When to Quit Your Job & How to Leave Well with Enneagram 8, Naomi Hattaway

I'll speak directly to the listener. You're more than your work, and you also have so much ahead of you that you can't see yet. And so if you've gotten to the point where your job is no longer tenable, and you've done everything you can do or want to do, because I don't think we also have to always do Everything in our power to try and make a workplace better. Workplaces are systems and they're much bigger than we are. Tend to yourself first, I think is my biggest piece of advice. And then just have a moment to think what imprint do you want to have had as you leave?

Hello, and welcome back to any gram in real life, a podcast where we explore how to apply or Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host Steph Barron hall. And on this week's episode, I'm meeting with Naomi Haddaway. Naomi is a CEO of eighth and home, a consulting practice that combines affordable housing and homelessness prevention work with the power of leaving well, leaving well is a practice that Naomi has developed and it's really for individuals, organizations, and boards and periods of transition. Naomi's practice of leadership and implementation of the living well concept combined strategic visioning, organizational development and community care. She's delivers a deep commitment to equitable practices, a willingness to have tough conversations, strong project management and facilitation skills and compassion and generosity to every interaction and facet of her work. After living across the U S her family moved overseas to India, where she learned to thrive in the midst of chaos. Following one year in Singapore, they moved back to the U S and have traipse their way through Florida, Virginia, Ohio, and Nebraska. And now back to Florida. Naomi is an eight with a seven wing. And her love languages are accountability tattoos and a really good playlist. So on today's episode, I think you're really going to love hearing from Naomi. She talks a lot about her journey of self discovery and where she came from and how her origin story really plays into how her she shows up in the world in her Enneagram type. We talk about vulnerability versus transparency in aids. What is the concept of leaving well, grief and loss as part of the transition and then we discuss the Enneagram types in a workplace transition as well. So she also has developed this quiz. And if you're like me, which I know a lot of you are, we love quizzes. We love to read. And learn about these different, you know, personality aspects and in archetypes. So Naomi has developed her own, which is like a workplace transition archetype concept. And you'll hear a lot from Naomi today about how she's developed these archetypes and just her past experience in working with various nonprofits and how she kind of thinks about workplace transitions, whether that's, a succession plan within an organization. Or just thinking about, okay, people will eventually leave and how do we make sure that they leave well and how do we set ourselves and our employees up for success in the best way possible. And because, you know, eight and three gets to talking, we're talking about how to make this really practical. So Naomi's also going to give you a few tips. If you are considering leaving your job, if you're considering changing things within your current workplace. anything like that? She has some really great tips for us, and she also has shared her archetype quiz. And a lot of the work that I do within organizations, I hear. This, trepidation or, or this real fear around discussing transitions, discussing. Okay. What what's next for me? What's next in my career or what's next? for me, maybe I'll leave this organization. And it's definitely something in our culture, especially, corporate America, for a lot of reasons, we keep it under wraps Naomi's perspective is really refreshing and helpful because it's not only bringing that into the light, but also discussing different ways of approaching this topic. That help everyone feel a little bit better, a little bit more comfortable, a little bit more stable as they are considering these transitions. And for a lot of us, our parents' generation said, I'm going to get this job and never, ever leave. But for most of us, people who are moving up in their careers are often moving, from opportunity to opportunity. And some of us really like that change and others of us don't, but it is kind of the reality of life. So whether you're in a transition that you've chosen, like you've chosen to change things, or you were recently laid off or something else is happening, that's really making your workplace untenable. I think this conversation will be really helpful for any of those spheres. And as a special guest to our podcast, listeners, Naomi also shared a special PDF guide for you that is totally free. You'll find that in the show notes as well. and it's a countdown to leaving well. And so what this means is. She's basically asking you how much time do you have? Sometimes we think. Everything is really terrible and toxic. And I have to get out of here ASAP, or I recently was laid off. So I didn't really get to choose how much time I have, or you might be thinking, okay, I know that there's a transition in my future. I know that I'm going to change jobs or take a different step in my career in the future. this is really a guide to help you understand how much time you really have, before you reached that point of burnout, which is what we don't want. So it's a preemptive way for you to navigate that and then what to do. So you can find that guide in the show notes. And the link is called countdown to leaving. And you can also hear me on Naomi's podcasts in the near future. And her podcast is called leaving well, so find that wherever you listen to your podcasts. Again, those are linked in the show notes, or you can just find it@naomihaddaway.com. slash quiz. And without further ado, here's my conversation with Naomi Hattaway.

Well, Naomi, welcome to the podcast. Thanks, Steph. I'm really excited to be here. I've listened to your podcast for quite a while, and so it's a joy to be on the other side and be a guest. Thank you so much for listening and that's delightful. And now you're really seeing behind the scenes because I'll just let our listeners in that this is the third time we've tried to start recording and we keep having technical errors. So we're here, we're doing this. wE are committed. We are committed. Thanks so much for your patience. And just as we've been discussing, a couple of times now you love these different. Typologies and archetypes and things, and I do as well. Obviously, that's why I love the Enneagram, and you've even created one of your own, which I'm excited to talk about later. But first, I'd love to hear an intro into you, your background, your Enneagram type, all that good stuff. Yeah, so I feel like I have been perpetually on a search to find new ways to understand myself better. I think that it is the best way to help those who love me relate to me and with me better if I know myself. And so the Enneagram is definitely one of those tools that I love to use for myself. I was a little bit about myself. I was born in the 70s to a black dad and a white mom. And the timing of it is. It's really important, I think, because it was just seven years before Loving v. Virginia was passed, which is legislation that allowed someone who is non white to marry someone who is white, and it's just really impactful for me, I think, because it says a lot about how I was raised in a culture that it was new being one of very few mixed biracial kids also we homeschooled before it was legal in Nebraska, and so all those things combined just Has reminded me on a regular basis of how important it is to know the backgrounds and know how other people show up to a space. And I discovered Enneagram in 2006. I think I've thought about that a lot, and I think it was around 2006. And it was from Chris Huertz, who is from Omaha, Nebraska, which is where I was born and raised. And then I since then found Ryan from Sleeping At Last, and Listen to his incredible Enneagram based songs and both reading one of Chris's books and then hearing Ryan's song, I was like, Oh, it hit like in my gut I'm an eight wing seven. And it was just so joyful to be able to for the first time, make sense of who I am and why. Yeah. And also the eight wing seven concept, sometimes it's called like the maverick. And hearing the threads of that thread. Even your early life that I'm like, Oh yes, this comes together. Yeah, and I think it's so interesting, too, because, like, like we had talked about, I love assessments. I love personality stuff, and I've taken other things. You could name one, and I could tell you what I am but what I found resonant about Enneagram was that it was, it helped me understand not only how I parent it helped me understand how I responded to my experience of having been parented And it also just helped normalize my desire for control and my demand for justice and it felt really good and almost warm to just know like, oh, I'm not weird and there's nothing wrong with me. This is just how I made and what I meant to be. So I love Enneagram. Yeah. I love that you mentioned that, that sense of comfort that you got from it, because I think especially women, like people socialize as women in our society being eights can be really like, Oh, there is something wrong with me. Like, why am I like this? And everybody else seems to be able to like, quote unquote, go with the flow. And I care so much that I can't do that. And so that's just been really interesting to see that theme come up. Yeah. I also think it impacted me in kind of that it felt warm. Way because I had always wondered why it was hard for me to make and keep friends or have relationships that were equal in how we interacted with each other. And I think one of the things that I learned about myself and I continue to learn about myself as an aid is when I pour myself into something, it's usually justice or equity related and other people who are in that work. It's taxing and I tend to be on the front lines of something or I tend to be the voice that's speaking up or I tend to be the first one in the room. And that doesn't leave a lot of energy or space for relationships or even for people to know how to interact with me. So, I've never. Not loved my drive or I've never not, I've never been embarrassed about my desire to impact and all those things, but Enneagram and finding out that eight was my type made it all come full circle. How did you figure it out? What, like, what was the light bulb moment? So of course I took the profile, I did all the questions and eight and seven were the ones that kind of rose to the top. But then I started doing some reading just to make sure I wanted to understand the other types and every single thing pointed to eight. Every single thing. I actually even have a tattoo of an octopus on my arm because I think octopus are probably the animal that represents eight from their fierceness and their strength against all odds. So yeah, everything is always pointed to eight. I've never questioned that I was an eight. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. That's something I appreciate about eights. Like when I teach in corporate spaces, I love starting with type eight one because eights are normally like yeah, it's, it is, it's me. And I love that a lot of the time, eights are willing to say, actually, that doesn't resonate. That really doesn't fit, which is so good because in a corporate space, I don't want people to feel like they're not going to be heard. And so I like that aides are willing to push back and like set that template so that other types might feel a little bit more comfortable to say, I actually don't understand what you said or that, that thing that you said doesn't really apply to me. Can we talk about that? Yeah. And I love that quality that aides have. Yeah. And I've also been wondering lately, I don't know this to be true. You can help us talk through this around the vulnerability and willingness to say, I don't know because that also feels like a really good template that I think a lot of aides might have to be able to set the stage for others to say, okay, so if she said it's okay that she doesn't know, or if she's being vulnerable to share this thing maybe others can, especially in the workplace. I think that's really important. Yeah, I always make this distinction between vulnerability and transparency. And I think AIDS are very transparent. And they're not going to be like, oh yeah, I know everything when they don't. Depending on the subtype I work a lot with subtypes versus the wings and depending on the subtype, they have different responses to that. But like, Yeah, I think they're definitely willing to be transparent. I love that differentiation between transparency and vulnerability. That's really good. Yeah. So I want to hear a little bit about your career and leaving well, what is leaving well to you and what does that mean? Yeah we have lived all over the place. I grew up in Nebraska and then when I met my husband, we've lived in a couple of different places and then moved our family to India. We spent three years there and then we lived in Singapore for a year. And while we were overseas, I learned about the concept of leaving well from an expat posting kind of mentality. A lot of military folks, a lot of missionaries use it as well. And the idea is that you Have to practice on purpose, leaving a place. So that your next posting you can go into it at your best. So you think about military missionaries, expat folks, they're constantly on the move. And if they didn't process where they had just left, you can imagine they would enter the new space, the new workplace, the new mission, the new school, whatever, and kind of a. Messy way. And so I learned about it then. And we practice that as a family. Every time we moved, I then got my real estate license when we moved back to the States. And I use that with our clients as well, helping them say goodbye to the old house, the old location so that they could start the new place. Then fast forward to working in the nonprofit space in kind of the affordable housing realm. And I just started being bombarded with the reality that we are not that Leaving well in the workplace. We are trading really tired, broken, exhausted, burnt out people from one organization to the next. And that's, I think, true, whether it's corporate nonprofit, what have you. And I had an opportunity to practice leaving well myself. I resigned from a really great position. I was named the successor to the executive director and on paper it looked really good, but in reality, none of the things that should have been done for me to actually be the successor were put into place. And in fact, this was gosh, at this point, six years ago, and that executive director is still the executive director. And so I left and I left out and I left well. And so I started getting people asking. What did you do? How did you do that? Can you teach me more about it? And so at the beginning of this year, at the beginning of 2023, I started more actively promoting the work of Leaving working with clients, individuals, and organizations to embed the practice. So I either work with individuals who are actively leaving who know that they need to go and they would like support in the process. I also work with individuals who have an inkling that they need to go and the light bulb here is that about 70 percent of folks I work with who have an inkling that they need to go don't actually end up going. They make other changes or have really important conversations. And then I also work with organizations who are either in firefighting mode and have had a big transition or they, my favorite types of organizational clients is when they come and they want to be preventative and proactive care. I'm so curious to hear a little bit more about that, but can you start by just painting the picture of what it was like and just tell us a little bit more of the story of what it was like to leave out loud. What does that mean? What did that look like? Yeah, so I think that for my experience in a nonprofit, especially a nonprofit who is actively serving a community, we tend to get so wrapped up in the work that our needs don't matter anymore, or that the needs of our team don't matter because we need to serve community. And so there was some misalignment of values for myself, there was some misalignment of What we deemed as outcomes that had success attached to them, and I started pulling at the thread of who are we actually serving with the work that we're doing? Are we serving homeowners that are in the community? Or are we serving our donors? Are we serving homeowners? Are we serving our board? And those started being really sticky conversations and one that I started having my team work towards Resolving and ones that the executive leadership team didn't quite agree with. And so then when it came time to have me named as a successor and part of the strategic plan for when the executive director would leave, I started bringing up then we need to change these things. We need to stop having these silly practices that were quite inequitable and quite they're putting the homeowners in a place where they had to almost say, thank you for the work that we were doing. And it didn't. It didn't quite land. I was always hushed and we'll talk about that later or what have you. And so my leaving out loud is that when I resigned, I wrote communication, which is super important during the transition plan to have communication that can go external and internal. But it said why I was leaving. The internal messaging to the executive team was very clear about why the values no longer aligned with where I wanted to take the work and I spelled out the things that I really felt strongly needed to change. In the end, the board got told. The kind of condensed version that I had other things to prioritize and that I was, leaving the team in a good place. But my team knew why and I had an opportunity to meet with several of our key donors at the time and they also knew why. And, I'll never know what impact that may or may not have had, but it was the right thing for me to do to leave out loud in that way. Yeah. Yeah. And I think to me when I hear that story, it takes such courage to do that. I could imagine as an eight, I'm not saying you weren't shaking in your boots at all, but like, I can imagine as an eight, that might be a little bit more of an approachable thing to do. And I think it's cool that you're also empowering other people to learn how to do that well and to have emotional boundaries that, us heart types over here need to be able to do that. Not just heart types that struggle with that. It's like, it can be really hard and it can be hard to think about how are people going to experience this. And but you have like that sense of morality and your personal ethics in that as well. aNd I think going to your comment about as an aid, it might have been a little easier. I think that there's something to be said about connecting with why we said yes to the job or the project or the volunteer role in the first place, because this isn't just jobs. This is if you have a volunteer role or if you serve on a board of directors. If something doesn't feel right, or if you're burnt out, or you're just done, or if there's something more nefarious going on and there's actual harm that's being perpetrated, like that also is a real piece of what happens in the workplace, go back to why you said yes in the first place. And sometimes that also will help gird you with the courage that you need. It also helps, I think, put up some really strong riverbanks around like, oh yeah, this is why I said yes, and this is how far we are away from. What this could be or should be. The other thing I would say for folks who it might, if you're listening and you're thinking, there's no way on earth I would ever tell the truth about why I was leaving, even if it doesn't stick in the way that you meant it to, there is a lasting legacy that can stay with you. Your words and the way that you leave, even if it only is with the HR department, or even if it's only with your manager, your direct report it will stick with them and it will, the ripple effect can be there and it doesn't have to be as out loud as I did it, it could be louder than I did it but I really always encourage people to say their truth as they're leaving even if it they're leaving. Even if they're told that there's nothing that could be done or if they're shushed because of it. I think it's important. Yeah. Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. So as you've been working with different people, whether as a coach or even like working in these corporate spaces, I'm curious if you've noticed any themes, if people's like Enneagram types or anything, if you notice themes along those lines or in general, how does the Enneagram help you provide that framework? Because you're navigating times of change, but also grief as you talk about. Yeah, how does it help? Yeah, grief and loss are probably the two biggest things that are surprised to people when we start talking about leaving well and workplace transitions. I think the first thing that we always start when we talk about this is that it's a reality that people leave. Not a single person I've ever worked with is in the same job that they started with at 16, 18 years old. And so first, just having that be the laid foundation that people leave, it's a reality. There's a great book by Dr. Henry Cloud called Necessary Endings, and I encourage everyone that I work with to read it. I also encourage people to read Your Caring Heart by Dr. Jaya Jhan because it really brings in, while he doesn't talk about the Enneagram, it brings in the reality of knowing ourselves, self awareness, and knowing how to relate to each other. So I think that The Enneagram can be so helpful and maybe we could talk about it from like a transition plan. So say an organization is ready to talk about this proactively and they want to build a transition plan. I think that there are key things that each type could bring. And then I would love your feedback too, because Enneagram more than I do. I think type eights are, we'll start there because you like starting there. Are so great when it comes to implementing the plan. Like, I think the caution, though, is not to let AIDS railroad the process to let others participate in the planning. But I think even thinking about how to make sure there's equity and fair treatment in the transition plan, AIDS would be really great to bring along. I think NINES Might be the ones that struggle the most with workplace transitions and I feel like maybe bring, being brought in early in the process to help with harmony and bringing peace and maybe even with team engagement. I'm thinking from a transition plan standpoint. I don't know if what if you have feedback on eights and nines there. No, I think that makes a lot of sense. Okay, I'll keep going. Type ones. I love type ones. I think they're so thoughtful and intentional. And I think carrying out the transition plan. So when I talk about transition plan, I'm thinking about an organization who doesn't have an active leaving happening. And so they're trying to think ahead of time. So that would include knowledge transfer, https: otter. ai You and I would be doing some collaboration to make sure I understood what your role and your process and your workflow was, and then we would swap and then I would do my documentation. Another piece of knowledge transfer that's really important is making sure that folks know who to contact, uh, for the big pieces and the little pieces of the organization. I also think that going back to number, to types, I think type twos Would be really helpful in not that there's ever a getting back to normal after a disruptive change in the workplace, but type twos could bring in the thoughtfulness and the care and the reminders of how everyone might be feeling through it. And I think type threes. What would you say, Steph? Would type threes be helpful in reminding people to slow down? Acknowledging emotions? No. No? I think we're bad at that. I think that threes tend to be really impatient. I'm trying to think of... Like the last time I left a job this isn't the, like the last time, but I spent a lot of time my last few weeks training my manager, how to do all of the stuff that I was doing. So I think that I think threes do make good trainers. And as long as they can like slow down and be a little bit more patient they can they can be good trainers for people who are going to be staying because they really are like, I want you to be successful. So I think that can be a good thing. I do remember being impatient in the moment of like, why do you not know how to do all of this? But it is what it is. Yeah, especially I think during like training, especially if you've already said it once and how to do it, like, why are we doing this again? I Think that fours I have a kiddo that's a four and she's always so good about understanding how, like for her, it's always like, where does the abandonment come in? Where is the fear coming in? And I think she always. Has a hard time not making things personal, and so that would be an opportunity, maybe not as much in a realm of helping with the transition plan, but just if you're a four and you're going through a workplace transition, realizing that as a stayer, especially if you're one that is staying identifying opportunities to not feel that it's personal because it's so hard. It's so hard, especially with workplace relationships and friendships. I think that type fives I would want as like right hand for technical expertise and like thinking through the logistics of it. I don't know what you would say about fives there. Yeah, I definitely think, having a deep. Level of expertise. They can have like this encyclopedic type knowledge of everything because they want to be experts in everything. It could be useful for five to actually have some way to like codify that knowledge that it's not just living in their minds, but having some sort of bank, or place for it to be. Yeah. And then I think of sixes as like, I, I'm married to a six and I have another kiddo who's a six and I always think they're so good at like the watch outs. Like this might be where something goes wrong. And so flipping that into reviewing the transition plan and looking for holes and looking for what might have been missed might be a really good spot for a six. And then sevens, I feel like would be so incredible from a normalization of like, Transition happens, change happens. Like how can we bring the joy, which is part of leaving well is navigating change and bringing joy into it. So I dunno, that's a kind of a quick run through, but yeah. Yeah. I think that's really helpful. And I think thinking from like thinking about people who are leaving, I was also thinking that maybe nines and ones might have a hard time. I think nines. Maybe wouldn't probably like let their frustration boil over, but they might be a little bit more curt than they normally would be and then feel really guilty about that. And I think ones might have a hard time because they might be leaving because they're so frustrated that things aren't improving. They have a hard time not letting their frustration boil over. And then the other thing is that I do think if threes are the ones leaving, they're going to be like, Oh, this is your mess now. Like y'all figure it out, but I think six is actually like, if they are going to be the ones leaving, they have the hardest time. That's what I regularly see is when I go into an organization and I see people who've been there for years and years, it's normally a six or, maybe a coaching client who comes in, who's like, Oh my gosh, I'm in this job and it's soul sucking. But. I can't get myself to leave. There's sixes. Interesting. Because they just don't know. Like, they're like I don't know what's next. I don't know what's out there. Yeah. Yeah. You're married to a six, yes. We're having career conversations with both my husband and the middle child who is a six, and it's for as an eight. I'm like, just do it. Just jump. Just see what's out there. It'll come your way. Yeah. Yeah. And they're like, what do you mean Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Thanks so much for running through those. I think that's really useful. I'm curious if you can share a little bit more about your archetypes and cause I think that there is probably some overlap and then some areas where it's not so much overlapping with the Enneagram and how you develop those and how you see them being really useful for people. Yeah, so I think it would be interesting to actually go into my quiz a second time and do some more research to add Enneagram as an archetype foundation. I built the quiz on the disk archetype because, or the disk profile, because that felt to me the most similar in terms of thinking about like corporate information Yeah, that's good. Mindset or corporate profile or work profile. And so there's the D, the I, the S, and the C. And so I did a lot of research into those different profile archetypes and like what they would do in different situations. And then it's hard with a quiz. Let's be honest. There's like seven questions. And in the seven questions, there's four answer possibilities that you can choose from. And then there's four archetypes for leaving well that match the disc. So there's the transition trailblazer, which matches the D in disc, which is very much an eight. Those transition trailblazer are usually the people trailblazers are usually folks that don't mind change and actually thrive on change. Or if they don't thrive on change, they are able to assess change and kind of just go at it with a methodical strategic way of handling it. Then after the transition trailblazer, there's the change champion. Change champions are also very similar to transition trailblazers. They take it and they're like, if this is what's going to happen, let's make the best of it. Let's not squander opportunities to do it. Really dwell on why it happened. Let's just move forward and make this the best. It can be the change. Custodian is representative of the sea and disc and they are really caretakers of legacy their caretakers of the mission, their caretakers to make sure that nothing's lost in translation and in the transition. And then the steadfast stabilize stabilizer is really someone who. Focuses on the humans at the behest of the transition, making sure that things are not forgotten, making sure that there's equity in the processes. And they're the ones that are probably planning the potluck before someone leaves, they're probably planning to get together afterwards to make sure that the stayers all can keep the relationships going. So that's a really high level. But as someone takes the quiz, there's a page for everyone and then a little video and some more information about the different archetypes. Yeah. What I like about that is that you can see how each of them has its own role, like how each of them brings some strengths. Kind of like we went through the Enneagram types. It's interesting whenever I have taken DISC in the past, I always got high I and D, though I'm not really like a big networker. Like I'm not somebody who like goes to networking events and hands out my card. Though in the past few years, a lot of things have happened in my day to day life where even when I took an Enneagram assessment before seven and eight were like right up top. And now they've, especially eight has moved down significantly. But I got changed custodian and strategists. So that was really interesting and I can see it in some ways and then in other ways my husband was like, I don't know if that's you when he heard detail oriented, he was like well, and I think there's something to be said too about, like I, when I took the disc originally, I was high D and a natural, I think is natural, what they call like the secondary my eye was also very high. My D was my natural and my eye was something that I had like. Bent myself into so that I was the most palatable and I think about, it depends a lot. I think about what your work experience has been in the past. What have you been asked to do? What have you been asked to come outside of who you are in order to fulfill the mission or to get the work done? And so I think that however, our tolerance is set as we are navigating a workplace transition can also have a lot to do with how we react to it. And the questions are also They're lighthearted on purpose. But the beautiful thing I think about a quiz is then being able to, especially in a workplace environment, in a corporate setting, be able to have people talk to each other about their results and say like, what didn't match for you? What did match? And then being able to take that to help plan and write, say a transition plan or learn how to work better together. Yeah. Cause what it really pinpointed for me, that is really true is like the overthinking overanalyzing aspect. aNd. If I'm thinking transition plans for not necessarily in my current role, but like, even software that I want to think about changing, I really do overthink it. I really do think about all the minutiae. I'm like, Oh, what integrations does it have? And like, there's nothing that's perfect, right? Like there, there are always imperfections. And I do sometimes get frustrated with that. I'm like, Why can't there be just like one perfect course platform or one perfect podcasting platform? And it just doesn't exist for anyone, I think. Yeah. And so my, as a transition trailblazer, if you use that same like podcast platform or what have you. I'm like, let's just try it. Let's try it. And when it doesn't work, then we'll find something else to do. And so that's another way that it can be really powerful to know what your archetype is, because then you can also seek out someone maybe who has a different archetype to support whatever that is. So when I looked for someone to support my team, I needed someone that was going to be an overanalyzer, because I. Don't like I just jump in. Yeah, it's helpful to have people that can round you out. Yeah. I think if you'll listen to them. Yeah that's true. That's true. No I totally get that. And I feel like in the past, I've also done a thing where I'm just like I'm just going to try them all and never actually like asking anyone who is more of an overanalyzer. And then I was like, oh my gosh, now I'm spinning. Cause I've been jumping and jumping and now I'm spinning, yeah. Yeah. So that's really interesting. Okay. So what is the best use case you think for this tool? Like, is it for teams who are planning that, that transition plan or the succession planning, or is it for individuals who are like, I really want to leave my job and I need to know what to do? Yeah. I think there's some practical advice that I would give both individuals or organizations and knowing what archetype you are is only part of it. I think the more important thing is to acknowledge that transitions happen and that you're going to end up being in the middle of one in the future if you're not in one now for an individual. If the transition's their own, I've got a couple of recommendations that I really think help remarkably, and some people think this is woo, but the first thing I always ask people to do is to start tracking their worthy work, and this could be on a notes app or a journal, what have you and it's an opportunity to jot down things that you've contributed. And it can be in the workplace. It can be in your friend group. It can be whatever. It can also be really small things. It can be things like when you had a new hire and you told them like to make sure that the door doesn't stick when they go out for lunch break because then they can't get back in. It could be finding a discount code to save department heads some money. Can also be something as simple as introducing people to each other. I think we get so tied up in the daily business of work that we forget the things that we've contributed. So it's always a good idea just to stop for a moment and jot down some worthy work moments. We talked about this a little bit before, but I think it's also really important to go back to your job description and what you said yes to in the first place. That's also really helpful. To remind yourself if there was something you were so excited to do and have not been able to do yet. That's a really beautiful project to focus on in your final weeks or months at a job. And then a third thing is to think about the impact of the stairs and what is it that you can do To get a little bit out of your own head and into your legacy and the imprint that you leave behind when it thinks about when you think about knowledge or documenting processes and ways to make the continuation of the work more seamless. And then I think for organizations, this is the big, really the biggest bulk of the responsibility. Anyone who has leadership responsibilities or decision making in their role, please be more proactive about workplace transitions. They happen. All of the time and understanding, like I've said that people leave preventative practices in the workplace. Also don't mean that more people will want to leave. People think that if they talk about it, if they talk about leaving that more people want to go. And so a couple of really practical tips for those. With decision making power is to hold stay interviews. So instead of just waiting for an exit interview, have your people come in once or twice a year. And if you're really bold, have them do a resume review with you. Two things that it does is it helps them understand that you're not just wanting them for the work that they bring the organization, but it also helps you see what things that are on their resume that they might not be using to their full capacity which then increases engagement in the workplace. Those were just a couple of practical tips that I would give to people who are in the process of transition. Yeah, I love that. I love how preemptive all of this is. And I actually, that made me think of this job that I had a number of years ago where during our reviews, we would, and we'd have like, quarterly reviews as well. And we'd say like, okay, what are you really interested in? What are you curious on? We basically like encouraged all of our employees to have some sort of like passion project. Yes. And it was so cool. And it's been really awesome to see the employees from that organization, like get their dream jobs, like going and working as like an animator for like a major film company and like these different things. Because. Yeah. I mean that I started a business from out of that job as well. Like, it's just like such a cool experience. And I think it just keeps us vibrant a little bit. Maybe I'm speaking from somebody who always has a side hustle. I'm sorry, but I think. That it doesn't have to be a side hustle. It can be a work thing. It can be volunteering. It can be anything. What about our listener who is like, I'm so burned out. I'm just going to burn this place down. Like they didn't do this in advance. What advice do you have for them in this moment? And then how can they. Not do that again in the future. Yeah, I'll give you something that you can link in the show notes. It's a how much time do you have resource and it's really practical. It's I'll share my advice, but the practicalness of this document is it's like if you have 24 hours and you need to just burn the place down and leave or for those that are fired because that's another workplace transition. We haven't talked about redundancy or being laid off or being fired. It goes through some practical things. The one thing I would say is if you are planning to quit your job or if you are fired or let go, make sure that you prioritize food and caring for yourself. It can be really disorienting to have a job all of a sudden shift away from you. The other thing I would recommend is if you have little people that you live with or that are very near and dear to you. Tell them more than you think they need to know because they absorb energy and having the young people around you, kiddos or nieces or nephews or what have you, understand what's happening is really important. Okay. Real advice for someone who wants to just burn it down. We are more than our work. If you need to just bail and run, then do that. But if you have a moment and an opportunity to have a little bit of intentionality around. Leaving behind a breadcrumb trail of how to keep the work going, or if you have time to be able to finish up that project that really means a lot to you. And if that helps with what legacy you want to leave, then take the time to do that. yEah, that's such good advice because I see so many people who are like terrified to even have the conversations of like, this is what I want to improve. Because if they think if their employer gets a whiff of, they might be leaving, they're just going to get fired on the spot, basically, which I mean, I've seen it happen, and then I think organizations forget when they're doing like big layoffs, like the mental health tool that takes on the people who are left behind, especially when there's literally no conversation. Yeah. And I understand for HR purposes, there can't always be conversation. I've been on that side of the laying off or like the letting go table of saying I, there's nothing I can say. But it's still very difficult and it creates so much instability. It really does. Yeah. I've seen a couple of companies lately, and I think this is really wise. If it's possible, they created a Directory of sorts of people that were impacted by layoffs, and it had all of their skill sets, the things that they most recommend them for. And then they posted it on LinkedIn. And they said, we, these layoffs were not avoidable, but we want to make sure that we do everything we can to make sure that everyone lands in their next spot. And that I thought was really bold. They also gave Instacart and DoorDash gift cards saying, We know this is terrible and we want to make sure that at least dinner is a little bit easier for the next couple of nights. And that just felt also really human centered. That's really useful. Really helpful. I really appreciate you sharing that. I have Two more closing questions, but First, tell us where people can find you and they can connect with your work because I'm sure that so many of us are in this space of like being like, Oh what is my purpose? And what is the meaning? And just wanting to excavate that, even if we're not in a workplace transition. Yeah, I think the first thing I would recommend is the podcast, the Leaving Well podcast. You can find anywhere that you listen to this and your other favorite podcasts. So far in season one, we've been having really great conversations with folks that have experienced change transition and grief and loss. And so it's a wide exploration with different people and different scenarios of their stories. Season two, which will be launching early next year, will be. Me bringing the framework of leaving well into the pod. So that will be exciting. And then the archetype quiz that we talked about, you can find at Naomi had a way. com forward slash quiz. Okay, perfect. Yeah. I'll link all of that in the show notes and. Like I said, even if we're not in a workplace transition, we are the people who love the archetype quizzes. So perfect audience here for this. Okay. Final two questions. Tell me about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year. So I'm a bookie bookish person. So one book is not possible stuff. I would say the book I reference all the time is The Power of Onlyness by Nilofer Merchant. It's a beautiful way to find, as she says, the place where you can only stand to make your dent in the world. And I love it. I refer to it all the time. The book that I have read this year that has been so helpful is called Leading for Justice, and it's by a woman named Rita Seaver, and she addresses equity and justice from an HR perspective, which has been really fascinating. She's really good. She also has another book called Supervision Matters. And then I re I referenced this earlier, but I love Your Caring Heart by Dr. Jaya Jhan. For anyone who is frontline staff in social services doing any kind of things that Involve humans. It's a beautiful quick read and something that you'll flip back to often. Okay. I love that. Okay. Perfect. Finally, what is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you? So you might like this as a three. My grandpa used to always say, slow down. And he would say it all the time and for every single thing. Like if we were having, if we were having a problem, he would say slow down and think about what you need to do. We would climb trees all the time and we couldn't get down. And we'd be like, grandpa, can you help us? And he was like, slow down. And that it always works. It always works. The advice has never steered me wrong. Yeah. That's such good advice. It's funny because sometimes I'm like, I'm moving slow as molasses, but then when I actually think about it, it's like, mentally, I'm like, I need to figure out the brand messaging for my business and do it by the end of the day. ANd like just this year, I had this realization of like, people do this for months and years. Like, it's okay if it takes me a long time and it's okay if I kind of part things out a little bit. Like I, I, um, published a new website this year. And I was like, Oh my gosh, like everything is not quite perfect yet. And I was like, all right we're just going to push this, because I put so much pressure on myself. We do that so much. We do. We do. I think there's something to be said too about. There's a beauty in asking others opinions and asking for others input. And sometimes there's beauty in just shipping and pushing something out and then getting feedback on the other end. But I think you have to pause a little bit at least to know, okay, what is the thing that I'm going to choose in this moment? Yeah. Yeah. And we didn't even have a chance to talk about values and how values come into all of it, but slowing down and pausing also is an opportunity to reconnect and make sure that you're with your values, which is another. Really great tool to use when thinking about making job decisions. Yeah. Oh, we could just go on and on. But thank you so much for joining me for this episode. It's been really great to chat with you. And I think really useful for our listeners too. Thanks for having me, Steph. Of course.

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