A Guided Tour of Internal Family Systems (IFS) with Amanda Steed, LCSW

Amanda Steed: 1:30

When people say, I was so triggered, that says that a vulnerable part has been touched on, right? So, um, Those are pushed really to the edges of our system or deep down in our system, that's why they're called exiles, is because they've been exiled from the system and pushed far away. The reason they're pushed far away is because they cause pain and they cause, uh, or at least the perception by protective parts is that they cause pain that's overwhelming to the system. And so then you have parts who are protecting those more vulnerable parts, uh, and the manager parts are doing things to kind of get ahead of it, to kind of like plan so that those parts never get activated. Right. So these are things like people pleasing. If I have a people pleasing part who comes in and says yes to everyone, then I don't ever have to experience the pushback of someone saying, I don't like that you've said no to me. And then. My exiled part, my more vulnerable part that says I'm not good enough and that people don't like me, and that I am not gonna have any friends that never gets touched if I people please all the time. Well, these manager parts are often younger than us, um, and they get tired or life gets busy and overwhelming and our system is kind of run down. And when these manager parts, uh, can't use their strategies anymore and for lack of a better word, fail, and those exiles do get activated, then our reactive protectors come in.

Samson Q2U Microphone & Golden Delicious 3: 3:20

Welcome back to Instagram in real life, a podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. And I'm your host Stepford hall. And today we have the privilege of hearing from. My good friend, actually, Amanda seed. Amanda was actually on the podcast a couple of years ago when it was called ask an Enneagram coach and she is a type eight, but today we're actually going to be talking about something a little different. So you've heard recently that I've been talking about how, we have all this Enneagram knowledge and then. We also have other knowledge that we need to bring on board. So I don't necessarily always think it's the most useful thing to look entirely for the Enneagram, for all of the, how to aspects of how to work with this stuff. I think the Enneagram can show us the way, show us where we need to work on things, but then we do need to go ahead and integrate things from other sources. Like everything doesn't have to be strictly Enneagram. So Amanda is a therapist and she's also certified in. ifs, which is internal family systems, as well as EMDR. And both of these modalities are really useful. They've been incredibly helpful for me in my own personal work As a therapy client. And Amanda is here today to talk a little bit more about how she uses ifs and EMDR in conjunction with each other. We focus most of this episode on ifs. So if you are not familiar with it, this episode, we'll dig deep into what the whole system is. All of the different jargon that you might hear if you've encountered ifs and how we can use it. So I think this episode is a really helpful beginner's guide to internal family system. And in the future, I hope to have more guests and maybe even we'll have Amanda back to talk more about this tool and how we can use it, how it can supplement our work. And, um, some of the things that she uses in therapy, because. Something I personally love about using ifs. And I've been using it for a couple of years now. Is that it's really good for my own personal work when I'm not with my therapist. Um, so that's something I really like about it so of course work with a licensed mental health professional. Um, in your area or, with whatever you want to work on, but this has just been a nice supplement for me. And Amanda is the perfect person to guide us through this. So before we get into it, here's a little bit more about Amanda, amanda CDE is a licensed clinical social worker or LCSW serving Texas, Colorado, and Washington through her private practice. And building collective therapy and consulting with a mission to facilitate healing and wholeness. Amanda believes in the power of establishing trusting relationships as the cornerstone of therapy. Her therapeutic approach is rooted in trauma informed care and attachment focus techniques. Amanda has completed level one ifs training is EMDR certified and an EMDR consult in training. She trusts these evidence-based modalities to guide her clients through core wound healing, creating new pathways in the brain and empowering them to regain a fulfilling life. She specializes in working with spiritual trauma, anxiety disorders, ADHD, and codependency. While Amanda takes her work seriously. She does not take herself seriously and enjoys being silly as often as possible. But something I want to note quickly before we get started is like I mentioned, She's licensed in Texas, Colorado, and Washington state. So if you're in any of those states, you can work with Amanda as your therapist. All of her contact info will be in the show notes and she offers ifs, demo groups where she has therapists. Um, who come in and learn from her. And she also has EMDR and ifs consultation groups, and she does. EMDR ifs blended intensive. So an intensive is where she works with you for a set of hours, whether that's, twice or a few hours at a time or just one day for several hours at a time. I think she has operated a couple of different ways. But it's really effective because if you could only imagine at the end of the therapy session and you're like, oh, I was just getting to the good part. Um, because you have that longer period of time, you don't have that sense of like, oh gosh, I was just getting into the good stuff and now I have to go. And like, try to remember to pick up here next week. Um, At least that's my experience with therapy that might not be everyone's experience, so I think that the intensive thing is really cool because you get to work with her for several hours and delve really deep and get some really, Useful healing out of that experience. So again, Texas, Colorado, Washington state. Uh, you can have Amanda be your therapist and then check out those consultation groups as well. If you are a therapist yourself. So without further, I do, please. Enjoy this conversation with Amanda seed about. Internal family systems.

Steph Barron Hall: 8:03

Well Amanda, welcome to the podcast.

Amanda Steed: 8:06

Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.

Steph Barron Hall: 8:09

Me too. Um, we're just gonna pretend like we don't talk all the time.

Amanda Steed: 8:13

I know.

Steph Barron Hall: 8:16

So I think to start out, I would love to hear a little bit more about your, the

Amanda Steed: 8:21

the,

Steph Barron Hall: 8:22

you journey to becoming a therapist. Um, obviously I've kind of had a front row seat to it over the past couple of years, but, um, I would love to hear more about it and, um, how you kind of got to this place in your career.

Amanda Steed: 8:36

yeah. So it's, uh, it's was kind of like a long and winding road to get here, but I will say like, um, if you look back at like the different careers I've been in and the different, um, Like priorities in those careers, like social work makes so much sense to me. Right? So I work as a clinical social worker, as a therapist, but like ultimately I chose social work because I love the values, I love the code of ethics. I like am a nerd for social work. I love the perspective that it has and I knew that even if I didn't like therapy, like I could find something within the career of social work that I would love. Um, but essentially I, I kind of jumped around in, in different jobs for a while. It took me a long time to finish my bachelor's degree and so I was kind of in jobs to make my way through that. And um, something that ca I came back to pretty often is working with kids, working in recreation. And that led me to working in programming, which is like essentially doing curriculum based programs, right? Like running curriculum based programs. I got a lot of interest in writing curriculum based programs and was kind of pursuing that direction. And, um, quickly realized that like a bachelor's in sociology was not going to get me to a place where I can make enough money to do that. Um, and so I started looking at master's programs and that's where I found social work. Fell in love with social work. At that point, I had been trying to get pregnant for a couple of years. Um, so I started my first semester of graduate school, like, okay, I'm not getting pregnant, so may as well like, move on and do something. Right. And of course, the way that life works, I got pregnant my first semester just had this like, um, made this decision that like I, I really wanted to be with my kids. And also it just made more financial sense for me to, uh, not continue going to school. It's, it's not like I was working, um, but not continue to go to school, put it on hold. At the time I was pursuing social work because I felt like it could lead me into this realm of programming and like working for like Boys and Girls Club or the Y M C A or something like more, um, administrative level. And then when I took a break, I started going to therapy myself and that's when I really started getting into the Enneagram and I started doing a little bit of Enneagram coaching. And I had this like moment with almost every coaching client where we would get to a certain point and I was like, this is out of my, now I would say like my, uh, scope of competency, right? Like I'm not competent in trauma, I can't help you process trauma. And it really feels like until you process this trauma, we can't make any progress to move forward. So by the time I was ready to go back to graduate school, I. My focus had totally shifted and I shifted from the administrative side of social work more to direct practice. And I knew, like going through the program, my goal was to be a therapist. Like I knew that I wanted to work towards my clinical license. Um, so it really was this like, uh, the experience I had with my therapist. I wanted to be able to offer that to other people. And then I just noticed that a lot of the strengths that I had, uh, led towards therapy, like lent themselves to therapy. And, uh, so yeah, that's, I went to school, graduated, got my license, earned my hours at a private practice, which isn't very common for social workers. Most social workers will go to like hospice or, um, a hospital setting or somewhere else to earn their clinical hours. But I got to do it in a private practice, which was great. Um, and then I opened my own practice in April of this year.

Steph Barron Hall: 12:19

Cool.

Amanda Steed: 12:20

like a very, again, long and winding road.

Steph Barron Hall: 12:23

yeah. But I think that that makes sense. And especially it sounds like even though that break wasn't planned for, it was pivotal in the path that you ended up taking and you kind of moved into what you were meant to do.

Amanda Steed: 12:36

yeah, and I really have a lot of faith that, you know, just like I tell myself, if I get to a point where therapy is just like not for me anymore, which is like so unimaginable, um, I'm a social worker, like I can go, I can do, I always tell people who are trying to decide if they wanna do social work, like, you can do anything you want. Like, there's literally not an industry that you can't get into with a license and social work. Um, and so I really think, like even if I had finished my degree at the time, I think that all paths would've led to this point. Like, this feels like I, like, I mean, you and I have this conversation as friends all the time. Like I. Just the way I've like spiritually deconstructed. I don't know that I believe everything happens for a reason or like there's like the universe is like guiding us, but this, what I will say is like, this feels so aligned with who I am and how I was like built as a human being that I can't imagine not getting to this point at some, at some point, you know?

Steph Barron Hall: 13:31

Yeah.'cause I think that the thing that Enneagram eights really lends to things like therapy, like is the ability to. Be uncomfortable and, and be in that conversation with your, um, client and be like, yeah, this is really uncomfortable. And you don't have to, I mean, I'm sure that there could be an impulse at times to fix it, but like you get trained not to. Uh, but but also just like the ability to be like, yeah, this is really uncomfortable.

Amanda Steed: 14:04

Yeah. It's really uncomfortable and um, this is a really hard thing for you to hear. Right. Like I don't shy away from conflict in therapy and I think that my social instinct softens it a little bit, right? Like that definitely helps me kind of like go a little bit slower and like, um, res, like res pick up on the feedback I'm getting, like read the room. Um, but I do think that a lot of times I get people in my office who have been in therapy for a long time with therapists who are a lot less direct, a lot less likely to push back on people when what they're saying isn't, um, in alignment with what they've said they want. And I think that I can see that really clearly and I. Can also build the rapport with my clients to earn that trust to be able to offer the feedback. So I don't like shy away from offering feedback that would be uncomfortable. Um, and I feel like my clients appreciate that.

Steph Barron Hall: 15:16

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, there's nothing worse than feeling like, okay, you knew this the whole time, I didn't say anything.

Amanda Steed: 15:24

Yeah. Yeah. I also think, you know, I've done so much work to like, have access to my Feeling Center and like really, um, lean into that. I think like being a parent really helped me with that. Like, I ha I could no longer, uh, avoid feelings. Um, but also I have a great ability to just be like, I don't feel it. Right. Like I don't have to feel it. I can, whereas I think other types, that's something that, you know, I have a lot of friends who are a therapists who are type twos or even type threes, and even the threes that are like feelings feeling repressed, right? They're still this, I know,

Steph Barron Hall: 16:07

I'm shaking

Amanda Steed: 16:07

you, not ever, um, who are feeling repressed. Like they're still not feeling center. So there's still some extra work that goes into the disconnection. Whereas I feel like with me, like I can have clients who are just like in the hardest moments of their lives and I have the ability to really get space from how their feelings might impact me. Does that make sense? Like, uh, I can stay objective ish

Steph Barron Hall: 16:36

Mm-hmm.

Amanda Steed: 16:37

when, um, I feel like for other, for my friends who are therapists that are not eights, uh, that's really hard. Like they, they feel the feelings of their clients, uh, maybe more than I do. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 16:48

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, and I think that that can be, you know, at times, like it can feel like a superpower, right? But it leaves you so depleted if you're doing that all the time.

Amanda Steed: 17:01

Oh yeah. And we'll get into that, right? Like talking about I F Ss and like the, the tool of getting space from these parts that want to jump in and fix it, or the parts that like resonate so deeply that start feeling your client's feelings for you. Um, yeah. I f s is is an amazing tool for therapists

Steph Barron Hall: 17:23

Yeah.

Amanda Steed: 17:23

that's like great for my clients, but, um, it really, like, I can't tell you the number of therapists who say I was exhausted, I was burnt out. I was like at the end of my rope until I started practicing I f SS therapy and they're just not anymore.

Steph Barron Hall: 17:38

Well, and I, I've even found it for me, like helpful in coaching, like I do like a self-energy meditation before a coaching session. So useful. So useful. Okay. Before we get into I F S though, because I do wanna talk about that, you were initially like looking to more toward like solution focused modalities. Right.

Amanda Steed: 17:56

yeah, when I was initially in school. Um,

Steph Barron Hall: 17:59

you switched.

Amanda Steed: 18:00

I did, yes. And I think it was just like, and I don't, and I wanna emphasize like I went through, I think every, maybe every therapist, especially therapists that specialize in trauma, we go through this like it's all trauma. C B T doesn't work. Solution-focused therapy doesn't work. None of these work you have to do trauma therapy. And I will say like I have swung back more to the middle on the pendulum. I do think there's a place for all different types of therapy. Um, and I think that solution focus, like I still use Solu solution focus tools in my work with people. Right. Like one solutions solution-focused tool is the miracle question. If you were to wake up tomorrow and like all your problems were solved, what would be different? And sometimes that allows people to have an imagination for a future that they couldn't before. But because I specialize in trauma, like that is just, uh, it's just gonna be used to bypass pain, right? It's just gonna be used to find temporary solutions that don't ultimately lead to healing. And I really think that when you have a history of trauma that you have to go and do the healing before any of that kind of, um, surface level stuff is helpful. Yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 19:20

No, that makes sense to me. And I, I actually,

Amanda Steed: 19:22

actually,

Steph Barron Hall: 19:23

I think that's something that's taught a lot in coaching. Too

Amanda Steed: 19:26

yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 19:27

miracle question. But recently I was like just laying in bed and I was like, oh, the lottery, you know, I, all these news stories about the lottery and all that stuff and how it's like at this massive level. And I was laying there thinking through it and I was like, okay, what if I did win the lottery? Like, what would I do? And I'm thinking, you know, oh, I'm like, uh, setting things up in this specific way so I have like a specific amount of money every month for the rest of my life, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like for my family and like all my siblings, whatever. And then I was thinking like, but what about in the day to day, how would that change things? And I, I realized it would not solve any of my problems. It would not solve any of the immediate problems that I feel like are causing me stress in this very moment.

Amanda Steed: 20:11

yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 20:13

And it was like such a thing where it was like, okay, well good to know that surface level stuff doesn't always actually work.

Amanda Steed: 20:22

Yeah. 100%. And like, and that's good to know because. It's not an issue of like, oh, if I just had more money, I wouldn't have these problems anymore. And that can help direct you towards where you need to go. And I do think, like the miracle question does that, right? Especially with couples, that's really like, um, I heard it used from a, a couple's therapist and uh, to be able to say like, what would be different? And to imagine being with your partner and thinking, oh, we would wake up and like go slower, right? We would wake up and uh, have a slow start to our morning, sit and have coffee and talk and like you walk through your whole day when you're talking about a couple in that way, right? And you're not gonna be able to implement everything if you have children. You're not getting a slow start to your day. I'm sorry it's not happening. Uh, I may be a tired, but um, maybe that tells you that there's a lot of value in sitting down and having coffee together. One-on-one and can you make that a priority? And maybe not every day, but maybe once a week or twice a week. So I do think it's helpful, but it's not, um, I know, I was about to say it's not healing and I know there's like a solution focused therapist out there who's gonna be like, I can't believe she said that. But for the, for the kind of clients I see and the kind of work that I'm doing, it would not do the same kind of healing as the tools that I use. I'll put it that way.

Steph Barron Hall: 21:51

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so then let's talk about I F Ss. You did like win the lottery, right?

Amanda Steed: 21:58

I did, and I have, I have parts who feel like so bad because I thought that I was like, I entered the, um, so for people that don't know, like I F SS is the only official training you can get is through the I F SS Institute

Steph Barron Hall: 22:15

Internal family systems.

Amanda Steed: 22:16

Internal Family Systems Institute, the official institute. And there are like, Thousands of people. When I say thousands, I think the last official number I heard was 7,000 people on the wait list. That probably has doubled or tripled, um, because I f s is just like blowing up right now. But I f Ss has incredibly high standards for their trainings. Uh, for every one or every three people, there's one program assistant, so that you are never left alone as a participant. When you're practicing, you always have someone there who can help, and that's a lot of staff to have for a therapy training. To put it in perspective, for my E M D R training, I think there were like 60 of us in the training and there were three trainers. That's it. So, um, it's not typical to have that level of support in a training, but what happens is that now there's like this bottleneck because there's been this massive explosion in interest and so you have to enter the lottery. Uh, to get into a training. So every, like once a month or once every two months, they open up a handful of level one trainings and you have to enter the lottery. And then if you get, uh, a, if your lottery number is drawn or whatever, if you get chosen, you're not chosen to be in the training, you're chosen to apply to the training. So I had to enter five lotteries and I thought that was excessive. Um, I have friends who have been entering every single lottery, opened for two, three years and still have not gotten a spot. So the fact that like within the first like three months of trying, three and a half months of trying, I got a spot. Like I have parts that feel bad about that, but I did win the lottery, um, and applied and I'm really, really grateful that I was accepted the first time I applied. Um, but yeah, I did have to win a lottery. Maybe I should buy a ticket for the actual lottery.

Steph Barron Hall: 24:15

Hey, there you go. Maybe you should. Um,

Amanda Steed: 24:21

so

Steph Barron Hall: 24:22

could you explain just the basic principles of I F Ss for people who aren't familiar with the approach?

Amanda Steed: 24:29

Yeah. So I've kind of summarized the, the five basic assumptions. I feel like that's the easiest way to understand it. Um, so i f s stands for Internal Family Systems Therapy. And it's based on this idea that we, number one, we all have multiplicity of mind, and that doesn't mean that everyone has a D I D, which is dissociative identity disorder, which used to be called Multiple Personality Disorder. Um, this just means like, we talk like this all the time, right? Like there's a part of me that wants to go, uh, to the gym and exercise, and there's another part of me that just wants to put my pajamas on and have a movie night, right? Like, There's a part of me that feels this way, a part of me that feels this way, or there's a part of me that really wants to get my PhD, but then there's like 20 parts of me that think that's a stupid idea and a waste of money. Right? But maybe it's a personal example. Um, so we start with the assumption that everyone has multiplicity of mine. And then, um, I think I'm not positive. I, I wish that I had time to like, this isn't the only parts based therapy, right? There are other parts based therapies, but I think that the thing that sets I F Ss apart is that if f s also says everyone has a self. So that's a capital SS self. Everyone carries self energy. And I tell people, you can make this as spiritual as you want to. Right? For some people this is like the divine within this is like, um, your higher power inside this inner knowing. For other people, it's like, it's my intuition, right? It's like this, uh, this connection to what's right for me. Um, but however you define it, it is the part of you that's not a part. It doesn't have an agenda. It is, um, full of compassion and clarity and calm. Uh, you have the eight C's, like therapies, love the C's and P's, and we have the eight C's of self energy, but everyone has a self. So I f Ss would say even, um, serial killers, even people that have like a psycho psychopathy, they have a self, right? Everyone has a self. So the third assumption is that there are no bad parts. And I feel like this is really hard for people. Um, because we love good and bad. We love categorizing. Um, the dualistic mind is like really challenged by this idea that every part has a good intention and there are no bad parts. Um, so if you think about someone that, uh, is a psychopath, right? Fits criteria for a psychopath to say that they have no bad parts feels like so wild. But really it's saying like, even parts with harmful behavior have positive intentions. So even parts that do things out in the world that hurt people, their intention is towards protecting the self, protecting the person. Um, the fourth assumption is that parts can grow and change, which leads to personal growth and change. So, uh, there's not this idea that like, Um, who you are is static and like you get to know parts and they just are what they are. I think some parts therapies differentiate, um, from I F Ss in saying that parts are more like archetypes. They represent these ideas of things and I f s would say not so much. You can have parts that are like that, but all parts have the ability to change and shift and grow and do things differently. And then the last assumption, which I feel like, uh, this aligns with social work so perfectly, is that the environment matters. So even though we're doing this internal work, uh, you cannot actually do this internal work without taking the environment into consideration. So this will show up a lot of times, like in domestic violence situations. Like if someone is not safe physically or emotionally, like literally not safe within their environment, sometimes their system won't shift. Enough for them to experience relief. Um, and those situations are really challenging. Sometimes we need to, you know, in I say it ties in with social work because in social work we have this perspective of the person in the environment. We don't ever consider the person outside of their environment. Like that's, we don't see that as possible. You have to look at are their basic needs met? Are they, um, supported socially? How's their physical health, right? If I have someone who's like going through cancer treatments, I'm probably not gonna ask them to focus on healing their traumatic wounds unless they feel like they're in a place where they can do that. Their focus needs to be on healing physically. Um, so I feel like it just fits so perfectly, uh, with the social work perspective. And it's so important because a lot of times people can get into this mindset of like, well, you just have to do your own work. Right. You have to support yourself. You just have to show up and be that attachment figure for yourself. It's all about you. And it's like, no, we don't live in a vacuum. We live in the real world. We have environmental impacts, including other people in our lives. And, um, that's important to keep in mind. So those are like the five basic assumptions of I f s.

Steph Barron Hall: 30:18

Yeah. Yeah. And I think like when I think of parts work, I think the things that even people who've never heard of the system can typically identify like, oh, an inner critic, right?

Amanda Steed: 30:29

yes. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 30:30

Um, or they can be like, uh, my child likes self, like there are a lot of meditations or, or things like that where they're like, a child likes part of myself. Um, and why do you think that those are the two that people are most drawn to? Um, like is there an if f s reason for that? I don't know. This is just a random question that came outta my mind.

Amanda Steed: 30:56

yeah, so I don't, I don't know. That's interesting. I also find that there's a lot, there are a lot of people who do, um, uh, a c a adult children of alcoholics and their whole like, well, I'm not gonna say whole. I'm not so familiar with their model that I can say their whole system, but like, they focus a lot on the inner loving parent. Um, and that's really interesting to me too. That seems to be very like, important to a lot of people that they have these like internal parents there. Um, in terms of like why is the, I think it's just, they're just kind of obvious parts. Like a critic is, um, something that I think everyone has, like, everyone tends to be pretty hard on themselves and so it's really relatable. Um, and then, you know, inner child work is, it shows up across like, Not just parts therapy, right? It's like all kinds of therapy has inner child work and like healing your inner child. And I think what I would say is that I tend to not call parts like one part an inner critic. The language that I will use is like, oh, that part is bringing a lot of critical energy because people that are hard on themselves, like that is an energy that infiltrates their whole system. So a lot of their parts are oriented around criticism as a tool, criticism as a tool for being productive or criticism as a tool for acceptance from other people. Um, so lots of parts within their system will have critical energy. And then in terms of like the inner child, uh, I f Ss would say we have inner children. We have lots of younger parts that, um, do different things for us. Some of them are doing, uh, jobs for us and some of them are carrying burdens or, you know, uh, they're doing different things, but. We have lots of younger parts.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:48

Mm-hmm.

Amanda Steed: 32:49

So I think it's just like they're just relatable. I guess that would be my answer to that question. I haven't really thought about it in that way before.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:57

Yeah. And I think it's really helpful the way that you frame the critical aspects, because, um, I think for me even it's like, oh, I don't have just one inner our critic. Right? Or like, sometimes people will say, whose voice is out, or just like, tell'em to shut up. And what I found with I f S,

Amanda Steed: 33:13

Oh yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 33:13

it's like, Okay. No, that's maybe not the most useful way to work with this part. Um, so can you talk a little bit about how we can work with those really challenging parts? Maybe some of the roles they take, like firefighters, managers, exiles, et

Amanda Steed: 33:28

Yeah. I told that's, I'm glad you asked that question'cause I was like, Ooh, I feel like we need to slow down a little bit'cause I'm not gonna make any sense if we don't, uh, talk about the different types of parts. So, um, first I'll talk a little bit about the goals of if f s therapy. And I will say these are. How I look at the goals of I f S therapy. This is not an I F SS Institute thing or a thing from my training. It's literally just like, um, why I love using it and the goals I have with my clients when I use it. So the number one goal is to build a self to part relationship, right? So you have this self-energy and you want a self-led system. You want a system that relies on self-energy in order to make decisions and kind of go through life. And a lot of the work that we do in session is all about helping these parts really trust the self and building this relationship of trust. Um, and then for me, a secondary goal is to go to vulnerable parts to that are carrying wounds to offer healing, which then frees up energy within the system to redistribute in a different way. That's very simplified, but that's kind of. That part of the process in a nutshell. And then the third one is like this unlike any other therapy that I have ever experienced, um, this gives my clients a tool that they can take with them outside of therapy and use for the rest of their lives. So the other therapy that I use a lot of times in conjunction with I F S is E M D R, and I love E M D R. It's incredibly powerful. It's amazing. I would never send my clients out into the world and be like, just do E M D R on yourself if you start to feel overwhelmed in the future, right? Like that is something that needs like the guidance of a therapist. Um, and it's very specialized training, whereas I F Ss is this, um, really like a personal growth tool, spiritual tool, like however you wanna frame it, that you carry with you for the rest of your life. So when we talk about like healing vulnerable parts and like building this self depart relationship, um, There are three different types of parts. So they can be broken down into proactive protective parts, which we call managers, reactive protective parts, which we call firefighters, and then vulnerable parts, which we call exiles. So within a system, what we typically see is that the more vulnerable parts are carrying burdens and burdens are, um, negative beliefs about yourself or negative beliefs about the world, or expectations that have been placed on you, or, um, really just like the, the thing that feels heavy and activating the thing that you like, avoid feeling, right? When people say, I was so triggered, that says that a vulnerable part has been touched on, right? So, um, Those are pushed really to the edges of our system or deep down in our system, that's why they're called exiles, is because they've been exiled from the system and pushed far away. The reason they're pushed far away is because they cause pain and they cause, uh, or at least the perception by protective parts is that they cause pain that's overwhelming to the system. And so then you have parts who are protecting those more vulnerable parts, uh, and the manager parts are doing things to kind of get ahead of it, to kind of like plan so that those parts never get activated. Right. So these are things like people pleasing. If I have a people pleasing part who comes in and says yes to everyone, then I don't ever have to experience the pushback of someone saying, I don't like that you've said no to me. And then. My exiled part, my more vulnerable part that says I'm not good enough and that people don't like me, and that I am not gonna have any friends that never gets touched if I people please all the time. Well, these manager parts are often younger than us, um, and they get tired or life gets busy and overwhelming and our system is kind of run down. And when these manager parts, uh, can't use their strategies anymore and for lack of a better word, fail, and those exiles do get activated, then our reactive protectors come in. And reactive protectors or firefighters are, um, parts that either get really big, right? If you think of the window of tolerance, these are the parts that come in that are like way up high outside of our window of tolerance. So like, I'm really angry or I'm really activated. Um, overwhelmed with emotion. Overcome with emotion, can't get control of it, or parts that come in and shut it down. So this is dissociation. Um, scrolling on our phones. Um, another example that would be kind of like high energy is like shopping. Any kind of addictive, uh, behavior would be considered a firefighter part most of the time. I will say if, if the addictive behavior, behavior is been being used to prevent the pain. So if I'm drinking every day so I never have to feel the pain, that's probably more a proactive part, like a manager part. Um, if something happens and I get activated and I'm binge drinking, that's more of a firefighter part,

Steph Barron Hall: 39:15

Got it.

Amanda Steed: 39:16

right?'cause it's reactive. So those are the kind of, uh, parts in general.

Steph Barron Hall: 39:22

Mm-hmm.

Amanda Steed: 39:23

And then I actually cannot remember the first question you said, like, how would you. Encourage someone to work with a critic? Is that, was that the Yeah, like, um,

Steph Barron Hall: 39:32

we've heard things like,

Amanda Steed: 39:36

tell it to shut up.

Steph Barron Hall: 39:37

oh, just shut up.

Amanda Steed: 39:38

Um, yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 39:39

kind of fight back with it. But when, when I've started working with I f S, it's like, wait, no.

Amanda Steed: 39:46

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 39:47

You know, there's something really important that, that, that part wants to say. Um, so how, how can we work with that differently?

Amanda Steed: 39:55

yeah, so I think like, slowing down and getting into self energy. So in I F Ss, uh, the way that we, um, access self, self-energy is by asking parts for space, right? So like, seeing if these different parts will give us space so that we can just be with the one part we're trying to get to know one-on-one. And then once we're with that part one-on-one and we're holding self-energy, all of that, like, um, I would say like, The part that says, like, tell that part to shut up. Like that's just another part. And those parts come in, right? So if I'm working with a client, I'm gonna say, um, hey, as you keep your attention on this part that's coming in with this critical energy, how do you feel towards that part? And that's gonna tell me like, are you in self-energy? How much self-energy are you holding? Because if they're in self-energy, they might say something like, I'm feeling really curious about it. I wanna know why it does what it does. Or they might say, oh, I just feel so, like, I feel like I wanna help this part. I feel like I can see how hard it's working and I, I really want it to rest. Well, that's gonna tell me we're in self-energy, we're feeling compassion towards this part. Um, but most of the time, and I emphasize this because I think a lot of people will get into doing I F SS therapy and think like, oh, I'm doing it wrong. Like, I can't, I don't feel those, uh, self qualities towards this part. That's normal. Because our parts are used to running the show. So most of the time when I say, when you turn your attention towards that part, who comes in with the criticism? How do you feel? It's usually like, I want it to shut up. I want it to go away. I hate that part. I can't stand it. And that tells me there's another part. Oh, so there's another part of you that's shown up and that part feels so angry. It feels so angry that this part is coming in with criticism and um, it just wants it to go away. Like, can we ask that part that's coming in, feeling angry to give you enough space so that you can just be with this part that feels critical. That way, um, you can hear from it and hear why it's doing what it's doing. And sometimes those parts will give us space and sometimes they won't. We have lots of tricks like can it go to a waiting room? And then we ask like, Is there anything that it's afraid would happen if it left you with this part that is being critical because sometimes our parts are like, you can't handle this critic. I handle this critic all the time. I tell it to shut up all the time. I keep it quiet for you. I can't leave you one-on-one with this guy. He's gonna tear you apart. And it's really just like allowing your parts to see like, no, I can handle it. It's okay.

Steph Barron Hall: 42:36

Or like I'm an adult now, like,

Amanda Steed: 42:37

100%. It's very much in alignment with, um, respectful parenting and like this, like, I'm just gonna stay calm. Like I can handle it. I can handle all of your big feelings. I can handle you screaming at me, I can handle you telling me that you're angry, like, I've got it. I'm good. And really showing that to your part so that they'll give you space. And then we're gonna spend time, like once we can hold self energy towards this part most of the time. Something transforms. So this part that was being like very critical and very mean and just like hateful and what feels really bad all of a sudden gets like dissolved and you can see like, oh my gosh, this part is just like, it's just like this 12 year old kid that is really afraid that I'm not gonna get anything done if it doesn't tell me how horrible I am.

Steph Barron Hall: 43:31

Yeah.

Amanda Steed: 43:32

Right? And we get to hear the intention behind this part, um, this part strategy for safety.'cause these are all just strategies for safety, strategies for protection. Um, and when we hear that positive intention, we can offer appreciation to it. So it really opens up the space so that I no longer feel this like, um, like battle with myself inside myself. I have compassion for the different parts of myself that are showing up and trying to protect me in different ways.

Steph Barron Hall: 44:05

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I just wanted to touch on really quick the eight C's and five P's.

Amanda Steed: 44:13

Yeah. Do you want, do you wanna go over them or do you want me to pull them up and go over them? I don't have them memorized, so I would

Steph Barron Hall: 44:19

well I was just gonna read them off really quick.

Amanda Steed: 44:22

sure.

Steph Barron Hall: 44:23

So I think it might be useful to kind of frame this in like the qualities of self. So like you can kind of sense that you're in self energy, um, when the eight.

Amanda Steed: 44:32

the eight,

Steph Barron Hall: 44:32

Eight C's and five P's.

Amanda Steed: 44:34

know they love, they love the letters, all therapies, love the letters, eight C's and five piece.

Steph Barron Hall: 44:41

But when those are present, so you've already mentioned like compassion and curiosity, but then we have courage, clarity, creativity connected, confidence calm, and then the five P's are presence, perspective, patience, playfulness, and persistence. So those qualities can be internal indications like, oh, I'm in self-energy versus not.

Amanda Steed: 45:03

yeah. And I think like, you know, I just wrapped up this, or I'm about to wrap up next week. Uh, this demo group that I did with therapist where, um, I just do a demo with a different therapist in the group every week and they get to see I f Ss kind of like play out in real time and I don't always hear, I feel compassion or I feel curiosity. And I think this is really where as a therapist, it's so important that I am in self energy so that I can get a sense for where my client is. Because sometimes people will say, oh, I feel really sad. And if, if you're not really attuned to your client, you may jump to straight to like, oh, that's a part that's feeling sorry for this part. That's not self energy, but. I will often ask a lot of clarifying questions like, when you say you feel sad, do you feel sympathy? Like you feel sorry for this part? Um, or do you feel compassion? Like you really wanna help it and you just wanna show up and see what happens? And that the answer to that question allows me to know, like, is there another part there? Or are we in self-energy? This can be, um, a huge hurdle for people if, uh, it's not framed in the right way because we have parts who are like, I'm not doing it right. I'm not in self-energy. I don't feel compassion. I don't feel these specific, very specific things. And really it's like, do you have enough self energy to be self-led?

Steph Barron Hall: 46:42

Mm

Amanda Steed: 46:43

a lot of times, uh, I don't stress too much about this because your system will self-correct.

Steph Barron Hall: 46:49

hmm.

Amanda Steed: 46:49

This part isn't going to that softening that happens that like, Um, transformation that that often happens isn't gonna happen if you're not in self-energy. Uh, they're gonna, it's, the part's gonna feel defensive because it's not experiencing you in self. It, they're experiencing another part. So you can kind of trust your system that whatever needs to happen is gonna happen and trust that. Like we all have the ability to hold self energy. Like it's, yeah, it's something I just feel like people can get so tripped up on this and then the critical energy really comes in of like, I'm not doing it right. I must not be. Um, like I, I have a lot of people who are like, I don't have any access to self-energy. I'm like, yeah, you do. I like, I hear it all the time with my clients. Right. Um, it's just a matter of practicing. It's a practice.

Steph Barron Hall: 47:46

Yeah. Well, yeah, and I think, um, For me with I F Ss, I think in my own practice There has been a challenge of being like, um, I need to know, actually this is true of like other therapy modalities too. Like I need to kind of have some sort of like, understanding of how this is working,

Amanda Steed: 48:10

Oh

Steph Barron Hall: 48:10

right? Like a part of me really needs that. Right? Um, and it's interesting'cause it's not like once I understand it, then it doesn't work. It's like, no, it works more because I'm understanding the mechanisms. Um, and I think too, I can see the parts differently too. Like I've had more impactful moments with I F Ss. Um, Doing my own work, like not in a therapy session, because when I'm in a therapy session there, there's like some little part of me that's always like, oh, let me keep an eye on the time. Like, let me make sure, you know, I'm not getting too close to the end of our session. And, um, all that stuff. Mm-hmm.

Amanda Steed: 48:51

Yeah. And also like, I don't, I don't know if that shows up for you, but something that I am like so aware of and like my own parts is this like wanting to make my therapist happy and like me and like sometimes I don't wanna really share what parts are showing up because some of my parts do not look pretty. Right. Like some of my parts are trying to protect me in ways that other parts feel really embarrassed by. And so, um, it's not very often unless I get a therapist who has like I F SS training or who like, has done i f s before, or I get a person who's done a lot of work in therapy before, I don't usually jump straight into doing internal uh, parts work with clients. Until we have a good rapport and until they get to see that unconditional positive regard that I have for them. And I also often listen for parts that may trigger shame and just name them and don't make a big deal about'em. Like, oh, it sounds like in this situation, I can imagine how you would have a part that really hates your friend for how they showed up. That's just like pissed off and once revenge. And often people are like, is that okay to say? Like, am I allowed to say that? Like, yeah, it doesn't have to be true, right? Like, it doesn't, it's just a perspective. It's just a perspective within your system. It doesn't mean that's how you're operating in the world. But um, I think there can be a lot of things that can keep like really deep work from happening in therapy that then. A person can go outside. Once they know how it works and they know the steps and they know the process, they can go outside of therapy and have a lot easier time, which is the thing I love about it. Like I love that my clients, like, I can't tell you how often I have clients come back and say, oh my gosh, this past week I was talking to my mom and she did that thing that I hate. That usually just sets me off and like I go off and I get triggered and just like, and instead I was able to pause and notice that part coming up that wanted to defend me and just ask it to give me the space to just sit with my mom. And then I was able to communicate really clearly, right? Like clarity is one of the eight C's. Communicate really clearly. I feel hurt when you talk to me like that. And now even it doesn't matter how the, the other person responds, this person has a tool that allows them to work with their system. And be oriented towards, um, showing up in the world how they wanna show up. And that's my, my, I tell most of my clients in my first session with them, like, my goal for therapy is that you can fire me as soon as it's safe for you to do so. As soon as you can go back in the world and support yourself and be surrounded by people who support you, um, like I want you to be able to do that. And some people, you know, some people wanna be with me forever'cause I'm amazing. But for those that don't, for those that would rather spend the money they're spending on therapy on like shoes or like coffee or whatever, like, it's great to have this tool that you can like take outside into your life with you.

Steph Barron Hall: 52:12

Yeah. Um, yeah, I, I. I appreciate that about I f Ss in particular because like you mentioned, um, being able to use it outside of therapy can be powerful.

Amanda Steed: 52:25

Yeah. And I do think there are clearly like, Okay, cognitive behavioral therapy, you can do that as well. But, um, I feel like the, the more I get to know i f s, if you're not practicing c B T from a parts perspective or from like a more compassionate perspective, it really is just like shutting down parts of yourself. It's doing the thing you said of like telling your critic to shut up of dismissing. Like, oh, that's just a thought. I don't have to do anything with that. And that's an option. But you also can like, acknowledge it as a part and show compassion to it. And I feel like, uh, it just leads to more healing. It's, you go, you move from a space of coping, coping with life to healing so that you can like thrive so that you have energy freed up to do other things.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:17

Yeah. That's so powerful and helpful. And I know that you've mentioned working with like spiritual trauma or like anxiety disorders, A D H D codependency, all of these things. And how do you find I F Ss techniques really help address some of those challenges?

Amanda Steed: 53:37

yeah, that's a really good question. I feel like with spiritual trauma and anxiety disorders, I'm gonna give you one answer and then some of it will tie into A D H D, but I'm gonna like frame that a little bit differently. Um, so it's not very often not going to make a complete statement here. It's not very often that I have someone in my office that has an anxiety disorder, that doesn't have some history of trauma. That is not always true. And I wanna emphasize and maybe like define my terms here, right? Like some people hear trauma, they think big T trauma, traumatic, single incident, horrible thing that happened. And I wanna emphasize that trauma is all about perception, which is why two people can go through the exact same thing and one person can have P T S D and the other person cannot, right? There are lots of factors that play there, obviously, but one of the factors and a big factor is perception. So one person can be in class in third grade, have a teacher call them out in front of the entire classroom and say, Susie, look at your own paper. And one person can perceive that. It's like, man, my teacher's a. Which we're third grade, right? My teacher's a meanie. It's gonna cuss, but I'll refrain. They can see like, it's not really about me. Like most kids don't do that. But some kids have the ability at that age to say, man, my teacher's having a bad day, or My teacher was mean to me today. Right? They see it's about the teacher's behavior, whereas you have another kid who would say, oh my God, I'm so horrible. That's, I'm, I'm like, there's something wrong with me. Why can't I just pay attention what I was doing? Now I need to pay like extra attention that I'm always doing what's right and that I'm all, I have parts that are like very hypervigilant. Paying attention, like that is traumatic and trauma exists on a spectrum. And, um, the, the thing that's tricky about. I'm putting this in quotation marks, little T trauma and Big T trauma, both in quotation marks. Our brain doesn't know the difference. A negative belief that we have about ourselves is true, whether it's a little T or Big T, right? So the way that I f ss can help with trauma is that we go to those parts that are carrying the wounds, that are carrying the burdens, and we allow them to be witnessed, um, by self. So they get to tell their story. Um, and when we're holding self energy, we have the ability to stay really regulated so it doesn't feel overwhelming. And the same thing happens with E M D R, with bilateral stimulation, right? That keeps us within our window of tolerance. Uh, so we go to these more vulnerable parts. We offer healing. They get to unburden these beliefs. So when we talk about unburdening, it's letting go of these beliefs or expectations that have been carried. So that little kid that took on that belief of like, I'm not good. I'm not a good person. Um, I'm not good enough. I have to be perfect, right? Like all these beliefs, we allow this part to unburden that belief and we, it has a somatic element as well, right? We're checking in with the body. So we're letting go of the belief in general, which is the thought, and then we're checking in with like, where's this stored in your body? And can we unburden that as well? Can we let go of that as well? And then we are going through a few more steps. We offer. Uh, sometimes we offer a do-over, which means like we give this part an opportunity to experience that differently. So that may just mean imagining it happening differently, and the part usually can tell you what they need, um, or to leave a situation that doesn't feel good. Sometimes parts feel stuck in a certain place, so we offer. A retrieval or we offer a do-over, and then we invite this part after it's unburdened and let go of these heavy things that it's carrying to take in positive qualities. So take in the things that it hasn't had space for because it's been carrying these burdens. So when I'm working with trauma, spiritual trauma, um, anxiety disorders, even depression in some cases, like different diagnoses, that's really the process that we're going through. Um, and then what we see is that once the trauma is healed, these proactive and reactive parts are freed up to do something else. And that's where we see that they usually choose like really creative things like they're, they're choosing things that are more self-led, that carry a lot of self-energy. Um, with A D H D, what I have seen most often, It's like one working with shame that exists within the system because, uh, especially, you know, I tend tend to specialize in women with a D H D and a lot of times women that come to me haven't been diagnosed until they come to me. And, uh, it's something that's just been missed. And once they get their diagnosis, there's either shame in like, why didn't I notice this sooner? Why didn't I get help sooner? Or there's shame in like, what's wrong with me? Why can't I do things as well as other people? Or a lot of times these are high achieving women who have not really had problems because they're so over-functioning, right? They've like, um, made up for this deficit that they didn't even realize that they had until their whole system breaks down and they're exhausted. So a lot of times what I find with my clients that I'm working with, with A D H D, if we're using I F Ss, they are, they've hit burnout, they're exhausted, and it's really about getting to know these parts and what the parts need in order to not feel so tired, not feel burnt out. And it's different for everyone, right? Like some people, um, take medication, some people wanna learn different, uh, like strategies for around like helping the executive dysfunction. It's really different with every person. But what's great is that instead of just kind of like throwing something in the wall and seeing what sticks, we're going inside your system and we're getting to know what parts are there and what they need. We just get to ask. We have to ask. And Frank Anderson is one of the like, um, most amazing I f Ss teachers out there, in my opinion. And he's a psychiatrist and he. Uh, I never heard anyone say this, and it made so much sense to me, but he actually, uh, when he was still practicing, I don't think he sees clients anymore, but when he was still practicing, he would ask clients, go inside and see like, is this anxiety that you're feeling apart, that's showing up? Or is this something biological? Like, is there a part that wants to take responsibility or is this something that the body is doing? And he said he's never had a, a situation where the system didn't tell him. And so he, like, I love that perspective because, um, you know, I think I'm pretty open about the fact that I have a D H d I think you are as well. And there was a lot of shame for me in taking medication. Like, I, one of the first big pieces of I F Ss work that I did was really working with parts that wanted medication desperately and other parts who. Had so many ideas about what it meant about me if I took medication.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:01:58

Hmm

Amanda Steed: 1:01:58

And hearing him frame it that way was so freeing because I was like, oh, it's not, it's not just psychological, it's also biological. There is a biological component to it. So I think, I feel like I'm kind of all over the place in answering your question, but I think I use it to work with different people in different ways. But that's kind of what I see when I'm working with like trauma versus A D H D is really specific, like it's an area I specialize in. And so I see these themes coming up pretty regularly. Um, but really just seeing like what parts are at play, what do these parts need, and is there healing that needs to happen?

Steph Barron Hall: 1:02:36

mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that's a, a good call out on the, um, Like the A D H D aspect, um, because there is a lot of conversation around like, is it biological? Is it, you know, how you're raised or whatever. And especially like in the past couple years, I've seen more and more people say, oh, it's just'cause everyone's on their phone all the time, so they have no attention. Right. Um, but then you listen to Gabor Mateo and I feel like I heard him talk about it a couple times on a podcast of being like, okay, there's like, Attachment stuff. There's like stress responses. I mean, Pete Walker, who, you know, coined Fawn of the four F's, Um, he talks about a D H D being like an extreme flight response. Um, so there, there are all these different perspectives on it and then you have people saying, oh, it's literally a brain difference. And then other people say, no, there's no brain difference. You know, all these perspectives. And um, I think it's helpful to be like, well, we don't have to figure all that out on a grand scale for this moment. What we need to do is go inside and, and see.

Amanda Steed: 1:03:48

yeah, yeah. And like, it can be different for everyone, right? It's different for everyone. And I wish the, I just like, I can't remember what the exact question was, but there was like, A hypothetical question posed to me like, if you could fix one or know one thing, that's what it was. If you could know one thing, what's the one question you would ask? And I hate those questions. Like I hate narrowing things down. Uh, but I finally landed on like, what is the cause of mental health difficulties? And then I want the whole answer. We don't have it as humans right now, right? Like that would have, the aliens would have to come back and give it to us. We don't have it. I think what's really frustrating is that some people think that we do. And there, like there's a huge push from by the pharmaceutical companies to say it's a chemical dependency or a, a chemical imbalance. It's a chemical imbalance. And the thing is like make sometimes, sure. But I love, um, the analogy that I've heard is like when you have a headache, And you take an aspirin, it makes your headache go away. Does that mean that you've had an aspirin deficiency in your body or a deficit of aspirin? No, it means it treated the, the symptom. And I think the thing is we have to be okay with treating the symptom. It's okay that we're just treating the symptom, but that also means we need to stay curious about what is going on underneath that's causing the issue. So I will say like, I wish that we knew, but what I also wish that people understood is that all of these are theories.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:05:34

Yeah.

Amanda Steed: 1:05:35

We don't know anything for sure. Which is like, I hate saying that. Um, I hate it because I, you know, I'm an eight. I wanna know, I wanna like know that I know I want certainty. I want it to be black and white. I wanna know exactly what to do, um, and what works. And the truth is that like everyone's system is different. And the thing I love about I F S is that it allows space for that because. What the work that I did that ultimately led to me saying, I'm gonna try a D H D medication and see how it works for me. And then revisit and, and make a decision from there. Um, another person may go inside and land in a place of like, I want medication to be the la the last thing I try, like their clarity for everyone is different. And I f Ss really, um, takes the pressure off of me as a therapist to know the answer for my client and really allows my client to find that on their own. Like they get to go on a mission to like understand themselves better, which is really fun to witness

Steph Barron Hall: 1:06:43

Yeah. Yeah, that's a really helpful way to frame it. Um, and a lot of gray area, which,

Amanda Steed: 1:06:50

yes, lots of

Steph Barron Hall: 1:06:51

you know, lots of growth for an eight.

Amanda Steed: 1:06:54

You know, I will say like the. Because I like, I think if I had to choose one specialization, one area of specialization, it would be spiritual trauma. Like, I don't think that would be surprising to most people who have ever heard me talk about anything. Um, and something that I've, I've, like most people that I'm working with within spiritual trauma are coming outta fundamentalist faith tradition. So either, um, usually Christian Evangelical Christianity, um, but also because of the group practice that I was at, um, I have had Muslim clients who are like coming out of this like very fundamentalist Muslim tradition. And the thing that I see within those two, uh, things I've seen really often is this like worship of certainty.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:07:42

Mm-hmm.

Amanda Steed: 1:07:44

And I think like self energy offers something so much more expansive. Like instead of needing to be certain about something, I have clarity about something. And I can feel really calm without needing to know for sure. But you know what? I know what is the right next step for me. And that feels really good without having to become too attached to any outcome. So I don't have to be certain, I don't have to know with 100% certainty how things are gonna go or if it's gonna land my way, or all I need to know is like within my system, what is aligned with my values and what feels good to me. And using I f Ss gives me the clarity of that decision,

Steph Barron Hall: 1:08:31

Yeah,

Amanda Steed: 1:08:32

which I feel like, uh, yeah, I think eights can worship certainty too.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:08:38

yeah.

Amanda Steed: 1:08:39

And it is like a lot of gray to, um, navigate through.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:08:45

I mean, that's just how our society is, like our culture is, I think too, I don't know. I can't really be objective about that. Like I am type three. Like I, also worship certainty. I'm like, yeah, I want the answer. Um, yes. Uh, so, okay, so one other question that I have for you is, um, for therapists who are like wanting to incorporate I f Ss

Amanda Steed: 1:09:09

mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:09:11

um, or they wanna deepen their skills, help get started, maybe they've tried the lottery and they're like, okay, well what else can I do here? Um, what do you recommend?

Amanda Steed: 1:09:21

Yeah, so I, I'm gonna have basic, uh, suggestions and then maybe a couple more specific. So the basic suggestion is, um, Frank Anderson is a great place to start. Frank Anderson has a book called Transcending Trauma that I actually is, I think it's great for therapists and non therapists. Um, but I will say some

Steph Barron Hall: 1:09:44

read it. Will that surprise

Amanda Steed: 1:09:45

Of course you have. Yeah. No, that doesn't like, I say the name of a book and then two days later you're like, I read it and I love it, and I'm like, oh my God, Steph. It's literally like, I requested it at the library. I haven't even read it yet. Like the, the most avid reader I know. Probably. Um, yeah, so as a non therapist, which I actually, I know we joke that like, you know more about therapy than some therapists I know. So I don't even know that you can really give an opinion as a quote unquote non therapist, but you're not a therapist. So like how did that land for you reading that book?

Steph Barron Hall: 1:10:19

It was really eye-opening. Um, and there was something about, so ob it's written for the clinician, right? So it's like, this is how you work with this person or a person who has these parts coming up. But that was actually useful for me because I think depersonalizing a bit did actually really help me understand it for myself a bit more. Um, and it also explains more of the background, which like I liked no bad parts, um, by Richard Schwartz. Um, Dick Schwartz I think is whatever. Um, but I just don't like calling anyone dick unless they

Amanda Steed: 1:10:54

you know what? I don't either. And, uh, people just refer to him as Dick, like offhandedly, like that's what he goes by. That is his name. But I am feel discomfort every time.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:11:08

Yeah. Anyway, so, um, I liked no bad parts, but I think what I like about transcending trauma is like, I wanna understand the, the mechanisms that are happening and like the attachment stuff and you know, developmental trauma, all that good stuff. So,

Amanda Steed: 1:11:27

Yeah. It's so, it's so good and it's simple. He's such a good teacher. He is such a good teacher. Um, so I would say his book is great and also he has a training on pessie. Um, and it's called treating complex trauma or treat, yeah, treating complex trauma with I F Ss. I can't remember if it's complex. P T S D or complex trauma. I think it's complex trauma. That one's great. And he is going to say like, and I'm going to say if you have not completed a level one through the I F SS Institute, doing unburdening can be tricky. Okay? So he goes over the unburdening process, but what he would say is, if you're working with trauma, you should know how to do this process within your own skillset. So if you're trained in E M D R or A E D P or um, trauma-focused C B T, like any tools that are developed for treating trauma have a process for treating the trauma when you get to it. So what he would say is, use I F Ss. To work with the protective system to give you access to the trauma, to get permission to go to the trauma, and then use the tools that you have, like then switch over to a different tool that you're competent in. I actually, I mean, I think that you can be competent in i f s without getting training from the I f S Institute. Um, but I also understand and so respect that, um, people's ability to judge whether they are competent or not isn't always there. And so those safeguards are up for a reason. So Frank's Pessi training or his book would be a great, um, start. Also Dr. Becky's book, good Inside. It is not an I F Ss book, but it is I f Ss. And it's like the way that she talks about speaking to our children, uh, the way that she talks about parenting, the way that she talks about parenting ourselves. I'm pretty sure she's trained in I F Ss. I think she's been on, uh, Glennon's podcast and talked about I F Ss before. Uh, her book is great just for like understanding, um, re-parenting and like offering those parts of yourself more gentle approaches. Um, and then I'll say if someone's trained in E M D R and wants to learn how to incorporate I F Ss with E M D R, uh, Dr. Kendall Hart has a great training where she's developed a protocol that does exactly that. Her training gives you like a very good introduction to I f s, like a really solid introduction. It's a three day training. It's MDR a approved, so you get your CEUs for, uh, E M D R certification if you're working towards that or maintaining that. Um, and the way. That E M D R and I f s pair together is so beautiful, and I'm almost to the point where I will not use one without the other. Uh, they just pair so well together. So if you're trained in E M D R and you want to learn more about that, uh, I would recommend Kendall's training and then just in general. Um, a lot of times, like the official textbook for a therapy, it could be really dry. The actual like official text for E M D R was like pulling teeth to get through the official text for I f s is not hard to read. It is an easy read. Um, and so I would recommend that it's just like internal Family System, second edition or whatever. It's like I can give you the link to put in the, the notes, but I would recommend therapists read that. I think a lot of people who go through a level one don't even actually read it. It's required reading, but. Who does. I just found out within the last year that not everyone does the required reading. It's like very shocking to me. Um, but it's required reading for a level one and it's great. It, it has everything in there that you could need. Uh, and then I would say seek out consultation,

Steph Barron Hall: 1:15:50

Mm-hmm.

Amanda Steed: 1:15:51

like whether you're doing E M D R and I F Ss or you're just doing I f S, you can meet with an I F S Con consultant even if you're not working towards certification. Um, receiving ongoing consultation has been like one of the best things that I've done for myself as a therapist. I learn so much from my consultants and I feel like it just makes me a better therapist and it can really kind of be like a fast track towards the solution that you're looking for. Um, and also just keep entering the lotteries like you will get in eventually, eventually.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:16:28

Eventually,

Amanda Steed: 1:16:29

I don't know when.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:16:32

Yeah. Um, okay, so before we go to our final questions, where can people find you? Um, you know, if they wanna be your client or if they want to just hang out?

Amanda Steed: 1:16:45

so it's super simple. It's just amanda ste.com. Um, and I am in Texas, but I'm licensed in Colorado and Washington state as well. If you are not in Texas, Colorado, or Washington state, I cannot be your therapist. Um, as much as I would love to. Um, but I am like, this is the social worker in me. If you email me, I will send you referrals. I know people all over the country. Um, if I don't know someone personally who is in your state, I have a great connection. Uh, or great, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Network. I have a great network within the I F S community. I can find you someone who's either in your state or who is an I F S practitioner because an I F S practitioner is not limited by, uh, what state lines. Um, and then also you can visit my website if you're interested in doing consultation. I run, um, I'm an E M D R consultant in training and I'm doing like E M D R plus I f SS consultation. So if you are trying to incorporate those two things together, um, I have some groups coming up for that. And then I mentioned earlier that I ran a demo group for therapists. Uh, I'm gonna be kick-starting another group. I don't have dates for it yet. I did. And then I did the A D H D thing where I was like, I wanna rework the whole thing and took it down. And I'll have a date later. So you can also can email me and let me know that you're interested in that, um, or interested in more information on that. And I'll add you to the wait list.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:18:20

Perfect. Okay, that's great. And I'll link all of that in the show notes too.

Amanda Steed: 1:18:25

Awesome.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:18:27

Okay. Final two questions.

Amanda Steed: 1:18:28

questions. Oh no,

Steph Barron Hall: 1:18:31

So,

Amanda Steed: 1:18:32

we're laughing because I told Steph beforehand that I hadn't come up with an answer to these questions and I honestly, oh wait. I just saw a book on my shelf that

Steph Barron Hall: 1:18:41

it always happens. It this always happens. Tell me about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year.

Amanda Steed: 1:18:49

Okay. So the book I'm gonna choose for this, and it may have been a little over a year ago that I read it, but that's okay because it's been the book that probably has like impacted me the most in the past couple of years. It's called the Persuaders. And I'm afraid if I say his name, I'm not gonna say it correctly, but it's Anand I can't say his last name. Gidi. I've heard it said, but it's been a while. So it's G I R i D H A R A D A S. Um, I heard an interview with him on Brene Brown's podcast and like a true eight. Um, I went through a period in my life where politics was like everything to me, like, and especially given the political climate, right? Like, um, being a social worker in the political climate that we've had the last several years. Um, I did, before I finished school, I was doing a lot of political organizing, um, registering voters. And I got really burnt out and um, it kind of, I started getting to a place like not quite nihilistic, not quite like everything is awful in a waste, but like, is there a point I'm doing all this, like I'm tired. And um, this book follows different people who are really good at persuading, but in really, um, effective ways that aren't harmful.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:20:30

Mm-hmm.

Amanda Steed: 1:20:30

I'll put it that way. It might be hurtful sometimes might hurt your feelings sometimes, but not harmful. Um, and hearing the different stories was just like so encouraging that even though a lot of what we see in the loudest voices in the room are really awful. And I'm gonna go ahead and say on both sides. Right. Like I wasn't just getting burnout with like people that disagreed with me. It was like how the people that agreed with me were talking about the other side, and that's in quotation marks and how dehumanizing it was becoming. And just like, it just kind of made me sick to my stomach. Um, this book like renewed my hope in people in the fact that there are people that are like working to change minds respectfully and like without dehumanizing people. So that would be the book that I would, I choose.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:21:30

Yeah. Okay. I'll link it up, have it read it. And I

Amanda Steed: 1:21:35

talk to you in two days.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:21:36

just kidding. I'm trying. I tried to set a limit for myself this week, but it hasn't stuck. So, um, what is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Amanda Steed: 1:21:50

So when you are trained in E M D R, There is a saying that slow is fast. And what this means is that a lot of people that do E M D R will just jump right in and jump right into like processing trauma. Um, getting into what, like what we call phase four E M D R, which is like the actual reprocessing. And in E M D R, what slow is fast means is that if you take your time upfront and you go slow and you hear someone's story and you really listen to it and you look for patterns and you hear like what's going on in their life, um, and you take your time and build trust between you and the person you're working with, and then also really prepare this person's system for the work that they're about to do, that when you get into the work, it'll go fast. And I feel like this translates to like everything. And it's so hard in my ness when I am like in my ness, I wanna go fast, I wanna figure things out, I wanna make decisions, I wanna take action. I don't wanna think about it. Um, and then you add in that I have a D H D and that can add impulsiveness. And like the thing is that sometimes my intuition is so good that it works out for me. And that's actually really dangerous because that creates this story that like, I have to do it fast because, uh, otherwise I'll overthink it. And I feel like slow is fast applies like across the board to almost every area of my life. So whether it's like in my work with clients and working on trauma or like making a decision for what schools are best for my kids or like what's the next right step in my business? Like there's a lot of benefit to slowing down. Because of how much it can, and this is where like it's, it like satisfies something within my aness, right? I think there are some types on the Enneagram that would be like, slow is great. And that is, that would never be my motto, but the fact that if I'm slow now, it'll be fast later. I can get onboard with that.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:24:11

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's just gotta be fast at some point.

Amanda Steed: 1:24:14

at some point. We gotta pick up speed and we gotta get things done.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:24:18

Yeah, yeah. No, but that's great. And I think, you know, I appreciate the, the amount of like reverence that you have for your clients and the work that they're doing and the way that they approach it. And I think that that motto really honors that.

Amanda Steed: 1:24:32

yeah, 100% there. Like, um, Carl Rogers says like, the client is the expert of their own lives. And that is like the, if I had to choose like one guiding principle of my therapeutic, uh, belief, it would be that like I don't ever know more than my client does about. Their own life and about their own system, which is why I F Ss is like perfect for me as a therapist. So in alignment with that.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:24:58

Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Okay, cool. Well, we covered it.

Amanda Steed: 1:25:06

awesome. We did it.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:25:08

Thanks so much for coming on the

Amanda Steed: 1:25:09

Yeah, thanks for having me. So

Steph Barron Hall: 1:25:11

was really fun. Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify