Why Small "t" Traumas Matter & How They Impact Our Lives with Dr. Meg Arroll

Meg: 1:30

The difficulty is, because we have been Kind of told to push these things under the carpet. We've missed out on those very important opportunities to actually use some of these experiences to build coping skills, to really build our psychological and emotional toolkit that will help us in future to navigate. All types of trauma.

Samson Q2U Microphone & Golden Delicious 3: 2:01

Hello, and welcome to Instagram in real life, a podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host Steph Berrien hall. And on today's episode, I have a bit of an, any adjacent. Guest for you today. So if you've been listening to the podcast for long you've probably noticed that I really like talking about not only the Enneagram and topology and how our types kind of work together. But also about the other tools that we need to bring in to actually apply our Enneagram knowledge in our lives. I think of the Enneagram as a map of sorts. And so it kind of tells us where we have come from, where we're headed, how we can get there, those sorts of things. And I think that there are so many other tools and concepts outside of the Instagram in particular. That we can use to actually develop ourselves and work on these different things that we need to work on in our Enneagram journey. Over the last few years. I, and many of you, I know have been learning more about trauma. Not only. You know, these big T traumas, but also kind of the little things that can be really impactful for us in ways that we don't really expect or recognize. And how they can be somewhat jarring for us in our daily lives. And so I am joined today by Dr. Meg arrow, who is the. Author of a new book called tiny traumas when you don't know what's wrong, but nothing feels quite right. And lucky for us. Uh, today is the official release of the us version. So if you are in the United States And you're listening to this podcast. You can now officially get her book here in the United States. And we are going to talk a lot more about this book today. But before we do that, I want to introduce you a little bit to Meg. So Dr. Meg Errol is. Uh, charter psychologist, scientists, and author with a specialist focus on behavioral psychology related to health and wellness. Invisible and misunderstood illness and everyday trauma. Dr. Meg has published widely in peer reviewed journals, including British medical journal and medical hypotheses. In addition to. Seven mainstream books for the public on topics ranging from chronic fatigue to emotional eating. Dr. Meg works on a one-to-one basis with individuals in corporate settings to improve health and performance. And as an advisor to brands and the media as a regular contributor to commercial publications, such as the daily mail and psychologies magazine. Dr. Meg translates, complex scientific theories and research for a public dissemination may has held academic positions at a number of universities and is currently an assessor for the British psychological societies chartered route. In coaching psychology. She's busy promoting her most recent book, tiny traumas around the world across 33 publication territories, including the UK USA throughout Europe, south America, Asia and Australia. And splits her time between London and the Southern states of the United States. So. Of course was such an impressive resume. I um, knew that this would be a really rich conversation, but I just really enjoyed chatting with, Dr. Meg about her. Book and her process and some of her early research that she shared with me as well. So in today's episode, we're going to be talking about little T traumas, exactly what that means and why they're so important and how a lot of the time. When we talk about trauma, we're talking about big traumatic events, but these smaller events that we sometimes disregard can actually kind of seep in and, um, take root in our psyches and actually have a really big impact on our lives in ways that we don't anticipate. In addition to that, we also talk about. Y things like keep calm and carry on are not that helpful. Dr. Meg's, approach what she calls AAA awareness, acceptance, and action. Some of the benefits of expressive, emotional writing. what is our psychological immune system? And finally what Dr. Meg says when people say is it is everything just trauma nowadays. And how she kind of responds to that question and, a little bit of how we can. Make sense of all of this for ourselves. So today is a really, just an incredible rich episode. I really hope that you enjoy it and I hope you run out and grab this book. I know. I've been working through it myself and I've been really, really enjoying a tiny traumas. By Dr. Meg Errol. So, you can grab all of this or find more information in the show notes. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Dr. Meg.

Steph: 6:40

Well, Dr. Meg Arrell, welcome to the podcast.

Meg: 6:43

Oh, thank you so much, Steph. I am so excited to be here. Yeah,

Steph: 6:47

Yeah. Um, well, we've already been talking a little bit about your book, um, which you have had it out in the UK for nearly a year and now it's having its new U S release. Um, and I'm curious, how has it been going so far with your book release? Yeah.

Meg: 7:06

so the initial publication was in, in the UK. So, um, I was based in the UK for most of my life. Although I'm actually, um, American. I was born in Clearwater, Florida. And right this moment, I'm, I'm in Alabama. So, yes. Um, but, uh, yeah, so it's been a busy, busy year, the UK release, but then we've also had releases in, um, oh gosh, there really are so many countries in Norway, in Sweden, um, in Mexico, uh, Portugal, so it's been, it's been incredibly busy. So I'm really excited to get back to the UK. exciting, but also very interesting to see the response in different areas of the world. And yes, the release, um, in the US is, is in January. So we are very excited about that too.

Steph: 7:57

Well, I love that it's being released in so many different places because I found your take on trauma and this concept of tiny, tiny T trauma in particular to be really refreshing. Um, so I want to dive into that today, but before we do, could you just give us a little background? Like how did you end up here? What is your background and your education?

Meg: 8:18

Yeah. So, so that question, um, you know, how did you, how did you land here? It seems like such a small, tiny question, but it's such a big question and it's so, it's so complex. Um, so I was, I was thinking about how, how, how best to. sort of answer that. Um, and what I would say is I'm a psychologist. I'm a chartered psychologist and chartered scientist, um, in the UK. And I always had a real interest in the human mind and behavior, but, but really what I like are, are the gaps. And so, during my, uh, training as a social scientist, we really are taught to look for those gaps. And I love the little nooks and crannies, just to get to those kind of dark spots where, where there isn't a lot of conversation, where perhaps we need to do a bit more research, where perhaps, You know, people may be struggling, but really don't, um, uh, get the validation and help that is warranted. So my, my research and my practice has always been around presentations or conditions that are rather stigmatized, rather misunderstood. Um, PhD was around chronic fatigue, which is still quite stigmatized and misunderstood, but we are getting much, much better at, um, helping people to, to live with longterm conditions such as CFS and ME and IBS and fibromyalgia. Um, and there's just so many, so many invisible illnesses. So yes, research was, was there initially, and it was actually, um, a lecture I was preparing for a module, um, when I was, when I was teaching in academia called the Psychology of Physical Illness and this was a final year module so it was an elective module and so many of our students had conditions that they really wanted to know a lot more about and I was researching, um, a lecture on Irritable Bowel Syndrome and that was actually the first time I came across the concept of low grade cumulative trauma. And so, when we're talking about tiny t trauma, or little t trauma, or sometimes small t trauma it's called, is around the, the pattern and the accumulation of smaller events and experiences in people's lives that really build up as a type of psychological and emotional sludge that really is like a plaque on our emotional arteries as it were and in, in this research I was doing for, for this class, um, it really blew me away. It was one of those pivotal moments because I found a study that compared Big T Trauma. So, Big T Trauma is a trauma that we understand quite a lot about now. So, living through a natural disaster or, or a war zone, and perhaps being subject to a violent attack. So, we, we understand that as being traumatic. But this study compared those Big T Traumas with these smaller, tiny T Traumas. So, perhaps growing up in a home that wasn't abusive per se, but perhaps love was. Um, also experiencing, uh, numerous microaggressions in life. So these, as I say, lower grade, but, you know, cumulative, the buildup of trauma. And so as a scientist, my expectation was going to be that both of these, um, types of trauma would, would lead to certain outcomes. So both physical and mental health outcomes. But what blew me away was that the main finding was that actually, the smaller tiny t traumas had a bigger impact on people's health outcomes in this study than the big t trauma. And it was one of these wide awake moments, I was like, this is so incredibly important. There was this gap here, and it just aligned with so many, um, of my students experiences, my own experiences, and then my own therapeutic work, and I was like, yeah, we need to talk about this a bit more. Mm

Steph: 12:53

Yeah, that's so interesting because, you know, even as I was reading that in your book, I was like floored by that, that, um, data that you found. And I think we just tend to overlook it and tend to brush it off. Not only, um, in ourselves, but even in people around us. Um, I grew up in Texas and anyone who's listened to, uh. It's called Renee Brown, right? It has heard her talk about, there's like this real Texas mentality of you just pull yourself up by your bootstraps. And um, it was so validating reading your book because I noticed at times when I had really challenging things happen in my life, like for example, like a work situation that was really challenging. Um, I would just tell myself, it's not that big of a deal. Just grow up, you know. up, you can do it. And how that's actually not all that useful. Um, but at the time I had no idea.

Meg: 13:52

And that's the thing. So in, in the UK, there's like a slogan, keep calm and carry on. And it's really interesting because this has been taken and used just for every single situation that anyone can go through in life. But when you understand the history of this slogan, so The slogan was developed by the, the British government, um, for the Second World War. And it was really to boost, sort of, motivation, but also to, to help the, the public to be able to cope with what they knew was coming. And they knew there was going to be a lot of big tea trauma. And so for those big teas, some, some of those messages can be useful to just help people to get through to the other side, but it's not the same for tiny tea. And so it's like comparing apples and pears. So they're both fruit. So this is both two types of trauma, but they are qualitatively different. And I think it's worth reminding as well, that The diagnosis of PTSD, of post traumatic stress disorder, was only entered in the DSM, so this is like psychologist's and psychiatrist's manual of diagnostic, um, conditions. It was only entered in the DSM in 1980. That is not very long ago. And it was It was so debated. It was so contentious. And a lot of people really said, Look, this doesn't exist. This does not exist. Now, that would be such an offensive message to say. And we all understand that PTSD is a very, very real condition. But it took time for us to understand that. But we forget that because we are at this place of knowledge now. And with the low grade type trauma, the tiny traumas, we are going through a zeitgeist change. So we are Starting to understand this type of trauma that affects many more people than the Big T trauma. And that's what I saw in my clinic. I did see people who had some very major big T type events, but actually even the clients that had those experiences, they had received. therapeutic interventions and they felt like they understood them. They really felt like they had received appropriate help for those, but they still did not feel good. They did not feel okay. And there is so much more going on here. And that sense of keep calm and carry on, you know, just, you know, get back on the horse or just, you know, pull up your boots is not so helpful for this type of trauma.

Steph: 16:28

Yeah. Yeah. That's really helpful to keep in mind because I do think, and as you've highlighted in your book, we have that self gaslighting tendency, which I don't love how. You know, I'm not a therapist or anything, but I can still see how we're applying to that term gaslight to everything. And I don't love that, but I do think it's helpful to identify when we're doing that to ourselves and dismissing our own pain or, or challenges. Um, what do you think are some misconceptions that people have about? Tiny T traumas.

Meg: 17:01

So, um, in addition to just equating or trying to fit this, um, round peg into the big T square hole. There are many misconceptions and it is around that piece where we invalidate our own. experience. So one misconception really is that the, the size in inverted commas of the trauma is directly correlated with the impact on an individual is a huge misconception because we are complex beings and something doesn't happen within a vacuum. So it will impact different people in different ways. And that's one message I really do want to get across. It is not the perceived size of the event. It is the impact on the individual. And even with big T trauma, there's a big misunderstanding here. Um, so there's almost a sort of assumption that everyone who goes through a traumatic experience will develop a psychological presentation. Actually, the research shows that in terms of big T events. About 50 percent of people do, but 50 percent of people don't. And so that's really important to, to get our heads around when we're talking about trauma of any sort. So really in terms of our preconceptions about the actual trauma, we, it would be beneficial, it would serve us better to put those aside and look at the impact on us actually.

Steph: 18:36

So you're saying that more than the, the event, what's important is understanding no matter the size of the event, the quote unquote size of the event, the impact is what matters.

Meg: 18:49

Absolutely. And the difficulty is, because we haven't really been talking about tiny traumas, tiny t traumas, is that, I'll give you an example. So what I see, I would say, almost without fail, every week, what I see in, in my consultation room, well, most of it's online, but say, online room, are clients that come in and they say, Yeah, Meg, I don't know why I'm here and you can see them almost sort of virtually or physically back out of the room and again, there's that sense of that sort of a little bit of self shame a little bit of invalidation there and They say you know nothing that I can't put my finger on it, and that's where we start doing the work, and we start to unravel a constellation of tiny t traumas, and often times mixed in with some major life events. The difficulty is, because we have been Kind of told to push these things under the carpet. We've missed out on those very important opportunities to actually use some of these experiences to build coping skills, to really build our psychological and emotional toolkit that will help us in future to navigate. All types of trauma.

Steph: 20:12

Yeah, I'm wondering, too, if you can speak a little bit to the cumulative nature of these traumas.

Meg: 20:19

Mm hmm. So, one of the motivations to write the book is I wanted to put everything in, in some sort of order, and I wanted to really have a, a sense of what I saw in, in my clinic week by week. And so, the types of presentations or themes that I saw, they were things like high functioning anxiety, low grade depression or emotional blunting. Um, clients having difficulties with navigating life's transitions. Also things like emotional eating, sleep disorders. Um, and I would say sub optimal sleep patterns actually and these are things that if you go to your primary care physician In the UK if you go to your GP You might not receive a lot of help because you're not going to fit into this diagnostic criteria That really looks at the most severe cases So if we already have that sense of maybe it's not bad enough and we go to see a mental health doctor Um, professional and they kind of say, well, you don't meet the diagnostic criteria because actually you're still going to work. You're, you're, you're still looking after your family. You may even still be socializing. And these are what we call activities of daily living and most diagnostic criteria. If you can still do your life, you're not going to meet that, um, those guidelines for that condition. So you're not then offered. So I wanted to put together a collection of these presentations to really to show people that, you know, this is what we are dealing with in the mental health community and what you're experiencing is likely to be very similar to other.

Steph: 21:59

Yeah. That makes sense. Um, and I think it makes sense, too, because I've heard so much about, um, a lot of the time a therapist's role is to get their clients to subclinical. Now, I've heard, you know, different people say different things about this, but in my own experience, I've had times where it's like, okay, now I'm subclinical, but I, I don't feel like I'm thriving, right? Like I don't feel like I'm doing great, but my therapist is like, well, you're not meeting clinical criteria, just like you've said. Um, so what can we do? Because if we're in that, that middle zone, it's difficult.

Meg: 22:36

and and this is why I really truly believe that we were going through a zeitgeist change because Um in terms of understanding mental health and mental illness it is not um It's not binary It is a continuum and actually we can move on that continuum at different points in our life. It is not fixed And what we want to do is we want to support people. So even, um, even actually, even if they're doing pretty good, we can still help people to thrive even more. But if we're moving along that continuum and having difficulties, then not to say that, you know what, you're not bad enough, you're not bad enough for help. We can help you wherever you are, whatever point you are here. And to bring mental health in that sense, even to a more preventative type, um, intervention, we want to be able to capture subclinical. Levels of anxiety or of low mood or of perfectionism there so that they don't reach that point where you do meet the clinical criteria because with any type of condition, early intervention is beneficial.

Steph: 23:51

Okay, so if I come into your clinic, and I am struggling, just hypothetically, with maladaptive perfectionism. Okay, I've heard you mention this. What do we do?

Meg: 24:04

hmm. Mm hmm. So, another motivation to, to write the book was that I was developing an approach, really, to help, um, with these, say, subclinical presentations with tiny T trauma. And it's, it's based on, on quite, quite a few well known type of therapeutic approaches. So, it's based on acceptance and commitment therapy. There are bits of CBT in there, of cognitive cognitive behavioral therapy. And again, one thing I want to really point out is that we stand on the shoulders of giants. So we accept that CBT is, is, um, a effective type of approach, but we forget that it didn't always exist. It was taken from behavioral approaches and, and cognitive approaches, and it was merged. And now we just kind of understand it. And so we're just always moving. forward. So I developed what I call my triple A approach and the three A's stand for awareness, acceptance and action and they're all equally important. So what we would do is we would start with the awareness piece and awareness that tiny teeth exist, that low grade cumulative trauma is important, it warrants our attention, um, but then to have an awareness of how the experiences in our lives have impacted us. So we would do quite a bit of work around that. But then move on to acceptance and the acceptance piece can often be the hardest piece. Um, and I was having a, a debate with, with another therapist about this and, and she was saying, well, people don't need to accept their lot in life. I said, that's not what we mean here. What we mean is we can't change the past. So there is, there's a piece around there to accept what has happened to us because some of the most difficult psychological conflict comes where we cannot accept where we are right now. And that. Actually prevents us from moving forward in the future, but we must move forward actually and that's where the action piece which includes some Accountability to accountability for own health and well being comes in so it's a dynamic Process and actually we can move between the stages as well, and we do come back. I often see people Almost get caught in the awareness piece and and and become a bit lost in it And so it is about thinking what will pull you through to the next stage and what will help you get even further And once we have these skills we can use them again and again throughout life And that's another point I, I would really like to, to make that psychology and therapeutic approaches, um, they need to be practiced like any other skill. So if, if we say joined the gym, um, and went once. We would kind of know we're not going to be improving our physical fitness. It's the same with psychology. Um, we do need to have these as part of our everyday health and well being routine, as it were.

Steph: 27:14

Yeah, I'm curious if you can share a little bit, because in your book you shared one vignette where somebody was jumping right into action. So they're kind of skipping acceptance and in the awareness piece. And I wonder if you can share what the risk is with that. And why are we tempted to do that?

Meg: 27:32

So again, that's another, another presentation that I see so frequently where, where there is such a desire. There's such a desire to feel better. And there's so much mental health information out there. So in magazines or websites, Tik Tok, all social media, and it's all very action orientated. So I've worked with the media, um, and have some amazing friends who are journalists and what they always want. They're like, Meg, give me your top three tips. Like it doesn't really work that way, but. Okay, if we can put it within a caveat that actually there's more to this, so there's again, there's almost a misconception that if we just follow these tips, if we just do this thing, that is enough. And it oftentimes, these, these tips, these, these tricks and these hacks, they will make us feel better in the moment. And, and maybe for a little bit. But what happens is we still come back to this place of, Oh, I was, I was actually putting a band aid on quite a deep wound here. Um, and actually I didn't really clean it out properly, so it's not going to heal. So that's why the action piece It can, it can be a short term fix, but it's not that long term and profound type of work that really does lead to building psychological strength, what I call the psychological immune system, because we do need to deal with what we've been through properly in that way and have that level of acceptance. And then we can do The action pieces and what will happen then, those action points, they will actually work so much better.

Steph: 29:15

Yeah, that, that makes sense. And I think it does track with my own life. Um, and I know that you have. Spoken and written about, um, tools like expressive writing. Um, I'm a big fan of, you know, James Pennebaker's work and, um, some of his research. And so I'm wondering if you can share a little bit more about that from your perspective.

Meg: 29:35

Oh my gosh, I love Peter Baker's work. Actually I met him at a conference once and it was kind of like a big sort of fan moment. It was a long

Steph: 29:44

I would be starstruck.

Meg: 29:46

absolutely, absolutely. And in fact, I used one of his psychometric tools in my PhD research, which is a very, very long time ago. And that, again, was when I first came across this. And there is such a huge and robust Bus literature of evidence that shows the beneficial outcomes of emotional writing. But even of just writing down our thoughts, it doesn't have to be structured. And I think there's a misconception here as well that, um, if we're engaging in expressive emotional writing, then we're going to have to really write all our deep, deep feelings. But no, just, just writing our thoughts can, can be helpful. And what it does is it allows us to make sense of our experience. experience, and that's really the most important thing. As human beings, we are meaning making machines. If our minds can't make sense of something, it will go around in circles, and what happens is we do tend to start to develop repetitive type thoughts, which can be quite intrusive then. So to be able to download our thoughts and feelings is so important, but there's actually research that shows even writing lists Transcripts can be very helpful in terms of our mental health, so it doesn't have to be always this big deep dive. And there are loads of ways to, to help us to do this, so journaling, journal prompts because it can be quite intimidating to look at a blank sheet of paper. I would always encourage everyone to Use pen and paper because it's, it's slower than typing and it

Steph: 31:25

Oh no.

Meg: 31:25

that time and space to really get some of those processing points, you know, really happening in that way. Also, it is nice to look back on it. So, so Steph, I wonder if you had a diary when you were a younger, a younger kid? Okay.

Steph: 31:45

I, I did and I didn't. Um, I think I felt like I should, like I've always loved to read. So I would read stories about, about girls who kept diaries. And I, I think I had one with like a little lock, you know, and so I would try to write things, but I didn't do a ton of that. And then later, um, as I got a bit older, I grew up in, um, Uh, more of a religious context in which there was a lot of commitment to devotional writing and diaries. However, when I was, um, in college at times I was in an environment where I had to turn those in, um, to be graded. So it made it, it really turned me off of any sort of journaling for many years. And just a few years ago, I, when I found James Pennebaker's work, um, I, that's when I kind of got into it again.

Meg: 32:44

interesting how, how some of those more external, um, factors can be, can be so, so influencer, sorry, can be so influential in terms of how, how We, we perceive and view activities that, that are aligned with our mental health and absolutely in term, in terms of emotional writing. I, I always say to my clients, if we talked about journaling prompts or, or there's, you know, there's been some homework set in between sessions that were, that they, they don't need to share anything with me at all. Um, the, the, the process. of just writing the things down is, is really useful. Now, I did have, I did have a diary and um, it had a little lock and I hid it, I hid it in a bear. So the bear had like a little tummy you could open and put it in. And I found, I found those diaries years and years later and it was just So interesting to look back. And so sometimes we need kind of a motivation to, to engage in activities that are beneficial to us because life is really, really busy. It's really busy. And I do have a conversation with, with clients that it can just be so helpful to, to be able to view our transformation, our progress, because we don't remember where we were sometimes. So that can be helpful as well, but not, not necessarily to be, to be shared with anyone else, not even your therapist, but, um, some people don't get on with it and it's not a one size fits all at all. And so there's, there's an exercise in the book that if, if a client is, is. It's not, you know, it doesn't really want to or doesn't feel aligned with emotional writing that they can use and it's based around emojis. So I call it the emoji game and uh, most of us use emojis like with it, within our communication. So I would ask the client to, to actually look, look at their phone, um, and see what, what most. Most frequently used emojis are and it's really interesting. It's really interesting what comes up and your listeners they can do this and To see see what those emojis are the ones that are used used most in your communications and to ask yourself What does that emoji really mean to you? And here's where we get that important bit because it's not about what we think it means to other people What does it mean to you and then to think a bit about? When was the last time you truly experienced that emotion? So, oftentimes, um, for me especially, I use the kind of, um, laugh out loud, the crying laughter one. And when I asked myself this, when really was the last time that you laughed so hard that you cried, and sometimes it had been a long time, I thought that was really interesting. So it's useful to, to check in with ourselves what that emotion really, really means. And then if it's a feel good emotion, it's useful to explore. Is there anything you can do to bring more of this into your life? So identify that actually, um, When I laugh until I cry is almost always with my sister. Because we have the same really stupid sense of humor and we're also very obsessed with the 80s. In fact last night we went to, we went to the Beetlejuice musical and we did quite a lot of laughing until we were crying then. And just to know, you know what, life is really really busy and so a way to maintain That sense of flourishing is to pause for a moment and think, You know, I want some more of that. How can I do that? So, spend some time with my sister and get really nostalgic about the 1980s. It always makes us laugh out loud. Um, and we can do this exercise as well with emotions that are seen to be, unpleasant. And we can think about what were the circumstances, what was the context then that made us feel this way. And that brings a lot of information because all, all of this information is useful and it's just below the surface. It just takes a little bit of, of work and it is work, I would say, a little bit of effort to be able to, to just open up some of these discoveries.

Steph: 37:19

Yeah, that's so enlightening and insightful. And I think I actually had a moment last week, perhaps, when I was laughing until I was crying. And um, It made me think I hadn't done that in so long. Yeah, um,

Meg: 37:36

And, and that's the thing, because like, in, in terms of some of the presentations, you know, that emotional blunting, where you don't feel depressed, certainly. And I've had so many clients say to me, you know, Dr. Meg, I'm not depressed, I don't know why I'm here, I'm not depressed, but I just don't feel anything. That, that's a useful place to start, I would always say. So, what, what are some of those feelings that you want to get back? And why? And what can you do? And who can you be with? And it is just, just thinking about it in a little bit more detail. And then using and stepping into that place of action to be able to do that. And again, I would say that this Emotional literacy point is incredibly important. So, you know, we all know the importance of, of literacy, numeracy, even financial literacy these days, emotional literacy is so imperative to human flourishing because even emotions that, even those feelings that feel very unpleasant like sadness, like loss, like like that sense of melancholy, they are telling us something Uh, about our lives at present and oftentimes about what we've experienced in the past, whether they be the tiny t traumas, the major life events, or even the big t traumas. And so by being attuned to how we're feeling, we can raise our levels of emotional literacy. That help us to regulate emotions, process emotions and all those really good things because some of Penny Baker's work is just amazing around that piece of emotional regulation. So it's not, it's not again, this is another misconception that we must act on all of our emotions. No, it's not about that. But in terms of regulating how we feel is absolutely associated with flourishing and very good mental health.

Steph: 39:34

yeah. Yeah, and I think that can be so difficult and I even read in your book a little bit about like the vicarious trauma and how challenging that can be. Um, but I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to the psychological immune system analogy that you brought up.

Meg: 39:53

Absolutely. So I do find it helpful to kind of, um, uh, use comparisons with physical health because we tend to understand physical health, um, quite well these days. So in terms of the psychological immune system, if we think about our physical immune system, we are born with a level of immunity. So we get that from our mothers. So we have some innate, um, immunity, which will help us survive when we're out in the world, but actually we also have adaptive immunity. And what that means is that when we have been presented with a pathogen, say a bacteria, a virus, something like that, our immune system, We'll heighten the response and we'll develop antibodies to that pathogen so that next time we are faced with it Our bodies know what to do and and that's why with little kids, you know We say, you know, let them pick up some colds and some bugs because it helps their immune system actually The psychological immune system is exactly the same. So we are born with an innate stress response. So this stress response, um, helps us to survive. We need it. It can feel unpleasant, but actually we need it so much that it hasn't really changed since early human being. And sometimes that can be challenging within our very busy, complex, technological lives, but we really do need to have it. So for instance, if a car swerves in front of you, that stress response, that will absolutely get in there. Our pupils will really, really focus on what we need to do. We will be able to swerve out of the way without even thinking about it. Our heart will be beating, beating so hard because our blood is pumping glucose around so that we have the energy to be able to do it. So that's the innate stress response. But, we have an adaptive psychological immunity too. So when we are presented with life's challenges, If we use them to develop coping mechanisms, we can strengthen our psychological immune system. And that is why it can be so harmful to brush all these things under the carpet, to brush those tiny t traumas under the carpet, because we are not using them to build psychological strength. When difficulties happen, We can take things from them, and that is not around that toxic positivity sense. It is accepting those things are hard. We're not just trying to ignore them. We're not dismissing them. How can we use this? How can we use this experience to be able to have that sense of resilience? And resilience is not about simply bouncing back. It's misunderstood. Again, we're talking about so many misconceptions here, but it's misunderstood. Resilience is about pausing, taking that time to think about what have I been through, what do I need, what coping mechanism, what strategy do I need, is it something around social support, is it something around some practical level, to have that pause and think about and to build that adaptive level of psychological immunity.

Steph: 43:08

I think that's so helpful because especially, you know, we are talking about the Enneagram and we talk about the Enneagram a lot here. And, um, I think sometimes there is this assumption that the types that have an easy time bouncing back are gonna have more of that. Like psychological immunity or like the the adaptive stress response, but I think so for me I'm type 3 and I a lot of my life have been able to do that bounce back really easily Right, but then when I got to a place where that wasn't available anymore Or I had like this prolonged period of burnout or stress or whatever. It was like I had to build that From the ground up, like I had nothing to use as like that adaptive response. Um, and I'm wondering if you, you know, if you've ever seen that in, in maybe you don't know your clients, Enneagram types, or, but maybe even in yourself, your own type and things like that.

Meg: 44:08

Oh, definitely, definitely. And so, um, I'm type two, so I'm, I'm the, the, the giver, the helper, the, the, um, the, sometimes it's called the supportive advisor that there's different labels isn't there. And so that makes sense. I'm a psychologist. Um, so there, there are areas that actually that, that fits in with my type. And so there really is more of that innate sense of, yes, I can cope with. I have certain challenges and many of my clients come in and they feel so confused and they think you know what I'm great in a disaster, I can cope with very difficult things very, very, very well, so I don't understand why this is so, so challenging. And it is maybe this is a psychological pathogen that you've never come across before. So you don't have those emotional antibodies to it. Having that awareness, that awareness piece is so reassuring. Because first of all, you know, if you haven't practiced that. skill. Why would you be able to just do it immediately? You know, we wouldn't be able to pick up an instrument and just play it. You know, we wouldn't be a concert, um, musician if we've never ever practiced before. So again, We give ourselves such a hard time for not being able to just cope, but actually it may be that there is some work around there in terms of those particular types of emotional antibodies that we haven't had to develop yet. But what I would say is that in general, you know, coping skills, they do transfer to a point. And oftentimes we can be Very good in certain situations because they do suit our personality type and enneagram type. But life will push us into other types of roles and situations and then we need to think, okay, what, what bit of the psychological muscle here, what bit of the psychological immune system here needs to, to really be developed, to be grown in that way?

Steph: 46:08

Yeah, that's so useful to think about and even as you were describing that I had this like aha moment. This is probably you're like that's exactly how this works, but it just like brought it into clear vision for me thinking about. You know, again, you know, we mentioned the cumulative nature of these, where it's like, perhaps you're already at the edge of your window of tolerance, and then there might be like that tiny trauma that piles on top. And then that's when it becomes a thing where you have, you don't have the resources to have that resilient or bounce back response.

Meg: 46:42

Absolutely. And I, I do call this type of trauma, trauma by a thousand cuts. Because it is that last nick, that last scrape that really kind of topples us over to that point of overwhelm, to that point of not feeling like we're coping there. But the difficulty is because we haven't really talked about the cumulative nature of low grade trauma, um, oftentimes we are still looking for that big thing and we think, God, it wasn't that bad. It wasn't that big thing. Why? And we give ourselves. So in terms of not being able to identify that Big T Trauma, it's like well you know what, other people have it worse off than us. I should be able to cope. I should be able to handle this or I cope something with something worse in the past and it just doesn't work like that. Again, apples and pears we're comparing to and another sort of, another sort of analogy with the physical health system. We wouldn't ignore someone who had high blood pressure just because other people have heart attacks, would we? We would treat the high blood pressure so that perhaps it doesn't develop into a heart attack. And that's really that place of the cumulative nature of psychological distress.

Steph: 48:17

Yeah. And even as you're saying that, what it reminds me of is, I think. I do a lot of the awareness and a lot of the action. So I do awareness, ruminate, then action, right? And then I'm like, why isn't this working? And that acceptance piece can be so hard.

Meg: 48:35

hmm. I, I,

Steph: 48:37

have to validate.

Meg: 48:39

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And, uh, validation is a radical act of self love. Or if you're validating others, it's a radical act. It's challenging. We, we live in societies that constantly invalidate our experiences. So, there's bravery there. There's real, real courage there. There's courage in acceptance. It is. In my view, as a psychologist, as a therapist, as a human being, it is the hardest piece. We want to piggyback over it, we want to skip over it, because it hurts. It's painful. It's painful to accept that life isn't exactly the way that we wanted it to be, the way we thought it might be. That doesn't mean that we can't make changes, but having that level of acceptance, to know exactly where we are right now, is Really, the key to unlocking that door to whatever, whatever we may want it to be, whatever we want our lives to look like.

Steph: 49:43

yeah, yeah. I wonder if, um, you have a response or if you've gotten this pushback where people say online, like, um, Well, is everything just trauma nowadays? What do you say to that?

Meg: 49:58

I would say, oftentimes, the very people that are making those sorts of comments are people that have been invalidated in their lives in the past. And so, I would take that comment with a big, again, with a big dose of compassion. And, and I would say, you know, what's happened, you know, what led you to that comment, and see where that goes.

Steph: 50:26

Yeah, I think that's so helpful and validating. And I, I always tell like my coaching clients, like everything makes sense in context, right? Like, so my response or how I felt about it or whatever, but I forget to tell myself that

Meg: 50:41

Oh,

Steph: 50:41

I'm my worst client.

Meg: 50:44

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I have to remind myself constantly. And I use visual reminders. I use things like post it notes. I use things like, you know, some of the tools that I suggest. I use things like passwords to remind myself to be kind. To be as kind to myself as I would be to my clients. As I would be to my best friend. As I would be to my sister. Because we do have that inner critic. We have that inner critic because actually, again, for survival, we are programmed to look out for threat. And so, and we can be, we can be quite hypervigilant, you know, in terms of ourselves, but to practice letting that go somewhat, to be able to have that level of self compassion, but also self trust. And I do believe that self trust is even more helpful in lots of ways than self love. Self love can be really difficult, especially if we haven't been loved unconditionally ourselves in the past. We don't even know what that is. But to trust ourselves and to trust that what we're feeling is valid, and you're right, within its context, everything does make sense.

Steph: 51:55

such a good, um, reminder for all of us, I think, um, and I'm wondering, so we know your book is coming out, uh, so Tiny Traumas, I love the subtitle by the way, you don't know what's wrong, but nothing feels quite right.

Meg: 52:12

of the book, so that it's, Steph, as you'll know, it's so hard, it's so hard to really give that message out in a, in a few, in a few words. And one thing I have had pushback actually is, is, is about the, the tiny traumas. Um, and I've had some, some people say, well, you're, you're actually just dismissing people's experience by calling it, it tiny in that way. And what we're talking about is we're talking about the lower case T on the word trauma because it is important to. To not, to not just conflate those apples and pears. It is different. And so we need more creative. We need more ways to help people to get to that place of thriving, without a doubt. And the subtitle, it's just what I see day in, day out. What I've experienced myself. I know I'm not alright, but I don't know what's wrong. And that, again, is a good place to start.

Steph: 53:13

yeah, yeah, um, and, and what that kind of reminds me of is like having that awareness and then. Moving into that next step through reading and trying the different exercises you have in the book Where can people find you online?

Meg: 53:30

So, uh, website is drmegarrell. com, um, and socials, uh, I keep it all the same because I, I, I like simplicity, so it's all just drmegarrell, and last name is A R R O L L. Please do share your experiences of these low grade cumulative trauma, because the more we talk about it, the more that we will allow that zeitgeist to change. And Steph, I truly believe in 10, 15, and it may take a bit longer, 20 years time, we'll look back and we will be like, why didn't we understand this then? In the same way, when we look back at 1980 and think, Why was there even a debate about PTSD being in the DSM? We will be so shocked that our knowledge, you know, took time and actually took a bit of conflict to get there, to be able to validate everyone's experience.

Steph: 54:30

Yeah, I believe that I look forward to that. Um

Meg: 54:34

Me too.

Steph: 54:34

Okay in closing. Yeah In closing, I have two questions that I ask all of my guests the first one is tell me about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year

Meg: 54:48

It's been very difficult to read in the past year for certain, but I would say that I actually go back to fiction and my, one of my favorite books is, um, Maya Angelou, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings. Having those narratives, having those stories of other people's experience is so important. It increases empathy. And I'm very privileged because I hear people's stories every day. And there are so many similarities in our lives. But most of us, you know, we don't sit in a consultation room, but by reading. Other people's, and whether it is fiction or non fiction, it helps to normalize our own experience. And when we feel like we're not, we're not this odd one out, it helps to be able to again, build that sense of belonging, that sense of validation. And to really think that, you know, we all go through some very, very difficult times.

Steph: 56:02

Yeah, like so kind of taking other people's perspectives.

Meg: 56:06

Absolutely.

Steph: 56:07

I love that. Um, okay. Final question. What is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Meg: 56:14

So the piece of advice that has really stuck with me is to Choose curiosity over criticism. So, again, like, like we talked about, it's so easy to be self critical. Take a step back and, I'm a cat lover. So, I, I have a big ginger floof ball. And I think, you know, what would Ginge do? What, what would, what would, you know, how would he approach this? Because he's very, very curious and he's definitely not self critical. Choose curiosity.

Steph: 56:48

I love that. I think that's such good advice. And again, so hard to follow, but if we can remember that it's just so useful. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been a really enlightening and engaging, and I hope that all of our listeners will check out your book, um, and it's new us release for those who are in the U S um, and everywhere else in the world that it's available. So that's great news.

Meg: 57:15

thank you so much Steph. I really enjoyed this conversation and um, also your insights too. I always, I always feel like I learn so much more from others than anyone would ever learn from me.

Steph: 57:28

Me too. So thank you.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:32

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify