Words of Wisdom from Enneagram Types 8, 9, & 1

Liz Goulding: 1:31

I think that's funny. I, I think that- I am a perfectionist,

Steph Barron Hall: 1:38

Mm-hmm

Liz Goulding: 1:40

but I'm laughing. Cuz I'm about to say, I don't think I'm a very good perfectionist and that, and that maybe feels like the most, Enneagram One thing I could ever say.

1:53

Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram and real life. A podcast that will help you go beyond any gram theory and into practical understanding. So that we can all apply at the Enneagram in our daily lives. And I'm your host Steph barren hall. And on today's episode, I have words of wisdom from the three body types. So those are types 8, 901. And a lot of my favorite podcasts do episodes like this, where they kind of bring together different clips that are really punchy or really poignant and. I love that idea because as I'm talking with all these different people, Over the last few years, I found that there are always these moments with the guests that I'm like, oh, I wish every single person of this type or who is in a relationship with this type could hear. This part and sometimes they're humorous and sometimes. They really have nothing to do with any grim work in particular, but really growth work more generally. But each of the guests on this episode, Have stories to share about how they've kind of stepped out of their typical worn in personality patterns. One thing we know with the Enneagram is that it's really this personality structure. That we use as armor. I love the Gorham. If you haven't listened to that episode, highly recommend it. Um, a few episodes back, but we talked about. The Enneagram has armor and sometimes it's good. It can keep us safe, but a lot of the time it's very ego-driven and. There are ways that we need to step out of those patterns in the way of looking at the world, the way of believing about the world. To find something else. And each of the stories in this episode, Show a little bit of a different side of the type and how they found more joy or more freedom or more self-compassion through their own and our work journey. And I loved hearing from each of these guests. And so you'll be able to hear some little practical things, as well as some of the things that they've tried that have worked or haven't worked. And I hope that whether you are one of these types, Or if you would just, you know, love one of these types, or you're just curious about the Enneagram overall. I hope that you'll take some of these words and that they'll resonate and you'll find a way to connect with. Each of the lessons that they're, they've shared. So. Before each clip, I will introduce the guest and then you can also find the guests. Um, links in the show notes as well. So I'll, I'll link everything for you, um, and kind of give you a roadmap, but if you are here yes. To hear more about these types and you haven't listened to these episodes. Definitely check out the show notes afterward and you'll be able to hear the full episodes these clips are pulled from. So again, we're doing the body types this week. Next week. We'll hear words of wisdom from the heart type. So that's two, three and four. And the following week we'll hear from the head types, five, six, and seven. So I really hope you enjoyed this episode. And our first guest is Jessica Denise Dixon. So this. So this clip comes from season two, episode four, entitled joy liberation, and anti-racist Enneagram with. An Enneagram eight, Jessica. Denise Dixon and Jessica is a coach, an Enneagram practitioner, and anti-racism educator. And she uses each of those threads to really weave this impactful and beautiful set of programs where she works with people around their own internalized racism and things like that, as well as working with. Nervous systems and, um, You know, any grim work as well. And she really weaves them all together. So during this clip, you're going to hear us talk a little bit more about the passion of type eight. Which is less and the virtue of innocence and this entire episode was filled with so much joy and laughter. Singing. Only from Jessica's end. Um, and it was just a fantastic episode. She just brings a lot of enthusiasm to this work, which I really appreciate. And I think that she has a sense of lightness and curiosity. That is a marker of growth for, for eights. So I hope you enjoy this clip. Here's Jessica, Denise Dixon.

Jessica Denise Dickson: 6:08

But I, I think I, when I realized that it was more, it was, it was more about like this lust for life, this Gusto, this, this energetic move to wanting more and wanting things more intense. Um, I was like, oh, okay. Yes. And it can be sexual, but it's not, you know, it's not necessarily, it's just like every time I teach the type sevens, I always joke that, you know, they're not responsible for the obesity epidemic just because their passion is gluttony. You know, it's like much more than that, you know? And so I, I do think that

Steph Barron Hall: 6:42

the excess.

Jessica Denise Dickson: 6:44

yeah, the, the, the Enneagram can, could, you know, the world could use it overhauling language, I think in a lot of ways. Um, so that we don't have to try to. do all the work to, you know, explain things that people already have a concept of.

Steph Barron Hall: 7:02

Yeah.

Jessica Denise Dickson: 7:03

Um,

Steph Barron Hall: 7:03

Yes. Definitely. And then I think also, well, I, I actually love the virtue of innocence for, for aids. Um, just like the freshness of that. Um, and like the softness. I think that for a lot of people though, if the passion and the virtue are the first thing that they come across at the Ingram, they're like, what? No,

Jessica Denise Dickson: 7:28

Right. Oh my gosh. The, especially the virtue of innocence aids are like, what? This is much like the defense mechanism, like people I'm like defense mechanisms are the hardest thing to see. So don't worry about it. Like the point is you exploring how they show up, because they are meant to be a defense. So you do not fall apart. Like that's what their point is. But the, between that and the virtues people are like, oh yeah, that's definitely, that's definitely not like, in a sense, like the one thing that it avoids is like, if you teach them that straight up and when I'm teaching it, I do call it the point of freedom. Because for me, it is like these moments where you're truly free, like where you're just like living in liberation and it may last a moment. It may last, you know, a season, but when I'm in innocence, there's something that is really, really special about those moments when I'm just like in pure joy, purely in pure presence, just like not worried about anything else, not having an agenda, not wondering if someone is coming behind my back, like not having to worry about where the pow it's just like this pure, pure, pure place. And I love it. I was actually just talking to another eight, um, in my I G DMS, Christy, and we were talking about another Hamilton song, the song dear Theodosia. And it is the song that Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton are singing to their new, new babies. And to me, it is like the. it is like the poster child of innocence. They're talking about creating this new nation and what they'll be able to take on and how they want to do good for these precious little, like, what will you become and what will the world become? And it's just like, to me, like pure creation and pure of just like protection of the, of the innocent, like, you know, we'll make it right for you. We'll pass it on to you and then you'll take it on. And it's just like this all like the hope of it. I'm like, Ugh, it just like guts me every time. Every single time I hear I'm surprised that I'm not in tears now. Um, but it just touches a deep part in me. And knowing that, you know, as an eight, we really. We really wanna leave something. We really wanna make a difference in the world. And our energy goes out so much because that's such a priority is we want to touch the world. So we have big energy that goes out and wants to touch everything and tries to touch everything and maybe does touch everything. Um, but it is all from this place of like wanting to make an impact, wanting to know that you're doing something that matters, that carries weight. And anyway, that is just like just a beautiful, beautiful, I think representation of, of that. And as is just a song that's being sung to these babies. I love it. I love it. Thank you for listening to my rant.

Steph Barron Hall: 10:36

Yeah. It's such a beautiful image. And I know that you were just mentioning, like, you first kind of started identifying it in yourself, the, the passion in 2015, so it's six, seven years later. Right. And, and this is like the place that you're at. And I think that is something that we just expect to move so much quicker

Jessica Denise Dickson: 10:58

yeah,

Steph Barron Hall: 10:59

and it just doesn't, and it doesn't mean that all the other stuff goes away. It's just, you're better at spotting it now.

Jessica Denise Dickson: 11:05

Yeah. And it's not supposed to be fast. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 11:09

yeah.

Jessica Denise Dickson: 11:10

It's not supposed to be we're we're we're in our hearts, we're in our bodies. You know, the head tries to process things as quickly as possible and move things through things as quickly as possible. And that has its own value. And when we get into the heart and we get into the body, They Becken us to slow down and to be present. And there's so much there that is awaiting that call. If we, if we answer

Steph Barron Hall: 11:47

yeah. So what I'm hearing you say for all the threes and eights out there is don't try to do any Agram work harder.

Jessica Denise Dickson: 12:00

it yeah. I mean, I try to just do it as hard as possible and then I'm like, oh, I think I'm. I think I missed it.

Steph Barron Hall: 12:12

Yeah. I'm way far past the point here.

Jessica Denise Dickson: 12:17

it is too real, too real, too real. Yeah. No, you're you are, you are meant to do it slowly. You are meant to take it, take it as a gift. of slowing you down intentionally and you know, getting to know other parts of yourself is not so bad, even if it's scary, even if it feels like, cuz the slowness makes you feel like you're gonna lose something, you know, it makes you feel like, oh, there's something wrong with me. Like why am I not? And I used to feel that way and I've had a very slow January and it's been lovely. I've like not really done a lot, really loved it. Just kind of like resting when I need to rest. And before when I've had seasons like this, my type eight was like, like just, ah there was much ferocity, um, in that and you know, it's like, and now I'm like, oh wow. I like, I can, I can see that passed me. It would've been like freaking out and currently is like, cuz often eights equate who we are with what we do. And if we're not then doing, it's like, wait, I do, I exist. Am I, you know? And so, um, it's like, yeah. Okay, cool. I'm not doing anything and I still, I still matter.

Steph Barron Hall: 13:51

I'm still here still making an impact just by being a human.

Jessica Denise Dickson: 13:55

Yeah. It's beautiful. Those, I still sometimes would rather be a robot. I'll be honest. would just,

Steph Barron Hall: 14:01

Like 100% efficiency.

Jessica Denise Dickson: 14:02

just like 100% like no emotions, none of the messiness. But then when I lean into it, I'm like, oh my God, I love the messiness because that is where like the truth really is. And uh, I'm just, I'm more complex than I want to be.

Steph Barron Hall: 14:21

Aren't we all I

Jessica Denise Dickson: 14:22

Right.

14:26

In this next clip I'm interviewing Jackie acres. This clip comes from season two, episode six, finding softness with EFT tapping as an Enneagram eight. So we have another Enneagram eight, but Jessica, our first clip was a social eight and Jackie is a self preservation eight. So you'll be able to hear a little bit of the difference. And the different eight subtypes here. So Jackie is an EFT practitioner who works with a lot of women who are struggling with burnout, anxiety, and feeling like everything is just too much. Which I really resonate with a lot of the time. And. Jackie. And I have talked about our similar experiences with anxiety. And so in this clip, she discusses how doing more has not always been the most helpful path forward for her and other things that have helped instead. So here's Jackie angry.

Jacqui: 15:13

So one of the intentions and all of my work is to. You create your own soft place to land for yourself. And again, how do you do that? How do you come home to yourself? And so I do have a community called being human together that it's a 10 week experience and people come into it for that time, but people often choose to stay. Not because they don't now have the tools to do it for themselves, but because they've now found a community of like minded and like hearted people and then personal growth becomes a fun adventure instead of a feel bad place. Right? Like it is always like, I love, like I said, personal growth is my number one value and I love growing and changing. And I don't love the language of be your, the best version of.

Steph: 15:58

Mmm

Jacqui: 15:58

for me the way I internalize that again. And it could be an Anya ground, eight thing, but I really get anything. That's like the best it's too big for me. Like I just have go all in. Like it's like, I have to be the best at that. Then I have to be the best version of me. There's so much pressure in the words, the best for me live your best life. Now I'm like, oh my God, I dunno what that is. So for me, that's too, there's too much pressure. If that works for someone else, you can call it whatever you want. I prefer to call it your favorite version of you. So that's fun, that's the, like the new adventure. like, how do we grow into our favorite version of ourselves? And I really think that beautifully dovetails with your work with the engram. It's like, okay. So as an engram eight. What's my favorite version of myself. And, um, that's the adventure that I think that we really wanna be invited on. And what doesn't come along on that adventure is the inner critic. So that harsh inner voice or the, um, you know, the, the whip at our back or the tisk of the, like the finger, like, you know, you should have those things we learn to leave behind because they truly are not helpful. And so you were mentioning, trying harder. I read someone, uh, once said I'm not gonna remember her name, but I saw this. Something about like, instead of trying harder, try softer. So that's some language that I've adopted in my own work. Because again, as in any gram eight, you can imagine that the idea of trying softer. Is very it's it's transformational for me, everything for me is about try harder. I think one of your Instagram posts was some, I can't remember tell me you're an eight without telling me you're an eight or something like that. And I think I messaged you the story of, um, I took a wheel pottery class in my early twenties and I was, she, the instructor taught us how to center the clay. She demonstrated it for us. And then we were asked now practice and we centered our own.

Steph: 18:00

mm-hmm

Jacqui: 18:00

I'm there on my wheel and I'm doing the thing and I'm trying so hard, so right. Trying hard like this clay is going to be mastered by me. I will win. I will control this clay. Like it will be centered so much like forceful energy there. And she came around, her name was Hilda. She came around and at the time she seemed ancient to me, I'm sure she was only 50 came around and she asked me to stop the wheel and lift up my hands for a moment. She goes, I just wanna see what you're doing there. So I stopped the wheel, lifted my hands and blood is dripping down from both of my like pinky knuckles, because I was, I mean, clay is little shards of glass, right. I was literally grinding down my knuckles in my attempt to try harder. So I love that analogy because when I remembered that it was actually specifically, um, in doing some, any groundwork that I was thinking of that memory and going, huh? that is like the journey of my life has been, how do I try softer? Because you can still center the clay. In fact, not just still, you actually can center the clay. I mean, I never successfully centered the clay when I tried to force it to my will and trying to force myself to my will has proved very counterproductive for It feels bad. It feels like I'm always failing. I'm never measuring up and not living up to my potential, not living my best life now. Cause I could always do better. So instead it's reframing it to, how can I grow into my favorite version of myself? How can I try softer today? What would a wildly unambitious goal look like for today? Trusting that then it all comes together. Right? And then it all adds up in the end.

Steph: 19:45

yeah. Yeah. And I. I, I love that analogy too, because which, by the way, the book, um, is by Andy Cober, I'm not sure if I'm saying Right, but it's called tri softer.

Jacqui: 19:56

name?

Steph: 19:57

haven't read it either, but I love that concept. And I, it is something that I've used too with eights, because there is that real, like intensity around doing, just doing everything harder and that will make it work and it just does not work

Jacqui: 20:15

totally my life in a nutshell. Yes. Yeah, the intensity is real for sure. But I used to feel so much judgment on myself about that intensity. Right. And now I really embrace it as it's this little special bit of magic that I have that helps me to. I, I think of it as a real playfulness now. Like I bring the intensity, I bring it to my work. I mean, that's how I show up big for all of my students and clients. And that's how, I mean, the whole gas lit by self help thing. I mean, I, I, I can't even help myself. Like if I see it, I'm like, I cannot not say it. And even if it's unpopular and countercultural, it's like, I literally like have to. And I actually really like that about the eight in me. Um, part feels powerful and purposeful. I've always been very action oriented and been willing to, I would say I'm risk averse. I actually am someone who struggled with a lot of anxiety in my and still I have anxiety pop up every now and again, but EFT tapping has really helped me with that. Like I used to wake up anxious every morning with that pit in my stomach and just feel like no matter. Like, I never felt like enough for the day. Like, I didn't feel like I had enough energy time, patience, grit, like any, like anything. I just felt defeated before I began like overwhelmed and anxious. So if anyone else out there can relate to that, it's not a fun way to wake up. I mean, we can say that with like so much compassion and empathy. Um, and that is honestly like my, one of the free tools that I offer is a, is a session it's a little, 10 minute EFT tapping session called start your day, calm, clear, and grounded. And that's why I chose to create that one is because that's something that I've needed for a long time. That's why I endeavor to do just a tiny bit of yoga in the morning, cuz it really sets my day off on the right foot. But I'm somebody who tried to do the like 5:00 AM miracle morning. So it's like, if you wanna get out there and tackle the day, and if you wanna crush your goals, you need to be up before anyone else's and get that first hour in the day. And you're supposed to organize it with like 20 minutes is journaling and 20 minutes is exercise and 20 minutes is, and I tried that for a while because, uh, it's the stuff I was reading. It's like, get up and have your miracle morning. Look, if that's working for someone, then I definitely don't wanna, I don't know if we're allowed to curse on here, but I don't wanna shit on it. Like if that's working for someone, then obviously do what works for you. But a lot of us are taking these cookie cutter. Approaches, because we're told that that's how to get to our goal or that's how to live our best life now, or be the best version of ourselves. And we're trying to do that. I was a mom of very young kids when I was trying to do that.

Steph: 23:14

Mm-hmm

Jacqui: 23:15

It felt like death to me. it did not feel good. That's one thing that I love what Adrian Misler, um, with yoga, with one of the things that I love about her brand is she says, find what feels good. And that's something I'm just absolutely obsessed with now, where what if we gave ourselves permission to find what feels good and go with that? We're so afraid that if it feels good, it's like, if it doesn't hurt a little, then it's probably not going to help us grow. It's the whole, like, get out of your comfort zone thing. And again, I think that none of these things I think are intended to be all or nothing like getting out of your comfort zone is important. That's the whole thing, like what your point is, is am I willing to like risk a little or, um, put something out there before it'ss. or beyond the possibility of any kind of criticism. Yeah. I actually am willing to do that because failure is part of the journey towards success. And so that is uncomfortable for me. I don't feel comfortable doing it. So get out of your comfort zone. Does that advice? That self offers us, is that helpful? Sometimes it is, but it's, it's too many eggs in the one basket it's always get out of your comfort zone or punch fear in the face. What about the, I think this kind of goes back to our conversation about the sleeper effect. It's allowing there to be seasons in our, in our day, like rhythms there's rhythms in our day, in our week, in our month, in our year. Allowing ourselves to be rhythmic, to be seasonal, to understand that sometimes you need to get outta your comfort zone and sometimes you need to find what feels good.

25:04

Now we're moving on to type nine. And in this clip, we're talking with Sarah Microtel, This clip comes from season two, episode nine, freedom and stoicism as an Enneagram nine. With Sarah Microtel and Sarah practices, this ancient art of solecism. And so here, she's explaining a little bit more about stoic philosophy, and then she wraps it up with this excellent example of how she has learned to recognize her anger as an Enneagram nine, because. That can be incredibly difficult for nines. And then to tap into that anger as energy to puzzle through a really frustrating moment. So she talks about kind of like. Noticing it becoming aware of it and then transforming it into the energy she needed to do something that was really frustrating. So I really hope you love this story and that you will listen to the full episode. So here is Sarah.

Sarah: 25:53

Well, I think, you know, us nines generally like to go with the flow, that's kind of our ethos and that's a big part of this philosophy, but it also recognizes that that's not easy for. A lot of people and even nines. I mean, everyone, like given a certain situation, like we're going to get upset or, or like misinterpret something and like take things to heart and. Something else I'll add right now is what I found fascinating about stoicism is that like modern cognitive behavioral therapy has its roots in stoicism. Like they were doing therapy 2300 years ago. That's very similar to what we're doing these days. And sadly, like, we kind of, it got lost through the ages for like a little bit and then started to come back. Um, and it's making like a resurgence now, I think, which I'm very happy about, but. Two of like the core principles are, some things are up to us and other things are not, which sounds very basic, but we can explore what that means. And then the other one is it's not things that upset us, but what we make them. Mean, so the first one that I just mentioned, um, some things are up to us and other things are not means. Some things are in our control and some things are not, but most things are not in our control, but most human suffering. And this is where like Buddhism and stoicism kind of relate a little bit. We think that we have more control over things than we do. And we get twist up and knots and like really angry and resentful about the things that we don't control in any gram ones. like, I think you above all can relate to this. And stoicism would say, let's get really clear on what actually is in your control. Let's be mindful of this. And when we recognize what's not in our control, We have to let it go. And that doesn't mean we give up on life, like accepting is accepting reality for what it is, and then like being calm about it and approaching what you wanna do next from a calm frame of mind, because when people react out of anger, they SDO. Make wise choices, cuz our focus just narrows so much. So what the stoic are saying is like, be clear what's in your control and then you can take the next step and they were all about taking action to improve society. I think, you know, S Stokes today would definitely be involved in social justice. The ancient Stoics were involved in politics. They were poets. They were very much involved in society, but they did it from a frame of. This is what I control. So this is what I'm gonna do, cuz this is actually an action that I can take.

Steph: 28:51

Yeah, that is really cool. And I, I do see the overlap there with type ones, but all of us really, you know, we all have such a hard time. I think detaching from those things, and getting really confused about what is, and isn't in our control. That is like the hardest part,

Sarah: 29:11

Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, well, so would say the only things that are in are control are, are opinions about things like our thoughts, our feelings, and the actions that we decide to take. I can't control what you think about me. I can't control like the weather. Obviously. I can't even control my own body because if I got sick tomorrow, if I got hit by a car tomorrow, that's out of my control, but I can control. How I decide to show up in life, how I treat other people. Um, and like one of the biggest things is to live a life of excellent character. So just being mindful of like, they have four Cardinal virtues, justice, wisdom, courage, and moderation. And when we say justice, it's not just justice. As we know it today, justice also means kindness. So getting justice for people is also like being kind to others and like fighting for justice, fighting out of love rather than anger or.

Steph: 30:17

Yeah. Yeah. That's so fascinating that you were able to kind of find this and connect with it. And I'm curious how things have changed for you since you started kind of applying this in your daily.

Sarah: 30:31

I find that the stoicism and the Enneagram have certain overlaps. And I think what, that's why I'm so fascinated by both, cuz they're both very much into observation, like self observation and self awareness. And I think. You know, a lot of nines are not aware of their anger and think they're the most laid back people in the world. And I think we often are, but I would have to say that since I've been practicing stoicism where it's all about like taking a pause before reacting and like being mindful of how you're feeling in the moment, um, I can recognize when I'm angry, now and.

Steph: 31:16

yeah.

Sarah: 31:17

So, yeah, so it's not, definitely not just engram once, as you mentioned, and like, I'll give an example. Um, uh, the other day I was in the airport in Amsterdam and I felt like I was in this. Nightmare where you're walking down a hall and you can't escape because I was trying to get out and I'm following the exit signs. And then all of a sudden they disappear and I turn around and the signs are going the other way. And then I kept like zigzag and I'm like, how did I get outta this airport? And I felt this like, Rage swell up inside of me, which is not like a feeling that I'm used to, but I was like, whoa, I feel like electric. This is how some people feel all the time. Like it was such a strange energy to me. And I was mindful. Like I am irrationally angry right now. like, I just observing myself. Like, I should not be this mad over this, this thing, but the Stoics would say. Fight. It just like observe what's going on. Um, so I'm like, all right, I know that this feeling is going to pass. And then I started to think about like, well, when else have I felt this energy in like a positive way? Like, how can I transform this energy? And I was just thinking of a time when I had like a really great run and was had that forward momentum. And I was like, all right, I'm gonna use this energy to get out of here. And like just started to channel it into excitement for my trip, cuz I had just arrived in, um, the Netherlands. Um, so that's just. One example of stoic mindfulness is all right. I don't wanna feel this feeling. I'm not gonna shove it away. I'm just gonna be, be with it. And then I know I'm gonna move past it.

33:04

And then our next clip, we have another Enneagram nine, but Sarah was a self preservation nine, and now we have a sexual nine. So you'll hear again, a little bit of the difference between these two subtypes. And this clip, I'm talking with Stephanie Woodward, and this is from the episode, season two episode 19. Scaling back from overworking and finding purpose as an Enneagram nine, stephanie is an author, coach and leadership consultant who can sometimes be misunderstood as a different type. However, she describes in detail why type nine clicked with her and how she knew she was a nine. And I think this is really important because. A lot of the time when we hear about type nines, there's this stereotype about not having enough energy. And you'll hear from Stephanie a story that clearly wasn't the case, but there was something else that tipped her off that she's actually a nine and not a type three, which was the other type that she was kind of questioning. So here's Stephanie Woodward.

Stephanie Woodward: 33:57

I am a one to one nine. So for me, that I don't think it would be surprising for anyone who knows the engram today, those, those relationships were so important led to me studying psychology in undergrad because I just, The dynamics of people and how, uh, personalities were formed. That was such a passion area of mine. Uh, then did a master's degree in communications. So you bring those two things together and I was all about how do people relate to one another? How do people talk to one another? And that it's no surprise to me that now I find myself. in leadership development and leadership coaching, doing work around the Enneagram personality profiling, um, all kind work life balance and those topics. And that, um, is a bit of a spoiler for the book. It's all about work life balance, and that has become a really big passion topic for me right now. And something that I have lived through my journey of kind of chronic workaholism and now really helping. Helped myself and working with my clients to look at whole life fulfillment and what does it look like to be fulfilled and to design a life that you feel fulfilled across every area of your life, professional and personal. So that's a little bit about me.

Steph Barron Hall: 35:11

Okay. I love it and I think you've given us a few different things that I'm excited to. Dig into a little bit more, but one thing that you mentioned is that chronic work hall aspect, and I think a lot of the time we don't associate that with type nine. However, and I'm not sure if this is where it's related for you, but I've definitely seen a lot of nines, the defense mechanism of marketization come out in work alcoholism. And so it's just another way of like kind of tuning out what's actually happening for you. Um, And so I could see how that could happen for a nine. Um, but I'm curious for you, how do those two things play together? Being a type nine and the work hall aspect?

Stephanie Woodward: 35:54

I think you just said something really fascinating to me to say that the way I would zone out to myself was through hyper productivity and do, do, do, produce, produce, produce. When I was first introduced to the Enneagram, I started, I. Got my report, I fell in love with it and I started reading everything I could about it. And when I read the different types, I really thought maybe they've mistyped me because I see a lot of three in myself, to be honest with you. And everybody I meet says, Oh, you must be a three. You must be a three. And so I think that's really interesting that outwardly, my outward behavior might present. uh, very stereotypically three, but what's going on inside is exactly what you just talked about. I am zoning out from all everything else, ignoring my own needs, ignoring, um, and not really knowing what they are. I, I, I wasn't even deliberately or consciously ignoring them. It was more that they just didn't exist, which is classic. Self for getting nine and showing up to please others to, um, take in perspectives of others and produce, produce, produce. So I, I would say those two are, those two things are very, very connected.

Steph Barron Hall: 37:00

Yeah. So when people say from the outside, Oh, you seem like a three. You must be a three, what do you know about yourself that other people aren't seeing?

Stephanie Woodward: 37:09

Hmm. Uh, this is a great question. What, what are other people's, What am I, what are other people not seeing in me? Um, I think the complete, um, Lack of knowing myself back in the day, now that I've done a lot of this work, now that I've done a lot of personal development, I know myself at such a deeper level, and a lot of that is, is thanks to the Enneagram and also work I had done prior to that, but people probably thought, Oh, Stephanie wants to achieve that goal. Stephanie has chosen. That goal and is now, uh, really successfully chasing after it. She's striving, climbing, chasing in service of something that is very well thought through and something she chose. And quite the opposite. I was like, Well, if this important person has put this in front of me, I'm not gonna check in with myself. Like, this is the thing I'm supposed to do, so I'm just gonna do it. And I found myself again, climbing, producing, achieving. Someone else's dream, someone else's goals. So to me, that was the real difference. It wasn't me saying that's what I want, and that's until now, but I'm talking 10, 15 years ago, I wasn't able to say, That's what I want and I'm gonna, and I'm gonna go after it. The goals were all other people's, and so I was again, fully asleep to myself, but nobody would've known that. They would've looked at me and thought, that's a very reasonable goal. Other people would've wanted what I was achieving. So it seemed reasonable to them, and it seemed like, yeah, she's got a realistic goal.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:40

Right. And also when you are that asleep to yourself, you don't even know it. Like you don't even know that you're chasing somebody else's goal. You're like, I'm just, everyone's just floating through life like this.

Stephanie Woodward: 38:49

That's right, until you suddenly get a rude awakening. And for me, and that's a big part of what the book was all about, it took me really having some big, uh, adrenal crashes in my life. So some big health issues to suddenly. I, and I laughed cause I'm like, Oh, I actually did kind of fall asleep. I ended up like semi-conscious, really unwell at one point in my life, um, because I had completely gone to sleep to those needs and was working at a very unsustainable pace. And it was that it took that for me to really say, You know what? I don't think this is working for me. Like, I think I maybe I think I might be out of alignment and may need to check in with myself to see what it is I really want. But that's what it took for me to get a big wake up call many, many, many years ago.

39:34

So last but not least we have type one. So I'm talking with Liz Golding. This clip comes from season two, episode one, finding purpose as an Enneagram one with Liz Golding and. Throughout this clip, we're talking a little bit about her subtype, which is self preservation one, and how that shaped the way she sees type one, as well as some of her type one tendencies and the growth work that she's done to become more optimistic, self compassionate. And open-minded. I have worked as a client of most of the coaches on this episode. And with Liz, I did a lot of work around strengths and like understanding what are my strengths and kind of stepping out of the typical Enneagram perspective, which is like looking a lot more at the things that I need to improve or the blind spots. So, this was just a great episode and a great way to hear from a one who sent a lot of her own growth work And has developed in a lot of ways, this perspective of being really open-handed with life. So here is Liz scolding.

Liz Goulding: 40:32

I think, adding the self-preservation aspect to it has been really helpful for me, in that, you know, the inner critic or, or the critic is focused more inward than it is out on other people. I, I mean, I would say that's true. And I've been thinking a lot about this kind of in preparation for the podcast. maybe it would surprise no one out there to learn that an Enneagram one wanted to do a good job

Steph Barron Hall: 41:02

but

Liz Goulding: 41:02

as a podcast guest, but I think it, for me, it's less, of a constant voice and there's just this feeling of like, oh, you could be doing a better job. Like, just this nebulous feeling that I could be better than I am. so I, I really resonate. I don't always feel the need to be right, but I do want to be good. and not to win an award. It's not about other people, you know, patting me on the head and being like, wow, you're so good. You did such a good job. It's more like I wanna, contribute to the world and and leave things a little better than I found them. I would like to be a net benefit to society at whole. And so, but that kind of can get really, I can get really down in the weeds on what does that mean day in and day out for how I'm supposed to live. so like what's my highest and best use as a human and that's a lot of pressure to put on yourself. I definitely, I definitely feel it, in that. And then I feel it, I mean, in little ways I was reflecting about how, like control. I, I definitely have some control issues. Like my husband he'll reheat something in the oven and I'm like, oh, what'd you set the oven at? And he'll be like 325 And in my head I'm like, that's not the right thing.

Steph Barron Hall: 42:27

temperature".

Liz Goulding: 42:28

No. and, and maybe even it's like, okay, it's fine, but it could be better. And after about five minutes, I'm like, I'm just gonna go over there and adjust it.

Steph Barron Hall: 42:36

mm-hmm

Liz Goulding: 42:37

um, so

Steph Barron Hall: 42:38

Just gonna help him out a little bit".[Laughs]

Liz Goulding: 42:40

little, just little, little things like that. And then I definitely have, you know, maybe we'll talk about this more, but as a coach, I've really, it's really pushed me to grow as a person. but I have a lot of opinions about things and I, and I do think if I'm not careful, I'll just kind of spew them out into the world and that's not always. Super helpful.

Steph Barron Hall: 43:04

I'm curious about something you said earlier too with like, obviously there's all this growth and development. And I'm really curious to hear how a coach now, cuz obviously

Liz Goulding: 43:16

well,

Steph Barron Hall: 43:17

some of that growth work, but as a coach now, how, how is it for you a One also to be like,"okay, well I'm leaving this thought or this opinion at the door" and like how do you determine what to bring in and what to not?

Liz Goulding: 43:30

that's such a good question I think something I didn't know about coaching before that I now understand but I'm still learning to implement And it's all the things we talk about with our clients We are doing ourselves or need to be.

Steph Barron Hall: 43:46

yeah.

Liz Goulding: 43:48

it's sort of a it's not a practice what you preach thing per se but it's that like you need to embody those things so you can be present and truly hear your clients and not have your own stuff clouding your head And learning what actually helps people change It's just funny I mean I think a lot of you don't have to be a one to bring some one energy to things and it's that kind of I think a lot of people perceive ones as there's like a sharpness around them And they're it's kind of that when you wa you're watching somebody else with a problem and in your head you're like well I know what you need to do to fix it You just need to do X Y Z That is just not the way to help people change turns out And and the emotional work on a coach's end to let people go at their own pace and to truly leave your agenda at the door is very challenging So you know coaches ask a lot of questions but it's not just that it's that you can't have an agenda about where you're trying to take the client with the questions So sometimes I have to think like do I already know where I'm trying to get this conversation to end And if I do like I'm leading the client and I need to take a step back But when I can step into that space where I'm truly open to whatever possibilities or options are available to us in the conversation it's really fun And it's really neat to be surprised by where we end up So like you know a client whatever the focus they might bring for the conversation if I can inhabit this place of like wow I don't know where we're gonna go with this But in 45 minutes we're gonna find out it's it's really it can be really exciting and letting the client partnering with the client as they find their own way It does it really does require me to take a step back from maybe some of my traditional ways of thinking or doing

Steph Barron Hall: 46:05

yeah. Yeah. That makes so much sense because I think one of the things I often suggest for Ones, like when I'm teaching workshops or whatever, is like, rather than making a statement, like saying"that's inaccurate","that's accurate", et cetera, to ask a question and inherently, that's what you have to do as a coach and to really exercise, curiosity, and find everything to be very open-ended. That seems actually like really stretching, but in a really healthy way. And I'm curious if it felt stretching at the beginning.

Liz Goulding: 46:41

Honestly it felt like a relief

Steph Barron Hall: 46:43

Mm mm-hmm mm-hmm

Liz Goulding: 46:44

When I learned that I not only didn't have to be the expert but was not the expert that was not my role literally remember feeling like the load got lighter cuz I don't feel like I'm an expert in anything Which you know that maybe makes sense being a One But it's it's more like I'm a partner in helping the client really discern what they want and need and then helping them take steps to get there Yeah, it's it kind of was like oh there's no I don't have to be perfect I can't be perfect here

Steph Barron Hall: 47:26

Mm-hmm

Liz Goulding: 47:27

not even really a word that makes sense And so I I found that really liberating And then I think I just really got on board with the idea of like what are the best practices around helping people change or helping people get things done or helping people make those mindset shifts that they need to make

Steph Barron Hall: 47:47

Mm-hmm

Liz Goulding: 47:49

maybe I did kind of tie back into some one energy there just kind of realizing like this is actually the best way to help people get results It feels hard and it it almost feels counterintuitive when you're sitting When you're sitting in a space with someone and they're having a hard time figuring out what to do or they're having a hard time figuring out why they're not doing certain things but knowing that like sitting with them in the middle of that and not pushing them any further or faster than they really want to go

Steph Barron Hall: 48:22

mm-hmm Yeah

Liz Goulding: 48:23

ready or are able to go that that's actually the best practice for long term results So that was really helpful like knowing like okay this is actually not the right thing to do but like I'm doing the best I can do by doing it this way

Steph Barron Hall: 48:43

Yeah. that makes sense. A common critique of the Enneagram is how it seems somewhat negative maybe. And it was a big adjustment for me, to work with you to actually like, be focused on strengths because when I focus on strengths, then I'm like,"okay, well, let's hurry through this part and let's get to the weaknesses." So I'm wondering

Liz Goulding: 49:04

wondering

Steph Barron Hall: 49:04

if you could talk a little bit about this tool strengths profile that you use and like how you use that to help people change.

Liz Goulding: 49:14

Yeah. I'd love to. because I mean, a minute ago I told you, I consider myself in many ways to be a pessimist. I'm, almost like a recovering pessimist or recovering cynic. Like I've come to looking on the, it's not even about looking on the bright side, but I've come to this strengths perspective and, things that are kind of more connected to positive psychology later in my life. I say all that for anybody out there who might be about to roll their eyes at, you know, the idea of like focusing on what's good and what's working.

Steph Barron Hall: 49:47

Mm-hmm

Liz Goulding: 49:50

strengths perspective, it is just that like, let's look at what you're good at. and from, this model, when we talk about strengths, we're talking about things you're good at, but also find energizing. And I think that is the piece that makes it extra interesting. because I think a lot of people spend their, you know, they go about their day and at the end of the day, they're exhausted and they're not, they have some ideas why, but this is just a different lens to be looking at what you're doing. And I think it can be really encouraging to be like, oh, there is work that I do. Or things that I do that is energizing, and not everything is drudgery. and so, As a coach, it's also a really nice way to affirm clients without blowing smoke. a big difference between affirming and cheerleading cheerleading. We've all experienced it. It's that very vague. Oh yeah, you're doing so good. Keep it up. And that, falls very, flat I receive that very poorly. It feels hollow to me, but a strength is a specific word

Steph Barron Hall: 51:01

Mm-hmm

Liz Goulding: 51:02

and there's a lot of meaning behind that. And I think it helps people feel seen. and I watch people when we do sessions really open up about themselves. in a way that's not showy. Cause I think a lot of people are also, especially if they have humility as a strength. you know, there's this idea that talking about ourselves in any capacity is bragging. And I don't see it that way. I do think, There's benefit to learning, to look at what you are good at. So you can do more of it. It's not about pretending you don't have weaknesses, but You're probably never, not never. You are way less likely to bring your weaknesses up to strengths,

Steph Barron Hall: 51:48

Yeah.

Liz Goulding: 51:49

Yeah. Mm-hmm.Yeah but you can spend a little energy on your strengths and learn to use them better. And I think that's also something that was very interesting to me. Strengths are what we're good at and what we find energizing. So I think about them as our, they're our big tools, but because they're our big tools, sometimes we like to get'em out and swing'em around indiscriminately. and so sometimes people need to learn to use their strengths less. And when I heard that for the first time, I was like, oh, that's interesting. That's so much more interesting than just like strengths are what you're good at. They make you special. Yay. like for example, humor is my top. strength I love to laugh. I love to make jokes. I mean, I can find a joke in almost everything

Steph Barron Hall: 52:34

mm-hmm

Liz Goulding: 52:36

that's not always appropriate, like in coaching,

Steph Barron Hall: 52:39

yeah.

Liz Goulding: 52:39

right. Sometimes a joke or something light can be nice. but sometimes I need to know to hold that back. And so, it's actually been really illuminating for me in terms of bringing in some other strengths and reading the room emotionally, what does this other person need? are they on humor? You know? And, adjusting that accordingly.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:06

Yeah. Can um, I ask you what is a strength that you've used this week, of yours? I know humor. What else?

Liz Goulding: 53:14

mission is really important to me.

Steph Barron Hall: 53:16

Mm-hmm

Liz Goulding: 53:17

I'm always trying to stay connected to, I need to feel connected to my purpose I actually literally just redid my strengths assessment today. I hadn't done it in 18 months. You wanna talk about preparing? I was like, I feel like it's time. You know, growth is also on there for me. and I, in my work, both as a coach and also someone who's self-employed now and, never had been before this,

Steph Barron Hall: 53:47

Mm-hmm

Liz Goulding: 53:48

feel like I'm growing every week. and sometimes that growth is exhilarating and sometimes it's very painful. and this week has been, it's been a mix, but I try to remember that, like, when I'm really uncomfortable, it is because I'm stepping out into new things. and you know, before I started doing this, I didn't really step out into the unknown. Like I only did things if I knew I could do them, like I already was super confident I would achieve them. So I never really stretched myself. And so I've, been stretching myself enormously the last couple years. And it's I think I've surprised myself in a lot of ways, things I wasn't sure I could do. I'm doing, and that is a new gear for me and a new way of being, and seeing myself. And it's really cool. but it comes at great cost. I mean, without you have to step out into the unknown and there are lots of aspects about this work or, owning a business that they may not work out. And I had to accept that, and I decided though, at the very beginning, I decided I wanna give this my best shot. And if it doesn't work out someday, I can walk away knowing that I gave it my all that I didn't halfass it, frankly that I wasn't like one foot in one foot out that I, really committed. And I tried and that's all I could. do

Steph Barron Hall: 55:23

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I can see that too. It's just like consistently showing up and risking, not like doing it right. Sometimes because you're learning and growing and all of that stuff. Yeah. And, and owning a business is and running a small business, especially like, I'd say even the first few years it's like inherently stretching and stressful and growing, if you let it be.

Liz Goulding: 55:53

Well, and there's no roadmap.

Steph Barron Hall: 55:54

right

Liz Goulding: 55:55

you know, there's always this, and I hear it from other people that are new to business too. This, desire of like, can someone just tell me what to do, please? someone just tell me like, just give me the checklist.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:07

Yep

Liz Goulding: 56:07

good. I can follow a checklist. It's almost that whole, what makes somebody a good student? You gotta relearn everything to run a business.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:17

Yep.

Liz Goulding: 56:18

and that's an interesting shift for sure.

Steph Barron Hall: 56:26

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify