Words of Wisdom from Enneagram Types 5, 6, & 7

Kristi: 1:30

What if yes. What if it doesn't work out? But what if it does work out? Like you can worst case scenario. So can I also be kind enough to myself to best case scenario? Like what if it's best case scenario? What does that look like? And then realizing that like, I have the power to make either of those happen. You know, life has things, lot of nothing. Fully in our control per se. But we can trust that just as likely as bad things are to come. So we're beautiful things. Um, and then to also look back and say, yeah, I felt so insecure then too. I felt so scared then too. And look what happened. like, I'm still here. I know what to do.

2:13

Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in real life. A podcast that will help you go beyond any grim theory into practical understanding so that we can all apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. And I'm your host Steph Baron hall. And this is our final installment of the words of wisdom series. And so today we're hearing from the head or mind types, which are types five, six, and seven. As I've kind of gone through the old episodes and Heidi is helps a lot with a series as well. Just, just scouring these old episodes, for which advice we want to share. I've just really loved rediscovering some incredible advice from the guests, as they've talked about their process of growth and navigating. How to apply their Enneagram knowledge and their daily lives. So each of the guests today, we'll share a little bit more about how they've learned to feel more confident and connected to themselves, how they navigate fear and anxiety in carving their own path and their sphere of influence based on their type and. I think you're going to hear some really interesting things that we don't always hear about each of the types. I think, especially. Types five and seven. Even our type six today talks a lot about kind of going against what her. More risk averse part of herself might, might want. So, um, all of the guests today are going to share some little nuggets of wisdom that are a little bit counterintuitive for how we normally talk about the types. So I'm really excited for you to hear from them. This first clip comes from season two, episode 16. Becoming your most confident self as an Enneagram five with Kelly Ray Thompson. And Kelly is a woman's leadership coach and speaker, and We discussed Kelly's growth journey of getting in touch with her confidence as a type five. And learning how to access the other two intelligence centers as a mental type. So she's talking about. How she can access the body and the heart to really have a more integrated sense of self. She has a really. Cool journey to hear about. And she also wrote a book about closing the confidence gap about how to show up more confidently at work, highly recommended. And if you haven't listened to this episode, be sure to check out. Kelly Ray Thompson's episode, as well as all the others from the following excerpts. Everything is going to be linked up for you in the show notes. Here's Kelly.

Kelli: 4:35

I remember getting my report back, reading it, and I had to go out for like an hour long walk and I was like, I felt like I had like, my whole identity was like, Oh my God, I thought it was a one. I'm a five and I am so a five. This stuff is so spot on. And honestly, that's when the real transformation started to happen.

Steph: 4:51

Mm-hmm.

Kelli: 4:52

only learning, I was a five and just learning how much of my life was driven by my need to conserve energy. Um, how many unconscious things I had done and limits I'd placed on myself and access to me other people, how many people maybe I even upset because I was trying to set up boundaries. Like it was just all so visible. Like it took me a long time to really like, digest all of those things. And as you can imagine, all the feelings came up, which I didn't know what to do with those. And so, yeah, it's been really, really transformational in discovering my type, my real type. Um, and every time I think I'm another type, like sometimes I'm like, Well, maybe I'm a three, which if I do take a free test, I score really high in three, But every time I go back I'm like, No, I'm a five. I'm a five. But it has been transformational because it has taught me and made me aware of how often I will get stuck in what I call. Learning, Learning, learning. Reading, reading, learning, learning. Where I have to ask myself, what have I output today? Like, what have I actually done? Because researching is not doing So that's, that's been tr, that's the only reason I could have wrote this book, is because I made a conscious and intentional choice. I'm gonna do something before I feel ready.

Steph: 6:05

So I love that you have really taken this and and run with it and really used it for your personal transformation, which I think is really the point of this. And I find that so often, especially if we talk about it like on social media or these different things, it's like, One, I think a lot of us get in stuck in input mode. We get stuck in like, let me just learn and let me not apply. But it sounds like you've really been able to bridge that gap of being able to say, Okay, let me actually think about this and apply it. And I could see that come across in the way that you talked about some of the things in your book, um, especially about, you know, moving through your career and maybe some of even the feedback that you got about like, Oh, you're too. Bold or you're, you're not emotional enough or, or those sorts of

Kelli: 6:55

Yes, too direct.

Steph: 6:57

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm curious if learning your engram type actually helped you to see some of those things a little bit differently.

Kelli: 7:05

It did. So I would say step one, like the Myers-Briggs was a good half step. Like understanding I was a good, I was an I N T J. I was like, Oh, I'm unemotional, I'm big picture. I'm a thinker and I like to get things done so I could tend to come across direct. So that wasn't a shock to me, but realizing how unemotional. Was a big thing for me in learning the engram. So, um, and I think it, not so much like it wasn't telling me anything I didn't already know as a five, like I knew I was unemotional. Um, but I'll tell you what was really helpful, and this is why I love the Engram and it's so expansive. It was helping me understand, but like, I don't have to stay there. I think when I, when I went through the Myers Briggs, I'm an I N T J and even initially when I learned as I'm a five, oh, I'm direct and I'm an unemotional, this is who. But the thing that I love about it the most is it tells me, Okay, well here's where you can grow. And the most work I've done is in my four wing. And I think when somebody even just saying, Hey, you can really dig into your wings to help you be a different and more expansive problem solver and a better communicator. And when I really thought about my coaching practice, I thought, you know what? Like. This is gonna be really important for me to really study and get comfortable about what it feels like to be a four. My sister is a four. Um, and so, you know, sometimes I will just even really just run things by her. She read the book before it came out, but even just talk about some of the messy things, I try to really access a lot of. For resources. I have the book Bittersweet by Susan Kane sitting in front of me, which if there's a four book that's a Ingram four or listening to podcasts like We Can Do Hard Things like by Glen and Doyle. I mean, she just, they talk a lot of messy feelings and just exposing myself to more four type of thinking, but really even just pausing and really getting in touch with my emotions, like stopping and pausing and asking myself like, Can I name the feelings I'm feeling right. I never would've done that had I not found the Enneagram and recognized how important it was for me to really use all these resources that I have, um, to just become more expansive and ultimately connect better with people. I'm not saying it's easy, it's, it's not, It's something I have to be really conscious and intentional about, but that's, that's been the most helpful.

Steph: 9:19

Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you mentioned we can do hard things because I think for me, you know when I am. not really paying attention. I'm not in a great space. I'm just on autopilot. I listen to the podcast, I'm like, okay, it is really not that serious. Like, you're gonna be fine. Like everything is going to be fine. Just like move on You know, like talking about some of the deep emotional stuff. And it's really useful for me as well to be like, okay, let's slow down and actually think about that and actually think about the emotional side of this situation. Um, because it can be really invalidating of my. Not to say nothing of other people's emotions, cuz it's definitely invalidating of other people's emotions, but it's invalidating of my own too, to just dismiss them and that holds us back and we don't even realize it.

Kelli: 10:05

Yeah, a hundred percent. You know, that's the big thing I've had to come to grips with is that like, you know, as a five, you know, there's a joke that they're just walking around and they're like a brain on a stick. And you know, one the things the Engram teaches you is there's actually three brains. You have three centers of intelligence. And, um, it's easier for me to access my body intelligence. Um, it is hard for me to slow down in. My heart intelligence or my values and my impact on other people and what I really think and how I really feel. But you're right, like learning that intelligence in myself is difficult and it's intentional and it's slow and I don't always like it, but it helps me make better decisions. I think it helps me treat people better. Honestly, I think it helped me write the book. I, I don't think anyone would wanna read a book written by someone that was really direct and really unemotional and didn't connect, and so I really had to like tap into. Feelings and emotions. And I think when you can be more expansive in that way, it just, I mean, yeah, it helps you connect with other people and I, it just, yeah, it gives you a whole other sense of intelligence that I never had before.

Steph: 11:07

Yeah. That's so beautiful. Um, what would you say when we think about your book, the way that you approached it made a lot of sense to me, but I am curious, why was it confident? Why is that the thing that you felt was so important? What helped you to zone in on that specific aspect of leadership and.

Kelli: 11:26

Honestly, I wrote the book that I needed to read. It's just that simple. I always feel like if there was something that I struggled with the most, it was confidence. And I mean, if we go way back to when I was little, you know, this is not gonna surprise anyone, but like, I was a very five-ish kid. Um, I made friends because I was smart. People wanted to be friends with me so they could be on my, you know, biology lab and be my, my partner at work. And I had friends for other reasons too. But I mean, that was just really an identity that, you know, kind of, you know, made me work in life. Right? Like, well, you know what, If I'm not likable, at least I can be. Like, I remember thinking that all the time, like, but at least I can be smart. And you know, when I went off to college I still really struggled socially. Like I definitely wasn't somebody who had a ton of friends, you know, any friends I did have, it was because it was affiliated with usually work. You know, I worked full-time in college, I went to college full-time cause that's again where I found a lot of my identity. And, um, just even struggled in my early twenties. I got married when I was really, really young. It, it really wasn't the best relationship. Um, and I had my daughter when I was very young. And, you know, honestly that relationship and I, I'm hopefully, you know, speaking to anybody who's been in an unhealthy relationship that can really wreck your confidence and, you know, and your, your self-esteem. And even though I was doing okay at work, I don't think I was compartmentalizing the two as good. Thought I was because you know what? When you go home every night and there's something eating at your confidence, you're not gonna show up at work the next day and be your most clear, confident, fulfilled, stepping into your power self. Right? As as much as I told myself the story that I could, Okay.

Steph: 13:10

right.

Kelli: 13:11

Yeah, and so I struggled with confidence. I struggled to speak up. I remember it was just even hard for me to socialize my ideas with other people because the, the number one thing that would always go through my mind, especially as an HR and learning and development person. Is what if people think this idea is stupid? What if I make this training program and everybody think it's stupid? So I really held a lot of things in because I sometimes equated criticism with like, well, people are gonna think that idea is stupid. That was always my inner talk track. And I don't know where it came from cuz it's not like I had a lot of stupid ideas. Right. But you know, at the time I didn't know I was a five. Now looking back, that makes so much sense. And so, you know, when I then was a leader, You know, I was just coaching so many other women on confidence, but I'm like, I'm not even that confident. And I don't think I really, truly understood it until, um, I got divorced and then I was in another relationship for about five years after that and we were gonna get married and I called off the wedding about three months before. Again, that relationship was equally as unhealthy, and it was after I called off that wedding and I spent some time really getting clear on who I. Really like identifying what are my values? Cause I think I just thought that everybody had the same values as me. It became really clear to me, like, Oh my God. Like I have, I really lack confidence because I've just been like, You know, doing what other people want me to do or what I thought would make me successful or following other people's advice and just conforming to who I thought I needed to be. And so it really was in about 2016 where I really had this awareness of how much of the life. And the misery I created for myself was simply because I lacked self-confidence. I lacked self-confidence to know what I stood for. I lacked self confidence to stand up and say, No, I'm not gonna tolerate that behavior. You know, I'm not gonna tolerate you talking to me that way. I lacked self-confidence, which kept me from advocating for myself at work and probably being more social and expanding my ideas. and so I mean that, that was my growth journey was really understanding what self-confidence meant and how I could be more confident so that I could live a more healthy life. Find a healthy partner, like raise my daughter to be confident. and you know, then when I went off on my own, I just, I think as a coach, acquired actually so many more tools that I use personally. And so the reason why I chose confidence, I think is just because it was just so foreign and hard for me, and I realized that the lack of confidence caused me so many problems personally and professionally that I simply. I just need to write the book that I need to read and present all the research and all the tools I've done to kind of, you know, really put myself back in a better place. I am remarried. My husband's amazing. Like it's, it's awesome, but it wasn't without a lot, a lot, a lot of inner work

Steph: 15:59

Absolutely. And TRCs Well, and I think what I also hear throughout that story is, Your head center of intelligence was so well developed. And even maybe the body center too, like we, we kind of, uh, or you mentioned that that's easier to, for you to tap into,

Kelli: 16:16

was, it wasn't, but yes, we can talk about Go ahead.

Steph: 16:19

Yeah. Um, but I think what I'm really hearing is like, Learning to turn on the heart center of intelligence. Learning to tap into your values and understand how things were impacting you emotionally. That was really the key of like bringing all three centers online and then being able to move forward. It was like you couldn't get by on the head center, which you were able to when you were in school and like early in your career, but then you needed to turn on all three centers.

Kelli: 16:46

Yeah, the body center was the first one to come online, and even when I work with fives now, that's the first one I like to bring online. And it's because I was in this coaching program and we were doing body work and it all, you'll laugh at this. Um, we had this, this session in class where they were gonna teach us. How to read our bodies and how our bodies said yes and no. And we were gonna do this body scan. And so me being a five, I'm like, That is a bunch of woohoo junk. I don't wanna any of that. I'm just gonna skip that class. And so, but then like my logical side got in and I was like, Well, you know, I paid for it, so I should probably go. Oh my gosh. Like they taught me how to scan my body. They taught me how certain sensations would come alive in my body when it was the wrong thing for me, and how that would be different when it was the right thing for me. And I remember when that, when my body came back online, like I like was teary for weeks because it was almost like, This source of information in me had been so repressed for so long that when it came back online, they were like, Oh my God, I'm so glad you're here. We have so much to tell you. And just like everything was just a body sensation. And you know, it was so empowering. And I think one of the reasons why I was so stuck for so long is because in these, you know, relation, very unhealthy relationships, my, my body was telling me, Like, Hey Kelly, slow down. This isn't right. But in my head, I would reason myself out of ever listening to my body. And so bringing my body center back online was totally transformational. And you know, had I not started there, I probably couldn't have gotten where I am today. But, but just validating for any fives or head types out there that I know that going into your body can feel really weird and really foreign. And it will also be really life changing.

18:32

Now let's move on. It's a type six. So this clip comes from a season two episode 11. Going out on the limb in entrepreneurship as an Enneagram six with Christy roles. Christie was trained as a mental health therapist and is now on any Graham coach. And we talk about how Kristi overcomes specific roadblocks as a type six. That show up as she navigates entrepreneurship, the importance of balancing all three intelligence centers and how she moves toward the virtue of courage. And I think Christie is a great example of a six. Who's really done a lot of inner work so that she can show up in her daily life. Like she decided, okay, I want to have this life of entrepreneurship. And there is no roadmap and there is really no team, especially when you're first starting out. So how can I build a company that I love? So I love my daily life. I love the day to day. I don't feel so anxious all the time about that sense of stability that I'm seeking. And she's done an incredible job of managing all of that and building something that is creating a really awesome impact in the world. So again, be sure to check out Christie's links in the show notes and here's Kristy.

Kristi: 19:40

I wound up listening to a podcast about kind of an overview of all the types on one of my commutes and, you know, like usual, because we all have different parts from different types in us. I was connecting with like, okay. Yeah, that sounds kind of like me. I can be like that sometimes that, um, and then when they got to the type six, I was like, oh my gosh, I was totally in the car by myself. But I, I remember. Kind of like a flashback. I can look back and see myself looking around the car just to be sure no one else was in there because I think I felt really, really naked and exposed and. immediately felt like this combination. On one hand, I felt so relieved and like, oh my gosh, there's words for what it's like to be me. I didn't realize this was unique. I thought everyone's brains worked like this. And then on the other hand, felt like an immediate sense of dread because it felt like a life sentence to my anxiety. and part of that was, um, there wasn't a ton else shared about like the comprehensive view of a type six outside of the anxiety piece. Um, and then part of it was like, oh my gosh, I've been running from this forever. And it seems like I'm never gonna be able to outrun it. So there was like a, a several weeks where I was like, Hate this tool not using it don't care. Um, and then, you know, just like, again, people in my life who had already known any agree gently coming in and saying, let's talk about the full picture of the type six. And let's talk about how you can learn to have a relationship with your anxiety versus running from it, your entire life, um, and kind of hating this part of yourself. So it led me to a place of realizing, okay, it's not that I. um, you know, not that the, any room revealed things about myself that I hated. It was more of me looking at myself in a mirror and having to come to terms with parts of myself that I was trying to. Suppress or subconsciously even shame away. So it was a process

Steph: 21:49

Yeah, well, and I think I hear in too, is also understanding instead like, this is something I need to run or escape from. It's like, this actually part of me.

Kristi: 22:01

mm-hmm

Steph: 22:02

looking the mirror in that sense,

Kristi: 22:04

Yeah. And, and also from a compassionate, gracious standpoint to think when I was young, I needed anxiety to survive growing up in my family system, in my environment, I needed to have this really like hyper alert part of myself that kept me safe. And so not shaming it, but understanding why it was there and what she had to teach me. And then how can she, and I start to have this relationship where I say, okay, I hear you. Thanks for letting me know that that's something to be concerned about. And also, how do I not let you. control me and I, I even, you know, the therapist I'm working with now, we talk about how, um, even learning to trust her and have this relationship of, um, realizing that she doesn't actually want to be anxious all the time. Like for me, she lives in my tummy like that. I just feel like that's where anxiety lives for me. And it's, there's been moments where I've realized I've checked in with her or listened to her. And then I feel like she just moves. it's like, okay, thanks for hearing me. Now. I can like go play or go back to sleep or, you know, something like that where I just never thought that that's how it could be. So it's been like a hard and beautiful process.

Steph: 23:24

yes, totally. really life changing and. and I'm curious, and I wanna kind of touch that you mentioned earlier, which is how your ness kind shows up the way that you that you run your business. And so curious about this, because I hear from a lot of people sixes, who want kind of into business and find themselves creating. Almost committee, right. Um, with just, you of six, you know, and, or they're trying to these structures and processes that will really help support they of sense security that they have left leaving corporate job. And I'm curious how you have navigated that and how your type shows up that you operate in your business.

Kristi: 24:18

Yeah, well, I'm kind of giggling a little because I'm like, how did I navigate it? Begrudgingly

Steph: 24:22

Ooh, Uhhuh.

Kristi: 24:24

um, because you know, there are, there was like a massive, massive learning curve for me when I first started my business, especially as a six, right? Like some of the things that came up, I noticed most, I don't have a team to bounce ideas off. My team was everything to me. And I don't think I thought about that because I had always had people I was working with. If I got stuck on a decision or I wasn't sure how to best respond, I would just pitch it out. We'd brainstorm together. And that's what I would do. And, um, I don't have that anymore. So that was a really difficult challenge that I was not prepared for. Um, another thing then in general is like making decision. So at what point do I just decide something, you know, there's this like second guessing tendency to obviously overthink until I'm blue in the face, you know, or, uh, just paralyzed from inaction. And, um, so being able to ask myself, there's been a few questions that have been most helpful. One of the most helpful is so simple. It's will this work like, does this just get the job? So for example, if I'm creating a PDF or I'm building a workshop or I'm, I can think and think and think, and because I have all these different, you know, like ideas in my head, I could convince myself to change anything, to, to like change the entire presentation within an hour of when I start the talk or something. And so, at what point do I just say my own self affection needs priority right now? And so I can be affectionate towards myself when I say, yep. That'll. so that's one simple thing that has, um, helped a lot with the second guessing the team part. I noticed myself. kind of like building a community online. It's one reason that you and I connected too, cuz I'm like Steph let's work together. You know, this would be fun. And um, you know, other friends as well. So I have regular people who I Voxer that some of them I've met in person and some I haven't, um, that we chat, you know, on Instagram sometimes and message back and forth. And actually just recently I was processing, I have a business coach who loves email. It's fine. Like I just don't love email. And I've been really thinking about why, because strategically in my head, the, you know, ROI on email is like significantly high among the digital industry. So like I know that. And yet I just don't enjoy it. And so I've been processing what don't I enjoy about it. And I think it's, there's not the engagement. there's not the feedback, which helps me kind process. And know this about myself. When I speak at events, I don't like usually doing virtual events. I like to see the people's faces because reading their faces gives me feedback in my head. If I'm on the right track. like, are they following, do I need to shift up how I'm saying things? Do they like this avenue? Should I go deeper into it? It's this constantly like looking outside of myself for that guidance, whether it's direct or indirect feedback that helps me know what I'm doing and if it's good and it's like classic dependent stance. So even saying it out loud, I'm like, oh, Can't it just is what it is at this point. Um, so, you know, even things like that. And realize that one reason I really like Instagram is because have that people connection. I'm I talk with people in my direct messages all the time, and it's so fun to me. It doesn't feel like work and that's so beautiful. And like, if I'm not on for a couple days, I'm like, ah, I miss my C. so even that is a way where I'm like, okay, strategically, maybe email marketing would produce more for my business. Right. And I have that head part of me that's like, do what's supposed strategic, but then I have this hard part of me. That's like, what feels like life? What feels good? And, um, that's where social media comes in for me. So even noticing in that way, allowing myself to maybe not do what the best thing is, um, statistically, but to allow my heart to kind of lead some of that too, is different and feels good.

Steph: 28:36

Yeah. Well, and I that's one of things that's really interesting about six is, is that are in head triad, but six is Not always, but lot of the time seem very forward. Looking for that connection community.

Kristi: 28:48

Yeah. Um, So, I mean, of course, sixes along with eights and fours are in the emotional reactivity triad. So there's like a lot of feelings. So this is one reason why, when I first kind of started reading about the six, I was like, ah, I don't know. Like I know that I have a lot of feelings. Like I feel intensely. And now, you know, a couple years down the road, I'm realizing. one sixes along with fours and eights have a lot of feelings and we externalize them a lot. Um, but then I'm also dominant in the sexual or one to one instinct. So I just do have more energy, passion, intensity than other sixes. And so, yeah, I think for my, for speaking, from my own experience and I'm actually, I'm really curious if other sixes would agree with this, but my head is always. And so while I want to be most strategic and I, I think I'm led by my head, my heart is definitely driving, but the difference is whenever I get hung up on decisions, I almost always go with my head. And I there's like this lack of trust with my heart, even though I feel a lot, it doesn't logically make the most sense or, you know, I use data over my feelings sometimes. So that even like when I. Using social media for me is a hard thing. Choosing my heart over my head has been hard and I doubt it all the time, but it feels healthy. Um, but yeah, that's the head and the heart is very interesting. I feel like for sixes. Like, because I could argue any point in my head, I could convince myself of literally anything. So I think that's why it's so important for sixes to get centered and have like some sort of grounding or meditation or prayer practice. That's like when I adjust him with myself, what comes up in my body, like what rises up and that's my truth. You know, being able to be intuitively driven by my gut and my heart, not just my over-functioning brain is a more whole, like three centered approach, like head, heart, and body to my own development. But it's, it's, a battle between my intuition and my head.

Steph: 31:02

yes. that a lot of sense to me. What do wanna tell. You know, even your yourself a few ago about this type of life. And I'm just thinking the people who sixes, who are like, I don't know what to do. Um,

Kristi: 31:22

Hmm.

Steph: 31:22

know?

Kristi: 31:24

You know, it's so much easier when I say it in words and when I have to live it out. But I feel like I would want a couple years ago me to know that I am worthy of being trusted. I. You know, part of being a type six, we are present moment focused. And so we forget about hopefulness in the future and like all the good things that can be. And we forget about the past and how many painful, difficult things we've overcome and worked through. And we're just so obsessively focused on the mountain before us and like, oh my gosh, how, how do I get past this? And so I wish I would tell her to like, look up and look. like, look what your future can be. What if yes. What if it doesn't work out? But what if it does work out? Like you can worst case scenario. So can I also be kind enough to myself to best case scenario? Like what if it's best case scenario? What does that look like? And then realizing that like, I have the power to make either of those happen. You know, life has things, lot of nothing. Fully in our control per se. But, um, I feel like the pandemic taught us that if anything, but we can trust that just as likely as bad things are to come. So we're beautiful things. Um, and then to also look back and say, yeah, I felt so insecure then too. I felt so scared then too. And look what happened. like, I'm still here. I know what to do. Um, when I need support and whether that's asking for help or getting on anxiety meds that I started again last year, after being off for years, you know, being able to be kind and patient with myself, um, calling up a friend or just saying I'm not working for five days because I don't know what's going on, but like my system is not regulated and no matter what I do, I cannot feel ground. so it doesn't exist yet. Like I'm a human first. Um, and I realize there's like inherent privilege in me just saying that to be able to not work for week, it was not like that when I first started my business, um, thankfully now I'm making study enough revenue to be able to like take a nap and not shame myself for it. Um, so there's definitely privilege in that too, that I'm realizing after I said it out loud, but, um, yeah. Being able to trust what has been and what could be. I think I would want her to know that

33:46

And finally we have type seven. This first clip comes from season two, episode four. Tapping into deep emotion as an Enneagram seven with Camille, Logan. Camille is a licensed clinical mental health clinician who co owns a private practice called the Casey collective. And Camille has a podcast called Enneagram for the culture. And you heard her co-host last episode when we talked to any gram three. Kim Reese. So we discuss Camille's profession as a therapist. Through the lens of a type seven and how it really brings a perspective of beauty and hope and creativity to the world. Camille. And I also touched on courageously moving toward the virtue of sobriety by highlighting the beauty of this type of work. And it's, it was just a delightful conversation to have with Camille, because she's really able to hold. You know, those really light and joyful. Parts of life, as well as the really sorrowful and difficult and heavy parts without glossing over them. And so I thought it was a fantastic episode. Make sure to check that out and also. If you're not certain what I mean, when I say the virtue of sobriety, I have a free download for you in the show notes as well. That's all about the passions and virtues of the Enneagram. It's something I talk about on the podcast a lot, but you might really like it. So be sure to check that out in the show notes too. So here's Camille.

Camille Logan: 35:08

I love that I'm a seven therapist. Like I think it is a beautiful thing because I, I don't know. I think maybe we all think this about our number, but sometimes I feel like the sevens get a little bit of a, get painted a certain way and it, they kind of miss some of it. Um, and, um, I like, I'm almost getting like, like emotional thinking about it. Like, I, I have a really close tie to like beauty and what is good in the world and, um, abundance, not in a way of like that gluttony place, but the, this place of like what could be and how wonderful it could be. Um, and

Steph Barron Hall: 35:45

yeah.

Camille Logan: 35:46

I have a really close relationship with hope and, um, and all of that. And so. And I think as a therapist, like I get to bring beauty into people's lives. I get to notice where there is redemption and where there is hope and where there is, um, strength and resilience. I mean, again, like for sevens we're so E we can, we can. Reframe and do a silver lining, like a blink of an eye. And in counseling school, like that's one of the first things we learn is how to reframe. And I'm like, oh, I got that. Like, you know, like, that's really like, I give it this simple. Um, and so, um, and so being able to do that is so special to me. Um, There was, this is a silly story, but, um, the movie in Canto, um, and so we were, you know, my friends and I were all watching it or whatever. And one of my friends asked if you could have any special power that the people in, in Canto have, which would you pick? And I said, me and the other seven said, um, to be able to add flowers. Um, and I think that that is such a seven thing to say that, like, I want to add flowers. I want to be able to add. Beauty in all of these areas. Um, and, and I think that sometimes I, maybe it's my own perception that people be like, oh, just add flowers. Like, you don't wanna be the one that heals. You don't wanna be the one that like sees the future. And I'm like, no, I wanna make things beautiful. Like, um, and, and that's a really great skill. And so I, I definitely feel like that as a therapist, like I wanna add flowers, I wanna. Um, connect with people and, and help people see that, like what they think is a huge mess or a huge place of despair is actually a place of beauty, um, or a place that, um, beauty can rise from it, um, where we can find laughter a lot of times my clients. We'll say, gosh, I didn't realize I was gonna laugh so much in therapy. Um, and not that like, we like when it's, because like, things sometimes are funny, like you know, and like, let's take step back and like giggle about this or, or laugh about this because whew. Like, you know, and I think that sometimes clients that aren't in therapy sometimes don't realize that like, yeah, there is also a levity to, to the work and that we're still human. Um, we can have fun. I, I bring a lot of fun into my work. Um, I don't just sit and talk. Um, we'll get up. We'll kind of play like we'll, um, I will have you, you know, show me with your body. I will have you draw it out for me. I will have you, you know, use items to kind of like show me something. And, um, so not just getting stuck cerebrally, but trying to get into our bodies and. and, and do a little bit something out of the box, um, in terms of therapy. And I think as a seven, I, I really lean into that playfulness, um, in therapy, life is hard, you know, let's it a little easier.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:32

like. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that creativity is something that I think we often miss when we are highlighting sevens. I think that there you're right there is that stereotype that sevens don't have any depth. Um, and it's like, no, no. Like you can be serious about your job and just wanna have fun while doing it.

Camille Logan: 38:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love that. Mm.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:55

I also think that just in my experience, like working with sevens, I think that the move from the passion of glut to the virtue of sobriety is one of the hardest

Camille Logan: 39:09

yes.

Steph Barron Hall: 39:10

Glu just works so well. And it is so like reinforcing of itself. Right.

Camille Logan: 39:16

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 39:17

then the, the, the virtuous sobriety feels, it feels like a trap almost.

Camille Logan: 39:23

Yeah, it does. Yes. Yes, it hard. And. Um, and I think I do. I think every number, whatever their path is, it's tough because we're taking away the thing that has worked. Um, and the thing that makes sense in quotation marks. And so for yeah, to say, well, okay, now I have to move to a place of sobriety is hard and it's, it does feel like a trap. And the work is that, um, there's beauty in that, um, there. There is you're gonna be okay. Right? Because again, the, the idea for idea first seven is like, I don't know if I'm gonna be okay. I don't know if these people can hold this. I don't know if I can depend on them. I don't know if I'm gonna get stuck here. I don't know what's gonna happen if I'm sad for a long time. And so with a place of sobriety, it's like, you will be okay. You are held, you are connected, you are supported. You can handle this. You don't need to pile on. trips and this and that, and you don't have to get distracted and you don't have to like flitter and flutter, like, you can sit with this emotion, you can sit with this quiet, um, and you will be okay. Um, so I think that it is very hard, but there is beauty in it and there is necessity in it. Um, cuz if you're just flittering and fluttering, if you are just gallivanting around, then you don't see the beauty that comes from the quiet.

40:54

This next clip is with another seven. It's from season two, episode 20 pain as a spiritual teacher, as an Enneagram seven with Samantha MCI and. Samantha is an Enneagram coach, trainer and educator. We discussed the cerebral perspective of a self preservation seven. And how Samantha accesses her healing journey through sewing down and working through. Really the fixation of planning and the passion of gluttony. You're going to hear both a little bit in this clip, and you'll also find that. Samantha is really laying out what the work is for the self-preservation seven and how to kind of go about it differently. It doesn't always look like having chronic pain. But there are some ways that. The typical type seven approach is more, is more. And Samantha had to kind of recalibrate to, to notice. How that was actually not helping her situation and do something else instead. So I hope you enjoy this clip and here's Smitha.

Samantha Mackey: 41:55

So I was first introduced to the engram. Maybe, I don't know, five or more years ago now, I was working for an organization of air traffic controllers in a change management contract. And one of the, the, the project managers said, This is an organization of sixes and here is some information about that. And by knowing that, that I really helped the project, and I'm like, Well, I know nothing about this system. I dunno anything about sixes, let alone the fact that there's so many multiple types of sixes and. I sort of set it aside. I mean, I took a test, I tested as a five. It didn't resonate with me, and I was like, Well, I don't really know how to use this information. And honestly, if I'd been able to use it, that contract may have gone a lot better because they were through and through. And if I had known that, What I know now would've been so much more powerful back then, but I didn't. And so then a few years later, I had the opportunity to take an IQ nine test and the day before I was due to get my results, cuz it was happening in person, she was gonna hand me the report over the table with coffee. I was like, I'm not going to believe the report unless I've already decided what my type is. So I feel like that's a very powerful clue there because I was trying to equalize the power. I didn't want this report to have power over me. It couldn't tell me who I was. And so I opened up Beatrice's leadership book and I. Quickly skimmed through all the chapters and I'm like, Oh, none of these are me. And I'm like, Well, how about you slow down? What if you read more than the first page? What if you read the first few pages? What insights might that share that you've already overlooked? And so through this process of elimination, by taking some time, I was like, It's clear that you're a seven. You know, if it wasn't clear already, it's clear that you're a seven and. This is where I was at. So I put the book down, went, got my test results the next day. Yes, I was a seven. And what really resonated with me when I read that report was that motivation of a seven to move away from pain and discomfort. And at that moment, I'd been working on my, my healing journey for, oh, like maybe 10 years. And everything I'd done, everything I'd spent my money on in that time would been to release pain, to release, particularly chronic physical pain, um, if not emotional pain, although I was less attuned to that at the. But it also said I was a sexual seven, which I just took for granted. I didn't fully understand. And I sort of moved on from that and just worked with that sort of seven piece. And so then a few years later, um, I even just last year actually it was suggested, um, in one of the retreats that we attended that I might not actually be a sexual seven. I might be a self-preservation seven. And so I went and watched a bunch of videos with interviews of each of the seven subtypes. I got out the complete engram and analyzed the pages and all the subtypes, and by analyze very head type approach, I underlined every statement that sounded like me. From all three sections, and then I tallied them up in a table and it was very clear that the self-preservation had far more underlines, um, than the other two. Social had very few sexual, had a little bit more, but that's, I was like, Okay, so this. This is it. I can't deny that I'm a self-preservation seven, but of course I was slightly slash more than slightly heartbroken to not be a sexual seven because they're so much fun and they get to, you know, wear these rose colored glasses and life looks so wonderful. And I was really disappointed to not be that magical creature, um, and to face my realities a self-preservation seven. So once I got through that disappointment, I've been really able to use it as a tool for growth. Um, but yes, self-preservation. Seven social re. Okay. Yeah, that, that makes sense. And I think it's so interesting how subtypes can be so clarifying in that sense. It, it really is hard for me to imagine a sexual seven mistyping as a five, but the self-preservation seven, to me it's like, oh, that, that makes sense why that could happen. And it's also so funny to. How analytical you were when you went about that, because I think that a lot of the time, that's the part of the seven that gets missed, and I actually think that it leads to some mistyping as well. where people think, Oh, this person's not a seven because they're way too organized, they're way too planned out. And I'm like, No, no, no. Like I know multiple seven two are that way. I'm like, I have never met somebody who's better with a budget. Like, and they just have specific reasons for that. Um, and I'm curious if that's been a factor in the way that you go about like, understanding yourself and understanding Engram material because you have that very um, Very curious, like the, the side of you that people would probably label as five-ish, but like very analytical, very like thorough processing. Um, maybe just a little quicker than we would expect from a five, but still very thorough. Yeah. Um, I am very analytical, although it's not, It's funny. What I analyze and what I don't. Um, so when it came to studying coaching, I almost leapt into that without thinking it through at all. But then there are some decisions where I will analyze every single option and then not even move forward with one. So I remember once when I was a teenager, I wanted to buy my mom a toaster or a sandwich maker. This is pre-internet, so I was at the mall. I went to every single shop that would sell a toast. Dose maker. I looked at all the options. I analyzed all the features and benefits. I refused to make a decision until I'd seen absolutely every possible option, which of course, then I, I think I just bought one at random after that cause I was so exhausted from this, you know, process. So. It is really interesting, and I think a lot of my growth work has been a very thought based process where it sees a thought that is incongruent, that doesn't make sense, and I'm like, Oh, let's look at that thought with curiosity and observe it and just see what's going on there. Because when I, I think about that thought, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't fit in, and so yeah, I often don't feel like I look like a seven. I'm not someone who, what I would call that hedonistic party animal. That's how I sort of think the, the seven is really stereotyped. And one of the things I do wish I'd done more of in my life is party. I wish I'd partied more, Wish I'd traveled more. I wish I'd done more of that, but I'm the kind of seven who loves to get lost in a book, who could re spend all month reading fantasy novels, who, um, loves to go to the theater and eat at cafes and try new foods and sometimes eats way too much chocolate and dessert, but it to. That doesn't necessarily, it's a form of glu, but it's not the glu that we necessarily think of when we think of the engram as the enthusiast or the adventure or the hedonistic person. You know, I think of them as dancing on tabletops at three o'clock in the morning, um, and going to, you know, week long RAs, and I'm like, I wish I'd done that. But, you know, I definitely didn't do enough of that in my, in my younger years.

Steph Barron Hall: 49:04

That's so funny. Never too late.

Samantha Mackey: 49:07

I'm too tired now. tired. So

Steph Barron Hall: 49:11

I'm curious how the Engram has then impacted your own healing, because it sounds like it's just been. Almost a way of unlocking some things that you weren't able to recall or, or understand about yourself before. And then also kind of inspiring you to help others on that same journey.

Samantha Mackey: 49:30

Mm, So I really only learned about my self-preservation seven type last year. And so one of the things I've seen. Or seen through that lens is some of the shifts I've made in the previous 10 to 15 years. You know, some big. Things that didn't make sense that I've been able to see and challenge, I can now see through that lens. So one of the things, self-preservation sevens are described as as creating this good mafia or this partisan group, which I never really understood the concept of until I was able to retrospectively look at my life and so on my healing journey. I would have what I would call my support crew. And this support crew existed usually of about five people at any one time. And we're a range of different health or healing practitioners. So it might have included a physiotherapist, a chiropractor, an acupuncturist, a naturopath, a therapist, you know, the list goes on. And so whenever I experienced any pain, I'd be like, Right, who is the person in my support crew best suited to remove this pain? And I would book an appointment and off I would go. And if they didn't help, I'd just move down the list and even. the acupuncturist always last on the list, but it could always solve the problem. And after a while I realized that the next stage was to be able to sit with the pain for myself and just take a minute to see, what was happening within me and that pain as opposed to dashing off to my support, grow to release it for me. And I didn't know the engram at the time, and I didn't know that that would be part of a self-preservation Stephen's journey to just accept and be with the pain themselves. And that's not something I could have done at the start of the journey. There was years of meditation and slowing down that ability to be with myself, my inner world before that shift was possible. And so I don't know if that's somewhere, if I'd even recommend a self-preservation seven, start with that sort of shift. But seeing the role that support crew or my mafia played in my, in that process and then that step to moving away for it, I can see very much the self preservation lens, Self preservation seven lens that went across the top of that. and I see all, I can see it so layered now. You know, there was a time I was like, Oh, you are using your charm and your ability to connect with people. But it's not, it's very superficial and it can be manipulative. So let's just stop doing that and see what happens. And last year I notice. That opportunism and looking for opportunities, and I'm like, What could be wrong with looking for opportunities? I mean, that is like how you get by in life. What I realized last year when I could watch it, observe that reaction in as it happened was it was trying to mask. Something, mask, boredom, mask a fear of boredom. And I was like, Oh, well if I can get paid to do this uncomfortable thing, then that makes it okay. And so being able to see that energy to, to pursue an opportunity as in real life as it happened, I could pause and go, Oh, well maybe that's something you actually don't need to do. Maybe that's something you don't want to do, and maybe you just need to give yourself permission to not do it, rather than chase that opportunity. But at the same. that doesn't make an opportunity a bad thing to pursue, but you just need to evaluate what's the motivation behind it and whether it's gonna help or hinder you, whether it's something you want or not want.

52:42

And finally we have one more clip, which is from season three, episode five, the healing power of the Enneagram and relationships as an Enneagram seven with Jackie Brewster. Jackie is a certified Enneagram coach, author, and speaker jackie shares what it was like for her to get in touch with the head types, core emotion of fear and how she started to notice anxiety playing out in her life. And now she's found this clarity and peace on the other side of the inner work transformation through the virtue of sobriety Jackie does a lot of somatic work. As well as work with couples. And so you can kind of hear that woven throughout this clip as well, but I just really loved her perspective. And again, this episode was fantastic. So highly recommend scrolling back a bit in your feed and taking a listen. Here's Jackie.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:33

Do you think that you are always able to see the anxiety as a seven? Mm-hmm.

Jackie Brewster: 53:38

No, I didn't see it. I didn't see it at all. My whole family struggles with mental health stuff like anxiety and depression and, and, um, OC D and all kinds of things. And I was like, I'm unscathed, it's not me. And then I got older and I'm like, I have been scared my entire life. Um, that was, and so, you know, that was this year me doing some work, probably work with clients and you just start to reflect on different things you're doing stuff. And, um, that was a realization this year when I looked back. I'm like, I have been scared my entire life. So anxiety has been, A root cause of busyness, scattered thinking, um, impulsivity, irritability, nitpicky. A lot of that has to do with the, the root of anxiety that I didn't know was

Steph Barron Hall: 54:33

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's interesting how those core feelings for each of the triads can be like such a big blind spot because. It's just like, we're like, I'm gonna do everything I possibly can to not experience

Jackie Brewster: 54:48

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 54:50

What was it like for you to finally see that?

Jackie Brewster: 54:53

Um, I feel like this year has been a journey, um, around letting myself feel, even though I've done a lot of work, you guys. Um, but if we're being honest, right? Cause I wanna be honest and paint a really true picture of what it feels like to do the work. Um, it's been hard. That's what it's been. It's been like, oh my gosh, this makes a lot of sense to a lot of the ways that I've coped through my life. Um, and I don't wanna do that anymore. So if I don't wanna do that anymore, then I have to make choices to let things go or to face them, which is the scariest thing for a seven, is actually to go into those fears and face them. Um, and I've, I have. I felt a lot of prompting around that part of my story this past year around, um, they're probably not as scary as I'm afraid that they are. And I think I just did a lot of reframing. I, you know, when I look back at my story, I'm like, I, I, I don't know how I survived a lot of things. I survived. Um, and you know, I just think like, wow, I don't. Man, she was really tough.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:09

Yeah. She had to be.

Jackie Brewster: 56:11

yeah, when I look back at, at my little girl self in those teenage years and then those, those, those marriage, early marriage years, like, um, I feel a lot of compassion. Um, sometimes I wanna cry

Steph Barron Hall: 56:28

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Brewster: 56:29

I just think like, you had no idea how scared you were and you were just hoping somebody would make you feel safe.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:37

Yeah. Yeah. And so just launching into, you know, those worn in personality patterns,

Jackie Brewster: 56:45

Mm-hmm.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:45

it's like, do, do, do. Here I go. I don't have any of that other stuff, but like you absolutely needed that. I mean, I think that's how we all are, right? Like where we have these worn in personality patterns because we've needed them, they're survival mechanisms. And then you get to a point where you're like, this isn't working.

Jackie Brewster: 57:04

right?

Steph Barron Hall: 57:05

And I think too, one thing I encounter a lot, and actually a lot with sevens in particular, is, the pain that you start to experience from not, dealing with your stuff, has to outweigh like the benefit you're getting from ignoring it before you'll actually start doing the work. I've experienced a lot of sevens who are like, why would I wanna see things differently though? Why would I want to not just like look for the bright side all the time? Like, why would I want to be different or why would I want to be grounded? You know? And I'm curious if you can. Offer like a little bit of a glimpse of like a picture of like what is the transformation that's available to people when they go through this process?

Jackie Brewster: 57:47

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, and I do think, you know, within Enneagram seven in particular, although there's, there's quite a few numbers that avoid feelings, um, that, that wanna avoid it, and like, I'm not gonna look at it. I don't wanna see it. I don't have, I don't wanna deal with it. Uh, but what is probably at play, what, cuz everyone I, how I talk about it is that there's a cost to your denial. There's a cost to it. The cost is probably emotional connection and a healthy relationship. That is probably the cost. So, um, And I think that we can have relationships and they can feel good and all those things, but if we're looking at that deep emotional connection that is available with transformation work, um, it only happens when you are willing to, to look at the good, the bad, and the ugly. I had to go into hard places at one point in therapy, he's like, we're doing it. And I'm like, we're not, I don't wanna do it. I don't wanna do any of this. I don't even, I don't wanna feel any of these feelings. I just was so afraid. I was afraid. I didn't wanna look back on my childhood. I didn't wanna look into the situations within our marriage. I just didn't. I was just afraid. I'm like, if I ignore it, if I just pretend it doesn't exist, maybe it will go away, but, We all know that that is not true. Things just don't go away, you know? Um, emotions get stored in deep tissue. We carry them around with us and, you know, they manifest in different ways in within our body. So the transformation that happens on the other end of it, it is a rich, uh, beautiful, peaceful. Me as an Enneagram seven saying this to you, peaceful way of being. I don't feel like anxiety rules my life at all. Um, every now and then, if I have something big, big deadline or something like that, I can feel it. And then I like to shop, so that's how I medicate that. Um, I like to buy jeans, so, but on the most part, like I just feel, I feel seen. I feel. Known. I feel understood, I feel accepted, I feel celebrated, and I had to do that for myself first before I could. I could allow somebody else into that space and see me and know me and support me and celebrate me.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:00

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I wonder if you have like one little tip that you can share for people who are just starting out, like think of, you know, a tip that you could give yourself and 21 year old Jackie, like, what does she need to know?

Jackie Brewster: 1:00:13

so much. She needed to know so much y'all.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:15

Pump the brakes,

Jackie Brewster: 1:00:17

right, she needed therapy before she got married. That's what she needed. So, um, I, I mean, 21 year old Jackie, I would say, um, Take up this space. It's okay for you to take up space. It's okay. It's okay for you to take up space, move towards people that celebrate you, not merely tolerate you. Um, you're worth celebrating. There's something beautiful inside of you. Move towards people that are gonna help pull that out instead of, um, shut it down and make you small. Move towards people. But on a really practical thing, what I would love, um, To say is that when we're talking about healthy relationships and emotional connection, um, there's three key components to this and it's accessibility, responsiveness, and engagement. So in relationship, when you reach for your person, could be friendship, it could be romantic relationship. When you reach, are they there? Are they accessible? Are they, are they, you know, are they there for you and are you there for them? And then the responsiveness, if, if you reach and they do respond to you, what does that responsiveness look like? Are they attuning to you or do they, they, um, require you to attune to them? want them to attune to you. We want it to be reciprocal back and forth both ways here. But with that, do they see you? Do you matter? Eye contact, body language, all those beautiful parts around attunement and connection, and then engage. Um, are they willing to engage in the relationship with you? Is it reciprocal? Where you both give and take. It's this beautiful dance of give and take inside of relationship. Nobody gets to win. You guys. It is this dance that you learn to do and it's friendship. In romantic relationships, secure connections, but accessibility, responsiveness, and engagement, I think are essential keys to healthy human emotional connection that make all the difference in your life.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:02:11

thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify