Talking Worst-Case Scenarios as an Enneagram 6 with Marta Gillilan

Marta G: 1:30

I will say that this is a element of authority stuff there with a six as well as that we feel very responsible for our actions and we're trying not to project, but in the process we project. So if it were me, you know, projection means I'm taking what's true about me and assuming that about everybody. And so in my head, I'm assuming that I'm going to be at fault if I miss the flight or I'm gonna be at fault if I chose the wrong Microwave or couch or whatever. I'm gonna be at fault if I made a bad decision because I didn't think it through You gotta think it through and so that whole inner thought committee thing about thinking it through is really a way of saying That's what responsible authoritarian figures should do So if I'm making a decision, and no one else is making it with me, well then I'm, want to consult someone. That's what would be the responsible thing. And so it's not like the right thing, and it's not like what I feel, but it really is this responsibility, authority thing, because we desperately don't, we desperately want to be trusted, and at the same time we don't trust others. So, it's a real... It's a real merry go round there. Like, if I can't trust myself, then why would I trust anyone else?

Samson Q2U Microphone & Golden Delicious 3-2: 3:06

Welcome back to another episode of any Graham in real life, a podcast where we explore how to apply our any grim knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host Steph barren hall. And today I'm talking with my friend Marta Gilleland. Now I'll share a little bit more about Marta in a moment, but here is her official sort of introduction. Marta has taught in public and private schools, both in the U S and in Europe. Marta has a master's degree in global leadership from fuller seminary and has over 25 years of experience in teaching leadership teams, small group dynamics and individual coaching. Marta has extensive practical experience interweaving the complexities of the Enneagram. Into everyday life coaching for all types of people. Marta teaches any grim in classes, small groups and retreats, but her passion is coaching and mentoring relationship building and leadership development. She's traveled extensively, but calls Kansas city, Missouri, her home. And I got to meet Marta when we were both students in the Chestnut Paice Enneagram academy. And to graduate from the program, you have to do case studies in small groups, meaning you have to meet. I think we met a couple of times a month. And we had to write these different projects together. So we got to know each other then. And we also have been in a book group for the last year and a half or so. Um, where we explore the Enneagram and talk about Instagram and our work, everything that's happening for us individually. And all of the women in this group are also coaches from the Chestnut pies, any Graham academy. And you've heard some of the others on the podcast like Shelly Prevost and Ellie Pugh. And today I asked mark to come on the podcast and share her story now, Marta. Isn't Enneagram six. So she talks a lot about what that's like and kind of what that looks like. You already heard a little bit in the intro. but she also talks about what happens for a six when the worst case scenario does happen. So today we're talking about her process. Grieving her, the loss of her husband and what it was like walking through that time As he underwent cancer treatments, as well as everything that has happened since then. And I just really have such gratitude for Marta's perspective and her wisdom and her kindness coming to share with us today because it's not only an insight into the Enneagram, but also into how to support other people. Um, when our loved ones are, are. Processing grief. I think in our culture, we have a hard time with grief. We kind of say, oh, they're dealing with it really well when somebody's. He seems to just pick up and keep going. And today Marta talked a little bit about what that process was actually like for her and what it means to be okay. And not okay. At the same time. And especially this week and these past few weeks, there's been so much grief the world over and I just. Have such compassion for people who are. Grieving And so this episode is not just about the Enneagram, but more so about. How do we support each other? And how do we live compassionately? Um, because none of us escape grief in our lives. Um, and so Marta brings some real insight and she also brings in that trademark six wit and humor into the conversation. Um, and. I just appreciate her perspective so much. I wish that we'd had more time to talk because she's told me some really funny stories about what it's like to be in Enneagram six. Um, and. I think in, in a classic six way, she's able to hold both like the darkness and the heaviness and the grief as well as the humor and the lightness. And she's, she can be a bit self-deprecating too. And so I just think she's very endearing. Um, and I, I just deeply appreciate her sharing. Herself and her story and her perspective with all of us. And I also want to mention that because I have known Marta for a few years. I've also experienced her leading. Uh retreats and a group coaching sort of exercises that were really impactful and transformational. So if you are looking for somebody to teach the Enneagram or to guide you through it in a, with a more spiritual perspective, I definitely recommend Marta. Her website is not quite live yet, but you can grab her email and I recommend reaching out to her and I will update everything when her website is live. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Marta Gil. Lam.

Steph Barron Hall: 7:24

Well, Marta, hello. Welcome to the podcast.

Marta G: 7:27

Hi Steph. Thanks for having me.

Steph Barron Hall: 7:30

Of course. I'm so excited to talk with you about the Enneagram. I don't think I've had very many sixes on the podcast so far. so I think that this will be really helpful and really interesting and I've learned about so much about type six from you. so yeah, I'm really excited to, to dive in.

Marta G: 7:48

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 7:50

So to begin, I'd love to hear a little bit about you, your background. How you came into the Enneagram, all that good stuff.

Marta G: 7:58

Yeah. I'm a pastor. I pastor along with, two other guys. And so, I'm a mom and my children are adults now. I went to seminary for probably 15 years ago, somewhere maybe 18 years ago. And, I learned about the Enneagram there in seminary, just kind of through some other students, but I didn't buy it. I was, like, skeptical from the get go, which should have been a hint, but I was just like, I think this stuff is a bunch of bull, and then, you know, there was this symbol on there that looked really cultic, and I was like, this is not okay. And then, of course... I, when I started to read more about it and it was encouraged to find out more about myself to be more self aware, then it took a whole nother process to find my number.

Steph Barron Hall: 8:55

So, what were the texts that you started reading that you're like, Oh no, this actually makes more sense for

Marta G: 9:01

Yeah, so I have a story, I'll tell a story. I was in a staff meeting once and this guy was buggin bad, I mean, like lighting me up. I mean, he was so mad, I mean, mad enough for me to, and I've always had like, I have access to anger. I don't know why. And I've actually felt very like in a very emotional person. And even when I took the tests, I tested as a two, but I never, I never sat right with me. I was like, I'm not a two. I'm just not that helpful.

Steph Barron Hall: 9:33

ha

Marta G: 9:33

Usually twos are helpful and I'm just, and the back end of it, I'm not that helpful. And so I, went and read B's, B, Chestnut, 27 types

Steph Barron Hall: 9:44

hmm. Ha ha ha ha. Mm

Marta G: 9:45

and then I also had read The Wisdom of the Enneagram, but I used it more because they're pretty thick. I used it more like a resource book, so I try to flip through it like I'm going to find out. What number that guy is. I mean, I don't know what number I am, but I'm really going to figure his psyche out and try to figure out why I'm so mad and what makes him tick. Why does he do this all the time? And I kept reading and I kept reading and I was sitting there thinking and I, and I got to the six and I turned to my husband and I said, so like who's on the committees in your head?

Steph Barron Hall: 10:20

Mm hmm. Mm hmm hmm

Marta G: 10:21

do you have pictures of people that come up in your head when you're thinking about, you know, what to do? He said. What are you talking about? And he's a, he was a five. And I'm like, you know, like when you, when you think about things and think about how things go down, like who you're going to, you know, ask for questions and get advice from who's on your committees in your head. He said, me, I'm the expert in everything. And I went, wait, you don't have like, Kim needs your head or like flow charts, like, you know, of thinking through things. And he goes, no, I have no idea what you're talking about. Everything in my head I've read and I, everything comes from me. And I thought, Oh, I'm the six, not the other guy. It was me. So it was a real light bulb moment to think I, a project a lot, which I didn't catch on to. And I still do. It's a matter of habit. I do have committees in my head. I thought everybody had committees that they were consulting about everything. And, um, the whole flow chart in my head of prepping and planning, I just seemed to me the smart thing to do. Like, why doesn't everyone do this?

Steph Barron Hall: 11:43

Yeah. I had a six, tell me that when she planned her flow chart, she was like, okay, these are the decision points and then these are the points where I need more information. And she already had that planned out.

Marta G: 11:55

Yes. And the thing is, is I, I don't even know I'm doing It It comes second nature, like that flowchart just came and went, and I'm on to the next one. So, there's something comforting in the process of creating it, that actually gets rid of whatever the problem was.

Steph Barron Hall: 12:14

Yeah. Do, do you remember the flow chart?

Marta G: 12:18

Not often. If I did, I don't think I'd do it again. I think it's actually not the content of the flowchart, but the process of creating it that helps. calm the anxiety, which for me, I never really, really connected with. I never, that's why it took me so long to type because I never thought I was a fearful person. I thought maybe an angry person, I would do that or an emotional person. but really I was square in my head and I was thinking about how I felt. I

Steph Barron Hall: 12:51

Mmm.

Marta G: 12:52

it. It wasn't like the center of my knowing. It was square in my head the whole time.

Steph Barron Hall: 12:59

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I want to hop back to the fear versus anger thing in a second, but I'm curious if now you can name, like, the committee, or are they specific voices, specific people? Are they, like, parts of self? Mm hmm.

Marta G: 13:13

they are specific people for me and I know other sexes don't have them, but they're usually really influential people in my life or experts in a certain field. So if I need a medical question, I have my team of doctors. If I have a, theological question. I have my team of theologians that I trust and some that I don't and Or if it's like just everyday life, I have friends that I would go. Oh, this is the person I'm gonna ask about that

Steph Barron Hall: 13:45

Yeah. Okay, so it's, it's not just like committees in your head. It's like you have a list of who's on that committee, but in real life you go and talk to them.

Marta G: 13:55

Sometimes yeah, and sometimes I'll just consult them in my head and then make my own decision because I have over time Realized how crazy that makes people like it's really annoying and I just thought I would like to be asked my advice. So why wouldn't someone else be like to be asked? But I have a lot of interior designer friends and I just moved in there. It was like, Oh brother, here she comes again.

Steph Barron Hall: 14:20

Oh no.

Marta G: 14:22

She's going to ask him what couch to buy. And I've learned my lesson on that because usually they tell me, Oh, you should do this, but then I can't afford it. So

Steph Barron Hall: 14:30

Yeah.

Marta G: 14:31

I don't take everyone's advice and sometimes that's hurtful. So now I'm like, I can do this. I can choose a couch.

Steph Barron Hall: 14:38

Yeah. Or, or are you like thinking, well that's not actually what I want. It's like looking for reassurance. I've heard Sixes talk about doing that before.

Marta G: 14:47

Yeah. I think a lot of it is about affirmation. And so there's a little nuance there between needing feedback for admiration and needing feedback for affirmation. I think success, well, I'll just speak for myself. I have for a very long time just thought I, I can't, as there's more of a self doubt than a self critical thing. I'm not that hard on myself in a lot of ways, but I do think I might not be right. Because I'm not an expert in this. I'm certainly not an expert in interior design. So, I need to consult someone who is, so that I don't regret it later on. Regrets are a real, tender place for a 6. Because we feel like, oh, we should have known better. We spend our lives prepping and mentally rehearsing everything.

Steph Barron Hall: 15:40

Mm hmm.

Marta G: 15:41

So when something happens that we didn't have in our bingo card

Steph Barron Hall: 15:46

Mm hmm.

Marta G: 15:48

It's, it's not good.

Steph Barron Hall: 15:50

Yeah. But that's almost where the self criticism comes in, it sounds like.

Marta G: 15:54

It is and it's like I should have known or I should have, why did I not think through that? Someone should have told me. Now here I am, regretting it. Which is interesting, because I've taught, you know, I've taught this for a while, and I know other people just don't live with that as much as they live with, you know, I can't fail, or I can't be wrong. It's a little different nuance than that. It is like, if only, more of a longing type of thing. If only I had just thought of something else, then, we wouldn't be in this spot. It's more of a responsibility thing. Like, I've gotta be the guardian. For the collective, whatever the collective might be.

Steph Barron Hall: 16:40

Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. and it also kind of makes sense why maybe a test would misidentify you as a 2.

Marta G: 16:49

Yeah. Or an eight. Like I thought, Nope, I'm an eight. I'm a protector. I'm trying to protect the group here. I'm trying to protect my family or my kids or whatever. Sorry world for being a six because none of these groups need my protection.

Steph Barron Hall: 17:03

Yeah. Well, tell me more about the anger versus fear concept and how that came up.

Marta G: 17:10

Yeah. I mean, it just is real accessible emotion for me. Like I, it's like, The lighting of a wick like it just goes and so I think as I've grown older less impulsive with the anger and I'm more in touch with how I feel but I do think because I was in my head it felt like a sense of justice which is why I always thought it I was innate but if I'm really honest with myself like I was about it too I'm not that moral I don't think in terms of right and wrong, like I, I wish I were more moral and I wish I had that kind of chart. I'm just thinking of all the facets of a side of an issue and I can, I can really see what everybody is thinking about in that situation or even feeling. Sometimes I can get into an emotion of what other people are feeling. and yet at the same time, it's not because it's right or wrong. it's really because There are other options. It's like a multiple choice questions that I love. Like, let's think through all the options. There's something calming about going through all the options. Again, a process, not the product or the content.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:24

Yeah. Well, that makes sense to me, and I actually also recently, oh, when, when we went on a retreat, I was flying to Dallas

Marta G: 18:33

Mm

Steph Barron Hall: 18:34

I think this is maybe like just a. Arrow to six, which I feel like I've really worn in that, that track over the last couple of years. but like we were driving to the airport and I was late, like later than I like to be.

Marta G: 18:53

hmm. Mm

Steph Barron Hall: 18:53

I was still going to get there at least an hour before takeoff. But I think for me, I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm panicking. So I was like, okay, if they don't let me check my bag, cause it's too late. I was like running through what I was going to do.

Marta G: 19:08

Ooh, very six ish.

Steph Barron Hall: 19:10

is this like, he's like, that's probably not going to happen. Like, I was like, no, no, no. I just, I just need to think through it and then I'll feel fine.

Marta G: 19:19

Yeah. Because you have an option. Again, and I thought it was a seven because I don't like being trapped. and I don't know what the real nuance is there. I've thought a lot about this, but there is something about when you have options or flow charts or whatever you want to call it, then you're not trapped. You can find a way out of whatever danger may be awaiting you or problem or snuffy or whatever.

Steph Barron Hall: 19:44

Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Cause there is that sense of like being backed into a corner when you don't have any way out.

Marta G: 19:53

And, and I will say that this is a element of authority stuff there with a six as well as that we feel very responsible for our actions and we're trying not to project, but in the process we project. So if it were me, you know, projection means I'm taking what's true about me and assuming that about everybody. And so in my head, I'm assuming that I'm going to be at fault if I miss the flight or I'm gonna be at fault if I chose the wrong Microwave or couch or whatever. I'm gonna be at fault if I made a bad decision because I didn't think it through You gotta think it through and so that whole inner thought committee thing about thinking it through is really a way of saying That's what responsible authoritarian figures should do So if I'm making a decision, and no one else is making it with me, well then I'm, want to consult someone. That's what would be the responsible thing. And so it's not like the right thing, and it's not like what I feel, but it really is this responsibility, authority thing, because we desperately don't, we desperately want to be trusted, and at the same time we don't trust others. So, it's a real... It's a real merry go round there. Like, if I can't trust myself, then why would I trust anyone else?

Steph Barron Hall: 21:24

Yeah. Do you think your subtype plays into that

Marta G: 21:27

Uh, I don't know. What do you think, Seth?

Steph Barron Hall: 21:31

Well, I do. I and I, do you wanna share about a little bit about finding your subtype?

Marta G: 21:35

Sure, sure. So, I knew some other sixes, especially on my staff, and one's a sexual six and one's a social six. And we just all assumed that I was a self pressed six, because I'm friendly and nice and warm and all of the things that are described in the book. Be Chestnut's book about the 27 subtypes because these other sixes were much, we're all different. And you, as everyone knows in the Enneagram world, the sixes have the most varied subtypes. They are extremely different. They're either counterphobic or phobic. Um, and when I was listening to one of Uranio's podcasts at CP Academy, which we did together, he was talking about comparing yourself to others of your type. And there were plenty of opportunities to be in groups with sixes. And I remember being in a group with a six and being on Zoom with all sixes and the social sixes and soft bars. There were just no sexual sixes there. And the room, the Zoom room was silent. Like. Nobody wanted to talk and it and everyone had that deer in the head like kind of look and the social sixes were like well who wants the lead and in my head I'm like oh I'm not like these guys

Steph Barron Hall: 22:57

Yeah.

Marta G: 22:57

was like okay guys here's what we're gonna do And just put myself out there and there was no social fear. And then as I look back, because they also say, look back into your twenties, don't let life kind of, cause life kind of adapts you to different things. And I looked back at my twenties, I'm like, I wasn't, I was never connected to fear. I did a lot of things as I look back that I'd forgotten on that others deemed as risky. I was like, I'm counterphobic. I didn't realize how counterphobic I was. but I think the sequence matters and we can get into talking about that because my other good friend who is a sexual six he has a different sequence. He's sexual, self present social and I have a very high social. So, That, I think, explains the difference between his more blunt, direct way of speaking in my little, roundabout way and being more, warm, I think, on the thing because of our sequence. But I do think both of us are counterphobic.

Steph Barron Hall: 24:05

Yeah, that makes sense. But I, I also do think that you just kind of tell it like it is. And sometimes in a really humorous way, which I just always appreciate, you know? but I, I

Marta G: 24:14

not all, not everyone appreciates that. Laughter.

Steph Barron Hall: 24:18

well, you know, Yeah. But I, I, I think not everyone in my life appreciates that either. But I do think that sometimes, like a sexual subtype with Type six will have a. Like, more clarity around their issues with authority. like they're a lot more aware that they have that problem. Mm

Marta G: 24:43

I wonder. I don't know if we're aware of it all the time as much as we are vocal about it. Whereas the social sex, social dominance probably wouldn't be concerned about what people... I mean, they can sense the power dynamic in rooms really quickly, and they don't want to upset the apple cart. And self prized ones are the most phobic, right? The most phobic of all the sixes, so they're not going to be as vocal about it, even if they do know or sense it about themselves. They probably won't say much about it in a group setting.

Steph Barron Hall: 25:19

Yeah, but you'll, you'll say like, oh, I don't know about that.

Marta G: 25:23

I do, and I sometimes regret it later, but... But it got me where I am now, which is both good and bad because I do think I have an ability to speak truth, as I see it, I mean, truth is like, well, we can talk about that too. But, I don't know if I'm always right on the one. So then I start to self doubt after I said it, but I'm not fearful of saying things. I'm not, I don't generally have social phobias. Which I know is a really big deal. Like, I didn't realize how hard it is for folks who are social repressed or even just a little bit anxious to get when they walk in a room of people. And that's never been a deal for me. And I'm like, well, I have to reconsider my subtype. I don't think that would be self pressed.

Steph Barron Hall: 26:14

Yeah.

Marta G: 26:15

Not to mention that I, now I, now I'm pretty sure that I'm self press repressed, which is like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm eating for dinner tonight. You know?

Steph Barron Hall: 26:26

It's five o'clock, Marta.

Marta G: 26:30

Oh yeah, yeah it is. I have no, no clue. I'll probably go out again. So those are the self press things that I tend to not, you know, I'm really out of touch with my body, which is another reason why I knew I wasn't an ape.

Steph Barron Hall: 26:44

Mm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense with the intelligence centers. one thing that is often said about sixes is about the worst case scenario thing. And I really like your reframe of opposite case scenario because, gosh, I find that to be so true.

Marta G: 27:02

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 27:03

Even if you say this is going to turn out bad, a six will be like, well, or it could, you know, they, they just got to flip it. So opposite case scenario.

Marta G: 27:14

Yeah, I think that's kind of how I started to see it because I think that the Sixers get a bad reputation on being worst case scenario people, and for sure we are. There's no doubt. I'm not denying that. but there are situations where, I've walked in a room where everyone was hopeless, downtrodden and absolutely like, and I'm like, guys, this is not all that. There's a, there's a ability for us to see all sides, I think. of course we're going to that we are. able to see the multi facets of things that others just can't often see.

Steph Barron Hall: 27:54

Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think that that can be a really useful thing about being a six. And then sometimes worst case scenario does happen.

Marta G: 28:05

Yeah, yeah. So, Steph, Steph knows my story, so I'll just go ahead and a podcast listener. So, I met you actually when my husband was very sick and he was on his last treatment for cancer. he fought it for six years and then a year and a half ago he passed away. Which was the worst case scenario, ever. I just... Yeah, cancer is, is... It, it, actually, both of my parents have had cancer. My father died of cancer and in the worst case scenario thinking, I thought I was going to get it. Like, I always thought, well, I'm going to die of cancer someday, so... And people would be like, oh my gosh! And I'm like, yeah, well, cancer. And then my husband got it. And I just thought, what is happening? It just set me off, off kilter. Yeah. I was super grateful to have the knowledge I had with the Enneagram though. Because, I've said this before, it was a long grieving process because we knew, oh, about a year and a half in, that it wasn't curable. and so. You know, it was always one, one treatment after another and with some hope, but each treatment brought less and less hope and it was harder and harder and more suffering obviously, but, I just think that for sex, grief feels a lot like fear.

Steph Barron Hall: 29:46

Yeah.

Marta G: 29:47

I don't know if it fit, you know, I've talked to other people about how sad they felt and, how shocked they felt. For me, it felt panicky. And, and this may have more to do with subtype, but I just thought, well, I mean, my immediate thought was I've got to quit everything. I can't work, I can't function, I will not be able to live without my husband.

Steph Barron Hall: 30:14

Yeah.

Marta G: 30:14

my everything and the only, I honestly believe, I have an underlying belief that the only reason why I really could do what I do is for, is because of him. And they're really, that was true, just to some extent, I'm learning how to do bills on my own. he was brilliant on so many levels that I opted to let him do that and he took care of us. So. Yeah, grief feels like, fear a lot of times, but it's also sadness and then, then all the emotions, if you're in your head, they get really jumbled up and you lose focus pretty quickly. And that's a fearful thing for someone in their head to lose focus.

Steph Barron Hall: 30:58

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think, When we met, and, and, you know, we started working on some projects within our, Enneagram training, I just remember you being like, Oh, yeah, I'm gonna keep doing these things. Like, I'm gonna schedule this. group to meet and things like that.

Marta G: 31:21

Yeah. Was that, was that weird for you? Like how is she doing this?

Steph Barron Hall: 31:25

Well, that part wasn't weird. The one that was weird was when you emailed us and you were like, well, he'll probably die this weekend. And I was like, oh my god.

Marta G: 31:36

Yeah, I mean, I'm laughing now, but, there's something disassociative that happens, and I don't really know the psychological term for it, but there was something that was very, it, it just really went into my head during that time. It was very matter of fact, right? It was, probably sounded blunt coming out. It's interesting now to talk to people who were observing me. At the time I didn't, I didn't realize how much I was being watched and as to how I was doing the grief process. but I do think people out of a good concern or are watching to see how does this person react when the worst thing happens? And so I'm always interested in that, but I think. To a certain degree, I just found some of my work and some of the Enneagram work to be, very distracting for my emotional work. Because it was so intense, it was so traumatic, and I have a lot to worry about when it came to my kids, and my finances, and my job. It just all seemed so overwhelmingly... difficult and with couple that with a six to think I can't do this but I can do that

Steph Barron Hall: 33:00

hmm.

Marta G: 33:01

so I can let people know I think this is the weekend and I you know I would try to update people through the blog I was writing but yeah it just is all jumbled up in there It's, for a head person, you may not see the emotion because they are probably gonna get prepared for the emotion.

Steph Barron Hall: 33:28

Yeah. Well, yeah, and I think, the, the moment I'm referring to was in November.

Marta G: 33:34

Mm hmm. Oh yeah. Wow, you remember these things. So the, the doctors had told us he had an emergency event, an emergent event, and we sat in the hospital for four hours, and then once we finally got back. into a room in the ER because that was in the middle of COVID.

Steph Barron Hall: 33:57

Mm

Marta G: 33:57

he said, the doctor said, it was so surreal. The doctor said, so I don't think you're going to make it out of the hospital. We should probably call hospice. And we weren't ready for that. Because we had pictured hospice as being well after treatment and not an emergent event. And I think I had to cancel something because of it. And that's probably why I was like, Hey guys, this is what's happening. Because we couldn't believe it. And it was like a... Like, I look back at that day and I'm like, That was like a soap opera. I remember Steve saying, Doctor, are you telling me I'm gonna die? I mean, we didn't even know the doctor's name because it was the ER doctor. And he said, Yes, you are.

Steph Barron Hall: 34:43

God.

Marta G: 34:45

He said, how many more days? You know how you picture a soap opera? Like, I feel like I'm watching it from above and seeing myself. I mean, I'm totally in a different world. And he goes, well, probably within three to five days. I mean, miraculously, he did not die, and he, healed himself. And there's a lot of little details that I don't want to share, but, it was the end of that treatment. And he, then went on hospice and he came in and out of hospice for probably another 4 or 5 months.

Steph Barron Hall: 35:18

Mm hmm.

Marta G: 35:19

Because he died in March then of 22. So that was November of 21. There was a whole other 5 months that he kind of healed himself and then went back. But he was, he was young. He was 58 and very healthy. Had never been sick a day in his life. So, he fought a good fight and, and really, it was really, really hard.

Steph Barron Hall: 35:45

Yeah. And hearing about your life and your relationship together is like, so, you just had such a beautiful Relationship.

Marta G: 35:58

Yeah, thank you. I wish you could have known him.

Steph Barron Hall: 36:02

Yeah.

Marta G: 36:02

He was a five and we, we met on a heavy level. I think people thought we were probably really strange, but, he's, he was just, he was a social five. So not your typical five, but he just was, he's a good one. He was brilliant and interesting and, good. He was so good.

Steph Barron Hall: 36:25

Yeah.

Marta G: 36:26

He's a good one.

Steph Barron Hall: 36:28

Yeah, Thanks

Marta G: 36:29

to get me crying.

Steph Barron Hall: 36:31

I know.

Marta G: 36:31

Yeah, I know.

Steph Barron Hall: 36:33

I think, yeah, every time you talk about him, you just,

Marta G: 36:39

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 36:39

I don't know, I like hearing your, your stories about him.

Marta G: 36:43

Yeah, we're realistic about him. He wasn't perfect, and we love to make fun, still, the funny things that happen. but I, I don't know anyone who, well, I just don't know anyone who really lived with gratitude like he did.

Steph Barron Hall: 36:59

Hmm.

Marta G: 37:00

And, so we have a lot to learn from that, like, and generosity, which is so interesting just to watch someone at the end of their life as the Enneagram 5, which I could probably talk about a little bit better because they're known for, you know, cordoning up their resources and their energy and all this, but boy, at the end of his life, he was taking visitors and... You know, opening the doors for people, it's just so interesting because he was so protective of his introverted time and his own time, but in the last few weeks, in the last few months, he just wanted to see people who we loved.

Steph Barron Hall: 37:43

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, thanks for sharing that.

Marta G: 37:48

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 37:51

I'm curious if you saw your type play out in this season. Like, being like, oh, I knew the worst case was gonna happen. Or if this one was not a worst case that you imagined.

Marta G: 38:10

I think what I imagined was worse than what happened. I don't know, Steph, I might take that back, so don't. Don't, you know, count on that. I think I imagined so much worse and so many days were good. And Steve was determined to live each day to the fullest. It really wasn't until the last month that he wasn't walking every day. And you know, he loved his dog and he talked to his brothers and his best friends all the time. And so there was just, there was just some precious time. And in fact, the covid thing was so interesting because he got to work for mom and we worked, you know, across bedrooms from each other. And so that was a gift. And I think the gratitude part was a real big thing. I don't know if I would have had the same reaction today if it happened in a shocking or surprised way. But we had So much time to grieve before he actually died and together and to say what we needed to say and to have the kids in because they're adults and to have them and his brothers and family. We had so much time to think about and talk about dying and death that, that when it actually happened. It was a, I mean, you'll hear this from several people, it was a relief from the suffering.

Steph Barron Hall: 39:48

Mm,

Marta G: 39:48

Cancer's no joke, man. It, it is painful, and you don't know when it's, you know, be the most painful. And it steals so much from your life. And your relationships, and your ability to work, and all those things. That, we had a long, long grief. I was really glad that he was no longer suffering. he, he was so sharp and so, witty and so smart that, I think it was mainly if, you know, like the chemo fog, that bothered him more than any other kind of pain because he, he really wanted to be able to be sharp and in his thoughts. And so when he went into hospice, there was a lot of drugs. to keep him from pain, but knowing him as I know him, he would not want to be in That

Steph Barron Hall: 40:44

yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think, I mean one, we're terrible at talking about death, like as a society, not you.

Marta G: 41:01

had to do with a lot. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 41:03

but I am,

Marta G: 41:06

Mm hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 41:08

grief is just hard, like, I think that's like the understatement of the century.

Marta G: 41:14

What else can you say? There's no real words that contain

Steph Barron Hall: 41:19

yeah.

Marta G: 41:20

it. I actually was talking to someone today whose wife has cancer and, I actually think this is where art comes in. And, art can do things that words can't do. A picture, or a portrait, or a film, or a song. or a poem. You know, laughing, but poetry was really something that I connected with. Because it's not real wordy, and it's not real heavy. It's something that is emotive, and you can get it, but you can't really... Explain it. There's no explanation to it. Because nothing, no explanation is going to make it okay.

Steph Barron Hall: 41:57

Mm hmm. What do you think that would be helpful, especially for a head type, you know, like that getting into your body, getting into your emotions?

Marta G: 42:12

Yeah, Well, I do think walks and nature are a really good thing. although I didn't do it, but my husband did. He was up high and he walked every day and it really helped him. I think that people tend to tend to give us birth. and information and that just was difficult for us. We just couldn't read and we couldn't, I mean, it was, there's just, our brains were just too overloaded. So again, I think art was good. Poetry, music. I love seeing, you know, I love Broadway. I love going to see musicals and all that. so just taking someone out of their head and putting They live in an environment that they, that's somewhat normal. Like, ugh, we just long for normality. Even if it was a fight. Or even if it was, you know, just going to Sonic and getting a slush. Whatever it would be is just something that, it doesn't have to be big. It's just something that takes you into, back into reality or normality. It's so absurd. It's just the absurdity of life. Like you're in shock for so long that it takes its toll. So just doing something normal is great.

Steph Barron Hall: 43:39

Yeah. What do you think that other sixes might need to know about grief?

Marta G: 43:51

I think that the most helpful thing to me is, was, there's a couple things. One is we always wanna know why I can tell you what not to do. Don't ask someone. if you're, if a cancer patient has smoked or, or what kind of meals they ate or something like that. we got asked a lot, like, well, if his cancer started in his esophagus, did he have a lot of acid reflux or what? I'm just like, basically, what did he do? Right. You know? And I think that's a really human question to ask because I think when we're fearful, we ask why. And then we, we, want to, prep, right? We want to keep preparing and doing something that's not going to make that bad thing happen. And so I'll quit smoking or drinking or, you know, being around people who do or whatever. And the truth of the matter is, and we, when we talk to our oncologists and genetic counselors, they're like, like, like 75 percent of cancers are non traceable. You do not know why. Some cell in your body turns on. and starts to multiply. And that's cancer. I mean, the rest of them you can link to something that's poor behavior, but the need to know why, and the need to know what's going to happen, particularly for sex and grief, is futile. Like, it is futile. You will never, ever get an answer that's satisfactory to you. So, just give it up, is what I say. Do not Try to get that answer. live in the moment. The moment has enough for you. The day has enough for you to prepare for. And, and collapse the time thing down. To just today. And then when you, at the end of the day, look back and say, Did you do today? Or did you not? Yes, we're both still here. And you'll actually be able to look back at a collection of days that were better. So I think our need to know what happened in the past and what's going to happen in the future really makes that process of a six, that whole, someone must be blamed and projection thing going on or the whole, I'll feel better if I know what to expect. You're not going to know and, and nor should you, and, and honestly, you don't want to, you don't want to know. It's all different. Everyone's story is so different. So I can't even tell another cancer patient now, this is what's going to happen. And this is what you should do. Because every situation is so different. And, and, I, the other thing I would say is, this is my counselor, he said to me, I was flipping out, as sixes sometimes do. Freaking out on him. And he said, what do you want? Of course, I never know what I want. I wanted my husband to live and he looked at me with that look like we know that's not gonna happen. I said, okay, I just want you to tell me I'm going to be okay. I just want to know I'm going to be okay, right? And I'm kind of yelling at him. And he goes, and he always sat really still and he got up and he leaned in and said, Marta, it's going to be okay. You're going to be okay. And I calmed down, took a deep breath and he said, and it's not going to be okay. You're not. Cause how could you be,

Steph Barron Hall: 47:39

Mm

Marta G: 47:40

how could you be okay with this happening right now? And I thought, yeah, that's right. I'm supposed to be kind of crazy right now. I'm supposed to be kind of out of my mind right now. So the real validation of how hard it is and how dramatic it is to watch someone you love suffer is a really, it was really important for me as a sex. Not why did it happen or what's happening next. I really didn't want to talk about all those things and just wanted to know I can do hard things and it's going to be hard, that's all it is. Life is hard. So, that was helpful to me. I don't know if it's helpful to anyone else, though.

Steph Barron Hall: 48:31

Yeah. I mean, I think it is helpful because when we talk about type six, sometimes it's like, look at your hands, look at your feet, like you're okay.

Marta G: 48:44

Mm hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 48:45

You're alive. And you're not okay.

Marta G: 48:48

Yeah. Because it hurts. You're in pain. Another good question that my therapist would ask me is, Where does it hurt?

Steph Barron Hall: 48:57

Mm. Mm

Marta G: 48:59

And I was, okay, let me locate it somewhere in my body. It was always in my head, like if you have a headache. Or it'd be in my throat, where I... Wanted to cry, but I wasn't allowing myself to cry. All those things. I think other people feel it in different places. Now I feel it in my joints.

Steph Barron Hall: 49:18

Hmm.

Marta G: 49:18

but, locating the source of pain in your body, and feeling it all the way through, giving yourself space and time, to feel all the emotions and all the pain in your body, because the body keeps a score, right?

Steph Barron Hall: 49:33

Mm

Marta G: 49:34

And, and then just knowing this is hard. And, and then being reminded of the things that you did before that was hard. So, I don't know if I'll ever forget this, but there are still things I get worked on like, this is too hard, I'm quitting.

Steph Barron Hall: 49:51

hmm.

Marta G: 49:52

then I think, wait, I've done the hardest thing. I've done the hardest thing that I think I can ever do. Hey, I, I'm, I'm still here. At some point there's a thought that will be annihilated by hard things. And we need reminders that we did hard things.

Steph Barron Hall: 50:11

Yeah. Yeah, because I think it almost sounds like, too, you compartmentalize, almost like you were still waiting for the hard thing to happen.

Marta G: 50:23

Yeah, and Then, before I knew it, the hard thing happened and I looked back and I thought, that was hard. time is weird too. Like, how grief hits you and how long you go through it, I don't think anyone can predict or know. It still jumps me at weird times. I'll talk about it and I cry and just think giving yourself permission to know that that's, that's a hard thing. Like, I, I had someone comment like, you're really doing this well and I'm like, who are you? Like, don't, I'm not performing for you.

Steph Barron Hall: 51:00

Don't

Marta G: 51:00

You know, don't grade me, don't evaluate me on how I'm doing grief. And then I thought, oh, okay, well, I think what they're saying is you did it.

Steph Barron Hall: 51:11

Yeah.

Marta G: 51:12

And, and to, to take that and accept it and say, yeah, it was hard,

Steph Barron Hall: 51:18

Yeah.

Marta G: 51:19

and it's still hard.

Steph Barron Hall: 51:21

It's so hard. Yeah. Mm.

Marta G: 51:26

Yeah, so that's what I can say for myself. I think other, even subtypes of six might have something different. I think, one thing I learned is people who are ill or chronically ill or have cancer often lose their jobs.

Steph Barron Hall: 51:40

Mm

Marta G: 51:41

I think, Especially women do. And I think, it's just given me more kind of, what is it, energy? Or, gumption to say, this is not right.

Steph Barron Hall: 51:54

Yeah.

Marta G: 51:55

We're gonna do something about that. So, I have more energy on, maybe my calling or I've always kind of been in a situation as a female pastor where I've been told that I shouldn't or couldn't do it and so I'm kind of leaning into that. Oh We'll see about that

Steph Barron Hall: 52:17

Mm hmm. Look at me, I'm doing it. Ha Oh my gosh.

Marta G: 52:19

Yeah, I might not be doing it well, but I'm doing it

Steph Barron Hall: 52:26

well. When it comes to the Enneagram, how do you see your calling playing into that as well?

Marta G: 52:34

Yeah, I think that I Love typing people. I love coaching people I love sitting in the questions and I think sitting in uncertainty with people and being fully present to their life speaks really, speaks a lot to me and I'm able to do it a little bit better now that I've been through significant pain. So I think some of, you know, the coaching that I do, whether it be. on a team building basis or one on one is exciting to me. I always learn something. I always get more than I give. So, I'm really grateful for people who have allowed me in their lives to, to talk about hard things and do hard things.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:26

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously you have this experience doing hard things and just like the practical mindfulness aspect that you talked about of like this present moment.

Marta G: 53:38

Yeah, I think that, I don't, I'm not sure how far you want me to go into it, but I do think that there's a spirituality that I've learned over time. Of, of solitude and silence and, learning to wait and, and like I said, be present and learning of the presence of God in my life. That it's a less productive and church oriented and all the things that I think we think of when we think of evangelical church that really is a connection to God that, I think that all those, all of it's in there, it's all part of the same story. I think that meeting people when they're ready for that is something that I'm pretty good at. I can do that.

Steph Barron Hall: 54:22

Yeah, yeah.

Marta G: 54:23

and so spiritual retreats or things that help people listen to their own situations and, and notice where, they are in their life story as well as, where God is and where they can grow spiritually. Whatever their faith may be, is, and, and, again, I, what I noticed is there's always, our friend Shelly and Chad have taught us about burnout and shock points. It doesn't really matter what faith tradition you're from. There's always a critical journey that we go through. And there's a, there's something that is outside of ourselves that we cannot prepare for, and that is going to teach us something. So. So I'm excited to be able to share my story, but also, help people along their journey. I think sometimes I'm, I definitely needed someone to hold my hand through it all.

Steph Barron Hall: 55:20

Yeah. Well, and I think that the, life map activity

Marta G: 55:24

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 55:25

you facilitate is so powerful.

Marta G: 55:28

for me. So it's grateful. I'm grateful for those. I think all this, the contemplate the contemplative practices and spiritual practices that I've been really blessed to be part of really served me well. in the last few years, whether it be COVID or work or, you know, cancer, death of my husband, all those practices led me up to a time where I could actually utilize them and it not feel like, Oh, I'm just starting now. Like when, when the stuff really hit the fan, I had some resources that were, that were internal, not external, that I could say, Oh, It's not everyone else. It's not always everybody else. It's me. Cause wherever you go, there you are.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:18

Yeah.

Marta G: 56:19

So, the inner stuff is so critical to your journey.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:24

Yeah. Yeah, and I think too, like, I just want to call attention as well to, your experience working on a team and, and navigating that, organizationally.

Marta G: 56:37

Yeah. Yeah. I think that, if you talk to anyone in ministry, or you talk to any spiritual leaders, they'll say it's not a really popular time to be spiritual. there are a lot of division, there's a lot of cultural issues happening and, you know, we'd be silly to say that it's all fun and games anymore. we just need to get on and grow and have more numbers and make more money. It's, it's a really complex world that we're living in. And there are really, difficult divisions that we all have in our families, in our organizations, and where we work. There's so much there that is complex that we're able, the Enneagram can speak right into it and bring unity and bring, more understanding of ourselves and how we impact a group or a team.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:28

Yeah. Yeah. absolutely. Okay, I have two more questions that I always ask everyone, but before I throw those at you, where can people find you? Like, if they want to contact you for team training or coaching?

Marta G: 57:41

Yeah. So, my website's still in progress. email's the best. So it's Marta, M A R T A dot Gilliland. This is the hard part. G I L L I L A N at gmail. com. and just email me and I can set up a package for you if you'd like me to, or just a typing interview or coaching. Just let me know. But I, when I get my website up and running, I'll, I'll send it to you.

Steph Barron Hall: 58:12

Okay. Yeah, and I'll update show notes then.

Marta G: 58:16

Thanks.

Steph Barron Hall: 58:16

Cool. Okay, so finally, tell me about a book that has helped you, refreshed you, or shaped you in the last year. Mm

Marta G: 58:27

So, I think, I'm a real big fan of Kate Bowler. Have you heard of her? So her, Everything Happens for a Reason and Other Lives I've Loved, is a really, really good book in terms of, when something bad happens in your life and something difficult happens in your life. How to kind of navigate that journey, and also how to do it, you know, just getting back to the six thing, a lot of people say the holy idea of the six is courage, um, but I've heard others say it's faith,

Steph Barron Hall: 59:04

mm hmm,

Marta G: 59:04

faith that the universe will just all work out,

Steph Barron Hall: 59:08

yeah,

Marta G: 59:09

and I, I resonate with that a little bit better than courage, especially as a sexual six, which I didn't think I wasn't courageous, but Do you struggle with faith? I'd go, Oh yeah. So, that one is a really encouraged her podcast is good too, but I also like Scott Erickson. I don't know if you've heard of him. He's an artist and, his latest book is called say yes. Discover the surprising life beyond the death of a dream.

Steph Barron Hall: 59:41

mm

Marta G: 59:42

So he talks a lot about losing. that your dream, whatever that would be. And, and moving on from there, that's been helpful for me. He's an artist, so I, I'm kind of diving into that heart center and that art world. Cause I think that is, is a good relief for me.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:05

yeah, yeah. I love that. Okay, last question. What is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Marta G: 1:00:14

flat out, just quickly, you have more resources than you think you have inside of you. You have more internal resources. inside of you than you're ever looking for outside of you.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:29

truth. That's a good one.

Marta G: 1:00:33

Yeah, it's important for a 6 who's always consulting their committees, always deciding whether they can trust someone else or the authority figure in the room. It's like, okay, let's stop and just think, where are the resources that I have that don't really depend on me trusting anyone?

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:52

Yeah.

Marta G: 1:00:53

not trusting anyone. It's not really up to anyone else. That happens or not, that's up to me.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:01:00

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That's super helpful. Okay.

Marta G: 1:01:05

Keep that, keep me to that. Hold me accountable for that stuff.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:01:08

Yeah. You made a face like you didn't believe it. So, I asked you about it.

Marta G: 1:01:13

It's good. It's a good reminder. I have to remind myself that all the time. I do forget it.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:01:18

Yeah. Yeah. But I've seen it. That's good.

Marta G: 1:01:23

Okay. You can remind me when I forget.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:01:26

Well, thank you so much for, for joining me today.

Marta G: 1:01:29

for inviting me friend. It's fun.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:01:31

Of course. Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify