself, okay, Stephanie, you know, not everyone wants to do this.Not everyone has like a therapist in their life that can support this work. Like you need to make sure that you're not just pushing people into that, but yes, truly lifechanging

Kristi: Yeah.

Steph: and I Can appreciate your perspective shift of like, instead of this i like a, maybe even the core part of my identity or like who I am as a person.It's it is a part, but it's not your entire identity.

Kristi: Yeah. I, I think like that's one thing that I really love about the Enneagram tool as a whole, because. So I've mentioned, I've been in therapy a few times as a client. I also am trained as a mental health therapist myself. So for me, looking back and realizing how personality develops and how we all hold these different defenses and strategies and habits and way of brain functioning that we all interpret the world and how we process it and then decide how we're gonna respond back to it.

Kristi: It's like, okay. That, that is my learned defensive of self of how to keep myself safe in the world. And there's nothing wrong or bad about it. It just is. So can I learn about those systems or those approaches and, uh, start to work with them rather than it being so subconscious. And I know you love to, like the whole point of the Enneagram in a lot of ways is waking up to those parts

Kristi: Because if they're asleep, we have no option, but to do things the way that we've been doing them. But once we see them, then we have the power to say, wow, is that showing up how I want it to, does that feel like the most supportive approach or the best approach that, you know, honors what I want in life? Everything from like my professional development to my relationships, to my own existence with myself.

Steph: Yeah. Yeah. And I think too just what I'm, what I'm hearing too is is this thing that I always talk about, which is, you know, those things that we've had, the habits, whatever, they're not like bad in the sense that we need to shun them or feel shame for them. They are survival strategies that we've absolutely needed. And when we're ready to change them, then. The Enneagram is a tool that helps us get space from them. So we have the opportunity to observe and like look and decide instead of, you know, like you're saying, being sostuck in those subconscious patterns.

Steph: I, and I think what's so interesting about the process that you've been going through is, you know, Even a few years ago when we, when we were working together more. So we talked a lot about working with clients one on one. Um, and then, you know, of course I've worked more with like corporate and, and, you know, you've worked a lot with individuals, obviously. There's like, we all work with everybody. Right. But, yeah, but like going through this process of, of seeing this real need of like, people are just being like, okay, check mark.

Steph: I got the certification. Now I'm thrown into this pool and it's actually something that I say a lot. I have a lot of issues with it. People all the time are like, you know, how do I get the quickest certification possible? And, and I really wanna encourage people. That's not what we're about. Right.

Steph: Um, but how have you kind of taken that, that understanding that knowledge as you now are, are coaching and, and teaching other people how to coach using the Enneagram?

Kristi: Yeah.

Kristi: I mean, while there's so many layers, right. One of the, probably one of the things that people, students at Enneagram university get sick of hearing me say is we never ask our clients to do work, that we haven't done ourselves.

Kristi: Like this idea of we are all stepping into this work because we love people and we wanna help people. And while that other focused approach is really beautiful. Sometimes It's at the cost of our own self-reflection or our own work. And so even yesterday I was processing, okay, how does my type six-ness show up in the way that I run this business? And how is it serving me in a helpful way and hurting me in a harmful or frustrating way?

Kristi: So being able to like constantly say yes, I'm learning about the Enneagram to serve clients, to help them to help teams or couples or individuals or whoever they're serving. And also I'm a human being. So how do I not forget myself in the process? And kind of like what you just shared, like you said, I work with teams, but that team is full of individual people.

Kristi: So how do we hold that as coaches too, when I go into a group and I've got 20 people sitting in front of me, or if I'm doing a speaking event with hundreds of people in front of me, how do I remember that, Um, yes, There's things that I can teach generally true for all types, but there's so much Tiny little, uh, differences or, um, like uniqueness to even how each type shows up.

Kristi: No threes- two threes are not the same. No two sevens are the same for a variety of reasons. And some we have Enneagram language for, and some it's just like, yeah. Life experiences make us different. So I think remembering in all the work we do one we're a person too And how do we be mindful of our own self showing up and continuing to do that own internal introspective work so that we can be more effective in the work that we do with clients.

Kristi: Um, and then also remembering that every time we speak to someone, they are, oh, just like a big ball of lots of layers.  you know, we're talking any sort of identities that they hold from gender to sexual orientation, to ethnicity and race, to age, to all sorts of roles that they hold in life. Um, so just being mindful that like the Enneagram is so helpful in giving us some starting language and also there's so much more, so always remembering to stay curious about both ourselves And the clients that we work with. curiosity wins every single time.

Steph: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's such a. Call out too, because I think that's so important to think about the social identifiers that we all carry, whether we recognize it or not. And you know, on this podcast I had, um, Jessica Dixon on who talks about coaching and she talks a lot about these different things and I have found that type of work so crucial, especially, you know, for myself and, and going inward and, and like looking at those things in myself and identifying, but also in working with my clients who come from different backgrounds who maybe their experience, isn't something that neatly fits into an Enneagram box.

Steph: And how do I see the layers differently? Like kind of expanding them so that I can bring, you know, the most helpful tools possible to that. So,Yeah,I think that's such an important aspect of even like describing the types, you know,

Kristi: totally. Yes. I'm actually in a group of Jessica right now, she's leading a group called expanding the Enneagram and I joined To that. And I'm really appreciating specifically because you know, there's different identities that I hold that I feel like I can relate to. Um, for example one, you and I both know, I used to be pretty active in that Christian faith and no longer, but I've recently have worked with two clients who were convinced that they were type ones when they came into session.

Kristi: And by the end of session, we realized neither of them was a type one. And as we processed that, we talked about how the different Their experiences. And for them, the Christian community, shaped the kind of black and whiteness in terms of what's good and bad, right and wrong. And that, you know, I said to one of them, “type one’s do not own the market on ethics and morals.”

Kristi: You know, we all have those and, um, but I'm so grateful that is an identity I'm familiar with that I could help kind of pull those things apart. Um, but one of the things that Jessica does too, is, you know, talking about like, no matter how much I learn about all the types, I do not know what it's like to be a black person in the United States of America.

Kristi: So when I'm working with a client who is not white, even if they are white and they look like me on the outside, We have such different lived experiences, you know, from birth order to family, you know, family of origin, uh, dynamics to all sorts of things. So yeah, just being mindful that we all hold so many different identities and that while we like to categorize ourselves into like, I'm this type, here's what I know about this type.

Kristi: All these types are like this that's helpful when you're learning something like our brains are wired to do that. And also an advanced, An engagement with Enneagram is kind of doing that less and less, like, okay. I have a general idea about what's important to you cuz you're a type five, but what about all the other things that I don't know about you specifically?

Steph: Yeah.

Kristi: It's like the richest use I feel like of human experiences.

Steph: Totally agree with that. Um, yeah. And I'm curious, and I wanna kind of touch on something that you mentioned earlier, which is how your six-ness kind of shows up in the way that you operate, the way that you run your business. And I'm so curious about this, because I hear from a lot of people who are sixes, who want to kind of go into business and they find themselves creating. Almost a committee, right. Um, with just, you know, a lot of the six, you know, tendency and, and, or they're trying to create all these structures and processes that will really help support them. So they can kind of feel that sense of security that they have left from leaving a corporate job. And I'm curious how you have navigated that and how your type shows up in the way that you operate in your business.

Kristi: Yeah, well, I'm kind of giggling a little because I'm like, how did I navigate it? Begrudgingly.

Steph: Ooh, Uhhuh.

Kristi: um, because you know, there are, there was like a massive, massive learning curve for me when I first started my business, especially as a six, right? Like some of the things that came up, I noticed most, I don't have a team to bounce ideas off.

Kristi: My team was everything to me. And I don't think I thought about that because I had always had people I was working with. If I got stuck on a decision or I wasn't sure how to best respond, I would just pitch it out. We'd brainstorm together. And that's what I would do. And, um, I don't have that anymore. So that was a really difficult challenge that I was not prepared for.

Kristi: Um, another thing then in general is like making decisions. So at what point do I just decide something, you know, there's this like second guessing tendency to obviously overthink until I'm blue in the face, you know, or, uh, just paralyzed from inaction. And, um, so being able to ask myself, there's been a few questions that have been most helpful.

Kristi: One of the most helpful is so simple. It's will this work? like, does this just get the job done? . So for example, if I'm creating a PDF or I'm building a workshop or I'm, I can think and think and think, and because I have all these different, you know, like ideas in my head, I could convince myself to change anything, to, to like change the entire presentation within an hour of when I start the talk or something.

Kristi: And so, at what point do I just say my own self-affection needs priority right now? And so I can be affectionate towards myself when I say, yep. That'll do. so that's one simple thing that has, um, helped a lot with the second guessing. the team part, I noticed myself. kind of like building a community online.

Kristi: It's one reason that you and I connected too, cuz I'm like Steph let's work together. You know, this would be fun. And um, you know, other friends as well. So I have regular people who I Voxer that some of them I've met in person and some I haven't, um, that we chat, you know, on Instagram sometimes and message back and forth.

Kristi: And actually just recently I was processing, I have a business coach who loves email. It's fine. Like, I just don't love email. And I've been really thinking about why, because strategically in my head, the, you know, ROI on email is like significantly high among the digital industry. So like I know that. And yet I just don't enjoy it. And so I've been processing what don't I enjoy about it. And I think it's, there's not the engagement. , there's not the feedback, which helps me kind of process. And I know this about myself. When I speak at events, I don't like usually doing virtual events.

Kristi: I like to see the people's faces because reading their faces gives me feedback in my head, If I'm on the right track. like, are they following, do I need to shift up how I'm saying things? Do they like this avenue? Should I go deeper into it? It's this constantly like looking outside of myself for that guidance, whether it's direct or indirect feedback that helps me know what I'm doing and if it's good and it's like classic dependent stance.

Kristi: So even saying it out loud, I'm like, oh, Can't it just is what it is at this point. Um, so, you know, even things like that. And I realize that one reason I really like Instagram is because I have that people connection. I'm I talk with people in my direct messages all the time, and it's so fun to me. It doesn't feel like work and that's so beautiful.

Kristi: And like, if I'm not on for a couple days, I'm like, ah, I miss my community. so even that is a way where I'm like, okay, strategically, maybe email marketing would produce more for my business. Right. And I have that head part of me that's like, do what's supposed strategic, but then I have this heart part of me.

Kristi: That's like, what feels like life? What feels good? And, um, that's where social media comes in for me. So even noticing in that way, allowing myself to maybe not do what the best thing is, um, statistically, but to allow my heart to kind of lead some of that too is different and feels good.

Steph: Yeah. Well, and I think that's one of the things that's really interesting about six is, is that you are in the head triad, but six is a lot of the time Not always, but a lot of the time seem very heart forward. Very heart led, looking for that connection community. Yeah.

Kristi: Yeah. Um, So, I mean, of course, sixes along with eights and fours are in the emotional reactivity triad. So there's like a lot of feelings. So this is one reason why, when I first kind of started reading about the six, I was like, ah, I don't know. Like I know that I have a lot of feelings.

Kristi: Like I feel intensely. And now, you know, a couple years down the road, I'm realizing, ok one sixes along with fours and eights have a lot of feelings and we externalize them a lot. Um, but then I'm also dominant in the sexual or one-to-one instinct. So I just do have more energy, passion, intensity than other sixes.

Kristi: And so, yeah, I think for my, for speaking, from my own experience and I'm actually, I'm really curious if other sixes would agree with this, but my head is always going And so while I want to be most strategic and I, I think I'm led by my head, my heart is definitely driving, but the difference is whenever I get hung up on decisions, I almost always go with my head.

Kristi: And I there's like this lack of trust with my heart, even though I feel a lot, it doesn't logically make the most sense or, you know, I use data over my feelings sometimes. So that even like when I. Using social media for me is a hard thing, Choosing my heart over my head has been hard and I doubt it all the time, but it feels healthy. but yeah, that's the head and the heart is very interesting. I feel like for sixes.

Steph: Yeah, definitely. And I think I see it a lot with, um, self-preservation sixes.

Steph: Being, you know, seeming very like externally, you know, much more, more heart centered and then sexual sexes as well. Um, I think social sexes tend to have more of that sense of like, you know, the head being right, like front and center, I guess. I don't know how else to say that in a different way, but like being very more mental, um, in terms of how they present, but that makes a lot of sense that when it comes down to it, The thing that is going to guide your decision is your mental faculties.

Kristi: Yeah. And even the thing that's gonna keep me trapped in them. Like, because I could argue any point in my head, I could convince myself of literally anything. So I think that's why it's so important for sixes to get centered and have like some sort of grounding or meditation or prayer practice. That's like when I adjust him with myself, what comes up in my body, like what rises up and that's my truth. You know, bein able to be intuitively driven by my gut and my heart, not just my over-functioning brain is a more whole, like three centered approach, like head, heart, and body to my own development.But it's, it's, a battle between my intuition and my head.

Steph: yes. That, that makes a lot of sense to me.Um, well, I, I also have been wanting to ask you about this piece because I think a lot of sixes might also find this really interesting. um, and, and maybe this is part of the sexual six thing where it's like, you see fear and move toward it and say, okay, I'm not gonna, like, basically I'm gonna scare it off a little bit. Um, and in depends, I, I had a one sexual six and a typing interview who thought, um, they were an eight and when I was like, oh, you're not gonna like this, but you know, what's, the evidence is really pointing to sexual six and here's why, and They're like F you basically like, and I, I was like, I I'll take it.

Steph: That's fine. That's fine. You can, you can, you know, feel however you need to feel about it. Um, but it, it is that sense of, you know, nothing can scare me until you start realizing like, oh, actually this anxiety is popping up and you know, obviously you're dealing with it in your own way. That's, that's really developing a supportive and healthy practice for you. But I'm really curious to hear about your recent adventures and, and travels. And how did that come about where you went and, um, what that was like for you and you know, your husband and everything curious.

Kristi: Yeah. Okay. Well, first of all, it's funny about the, the sexual sex fear piece, because I think the part that counterphobic or sexual Dominant sixes is don't like about it, including myself. Is that tendency to beef up and kind of intimidate the scary thing away is so subconscious that it's almost like we've even convinced ourselves that we're that tough.

Kristi: You know, like we're that tough. Nothing can really hurt us. Um, and the reality is we're actually very scared inside and that feels very uncomfortable to come to terms with, because. Big part of us that tends to like, look more aggressive, look more eight-ish it's like, it's our guard. And so now if I realize that that's kind of like a faux sense of security and protectiveness, I then have to sit with the reality that I'm actually scared and I don't know what to do.

Kristi: So a hundred percent get your client like, uh, I wish it wasn't true. so, yeah, so anyway, that's that. So in terms of travels, um, so my partner, Nick and I, we just lived, uh, moved to, uh, Guatemala for three months. And part of it was like so magical. It, I, I genuinely feel like, and this is probably a whole nother podcast for another day.

Kristi: uh, it was the first time in my entire life that I felt genuine happiness. 

Steph: wow.

Kristi: I know.  And when I was processing this with my therapist and there's like a billion things, I think about why and how and all that. But I, one of the first mornings we got there, we walked to a coffee shop and Nick was downstairs and I was up top, like there's an upper deck and you could see the volcanoes on one side and the mountains on the other side.

Kristi: And there's like these beautiful plants, like vibrant pink. And, um, I was up there totally by myself and blue skies and I was like feeling a lot of feelings since we had arrived. And I wasn't sure what that feeling was. And then as I was up there by myself, it was like the first time I'd had enough quiet space to myself where it was like, oh, this is happiness.

Kristi: It was so magical. And yeah, a lot, a lot more into that, but. Um, yeah, it was an amazing experience. We wanted to, um, go somewhere and not just have like 10 days. Uh, we went to India, we had friends who got married in India, like a traditional Indian wedding in India and The fall was so cool. Um, and Indian weddings are like six, seven day parties.

Kristi: Like it was so cool. So we did that. Um, and you know, by the time we finished all the festivities, it was like, We just learned how to navigate India and how to get around and how everything works here. And now it's time to go home. And so we really wanted to go somewhere that felt like home, that we were living there and I've always loved central America. I love the vibrancy. I love the food. I love the culture. And, um, you know, living in Florida, like there's a lot of Spanish and Mexican culture here. And So it just felt like we could be at home there. Um, and I felt at home from the day we arrived and I like. just the other day had like a, a little tearful moment of we're home. We're here in Florida and I'm not mad about being here, but there's a part of myself that's there and it's beautiful and a little sad

Steph: Yeah. So you were there for three months, you said.

Kristi: three months. Yeah. We just really wanted to like live, you know, experience the culture and be a part and speak the language. Yeah, it was awesome.

Steph: Yeah. Was there any part of you that was like, oh, we can't do this. This is too like scary, you know, we're going outside the comfort zone.

Kristi: I feel like that's almost every day of my whole life.

Steph: Haha right.

Kristi: I actually was just saying to Nick the other day, it's like, we live such a weird life. Like, I don't know how I do it, to be honest. Um, because everything is nontraditional. He and I both work from home. We live in a tiny studio apartment. We have a few Airbnb, so we have a building with, um, six apartments and five are Airbnbs.

Kristi: Um, and one is we live in, but they're all studios. So it's like 300 square foot, tiny space congested, but we're two blocks from the beach in Florida. And, you know, we work for ourselves. That's what allows us to go three months in a different country. And, um, yeah, so I spend a lot of my days being like, oh my God, what am I doing?

Kristi: what is this life? This feels really unsafe in the sense of completely unpredictable. and there are, there are moments where I'm like, oh my gosh. maybe this was all a terrible idea. Maybe I should just go back and work full time for someone else. At least then I'll know what to expect. I know that I can be good at my job, which is, you know, different than being an entrepreneur where you're constantly learning new things. Um, building a team, figuring out pay scales, deciding like what programs to take everything from figuring out the tech to making a decision on graphics And branding, To building teaching workshops on the Enneagram to training new coaches and, yeah, it's a lot

Steph: Yeah. And, and like the second you get good at something it's like, okay, and now it's all gonna pivot.

Kristi: I know. Why, why is it like that stuff?

Steph: It just, it's just the way that it is. And yeah. And also.

Kristi: Yeah.

Steph: You know, asking those questions, cuz it does sound like some of the things that you really value the predictability, the stability, the team aspect. And so then it takes so much courage. Like every day. It sounds like to navigate that on your own. And obviously, well, I guess maybe I just wanna ask you, like, what is the thing that keeps you there? Like, is it the fact that you just made up your mind and decided, or What's the most important thing to you?

Kristi: that's a really good question. I, so Brene brown has a book called Braving the wilderness. Have you read that one or kind of know the general idea? Um, so in part of it, she talks about how, once you step into the wilderness, you can't UN step into the wilderness. Like once you know, things and your eyes are open to different. Being, it's almost impossible to go back because now, you know, different things, you can't unknow them.

Kristi: And so, you know, I've fallen in love with a lot of parts of this life that I think if I went back to a steady job, yes, I would gain the steadiness. I would gain the stability. I would gain the predictability. I would gain the knowing that I'm good at my job and knocking out of the park every day, you know?

Kristi: Like now, I'm like, oh, what am I doing every day? I have no idea. I have to wake up and tell myself how to spend my time and what project is most important. And, um, but there's so many things I've come to love about this life too. The freedom, the, the freedom to play, like, you know, I'd kind of mentioned anxiety after I listen to her, she's just like, okay, great.

Kristi: Now I can go play. I feel like I'm getting in touch with that inner child and myself that it was never safe enough when I was young to let out. And so now I feel like I'm, you know, I'm a grown adult and yet I'm learning how to play because I missed out on so much of that when I was younger and all of that feels really healing. So is it uncomfortable? 100%? Am I sometimes like, oh, I should just throw it all away and go back, um, to a different. Sometimes. Um, but most of the time when that, when those things are coming up, it is just a moment where I need to sit with my anxiety and say, let's talk about what's going on. Let's talk about what you're scared of. Let's talk about what is exhausting you and how can we support you to be heard and also remind you that it's all. it's all. Okay. it's been Okay. it's gonna be okay. You have what it takes. So it's like a little therapy session with me, myself and anxiety. when those thoughts come up.

Steph: Yeah. Yeah. That makes, that makes a lot of sense to me. What do you think You would wanna tell You know, even your yourself a few years ago about navigating this type of life. And I'm just thinking about all the people who ask me who are sixes, who are like, I don't know what to do. Um, what do you want them to know?

Kristi: You know, it's so much easier when I say it in words and when I have to live it out. But I feel like I would want a couple years ago me to know I am worthy of being trusted. You know, part of being a type six, we are present moment focused. And so we forget about hopefulness in the future and like all the good things that can be.

Kristi: And we forget about the past and how many painful, difficult things we've overcome and worked through. And we're just so obsessively focused on the mountain before us and like, oh my gosh, how, how do I get past this? And so I wish I would tell her to like, look up and look. like, look what your future can be.

Kristi: What if yes. What if it doesn't work out? But what if it does work out? Like you can worst case scenario. So can I also be kind enough to myself to best case scenario? Like what if it's a best case scenario? What does that look like? And then realizing that like, I have the power to make either of those happen. You know, life has things, a lot of nothing is Fully in our control per se. But, um, I feel like the pandemic taught us that if anything, but we can trust that just as likely as bad things are to come. So we're beautiful things. Um, and then to also look back and say, yeah, I felt so insecure then too. I felt so scared then too.

Kristi: And look what happened. like, I'm still here. I know what to do. Um, when I need support and whether that's asking for help or getting on anxiety meds that I started again last year, after being off for years, you know, being able to be kind and patient with myself, um, calling up a friend or just saying I'm not working for five days because I don't know what's going on, but like my system is not regulated and no matter what I do, I cannot feel grounded.

Kristi: so it doesn't exist yet. Like I'm a human first. Um, and I realize there's like inherent privilege in me just saying that to be able to not work for a week, it was not like that when I first started my business, um, thankfully now I'm making steady enough revenue to be able to like take a nap and not shame myself for it. Um, so there's definitely privilege in that too, that I'm realizing after I said it out loud, but, yeah. Being able to trust what has been and what could be. I think I would want her to know that.

Steph: Yeah. Yeah. I think that will be really helpful. And I think the, um, that like being kind enough to yourself to, to best case scenario too.

Kristi: mm-hmm

Steph: I mean, I think that's helpful for a lot of us, but. Um, I think, especially with, with sixes, you know, thinking about,

Steph: okay, you're so good at seeing the possibilities and like intuiting different things. And what if you are maybe not even paying any attention to this entire half of what's possible.

Kristi: Oh my gosh. Totally. And it's also like what a rip off you know, like we deserve to see the actual possibilities and seeing worst case scenario is totally one sided. And so being able, you know, sometimes I ask myself, is that what I'm feeling or is that what I'm fearing? Cuz they're not the same. So like I'm scared of that thing, but is that likely to happen or, you know, like, am I using my brain right now or is anxiety kind of running the show? There's a space for all of them but being able to differentiate is so important and helpful

Steph: yeah. Different reactions.

Kristi: yep.

Steph: yeah. Well, I'm really curious cuz we've, we've touched on this a little bit. And you've talked a lot about how, you know, your type plays into your day to day life. But I'm curious to hear more about what you're doing now and what you're really passionate about within that. Um, you know, your programs, those different things that you're, you're working on now.

Kristi: Yeah, thanks. Um, so I founded, uh, Enneagram university in 2020, and essentially what I do is, My little catch phrase is train the most competent and confident coaches on the market. And I believe that deeply, it took me a long time to be able to present that confidently . Um, but after a lot of student feedback, I'm like, okay, I think I can own that.

Kristi: This is what happens like this is the regular outcome. Okay. Um, so now I have, I primarily most of my tme Is spent leading the Enneagram university ship. I still do some coaching, especially with students who are in EU. Um, but most of my attention is there. So, um, yeah, I train coaches. I teach them everything from like, how do I use the Enneagram in a, not just like a fact memorization way, but in a like true Enneagram wisdom way, like deep soul piece where the Enneagram is a part of who we are, our types are this sort of like learned set of being, but we're not locked in there. We have all this other capacity and healing potential. Um, and then, you know, I tried to,

Kristi: Like squish My master's in counseling, down into coaching skills because, um, you know what I found when I was first looking around at, at Enneagram certification programs, including the one that you, that we went through, um, there's a lot on the Enneagram, like a lot of information, and there isn't a ton of information on coaching skills, how to actually utilize that information to help clients and also like zero on business.

Kristi: I don't like, we're the only Enneagram program that I'm currently as I, as we're recording this familiar with, that has a business component. So it's like awesome. If you learn all the information about the Enneagram, but if you don't know how to help clients utilize it in a way that's healing and like change producing, and you don't even know how to find clients, like you're not gonna be able to live out your passion and the work that you feel called to.

Kristi: So for me, it was important to support Students in all of those areas. Um, and I ran an admissions marketing office too. And so I feel like I have some of the business stuff, um, to at least help students lay a foundation. Um, so it's been awesome. Like it's, it's so fun. And, um, so helping, uh, coaches feel prepared in that way is a huge, huge passion of mine.

Kristi: Um, and then I know that you share this too, but as two white women, we're very familiar that There's a lot of whiteness in the Enneagram space. Um, there's a lot of male energy in the Enneagram space. There's definitely more and more women coming up, but, um, there's so many voices that aren't represented in so many life experiences that aren't represented in the Enneagram world.

Kristi: And so for me, it's, there's a, a deep, deep passion in my soul about like helping everyone feel seen. And so, um, I'm currently adding, I have me and, um, another. So far all female team, which I feel really proud of, um, behind EU from all different walks of life and ages and ethnic backgrounds and cultural experiences and body shapes and sizes. And it's just really fun. So for me, the diversification of the Enneagram space is a massive, massive fashion. Um, we also just announced scholarships, which I feel so excited about like never in a million years that. Okay. Not only will I have an amazing program, but I'll also be able to offer scholarships that prioritizes people who hold marginalized identities and,or are graduate students. So like, that's just a dream for me. So all three of those things, I feel like I was just like the, the passion, um, of my life right now.

Steph: Yeah. Yeah. That's so exciting. And I think, um, Yeah, I definitely, you know, share a lot of that passion. And also, I just wanna to mention about the, the gender aspects, because I think what people see on Instagram is they are like, oh, well this is all for women. But when you're saying, when you're talking about the gendered aspect,

Steph: What we're really thinking about is these big authors that have contributed significantly historically to the Enneagram. Like all of the, older Enneagram books that you can find were mostly, most of them written by men. This newer wave of the Enneagram, I think is definitely a lot more women are coming to the forefront, but there's also that, that tendency for people, even, you know, when you're bidding contracts for, um, corporate, for people to say, To overlook somebody who is a woman with corporate experience and go with the guy who looks corporate versus the woman who actually knows what she's talking about. Like I, like, I think that we see that come up a lot. And I think that that is not just about gender. It's also about, you know, race and class and body size and disability and all these different aspects. And so

Steph: I love that passion that you're doing. And I also think, you know, that, that thing, cuz I actually have. So, um, and so the, the, aspect of the business, part of it is, is not primary in most of them, you know, it's, it's really primarily about, well, you know, some of them don't have the coaching skills, but, um, some of my do have a lot of coaching skills and stuff, but it, it's not really about the business aspect. And so I think that's really important for a lot of people who are. maybe getting suckered sometimes by the sense of like, you can just turn this into money and not having the skills that they need to actually be able to do that and having to invest a lot more time, energy and money outside of, you know, what they originally thought to be able to make that happen. Um, and business is just that though it's business is always learning. Um, but it's cool that you have that integrated

Kristi: Yeah. Yeah.

Kristi: for sure. And thanks for saying that too, cuz I, I think, um, you know, one of the things that made me super sad a couple of years ago before I launched EU was a lot of the people who I saw going through certification programs, learned a lot about the tool, but a few months in, they were like, they went back and got normal jobs or normal in quotes, uh, jobs that they had had before.

Kristi: Um, You know, the, that was just so sad cuz I'm like, oh my gosh, you love people so much. You're so informed about the Enneagram. And if you're not able to find clients like you can't do the work that you're so passionate about.

Kristi: And so, um, you know, I really wanted to help people make it a reality, make it their full-time job, have the freedom to travel or do whatever they want with their families, you know, and, and be able to scale revenue too. You know, I think about a normal job again, in quotes, normal. you only have so much capacity to make more money. And usually as you make more money, your responsibilities increase as well. So when I'm thinking about someone being the whole person and living their fullest and freest an  most joyful, authentic life, how much of that is work? for some people it's a lot. And for other people, it's not a lot at all. And so I just want people to have the freedom to be whoever they are, have whatever business that feels aligned with them and be able to support themselves and their families. And so, yeah, that, that business piece was pretty important. Um, for me, forthat reason.

Steph: Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. Cool. Well, we'll definitely link that in the show notes, um, where people can find that and get into it. Um, and. Maybe like reach out to you probably. Uh

Kristi: Yeah.

Steph: Yeah. So that, uh, you can connect with them. Do you wanna just briefly share, you know, like what are those addresses?

Kristi: Yeah, sure. So, um, on the internet space, so TheEnneagramuniversity.com is the website. Uh, on that website, you can do a few things. You can schedule a free consult with me. I. Promise people it's not a weird salesy thing. It's genuinely a hundred percent just to chat. Does this make sense for you? And is this the program for you? Do you feel aligned with the

Kristi: way that I teach and lead in the community that we have? Um, and you can also get a free preview of the course, so you can get access to the like three actual entire lessons. So one is like a one Hour lesson on the type nine. Um, and then you also have one from level two, which is coaching skills and level three, which is business building skills. So you can get an idea for the depth of content, how I coach and teach, um, and see if that aligns as well. And then just look around, there's like tons of FAQs and, and lots of info on there. Um, so that's on the internet and then on Instagram it's The EnneagramUniversity, just that handle. Uh, you can also find me my Primary page where I do a lot of work and then kind of people funnel over from there to EU sometimes is full and free Enneagram. Uh, that's where I am most of the day. So just engaging, sharing information, doing live coachings online in that space is just fun. So that's where you can find me.

Steph: cool. Thanks for sharing. Yeah, we'll we'll link those things up.

Steph: Okay. Last two questions. These are my favorite questions and I always get really excited because. I, I just tend to, to love to read and I just totally am always reading something. And so I love to talk about books. Um, so tell me. about a book that has helped you shaped you or refreshed you in the last year.

Kristi: Okay, so this is a fun one. I historically have only read like self-help ish books, like in the mental health world or academic books or something. And so I joined a book club this last year and they got me into fiction, which is kind of, that was one of my goals. So I read by Liz Gilbert, Elizabeth Gilbert, um, city of Girls And it was so excellent. It was lighthearted And funny and thoughtful. And the whole kind of narrative is about a woman living her own authentic identity coming into her own self,  like through her, you know, childhood all the way up through the end of her life and also the power of female friend. I just found it really, really beautiful and kind of this alternative way of existing, uh, it set like starting in the 19, like early 19 hundreds, ish time. And so, especially when that was abnormal to have women who don't marry men and have children and have this traditional life, uh, these women and characters don't and it was, it was just a really fun read and I'm a huge Liz Gilbert fan in general. So yeah, it was awesome.

Steph: Awesome. Okay. I'm gonna have to check that out. I have not read that. Okay. and then finally, what is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Kristi: Oh my goodness. In my whole life.

Steph: Right? one piece of advice in your entire life

Kristi: so what's happening in my sixth brain right now is like, oh, think about this. Think about this. What about this one? so one thought in terms of like business owner, Um, I was at a conference probably like four years ago. And one of the speakers, Tom Billyeu said “the only thing that stands between you and the person you wanna be, or your business now in the business you wanna have is a set of skills that you've not yet learned.”

Kristi: And I, at, when I went to that conference, I was legitimately on the edge of just calling it quits because everything just felt so. And I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I wake up every morning thinking how's the best way to spend my time. I'm a total idiot, cuz I don't know how to do this. I'm youtubing constantly.

Kristi: I'm reading Google articles about how to figure out this tech thing or what the best approach is. And um, I'm hearing all these new like, oh, you should focus on email marketing. You should focus on social media. You should focus on having a great website. You should offer group offers. You should have- And it was just so many things so for me it was like, okay.

Kristi: The only reason that I'm unhappy in my business, or I don't feel fulfilled yet is because there's a set of skills I haven't yet learned. And if I have the capacity to learn those skills, which I do, because I've learned a billion things in my life, then that's all it takes. Like that's the only requirement to have a business that I feel proud of and love working in. So that like legitimately I feel like saved some of my- yeah, just like what my business is today and helped it exist. Um, also this isn't really advice, but, um, the mother Theresa quote, we belong to each other is like a guiding principle in my life. And that in some ways maybe is advice of like her reminding us that we're what we have on this earth. So like, if we can love and embrace and create safe spaces and have more fun together and allow people to be theirselves, like we belong to each other. That's probably too is a sexual dominant type. Right. I'm like, that's all that matters. Just love people and be kind so.

Steph: Yeah, those are two really great pieces of advice. And I, it, the, uh, Tom billyeu quote reminds me of the book Mindset by Carol Dweck.

Kristi: I haven't read that

Kristi: one.

Steph: She it's just fascinating. And she talks a lot about, um, just in her research in general, she talks about a fixed mindset being like I'm smart basically. So I can figure this out type or not even so I can figure this out, but like, I'm like relying on your own Natural abilities or skills. And even at, at times, I mean, that's in the positive way, but even at times, it's like more fixed in the sense where I say come up. Well, I'm an eight, so I have to act like that. Basically, that sort of thing. That's how I see it. Right. Um, and versus a growth mindset, which is that thought process of like, all that I need to know is that I have the ability to learn. So if I haven't learned something yet, that's fine. But like all that I need to know, right now Is that that growth is possible. Like, I can learn something, I can develop something, I can do something new. Um, so I love that thought process though, because whether it's in your business or in the Enneagram space where it's like, okay, well maybe I'm not naturally this way based on my type. I can develop that skill. Like, you know, so, so thinking through things in that that process I think is so crucial.

Kristi: Mm, that's so good. That reminds me of when I was in college, I had a professor tell me that, um, I would never be allowed in dreaming meetings in a future organization because I was Such a reality focused person that I would like squash ideas. And at the time I thought it was funny, you know, we had a good relationship and I thought it was kind of playful. And I was like, oh yeah, that's totally true. Like, I'm not really good at dreaming, but there came a time in my life and business where I was like, wait a second. What if that's not true? What if, what if I can be creative? What if I do have creativity that lies within me and actually another Liz Gilbert book, big magic helped me walk through some of that.

Kristi: And, um, yeah, so I, I love that like, oh, eight are this way. So that's what I I'm like. It's like, okay, well that's how you've been. Is that serving you? Do you want to continue being that way? Like we can be any sort of way we want, so that's really beautiful. I love that.

Steph: Yeah. Okay, great. I'm gonna. Make sure everyone can like connect with those books, that advice. Um, and thanks so much.

Steph: for joining me. This has been great.

Kristi: thanks for having me. It's been really fun to spend a good hour reconnecting and chatting with all this stuff.

Steph: Yeah. Thanks so much.

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you.

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The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of Nine Types Co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron Hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from Critz Collaborations. Thanks to Dr Dream Chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify.