Leaving a Career in Law to Follow Her Novelist Dreams as an Enneagram 3 with Mary Adkins

Mary Adkins: 1:30

It's such a three thing that we over invest in our work and our productivity. And, it's so funny because, I wrote this memoir about, how that year helped me see that clearly that my value is not my productivity and that I, I can't put it there. Or I will up without valuing myself and so like, it's this arc of me realizing that, but the way that our stories tend to end is, is sort of like if someone has a perspective shift, there's this kind of implication that then everything was different and I. I'm not the same, like I said earlier, I do feel like I've metamorphosized because I see the world differently, but that doesn't mean that my habits have just changed that quickly, you know, it's still, I still will habitually, because I've done it for so long at the end of the day, run through a checklist of how productive I was, and if I was productive, I feel good about myself. I don't like that. You know, I, I, it doesn't lead to good places doing that. It leads to the kind of burnout we're talking about, I think

Samson Q2U Microphone & Golden Delicious 3: 2:46

Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in real life, a podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host step-parent hall. And on today's episode, I'm speaking with a writing coach and we talk all about. What it's like to change careers and explore. Different types of writing from novels to memoirs. And I talk about my experience with nonfiction, and then we get into some of the details about writing advice for each Enneagram type. We don't go through all nine types, but I will have an episode up. Covering writing advice for each of the types coming soon. So be on the lookout for that. But I really loved this episode because I felt like, in discussing this with. Today's guest. There was a lot of insight into type three. And how, you know, sometimes it seems like type threes are just achieving and they're wildly confident and just going out and conquering everything. And while that can be part of the type three personality, it's not always what goes beneath the surface. So sometimes the confidence feels a little bit skin deep and it's part of the work for threes. To explore. Navigating life through rejection and through pain and building more patients and building more of a sense of confidence. That comes from an internal sense of being rather than from. Having tons of accolades and achievements. I think this will be a great episode to listen to if you are a three or if you have a three in your life and you want to understand them a little bit better. I really appreciated this guest insight into her perspective. So on this episode, we are meeting with Mary Atkins. She's a writing coach and the founder of the book incubator, a 12 month program to write revise and pitcher novel or memoir. She's author of the novels. When you read this. Which received a best book of 2019 awards by good housekeeping and real simple. Privilege, which was today.com best summer read and New York Post's best book of the week. And Palm beach recently named one of the New York posts. Best books of 2021. And by the way, I recently finished that when I tore through it, I really enjoyed Palm beach. So highly recommend checking that one out. Her books have been published in 13 countries and our essays and reporting have appeared in the New York times, the Atlantic slate and more a graduate of Yale law school and duke university. She helps aspiring authors finish their books with joy and clarity. You can apply for the book incubator, which is her program, in what she'll walk alongside you, as you write your novel or memoir. The book, incubator.com and you'll find all these links in the show notes. So without further ado, here's my conversation with writer and type three, Mary Atkins

Steph Hall: 5:18

okay. Mary Adkins, welcome to the podcast.

Mary Adkins: 5:21

So happy to be here.

Steph Hall: 5:24

Thanks so much for joining me. I'm so glad that we're able to have this conversation. And I think it's interesting to talk a little bit more broadly. I've talked with a lot of like coaches and therapists and things like that about the Enneagram, or like Enneagram authors, you know, these people who are really specific in the space, but you also have this other business as a novelist and a writing coach in addition. To loving the Enneagram.

Mary Adkins: 5:49

Yeah. I'm an Enneagram lover and obsessed person. And then I, but I don't, I'm not an Enneagram coach. I don't teach Enneagram and I don't even write about Enneagram. I, like you said, I'm a novelist, but I, and I have a memoir coming out, but I use Enneagram very much in my life and I use it in my teaching when I work with writers now.

Steph Hall: 6:11

Oh, that's so awesome. Okay. Well, I have to admit, and I'm curious to hear more about your type. Cause I intentionally didn't ask in advance. but I do have a bone to pick because I'm the type of person who like, when I start reading a book, I like, I will not do anything else. Like the laundry does not happen. Working does not happen. It's not good. And I started reading your book Palm Beach and I was like, This is going to be one of those.

Mary Adkins: 6:37

Yay! I'm so glad. That makes me

Steph Hall: 6:40

And I was like, I'm going to tell Mary that I'm already mad at her. And I haven't met her yet.

Mary Adkins: 6:46

Yay. Oh my gosh. I'm so glad that book was like that for you. I love that feeling too. Like when I, well, yeah, I get, it's also annoying because yeah, you don't want to do anything else. But it's so fun when you love, you get so into a book that much. Yeah.

Steph Hall: 7:00

So I put it down. So I'm showing up for this interview, but so I'm curious to hear a little bit more about you and your background and how you kind of got into the Enneagram.

Mary Adkins: 7:11

Cool. So I, my sister is in a neogram coach and she introduced me to it a few years ago and I just took one of those. I took the online test. I think it was through the Enneagram Institute. It's 40 questions or something. I paid 12 and I typed as a 7 and I, for a while, thought I was a 7, but I was mistyped, which I now know because I eventually I got so fascinated by the Enneagram that I started. Working with my own Enneagram coach, and she was like, I don't think you're a seven. I think you're a three. And it was interesting because I really, really did not want to be a three. I, I loved the idea of being a seven. I was like, this means I'm fun and people want me at parties. And I'm like, you know, like I loved the idea of being the seven. Like I, I would say that with pride, like, well, I'm a seven. I'm the fun one, you know, And so when she's like, I think you're a three, it was like, what? I was so defensive about it. Like, I'm not a three. I don't care about status. And that's what I would, I would point to him. Like, I am not caring. I don't care about status. I would say if I were a three, I would have stayed in law because I love law to be a writer. I'm like, I would have stayed in law just because it. Sounded good and she's like, well, let's look at the rest of your life choices. And so I ultimately I realized I am. I am in fact a 3 and I think that 1 reason I did not test as a 3 is that I had. So I have have so deeply kind of. I don't know if it would be training myself or just had gotten into the habit of suppressing feelings that I, I kind of, I don't know. I don't even think I was answering the questions on the test like as authentically as, as I might have if I were being really real about that. So, so I'm a three long, long story short, I'm a three.

Steph Hall: 9:13

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And I also am a three, but I always test as seven on the ready.

Mary Adkins: 9:21

Really? Interesting.

Steph Hall: 9:25

I was actually talking with my husband about this recently. Cause he was like, well, how do you know that you're a three and not a seven? And what I said is like, when you look at the passions, right? So we have gluttony for seven and self deceit for three. I do need to work on gluttony. I do have that like shiny object syndrome where I'm like, Oh my gosh, I want to do everything and try everything and be everywhere. But if I only worked on that, I would never get to the real heart issue of what I need to work on, which is

Mary Adkins: 9:52

only were, oh, right. Yes. I love that definition because I completely relate to that. I think, yeah, I think I also have shiny object syndrome. I mean, the thing that really cinched it for me is the Enneagram code. She's like, I think you're a three. And I'm like, I don't know. I just, I don't think I'm a three. I think I'm a seven. At one point I said something like, well, you know, I. I really don't, like, if my opinion is going to be unpopular in a room, like, I don't share it. And she was like, she was like, not a seven. And I was like, what do you mean? She's like, sevens just kind of say it. And I thought of my friend, I have a, my friend's a seven. My, I have a couple of family members who are sevens. And I realized like, oh, they all just kind of say what they think. Whereas I. Don't. I mean, like, I don't want to make waves. I'm like, I want you to like me. So I'm not lying, but I'm also like, well, let me finesse. You know, it'll be like the, like, I just want, I just want you to like me and I want us to get along. And that, that helped me start to see it more clearly.

Steph Hall: 11:08

Yeah, like what's the most diplomatic way to say

Mary Adkins: 11:11

Yes.

Steph Hall: 11:12

something?

Mary Adkins: 11:13

Whereas my good friend who is a 7 is the opposite of diplomatic. Like, she, Does not care comes across.

Steph Hall: 11:20

which I love that and I admire it. And I think sometimes people who are like that are like, wow, why did I say that thing? You know,

Mary Adkins: 11:27

right.

Steph Hall: 11:29

that makes sense. So tell me a little bit more about like how you move from law into writing.

Mary Adkins: 11:37

I became a lawyer, I think. Very, and it was part of my 3 nests. Like, I was always a student who wanted to be high achieving. I wanted to accolades affirmations the ace. And then law fit right into that, you know, it was like, let me go to a law school. Let me just like, but like, I was loved telling people I was in law school. I liked telling people I was a lawyer. It was just like, it felt good. I was like, I'm smart, you know, but it turned out that actually being a lawyer was. It just was terrible. Like, it was a terrible fit for what I actually wanted to be doing with my time. And that became clear once I was in the job. I wanted to be writing. And I, my writing I also think is related to my threeness. Because it has always been where I feel like I can be my authentic self and, like, say the things that I don't say in regular life. I, whether it's fiction or nonfiction, I mean, interestingly, fiction provides even more of that kind of safe space because it's, it's It's make believe, so it's like I could put in the like feelings or fears or even thoughts that I might genuinely be experiencing, but, but express those through the safety of this make believe world. even with nonfiction, there was something about writing that I could be braver, like I could get on the page like what I was actually feeling, and I don't, I still don't even understand why that is. Like, what is so magical about putting pen to paper or even typing as opposed to verbalizing? But for me, they have always been very different. Yeah,

Steph Hall: 13:23

Yeah, that makes sense. And I think I remember years ago when I was learning about type three, hearing people say like threes will have something really hard happen to them and be like, Oh, I'm going to turn this into a story, right? Like a memoir, a book or whatever, which that comes up in my brain all the time, but it's so cathartic. And I think there's something really helpful about it.

Mary Adkins: 13:47

yeah, and that's I think another thing that I've my My journey with the Enneagram has evolved in that, like, I think when I, when I first started getting into the Enneagram, I think I saw it as like, oh, these are all the things I need to fix about myself now. Like, now that I know I'm a 3, like, that impulse to turn an experience into something creative, it's like, well, I should just not do that. I should change that. Like, that's not healthy. But now I think I just, I see it in a more nuanced way now, like, I think it can actually be really healthy. It could be healthy or unhealthy, but like, it in itself, that impulse doesn't, isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Steph Hall: 14:30

Yeah, well, I think there's something really healthy about allowing people to see what's happening behind the curtain

Mary Adkins: 14:37

Yes. Yeah.

Steph Hall: 14:39

because if you're like always managing your image, you wouldn't let people do that.

Mary Adkins: 14:44

Exactly. So it's like, is it motivated by... Let me manage my image, like, let me spin this into something that's going to preserve my image. Or is it motivated by let me reveal to people what's really going on? Like, right? Like, I feel like an active creativity could be motivated by either of those things.

Steph Hall: 15:04

Yeah,

Mary Adkins: 15:05

And one is probably less healthy and one is probably more healthy.

Steph Hall: 15:10

yeah, yeah. What do you think were some of the challenges that you faced when you started shifting into this new career as like a writer? Which I know it's not necessarily new now, but, Ha

Mary Adkins: 15:23

Oh my gosh. Patience.

Steph Hall: 15:25

ha ha

Mary Adkins: 15:26

Patience was so hard. When I left my law job, I, to write, I, first of all, everyone in my life was like is this a good idea? This does not seem like a good idea. I mean, I had massive student loan debt. I had just graduated from law school. Like, I was supposed to be a lawyer. It didn't make sense that I would quit and just start. Tutoring just randomly during the week to pay my bills, but I would tell them, I remember telling people, like, I think it'll take me about a year to write a book that can get published. I just thought, yeah, it'll take me a year. And even that felt a little long. And it ended up taking me about seven years. And so patience was really tough. I don't, is that a three thing? Like wanting stuff, stuff to happen quickly? Yeah.

Steph Hall: 16:14

Yeah, yeah. So like, I'll be working on something and somebody I'm working with will be like, Oh, when do you want this done by? And I'm like, well, honestly yesterday, but that's not your problem.

Mary Adkins: 16:24

Yes,

Steph Hall: 16:25

Ha Right? Like, it's like, Oh, I just want it to be done yesterday. And even now, this last calendar year, I've been writing two books. And so I'm like, Oh, why is this taking forever? I thought it was going to be like, I'll just write it, which it's not my first two books. My very first one though. I think I had a bit of like, I didn't feel as inadequate writing it because I didn't know as much as I know now. Right.

Mary Adkins: 16:53

Same. Same. Exactly. There's like that beauty of naivety, which is like, oh, just do it. and then and then you learn more and you're like, wow, I can't do that again.

Steph Hall: 17:05

Right. And I think I've heard you say this where it's like knowing that people are going to read it.

Mary Adkins: 17:11

Mhm.

Steph Hall: 17:12

Is like a whole nother

Mary Adkins: 17:14

Very different.

Steph Hall: 17:16

but I do think the patience thing is really hard for threes because we just want everything to move faster And we can be impatient with ourselves. We can be impatient with others we can be impatient with just like the natural process of things. I just see that coming up so much

Mary Adkins: 17:31

Yeah. It came up, it definitely came up for me when I was, when I was working toward being published because also the three in me, you know, like, and I, this isn't just threes. I think this is a lot of people cause I work with people of all types, any grim types. And you know, of course when people are working on a book, they want it Like you're writing it so people will read it. Like that's a very. Natural desire. But I, I really wanted to be able to say to people, like, I'm a published author. I mean, when I would go to a, like, a high school reunion or just sealed friends, I'd be like, what are you doing now? I so badly wanted to say, I have a book coming out not. I quit being a lawyer and I write during the day, but I don't know if anyone's ever going to publish it. You know, like that's, that was much more uncomfortable for me to say.

Steph Hall: 18:23

Yeah i'm curious what it was like for you when you were like trying to sell your first book because so i've only written non fiction which is You sell the proposal, not sell the book. But so you are, you wrote the book and then you're trying to sell it.

Mary Adkins: 18:39

Yeah.

Steph Hall: 18:39

Was there a lot of rejection?

Mary Adkins: 18:41

ton, a ton of rejection. Like, I mean, I got over 70 rejections, seven zero. And so it's, and they're kind of slow coming and, and you know, some are harsher than others, but it was, it was a, A lot of rejection. And yes, for fiction, you have to write the full book first. So, it was a lot of rewriting, too. So, you know, get a rejection. And some of the more generous rejections would give me... Feedback as part of it, which I actually really appreciate it, even though it was hard to read, but it would be like, well, I really think you need to do this differently and I would take that and revise, you know, take that feedback and revise. So, so that it was, it was long. I mean, I, I really did a query. I was querying literary agents to sell my manuscript for me. So I, I queried for about 6 years. And it wasn't like I wasn't sending out 1 a day, you know, it was there's a lot of waiting and that also tested my patients. Like, when you in publishing, sometimes I'll tell the writers I work with, like, it's. It's so slow and people are stunned when they hear how slow, but it's because I mean, it takes years, typically years to get a literary agent, or maybe a year they'll send it out to a publisher that takes weeks, even months for them to hear back. I have a friend whose manuscript the agent sent to publishers, and they've been sitting on it since last December. And, you know, it's now, so it's like 10 months and they're still haven't read it. And it's not a no, she hasn't gotten no yet from these editors, but they just still have it. And then once you do get the book contract, it tends to be another two years or so before it hits shelves. So there's, there is a lot of waiting baked into it. And that's always been challenging for me

Steph Hall: 20:36

Yeah. That is challenging. And then is there a point where it speeds up and you're like, Oh, this is moving fast now.

Mary Adkins: 20:45

when it comes out. And the weird thing, I mean, I'm curious about your experience, but my experience with it being so slow right before is that when it comes out, typically haven't read the book in, like, a year. So, for example, when Palm Beach came out, I would do these launch events and someone would ask about something and I would be, I would not remember because also you've done all these drafts, you know, it's like, well, I don't remember in that scene what I ended up deciding. Did she do this or did she do that? Like, I. I remember writing a couple different versions. I don't remember which version actually made it into the final draft because I haven't actually read the book in a year. So I mean, I, I mean, what you should do, what would have made sense for me to do is to reread it. Right before it comes out, so that, like, I would be intimately familiar familiar with it again before these launch events, but I didn't and I think the, my problem has always been to that. And I don't know if this is a 3 thing or just a human thing, but even when I've, I've been doing readings at events, will kind of edit the words on the page as I'm reading aloud, because. Once a book is coming out, I sometimes decide that I hate it.

Steph Hall: 22:06

Yeah, yeah,

Mary Adkins: 22:07

Yeah. And I, so I kind of don't want to read, like, I don't want to put myself through that. I want to be like, it's, it's done. I can't change it now. I'm not going to make myself read it and think of all the things I wish I had done differently.

Steph Hall: 22:20

yeah, like just the self criticism part and then even like how much better you've gotten at writing because if you've continued writing since even though you know it was published and all this stuff like for me writing this last book I think the first chapter that I sent with the proposal I wrote like last June so by the time I worked myself back over to that original chapter as I was finishing up the book to turn it turn the the You Manuscript draft in, I was like, Oh, this is garbage

Mary Adkins: 22:52

Yeah,

Steph Hall: 22:53

because it is so long. Like, I think it had been like, you know, eight or nine months. And I was like, I've gotten so much better since then.

Mary Adkins: 23:02

Yeah. You get so much better. And I also think you get better at writing that book, you know, Like, your relationship to that book gets deeper and richer and you become more comfortable with it and you're like writing more naturally. And so I completely relate to that. So then I get to the end and it's sort of like, it's flowing, I, like, we've created all this complexity. And then you go back to the beginning and you're like, oh, this is this was little me. Like, little younger me wrote this.

Steph Hall: 23:35

Yeah.

Mary Adkins: 23:36

That's

Steph Hall: 23:36

Yeah. I think that my experience is pretty different only because, well, one, the first book that I wrote I signed the contract in November and it came out the following June.

Mary Adkins: 23:49

That's really fast.

Steph Hall: 23:50

I turned in the book. And because of the type of publisher that it was. So it was just like such a quick timeline. And I really didn't have time to think deeply about it, to be honest. In a way that I might have otherwise. So that was really different, and I'm writing about things that are like, there's like an accepted canon, right, with the Enneagram of like, this is how these types operate, this is how they are, so while I'm trying to infuse some creativity and some perspective into it from what I know and what I've learned, I also have to be like, I want to stay within what's already accepted about this tool. So that feels like a really weird, tricky little path.

Mary Adkins: 24:33

Yeah. That's interesting. And I think that's a really good point, too. Like, the time, the timeline is not going to be two years for all book types and publishers. I mean, I also, I think for like the quote unquote big five publishers, like the really big publishers, I think because they're such. Sprawling institutions, and they have all these departments and moving pieces and production, you know, when things get bigger, they just take longer because there are more people who have to be contacted and things have to be calendar. So I think it tends to be slower for, like, the mega size publishers. And then for smaller publishers, it can go faster. Although I know someone who just sold a book to 1 of the big publishers and like, it's coming out in less than a year. Like, she sold it and it's coming out in less than a year. So that's pretty fast. Okay.

Steph Hall: 25:20

Yeah, that is really fast. I want to hear a little bit more about your memoir. Can you share anything about it as it's, you know, I'm sure you're done written it, but

Mary Adkins: 25:29

I would love to. Well, actually this is a great example. So I have a really small publisher for my memoir. So I'm not actually done with it. Like we're still working on it and it's going to come out in the spring. So yeah, it is a much shorter timeline, which I really like because of what we were just talking about. Like when this comes out, I want it to feel like I'm still in it and not like, this is something I wrote two years ago and haven't thought about since, but it is. It's the story of having three miscarriages in a year. And how that really changed me and so my threeness is very much a part of this story because I had never had pregnancy loss before I'd never had fertility issues before I had one son and he was three years old at the time and my pregnancy with him had been relatively easy and childbirth with him had been relatively easy. No women that I knew of in my family, like, I eventually found out I had a couple of distant relatives who had pregnancy loss or fertility issues. But, like, I didn't know about them at the time. So, like, my mom, my sister, I didn't know neither. Neither of them, I should say had miscarried and so. I really, I, I was pretty naive and even though I was 39, I thought like, this will be fine. This will be great. I'm going to have a second kid. And that's just not, that's not what happened. And so when. I first miscarried. I did a, I, I responded to it in a way that I now realize was very textbook three. It was like back to the, back to the grind. We're going to pretend this didn't happen. I'm not going to have any feelings about it. I'm going to fix it. I'm going to get pregnant again. I'm going to have a healthy pregnancy and this will just be like a blip on my past that I never really had to deal with. And. Then when that didn't work a 2nd time, it was pretty existential. And then when it didn't work a 3rd time, it was very existential. It was like. Wow, what if I can't actually make my body have a baby? That means, what does that mean? Does that mean I'm not actually controlling my own life or my feelings? Because if so, that is not how I have lived for 40 years and that is terrifying and it was terrifying. I mean, it was. It was earth shattering. It's why I ended up writing a memoir about it because it was it was like my entire life, like I feel like I have metamorphosized into a different human being because of that, like, and it's not that like I had control before and now I don't, right. It's that I never did, but I thought I did. And I. I didn't realize how much I needed to believe that like, I was really relying on that fact that like, oh, I can craft a life. I can just, I can do this if I do everything right. If I show up, if I do the, you know, if I'm, it took different forms over the years, but shortly before this year that I wrote about happened, the form it had taken was like. I got really health and sort of spirituality conscious in the pandemic. I was like, I'm going to meditate every day. I'm going to be vegan. I'm going to cut alcohol. Like, I had this sort of chat, like literally made a checklist on my wall of like, this is such a three way to do it of like, every day did I do all my wellness practices? Like I was going to ace wellness.

Steph Hall: 29:20

mm hmm.

Mary Adkins: 29:20

Because it was like, well, this is how you craft a life, like, and that's who the person I was when this started happening to me. And so the fact that I couldn't, like. You know, it was like I was doing all the right things in a pregnancy. I was taking my prenatal vitamins. I was like getting lots of sleep. I was limiting my stress. I was avoiding all the things you're supposed to avoid and it still didn't work out and yeah, it's interesting sometimes to think of like, I wonder how this sounds to other Enneagram types because to me, that was. It was completely shocking. It was like, the fact that I cannot make this happen, then I don't know who I am and I don't understand how the universe works.

Steph Hall: 30:13

Yeah, we're just not accustomed to that.

Mary Adkins: 30:16

Yeah.

Steph Hall: 30:17

Yeah. That and it makes a lot of sense and I feel like I recognize that in myself too and just recently I was having this thought of like, oh wait, it's not like life is not like a series of like All right, now I'm at this rung and then I go to the next one. Like, it's not like a series of things you can sort out and like have them all tied up perfectly before you go to the next level. It's just like all happening at once. And I'm like, that is so unsettling. And it's really basic. I'm sure other types are like, yeah, of course. But for me, I don't like that, you know?

Mary Adkins: 30:50

I don't either. It's really hard for me. I keep having to tell myself, like, relearn that and remind myself of that. Same. It's like, life is not just a series of projects or, like, semesters. It's not like school and I'm not gonna get a grade. And I'm not acing it or not acing it. That is so hard for me to get my head around still.

Steph Hall: 31:16

Absolutely. It's strange. And I think for threes, especially like, you know, you grew up in school, you, you do all these different things and. Especially, you know, for you, you had a lot of school, right? And so you had a lot of opportunities to be like, this is how the world works and I can ace it. And then, it just doesn't.

Mary Adkins: 31:36

No. And it's, I think one thing that I realized over the year that I, that I wrote my memoir about is that I had always for so long, I had avoided being in the present by working towards some future goal and I was doing that again and again in my. In my year of fertility struggle and miscarriages because it would be like it was always the future. Like I could, I, I could not and did not want to fit in my grief over having lost a pregnancy. Like, that was way too hard. Much easier was to buy a fertility tracker plan when I was gonna conceive the next time, like, look ahead, do any kind of positive thinking work I needed to do, you know, it was like, let me just move on to the next thing and and I realized I had always I've done that my whole life. I mean. I'm like someone who I remember, like, I would go through a breakup and then go home from the breakup and make a dating profile. Because it was like, I need to move on to the next thing because I cannot sit in this feeling of like, whatever it was, loss. Discomfort, sadness,

Steph Hall: 33:09

Feelings, just broadly.

Mary Adkins: 33:12

Yes, it was like, let me just, I'll start planning. Time to start planning.

Steph Hall: 33:17

Yeah. And I think that's also potentially like the expert level reframe is why we sometimes get categorized with type 7.

Mary Adkins: 33:25

Mm hmm.

Steph Hall: 33:26

cause they also avoid their emotions to an extent. But I think we probably do it in different ways.

Mary Adkins: 33:32

That's interesting. Yeah, because they're, I mean, they're like, on to the next thing, right? Like, moving on to the next thing. So it is actually very similar.

Steph Hall: 33:43

Yeah, I think it's, it's both avoidance of emotion. I think that because threes have the self deceit thing. I think it's like, I'm going to be okay by believing I am okay and showing up in the world as if I'm okay. And that will make me okay. Instead of being like, actually, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Like my, like the reality is the reality.

Mary Adkins: 34:06

Yeah. I remember, I After my first speaking of the self deceit thing after my first miscarriage, I was like, I'm going to move on. I'm going to get pregnant again, you know, and then like a couple months into that, wasn't kind of quote unquote working. Like, I was still sad. And I thought that the fact that I was still sad meant something needed to be fixed. And so I booked a therapy session with a new therapist, and I went into this therapy session and I was basically like. I had this thing happen to me and I don't feel like I'm doing well, so I need us to fix me, you know, and she, she said, I remember it like it was just so profound this, this moment, she said that I was doing all this planning and trying to get pregnant again and trying to lose weight from my pregnant weight. I'd gained from my first pregnancy. She's like, because you're trying to, it. to fill this hole. That's what you're doing. You're trying to fill this hole. And I thought I got it. And I said, oh, and you're saying I should just let the hole be empty for a while. And she like almost laughed and she's like, no, you don't get to decide when the hole fills. And it was like, oh shit. I don't know if I

Steph Hall: 35:26

that.

Mary Adkins: 35:26

on your podcast. Yeah, like, whoa. I mean, that was, yeah. That was one of those kind of mind blowing moments in that, in that, year. Because no, no. Who likes that?

Steph Hall: 35:41

no, we don't like that.

Mary Adkins: 35:43

Mm mm.

Steph Hall: 35:44

I have so many more questions about that, but I also want to get to the topic that I really want to hear your thoughts on. Which is each Enneagram type and you use the Enneagram. I know this is like a really hard pivot. I wish I was better at transitions.

Mary Adkins: 35:58

No, it's great.

Steph Hall: 35:59

Like part of the reason I was thinking through this too is because, you know, threes are Like the center of the heart center, but we have such a hard time like trying to run away from our emotions. But I think that returning to them actually does help us in writing honestly. So I would love to hear more about your work with different writers of different Enneagram types and how you can use the Enneagram to help them set goals.

Mary Adkins: 36:26

yeah. Okay, great. I love talking about this. So the first thing I like to do is like, it's just have them test and and also tell them since, you know, now I know you too, but like, since people. Like me and you do sometimes test inaccurately. Like I stress that they should read through the descriptions and see what really truly resonates because I feel like, and I'm curious if you, I do feel like when people read the one that really resonates, it usually does feel like a, like, Oh, like my husband is an eight. And when he read the description of an eight, he was like, I feel so exposed. I have never read anything that. describes me more accurately than this. So I have them, I have, I, I introduce them to the Enneagram, try to help them figure out their type. And then we just discuss how this might come up in their writing life. And I just ask them to be mindful of it. I do tend to see some, some patterns. So for instance, threes, eights tend to not really have a hard time finishing because we You know, we tend to be the hustlers who are like, I'm going to get this done and then it does get done, but again, this is just, these are just trends. Obviously, I'm not speaking for all these types in my program, but like the, I will say that, like, threes and eights, I do notice we'll have more burnout. Like, I'm aware of people's numbers, so I'm watching them as they're working on their book and, like, kind of noticing, trying to pick up on things that they may not even realize. So, like, threes and eights will burn out like, not kind of, because they're impatient, want it to be done. Whereas, like, fours will often get really down on themselves, like, you know, a sort of, like, why am I even doing, like, there can be some drama around, like, why am I even doing this? I don't. I'm not capable of writing this. And then they're okay again. Or they might get really hurt by if they send something out for feedback too early, which I encourage people not to do for this reason. But like, they, just more sensitive, I think. Five. We all have sometimes, you know, we all have our ways of procrastinating, but I think research is a common procrastination tool for writers and fives, especially I think are susceptible to this because they want to nail it perfectly. Like, I had a 5. I worked with a 5 writer who. like, I've been researching for 20 years. She's like, I have so much research. I'm like, stop researching. You have enough.

Steph Hall: 39:06

Yeah, yeah.

Mary Adkins: 39:08

Yeah, sevens. I don't know. Sevens are funny. I, I feel like sevens, I mean, it sounds kind of expected, I guess, but I, I feel like sevens. Can be a little bit more like, I'm going to start over. I'm going to do something new, you know, and it's like, well, like, it feels So, like, let's find a way that you can actually, like, tie a bow on this, this 1 for now, and then do that 1 or do them simultaneously. But, like, let's not completely abandon this other 1. Yeah, I mean, those are the most, no, I do have, yeah, I, it's interesting because I would say, like, the numbers I've mentioned tend to be the most common numbers that I work with.

Steph Hall: 39:49

Okay. So I think we just missed one, two, six, and nine,

Mary Adkins: 39:54

Oh, yeah,

Steph Hall: 39:55

which is interesting.

Mary Adkins: 39:57

Yeah, and I, you know, it's not to say that I don't work with those numbers. I'm just having trouble thinking of specific people right now.

Steph Hall: 40:06

Well, I noticed in my work that like, I'll, I'll, I'll have patterns with who will hire me for like coaching or whatever.

Mary Adkins: 40:14

Mm hmm.

Steph Hall: 40:15

I think that's, that's pretty common.

Mary Adkins: 40:17

that's probably pretty common. Yeah, and I think. So, like, with, with numbers where, so, yeah, I'll just kind of, so I'm aware of, like, what ones, you know, twos, sixes, and nines tend to struggle with. So it would be, like, if someone was a two, I might be, like, just sort of. Not assuming they're gonna have a particular kind of struggle, but it's like, I might just be looking for it. Just if it comes up, you know, like, is this person struggling to finish, because it's like, a mom who's like, I don't have time, because she like, feels bad if she carves out time to work on her book. She feels like she needs to be there for all these other people. You know, it's like, I'm just gonna be attuned to that, so that I can potentially point that out to her, if it is something that I see that might be going on.

Steph Hall: 41:06

Yeah.

Mary Adkins: 41:06

Because I mean, it's, what I think is so cool about the Enneagram is that it's, about motivation, right? So like, and motivation is, I don't wanna sound like some kind of meme or something like,like writing a book is 90% motivation, 10% work. But it is a lot motivation. And so what, how do we mo, how do we keep up The motivation to actually finish doing it is like a big part of doing it. And. Another way that it comes up is not just like looking for pitfalls, but it's also in deciding what kind of goals to set to move forward. Like, the typical goal with, with, or the one that's kind of the most used is word count with writing a book. Like, you hit your word count every day, write a thousand words a day, write 10, 000 words a week or whatever it is, but I, you know, that's not the only goal. Like, you could do page numbers if you're writing by hand, you could do amount of time, you could do 20 minute spurts. You could do, my favorite is what I call the scenes method where you read like one scene a day, no matter how long it is. And like, yeah, A story because I teach long form narrative, so it's all stories. So it's like a story is just a collection of scenes. And if you write 70 of those, you're done. So it's like just jumping from lily pad to lily pad scene to scene. And I find that like that kind of method tends to work well for a lot of the types, frankly, because it just provides a lot more flexibility. So, so like for a three, I love it because It helps me not get to burnout because if I commit to writing 1, 500 words a day, I probably am going to do that come hell or high water, even if it affects my mental health or my relationships or my physical health or whatever. I'm like, meet the goal. But if the goal is more flexible than I can. Meet it and like, check off that box in my head while also letting it kind of expand or contract, depending on my other life obligations. So it's less likely to become like an impediment

Steph Hall: 43:23

Yeah. That makes sense because I think, and I love that you, well, actually I hate that you pointed it out, but I appreciate that I'm not alone. Like that threes and eights do experience that level of burnout because I think I was burned out before I started writing my last book, or like this one that I turned in in March, and I reached a level of burnout that I, like, had no idea was possible,

Mary Adkins: 43:49

really.

Steph Hall: 43:50

and it was just so horrible.

Mary Adkins: 43:55

What was it?

Steph Hall: 43:56

Well, it was just like, so a few different things. One, it was having a really hard time battling with the sense of inadequacy. Like every time I would sit down to write, that's what would come up. Right. Of being like, people are going to give this a one star review, which they are. Right. Like they are. And I remember

Mary Adkins: 44:15

if it was, like, the best book ever, they would still give it a one star review.

Steph Hall: 44:18

And sometimes it's like, well, the binding fell apart and it's like, well, like I can't really, you know, do anything about that. But I like on my very first one, like I said, it was a short timeframe and I think There are, there's a lot now that when I look back at it, I would be like, I don't really agree with most of this. Right. I shouldn't say that, but it's true. And I would read the one star reviews and be like, I actually agree with that, you know, but this, but I think in that scenario, I kind of had an out, right? Because I was like, well, it was like a short timeframe and it was maybe not the thing that I wanted to write the most. And with this one, it feels like I know so much more now, and I really want to do a good job, and I really care about this, and I still just felt like, is any of this interesting or new? Like, every time I'd sit down. So it was that, and then it was also setting ambitious goals for myself, and then not hitting them. And then being so self critical about not hitting them.

Mary Adkins: 45:22

Yeah, Yeah, I, yeah. I relate to all that.

Steph Hall: 45:27

so, and then it just like turned it, like, I think I just have a lifelong, like disposition, like toward depression anyway. So when all those things were going wrong I would just spiral, you know? And, and I ended up like, it got so bad that I just had to like take months off of like doing nothing. Like, like, Oh, I can work for an hour today, basically. And I did all like, kind of like your healthcare checklist, but it was more so like, these are the things I know I need to do, even when I don't feel like it and like, go outside, meditate, go to a workout class, like eat something, do a cold plunge, like get involved with like a social group, like all of these little things and then chipped away at it for like six months and then it started to lift.

Mary Adkins: 46:22

Wow, like, that's a, I think that's such a good example of, like, how those kind of wellness practices are not Like, doing that is not in itself bad, it's like, like that healed, helped healed you because we are physical beings who need to do things like have sunshine and like socialize with other humans and Yeah, that's really interesting.

Steph Hall: 46:48

but it also helped me see like how much the self criticism was the problem for me.

Mary Adkins: 46:53

Yeah.

Steph Hall: 46:53

Like, if I had been able to be more self accepting I think I would have had an easier time with all of it, you know?

Mary Adkins: 47:01

Yeah. Well, and it's like such a three thing that we over invest in our work and our productivity. And, like, it's so funny because, you know, I wrote this memoir about, like, how that year helped me see that clearly that my value is not my productivity and that I, I can't put it there. Or I will up without value, without valuing myself without perceived value, I should say. And so like in the story, it's this arc of me realizing that, but like, you know, the way that our stories tend to end is, is sort of like, like if someone has a perspective shift, there's this kind of implication that like, and then everything was different and I. I'm not the same, like I said earlier, like I do feel like I've metamorphosized because I see the world differently, but that doesn't mean that my habits have just changed that quickly, you know, it's still, I still will habitually, because I've done it for so long at the end of the day, sort of run through a checklist of how productive I was, and if I was productive, I feel good about myself.

Steph Hall: 48:21

Mm hmm.

Mary Adkins: 48:23

Which I don't think it, I, I don't like that. You know, I, I, it doesn't lead to good places doing that. Like it leads to the kind of burnout we're talking about, I think when it's like, I get to feel good about myself if I was productive. The inverse of that is. That if I'm not, I don't. And like, right? So if like, that's the thing you're repeating or relying on every day is like, I was productive, so I'm good. I'm a good person. I was productive, so I'm doing life right. Then when you're not, like, it's only natural that you'll feel like you've done something wrong or Yeah.

Steph Hall: 49:11

I mean, yeah, it's like the inherent ableism of Type 3, in a sense. Yeah. As you're, you know, finishing up your memoir, are you also having people in your incubator who are doing memoir as well?

Mary Adkins: 49:26

Yes, they are. Yeah. So that's really interesting, like, to work with them on that. Because I don't know, it's fun, you know, I think, I think writing memoir is so healing for so many of us, it's, it's can be really beautiful, like, to turn, like, it's not to turn a past experience into something beautiful, it's more like watching people and helping people understand what happened to them and in a new light, and that's what I think is so cool about it, like, because we can see it in a new light, like, like with my story, I mean, as it was happening, I didn't see it the way that I see it now. And it was in writing the memoir that I could, could look at the fact that right after my first miscarriage, I was like, let's get back to work and fix this. Like it was in writing the memoir about that, that I could see what I was doing, like, Oh, that's what I was doing. So writing became this cool means of. Really like therapy in a way.

Steph Hall: 50:44

Well, it's like, expressive writing. Have you heard of James Pennebaker?

Mary Adkins: 50:48

No, I didn't

Steph Hall: 50:50

He's a social psychologist. And he writes about how the practice of expressive writing, which a lot of his experiments use it as like a treatment, meaning like, three days or five days of, of doing like expressive writing about a deep trauma for 20 minutes a day. Not with the intention of ever reading it again, but just for the. Reason of like getting it out there and getting it really vulnerable. And there's something about verbalizing it, like, just putting the words together that helps with the healing process.

Mary Adkins: 51:20

that's really fascinating. I do think, I don't know if it was his work, but I read about some work like that in The Body Keeps the Score. There's a section on that in that book that I thought was really fascinating.

Steph Hall: 51:34

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he, he references James Pennebaker in that. Yeah. Okay. So tell us a little bit more about where we can find all of these good things. You have a podcast, you have the incubator.

Mary Adkins: 51:47

Yeah, I have a podcast called the 1st draft club if you're, because if you're listening here, you must like podcasts. So I taught, I share writing tips and strategies on that and there are a bunch of episodes we've done, like, they're in their 6th season. So there are a lot of those and then, yeah, the, the way that I only work with writers one way, which is through this, this program I run called The Book Incubator. So they can check that out at thebookincubator. com. And it's for people working on novels and memoirs. So I only work with people writing books and people writing books that are like a long form narrative, whether it's fiction or nonfiction.

Steph Hall: 52:26

I love that.

Mary Adkins: 52:27

And I have a YouTube channel where I share tips too. So I'm all over the

Steph Hall: 52:31

awesome. Okay, so I will link everything in the show notes so that everyone can check those out. My final questions, I ask everyone these tell me about a book that has shaped you, refreshed you, or helped you in the last year.

Mary Adkins: 52:46

I love Big Magic. Have you read Big Magic?

Steph Hall: 52:49

Mm

Mary Adkins: 52:50

It's a favorite. I, I have re read it a couple of times, and I... just think it's so liberating. It's by Elizabeth Gilbert, who wrote Eat, Pray, Love and a couple of other books. And, but she's well known for Eat, Pray, Love. And I just think it's such a, if you're someone who kind of, you, you're creative, like if you're creative at all or you want to be creative at all, I think it's, it's really like a must read. And it's also fun and easy to read.

Steph Hall: 53:21

Yeah. Okay. I, I read it a few years ago, but I feel like I should reread it. I think I felt so much pressure in the concept of the idea, like, being a living being who will escape if you don't take advantage of it right now. I was like, oh my like, that's such a three response, but.

Mary Adkins: 53:41

it so she has this, this thesis that ideas are kind of their own sovereign entities that are kind of floating around looking for human partners to bring them to life. And if an idea chooses you, then it's like asking you to partner with it. And you can say yes or no. And if you say no, it goes to partner with someone else. And the reason I think I didn't feel pressure and don't feel pressure from that is that. I love that idea that it will partner with someone else, so you're not responsible. Like, it's like, it could be you, but it could also be someone else. And I also love the idea that if I don't end up partnering with that idea, another one will come along,

Steph Hall: 54:16

Yeah,

Mary Adkins: 54:17

I've also found to be true. So it's like, it sort of feels like, like they're unlimited dance partners and you can just, if you don't dance with this one, you'll dance with the next one.

Steph Hall: 54:26

Yeah. Yeah, I'll have to check it out again. I think I'm really different now than I was, you know, when I first tried reading it, so. I think I read, like, a good 75%, so I haven't fully read it.

Mary Adkins: 54:38

yeah, and and no totally I feel like it when I've read books at different periods of time They've struck me completely differently.

Steph Hall: 54:46

Yeah, yeah. Okay. That's a great one. Last question. What is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Mary Adkins: 54:55

Well as a three Someone told me to do something once that has stuck with me even though I haven't done it Which is she was like a very good exercise for a three is to create something and then don't share it with anyone.

Steph Hall: 55:17

Yeah,

Mary Adkins: 55:18

I take that back. I've done it with some poems, but I'm not sure those really count because like, I'm not that proud of those anyway. You know, like that's not hard for me not to share those, but like the idea that I would create something and feel good about it and not share it with anyone is really, It's almost impossible for me to imagine it, so, it could, that probably means it could be a really interesting exercise.

Steph Hall: 55:40

Yeah, well, thank you so much for sharing and for being here. I am so glad we were able to chat about this I did listen to your podcast some and I was like, oh, this will be really fun I I kind of had a guess that you might be a three, but I didn't want to put you in any boxes before we before I got on the phone. So, I really appreciate your time and i'm so looking forward to reading your memoir finishing palm beach. But I'm, I'm really thrilled that you're able to join me.

Mary Adkins: 56:06

Yeah. Thanks for having me. This has been a delight.

Steph Hall: 56:09

Of course.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:11

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify