Words of Wisdom from Enneagram Types 2, 3, & 4

Steph Barron Hall: 1:30

Sometimes I just wanna go back and be like, Hey, you know what, you can try it. People can see you fail and you're gonna be okay. But I, I think. American idol for me really did a number on me cuz I saw so many people go up there and think they were amazing be awful, like not be able to carry a tune. and I for me made me be like, oh my gosh, that is, I could not imagine anything more embarrassing. I need to make sure I never do that.

Kim Reese: 1:57

I mean, it is inspiring, you know, they can get up there. If they Seth, if they can get up some of those, if they can get up there in front of the whole world and sing, like we can, there are things that we, we can risk, you know, looking like we don't have it all together for,

2:19

Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram IRL, a podcast that will help you go beyond any grim theory into practical understanding so that we can all apply the Enneagram in our daily lives. I'm your host Steph Barron hall. And today we are back with more words of wisdom from the different Enneagram types. Now we've been taking a little bit of a break from recording podcast episodes. And so I'm kind of going back into the catalog and pulling out different moments from different episodes from each of the types. And I really love episodes like this because you get to. Here a little moments about the quintessential aspects of the type. I think that. It's kind of a unique way to look at the types, almost like a panel, but they're not recorded together. And on today's episode, we have two threes and fours. So the heart types. And we're talking a lot about, you know, setting boundaries and emotions and thinking way too much about what other people think of you and how we're all kind of moving toward growth with that. So you'll hear some perspective for me as well throughout the interviews, but I have really been enjoying these episodes and I hope that you enjoy them too. So. Next week, we'll be back with the head types, five, six, and seven. But to start off today, we are talking with Dr. Shelley provosts. So in this clip pulled from season two, episode two, called redefining health as an Enneagram two. I'm speaking with Shelley who is a psychologist consultant, any Grimm teacher and podcast host. And in this clip, we're discussing her work, determining issues of social or self-preservation to subtype. And here, Shelly also shares more about observing herself as a social too, and kind of how she came to that conclusion. And the type two passion of pride. As with all of the clips today. Each of these episodes is fantastic and everything will be. Linked in the show notes. If you want to check out the entire episode. Here Shelly.

Shelley Prevost: 4:23

that's a little Social Two also

Steph Barron Hall: 4:25

Mm-hmm

Shelley Prevost: 4:26

is like, we like to saddle up to people with, of influence. take our cues from them a little bit, but you know, work like a dog to get their approval and to get their, to get to be seen by them. And, I had someone recently ask me what keeps me up at night and I was like, What a

Steph Barron Hall: 4:50

question. Yeah, isn't

Shelley Prevost: 4:51

it. And I was like, you know what it is- it's definitely my children and their wellbeing always. But there is this- What is it? It's like this- and it shows up in dreams. It's an unconscious kind of river that I float around of like this always thinking about how"X" sees me. And like I did a speech yesterday. And it, I was up in, you know, I'm up all like for the previous three nights, thinking about this talk and how this is gonna go and are they gonna think I'm good? And, and I think we all do that. We all, especially speaking of course, but I think there's something, for me important in this pattern that I'm starting to see. It's really- it's an overconsumed, overly consumed, which creates anxiety for me, is how I'm gonna fit in with the people that I want to impress. And so that's that thread that's kind of always there. And when I don't recognize it, it's the stuff that keeps me up and I'll ask my husband, you know, or other people, if they struggle with that. And they're like,"No, like, I don't about like, who am I gonna run into on the street?" You know? Or like any random thing where I'm- I do kind of process those things. Like, how do I need to- if I run into this person, you know, do I- what am I gonna talk about? Am I ready to engage in a way that, that they want?

Steph Barron Hall: 6:42

Mmm.

Shelley Prevost: 6:42

And it's usually people in power, people that I wanna impress people that I- it's all that strategic helping that we Twos do. I, anyway, as the Two that I am have this antenna. Even right now, I've got an email I'm waiting to send that I just got this morning to somebody who wants me to come by and check on this startup team. And I'm like,"oh God, like I have time- when do I-", you know, there's a lot of like posturing and figuring out how to step into this conversation.

Steph Barron Hall: 7:12

sure.

Shelley Prevost: 7:15

Knowing that it's important-

Steph Barron Hall: 7:18

right.

Shelley Prevost: 7:20

how I show up. And is it, I mean, I think that's part of my growth. Like, is it, and I'm learning that humility is, for me, is reality testing and not working so hard to manage how people see me and how I can show up. I can-

Steph Barron Hall: 7:40

yeah.

Shelley Prevost: 7:41

say what I need to say, be who I am and that's good. And that's okay. It doesn't have to be overworked and over-analyzed and over-prepped for how I'm gonna be with this person. Does that make sense?

Steph Barron Hall: 8:00

Yeah. So like what's the alternative then? The alternative is thinking through everything you're gonna say, thinking about how you're managing all of that? okay. That's usually,

Shelley Prevost: 8:09

and when I'm not doing good inner work, that's what I do. You know, I just kind of, I, well, I'll say a couple things like it is- there is some that's pride. Is

Steph Barron Hall: 8:25

sure. Mm

Shelley Prevost: 8:27

the,"You are so important to this person that you need to really think about how you're gonna have this conversation and how you wanna be, who you wanna be, how you wanna be seen, because your words really matter." That's pride. So humility is-

Steph Barron Hall: 8:49

"You can take over their whole day with how you show up and how you talk to them."

Shelley Prevost: 8:52

You could take over. Yeah. You could build this- like be your, become your BFF. And that's the indispensability that a lot- that I struggle with, being the person for them, that's, you know, usually around emotional labor is the, is what I'm the person for. But humility for me is, recognizing the tendency to wanna be- and it's the whole strategy of being liked and loved, like seeing that, looking at it, squarely in the eyes,"Yes, I see you, pride. Blowing kisses. I see you- there you are." And dropping it. Like dropping the act and just coming from my heart without kind of pre-recording, whether it's conscious or unconscious, which it's both, what I- who I need to be and how I need to- what I need to do for these, for this person. And it's also tricky. So I'm starting to do more work around flattery, which is our fixation. And it's tricky, man. Cuz sometimes I'm like,"am I being flattering or am I really coming from, with gratitude in my heart for-" I can kind of- sometimes I can glimpse the difference, but it's a trickier one for me. It's just something that I'm just now starting to do some work around.

10:26

This next clip is from season two, episode 15, breakups healing and grief as an Enneagram two. With Gina Gomez. Gina is an Enneagram teacher, author, and coach. And she mainly focuses on working with people who are recovering from breakups. We're talking about why it's important to process Grief when exiting a relationship, how Gina supports her clients back to feeling happy and whole post breakup and Gina's own work around supportive boundaries as a self-preservation two.

Gina: 10:55

I think there's like so much information out there and, and for a good reason. Um, On how to enter into relationship like dating and where and how and like all of that. But exiting one, there isn't a lot of information.

Steph: 11:12

Yeah. Well, and, and most of us at some point in our lives exit a relationship So how do you think about that process of like walking people through that? Like what do you think is missing from the way that we typically go about that?

Gina: 11:27

Yeah. It's a really good question. I. I think that a lot of us don't know how to let go And so it gets really, it gets really messy and it gets really ugly and toxic sometimes, unfortunately. And, uh, I think that there was, I think, I know that there's a way to end things graciously and, and with more compassion than there is. Um, How we normally see it. Like even in the media, you know, there's, there's always, um, someone breaking up and then it's,

Steph: 12:02

Mm.

Gina: 12:03

whose fault is it? It's always like, who do we be mad at and who do we blame, Um, so I think there's definitely that piece missing. Like, can we do this in a more compassionate way?

Steph: 12:14

Yeah. Um, so what about the Ingram? Tell us about your type and how it shows up in the work that you do.

Gina: 12:21

So I identify as a self press two. I think it definitely speaks a lot to how I want to be of service and. also in the realm of relationships for type two's relationships is such a, a big part of their lives. And I don't know, just bringing some, some support, peace, comfort. Like that all sounds great to me. And I'm not the kind of two, like I don't bake for anybody. I don't offer to help like in a practical, acts of service way, you know, but if you need someone to talk to, then I'm, then I'm there,

Steph: 13:03

Yeah.

Gina: 13:04

so I think it definitely shows up that way. And, uh, the igram in general, I think in, in my practice, it's, it's, it gives people language to their experiences and so often we don't have that. And so we feel alone or we feel lost. Uh, I think that's where it shows up the most.

Steph: 13:25

Yeah. Yeah. If somebody is coming to you and they don't know about the agram, but they are going through, you know, one of these. You know, a divorce or a breakup, um, do you walk them through their type or do you help them find a, Is that an integral part of that type of work?

Gina: 13:42

Yeah, it is. So whether I'm working, if I'm working with someone one on one or in a group setting, we're first like addressing what's going on immediately, which is usually a lot of grief and withdrawals maybe. Um, so when we're working together, I don't jump into the Engram right away, Um, but if they already know their type, then it definitely helps to navigate a little bit of that with, and I would say that most of the time. Once some of the grief has sort of lessened and they're able to see a little bit more clearly, uh, then we get into all the self discovery and let's, let's figure, let's figure this stuff out and yeah.

Steph: 14:26

Yeah. Well yeah, and I've seen you talk a lot about grief. And I think, um, in general I think we're very bad at grief. Um, so I'm curious if that's been your experience too. If, if you know, you think we're bad at grief, and if so, why? But also why do you think grieving is the most important part of that process? Like, why does that need so much attention?

Gina: 14:49

Yeah, I, I do think that we're, it's a, a skill or. the coping mechanisms are not usually there. Um, for, for grief. And again, I think it's language like when someone realizes like, Oh, I am grieving. Like I just lost the person that I thought I was gonna spend the rest of my life with, um, that I, this imagined future that I had with them. So much, so much of our identities also die in that relationship. You know, you're never gonna be that person with that person ever again. And so, um, we don't know what to do with it. Like, again, we were never taught, like, you know, and it, it can feel like a death. Uh, it doesn't always, but a lot of people identify with, with, yeah, it feels like someone's died. Um, or part of me has died. And, um, Yeah, I think it, it's definitely important because we can't just get to the glow up part. You know, everyone's like so fixated on the glow up, like, um, whether that's physical or, you know, mental, internal, financial, I mean, everyone sort of has their laying that they wanna like, I wanna be a better person after this. Well, that's, that's great. And that's definitely, um, that's definitely important if it, if it's important to you. If we bypass that grief, it's gonna come out anyway, you know?

Steph: 16:15

Yeah. Yeah, that's such a great point. How has it been for you as a coach? You're two, you know, self-preservation too though, so you, you know, you have that, more of that desire to like make sure that you're meeting your own needs, but, um, how has that been? Like, how do you make sure that you are feeling fulfilled and refreshed as you work with other people?

Gina: 16:40

Yeah. Uh, I definitely had to start to kind of look at where I was feeling depleted, uh, or where I was finding tension in the work that I do. Some of the conversations with clients can be pretty heavy. There's a lot of space holding. And so what I did was I adjusted my schedule first and I said, Okay, I'll do, I usually do, uh, client sessions only on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays. And that gives me like four other days of the week where I'm not intaking, um, and I'm not sitting and holding space. So, That definitely helps. And then also looking at how much time I leave between sessions, I have to give myself about a half an hour, um, to like get up, um, maybe go out for a walk, play with Sammy, my dog, something that's gonna like, pull me back to Earth,

Steph: 17:44

Yeah.

Gina: 17:44

um, and that helps. Plus I have like, I'm looking here at my desk, like I have facial sprays, like essential oils, like. Bringing in other senses, um, really helps. And, um, and then I, I honestly try my best. Not always, but I try my best to like give myself a hard stop with work.

Steph: 18:04

Wow. Yeah, that feels difficult sometimes.

Gina: 18:08

As I'm cringing. Yes. It's hard.

Steph: 18:11

So, as you teach about this concept though, of like cultivating really conscious relationships, um, you know, we've already been talking about like the importance of boundaries. Um, but for you as a two, what do you think is the most important thing? For people who struggle to to set healthy boundaries, like why do you think that's important and how can we be healthier about that?

Gina: 18:36

Hmm. Oh man. Yeah. Boundaries is such a big, uh, it's like, I don't think it's where everything kind of starts, but it kind of feels that way. Like, it kind of feels like when you're starting to do self development work, self awareness, it's like boundaries is like bam. It's like usually the first thing that kind of comes up. And I, I can kind of see how that happens. Um, I think the most was, you know, one of the most important things that I've seen, not just with, um, clients or you know, myself, but just in general. There's this. How can I take care of myself? How can I have my own back? Just how can I have my own back?

Steph: 19:14

I like that

Gina: 19:15

Yeah. And we don't know sometimes, and I think that's sort of the starting point. It's like before we even set boundaries or maintain them or create them, how do we know where we even need them? And I think it goes to like, Well, what, What are your needs? What are your wants? And. This could be in the context of a relationship or, um, just in the next hour of your life or the restaurants you're going to. Like, it's, you know, there's a micro and then there's like, like the big macro Um, and I think it does help to start small, especially if you're just sort of like getting into Yes, I know, I definitely need some boundary work. You know? Um, we can't go straight to that big boundary. It's. It's, it's gonna be too difficult. Your nervous system's gonna be dysregulated. You won't be able to hold it. Um, so definitely I think like starting small and just being kind.

20:14

Moving on to type three. We are first talking with Kimberly Reese. So this is from season two, episode five, carving your own path as an Enneagram three. And Kim Reese is an LCSW which means she's a licensed therapist. And also an Enneagram teacher podcaster. And in this clip, we talk more about what it's like to be emotional as an Enneagram three. I think that's something that's often overlooked. About this specific Enneagram type, but in both of the type three clips you'll hear today, we're talking more about this aspect of the three personality. And why we often overlook it. And at the top of the episode, as well as at the end of this clip, you're going to hear a little bit more about failure for threes and Y so hard for us to put ourselves out there, especially when we're not sure how we're going to do, or if we will be successful. So here's Kim Reese.

Kim Reese: 21:11

I have always known that I am an emotionally sensitive person. I've always that I've always felt that. And going back to, um, this notion of armor, um, and some of our experiences, especially as black people,

Steph Barron Hall: 21:33

mm-hmm

Kim Reese: 21:34

like I got messaging surrounding my sensitivity and that I needed to, um, figure it out. like I was gonna be in situations and spaces where the expectations were gonna. Um, low and I needed to exceed them. And so, um, so a little context. Um, I was in predominantly white spaces as far as like education up through high school. Um, my high school was all black. Um, and then college, undergrad and grad school. I went to PWIs predominantly white schools. So, um, That was kind of where, um, my parents mostly were coming from and them kind of cautioning me and trying to prepare me for the types of spaces I was gonna occupy and kind of what my mindset needed to be in order for me to be successful. Um, and so with that, there wasn't a lot of time for emotions. There wasn't a lot of space for emotions. You aren't like you aren't gonna have a lot of time to feel. Um, so you need to figure out how. Suck it up, um, and not let them see you. Sweat was also oftentimes a, um, a, a message. I got. So, um, grappling with that, like knowing that I was very sensitive, knowing that I was feeling a lot, um, especially in some of those spaces and situations, um, there were times where I was bullied and picked on and it was about features. Um, and they were by white students. And that really, really hurt my feelings and there wasn't time to feel you needed to suck it up. Keep going. Um, don't let'em see you sweat. So grappling with that. Was hard and has been hard and has been very impactful for me, um, just throughout my development and throughout my life. And so, um, it's interesting to kind of have all of that going on, knowing again, at a young age, what I'm feeling a, a call to do. Um, as far as, you know, professionally for the rest of my life, um, is because I want people to like, be able to feel, um, that was my whole thing. I knew and sense that. Feeling we could heal. Um, if we could allow ourselves to connect with the hurt and the anger and the, uh, fear and the disappoint, all of that, that we can experience on a day to day basis in response to racism, um, and classism and sexism, um, that if we can allow ourselves to feel, then we can heal through that. If we keep telling ourselves that we don't have time to feel and keep trying to brush it under the rug and say, we, you know, don't go to therapy, like it's just gonna perpetuate some of these patterns. So, um, So I think it very much played into again, why I ended up doing the work that I'm doing. Um, and I think that's how it shows up in the work that I do on a day to day basis. I'm so passionate about it. So when I'm sitting in front of my clients and we're dealing with emotions, like I love it. I love Um, I use the feelings wheel every day. Some of my clients will roll their eyes. Some of my clients now have it saved in their phone and they're like, I have it. And I'm ready for it. Some clients ask for it when they know that they, um, are having some feelings and they're having a hard time identifying it. Um, it's very, very, very important to the work that I do on a day to day basis.

Steph Barron Hall: 24:57

Yeah. Yeah. And I love that perspective too, because I think something you said is really interesting, which is that sense of sensitivity that you've always had and like that emotional sensitivity, I find that, and, and. I will say, I think that this is true of a lot of like threes who haven't really done a lot of this work or, or keep themselves very busy. Um, but I find that a lot of the stereotypes about threes are like that they don't feel, or that they don't care. even though we know that they're heart types, right. We know that they're in the heart center. Um, but the more I talk to threes and, and I mean, this has been my experience myself is that feels like the emotions are just right under the surface. Um, And there is a lot more sensitivity than we typically let on.

Kim Reese: 25:48

absolutely. Absolutely. And so, um, My experience, you know, as a human. Um, but also as a, as a, as a black woman, um, some of that has been well, you know, you won't, you won't have time to, you won't have time to do that. If you wanna make it in this world, if you wanna make you wanna be successful as a black person in this world, you won't, you gotta, you know, you're gonna have to work so much harder. Already, you don't have time to let yourself feel and you really don't have time to let them see, um, those feelings, especially if they're getting to you. That is what has kind of fed into that. And that is what I felt was very much missing when I was learning about my type, um, you know, being able to incorporate those types of experiences for us at black, as black people, um, that goes into or can drive some of, um, you. The ways again, we, we protect ourselves or we put on that armor in the form of our dominant type structure. Um, uh, it was, it felt, it just feels important to include that in the conversation.

Steph Barron Hall: 26:50

Yeah. Yeah. how do you think the image thing comes up in the self-preservation three?

Kim Reese: 26:59

Um, I. We tend to think we don't have the issue. Um, I tend to think that we were vain about not having that issue

Steph Barron Hall: 27:10

vain about not being a vain mm-hmm And, and not realizing maybe that it's a stronger driving force than you realize. Yeah.

Kim Reese: 27:21

Yeah. Um, yes And so. I never thought that, uh, going back to some of the things that initially I've struggled with, like accepting, when I learned about, um, threes, I never thought that fear of failure was a thing for me. I never really thought fear. Wasn't sure what I was afraid of. I knew I didn't like snakes and I knew. That the thought of not having, um, my loved ones in my life. That that was really, really, really scary for me, but anything else? I really didn't. Couldn't when anytime anyone would ask me about fear, I couldn't really name anything. And then I just learning about, um, this and started paying more attention to myself and realized that like the idea of. um, yeah, like not like a failing at something. It was much more impactful to me, um, than I ever realized. And so for me, that I think is kind of how that so much of that is driven by image. Um, and I think that for me, that's how I wasn't aware of it. Um, was realizing that it, it is important to me, um, to be seen as, um, someone who people can admire, um, you know, to be able to, to accept that and realize at times that that's the case for me. Um, and that that's very much an image driven thing because who are you and how do you feel when that's not the. You know, when you aren't being admired, what's there. Um, and in that moment where it's just like, what is, what is there um, it was, it just really made it clear, you know, where I needed to pay attention and where I needed to, to do some work and be graceful and loving and attentive with myself.

Steph Barron Hall: 29:15

mm-hmm yeah. And I, I always am curious. I actually was doing a typing interview recently. had this conversation about threes and failure, because they're like, well, I don't really fail at things. And I think that for a lot of threes, that is true. only because we do tend to put in the work, but also cuz we don't tend to do things that we're not good at,

Kim Reese: 29:42

right.

Steph Barron Hall: 29:43

you know? And we set ourselves up to always succeed, but I'm like, what are we missing? You know, what else in life could we be missing

Kim Reese: 29:52

Yeah, totally, totally. I laugh. Um, I don't, and, and again, I don't, I didn't realize this until, um, I knew it was three, uh, three and was open to learning about it. That's why I don't like the ball. Um, that's why I don't like miniature golf. There's so many things that I've always just like

Steph Barron Hall: 30:12

oh, I

Kim Reese: 30:14

When people ask I

Steph Barron Hall: 30:16

Oh my gosh.

Kim Reese: 30:16

when people ask me if I wanna do it, I would just get so irritated, but I didn't know why, you know, and I wanted to hang out, but I just didn't wanna, I don't like game night sometimes, because depending on who I'm paired up with, if, you know, if we're not going to be on it, like it's gonna be anxiety provoking for me. So I don't wanna do that. I don't want to lose. So, um, yes. And, but it was so helpful to realize that that was what that was because I. I didn't, I, I was not paying attention or I was blind to it.

Steph Barron Hall: 30:46

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I, I laugh so hard because it, it reminded me of your story about mini golf

Kim Reese: 30:55

Oh,

Steph Barron Hall: 30:55

your podcast.

Kim Reese: 30:57

yeah, that was at top golf. So driving range, little different, um, little different, but also, yeah, I didn't. I didn't want to do that because I didn't feel very confident about it going into it. And I did kill it in the end. Um, but

Steph Barron Hall: 31:11

Yes. Well, it kind of made me think of this thing. Where I've had to intentionally be like, okay. If people see me suck at this, like it is gonna be okay, like I will survive. And that's kind of the, one of the things I've been learning.

Kim Reese: 31:27

Yeah. Um, yeah, so yeah, we, cuz that not doing things that we're not at part that. I really didn't realize that that was even a thing Um, I love basketball. I love, love, love, love, love basketball. And I played basketball. Um, middle school, high school. Um, my freshman year made the varsity team and did not even try out, try out for JV. And I was so afraid that I was gonna look like I did not know what I was doing, that I, I did not play and I never played again. Um, now I'll just play, like I'll shoot around. And when I do it, there's like, you know, there's a part of me that does that grieves, like, girl, why didn't you stick with it? Cuz you really are good. You really are good. I am. Um, but that even then, you know, um, and not having the, for the longest, I told myself that I didn't play because, um, I wasn't disciplined enough cuz I didn't wanna show up for practice and that was not the truth. So going back to the self deceit. Right. That's what I was telling myself and therefore telling people, but it's really what I believe to be the truth, but the truth is I didn't want to be, I didn't wanna be vulnerable. I didn't want to take the risk of like learning how to get better at something that I was already obviously pretty good at. Um, and what that would look like to people. Um, I didn't wanna take that risk, so I didn't stick with it.

32:55

Continually type three. This next clip is from season three, episode one. Entitled the Enneagram path to emotional intelligence with Scott Allinder and in this clip. Scott and I are discussing his journey and to finding himself as an Enneagram three and a story he tells in the opening of his new book, the Enneagram of emotional intelligence. Like Kim's story before we're narrowing in further on this emotional nature of type three. And some of the dire consequences of continuing to ignore this very important. Part of our nature. Here is Scott Allinder.

Scott Allender: 33:32

I was familiar with the engram at a high level, but when I, when I came to Nashville, I felt like every single person I met. Ask me what my Enneagram type was. I think, I think it was, I think you have to sort of pledge allegiance to the Enneagram if you wanna live here. At least, you know, when it, when I first moved here, that seemed to be the case. Um, and I sat out on a journey to discover it. I started, uh, reading a ton, getting every book that everybody recommended. I really struggled to find my type,

Steph Barron Hall: 34:04

Hmm.

Scott Allender: 34:04

um, Anytime somebody described the nine core types to me, or I read about the nine core types, I'm like, ah, the three a little bit. But no, and maybe the one I tried on the one hat for a while and then for a second I tried on a little bit of the six hat and then I think a War eight hat for a while. None of it fit. I just was like, these aren't, these aren't right. Um, And there was two events in my life, um, that kind of propelled me to go deeper and want to really discover it. And one was, I was, um, I was part of, my friend was working on his PhD and he was running, um, a group of guy. He, he, he, well he amassed a group of guys and the whole idea was how can. We help men get better connected to their emotions and talk about emotions differently and even re relate to one another more vulnerably. And honestly, I'm, I'm, I'm redacting it, but that was kind of the, the gist. And we were sort of his, his, uh, lab rats for this first experiment. And, uh, day one it was, he had eight emotions written on the wall. And all you had to do in popcorn style fashion, there's like 15 guys in the room. 1215. Identify one or two of the emotions you're feeling, say them out loud, no context, no explanation. Just say it and just move on. And just thank somebody for saying it. And I couldn't identify any of'em. I was like, I don't know what I'm feeling. And what's interesting is some of the people in the room that I didn't even really know, I had a hunch what they were gonna say. Based on how they were looking at the words and the, the, I don't know how they were, something about what they were expressing. I was like, I don't know. And I was kind of getting close and yet scarily kind of going, but what do I feel?

Steph Barron Hall: 36:07

Hmm.

Scott Allender: 36:07

And I didn't know. Um, and so that set me off, uh, down a path of going deeper. Um, and I finally, I picked up Beatrice Chestnuts, uh, complete Enneagram 27 personality types. And when I finally got to the counter type of three self-preservation, three, the light bulbs went off and I was like, okay, okay, this, this is scally true. And I also resonated quite a bit to the self-preservation four description too, and I kind of went back and forth. But ultimately landing, I'm a self-preservation three who overuses the four wing? So that was, that was one big entry point. And then I had another, I write about this in the book, but I sort of start the book this way. Um, around about the same time I was on a business trip and driving down the street and I found, I thought I was having a cardiac event. Like suddenly out of nowhere I just felt my heart was erratically going and I felt like I was gonna faint and, um, lose control of the car and the whole thing. So I. I'm like trying. I'm in a rental car and I'm trying to make my way to the exit and I start dialing 9 1 1 on myself and I'm already embarrassed and scared and just, I thought, oh my gosh, this something's te. I've never had anything like this. Something terrible is happening and I pull into this parking lot. Happened to be a casino parking lot. Um, I don't know why that's important to the story, but I thought I'd throw that in. Um, and I, and then I could hear the ambulances coming and they give me the EKG and the whole thing. And anyway, I write about in more detail in the book. But, um, the long, the sh the short of it was, it wasn't a cardiac event. Had several tests later and stuff just to be sure. But, um, it was stored up anxiety and. Information that I had repressed that had been in my body, and it finally decided it was time to come screaming out and awaken me to some things that I hadn't, um, been connected to. Uh, namely in many ways my own emotional experience. So threes being right at the center of the heart triad are. Brilliant at using feelings as you would know Steph, to understand the emotional expectations and of the room and what other people might be feeling or wanting from us. And really terrible at connecting to what we're feeling ourselves because we're so concerned with what the room wants. I dunno, you're, you, you identify as a three, but how does. I'd be curious to hear some of your experiences with connecting to your own emotions or if any of that rings true for you.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:54

Yeah. Well, it's actually really funny. I hear. I mean, another theme I hear commonly with threes is, um, I found myself in the ER cuz I was overworked, burned out, having panic attacks, et cetera. Um, but I actually have, you know, I loved that you opened your book with that, that story. And I, and that's the, the thing I kind of wanted to come back and ask you about is like that connecting the body, mind, heart experience. Because I think S three s, even though our heart tells us a lot, A lot of the time we don't let it out. And so sometimes our body ends up telling us the thing. So I have a really similar story. Um, when I was first interested in the Enneagram, I, um, was trying to figure out like, how do I actually apply this? How do I actually use this? Right? I, I wanted something applicable and I wasn't really finding that in a lot of the, the reading that I was doing or the podcast listening or whatever. Um, But I remember one morning I was driving to work and I reached to turn up the radio and suddenly I was like, wait, I don't care about this. Like, I don't, I don't care about what's on the radio. And so I just like turned it off instead. And I recognized, oh, okay. I fill my mind with all this chatter from everything else because there's something else happening. And I, all I could identify is like, I feel icky, like. That's the word, icky. And just the rest of my drive, which, you know, was very slow because it was Southern California. So, um, the rest of my drive, I spent just like, okay, you know, what's happening here? What, what am I feeling? Um, and I think I was able to untangle that it was anxiety, um, but I didn't know. Why or what that was connected to. Um, and so I've just had this really long process as of, as well of like getting a lot more in touch with emotions and at some point being like, I just wish I could bottle it all back up because I'm so tired. You know, I'm so tired of it all. It's like not, not very efficient at all, you know, um, to be emotional all the time. And then, yeah, it's just a whole thing.

Scott Allender: 41:09

Yeah, yeah. Oh, I've, I've made that comment more than once. Um, especially when you get connected as a three to the primary emotion that sits below the surface of awareness, which is sadness.

Steph Barron Hall: 41:21

Mm-hmm.

Scott Allender: 41:22

And I don't like always being more connected to sadness. It was a little ignorance as bliss sometimes is, is a nice, is a nice thing. But you know what, it, it came pouring outta me. There was the truth is, I wasn't looking for that moment. Um, it happened. I was sort of forced to lay down, uh, in a casino parking lot and start a journey of taking inventory,

Steph Barron Hall: 41:49

Mm-hmm.

Scott Allender: 41:50

um, and connecting to all the things that I thought I could just push aside for another day and just keep performing, keep going, keep reaching, and I was in a perfectly good mood. I, you know, there was nothing going on. That was the thing, right? I hadn't gone through a bad day. I hadn't had something happen to me One minute I'm singing along to the radio and just grooving, and the next minute I was being, you know, the alarms went off.

Steph Barron Hall: 42:13

Yeah. Well, and I also think that the role of self deceit plays in here too, because we believe, okay, if I don't seem sad, then I'm not,

Scott Allender: 42:22

Right,

Steph Barron Hall: 42:22

or if I don't seem emotional, then I'm not.

Scott Allender: 42:25

right,

Steph Barron Hall: 42:26

But how you seem doesn't actually change how you are, which is mind boggling, I think.

Scott Allender: 42:32

right.

42:33

finally for this episode, we have type four. This clip comes from. Season three episode three entitled. The armor of personality as an Enneagram four with TJ. Gorham. In this clip, we're discussing what it was like for TG to recognize herself. As an Enneagram four. And how we sometimes have an impulse to deny parts of ourselves that we don't like, or that don't fit with our self-concept based on our Enneagram type. In this clip, we're focusing on the both and of understanding our types and how we still need our armor sometimes. And that's okay. Like all of the other clips in this episode. There's a lot more to this conversation. So I hope you'll check out the full episode.

Chichi Agorom: 43:14

there was a part of me, like I mentioned before, that felt very seen by my initial exploration of the type, particularly feeling less alone. Um, and that's part of the story, right? That's connected with the four experience in general is I feel alone, I feel misunderstood. I feel like it's just me. My experience is solitary. So learning about the Indio grammar learning, oh, there's millions of people like me, felt like, oh, okay, I'm actually not that special. And that feels nice. Um, I, I don't, I'm not outside of a circle actually. I'm, there's, there are many other people in this circle and that felt really. uh, freeing in a way. And then of course there were the, the parts of it that I was like, Ooh, I don't like that. And I don't do other people think of me like this. I don't, I don't want that. I don't want people to think of me as, um, too, you know, emotionally sensitive, which is feedback I had gotten as a kid, or I don't want people to see me as dramatic or, you know, all these sorts of things. And so, um, I think this is where something I've noticed within myself and then I've noticed with other people as I've done agram work with them, is that we can, we can have this, um, subconscious tendency towards performing health. You know, when you come to the Ingram, you learn about your type, you learn about the strengths and the challenges. You're like, okay, I don't, I know that people experience fours or knives or whatever like this, and I don't like that. So I'm gonna try to present myself and show up in a way that doesn't look like that, that doesn't portray those characteristics to make sure that I'm still acceptable, I'm still lovable, whatever. But, but that's not actual freedom. that's not actual health. Right? Um, and so I started to do that for a few years, was like performing the version of the healthy four that I thought I needed to be, to be okay versus actually practicing being with reality, being with myself in reality, offering compassion for the version of myself that I was in the moment, not the version I thought I needed to be to be loved. And that's of course, ongoing practice. But that was like my first, you know, learning about the type. And then it's like, ooh, okay, now that I know about this and I know how this impacts other people, how do I shift to make sure that they still like me?

Steph Barron Hall: 45:43

Mm-hmm.

Chichi Agorom: 45:44

which is a different question in comparison to like, how do I get free? those are two different, um, questions. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 45:53

Yeah. And I think it can be painful to get that sort of feedback when you're not, um, like if you really don't feel like. Anyone really likes you for who you are, can be so painful to get that feedback of like, who you are is too much or it's too dramatic or it's too emotional, too sensitive to anything really. I think that can be so painful. Um, and I have seen that too, you know, of like the performing health, or even like there have definitely been things where I'm like, oh, that's not really actually just explaining my type. You know, like that's, that's really like a misunderstanding I think. But then other things that people point out, um, about my type in particular and recognizing, okay, maybe I wanna deny that, but actually is it true? And like you're saying, sitting with.

Chichi Agorom: 46:44

Yeah, cuz that that is, The work that we're invited to with the Ingram, I, it's, it's about coming back to reality in nine different ways. We want to shift reality, modify it, edit it, change it, you know, all the things. And it's hard for all of us to just be with reality. Um, and in reality, I am exceptional. I'm unique, I am boring. I am inadequate. I am average. I am amazing. All of those things are true in reality. But if I spend all of my time trying to, uh, avoid or deny or shift reality into what I think it should be, into the version I think I should be, in reality, I never get to accept and love the parts of myself that hold the things I don't like. I never get to, to receive the affirmation and love that is available to me because I keep hiding those parts of my. I keep, um, shaming or critiquing those parts of myself. Um, and we can't grow without, you know, it's like you can't leave the place you're at without first admitting that you're there. And I think that that's, that's the hardest part for a lot of us is because we want to see, we see that the things that maybe we wanna shift or change, and immediately we go into problem solving mo mode. Like, how do I fix this about myself? How do I hide this? And there is no space for can I just allow this part of myself to be, I don't actually have to love her and think this is the most amazing part of myself, but can I just let her be instead of trying to kick her out or hide her?

Steph Barron Hall: 48:29

Yeah. Hold her at arm's length almost. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think in your book, I love the way that you. Use, you know, you frame this, this, the types in the, the form of the word armor, like that's the word that you use. And I love that terminology. Um, so why do you use that? Like, why is that framing important?

Chichi Agorom: 48:52

Yeah. So it's, it's, um, it's terminology I, that felt true to me as I was learning. Um, it's not one that's original necessarily with the, the narrative, although there are versions like some of the older writing about the Enneagram, um, like Helen Palmer, who's one of the founders of the narrative, Igram, would talk about types as like a shell. So, you know, there, there are, I, I pull from that lineage in that. Um, but I referred to the types as armor because one of the things that was really freeing for me in learning about my armor was, or learning about my type, rather, was the realization that it is something separate from me. It is not the entirety of who I am. It's a collection of survival strategies I use to make my way through the world, but it is not the fullness of who I am in the world. And I think for so long prior to the Enneagram, I really did see myself as my survival strategies primarily. And so thinking of it as Armor helped me, helped my understanding of it as this is some, these are things that I do in relationship with other people, in connection with other people to feel accepted, to feel lovable, to feel valuable. Um, and I learned to do those things over time because certain parts of me were, you know, praised and affirmed for showing up certain ways. And then other parts of me didn't get that kind of affirmation or praise. And so my brain made correlations and said, oh, this is how you have to show up in order to be loved, in order to be accepted. And so I use those things as armor. I use those things as um, protection. But if I'm able to see that as separate for me, then I create enough space to then be able to choose when I need to use the armor and when I don't. And also it allows space for me to explore what else is true about me. If I'm not just the person, if I'm not just the armor, then what else is there? And that felt really exciting. It felt like, um, you know, like a world of possibilities. If I've only thought about myself as this one thing, this one body. Box and the engram is inviting me to open the box to say, your box is valid and useful and necessary, and there's an entire world outside of it. Then what else can I find? What else, what else could be true about me? And so in my process and my personal exploration, that is why thinking of it that way was helpful for me. But then it was also particularly helpful because I'm a black woman who exists in a society that is not made to support or protect black folks and black women. And so in many ways, I need my armor on a regular, almost daily basis. Right? But at the same time, I was learning, uh, through my trainings that the goal was kind of to live this undefended unarmed life. You know, we learn about our types, we learn about how they were formed in childhood. We think about how, um, it was necessary for like maybe 10 year old you or 15 year old you. But now, now that you're an adult, you can realize you don't need those patterns in the same way anymore. And you can step into this vulnerable, undefended way of being. And I kept feeling like this really works for only one group of people because I can't live in that undefended vulnerable state all the time and remain alive, um, in the world that we live in and with the identities that I hold. And that's why I think these conversations are helpful because it's important to recognize it's not, it's not a binary, it's not that the opposite then of being. Vulnerable is to be completely cut off from self and completely armored, right? It's to be able to have that knowledge that, that body awareness of there is my armor that I need and then there is me and I get to tend, to me, I get to be vulnerable with me. Cuz one of the things that I also see personally and then in working with people with the Ingram is, um, I really believe how we do one thing is how we do everything. So we use our armor to protect ourselves from the external threats and, um, external fears, but that's also how we relate to ourselves. So if I'm not, if I think that the only, the only way you would care about me or find me valuable or lovable is if I offer something to you that's unique and different and exceptional, then I am also spending my time diminishing, criticizing, um, being mean to the parts of myself. That I experience as ordinary or boring or inadequate. Right? So that's part of my work too, is that's, that's the vulnerability of holding myself in, in reality in the present moment. Um, which requires me to again, create that space between the armor and myself

Steph Barron Hall: 54:09

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I think that's so beautiful. And like also clarifying, like there is an essence that is deeply. Good and, that to be with that is a good thing. And to also know that not everyone gets to, to see that, and sometimes that's okay.

Chichi Agorom: 54:33

and that us seeing it too. Not to say it's an exclusion of other people, cuz we do need other people, but I can also spend time seeing. noticing, witnessing those parts of myself and that too can be healing instead of only waiting for it to be affirmed, validated, seen from the outside,

Steph Barron Hall: 54:54

Yeah.

Chichi Agorom: 54:55

which is a story I would say maybe is more true for heart types, um, to threes and fours cuz we tend to outsource our sense of worth and validation and approval. And it's like, how you see me out there is how I must be. And so then a lot of the work is, well how do I, how do I see me? How do I offer myself some of that affirmation and validation and love that I think is only valid if it's coming from the outside.

Steph Barron Hall: 55:24

thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify