How to Use the Enneagram in Your Marriage with Christa Hardin of Enneagram + Marriage

Christa Hardin: 1:30

now we can make more progress a lot more in our conflict than we ever could. And that's what made us really fall in love with the Enneagram was we were like, okay, not only do I see your core wounds, but I see your style and that style of living. is costing us when I won't understand it, lean into it a little bit, just hear it. And it's so different versus, I used to feel so judged when my husband would approach me with the five senses view as a type one. And now I feel like. Oh, I understand why he does this. He's got a harsh inner critic and he's very sensitive to his environment. And so it's rolls off differently when you know your spouse doesn't mean it maliciously.

Steph Barron Hall: 2:21

Hello, and welcome to any gram in real life, a podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host Steph Barron hall. And today I am talking all about any Grimm and marriage with the host of the podcast. Enneagram and marriage, Krista harden. Christa has a background in clinical psychology, as well as counseling. And she's also a relationship expert and author Krista has been working with and researching marriages for two decades, providing hope for couples who are struggling to find their light, love, and mission together. And any season of a relationship, her brand new book is called the And marriage, you are guy to thriving together and your unique pairing. And it's out now with baker books and I've placed a link in the show notes, but we also discuss it throughout the podcast today. We talk a little bit about how she got started, how, she started using her any gram understanding and. And really growing her Enneagram knowledge as she was also building her. counseling practice and she talks about replacing some of the more clinical assessments that she would use, with the Enneagram, especially in couples work, cause in couple's work. It's really talking about the communication patterns and that sort of thing. Um, now if you don't listen to the Instagram in marriage podcast, it's a great one. I was actually on. Uh, for a two-part series last year with Krista, and we talked all about the Enneagram and communication. Um, so go check that out. I'll link it up in the show notes. But on today's podcast episode of this podcast. We're talking about kind of why we like the Instagram beyond the typology, like the fun typology surface level aspects, um, using the integration with your partner and any grand perspective in therapy. An overview of the strengths and pitfalls of each type in a relationship. And then Chris's perspective on typing kids. Cause she talks a lot about her kids and, their types as well. And then she shares one of the tips from her book. And in this episode she just picked type one and type five together. But in her book, she actually has each tight pairing listed out. So it's all about the strengths, the pitfalls, and some different practices or tips for each of the types. So she shares one of those with us and you can grab her book and the links in the show notes. And of course, Christa is a type seven, so she brings a lot of fun energy to this conversation. So I hope you really enjoy this podcast and feel free to check it out on YouTube as well. If you'd like to watch us while you listen. Without further to here's Krista harden. Well, hi, Krista. Welcome to the podcast.

Christa Hardin: 4:49

Thank you so much staff. I'm so glad to be here with you.

Steph Barron Hall: 4:53

Yeah, of course. I had such fun on your podcast talking. We did a two part episode about communication and everything. That was really fun. So I'm glad that you're here and we can talk with you about your new book.

Christa Hardin: 5:07

Thank you so much. You are such a gift to our audience. You have such expertise and I'm so glad to be here.

Steph Barron Hall: 5:13

Thank you. Great. So I would love to start off by hearing a little bit about your background and your introduction to the Enneagram. Of course, I did read a little bit about it in your book. But I'd love to hear from your perspective, how that kind of got started.

Christa Hardin: 5:30

Well, I started, I actually wrote this couple today to remind them of it. And I said, do you guys, my first Enneagram couple want to get a copy of my book? Because I'm so touched by the fact that when I first learned of the Enneagram and began to incorporate it into my couple's work, which I'd been doing for already 12 or 13 years this first couple was so brave to take this on with me. It was a type three and a type nine in a marriage, and they were just in dire straits. And so I had a lot of tools, but I needed something cohesive that would dig deeper a little quicker. They were in a very desperate place. And I said, I have just really understood this tool at a deeper level. I haven't tried it with my clients yet. Would you be willing to be my Guinea pigs? And they were so game. And they got so healthy. They're still together today, about seven or eight years later. And it is just a joy that we got to dig deep. As you and your audience know, this tool helps us to dive so much deeper, so much faster. So that was what we needed. And of course, we're still diving deep with it because it has lots of layers.

Steph Barron Hall: 6:37

Yeah, of course it does. So then how were you able to find your type?

Christa Hardin: 6:43

Well, with Hyatt's test. Of course, many of your listeners probably know he's an executive coach out there. And when Ian Cron's book first came out, Michael Hyatt was somebody I followed and he had Ian's test. And so I heard I was a seven right away from the test. And then I abandoned it because I was already doing psychological assessments. And this just didn't appear to be a deep test. I was like, Oh, okay, cool. Enthusiast, joyful, something to that effect. And then my friend who is the type four therapist said, Krista. I really recommend for your couple's work that you take a deeper dive. And of course, her being a type 4, she knows I'm gonna push forward, futuristic, she sees me as very intellectual, but she's a really deep, rich therapist. Somebody that I'm like, oh my gosh, like everyone should have you as their therapist. And so when she said that, I was like, alright, I'm paying attention. So, I haven't looked away since. Because the 7, of course, as do all the 9 types, go so deep. So then I was able to see, oh my gosh, like the joy, but also the pain and the avoidance of pain. So it was just like, it stuck with me and I shared it with my husband at that point too.

Steph Barron Hall: 7:54

So it's interesting that you say that because. I have found such depth in the whole entire tool and the entire experience throughout the years, whereas at first it's like a little bit surface level, right? I took an assessment too. And I was like, Oh, the Achiever. Cool. Got it.

Christa Hardin: 8:09

Oh, that is funny.

Steph Barron Hall: 8:10

Right. And it's just been a whole process on folding what that actually looks like, what that actually means and the depth of it.

Christa Hardin: 8:19

Yes, I love that you had a similar experience where at first you didn't know what, so what drew you closer to it? Oh

Steph Barron Hall: 8:26

Really, I think that. Initially, when I looked at it, I was like, cool, I'm the achiever. Amazing. Look at me go. And then pretty soon I started reading more and I was like, oh my gosh, people can see me. And there are people who aren't fooled by this, mask. And uh, that was such an eye opener for me. And I think that I have just always had really this penchant for being like, what is wrong with me? Right. Which can sound a bit four ish or even a bit one ish at times. Cause I do have a really strong inner critic as well. But through that process, it just caused me to look deeper and to be like, I just want to figure this out and just unpuzzle everything. So that's what drove that process.

Christa Hardin: 9:12

That's really cool that you were like, I had to look and I had to do that too, where you're like, ooh, the underbelly, but then like you said, like people can see it anyway, so we might as well dig.

Steph Barron Hall: 9:24

Yeah and I think that's such an important part of the process too, beyond just the quick assessment.

Christa Hardin: 9:32

Yes, me too. I'm so glad you named that because I think there's a lot of people out there who still Look at it on a surface level and just see what we did and then walk away.

Steph Barron Hall: 9:43

What made you want to go deeper with the Enneagram with your own work?

Christa Hardin: 9:48

Well, my husband and I were really just making it in our marriage and we weren't thriving. Now compared to a lot of other couples, I guess for always, people have always seen us as thriving. We're always that couple in the center of our community. And even through those years where we didn't feel we were thriving, we always maintained that. of, especially with my husband being a one, we should be the golden couple or me rising up in my joy as a seven. I'm just happy. But together when it was just the two of us trying to really work on our stuff and our conflict, we were really butting heads. And so we would still have date nights and fun times like when we weren't having conflict. Oh my gosh, we just get along so well still to this day. But now we can make more progress a lot more in our conflict than we ever could. And that's what made us really fall in love with the Enneagram was we were like, okay, not only do I see your core wounds, but I see your style and that style of living. is costing us when I won't understand it, lean into it a little bit, just hear it. And it's so different versus, I used to feel so judged when my husband would approach me with the five senses view as a type one. And now I feel like. Oh, I understand why he does this. He's got a harsh inner critic and he's very sensitive to his environment. And so it's rolls off differently when you know your spouse doesn't mean it maliciously.

Steph Barron Hall: 11:18

you share more about what you mean about the five senses view?

Christa Hardin: 11:21

Yes. So I feel like as a ones, eights and nines as body types, they really end up with their gut instinct, just engaging a lot with the world around them. And the very tactile world around them or the smells and everything that's part of the five senses. And so when we're paired with somebody like that, they're very sensitive to everything and everyone in the environment, too, to say what's happening with you affects me, whether you're chewing, moving quickly around me in my case is a seven messy. And so all of that has affected my husband over the years. And I always was like, you are so judgy, like you need to chill. And he was always like, this is the way I'm wired. But we just didn't have words for it. And he also, by the way, didn't just say, this is the way I'm wired. That was on a good day on a bad day. He would like, I, you heard me being self righteous to him. He would be like, You're wrong. You're bad if you're not just like me. And so we really began to shame one another for our styles of engagement versus just inviting being curious. And I feel that the Enneagram gave us that like availability to say this isn't about you in a bad way. This is just about me. And the way I work, if that makes sense.

Steph Barron Hall: 12:44

yeah. What was your experience then as a seven of having to engage with that sense of pain or discomfort of having those conversations?

Christa Hardin: 12:55

It's still hard to this day, but I'm working on it. Like today we even had an engagement where I was headed off to pure bar in the morning and my husband, I ran to get my phone, not even three feet from him. And he goes, are you wearing, do you by any chance have a rose perfume or something? I was like, my Tom's deodorant is rose. And I was like, but I like, I realized where he was going with it because I know if he says that it's not going to be good So I was like, you know what? I actually just smelled it and I was like, I don't like it at all And the girls just bought us each a new deodorant and i'm just gonna tell you I like that one better I'm gonna toss this one and he goes Please. He's Oh, I love that you're on the same page. So it was so funny because I didn't care at all. And I was like, this is so different than even the way he would have said it to me. Seven, eight years ago, he probably would have been like, Oh what is that terrible smell? Why would you ever wear that? And instead we're tracking for each other where he's trying to be like sweeter. And so it didn't hit my pain. The same as it would have all those years ago. But when it does, I think I have to take a deep breath still to this day and white knuckle it a bit because I'll be like, Oh, like we're not always perfect with our Enneagram work. So we still have to pause, pray, take some time sometimes with God if you're a spiritual person to just be like, Okay, my spouse is in a tough moment right now.

Steph Barron Hall: 14:21

Yeah. Yeah. And it's always helpful to have that empathy. And also I think to have some emotional boundaries is really helpful to be like, okay, they are having a tough moment and it's not about me. That's probably one of the harder things that I've had to. continually learn, not to say I've learned it,

Christa Hardin: 14:37

yes, but it's so good that you're learning it and having friends who get it and community and Enneagram community that makes our ones or whatever type there and us to not feel ashamed. Like my teens really razzed my husband about his stuff now and he cracks up so hard because he's I can't help it. I'm sorry, but like When it's just you guys in an isolated bubble without community, it can feel like you're all alone if your spouse doesn't know what's going on with them. And they're like in that self righteous zone, whether it's you or them. Oh,

Steph Barron Hall: 15:11

Yeah. Well, and my husband has had a hell of a time figuring out his type. So that's a whole different story, but

Christa Hardin: 15:17

Oh

Steph Barron Hall: 15:17

been really interesting. Yeah. And I think one thing that I've learned, and I think this is always helpful for people who, they don't know their spouse's type or their spouse can't figure it out. Cause I, I really had to take an approach of like, I am not going to figure it out for you, um, because I could just be like, I'm going to find the answer to this puzzle. And actually that's not helpful for him or me, so it was really taking a hands off approach, but every type that he got curious about, like toyed with, we learned something interesting about our dynamic or about him. And so that was always helpful, even though the process took a really long time.

Christa Hardin: 15:55

3 goes so well with every type because you guys rise up to be awesome. So any type he could have been would be so different from the way I do. And I'm not saying I'm bad, it's just I might be a hot mess 7 with any type. And so we relate differently. I relate for safety, you relate for people. So I can imagine that was hard to find. Cause also you're merging with him on each possible type really well.

Steph Barron Hall: 16:23

yeah, I, especially because I'm a sexual 3

Christa Hardin: 16:26

Oh wow! Okay, yes.

Steph Barron Hall: 16:29

yeah, so, anyhow, yeah, so, this is what I'm really curious about though, because when you're working with clients and you work with your therapist and you work with your clients with the Enneagram what do you think the benefits are? So it's like getting beneath the surface, having that extra map. Is there anything else that the Enneagram offers to your clients in your work with them?

Christa Hardin: 16:55

Not everybody's married who works with me and sometimes the Enneagram helps them to walk through personal journeys with their extended family and to have more compassion with their extended family. A lot of people forget that the generation right before them did not start with them and I feel like that's a really common misperception amongst youth is that it was all my parents and it's usually just such a long line of people ahead. So just to be able to say Oh let's try to walk through some possible issues that are this person's having that's maybe not here with us. I think that's huge. I always try to have such esteem for the person not in the room. Now obviously if they're an abuser, no, but when they're just a difficult person in the person's life, I really try to almost imagine they were here with us so that we could really give them that. Space. Cause I know that we all have our own story in our own space. So I feel that the Enneagram has been good to both hold and support my clients with whatever they have. So they feel 100 percent supported, but that they also don't villainize the spouse, partner, parent, child, sibling, who's not present. And so that then we can set the boundaries we need to help them to feel safe. Even if we don't say that other person is a villain. So it's just been helpful to give people less of a judgy attitude and more of a there's this person may have worth even if I need to set boundaries with them and then for themselves, right? Like those clients who don't feel that they have much to offer. The Enneagram can outside of relationships, give them a personal like, Ooh, I have a gift here. I'm a good peacemaker or, I'm a good problem solver. It's just neat.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:37

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's such a good point because it is really hard to remember to have compassion for the, for people who can challenge us in our specific ways that trigger us in these specific ways. But that reminder of Oh, this person has these other people. And I can understand, even if I'm not giving them a pass, like I can understand where that comes from.

Christa Hardin: 19:03

Yes.

Steph Barron Hall: 19:04

I had a therapist, yeah, I had a therapist who always said it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility.

Christa Hardin: 19:10

I like that.

Steph Barron Hall: 19:11

yeah. So like thinking of childhood trauma or whatever else, like you, it's your responsibility now Change and to update those narratives and that sort of thing.

Christa Hardin: 19:21

Yes. Yes. Instead of leaving us in the pathologized state. I'm really glad you had a therapist to do that. Cause I just heard about a teenager who is three ish and I was like, Oh, I was so annoyed. Cause they were like a young teen. And they're like, my therapist diagnosed me with a personality disorder. And I'm like, so I love that the Enneagram can also give us some, and even trauma. Informed therapy is now coming into the space of looking at trauma instead of just diagnostics. Yes!

Steph Barron Hall: 19:52

I would love to hear a little bit more about this concept that I've heard from you about the Enneagram glow and how it plays a role in intimate relationships, as you mentioned in your book.

Christa Hardin: 20:04

Oh, thank you. I really love that when we find our gifts, we find that we have a certain way that we shine in the world. And so, I love that when we find our couple pairing, or it could be family, friends, like my daughters are like, we have our sister glow. We have this way of shining uniquely together in the world. 45 pairings, as you well know, Different pairings shine differently. Some are super bright, like rocket scientists, others are super quiet, chill, but each of us has the potential to affect the world individually and as a pair in beautiful ways. But we also have the potential to cast shadows together and individually. So I think that the glow is a concept to help us to play with the analogy of light as a metaphor in our relationships to say like, how are you shining out there right now? Are you dim? Do you have your self care? Do you, are you oxygenated? And fire is just a great analogy because we're like, but if you're too fiery, you can burn each other. And I also like it with, for those who know about the the subtypes slash instincts. We can often think of the social instinct people as cool and the self presence warm and the sexual sort of hot. So I feel like the Enneagram glow just was born out of a way to process for people and with people. Like. How are you shining together? And a lot of course when we start seeing clients, they're like, we're not shining at all. We're burnt out. So it gives them a sense of like you could be shining again as we get your self care as we find your intimacy again. And then that third piece, which is your mission together. Like what are some gifts you both bring, which is so neat to be able to say, Oh, I'm a nine and I'm a two and we bring giving and peace. to our community. And then of course, uniquely, here's how we want to do that in this season of life,

Steph Barron Hall: 22:05

Yeah. Okay. So the three components are self care,

Christa Hardin: 22:10

healthy intimacy

Steph Barron Hall: 22:12

intimacy.

Christa Hardin: 22:13

and healthy giving socially. If I was to pair the glow with the instincts. But I also have, if people are looking for like, how do we glow across seasons of marriage I do have a model for that as well. Because I do think that we have a model for coming back up, and it's based upon our instincts generally. If you're not getting self praise, you're not going to be able to shine. If you're not having intimacy together, you really don't have any business serving in the world beautifully because You're messed up at home. Even though we all do it sometimes. bUt I think that it's just if we could have a perfect world, we would want to go that route. We'd want to put our oxygen mask on, make sure our family was good and then serve. Like when I was talking about speaking the other day in Chicago, my daughter goes you're going to leave me. And I was like, I can already see how this speaking is going to go, much slower than I thought. Because I have to think about this inner family dynamic before I head out to the world. But if we were to look across like a relationship, Stages model, we could see that couples start out early, very shiny, happy people often talk about that glow. And even like sometimes people are having a baby and you're glowing bride. It's just beautiful. New love is attractive. We all like to see it. It's like having an intern at your office. It just makes the world happier. And then we start to heal each other. After that stage and we're like, Oh my gosh, I never knew you could bring, this color out in me and I could bring this new shade out in you. I'm thinking of Taylor Swift song, which I put in the book too, where she's you showed me colors, I can't see with anyone else. There are pieces of us that each other, only certain people can bring out in you. And so you find that and it's beautiful. Then as that song alludes to. You hit shadows sometimes and you've got to work through those shadows and immerse in the work. Or you're going to just miss out and have a lot of superficial dark relationships, which just don't have any light to them anymore. The absence of light. And that's really hard and terrifying. And sometimes our partner won't come along with us on the journey. Also just season by season, marriage is very long. So sometimes there's. Lots of years where it's one partner carrying the other and my own parents marriage had that where I would watch one carry each other for literally 10 years and then the next one carry them for 10 years. And I was like, wow. So these dynamics of watching my couples, my own marriage, my parents helped me to see you. That we can rise up and hit our like 2. 0 and our afterglow because we can walk through and find the best ways to set boundaries, to heal, to emotionally connect and that's a beautiful thing to see. And then that last step, I would say we come back to that. Okay, how do we shine now together to encourage other couples? because just yesterday my husband was saying, Krista, man, like we're, he goes, I was watching this very brazen speaker recently and he said, Oh, when you hit age or 13 your kid is 13 and in a marriage. This is when marriage really starts to fall off around that 13th to 15th year. And West goes, this is what's happened to so many of the couples around us. And I didn't believe it, but it's true. So cookie cutter that if you don't take care of your marriage after a while, those shadows just get you. So I just thought that was interesting to go along with what we just shared.

Steph Barron Hall: 25:30

Yeah, for sure. And I love that you shared that piece about the mission aspect, because I always just thought of it as myself, type three, of course, like I feel most connected when I have a common goal and we're working together with someone, but I could see how that would be more universal. Yeah,

Christa Hardin: 25:46

yeah, I love that you have that as a three where you have your mission, but I think everyone needs that because like you said it, you hinted at, it fosters connection and growth together to have a common purpose.

Steph Barron Hall: 26:00

well, and I'm not saying like mission in life. It's like. Working together to re landscape our yard. You know what I mean?

Christa Hardin: 26:07

Yeah, exactly. Sometimes they're little missions like that, but they connect us and people forget that is very powerful and our nuanced stories are what matter. Like when we say we're doing this, it's we language and we're not just running on parallel lines anymore.

Steph Barron Hall: 26:23

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay, so I would love for you to share with our listeners because in your book you have, you break the types down and you have these different kind of buckets and I would love to hear a little bit about An overview of what each type offers to a relationship. You can just give us like a one sentence and then one tidbit about one challenge each type brings to the relationship.

Christa Hardin: 26:49

Yeah, that's a great question. So I think one gift the one brings is they're always going to bring improvement to our relationship, which is amazing. I've benefited so much from that. Now what they're also going to bring on the flip side challenge is they're going to look for errors even when those aren't as big of a deal. So, They're going to bring too many errors out. Now the type two is going to be such a giver in their marriage that they're going to want to share and they have also yet this rejection wound that prevents them from accepting the love their spouse wants to give in, this is key, the way their spouse wants to give it. And so they're always looking for more and it's hard. The type three is going to gloriously achieve is not going to mind doing that. It's going to be part of their essence to truly mark out goals and even help encourage their spouse to do the very same marvelously. But on the flip side, often they're going to hide their own heart in the process and say that doesn't matter. And yet it does. And so there'll be side routes to getting heart needs met. Type fours really, in a relationship, look for feeling significant and unique and they love time together, but that can cost them and their partnership when their ideals are so high for finding all of their worth through their partner and finding disappointment when their partner can't meet the exorbitant sometimes need of quality time that a four does want from them. Or if the four isn't willing to give that back to you as far as loving on them, um, now the five really brings a lot of perspective and objectivity to a relationship. So people find those five partnerships so delightful to be able to say, oh, they just like. They let me tell them things. They let me talk it out. And then they give me this neutral observer piece and safety. But what sometimes people don't know is that having a spouse that's a five can be very lonely at times because they're withdrawers to the point that they're in fear that they'll overdo and they may lose all of their energy. And now their spouse is you're locked away in a dungeon of sorts. And I miss you get out of the bat cave. I hear that a lot from my clients married to five. Now a six brings so much loyalty the straightforward planning, the the adaptability, the pragmatism of just everyday good standard living. And I think that's a gift that so many would want and they make wonderful spouses in that way. And then yet, if the plans aren't according to what they had hoped. They can become very rigid or try to control because they're like, I need to control for these other variables, but it's not always on their shoulders to do that. And sometimes they need to take that deep breath, that pause, that surrender to and let the plans unfold as they will. As A seven, I would say that what we bring to a marriage or relationship in terms of strength is a lot of encouragement for our partner, a lot of belief in who they are. Similar to the three, we really cheerlead well for who we know our spouse or partner could be. And we see them through the glass half. And I'm always able to do that. Even if there's another part of me that can see my husband for who he actually is. I just couldn't be like, you are amazing and truly believe that too. And yet what we can miss is those moments of emotionality that are necessary to do the deeper work of what about when you need to say something uncomfortable to your spouse and. They aren't ready to hear it or they're going to be angry and learning to sit with those feelings is very hard for a seven now with an eight. These are protectors and these are defenders for their spouse and family and it can feel so good to know somebody like that is your secure base and they're just not going to let anything happen to you. But on the flip side, sometimes it does happen by their own hand that they're the ones who mistreat you or try to even control you. And it can feel really sad for the person connected with the 8 because it feels like the 8 is leading but also taking a lot. 8's have a lot of energy. So there's a lot of there's a lot of sadness for the partner who doesn't rise up to the 8 to offer a challenge back. But the nine is a peaceful spouse who is going to be very thoughtful, and that is just such a beautiful gift to bring. Because they really care about the other, and that's a rarity in the world these days. But it's also hard because sometimes they forget themselves in the process, and then... They get sad and mad because they've forgotten themselves and then they sometimes just let that stay inside and it goes undigested and they might not want to do any movement. And there's a lot of stagnation, false promises in a marriage. So, as we can see, every type has this beautiful gift, but also a shadow that they bring.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:16

Yeah, of course. Yeah, for sure. I think for a type three, I was like, I feel like my biggest thing is just being so impatient,

Christa Hardin: 32:23

Yeah, I get that with your future, yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:26

I want this done yesterday,

Christa Hardin: 32:29

yeah, I bet.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:31

Yeah.

Christa Hardin: 32:32

Thankfully, yeah, you have a partner who probably moves with you to some degree pretty quickly. But that's a really good challenge that you're bringing to yourself. Is you're like, pause, have some patience.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:44

Yeah. Thanks so much for that synopsis. Because I think that it's just so useful to think about these synopsis. Things in terms of relationships, Of how we can actually look at ourselves. And I think that the Enneagram is often accused of being negative, but of course as a seven you bring out the positivity of it and sometimes we do need to remember our strengths,

Christa Hardin: 33:04

YEah, we even I can get negative with it and I like that there's the seven part of me that can be positive with two and the three part of you because we need that so badly with the way it can be all negative. But I also love what you said because we don't do life in a vacuum. And when we come upon our type and our instincts, we start making shifts. It affects the people we're living with. A lot. Like I said, as I was like, I'm going to go on the speaking tour. And my daughter's hello, I'm a four. What are you doing? And I'm like, Oh,

Steph Barron Hall: 33:33

Yeah.

Christa Hardin: 33:34

We have to look at all the angles, all the prisms of the family glow.

Steph Barron Hall: 33:40

Yeah, that's such a good point. Like how y'all work together. And you, your kids are teenagers now, so they're into their types and everything.

Christa Hardin: 33:48

Yes. And my son is 11. We don't know his for sure, but we think he's a six.

Steph Barron Hall: 33:52

Okay. Cool. Yeah. I love that. I'm curious how you confronted that. Cause this is something I'm asked all the time. How did you approach typing with your kids? Yeah.

Christa Hardin: 34:06

learning about types and because I homeschool, they were often right near me. And so they were kids who were, especially my two daughters who are a lot older. They really wanted to learn about it, especially my type nine daughter. Just because she was interested in some business aspects and she just liked hearing about it. But when my other daughter was struggling emotionally. She ended up taking an Enneagram test and teens are always taking tests by the way. If anyone out there has teens or maybe even is a teen, like this is just, they're always taking them. So it happened in and outside of me. Like maybe they knew I did Enneagram work. So they were like doing their own thing with it. And then guess what? Me and my friends found out where these types. And of course, then I'm going to say hold on, sit with that. But eventually. We knew my daughter was a nine and it was just absolutely awesome because she was only about 11 or 12 at the time, but she was having so many spaces of being left out and forgotten and her voice not being heard that the empowerment she got to let her life unfold more in her power. has been a gift we could never give back. So even though people are like, be cautious, if that child is super mature and responsible and finding it on their own I think we need to empower their growth, even if we're like, hold it lightly. And then my four, type four daughter, she was having some emotional struggles in the time of COVID, and she said that finding her Enneagram type was part of coming out of that. Because she realized I don't have to be like everyone else as a teenager. And that was extremely helpful for her to hear because she was like, I feel very unique and different. And then she realized, maybe that's not a bad thing. I'm an Enneagram 4. And this is something that's part of my gifting. And so that really helped her to accept herself just the way she was versus she said she was doing total groupthink at her old co op. And then she was like, it was such a gift that I got Enneagram and I got to pull away from that group. Because now she still likes to join groups, she's still a heart type, she likes to identify with others. But she's got this understanding of I have identity outside of the group too. So I feel like Enneagram has to come to your kids when they're ready. As you heard me say too, if you do have a child, who's not sure, don't push it, but let them be part of the conversations. Cause with mom working in Enneagram, I'll be sad if my son Jack didn't get to have a voice in it. So he gets to process and say who he thinks people's types are on shows and things.

Steph Barron Hall: 36:41

Yeah, that's really fun. Yeah, I think like one of my concerns with it. And I'm really curious to hear, your perspective on this is that I sometimes see people, young people, like maybe they're, college age or like early twenties. And they're like, there's so much pressure to be a quote unquote, like healthy version of the type. And from my perspective, I'm like, you know what you don't have to be it. You don't have to be all sorted and healed. And I remember that pressure when I was that age. And I get concerned at times that These kids are like, well, I'm a healthy blah, blah, blah. So I don't do that. And it's okay and it's also okay if you do and it's okay if you're not

Christa Hardin: 37:24

Which is so beautiful. Yes, you're already loved even if you're not fully amazing. Like you have your bad days and you have your shadows and what if you just do? I love that. That's refreshing to hear from me because I'm an idealist. I really enjoy the harmony groups of the Enneagram, a different triad, but Boy, us idealists put way too much pressure on our people to be perfect and to be the healthy of everything. So that's a good reminder for me when you say that stuff, just, letting people just be as they are. That's a hard one for me. It's something we talk about a lot in my home. Where I'll be like, Oh my gosh just I have to let you sit with your emotions and just be and that'll be like, Oh, okay. Can you like lament that? And then get over that. And my daughter who's a four is just I'm still there. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is so hard. So I'm just still learning that process, but of course, I think we all agree. Like we would not want to put those demands on poor kids who are still developing.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:23

So much pressure. And you're both idealists, you and your

Christa Hardin: 38:26

Exactly. And my husband and her, our oldest.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:29

oh yeah,

Christa Hardin: 38:31

we're all just you should be perfect parents. You should be a perfect husband. You should be a perfect wife. So we do feel like we work hard for our best, but like when we fall and we crash, it's really nice to know you're loved. For who you are. And I do feel that hopefully every listener can do that with us. That's been a very safe thing to just be like, at the end of the day I'm just grateful that I'm loved by you guys because I know I'm certainly nowhere near perfect, and they're saying the same to me. And there's a lot of comfort in that. We can do that. Even if I'm an idealist, we do always say that you are so loved, no matter what, to all of each other. Even we don't think our other two are idealists, but we tell them the same you're just immeasurably loved.

Steph Barron Hall: 39:15

yeah, I love that, yeah, um, yeah I think that it is a really hard thing I think in my life, and this is probably again, just like myself being a three, being like such a three about like even inner work stuff being like, okay, I'm going to go at it full force. And to the point where, well, we don't need to get into all of that, but like to the point where it's like not all that helpful. And I am curious. When you're working with people your clients or couples, or even, your kids or yourself, and they're really focused on the shadow side and quote unquote fixing it. Cause I think that's my tendency, right? Is to be like, I want to fix this. Like I want this to feel sorted and done. Tie it up with a nice bow, put it on the shelf, and walk away. How do you work with people like that to bring in more of that sense of self acceptance or self compassion that is really more indicative of healing?

Christa Hardin: 40:18

Yeah, I think we bring as much humor as we can to it because we have to laugh at ourselves and our foibles and we just have these propensities. So that's a good thing about the Enneagram is we can see. This is part of who you are, and if I try to take this from you, I think of Nathaniel Hawthorne's short story, the book Birthmark, because he is trying to rub away this woman's birthmark in the story, and he's you're so perfect. It's just this one birthmark, and it ends up being a fatal... piece of the story when he rubs it away and she dies because that was part of her essence and It's meant to remind us all to love each other with who with these quirks that we have in Idiosyncrasies and that's who we actually are and so I think that what I try to do is bring in humor around it but also to lighten some of it like I've said Sometimes for better, mostly for better, but sometimes I need to sit with it longer. But the other thing I try to bring is tools. Like when my son is in a 6 ish behavior I try to just be with him in that. And oh, you're having a bit of an obsession here. I have that too sometimes, and we'll just laugh about it. I'm like, when I go to my... Pure bar class. I want the mats to be just right. And I'm like, isn't that so silly and we just laugh because we're like, this is ridiculous how we are, but we just know we love each other within our strange little quirks or my daughter being in her four spaces. I know that it's so dumb, but I did not like it when she had the same outfit as me, but we know you're a four. And so that's intolerable. It made you feel so annoyed when she was copying off of you. And so we just, and to be fair to my nine, she's often way more mature than the people around her. Cause she's thoughtful and, just taking a deep breath with her. Even amongst teachers sometimes to be like, I'm so sorry that you had to be the strong one here and we just weigh it out situation by situation because this week I wanted to use my aggression and I'm like, I don't think this one's worth it. What do you think? And she's no, I don't think so. But as we could imagine, you could be like you said, staff like every time somebody doesn't honor your voice, we're taking them down.

Steph Barron Hall: 42:24

Yeah, be really impatient about it,

Christa Hardin: 42:26

Right, so we're like learning, like some of this isn't even worth it,

Steph Barron Hall: 42:31

yeah, learning together. I like that.

Christa Hardin: 42:32

Yeah, we're learning.

Steph Barron Hall: 42:34

So speaking of tools in your book, you have assignments for different couples, like the different pairings too. And we should say that there are 45 type pairings. And so you have different assignments for them. And I'm wondering if you can share one of them as an example for us.

Christa Hardin: 42:50

Absolutely. I will share the 1 5 pairing because they are a really good pairing for giving sage advice and they're very responsible and dutiful and they just connect on such a practical level. Neither one of them is super demanding in terms of like practicality. They're both very logical. But sometimes they run into trouble because the one will feel the shoulds for a long time in the marriage. And so we have to work on that as one of the tools of don't look around at everybody else's marriage. Understand that your five brings to the subjective view of being able to see. You're fine. You're just not like every other marriage out there. And if you guys are tracking well, don't look to see what everyone else is doing. Just keep your feet in the ground where you're at together and see you actually have a really good connection. However, something I recommend to this pairing also in my glow pairing dictionary is in addition to the ways they shine and give advice to the world and care about things and are very caring and relational together. They could miss each other's heartbeat because neither is a heart type. So I often actually tell this particular pairing is the only one I tell this to go get those date night kits, like from dating divas or something else, a fun planned night. And some of my one five couples will actually tell me like, Do you have any ideas? We're running out of date night kids. So they need that. They need somebody to plan their romance for them. And when they do, they're great. But the other part of when they're great is when they just put away the shoulds and they literally chill out and watch a show together at night and they stop giving them stuff like that one says, like I'm not going to give all those things to myself. But this pairing also does well with coaching because they do get angry together. The five is got the strong wing. I'm sorry, arrow two and eight. And then the one is obviously very strong body type already. So this is a great candidate for just getting some of their frustrations out with a neutral third party. So those are a few tips I give to them.

Steph Barron Hall: 44:53

Yeah, I like that a lot. I think it's really interesting because both of those types I think can have real issues with the ills of the world around them. And so I could imagine it actually being difficult sometimes to do something fun or light or have conversations that are not intense.

Christa Hardin: 45:11

Yes. That's another great reason why they do that. And then the five is so worried about safety and the one so worried about doing what's right more than what's safe. And so there's a lot of clashing. And so they're like, we just need our fun together. We need our six or more hours a week of just like date night, chill. And remembering we actually get along really well when we're not faced with everybody else's problems around us.

Steph Barron Hall: 45:35

Yeah. Well, and also I could imagine these two types being like, okay, I need X, Y, Z from you and the other one being like, great, thank you for the instruction manual and I will do this.

Christa Hardin: 45:45

Exactly it is like that sometimes except when they're hitting like burnout where the fives like I'm burnout and the ones like I'm burnout So sometimes they have to do even as hard as it is for a five Some trauma work, where they have to look deeper at why they're so like trapped inside and won't step out and risk a little. And then the one has to look at why am I so angry? And maybe also OCD. And so sometimes I have to field them out to trauma work as well because they might even have something deeper.

Steph Barron Hall: 46:23

Yeah. That makes sense. Okay, thank you for sharing that. I think that's going to be really helpful, and I know that you have 45 of those in your book. So what else do we need to know about you, about your book?

Christa Hardin: 46:37

I think that one of my favorite pieces about the book and it goes with me is that my past books I've written just for me and my clients on a very small sort of self prez. Only the sexual self press level and this book as you could hear, I really try to stretch myself to be in that social, like how can we give to the world as a couple to and the couple's reading it. And I feel like that's because of the growth that I've, the journey I've been on to doing that work and my husband helping me through that over the years. But what you can also really expect because of that expansive journey I've been on is. more heart than you would expect or see in my first books, which were very family systems based, just straight up couples manuals. I share personal stories of growth and vulnerability too. And I think sometimes when we're looking for help or correction, we need to know that we're not alone. So I've been trying to be more vulnerable and also share from a healthily vulnerable space where I'm not like, Asking you guys who are reading to fix my problems, but I'm sharing like these are the ones I work on and I'm working on have worked on and then I even give you some conflict tools because I think when any of us opens up like marriage book. We're hoping to get some tools for conflict. The Enneagram conflict triad is very practical for couples and it's easily explained in the book. And then we also even have a forgiveness chapter because I know, and I know you know this too, that like sometimes you do all the work, you've got your Enneagram types, you have some compassion, you've got your conflict tools. And there's just this still, at least for me sometimes this underbelly of If it's not fully healed, I can still feel it. And so I give couples some tips and a whole chapter on looking at your vices, looking at ways to forgive each other on a deeper level. Of course we know it's going to be unique couple by But there are some ways and some steps you can do together to walk through an attachment injury together. So I offer those as well.

Steph Barron Hall: 48:41

Yeah, I love that. So practical, so useful.

Christa Hardin: 48:44

Thank you. Thank

Steph Barron Hall: 48:46

Yeah.

Christa Hardin: 48:47

you. And I have a couple verses in there for people who are like, I also need God in my life because I do, but I really tried to make it a book that wasn't focused on that. But I just know that with Enneagram work, sometimes it's helpful to say, what do we do when we're both at a loss? And I'm like, there's where God comes in.

Steph Barron Hall: 49:05

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I appreciate that you called that out too, because I think sometimes well, I know that your publisher is a Christian publisher. And so, but I also know that not all of the books are expressly, from that perspective. So it's nice to have a little bit of a balance there. Yeah.

Christa Hardin: 49:22

Yes. Oh, thank you. Yes. I'm like, I don't want to inundate and I asked my publisher that first. I'm like, I don't even know if I'm going to bring faith into this book, but like where it needs to be brought in, I feel like I'm going to want to bring it in. And they were like flexibility. So I loved that.

Steph Barron Hall: 49:37

Great. Yeah, that's awesome. Okay. Where can people find you?

Christa Hardin: 49:41

Oh, thank you. This has been great. You can find me at Enneagram and marriage. com or you can type in the Enneagram in marriage. Krista Harden and you'll find the book on Amazon, Baker book house, Audible, wherever you listen, Kindle, all that stuff.

Steph Barron Hall: 49:56

Amazing. Okay. I will link all of those things in the show notes and I have two final questions that I ask everyone.

Christa Hardin: 50:02

Thank you. Awesome.

Steph Barron Hall: 50:03

So the first one is, tell me about a book that has helped refreshed or shaped you in the last year.

Christa Hardin: 50:09

I love this question and I have to give a shout out to my favorite author J. R. Tolkien. I love Lord of the Rings. I'm so obsessed and the reason his book helps me is because the main character is on an epic quest journey and sometimes feels like they're on their own and then the support for the journey, the fellowship comes along and it's just a comfort to know. Like I've said a few times, like we're just not alone and we're not better on our own. And that's something I have to sometimes tell myself almost every day is you need other people. And it's like a really good book that helps me to see that. And it helps me to be really stronger on my quest when I want to quit as a seven. So anyone who's ever in that space of I want to quit or life is too hard, I recommend Lord of the Rings trilogy. I'm

Steph Barron Hall: 51:04

question. Okay. Last question. What is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Christa Hardin: 51:13

A piece of advice that's really stuck with me is my mom's advice. She's passed now, but she was very gracious and her name Nancy meant full of grace. My daughter Hannah's named after her also means full of grace. And I just really appreciated her advice to love even difficult moments with difficult situations because, I do have that quick temperament of a seven, like if it's not easy or it's not joyful, I don't want any part of it if it's going to make me feel bad. And she just always had such a way of being like, even if I was sharing something hard about my husband, she'd be like, he's such a wonderful person though. And just, that's been a beautiful gift to have in my life. I also have a lot of friends who do that where I'll be like, didn't I just tell you about Wes? And then they're like, yes, and he's a wonderful person. So, those pieces of advice are ongoing. It's like my mom's spirit. I found friends like her who can really show me yes, set your boundaries and do your work, but you do not need to make this all or nothing. So, just as I'm on the journey as a guide, I am also right there on the pages with everybody trying to do the brave work.

Steph Barron Hall: 52:18

Yeah. I love that. That's so, I love that advice so much. And I think it's really useful to have those friends who like, you can tell them, how mad you are that, I don't know. I don't know. I'm trying to think of something, but I can't think of anything. But you can tell them about like how mad you are at your spouse, but they're still, I'm not going to change their mind about them.

Christa Hardin: 52:38

Right, I know, that's how all my friends are and they always tell us that I'm like, I can't believe it! I've told everyone your stuff and they're just like, you're amazing.

Steph Barron Hall: 52:46

It's such a gift though.

Christa Hardin: 52:47

He's sorry! One person's super mean and then to me and then he's I am so sorry. So sometimes it does backfire if they're too nice to him.

Steph Barron Hall: 52:55

Oh, that's so funny.

Christa Hardin: 52:57

Thank you though. Funny questions. I love your questions.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:00

Yeah. I love that. Thank you so much for joining me. This has been delightful.

Christa Hardin: 53:04

Aw, thank you Steph.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:05

And show us your book so we can,

Christa Hardin: 53:07

Oh, yes. Here we go.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:10

Enneagram and Marriage.

Christa Hardin: 53:12

Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much. I love the cover.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:17

Awesome. Thanks so much for coming.

Christa Hardin: 53:19

Yes, it was great. Thank you for having me.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:23

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify