Learning to Slow Down and Embrace Solitude as an Enneagram 7 with Elle Pugh

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 1:30

What we know to be true is in order to heal, we have to be safe in our own bodies so that our own body has to feel like home. And what I find with working with sevens and with myself, and I think this is universally true, but how this shows up for a seven is we do not feel safe in our own bodies. Which is why we try to stay constantly stimulated and distracted from ourselves. We want to be with people, but we are deeply lonely. Because when we are alone, we don't, we do not want to be alone. And there is such an, when we peel the layer back and we start looking at this, And the behaviors start to slow down. We feel immense overwhelm from the anxiety that's underneath, which has been trying to protect us from deeper pain that we hold and we carry that we is like so, so in our shadow. And so what's been so transformative for my own work is that movement of five, my soul child, because what numbers loves be alone.

Samson Q2U Microphone: 2:59

Welcome back to Enneagram in real life. A podcast about using our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host Steph Baron hall. And on this week's episode. I'm speaking with Ellie pew And Elissa type seven. And we're going to talk today a little bit more about how she found herself as a seven, especially as a social seven and kind of the differences between social seven and type two. I think this is really a useful distinction because. I actually frequently meet with people who think that they might be twos or sometimes nines, but they actually are social sevens. And so we talked a little bit about that distinction today. and then we also talked about the influences of the different instincts. So self preservation, social and sexual, especially in the context of relationships. So I think that's really useful too. And then. How the Enneagram can help us in conflict. And specifically Ellie talked about how it's helped her relationship with her husband. We mentioned the biology of trauma and the virtue of sobriety as a type seven and what that looks like. So before we hop into the episode, let me tell you a little bit more about LEQ. She is a registered nurse and certified any grand professional coach who is passionate about joining others on their journey to self discovery, healing and liberation. Upon reaching burnout while working as a bedside nurse eight years ago, LA transitioned to the startup space, leading a team of 30 medical professionals. And it was during that time that Ellie learned about the Enneagram and began using it for her own personal and professional growth. As well as to help her team work together more effectively. Inspired by the healing potential with the Enneagram LA became a certified Enneagram coach and consultant. Through the Chestnut pies, Enneagram academy in 2020. She now coaches, individuals and teams through the lens of the Enneagram to live healthier, more integrated lives. Ellie lives in Austin, Texas. With her husband Reagan and their dog, Lily. So, thanks so much for listening to the podcast. And I really hope you enjoy this conversation with Ellie. You can also check out the links in the show notes to follow Ellie. You can find her at, beyond your type.co. and on Instagram at, beyond any gram and all of those things are in the show notes. So without further ado here is Ellie.

Steph: 5:23

Ellie, welcome to the podcast.

Elle: 5:25

Thanks Steph, I'm so excited to hang out with you today.

Steph: 5:29

Yeah. Um, I know that we are going to jump into all the things, um, but I have to tell you something kind of funny before we start. So recently, um, I was, you know, using my transcription service for my podcast. Um, and instead of neuron, ho put in neuro hose. And I was like, Oh man, maybe I should see Elliot. Let's see if Ellie wants to like be the neuro hose with me.

Elle: 6:00

Wait, yes. Like, is this our first episode?

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 6:05

It is.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 6:06

What a blast. I'm down.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 6:10

But with that, just, I'd love to hear more about you. Tell our listeners about your background and how you got where you are today. Um, all that good stuff.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 6:21

Okay, well, it's been a journey, for sure. But, um, so I have always been just so fascinated And people, I remember from a young age, just being super observant or looking, watching what people did and being curious as to why they did that. And I went to college thinking I wanted to be a nurse, but then I ended up majoring in psychology. And then after school, it's kind of left with the decision. Do I want to? I really want to pursue nursing or do I want to be a therapist and I stuck to that original calling of I want to be a nurse. I really feel like I want to help people heal. And so I went to nursing schools, went back to school, and then got out and practiced clinically for a while as a nurse. But I quickly learned that our Western medical care system is not really a system that is catered towards healing. And so quickly burnt out. It's also Continuing on my mother's great fresh greenery business. So my other business is gracious garlands, um, which some people may know that business, but I ended up working in the startup space. Um, so I left the clinical world just from burnout. And while I was working at the startup space, running a team of 30 medical professionals, I was the first employee at this startup. Helped to grow it to over 50 by, um, year 5 when I left. But while I was there, I learned of the Enneagram. And I remember being, I get this question asked all the time, when did you learn the Enneagram? And I remember my friend, Reagan, uh, who, my husband's name is Reagan, who Steph, we can talk about how you know him later, which is the funniest connection we made. But I remember Reagan said to me, have you heard of the Enneagram? And I kind of brushed it off. I was like, no, what is it? Oh, it's a personality test. You would really like it. And I was like, oh, interesting. And I kind of put that in the back of my mind. Um, and then six years ago, when Reagan, my husband and I started dating, it became a topic that was coming up in our friend circle. And so we decided, of course, to go to Google, Google type Enneagram. And of course, as it still does, the first thing that came up was the Enneagram Institute. So took that free ready test and tested mostly free. Um, a seven. I think I was like seven, three and four. Funny. I just like came across those, um, that test result recently. And I was like, Whoa, that's, that's bizarre. So that was my entry point. And he Reagan and I have really did a deep dive on it, you know, did the quintessential path of. Read the road back to you read the path between us are listening to Suzanne's to Bill and, and in typology and that was kind of the where it went like it only went that far for a while, but I kept hearing these teachers saying, are there any rooms like an onion. There are many, many layers to it, but I had not seen that in, um, a lot of the books and people I was following at, at that point. And, um, it was about three and a half years ago that I came across Bea, Bea Chestnut's work. And all these ovarial teachers, Helen Palmer, David Daniels, you know, uh, and, and learned about the subtypes. And that's when I actually got a little confused. Um, I still was a little bit towing the line of, am I a seven or a two, but then the subtypes did help to narrow that down because I realized I was a social seven. And I'll tell you what, I think with any, for anyone who's confused about their type. Do this work with friends that are also figuring out their type, you'll see, you'll know who you are by knowing what you're not. And I started observing my friends that were twos, who like in a group, you might ask them a question, what do you think? And they kind of go blank, because they are so focused on everyone else, they feel like they're like a deer caught in the headlights. If someone asks me what I think, I can't wait to share with you what I think. And I just started noticing that difference, I was like,

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 11:37

Yeah. Well, I think that's a great example of like the other referencing types versus the self referencing types like type seven. And it's funny because there is a lot of similarity between the social seven and, and the two. But to me, it normally feels like they're really, really different. Does it feel like that to you now?

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 12:06

now it does in some capacities, but I wonder if it comes down to like, the subtype and the sequencing,

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 12:18

Oh yeah. Mm hmm. Probably.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 12:22

a lot of my best friends are twos, um, and I think that, you know, we both have that hedonism about us. And like love to create like moments and treat ourselves so we can just get into the best kind of trouble together. Um, and maybe, maybe as a seven I might bring that out because I typically like bring that mischievous side out in,

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 12:49

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's interesting because I feel like sevens though, um, puzzle through things. It's like, let me just take this and just work this puzzle.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 13:00

Yes.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 13:04

Most of the types, I feel like you can kind of see that happening. Um,

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 13:11

Yeah, and I think that, um, just like anything, right, that could be our greatest strength and our greatest weakness,

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 13:20

right.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 13:21

or like, get the, the puzzle that, like, is on it, never ending.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 13:31

Yeah. So when you recognize yourself, like what was the moment or like the light bulb where it was like, Oh, I see.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 13:41

And type. Immediately.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 13:46

Even the subtype.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 13:47

Um, no, not, well, okay, not the, no, not the subtype, but definitely type, because, um, what Um, I also think I am becoming more and more intrigued by the influence our caregivers have on how easy it is for us to find our type and my mother's a seven. And so I think like my sevenness is like not really hidden. Um, it was also such a learned. Learned such learned behaviors and passed down behaviors, you know, I think like genetically like I think I really took a lot of that And so that reframe that positive reframing which is just it's it's been it's like right in the back pocket

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 14:43

Mm hmm.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 14:44

for everything And I just I don't see other types doing that compulsively like we do Um, and then around the subtype, you know, uh, I was a little, I was confused at first because, um, you know, you also were trained at Chestnut Pies and BNU Rio teach subtypes a little differently than some of the other schools. And so, had I followed the other way of finding your subtype, which is just look at the instincts and figure out which one you relate to most, um, I might have said self press. Which is so, so ridiculous, because,

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 15:31

Yeah.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 15:31

actually, like, you know, because self prez, like, is thinking about their next meal. Okay, no. A self prez repressed person, such as myself, Never, like self care is absolutely last, and I think that that's important to think about, um, and it was really when I read the information about the social, um, I tend to like sacrifice their own needs for others, even though not in the same way as a two, because a two truly does that. So I've been still self referencing and like, They know what they want, but they just feel like, in order to, they want to be good, they want to be seen as a good, moral person, and so they don't want to interject, they want to wait their turn. And it, and with subtype it was also looking at what I'm not. I know other sevens that are like, sexual seven, kind of quintessential class clown, and don't get me wrong, I absolutely love like, you know, mucking it up with them, but, but, I will. I'm more composed. And controlled than, than a sexual assault. Mm

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 17:02

Yeah. Well, and I, I think it's interesting cause I do see a lot of social sevens in helping roles like nursing therapy, coaching, et cetera, because there's such a drive to alleviate pain from others. Um, I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit more to like the type comparison of two versus the social seven, um, because I think that there are people out there, I'm, I'm certain there are people who are listening who are like, Oh, I'm a two because I love to help people and who might actually be mistyped because you know, the social seven is, is actually home for them.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 17:48

Yes, and as you know, I mean, like, we both come from histories in the church, and I'm not gonna say you're really from the South, because Texas is not the South,

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 18:01

Thank you.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 18:01

but I'll give you at least they're tangentially related, and culturally, and I think, yeah, exactly. I think a lot of women, Christian women, think, oh, I'm a two, because they've been conditioned to To show up, um, that way to be helpful. So the behaviors on the surface look like a two. Um, but I think the difference in a two and a social seven is social seven. So. This is the way I see it and now I'm remembering even more, um, you know, I learned about the subtypes at the beginning of the pandemic. So my heart was ripped apart, like when communal or like national or global events happen as a social dominant, it wrecks me and a social seven is a seven and they're wanting to like avoid pain or alleviate pain. And for a social seven, they're focused on like healing the pain of the world. And so they're helping from that perspective, I think, um, rather than a two that is really focused on their people. Um, and again, you can, if you, um, if you're unsure. And you know someone that you know as a two, spend time with them and then figure out, eh, are y'all like kind of jousting with questions and no one is comfortable asking a question or no one is comfortable talking about themselves? Okay, well, a seven is totally comfortable talking about themselves. They don't have that underlying pride that makes them go, like, feel icky about talking about themselves. Thanks.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 20:19

Well, and I also think that, um, and you can totally correct me if I'm, if I'm wrong, because like. You know, you would know, but, um, I think that like also paying attention to where thoughts and feelings and ideas come from, um, twos, obviously everyone is capable of original thought. Right. But I think twos their entire lives, they have a pattern of adapting to the external world a lot more. And social sevens still have like this core of like. A sense of self that is a lot, I think, more defined than a two.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 20:58

I would agree with that. And, and you can also then turn to intelligence centers. You know, sevens are misunderstood and thinking they're not really sensitive. And I find that most sevens, especially women, sevens are highly sensitive. cry a lot, but it's more around, I think like a fear or discomfort with the discomfort. And so they cry around that, whereas twos are so heart forward and you can, maybe not everyone can sense this, but I just sense such heart energy. Coming from a two, whereas a seven is all up in their head. They're like wanting to talk about the ideas they're working on and the theories and like ideate with me. I don't necessarily need you to tell me how much you love me and how much you care. That's nice, but it's not the thing I need and I think twos will leave. a hangout with their friend and think for the next week about what they said and be worried that whatever they said hurt their friend's feeling and I guarantee you they will have texted you after you hung out to say I'm sorry if I said this thing or maybe I shouldn't have said that that way and while we all might have that tendency in a seven might we're not as preoccupied with those thoughts of shame and like The relationship as much as a two would be

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 22:38

The loss of identity. Yeah. Yeah. I also feel like because of pride as the passion, I don't typically sense that twos are concerned about being selfish, um, in the same

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 22:54

say, say more about that.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 22:55

like I think that twos, they don't want to be selfish. And they do tend to think that paying attention to themselves or doing their own thing is selfish. Um, but I think that a lot of the time twos are like, I'm not selfish

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 23:10

Yes. Yes. And a seven like knows that. But Social 7, you know, knows that they might be, so it's like, trying really hard to not be.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 23:23

yeah. Yeah. So I think that that could be like an identity thing too. Also, all heart types are just constantly thinking about identity. Like in an exhausting way. And I, we, we talked about this a little bit. Cause you're like, how do y'all get by? And I'm like, do not know. I don't know. Um, but even in our conversations, there have been times when you're like, are you sure you're not a seven? And I'm like, I know

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 23:49

Yeah,

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 23:50

I it's right there for me, but it's, um, it's just not as, as driving of a motivation as, um, good self esteem. So

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 24:03

good old self deceit. Man, I have such a heart for my threes.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 24:09

thanks. We appreciate that.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 24:11

Such a heart for them. It's been beautiful to watch you reckon with that, that little gremlin.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 24:20

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's also really interesting what you said about the instincts. Look at me just like cruising right past that comment

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 24:32

I'm gonna, you know, give you some olive branches, you can take them if not,

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 24:38

uh, no, I, I think, uh, what you said about the, um, instincts is really important too, because I do see that a lot. And I also would have come up as self preservation and I actually did for a while and then social, but I conflated. Just like the type three image management with like the social instinct, which actually social is my repressed. Um, and I'm curious if you have anything else that you want to add to that for people who are like, what is my subtype? I have no idea or they're kind of feeling lost.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 25:11

Yeah, um, I'm beginning to see more and more, um, and I don't know how this fits in to all the different theories, but that there's some really quintessential characteristics to what someone looks like when that instinct is repressed. Looks like or like since it's like what's their anxiety around what's their resistance around so tell me if this is true for you for a social repressed individual, they have a lot of anxiety or resistance towards the group towards like. Social activity like they feel like that is going to absolutely drain their soul and they know like, okay, being with people is good. I know I'm supposed to be with people, but, and they, they do, they go be with people and they leave and they feel filled, fulfilled and filled up. But there's just, I see this like existential dread around like, Being with a group of people. Is that, can that come up for you?

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 26:30

It can and also it's a, I would say like with a caveat because I do tend to have a lot of social anxiety, especially Honestly, I just had some experiences and maybe because I'm social repressed where it's like, Ooh, I've been outcast

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 26:48

Yeah. Yes.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 26:49

been very much othered in, in, in certain experiences. Um, and. So it makes me really hesitant to kind of be a joiner. Like I've just never been a joiner. Now, I do love going in like, you know, in our book group and we, we do our calls and everything. I have anxiety around like taking up too much space for sure. You know, um, but I love like a really great conversation. So if there's something about it that feels like really, you know, this is like such a sexual instinct thing to say, but like, like really juicy or like really, um, like it has like that sense of, I don't know, like, you know, like that, that experience. That feels really thrilling and exciting. And I always love those like moments of, of more intensity or more depth, like going a lot deeper, but in general, like I've just never been a joiner. Like you could not catch me. Wearing something like my school's spirit day, whatever. Like the only time I would do that is when I felt would feel ostracized otherwise. But like St. Patrick's Day, you will not catch me wearing green. I do not do the thing, even though I'm a three and I do the thing that

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 28:08

Uh huh.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 28:09

of me in a lot of ways. There are these ways where I'm like,

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 28:14

100%. Yes, I see that with like a lot of my clients that I work with. So another example would be someone who's sexually repressed, a resistance to intensity, a resistance to getting with it, you know, like. Uh, a resistance to anger, a resistance to is anything that feels intense and even like letting their body experience intensity, they won't go there. Um, and then for self press repressed, the resistance is around anything that has to do with like self. Um, so resistance to routine, resistance to schedule, resistance to budget, resistance to like self love and like that and that actually feeling good. I think that self care practices. with someone who's self care, self oppressed, repressed, feels really uncomfortable, um, it's not something we, our ego knows well, um, and so the work is to bring that repressed instinct, instincts up to do the things that, like, come along with what a, that healthy, um, what it looks like to healthily bring that instinct online and get comfortable with those behaviors because we need, we need the balance of all three of them.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 29:58

yeah. Yeah. Are you okay with like going down this trail a little bit more? Cause I have some things I want to chat about. So, um, I think that's so important. And when we like, look at, I mean, I think it's, it's good in a sense to recognize the strengths of how we already are. Right. Cause I think that that's a really important part of change work. Um, but also to be like, let's just bring things into balance a bit more. And I noticed that one in relationships. You can get into a lot more conflict if you have the opposite stack of somebody.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 30:34

Yeah. Yeah.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 30:35

And I'm curious, like when you're working with clients, um, if you've encountered that or even like your own experience, like what do you see come up when, um, instincts are there?

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 30:52

Oh, I mean, I think it is likely where most of your fights originate. Um, because if you think about it, these are instinctual drives. So they're associated with survival. So they mean so much to us. So we think, you know, our ego has, it is just incredibly attached and our instincts are, they're moving at such a speed that we have such a hard time seeing them in the beginning. So I find that with my clients, like individually or like the couples that I coach or even in my own life, that those are when If your instincts, your dominant instincts are different, or your repressed instincts are different, that's where you really miss each other, and I'll give you an example from my own life. Um, my husband is social repressed, and I am social dominant. Guess what? Um, being out in the world, being with people, doing things, filling, you know, um, my calendar with social activity, and I, social does not, I think, Oftentimes people that are not social dominant think social repressed means extrovert, or, um, like you like parties, and I, I don't know that That is necessarily true. Um, I think it shows up differently for each type. But, it definitely means you want to be out in the world. And you want to like, be with people. That really fills us up and gives us a sense of security. if I'm not spending time with my people, they might forget about me. If they forget about me, they'll kick me out of the tribe. If they kick me out of the tribe, I'm gonna die. Truly, I will die. Yes, exactly. And I need to make sure that they know I'm still here. You know, my husband, who is a social repressed, does not, does not want to go out of the house. This is not his natural inclination. And he has done such an incredible job bringing that social up, where I've worked to bring my self prez up, because, okay, if I don't bring my self prez up, and I don't pay my bills, I don't have a routine, I don't have good sleep hygiene, like, that affects our, our household. Like, taking care of the house, that's really important to him. So we, we, our biggest conflicts can come from our instincts, actually, in that regard.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 33:34

Yeah. That makes sense.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 33:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get this question all the time. Like what's the, what types are compatible? And I'm like, Any, any types can make it work. It's if you're willing to grow together or, or the opposite, like, you could be so matched up you know, you're going to have conflict regardless, but there's not enough conflict to make you need to, like, really stretch and grow to remain together. If you are that opposite, then you really both have to be committed to the work in order for that reconciliation to be accessible.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 34:22

Mm hmm.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 34:23

Um, I mean, my husband's a sexual 4 and we could not be more honest. always say we wouldn't be together if it weren't for the Enneagram and I. Absolutely. Stand by that.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 34:36

What was it about learning the Enneagram that's helped so much? Mm hmm.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 34:42

Okay, so, a sexual four, um, historically, the angriest number on the Enneagram. Um, and as a four, fours, like, love being sad. They love focusing on what's missing. There's like a tragic romance to that. And that is really beautiful. And you know what? Like, I think the emotion of anger gets such a bad reputation and, and I want to make sure to say that anger does not mean aggression. It can, but we all experience anger. We just get aggressive or we repress it and we need to have a healthy relationship with it. But me as a social seven who loves like being out in the world, wants to heal the world, it sees the possibilities. Oh my gosh, like. We see the world from completely different vantage points. Therefore, we see each other, like, as an alien. You know, like, who is this person? And, um, so the Enneagram has given us language to not only explain our own, um, egoic perspectives. But also to invite us to grow and realize that, you know, typically integration and growth and healing looks like oftentimes it's moving to your opposite. Well, how beautiful that we represent each other's growth paths in a lot of ways. So when we can remember that, that, like, we have so much to teach one another, that's when we are so solid. And we just have always had such a deep love for one another, which has made the fighting for us worth it. But it wouldn't have been possible if it weren't for the Enneagram, because we just speak such different languages.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 36:56

And that's where it's so helpful, right? Cause like, you wouldn't know that you're speaking different languages. You'd just be like, this guy is nuts.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 37:05

Insane!

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 37:06

Yeah.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 37:07

Are you trying to ruin my life? Really, you know, that that's just like that naive seven that just wants to stay happy, you know, is not how life goes. Unfortunately, Ellie

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 37:24

No. No. But, um, yeah, I think it is really helpful for that. Um, and I'm, I'm curious if you want to share more about, um, just how you've kind of come into this type of work. Cause I think that something that you bring to it is like. This, I think a really well studied perspective on the Enneagram as well as like some of these other things that we've talked about, like my, you know, narrow hose joke is, is really because we share this, this, um, desire to like, look at. Things through like this trauma informed perspective, um, and as a nurse, you have like such an awareness of like how our bodies actually like legitimately work. And um, I'm curious if you can speak a little bit more about your coaching process and just how you kind of bring all these things together.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 38:25

yeah, I would love to. This is something I am so passionate about. But, um, you know, the any room felt like the space of the any room professionally teaching it felt like a coming home. I. And I had a beautiful friend reflect back to me, Hey, I really think you identify as a healer. And that was so impactful for someone to say to me. Um, because yeah, I do. I want to, I want to meet people on their journey. I want to help them move towards healing and wholeness and know, okay, our healthcare system at this point is not helping people do that. There is a huge movement coming, but it's not doing that. So then I found the Enneagram and it helped me. See myself and heal from some of these unconscious patterns I couldn't really, like, label beforehand. So, in, I guess, the past three years, like, going very deep into the Enneagram and utilizing the Enneagram as the framework through which I coach people one on one, and I also work with teams, um, to help them improve their culture, uh, run more effective teams and better understand one another. I have continued to learn, um, in the space of trauma informed medicine. So from people like Gabor Mate, uh, Thomas Hibble, um, Mark Hyman Functional Medicine, uh, my new fave is Um, Amy, uh, how do I pronounce her last name? Dr. Amy Apian. I think it's AP Apian. Not quite sure how to pronounce it. Um, but I recently attended this. You know, I, I'm on these email lists for functional medicine, trauma-informed thought leaders, and so I get emails all the time. attend these free conferences, which is incredible. I, we are so lucky that these prolific teachers are putting out free education. So any of those names, Google them, go to their website, sign up for their email list. Dr. Talks also does great functional medicine, um, uh, like free conferences all the time. But I attended Dr. Amy's biology of trauma conference, and she has this framework, she talks about the three essential pillars for healing, and it really gave me clarity as to Um, or like a, yet another framework to guide my work, uh, through. So when I work with someone, it's, yes, it's overarching through the lens of the Enneagram, but we also take into account the biology, biology of trauma. So what I mean by that is, okay, what I was like, how do my genetics predispose me to trauma? Also based on what trauma I have experienced. I'm carrying in my body. How has my biology changed? What diseases may have resulted as a way or Manifested from the trauma that I've experienced, how biologically am I treating my body? Am I moving it? Am I eating certain foods high in sugar, um, gluten that cause the trauma response within the body? So the biological, biological component is really important to me as a nurse when I work with my clients. Two thoughts and beliefs and this is Dr. Amy's framework, but how I see it is, okay, the thoughts and beliefs pillar, I utilize the Enneagram and a little bit of IFS work with it, with my clients to understand how your default unconscious thoughts and beliefs self sabotage. How they cause to, how they cause unhealthy behaviors, um, how they keep us from the whole human experience. how can we put them aside so that we can return home, return home to essence, follow that north star of our virtue that guides us towards healing. And then the third pillar of that is body work, somatic work. So it's nervous system regulation. And, um, I'm not certified in any, um, somatic modalities yet, but I would love to be soon. And I do, you know, I self teach and learn from wonderful people out there. Some tools to get my clients to also help them self regulate. So those three pillars. biology, my physical body, diseases or my microbiome, my thoughts and beliefs, and my nervous system. We can either be experiencing a trauma response because of those three pillars, or we can work to heal each of those three pillars. And we need all three components. To live a healthier life and heal disease, you know, so I think one of the things I'm really passionate about is how do we bring the Enneagram framework to medicine, um, as like a health coaching perspective and how can this framework, yeah, help people heal. I'm seeing with my clients that their blood work is improving, you know, some that have chronic diseases. They are, their blood work is truly improving because of this work, or maybe they're coming off an anti anxiety medication that they never thought they'd be able to come off of, or maybe they're actually healing from depression, and they never thought that was possible because our healthcare system says you have depression and you have depression period. They don't help you realize that, like, you can, you can actually heal from that. So I'm so passionate about how the Enneagram helps us with that.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 45:01

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that, I think, um, it really aligns with a lot of. You know, like, for example, the body keeps the score is probably the most famous book on this topic currently, but like, there are so many others, um, so many other authors who've written written on this. And I think, um, I think sometimes my resistance. To it is just that sometimes people can feel like they're to blame when they have some sort of chronic illness or, um, you know, cancer or something like that. And so I never would want somebody to feel blamed, but I, I'm just saying like seeing how pivotal it can be, um, to do the inner work

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 45:45

Totally.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 45:46

globally for

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 45:49

Yeah, and, and that's, like, something that we want to make sure to, like, always say. And I think anyone in this space, would want to be sure to say that it's, it's not your fault.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 46:04

your system.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 46:05

And once you understand the science behind everything that I'm talking about, you're, you're, you really are free from it. And then you see the path forward towards healing. Um, you know, I, I know that you'd want to, wanted to talk about what, Potentially my journey has been with the Enneagram and healing as a seven. And what we know to be true is in order to heal, we have to be safe in our own bodies so that our own body has to feel like home. And what I find with working with sevens and with myself, and I think this is universally true, but how this shows up for a seven is we do not feel safe in our own bodies. Which is why we try to stay constantly stimulated and distracted from ourselves. We want to be with people, but we are deeply lonely. Because when we are alone, we don't, we do not want to be alone. And there is such an, when we peel the layer back and we start looking at this, And the behaviors start to slow down. We feel immense overwhelm from the anxiety that's underneath, which is like, has been trying to protect us from deeper pain that we hold and we carry that we is like so, so in our shadow. And so what's been so transformative for my own work is that movement of five, my soul child, because what numbers loves be

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 47:55

Yeah.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 47:56

the five. And when I did a lot of five work and learned literally one year, my only goal was to learn to rest, to learn to love to rest, to learn to love to like do nothing and be by myself if I needed to. That has been the number one most important thing. I've done for my own healing journey because now, like, I do actually find that with me. I'm home and I think most sevens do not, they do not experience

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 48:43

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that even being around you, like in person too, you can sense that because you, I think you exude like a sense of calm. from what I've heard from you, that's been very difficult to cultivate.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 48:59

that. So difficult. I mean, I, uh, yeah, coaching a new seven and, um, she, it's always, I just, I mean, I love coaching every type, but of course there's something special about coaching someone. Who is your same type because you just it's a mirror and you learn so much from them like doing this work in the beginning, but, uh, it's so beautiful that I'll sit with someone who's come to this work and I realize, my gosh, I don't even recognize. Those behaviors really anymore and that person, I mean, when my husband met me six years ago, he said, no joke. I had like 20 coffees a week on my calendar with people. And I mean, you know, I was, I used to have. I was running a team of 30 individuals. I was working, um, 40 hour weeks. I, and then I was running my other company, which under that company during the holiday was two pop up shops in Austin and in Nashville. We had an online dropshipping business. We were delivering 200 Christmas trees per city. We were decorating 40 homes and businesses between each city. I have, like, literally, what's wild is as I'm saying that, I feel my heart pinching.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 50:33

Mm hmm.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 50:35

Talk about, the body keeps the score. As I remember that, and that trauma place I was in, like, my body knows.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 50:44

Mm hmm.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 50:46

And I was running myself into the ground, truly. But I didn't, I didn't know it. Until I came to the Enneagram and realized, Oh my god.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 50:56

Mm hmm.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 50:57

Gluttony is out of control.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 51:00

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. I mean, it's not really funny, but it's funny to look back and be like, wow, I didn't, I couldn't see it,

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 51:09

Mm

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 51:10

but I kind of, I was just gonna say, I kind of feel the same about working with, uh, threes who are like, I'm not emotional. Yeah. But it's a process.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 51:26

it's such a process and that's like, I think that's the hardest thing is almost wish I had like a montage of, that I could play, um, of my life for my clients before they started this work and like every week to be like, no, no, no. You don't know how long this journey is. And truly, I'll never forget when I was going through training at Chestnut Pies three years ago, and we have to do our own personal work there. And so I was at the, um, Retreat A, I forget they've renamed it. Personal Retreat. Having an existential crisis. Thinking, am I going to have to show, like if, if my work is sobriety, which means focus. Narrow, become an expert and like, just one thing, focus on one thing. that mean I'm going to have to like, do I need to shut down my other business right now if I'm starting this new idiot group coaching business? And one of the counselors was like, Hey, we don't know, maybe, maybe one day, but like, maybe it's more about how do you bring the energy of sobriety to everything you do? And so that's what I've tried to do and yeah, maybe one day. There will be, I mean, it'll be a, it's a continual like process of refinement. You know, you, you can't just like, you don't change overnight and you also can't build sustainable systems overnight. So you need the change to be little bit, a little bit at a time. And it's taken me three years to get to where I am now from a professional perspective, and that has. I've absolutely done a complete overhaul with my other business to simplify it, and that was completely inspired by my indie grant work, because I was like, Oh, I built a business out of gluttony, and that's not healthy,

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 53:37

Yeah.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 53:37

so let's change that. But you know, it's been such a long road, um, and I have so much, so much more road to travel.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 53:47

Yeah. And I think what's so funny is like, I actually had a similar impulse and I think that this is. There are a few types that I think do this, just like what action do I need to take right now based on this new information? And again, right there, there's gluttony, right? You'd be like, Oh, got to go, got to do it now. Um, and. It's like, Oh, what if I have to be a little bit uncomfortable for a long while with this process?

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 54:18

Oof, yeah, you know. That's, that's really coming up, um, for one of my clients right now, uh, who's a 7, who's like, kind of, you know, we've been working together for almost a year and they are really aggravated that they're not enlightened yet, you know,

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 54:45

Yeah.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 54:46

and I mean, yeah, uh huh, yeah, um. And that's what I just really hope that, you know, the people that you and I are trying to speak to understand that, like, this is a lifelong journey. And, I mean, you know, from a scientific perspective, like, we can't make, like, big changes and they be sustainable and stick to them. We just can't do that. We literally have to build new neural pathways slowly. Through small shifts and because we need to feel we needed to feel safe and like a little it's going to be really really uncomfortable to try something new, but the familiarity of the of the repetition helps it to be more comfortable

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 55:51

Yeah.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 55:52

and helps us to choose that new path in the future, you know, but it just you just can't fix it all at once.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 55:59

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of my friends who also like does EFT tapping, um, she talks a lot about this of like, There's all of this talk of like, you have to get outside your comfort zone, banish the comfort zone. And it's like, no, no. Like there are times when you're like a little bit outside it, right. Um, for growth, but staying in your comfort zone or like in your window of tolerance is like how you can build.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 56:33

Yes, yes, and that speaks to that third pillar of, like, body and semantic work health, like, if you just, you know, go, take the same energy of, like, a trauma response, that fight, fight! Or even victories, you know, like, that's another reaction, and that is re traumatizing and that is not going to create a safe environment for true change. To happen.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 57:06

Yeah. Yeah. It's so important. And it's all just like, so connected. Um, like, this is the thing that I. I don't wish that I'd known it. Like, there have been things that have happened recently, even for me, where I'm like, would have been really nice to know this few years ago. And then I'm like, you know what? No, because I wasn't at a place then to receive it like I can now.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 57:27

Yeah.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 57:28

Um, but I think it's just so important. And I think when people are ready for that next level in their Enneagram work, like this is the stuff that's, that's so crucial.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 57:41

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I coach people from 20 to 70 and no matter where they are, I always tell them, like, all of this work is grief work, really, and it's okay to grieve the fact that you did it. you're doing the work now to heal. And where there's healing, there's hope. And so, because we typically feel like we wish we had it in our previous life out of guilt, or like, shame, or wishing for a different result. And I think it's important to acknowledge that pain. You know, especially as a 7th, like, okay, what? Like, sit with that grief that you didn't have it. Grieve all this knowledge that you didn't have. But, there is so much healing. and hope here now.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 58:53

Yeah, absolutely. Um, with that said, do you want to share where people can find you?

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 59:01

Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Beyond Enneagram and my company is Beyond Your Type. So you can find me at beyondyourtype. co, and I, yeah, I work with people one on one. I have a nine week, um, it's called From Ego to Essence coaching program, and it's It is catered to, you know, we go, we figure out your time. If you already know your time, then we do a two hour deep dive on just what's your story. And then it's an eight week course slash coaching. After you get a workbook and we, we go in really deep. We, we learn about intelligence centers, passions, virtues, fixations, ideas, all the good stuff. Um, so we can do that. And I also love, love, love working with teams. And I think that hopefully, you know, actually the corporate space is the place where we can share this work with most people, a lot of people. And it just, if most of our time has to be spent working, Then why not have some healthy language and healthy culture, safe culture to operate in, so we can really make big, a big impact in the world.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 1:00:29

Absolutely. Totally agree. Um, cool. Okay. Well, two last questions that I ask everyone, um, first, tell me about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 1:00:41

In the last year. Okay. Um, really, I would have to go with The Myth of Normal by Gabbermonte. Just to give you a little teaser, he talks about, um, and this is a good reframe for that. You know, the comment you had about like, it's hard to not blame ourselves. Honestly, like we really have our toxic culture to, to blame. And that's not to sound like too woo woo, but it's really true. Um, the systems and the met and the systems we operate in and the messages that we receive shape, the behavior, uh, of our parents, what our parents have to go through and that shapes how they show up for us. And so it's all connected. And I think the work that he is doing is going to absolutely change health care and Move, like, move us to a place where we're actually a health care system, not a sick care system. So

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 1:01:41

Yeah,

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 1:01:41

I'm very inspired by his work.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 1:01:44

totally. Um, yeah, especially I think his, his work on like attachments and, um, those early moments, like it's just so important because I, people all the time say, Oh, kids are resilient. It's fine. And I'm like, Oh no.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 1:02:04

No, no, they are not. They're really not, actually.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 1:02:07

I mean, they are, if they have like the protective, you know, resources and, and, um, An attachment figure, but yeah.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 1:02:19

I know.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 1:02:22

Um, okay. What is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 1:02:28

Mmm. I'm just gonna share the first thing that came to mind, which is, like, not very deep. But it could be helpful for many different types. And the thing that just came to me is this acronym, GETMO, good enough to move on. I think that can help many of us in many different ways, especially a seven who might feel like, wait, wait, wait, wait, I haven't gotten to do everything I want to do yet, or said everything I want to say yet. Just kind of accepting what is. Accepting a good enough job, showing up for your life, moving on.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 1:03:15

Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Useful for people who struggle with perfectionism too.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 1:03:20

Yeah. Yeah.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate1: 1:03:21

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Great. Well, thank you so much. This has been delightful. I really appreciate you joining me today on the podcast.

GMT20230825-215535_Recording_separate2: 1:03:29

Thanks, Steph. It's been a delight.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:03:34

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify