Writing an Enneagram Murder Mystery as an Enneagram 9 with Kate Hallock

Steph Barron Hall: 1:38

hello, and welcome back to Instagram in real life, a podcast where we delve into how to actually apply the Instagram in our daily lives. I'm your host, Steph Baron hall. And today we have a bit of an interesting episode for you. So. Today's guest reached out to me via Instagram, which is where I first get in touch with a lot of guests. And she kind of said, you know, I wrote this book about the Enneagram and I'd love to talk about it. And. Aye. It got me thinking. Um, I love to read if you listen to the podcast, often you already know that. Um, and I really love to read. Like thrillers or mysteries books like that. So, I thought it might be fun because we all have the Instagram here and a lot of us do love to read. I'm pretty sure. So I figured we could just create a book club. So today we are talking about part one of our book club series. We will be reading nine ways to die in any gram murder, mystery by Kate Hallock. And. Going into this episode. I have not read the book yet. I have no idea what's about to happen, um, in any of this. And so it was kind of tricky today during the podcast too. Ask Kate, a lot of the questions. That I would typically ask a guest. Without getting any spoilers, because today we're just kind of delving into her writing process and she had some really great advice on nines and writing and like how to kind of hone your voice and, and, and bring that out as a writer. And so we'll be talking about all of that stuff and a little bit of her behind the scenes process of how she actually wrote the book. And then in our next installment of the series, which will be in about three weeks, um, you will get to hear from Kate again, and we'll be talking again about this book and we'll kind of go behind the scenes. So. Today, you're hearing the, you know, unspoiled version of it. So, you can go ahead and go grab it and read it along with me if you'd like to. And then when we talk with Kate again, we'll actually have all read the book by then. And we'll discuss the different characters and their types and everything like that, who the murder actually is. I have no idea who it's going to be. Um, and we'll kind of go behind the scenes with that. So I thought that was a bit of a fun way to frame this two part series. And I hope you really enjoyed the book. I hope I enjoy the book. I think I will, but I haven't read it yet. So we will discover that together. No. Let's move on to a little bit of an introduction to Kate Hallock. Kate is a writer who loves taking non-fiction topics and turning them into engaging fiction. Her debut novel nine ways to die in any grand murder mystery takes the concepts of the Enneagram and displays them in a fun puzzle murder mystery. Kate lives in Peachtree city, Georgia, where she drives a golf cart everywhere. Usually with at least one of her three daughters in tow, sometimes her husband and occasionally their scruffy dog. She spends most of her free time inventing worlds and characters and writing about them. Luckily she can do a lot of it. In her head while she runs carpool shops, her groceries and endlessly sort socks. And today you'll hear a little bit more from Kate about what it was like to start writing as a mom as well. So you can find Kate hallock@katehallock.com. That's H a L L O C K. And you can also find her on Instagram at Kate Haluk writes. And her book again is called nine ways to die and any grim murder mystery. And you'll find the links to all of those things in the show notes. Now without further ado, here's Kate. Kate, welcome to the podcast.

Kate Hallock: 5:16

Thank you. I'm really looking forward to talking with you.

Steph Barron Hall: 5:19

Yeah, I'm excited to chat about this. So. Let's talk first a little bit about your Enneagram journey. I mean, I'm really curious about how you learned about the Enneagram, how you found your type, and then we'll get into how that kind of parlayed into this book.

Kate Hallock: 5:35

Um, yeah, I actually came about it kind of backwards. I really got interested in what my kids were, what numbers they were, um, they're getting older and I'm trying to figure out. You know, what's going on with them, what's their personality type? And so I was listening to some podcasts. Uh, I was listening to Birds on the Wire with, uh, Karen Stubbs, and she did a whole series on the temperaments and the four temperaments, and knowing what temperament your kid is. So I did like a deep dive into that. I got really into it and I was trying to talk to people about it, and everyone was like, no, we're talking about the Enneagram. And I was like, no, no. Let's talk about the temperaments. I learned all about these and I'm ready to talk about these and. No one wanted to talk about the temperaments. So I was like, finally my friend was like, just read the book and then you can talk with us about the Enneagram. And I was like, fine. So then I read it and then I was like, of course, obsessed with that and immediately knew as I was reading the book that I was a nine and, and the temperaments, I'm a green and nines and greens are like very similar. Um, so immediately I was like, this is me, like a hundred percent. So, um, Yeah, I was fairly certain right after reading the book, I, I knew that I was a nine.

Steph Barron Hall: 6:42

Yeah. So when you say the book, you're talking about the road back to you,

Kate Hallock: 6:46

That was the one I read first. Yeah. And since then, of course I've read more, but that was the one that was kind of circling through my group and everyone was passing around at the time.

Steph Barron Hall: 6:54

yeah. I think when that came out, I. It was just such a great one that people were like, Hey, you gotta read this, because it was really digestible and like kind of simple. So you immediately thought you were nine. There was never any,

Kate Hallock: 7:09

no doubt. No, I was sure. I mean, there are, there are other things that when I would read them, I would say, well, that I feel like that's sort of me, or that sort of me, like especially with the three. But then later of course, I learned that. In health, I go towards some of those three things or, um, you know, some of the six things I go toward in Unhealth. And so there are, you know, and everybody's got a little bit of every, bit, every piece in them. And so there are other things that you say, well, that, that really sounds like me too. But nine was just like someone had gone inside my brain and was, you know, in there telling me what I already knew. And I had not ever experienced that before. Where to have my thoughts, like on paper.

Steph Barron Hall: 7:50

Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating.

Kate Hallock: 7:53

Yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 7:54

it is. Then did, were you able to figure out your kids' types.

Kate Hallock: 7:58

no, no. I know they're, I know they're temperaments, but they're, they're, uh, no, I'm not sure yet. My oldest is 15 and she's either a nine or a six, so we're not sure if she's under stress in high school and that's causing her to feel like a six or if she's. Healthy and feeling like a nine. But as a kid I would say she was a nine, a hundred percent. So I think some of this, but she's got some like anxiety things that are coming up and you know, high school's stressful, so,

Steph Barron Hall: 8:28

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I curious then to hear a little bit more about your journey with writing. Like how long have you been writing, what has that been like for you? Um,

Kate Hallock: 8:37

Well, I never, you know, I went to Georgia Tech, so I did not study writing or English or anything like that. I studied business and, um, after I had kids one day I just sat down and wrote a poem and then I wrote a couple kids books and then I started writing a novel, which wasn't this one, but another one that kind of taught me about writing and bigger picture plot stuff. And, um, that was the first time I picked anything up was probably 10 years ago. So I did a lot of work on the back end. Of course, my kids were littler, so I didn't have, like, now they're in school, I write while they're in school. Um, but when they were home, you know, it was much more like an hour here, an hour there or whatever I could get. So, uh, it was 10 years of working up until this point, but, That wasn't like 40 hours a week. It never has been 40 hours a week. Um, but with this book, I really just, uh, decided that I wanted to kind of dive into the Enneagram and I just felt like part of my motivation was that. I was really interested in guessing what all the people around me were, which as you know, you're not supposed to do, but it's hard not to when you learn about it cuz you start thinking what are they or what's motivating them or whatever. And I thought it'd be really fun to have a book where you could actually guess and either know that you're right or you're wrong, or actually like, look into these people and really like, try to figure out what who they are and then have like, oh yeah, there is an answer and you can know if you're right or wrong. So, um, that's kind of what started me on the journey and I. Uh, I really kind of just write, and then when I get stuck, I research. So like, if I am writing something about, you know, somebody killing somebody and I need a way for that, like how would whoever, whatever number, would they do something confrontational or would they do something sneaky or, you know, like what would they do? And then what's a way to try to kill somebody? That's one of those things, like a sneaky way or a. In your face way or you know, whatever. So I had to, I would do a lot of research on that kind of stuff. Which by the way, now with the way ads are, I get some really weird ads in all my feeds cuz I like research all these like, you know, guns and poisons and it's like a little freaky. I'm like, I don't want any of this. I need like a, I don't know, it's a little weird.

Steph Barron Hall: 10:52

that's so funny. You're like, oh. I should have done that in incognito or something, or they're not

Kate Hallock: 10:57

I know I need to like, go to the library and like just do all my research there as like a, not signed into anything so that I don't get all this weird, weird stuff.

Steph Barron Hall: 11:07

Yeah. Yeah, I mean that is a good point cuz you do have to know, I think about that sometimes I read a lot of like thriller type or like psychological thriller type books and I think about that sometimes. Like you have to understand like how that would happen and kind of play it out.

Kate Hallock: 11:24

Yeah, it is. It's a, it's, you know, once you kind of figure out how, then you have to figure out like what the characters would do, and then you have to figure out how that would happen. So it's kind of like a, you know, little step at a time down the road and then research as needed. Some people write books based on the fact that they were so interested in something that they researched it. Deeply, and then they're like, I have to write a book about this. But I just started writing the book and then when I need to figure something out, I research. So,

Steph Barron Hall: 11:52

Yeah. I'm, I'm a little curious about your process as a nine as well, like, because one of the things that we know about nines is that it can be difficult to say like, I have a voice, I have this contribution. Which I think is really true of nines, especially cuz nines are like observing a lot of things a lot of the time. So there, there is like this really defined contribution, but I think nines can struggle to put themselves out there and say, okay, this is my perspective. This is how I'm going to put it out into the world, and I'm curious what that was like for you.

Kate Hallock: 12:25

Well, I think as a nine, you know, watching other people makes me a really good writer cause I'm aware of how other people act in situations and I'm aware of how things go. But writing it was just about me. You know, it was, it was still, was just about me sitting here writing it. And, uh, I didn't really need. To have my voice necessarily heard, but it was like, as I wrote it, then I felt like I wanted it to get out there in the world. But it still feels awkward for me to like get on Instagram and like talk about it or like push it, you know? Um, so that is always gonna be probably a struggle for me. Even when it was coming out, like the week that it came out, I called my mom and I was like, I just feel like I'm being too loud. Like I just feel too loud that this is like going out into the world and it just feels like, I'm like just being loud. And she was like, well, don't worry about it. It's fine. I, which I, you know, like, just be loud. Who cares? Everybody else is loud, you know? So, but it does, there is something about that in me that's like, I don't love it.

Steph Barron Hall: 13:28

Right, and you're like, I mean, if I could just not worry about it, I would do that.

Kate Hallock: 13:33

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Steph Barron Hall: 13:36

If you could give another nine some advice about that, like if they're starting a writing journey, what do you think they need to know?

Kate Hallock: 13:43

They need to know that. I think. We think that the thoughts we're having, I. Are universal. I think for a long time I thought that what I thought was obvious to everyone and they weren't saying it because it was obvious, and then I realized, oh no, they're just not having that thought. Like that's a unique thought to me and I didn't realize that as a nine. I always, I always felt like everybody, obviously anything I think everybody else is aware of, you know, so. I think you need to just realize like you have unique thoughts and your thoughts are interesting to people. And if you have, if you feel called to write something, like sit down and write it. You don't have to worry about making anybody read it or pushing it onto anybody, like until, that's like later. So just, just write it from to get it out there and then say like, you know, do I have something here? And ask your friends that you trust or people in your life and say, do I have something here? Is this a hobby? Or like, is this worth your time to read it or, Should I work on it more or, you know, whatever. But, but it's okay to just, to just get it done first. You know, nobody, nobody's gonna, and I think part of me too felt like people were gonna be like, who does she think she is? You know, like writing a book, you know? But who cares? Everybody can do what they wanna do, you know, just own it. Own it a little bit, and let your voice be a little bit louder than you're used to.

Steph Barron Hall: 15:02

Yeah. That's, yeah, definitely baby steps. But that's fantastic advice because I do see that and hear that a lot from nines and it takes a lot of like inner work, I think, to be able to be like, oh, I'm gonna do this. Um, and I think writing in general, there is that inherent struggle of like, this is my precious little thing and what are people gonna think about it?

Kate Hallock: 15:25

Yes, that's true. I sometimes think about it like you're like, it's like a kid. Like another kid and you kind of have this pressure to like have them be perfect and everyone think that they're perfect, but they're just kids. They're just human like everybody else. Like, you're not gonna raise perfect kids. Your book's not gonna be perfect either, but it's okay to send it out into the world and let the world like,

Steph Barron Hall: 15:47

Yeah.

Kate Hallock: 15:48

you know, do with it what it will.

Steph Barron Hall: 15:50

Yeah. Well, and I think with that idea, Something that helped me in my book writing process is just like, it's like a similar idea, but like thinking of it as its own entity. And so I am just like working and cultivating and creating it, but I'm not dictating everything about it. So I have editors and other people who are coming alongside and also trying to cultivate and shape it, um, like co-parenting my book with me, I guess if we're using the kid analogy, but like, I think that there's that aspect of like, it's not all up to me. Necessarily, you know, um, and allowing the book to become its own thing, and I'm just like kind of guiding it.

Kate Hallock: 16:29

Yeah, I agree with that. And I think too, the book kind of, and this sounds weird maybe, but the book kind of tells you where it wants to go. You know, like you can kind of, you're, you're there for it, but there's also some, the story has its own kind of journey and you were helping like to kind of get it out into the world.

Steph Barron Hall: 16:49

Yeah. Okay. So I I, with that, I really wanna back out a little bit because we are talking about your book Nine Ways to Die, which is right here by me. Um, an Enneagram Murder Mystery by Kate Hallick. And what you just said about the book, kind of like coming forth, I've always heard that about fiction especially. And I'm really curious what it was like for you to. Do all the different stages, like first, what was the book proposal process like? Did you say, I'm gonna write a book about Enneagram types of characters, or

Kate Hallock: 17:24

No one cared. I did not have a book proposal process. I was writing it. I just wrote it. Nobody was waiting. Nobody knew it was coming. Like there was none of that. And then I. On that. And I think with fiction more so than nonfiction, they don't wanna talk to you unless either you're like huge. Yeah. Or, um, you have the, a book that's written because they, they, with nonfiction, they're more like, okay, we know what this is and we know how what we're gonna sell. But like with fiction, it's more like we have to have the book finished. So I wrote it first. And then spent about a year trying to get somebody to listen to me, which is a nine is really hard cuz I'm like, sorry to bother you, but I wrote a book.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:04

Yeah.

Kate Hallock: 18:05

So it, it was, uh, that part was really the harder part. Writing it was fun but hard, but, um, trying to get somebody to pay attention to it was harder and more like personally devastating

Steph Barron Hall: 18:21

Yeah, it's excruciating.

Kate Hallock: 18:23

It is. It's really hard. Yeah. But you know, in the end it worked out, I guess, the way it was supposed to. So

Steph Barron Hall: 18:29

Yeah. Well, I'm curious. I. Yeah, I mean, I'm curious about the order of operations too, because I don't, so I know that you like to wrote back to you. I don't know if you've listened to Ian Krons podcast.

Kate Hallock: 18:41

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:42

Josh Radner. Is that his name? Ted Mosby from the

Kate Hallock: 18:46

Oh, he did? I didn't, I didn't hear that one. Yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 18:49

you might really like it. He

Kate Hallock: 18:50

I would. I like that show.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:51

yeah, he talks about using the Enneagram in building characters

Kate Hallock: 18:56

Oh, well that's perfect.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:59

Yeah. And so I'm curious for you, did the plot come first? Did the characters

Kate Hallock: 19:03

The characters were first. The characters were first because I knew I wanted to do an Enneagram, and then what I did was I said, okay, I got all nine. I didn't, I didn't know who they were, what they were doing. I just had the nine types and I thought if a one, what would, what would make a one want to kill someone? They want, you know, they're motivated to be right and live in a perfect world. So what, what would have to happen for a one to want to cross that line because it's a ba, especially for a one. And then I did that with two and three, and I kind of came up with this web of motivations and then they all had to intersect against the same person. And, um, and then it was, I. Some of the motivations you could tell needed a specific gender or needed a specific, you know? And then I had to fit them all into this family together and how they knew each other. And so, um, it was a web, but once I had that nailed down, then it was just fun. Like, okay, now we're just gonna let'em loose and see what happens. And it was just fun, you know, after that.

Steph Barron Hall: 20:07

So then you started writing and the plot like developed itself.

Kate Hallock: 20:11

The plot developed itself. It was, the timeline was the trickiest thing for me because they, they needed to all, like I needed with Enneagram. I needed to make sure their motivations were clear leading up to whatever was gonna happen. And so I needed some time, like a lot of times, like if you think about Law and Order, which I watch, I watch a lot of law and order. It starts with like a dead body, right? And then, They figure out what happened, but I felt like I needed the characters to kind of have some of that leading up to it. So the timeline for me was hard because I liked the idea of starting like law and order with like a dead body and then, but I ended up making it work. But, um, anyway, that part was really tricky. I, I did end up at one point printing out the whole thing and I didn't have it. It wasn't. Anywhere near finish, but it was maybe like a third through the journey. I printed out the whole thing and I cut it up into sections and then I laid it out on the floor and just like moved it around because it was just, it's too hard. It's all jammed in your brain. And I needed to just say, okay, this is here, but like how can we move it and make it work? And then once I had the timeline, it was, I mean, that was a big step. Definitely.

Steph Barron Hall: 21:19

Yeah, I, I really think there's something to that as well, because I agree like it's all in your brain, or it's all in a Word doc, or you know, a Google Docs and you're like scrolling and you're, you're like, I don't even remember where

Kate Hallock: 21:33

where it was or how to find it. I do use a program called Scrivener, um, which has a corkboard function. So like each chapter becomes, um, An index card on a corkboard, and then you can kind of move them around or you can look at what you have and how it works. Um, which is a, it's been a really great tool. Um, although I did do it in action, I did basically the same thing with, with actual paper, but I, that is a good tool for anybody who wants to write a novel. It's very helpful.

Steph Barron Hall: 22:04

Yeah. Well, I also think that writing a book is not efficient. Like, it's not like you sit down and you write it once and you're like, all right, that's good. You do it, you write it a million times. I mean, it's just, that's the way it goes.

Kate Hallock: 22:17

You write it till you're sick of it. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, my mom's always on me about, not on me, but she's always like, maybe this time you should have an outline so it'll be quicker and more efficient. But I'm, I'm like, it's just, it's not easy to do or everybody would do it. Like you can't just. Outline it and then be done. It's, everything changes and things happen and then you gotta rewrite this. And it's just the way, kind of the way it is. But it's fun.

Steph Barron Hall: 22:45

Yeah. I mean, it is fun. It's, it, it, it's the weirdest, like most like masochistic type of fun I guess you could imagine.

Kate Hallock: 22:54

it's like parenting because you love it, but you're also like, this is really hard and I'm gonna pull my hair out.

Steph Barron Hall: 23:01

Right. I, um, and I think one of the challenges of writing a book too is like you want it to be amazing, but you have no idea if anyone will ever read it.

Kate Hallock: 23:10

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 23:12

And I could imagine for some people that might be comforting.

Kate Hallock: 23:16

It might be comforting. That's true, because maybe nobody will ever read it, but you also wanna write it as if a bunch of people are gonna read it,

Steph Barron Hall: 23:23

Yeah,

Kate Hallock: 23:24

so to the best that you can, and then be okay with it. You know, like, Be okay. Like it was a story I wanted to tell and I wrote it and that, you know, I did my best. And if 10 people read it like that, maybe that's 10 people that I've impacted in some way.

Steph Barron Hall: 23:43

Yeah, I mean, I think that's, Helpful because if you can seriously impact 10 people, they've got a couple friends, they can recommend it to

Kate Hallock: 23:53

pass it along. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 23:55

So I probably listen to way too much true crime, but now I'm really curious about the types. I don't wanna do any spoilers, but if you're thinking about a nine, for example, maybe we can just talk about our types, like what would cause a nine to kill.

Kate Hallock: 24:12

Well, it is hard for some of the numbers. It's harder than others, but, um, I just felt like, like somebody in their life that is going to be conflict forever, you know?

Steph Barron Hall: 24:26

Mm-hmm.

Kate Hallock: 24:27

Like, you're just never gonna be able to be at peace with this person. Like, that's, that's for a nine. Like they need peace. And so, because I don't think a nine's gonna fly off the handle and go into a rage and kill someone, like they're going to say, this person is forever gonna be a, a conflict for me and I'm going to. Let change that. I need peace, you know? So a nine would do it. Think about that. I think.

Steph Barron Hall: 25:02

I could also see a nine having a sense of like, this person will never, ever acknowledge me.

Kate Hallock: 25:12

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 25:12

they always make me feel dismissed

Kate Hallock: 25:15

yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 25:16

or like I don't matter.

Kate Hallock: 25:18

yeah. I'm invisible to this person. Yeah. That's true. And if it was an important enough relationship that you're always invisible in Yeah, that's a good point.

Steph Barron Hall: 25:31

for my type, I think it would be like somebody who's gonna make you look bad or like expose your secrets or something. So,

Kate Hallock: 25:37

Yep. Yeah, I agree. Uh, or create failure or create the perception of failure.

Steph Barron Hall: 25:50

Yeah. I mean, the perception is sometimes worse, but

Kate Hallock: 25:54

The actual, yeah, exactly

Steph Barron Hall: 25:58

Are there any types that felt really difficult to shape the motivation

Kate Hallock: 26:03

the seven,

Steph Barron Hall: 26:04

Okay.

Kate Hallock: 26:05

cuz sevens are just all about fun, so they're not even gonna sit down long enough to think about being upset at somebody or unhappy with somebody.

Steph Barron Hall: 26:16

I don't know. Sevens are very crafty. I feel like more than fun. It's like mental stimulation,

Kate Hallock: 26:21

Okay. Yeah, that

Steph Barron Hall: 26:22

you know? So like their, their fixation is planning, right? If we think about the fixations of the types. Um, and so if they're like, okay, this is how I'm gonna do it. I'm going to, you know, do X, Y, and Z.

Kate Hallock: 26:36

And get, go into a deep dive. Yeah. Yep, for sure. I agree.

Steph Barron Hall: 26:41

Who was the easiest?

Kate Hallock: 26:43

The easiest mo to be motivated? Well, my problem. My problem. There was a, there was a certain, well, hmm, let's see. I don't wanna give anything away. I think it was hard to make them all equally motivated. I'll say that. I think there were certain ones who, as I'm writing it, wanted to just. Get it over with and do it be done. And you know, just, and I had to like tame them down a little and say, no, we're not, we're not there yet. We're not there yet.

Steph Barron Hall: 27:17

Yeah. I could imagine also five being really challenging,

Kate Hallock: 27:22

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 27:23

um, to like come up with that motivation.

Kate Hallock: 27:28

Yeah. That one was a little layered I think. And um, I just kind of pulled on the, like the nerdy side for that a lot. Kind of the research and the, yeah. Knowledge. But yeah, it's tr, I mean they're all tricky because the good and the bad of all of'em, makes it tricky. Because, and you don't wanna paint any number, and I, I felt like almost what I need to do is write nine so that each number can be guilty in one book. Because you don't want any number to feel bad at the end of the day. Like that they, that they did it or whatever.

Steph Barron Hall: 28:04

yeah, exactly. I think that that could be really challenging. So,

Kate Hallock: 28:08

yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 28:09

It's like you like painting their motivations well, kind of helps you see that each of them is equally bad.

Kate Hallock: 28:17

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 28:18

And I also think, you know, sometimes I've gotten pushback, like when I teach, sometimes I'll talk about like, oh, um, this type could be like this character from this movie or whatever. Sometimes it, it helps people though, I have to say. I think that's challenging because I. These days we don't sit around and like all watch the same show on the same night, you

Kate Hallock: 28:43

I was just listening to something about that, about the collective consciousness of, of, of society. Anyway, it was interesting.

Steph Barron Hall: 28:51

yeah. So like that's, that can be a challenge because I'm like, what show

Kate Hallock: 28:56

Has everybody

Steph Barron Hall: 28:57

well enough that everyone has seen?

Kate Hallock: 28:59

yeah, it's harder,

Steph Barron Hall: 29:01

It is, and especially when I'm talking with people who are like very busy business people, they're not sitting around watching like, you know, two hour long episodes of a show every night, you know? So, um, but I think the only way to make the character really punchy to where you can truly see what their Enneagram type is, is for them to be pretty unhealthy in their

Kate Hallock: 29:26

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 29:27

like in those average unhealthy levels and. Yeah, that's, that can be challenging because I think people might say, oh, you're painting them all just in a bad light.

Kate Hallock: 29:38

Yes. Well, and I even said in the author's note at the beginning that like they're, these are all people who are considering murder. Like they're obviously a little unhealthy. Like, let's not take it too personally because some of them are not nice people and it doesn't mean that everybody in that number is not a nice person or, you know, whatever. So, uh, There that was a little tricky, and especially a couple of them turned out to be really bad people. A, you know, a few of them, even though they considered murder, were still kind of like, oh, you know, they were still kind of likable at the end of the day, but a couple of them were really just not at all. And so then I felt a little bit bad for the, those numbers that I didn't

Steph Barron Hall: 30:17

Yeah.

Kate Hallock: 30:18

mean to. I'm gonna, if I write the sequel, I'm gonna make sure like they're nicer. Those numbers are a little bit nicer the next time around.

Steph Barron Hall: 30:26

Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I'm so curious, and I'm trying not to ask you all the questions because I am going to read it before we talk again. Um, I'm

Kate Hallock: 30:37

I'll answer all the things

Steph Barron Hall: 30:39

Yeah, I, I know I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have so many questions. Um, but what do you think was the biggest challenge you faced just overall in the writing process?

Kate Hallock: 30:51

Um, well for me as a nine, I would say doing it, I'd say, I would say sitting down and writing it and it's, um, a nine struggle maybe with motivation and especially when there's a big project, I can struggle with paralysis and, you know, I just would much rather. Do something easy and quick then like sit down and, and work on this thing that seems never ending. So, um, for me, the, that's probably the biggest challenge and, and, um, being kind of other centered too. It's like if my kids are home or if my husband's home, I'll just be like, well, what do you wanna do? Instead of being like, I'm going to sit down and write today, or whatever. Although I did, you know, I did get to that point where it was like, and that's what I had to do in order to write it, is really like I have a schedule and I stick to it. Um, and that's the way things get done because if you don't it, you'll never write it. So I would say for me it was kind of sticking to that schedule and kind of being like, if my husband was like, he had works weird hours, so he'll be home in the middle of the day and I'll just, he'll be like, you wanna go to lunch? I'm like, I'm a nine and I like to go to lunch. You know, so it's hard for me to be like, no, I'm gonna sit here and write in my cave. So things like that, although I did usually like to go to lunch with him, I'd like be like, I will do it, you know, once a week we can go to lunch and then I have to get some stuff done. But, um, it's that balance. I mean, and that's for everybody with everything I guess. But it's that balance of I'm gonna really commit to this, or I'm gonna really goof off. So, You gotta choose.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:28

yeah, yeah. You do have to choose. And it's challenging cuz it is one of those tasks. It's just very difficult.

Kate Hallock: 32:35

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:36

Um, and I read a lot about motivation and like, kind of honestly the myth of motivation, like, How if you wait for motivation, you'll never do it.

Kate Hallock: 32:46

Okay.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:47

I have a sticky note on my wall that says A professional writer is an amateur who didn't quit.

Kate Hallock: 32:52

Well, I love that. I'm gonna get a sticky note. Put that on my wall.

Steph Barron Hall: 32:55

Yeah. Um, there was this other quote I came across. Um, oh, have you read the War of Art?

Kate Hallock: 33:05

No, but I think that's on my list. It is on my list, yeah. Should I read it

Steph Barron Hall: 33:10

yeah, I mean, I think it's great. I don't agree with everything he says, like any person, right. But, um,

Kate Hallock: 33:17

I.

Steph Barron Hall: 33:19

he talks about. Another writer. I believe I'm, it's been a little while since I read it, but there's this thing that has always stuck with me, um, about like how we want the muse to show up, right? And like, we wanna feel the inspiration, we wanna feel the motivation. We wanna feel like, woo, I'm excited to write today. And most of the time that's not how that works. And so Steven Presfield talked about, don't wait for motivation, just sit down and do it. And this, this author told him the muse is always there for me to write. Fortunately, the muse shows up every day at nine o'clock sharp, basically saying I sit down at my desk and at nine o'clock sharp every day, and that's when the muse shows up.

Kate Hallock: 34:05

That's what, uh, Stephen King says in his book on writing, he says that if you train yourself to be creative at a certain time every day, then the muse will show up. But like you're saying like that, the creativity will be there because your brain is trained. At nine o'clock we're gonna be creative.

Steph Barron Hall: 34:24

When he talks about killing your darlings,

Kate Hallock: 34:26

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 34:28

how was that for you? How do you take that advice and, and what was it like for you to do that?

Kate Hallock: 34:34

It's such good advice, but it's every time it's hard And especially like cuz kill your darling is really, means, it doesn't necessarily mean kill your characters, although there's that too. But also sometimes means like kill off these little phrases that you really like that aren't really adding to the story, but you just like the way they sound. But they can almost be like a distraction from like the story. Um, I'm not a very flowery writer. Like I'm very plot driven and so sometimes I'll just get in a kick of like some saying something and I'll just know like that it doesn't fit the story and you have to just, but you really like it, but you still have to cut it out anyway. It's really hard to do. It is really hard to do. It's better to have an editor tell you that, that this needs to go, and then you can say, I thought it did, but I, I couldn't. I couldn't do it, you know? But,

Steph Barron Hall: 35:25

self-editing is incredibly difficult.

Kate Hallock: 35:27

It's very hard. It is very hard. Yeah. Cuz you're either too hard on yourself or too easy on yourself.

Steph Barron Hall: 35:37

Right. Yeah. And, and if you're too hard on yourself, you end up just being like, well, this is all just garbage

Kate Hallock: 35:44

throw in the trash.

Steph Barron Hall: 35:45

read. Right.

Kate Hallock: 35:45

Yeah, yeah. Or just cut everything. All the words. Yeah. You're just cutting sentence after sentences.

Steph Barron Hall: 35:51

Select all delete like that. Yeah. That's such a temptation,

Kate Hallock: 35:55

it is cuz you're like, this is terrible. I'm no good. But then if that's not true either, you know, like it's usually very good with a couple of it tweaks that someone else can come in and that's why editors are very, very helpful.

Steph Barron Hall: 36:08

Right, and and also I think that it's worth noting that sometimes the first draft is bad.

Kate Hallock: 36:13

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 36:15

But that doesn't mean you need to scrap it all. It means you like, develop and build upon it.

Kate Hallock: 36:19

Yeah. That's why it's a first draft. Because

Steph Barron Hall: 36:22

But it's so

Kate Hallock: 36:23

and build on it. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 36:26

I'm curious about, um, your Enneagram sources as well. So we know that you did a lot of Googling and now have a lot of interesting ads about how to murder somebody, but,

Kate Hallock: 36:36

Yes.

Steph Barron Hall: 36:38

um, yeah. What, what about the, um, Enneagram sources? What were your favorites?

Kate Hallock: 36:44

Well, I bought this book called The Illustrated Enneagram, and it actually came out. Towards the end of my journey with this book. It may have even been after, but what I really liked about it and what I like about it for research is that it's like, Yeah, kind of like infographics. So everything's just like, it'll be like the motivations of a one and it'll just have like little pictures. It's a beautiful book. It's all illustrated. So instead of having to like read paragraphs of like, to get to like what is a one want or why is a one, you could just like look at like, oh, these four things and it's just like, boom, I got it. So it was really, it's a really very helpful tool. Tool for a writer. But also just for people who are interested in the Enneagram, because you can just be like, this person is a four and you know, they're driving me crazy or whatever. You can just like look at it and figure out why, or be reminded what, what might be going on with them or whatever. So I really liked that one. And then, uh, what else did I read on Enneagrams? I have like three or four, but they're not coming to mind. I just. Bought one that I haven't read yet about like the emotions of the inte. I think it's like emotional intelligence of the Enneagram or something like

Steph Barron Hall: 37:58

the Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence by Scott Islander.

Kate Hallock: 38:01

That's the one, it actually came out the same day as my book.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:04

Oh, wow.

Kate Hallock: 38:04

And so I told him, I sent him a message and I said, we probably have the two best Enneagram books coming out tomorrow or something.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:11

I love it.

Kate Hallock: 38:12

Um, but. Yeah, so anyway, I haven't read it yet, but that's one. And then I read some of Beth McCord's books and they're very good too.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:22

Okay. Yeah, I'm not, I haven't read her books, but I have read the Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence. Um, and yeah, thought it was a fantastic one. I really like that that book kind of forces you to read all of the types.

Kate Hallock: 38:37

I like that too. I mean, I, I always do, but I don't like when other people don't

Steph Barron Hall: 38:41

Right, right.

Kate Hallock: 38:42

to read them all.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:43

Yeah. Um, great. Well, I, again, like I said, I have so many more questions, but we're gonna have a, a part two of this where we're gonna come back and do some spoilers, like talk about

Kate Hallock: 38:56

All

Steph Barron Hall: 38:57

the different types, um, how they acted, all those sorts of things. Um, so I'm excited for that, but I. Yeah. Before we close, I have a couple of questions that I always ask people.

Kate Hallock: 39:13

great.

Steph Barron Hall: 39:13

first one is, tell me about a book that has helped you refreshed you or shaped you in the last year.

Kate Hallock: 39:22

Um, okay, so I'm gonna do, can I do a fiction and a nonfiction?

Steph Barron Hall: 39:27

Yeah.

Kate Hallock: 39:28

So for nonfiction, I'm gonna say Love does by Bob Goff. My daughter actually read it and then brought it to me and told me to read it, and it just has a really good book about just loving people and not being so like, I don't know, I think the world is so focused on. Doing things and you know, who's the best and, and it's just like, can we just like chill out and like just love each other a little bit? I don't know. That sounds kind of hippy dippy. It's, but it's a good book. It's just very practical and fun. And then for fiction, I have had a hard time this year with fiction. I haven't read anything that's really knocked my socks off except for I'm in a classics book club and we read the count of Monte Cristo, which is a fantastic book. It's super long. But it's a fantastic book. Um, so that really, I, the thing I really think I got out of that one was just kind of the, like, once you break something you really can't fix it. And I think, I think we are always trying to just like, we just forget how fragile things are, relationships and life in general. And you really can't go back, you know? So, Um, and then just a lot of revenge stuff, which was just fun,

Steph Barron Hall: 40:49

Yeah, right up your alley this

Kate Hallock: 40:51

right up my alley. Exactly. It was, it's just a fun book.

Steph Barron Hall: 40:55

Yeah. I love that. Um, okay. What is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you? Um,

Kate Hallock: 41:00

There's so much good advice. But I think I wanted to share one that really has to do with writing and creativity that I got. So I did a masterclass, um, Are you familiar with Masterclass? You can like, yeah, I guess everybody is. So it wasn't like an in-person one. It was like where I paid for it on my television or whatever. Um, by Judy Bloom, and she's an author, obviously, and she talked about how every day she goes for a walk with no headphones, no music, no music, you know, podcast, nothing. And how she never sees anybody else that doesn't have headphones. Everybody's got headphones and it's just like the world, there's so much, we're just taking in stuff constantly. We get up, we check our phone, we watch tv. We are in the car, we're, you know, listening to music, and it's just constantly, we, and we have headphones everywhere. They even, you know, I used to swim laps and people started showing up swimming laps with waterproof headphones. Um, because that, at least you, you know, for a while you, you didn't, You couldn't listen to anything, so you're forced to kind of think. But

Steph Barron Hall: 42:02

Yeah.

Kate Hallock: 42:04

it's just, there's so much of that now and I think, uh, and she said, you know, you can't be creative if you're always listening to other people. And so you really need that time of just doing something where it's quiet and your brain can just think and process. So that's something I try to do every day is have some just absolute quiet time. Even if it's not a walk, like cleaning the house, I'm tempted to scroll or I. You know, listen to a podcast or whatever, but just maybe try to take a little time and be quiet. And when you do, you'll find that your creativity and your overall kind of peace, which Asen Hein is important, like goes up a lot. So that's been a really, really good advice for me. And to just be reminded that, that, that's important.

Steph Barron Hall: 42:46

Yeah, that is really good advice, and I think it can be really challenging to kind of unplug, especially when there is much out there that it's like, oh, I genuinely want to listen to this podcast or this book, or.

Kate Hallock: 43:00

Yes.

Steph Barron Hall: 43:01

Whatever. But yeah, I, I've, I have this book that I've been reading and it's taken me so long to read it because there are meditations within the

Kate Hallock: 43:12

Oh

Steph Barron Hall: 43:13

and so it's like this, it's on audible, but I'm like, do, do, do. I'm just like going about my day and then I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm supposed to be meditating now, you know? And so I pause it and like, wait until I have the space to meditate. And it makes me

Kate Hallock: 43:27

Which is like never.

Steph Barron Hall: 43:28

right, I mean, Yeah, like it, it definitely is a thing that I can make time for. But you know, do I always do that? Not necessarily. Um, and I think it's really useful for me to notice that I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm just like on autopilot in so many things. And if I do wanna think about meditation or even mindfulness of bringing myself back to what am I doing right now that requires some quiet.

Kate Hallock: 43:55

Yeah, it does. Quiet is good for all of us and it's so rare.

Steph Barron Hall: 44:00

It is.

Kate Hallock: 44:01

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 44:02

Yeah. So like we talked about, this is kind of gonna be a book club, right? So, um, where can people find you, I'm obviously gonna put the link to your book in the show notes, but where else can they find you online? Um, where else do you want them to look up?

Kate Hallock: 44:19

Well, the book is available on Amazon, but you can find me. I have a website, um, kate hallick.com and I also am on Instagram at Kate Hallick writes, um, and you can find me there and I try to do some fun Enneagram stuff and some fun. Book stuff. Um, but yeah, those are the two main places that I put any effort into currently.

Steph Barron Hall: 44:44

Cool. That sounds great. Yeah, we'll put all those links in the show notes and then we'll be back in a few weeks. So everyone go get your books cuz we're gonna come back

Kate Hallock: 44:52

it now.

Steph Barron Hall: 44:53

gonna talk about it. So you'll definitely wanna have Reddit

Kate Hallock: 44:57

Yes. Before next time, because we will have spoilers.

Steph Barron Hall: 45:01

Yeah. Gonna talk all about the characters and the Enneagram types and everything.

Kate Hallock: 45:06

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I, it's been hard to not talk to people about the whole thing because they haven't read it yet, or, you know,

Steph Barron Hall: 45:13

Right,

Kate Hallock: 45:14

hard cuz I'm, you know, always biting my tongue not to say something that will spoil something.

Steph Barron Hall: 45:20

exactly. I mean, I feel like I'm like, I'm having a hard time coming up with good questions cuz I'm thinking, oh, that might lead to a spoiler. That might lead

Kate Hallock: 45:28

I know, I know. It's hard. It's hard

Steph Barron Hall: 45:32

And I think the other thing about my weird brain is like the, the same, when people try to surprise me, I'm like picking up on the littlest things. I'm like, I'm, I was like, I'm afraid if I ask you too many questions, I'm

Kate Hallock: 45:46

you're gonna split.

Steph Barron Hall: 45:47

up little things and spoil myself.

Kate Hallock: 45:49

it for yourself. Yeah, I think we did good. I don't think I said anything that gave too much away.

Steph Barron Hall: 45:54

Great. Okay, well we will be back. And so everyone go run and get your book and then we're gonna come back and we're gonna talk with Kate about a spoiler version

Kate Hallock: 46:05

Spoiler version, be warned.

Steph Barron Hall: 46:07

Nine Ways to Die. Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify