Tapping Into Deep Emotion as an Enneagram 7 with Camille Logan, LCMHC

[00:00:00] Steph Barron Hall: Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in real life. A podcast that will help you go beyond Enneagram theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Baron hall, creator of Nine Types Co on Instagram, author of the Enneagram in love, accredited Enneagram professional, and ennea-curious human, just like you be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram and your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now onto the show.

[00:00:38] We'll come back to the Enneagram in Real Life podcast. I am so excited about today's episode. And if you're thinking I sound a little bit like a broken record, saying that every single week it's because it's true. I have really just been enjoying one, recording all of these episodes has been such an incredible experience because I feel so lucky and so fortunate to be able to have these conversations with all of these incredible guests. And also, I love every single conversation.

[00:01:07] I think every episode is my favorite. And then the next one comes up and I'm like, “oh, I cannot wait for everyone to hear this.” So I really hope that you are loving the podcast as much as I am, and that you're really getting a lot of value from it. I think, the thing I love so much about podcasts is just the ability to hear from other people from their perspectives and to be able to experience, like today we're going to talk to a type seven, and you're getting to hear what it's really like to be a type seven in this specific sphere. And so I think that's really powerful and I am just so thrilled that I get to come back every week and share these episodes with you. So,

[00:01:52] Today we have Camille Logan on the show and Camille is so fantastic. She is an Enneagram Seven. And you're going to hear that right away during our conversation. And Camille is also a therapist. And one of the reasons I really wanted to have Camille on the show is because I listen to her podcast, Enneagram for the Culture, which is co-hosted by Kimberly Reese, who will be on the show very soon.

[00:02:20] And, it was just so clear to me how thoughtful and how thoughtful and how thorough these two women were when they were talking about each of the types and that comes across as well in this conversation, you can hear Camille's experience both as a therapist and doing her own inner work and her own perspective on the Enneagram and her type. And I just think that there's something really incredible about being with somebody who isgoing through that process and doing their work. And I think Camille really shows a different side to the type seven than what we normally hear. And I just so appreciate that.

[00:03:01] So now that you have a little bit of my perspective, my intro, I want to tell you a little bit about Camille. Camille Logan is a licensed clinical mental health clinician who co owns a private practice called the KC Collective in Raleigh, North Carolina. She received both her undergraduate degree in psychology and her master's degree with the focus in counseling from the University of Florida.

[00:03:22] She enjoys working with adolescents, college students, and adults on a range of issues, but primarily around helping people untangle limiting beliefs, undo unhelpful patterns, and heal from hurtful experiences, to help build a healthier narrative that makes room for healing, connection, and personal freedom.

[00:03:39] The issues that a majority of our clients seek her out for are surrounding areas of depression, anxiety, life transitions, communication, body image, race, and identity. She's inspired by her client's life stories of hope, resilience, and courage. And her work and what she chooses to practice personally, she's passionate about self care, emotional intelligence, using the Enneagram as a tool of self discovery, assertiveness, social justice, and the value of connection and vulnerability. And that all comes through in this episode today. So you're going to love Camille. And I'm so excited to share this with you. So without further ado, here's Camille, Logan.

[00:04:22] Before we get into today's episode, I want to talk to you about subtypes. Now, Subtypes have been transformational in my own Enneagram journey, and they've also been so incredibly helpful for my clients and my coursestudents, and even some of the teams that I've worked with. So with that said, I want you to head over to the show notes or go to Ninetypes.co/subtypes and download my free subtype guide. You'll get a breakdown of what the whole word means, the entire concept, all 27 subtypes, and you will unlock this new understanding of yourself and the people around you, and you'll have a new way to apply the Enneagram in your daily life.

[00:05:03] So again, head to ninetypes.co/subtypes, or check out that link in the show notes to learn more. Enjoy.

[00:05:12] Steph Barron Hall: Okay. Well, Camille, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited that you're here.

[00:05:19] Camille Logan: Hi. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. This is gonna be fun and a good conversation. 

[00:05:24] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Um, well, I first discovered you because of your podcast actually. So, Enneagram for the culture.

[00:05:33] Camille Logan: That's correct! Enneagram for the culture. Um, yeah, that's so correct.

[00:05:37] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, I love it. And I think I really appreciate how you and your co-host Kim, talk about the numbers, your approach to it, and everything.

[00:05:47] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. How has it been with your podcast so far?

[00:05:51] Camille Logan: It's been good. We have been thinking about doing this for a while, probably around a year and a half. Kim is a colleague and a friend of mine, and I was actually the one that brought the Enneagram to her about like five or six years ago. And she, eventually got into it and started using it. And then Kim is just a really great visionary.

[00:06:16] Camille Logan: She, um, she's a three and so she's always— She's just naturally, she can like scale things up and she can, see where something can grow and be better. And so she very much from, about a year ago was like, “Hey, I think that we should do a podcast or we should be doing workshops, or we should be”, you know, “we could do stuff with this because, I think that we can, and I think that we should”, and part of that conversation was— so we're two black women

[00:06:45] Camille Logan: And, what we were finding in the Enneagram world was that there wasn't a lot of Black people talking about the Enneagram, professionally as the experts in the room. And then also there wasn't a lot of people that knew about the Enneagram, like when I would bring it to clients, I'm a therapist. There would be a lot of my black clients would be like, “I don't know what you're talking about”, but my white clients would be like, “oh yeah, I know all about that.”

[00:07:08] Camille Logan: Um, and so, we started to notice. And so Kim, again, in her very natural gift was able to really start to say, like, “we should start to do something about this and do something”. And so it took me a while to get on board, because, I in my growth, I have had to realize that while I can do a lot of things, I want to make sure

[00:07:37] Camille Logan: it's something that I'm gonna stick with. And it's something that I want to do, and not have like 20, you know, plates spinning,when it comes to career. And so it took me a little bit to get on board of if I wanted to do it. And then I eventually was like, “yeah, I think, I think this would be good.”

[00:07:53] Camille Logan: And I made the caveat with her— I had two caveats was one. It still, it always needs to be fun. Um, and two, we cannot lose our friendship. And so if those two things could be guaranteed— and I think three kind of was like, we will reassess like each year, that if I do wanna back out or if I am getting bored with it, or I'm not feeling anymore that we can, like, there's an exit strategy that can happen here. So I'm not locked into this forever and ever. So we kind of agreed on those terms. And, so we started doing the podcast and so we started recording last fall and then we started, we released it February 2022.

[00:08:32] Camille Logan: And it's been fun. It's been fun to release each episode and, get to interact with people that have been, that are excited about it and new people that have found us. And then it's been fun lately to kind of like get to meet you and get to talk with other people that we have, like for a long time respected and just enjoy and

[00:08:54] Camille Logan: that's been fun too, and it's been good. And then, in my nature, wanting to make sure that we like celebrate things, I was like, we need to celebrate the end of season one. And so coming up in a month, me and her are gonna go away,and celebrate that we finish season one and then start planning season two and get to connect on a friendship basis too. So I'm really excited for that trip as well. So to answer your question, the podcast has been going well.

[00:09:22] Steph Barron Hall: That is so fun. And I love— I think that people who are like, who know the Enneagram, even though you haven't said your type yet, they're like, “Hmm, what type is Camille?”

[00:09:32] Camille Logan: I am a seven. Yep. Some clues in all of that was “fun”, “celebration”, Uh, “not wanting to do too many things”, “not wanting to get bored”, uh, “wanting to travel and go on a trip together”. Um, so all of that. Yeah, those are, those are sort of the clues. If you, if you kind of did guess Seven, then Yes. You were correct.

[00:09:54] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. And I, you know, I really appreciate that because, you know, as you know, Kim says on your podcast too, that she's a Three. And so, You know, we need that. We need that little like person, who's gonna be like, “we are gonna have fun. We are gonna celebrate this”. Like, “we are gonna take a breather and we're gonna like have a little party and then, you know, get back to work”.

[00:10:14] Camille Logan: “and then jump back into the work.” And she's, she's been wonderful at really jumping into that. She almost sometimes is more of the fun police, where she's like, “Nope, we gotta, you gotta keep it fun! We gotta keep fun.” Like, she's really leaned into that and I'm thankful that she has, and it's been fun working with her on it.

[00:10:30] Camille Logan: We both, you know, with Threes and Sevens, we both move quickly. And so we can, we think and synthesize information pretty quickly and we are— we go. And so we work really well together cuz it's a similar work style. So that's been really nice to have her, just that we don't, we're not in conflict in the way that we work.

[00:10:57] Steph Barron Hall: Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. And I could see how with like. sometimes having, you know, the different perspectives is really helpful. Like somebody who's you know, going fast and somebody who's like, “whoa, wait, let's like build the scaffolding here”. But at other times it can really cause some tension. So.

[00:11:14] Camille Logan: Yeah, it can. It can, cuz it feels like you're kind of like a push and pull and it's nice that we're both sort of on that same speed. And then we also we're, you know, we both are therapists, so I— and not that therapists own communication, but we are good at communication. And so, like even you heard, I was like, “this is what I really wanna make sure happens if we do the podcast.”

[00:11:38] Camille Logan: And this is— we sort of have checks and balances where, “Hey, how are you doing? How are you feeling about this? What do you think about this decision?” Like we really check in with each other a lot, just to kind of make sure that we're all doing, that we're both doing okay.

[00:11:51] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's so, so helpful. So how did you first discover the Enneagram?

[00:11:58] Camille Logan: Yeah. So, I first discovered the Enneagram because my friends started talking about it and I don't know who in my friend group got it first, but somebody got ahold of it and then like very common, It kind of spread like wildfire. Everyone started talking about it in my friend group. Everybody was asking what number you are and did you do this?

[00:12:20] Camille Logan: And did you read this book? And it kind of like got— It was like a big topic, a conversation in my friend group. And I was not on the ground floor of that. And so they brought it to me and they very much were like, “oh, Camille, you're a seven.” Like without me. You know, looking at it. And so they did that to me and I was kinda like, “I don't know about this, you know, you can't tell me what I am.”

[00:12:41] Camille Logan: And then immediately when I read it, I was like, okay, yeah, this is me. Um, I didn't even, I don't even think I looked at any other numbers. And I think that me and Kim talk about this, on the podcast that sometimes some numbers are kind of known for having a hard time knowing, like finding their number. I think Nines and Sixes usually have a little bit of a tricky time and I think that sevens usually are pretty easy. Aand I have found that with my clients and with friends and then with myself that, yeah, it's like,”yeah, that's me.” So it was like that for me really quickly, I was like, “okay, yeah”

[00:13:13] Camille Logan: And then I, when I had learned about it, I was actually going through a breakup. The season of, you know, you think the breakup's just like one conversation, but it's a, you know, it's a season. And so I was in the season of a breakup. And so it kind of was a perfect time, you know, you're kind of thinking and self— you know, you're kind of thinking about yourself and thinking about relationships and all that stuff.

[00:13:35] Camille Logan: So it kind of fit into my life story a little bit at that time, that life season, And then I started, I jumped in and I, you know, went down the rabbit hole. That is the Enneagram. And, then I started realizing I can use it professionally. And so I started doing that as well and then started telling everybody about it.

[00:13:53] Camille Logan: And so that was about—that was about, okay. So actually, it was about like four years ago. And then, so then I probably brought it to Kim that same year, so yeah. So four years ago, mm-hmm yeah.

[00:14:09] Steph Barron Hall: How do you see that— Because you've mentioned a couple times that you use it with your clients in therapy. How do you see that blending in really well? And what does that look like for you?

[00:14:19] Camille Logan: Yeah, it blends in really well. Um, how do I see it blending in? So one, um, you know, therapy in and of itself, right? We're looking at growing and healing and understanding ourselves and understanding why we do certain things and how to not do certain things and how to interact with people and how to communicate with people,

[00:14:40] Camille Logan: in relationships and that's all of the things that theri helps us to do. Right. So, it really blends in perfectly with what clients are coming in for whatever the issue might be.And so in and of itself, it works and then I use it two ways. So one way that I use it is I use it just for myself.

[00:15:01] Camille Logan: Um, well then three ways, I use it just for myself as a clinician. How can I check my Seven-ness to not get in the way. Aytime you're working with a therapist as, and as a therapist, we are always trying to leave ourself out of it. It is not what I think you should do. It is not what I would do. It is not how I feel about this situation.

[00:15:24] Camille Logan: It's all about the client. And so, we're constantly doing that to make sure that we're not getting in the way. And so the Enneagram gives me language of making sure that my Seven-ness, this isn't getting in the way. That I'm not, that I'm not jumping out of sadness too quickly, that I'm not trying to reframe every single thing that my client is saying.

[00:15:46] Camille Logan: That I'm not uncomfortable when there's silence. Like those sort of things that I have to make sure that I'm not bringing into the room, is helpful for me. The other thing that— the other way that I use it is with clients. So the one way I use it is to say I will implicitly— So in my own head, as a client is talking, I will sort of be kind of not typing them, but I'm kind of just categorizing where they probably fall.

[00:16:16] Camille Logan: And so, especially with the triads, so I'll be able to kind of say, “okay, this sounds like the heart triad somewhere in there”, that's where this client is living. And so then I know that yeah, shame is gonna be a factor in this person's life and image and how they're perceived by others. And, and so that's gonna give me, direction or just understanding and compassion about why this client is, is stuck in a certain way.

[00:16:39] Camille Logan: I might even, even if I'm not correct on the number,I just use it for my own stuff of knowing that if someone's talking about analysis paralysis, for whatever number they are, and they're talking about stuckness and they're talking about not knowing how to make a decision that I just know in my head,

[00:17:00] Camille Logan: “Oh, okay. That sounds like what I would do with a five and with a five, what I would do with a five is we would talk about getting into our body and we would talk about like, how do we like assert ourselves? And like, how do I move?” And whether or not this client is a five or not. That's still a intervention that I would use with someone that's talking about analysis paralysis, which is something that five's talking about.

[00:17:19] Camille Logan: So that's one way that I use it. So without the client kind of knowing, it's basically in my head. The other way that I use it is specifically, explicitly with a client and I will say, “Hey, do you know your Enneagram number? Yes or no?” “No.” “Do you wanna look into it? Let's do a, let's do a whole typing session. Let's figure it out. Let's work on this together.” And we actually really bring it into the room or a client might come in and say, “Yes. I know my Enneagram number. I know that language, let's work with it.” and then we go from there. So that is how I use it with Therapy

[00:17:50] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. I love that. It it's so helpful too, because, you know, I've heard, I love the map analogy for the Enneagram. Like it's like a map to, you know, what's really happening under the surface. And I was even just talking with a coach the other day. And I've, I've heard this from other therapists who use the Enneagarm too, where it's like, once you know that the client's type, then you it's just like, “oh, okay!” Like everything becomes really clear. Not that you know, everything possible about them, but you can understand more of the undercurrent of the motivation.

[00:18:22] Camille Logan: Yes, absolutely. And it really gets you there really quickly and easily and easily mm-hmm. Absolutely, it's really helpful in therapy for sure. It sort of just opens up a whole, it's just like, when we talk about it with our friends, right? And someone tells us like, “oh, I'm an eight” and you kind of are like, “ohhhhh, like, okay.”

[00:18:41] Camille Logan: You know like, “okay, I got it. Now, I understand what motivates you. I understand what you're afraid of. I understand what your desires are. I understand what your strengths are. Like, it sort of opens all of that up. And so it's the same thing with clients that it's like, “ohhhh,

[00:18:55] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah

[00:18:55] Camille Logan: That's why that thing was really painful because that was really pushing on, a core fear of yours, so that makes total sense.”

[00:19:04] Steph Barron Hall: yeah, yeah. And I think too, and I always talk about this when I'm working with teams, is that like what we're talking about here too, is that understanding that I have my own motivation and then you have your own motivation. Right? So like just automatically there, there starts to be that loosening of, you know, where we're standing and how we're seeing things, because we're automatically able to assume, “okay you're seeing it differently than I would.”

[00:19:29] Camille Logan: And the way that you're seeing it, isn't bad. That's one of my favorite things about the Enneagram is that they're all, um, none are better or worse or anything. They all have their positives and negatives, and they're ways that they're really healthy and the ways that it can get really tricky.

[00:19:43] Camille Logan: And so, being able to kind of like, just know that like, “okay, you're just, you're just looking at this issue from a different vantage point. It's not a bad vantage point. It's just a different vantage point.” And so, how do I step into your shoes and see like, “okay. Yep. I see it from this side now.” And we can do that to connect with other people. But then, you know, we've talked about like— and everybody talks about that fine line of we are our numbers, but then we're not our numbers. And so like, how do I step into someone else's shoes to help myself see this from a different vantage point that I don't have to just see it this way?

[00:20:18] Camille Logan: How can I lean on the strengths of other numbers? whether it's, the numbers that sit right next to me or the numbers that I connect to. Um, how can I use those access points and those vantage points to my advantage. So I'm not just looking at something from my lens. Cuz then I'm missing out cuz there's beauty in looking at it from other lenses.

[00:20:37] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm, I'm curious if, as you've kind of grown and like been able to say like, “okay, I'm not gonna reframe this immediately. I am gonna sit with this sadness with this client” and things like that. What tools would the Enneagram, like maybe your wings or your arrows or whatever, what tools of the Enneagram have you used or leaned on to develop that better?

[00:20:55] Camille Logan: Yeah. Definitely. So as a Seven I connect to the Five place. And so, I almost honestly, probably my therapist vibe, like when I'm in the room, I actually had a client the other day who was started listening to my podcast. And she was like, you sound different on there. And I'm like, oh, because I— like I'm talking faster, I'm excited. I'm, you know, just be-bopping around and just, [makes fast noises]. But in therapy,yeah, I'm a lot more chill and a lot more calm and a lot more there's more depth. And there's a lot more silence and quiet. And so I almost sometimes really feel like my therapist zone is in my five space of just kind of thinking and being. So that's something that I have used the Enneagram to kind of lean into

[00:21:52] Camille Logan: ,is that five space,as a therapist. I think with Six, yep. Next to the Six, I feel like me being able to like prepare and to have a plan and to think through like, “Okay. If this client is talking about this, like how do we kind of have that be a little bit more like step wise and like what would be the best ways to like support this client in a very like logical way?”

[00:22:16] Camille Logan: And then I think my One connection, I think I use that a lot in sort of this place of when I have to kind of really advocate for a client and be like, “Hey, that's not that what they did. Wasn't right. You know, that's not okay.” And so being able to kind of be that voice in the room with a client. So yeah, all of it, all the ways

[00:22:41] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah, no and I love that. I think that's such a great example of how we have all these tools at our disposal with the Enneagram. Like it's not just like, “Oh, here's your type. Here you go. Good luck.” Right?

[00:22:54] Camille Logan: yeah. Mm-hmm mm-hmm yeah, no.

[00:22:57] Steph Barron Hall: And I do love it too. I think that this is why so many of us are drawn to it, is that it's not just like descriptive of where you are, but like here's where you could go basically.

[00:23:08] Camille Logan: Yes, yes, yes. I think that's what drew me the most into the Enneagram honesty, because I've always liked— I mean, yeah, I'm a therapist, so I love personality stuff. I love the Myers Briggs and the Strength finder. And I love all of that stuff because I just find it so neat. And why the Enneagram spoke more to me was that it does create places of growth that creates places of road—

[00:23:37] Camille Logan: Like you said, a map, like a roadmap of where you are and how you get somewhere else. And, I thought that was really, really interesting and I hadn't found other personality systems to really do that as well. It felt like it was just, “Hey, you're an ENFJ— That's it.” Right? Like there's no talk about, “Okay, if you're in ENFJ, how can you be an INFJ?” like there's no, like that I know of, there's no path for that. Where as with the Enneagram, when it's like, “Hey, you're a Seven, but hey, like there's a path for you to be a little bit more Five-like, and there's a path for you to use your Eight wing and do this.

[00:24:15] Camille Logan: And there's all these paths that I can use to kind of, not be in the box. The thing that Kim says so beautifully on our podcast at one point is like the Enneagram helps us identify our box and then figure out how to get out of that box. As opposed to other personality systems that really are like, here's your box.

[00:24:33] Camille Logan: There's a little bit more to it, so that's really neat. 

[00:24:39] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. I totally agree. Obviously, cuz we're here talking about the Enneagram.

[00:24:43] Camille Logan: Yeah. Of course.

[00:24:45] Steph Barron Hall: So I'm really curious, because I actually have met a few Sevens who are therapists and I think that's mostly because of the types of programs that I'm in because of the type of work that I do. But I think for a lot of us, sometimes it might be like, “Huh, how did you end up as a therapist as a Seven?” And I'm really curious how you chose this career path and what that has looked like for you.

[00:25:07] Camille Logan: Yeah. I love that I'm a Seven therapist. Like I think it is a beautiful thing because I don't know. I think maybe we all think this about our number, but sometimes I feel like the Sevens get a little bit of a— get painted a certain way and it, they kind of miss some of it. And I'm almost getting emotional thinking about it.

[00:25:30] Camille Logan: Like I have a really close tie to like beauty and what is good in the world and, abundance, not in a way of like that gluttony place, but this place of like what could be and how wonderful it could be. 

[00:25:46] Steph Barron Hall: yeah.

[00:25:48] Camille Logan: And I have a really close relationship with hope and all of that. And I think as a therapist, like I get to bring beauty into people's lives. I get to notice where there is redemption and where there is hope and where there is strength and resilience. I mean, again, like for sevens we're so — we can reframe and do a silver lining, like a blink of an eye. And in counseling school, like that's one of the first things we learn is how to reframe.

[00:26:17] Camille Logan: And I'm like, “Oh, I got that.” Like, you know, like that's really like simple. And so being able to do that is so special to me. There was— this is a silly story, but the movie in Encanto—And so we were, you know, my friends and I were all watching it or whatever and one of my friends asked if you could have any special power that the people in Encanto have, which would you pick?

[00:26:41] Camille Logan: And I said, me and the other Seven said, to be able to add flowers. And I think that that is such a Seven thing to say that, like I want to add flowers. I want to be able to add beauty in all of these areas. And I think that sometimes, maybe it's my own perception that people be like, “oh, just add flowers?

[00:27:03] Camille Logan: Like, you don't wanna be the one that heals? You don't wanna be the one that like sees the future? And I'm like, “No, I wanna make things beautiful.” And that's a really great skill. And so I definitely feel like that as a therapist, like I wanna add flowers. I wanna connect with people and help people see that like what they think is a huge mess or a huge place of despair is actually a place of beauty, or a place that beauty can rise from it, where we can find laughter. A lot of times my clients will say, “Gosh, I didn't realize I was gonna laugh so much in therapy.” Um, and not that like— it's because things sometimes are funny, like you know, let's take a step back and like giggle about this or, or laugh about this because, whew. I think that sometimes clients that aren't in therapy sometimes don't realize that like, “Yeah, there is also a levity to the work and that we're still human.”

[00:27:58] Camille Logan: We can have fun. I bring a lot of fun into my work. I don't just sit and talk. We'll get up. We'll kind of play, like we'll, um, I will have you show me with your body. I will have you draw it out for me. I will have you, you know, use items to kind of like show me something. And, so not just getting stuck cerebrally, but trying to get into our bodies and do a little bit something out of the box in terms of therapy. And I think as a Seven, I really lean into that playfulness in therapy. Life is hard, you know, let's make it a little easier.

[00:28:33] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. And I think that creativity is something that I think we often miss when we are highlighting Sevens. I think that there you're right there is that stereotype that sevens don't have any depth. And it's like, no, no. Like you can be serious about your job and just wanna have fun while doing it. Right? Like it both can exist, but also with Fours and Sevens, like there is no box, right? We always say like, think outside the box. It's like, no, no, no, there's no box. Like therapy doesn't have to be on a couch, like looking at each other. It can be anything.

[00:29:07] Camille Logan: yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love that. Mmmm. Yeah. Yes. And I think that to be fair, I think that probably sometimes maybe why sevens get a little bit of a short— I don't think we really do. I think there's other numbers that probably do really get caricatured a lot more.

[00:29:25] Camille Logan: But,I think that sometimes why a lot of people don't know a lot about the Seven is because we don't let people see that side, right? Like I'm not gonna sit and talk about the depths of things with everybody, because at the core I'm afraid. So it's really with my, my close people that I'm really gonna show the depth and the wisdom and all the stuff that the Sevens do bring, but on the surface, yeah, we look like we're having a grand old time. But we look like we're just adding flowers. Right? But it's not— everybody knows why I'm adding flowers. And so I think part of our stuff, right? That we kind of keep it light for everybody. And, and unless you're in that inner circle, I think you can see that, oh no, there's a lot going on underneath the surface.

[00:30:13] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm,Yeah. Yeah. Do you watch the show Schitt's Creek?

[00:30:18] Camille Logan: Yes!

[00:30:18] Steph Barron Hall: Okay,

[00:30:19] Camille Logan: Yes. That was one of my like pandemic, like lifeboats. I watched it at the very beginning of lockdown. So it was like bomb to my soul. Like I like was like, I need this in my life. So yes, I do love Schitt’s Creek.

[00:30:39] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. And I think too, like one thing I love about it is like, it is funny, but also they're not like glossing over the shittiness of their situation. Right? just like talking about it. But anyway, so this scene where, I don't remember what episode it's in, but David and Alexis are going to David's driving test or whatever. And David says to Alexis, like, “Like you just skate through life.” And she's like, “I don't skate through life. I walk through life and really nice shoes”, you know? And where she's just saying, like— and this is something I see about sevens a lot. Sometimes it seems like Sevens always get their way or like they always figure it out or they always land on their feet.

[00:31:23] Steph Barron Hall: And I think what's actually happening is like just the belief that they can figure it out. Just the belief that things are possible. Just the belief that things will turn out okay, is kind of what makes it turn out okay. Cuz they're not knocked down by things. They're like, oh pivot instead of like falling over, you know?

[00:31:40] Camille Logan: 100%. I feel like when, like, you know the quote that's like “When life hands you lemons make lemonade or make margaritas”, I'm like, a Seven thought of that. Like, all right, we're gonna make lemonade outta this. This is the reframe that's gonna happen. Like we're gonna make something good happen.

[00:31:58] Camille Logan: Um, so yeah, absolutely. I also think like, you know, a generalization is I think that Sevens generally like being Sevens. And so I feel like when we hear our number, we're like, yeah, that makes complete sense. Like, why wouldn't I make lemonade when I got lemons? Like, why would you sit here and cry about lemons? Let's just make it into lemonade. So it makes sense to us. I love that about— yes and I know. Personally again, I don't know if this is a Seven thing. I will get self-conscious when people say you just skate through life or you just get, uh— there's a phrase that I've heard in my life, you just gallivant around. And I'm like, no, I'm not just gallivanting. I actually do feel what's happening. I am, I do see the lemons I do, um, feel and there's depth and I'm thinking about it, but yeah. Am I gonna make lemonade and add flowers and go on a trip? Like, yeah, I sure am. Because life is short and let's live it to the fullest and experience the beauty that there is to be had here.So Yes.

[00:33:05] Steph Barron Hall: MMhmm, Yeah. And I think you're right. You know, there is something to that we're missing when we don't see that, right? And I also think that just in my experience, like working with Sevens, I think that the move from the passion of gluttony to the virtue of sobriety is one of the hardest ones.

[00:33:28] Camille Logan: Yes.

[00:33:29] Steph Barron Hall: Because gluttony just works so well. And it is so like reinforcing of itself, Right?

[00:33:35] Camille Logan: Yeah.

[00:33:36] Steph Barron Hall: And then the virtuous sobriety feels, it feels like a trap almost.

[00:33:43] Camille Logan: Yeah, it does. Yes. Yes, it is hard. And I think every number, whatever their path is, it's tough because we're taking away the thing that has worked. Um, and the thing that makes sense in quotation marks. And so for yeah, to say, “Well, okay, now I have to move to a place of sobriety”, is hard and it does feel like a trap. And the work is that there's beauty in that. There is, “you're gonna be okay”. Right? Because again, the idea for idea first Seven is like, I don't know if I'm gonna be okay. I don't know if these people can hold this. I don't know if I can depend on them. I don't know if I'm gonna get stuck here. I don't know what's gonna happen if I'm sad for a long time. And so with a place of sobriety, it's like, you will be okay. You are held, you are connected, you are supported. You can handle this. You don't need to pile on trips and this and that, and you don't have to get distracted and you don't have to like flitter and flutter, like you can sit with this emotion, you can sit with this quiet, and you will be okay.

[00:34:57] Camille Logan: So I think that it is very hard, but there is beauty in it and there is necessity in it. Cuz if you're just flittering and fluttering, if you are just gallivanting around, then you don't see the beauty that comes from the quiet.

[00:35:14] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm

[00:35:14] Camille Logan: and there's beauty in that too. So I think, and again, even as I'm hearing myself say that, I'm like, again what a Seven thing for me to say, but there's beauty there too.

[00:35:22] Camille Logan: Like, you know, there's goodness there too. That's what motivates me to say it's okay to be quiet. Is that “no, but there's something beautiful there”. Cuz that's gonna drive me to wanna do it.

[00:35:33] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, well, and that's too like the satisfaction or the fulfillment that the seven is seeking. Right? And just being able to see it like right in front of you,

[00:35:42] Camille Logan: yeah.

[00:35:43] Steph Barron Hall: but that takes work right.

[00:35:44] Camille Logan: It takes a lot of work and it is, it is uncomfortable and it is hard and yeah, it's it. I mean, I think that's, again, all of the work that all of us have to do, it's not easy. It's, it's difficult. I think about, you know, I take a deep breath, right? Cuz I'm feeling that in my chest. I think about the beginning of the pandemic and you know, this, when I was watching shits Creek and it was the stay at home orders and the boredom. like, Ugh, like the boredom that came with that and, um, that I couldn't, um, go out and about and see all my people and, and travel and do all the things.

[00:36:20] Camille Logan: And I had to stay home and I had to sit and watch TV and how hard, like, literally, I mean, it was hard for everybody, but. Um, it was really hard. It was really hard to have to be quiet and slow. And, but like, but like through that experience, through those, those months and years, there has been growth and I feel healthier because I am able to be like, okay, like we can, we can show, we can be okay. Like, there's actually some goodness to this. Um, and so that's good, kind of forced into it. we learned something from it on the other end.

[00:37:01] Steph Barron Hall: Like that sense, like the worst thing I could have thought of happened and I survived so I'm okay. Yeah.

[00:37:09] Camille Logan: I was, talking to another Enneagram person and we were the phrase that I used was, “I'm not gonna die”. And they they're on a Nine on the Enneagram and they were like, but it feels that big of a deal, like, it feels like, oh my God, but what if I die? And I had a Two client once that talked about rejection feels like heartbreak. And I was like, wow, that's a really big sentence. But like, to her it was like, that's how big it feels like. My Six friend one time said, “this person not being in my life anymore, feels like betrayal”. Like that big of a sentence. Like it is pain. Our thing that we're trying— it's painful. Like boredom feels like I'm gonna die. It feels like I'm gonna die and I'm gonna be stuck here forever and life is gonna pass me by and I'm gonna shrivel up on this couch and just like, never see sunshine again. Like, and it's like, “no, it's just an afternoon of boredom.”

[00:38:07] Camille Logan: Like, you know, but it feels like this really sad scary thing. And I think all the numbers, right? Like you talk to an Eight and you tell them about vulnerability. They're like, no, I'm gonna die. Like, I'm gonna, like, that's gonna make me explode if I have to cry in front of you. Right? And it's like, what really?

[00:38:23] Camille Logan: And they're like, yes, yes. That's how big of a deal it is or no, a One when they make a mistake, they're like, “I'm literally, screaming inside because I made a mistake.” It's that big of a deal. So just the grace and compassion that we all have to have for each other about this growth work, that it's not as easy as it looks. And so we might think, “oh, who cares? It's just a mistake.” And a One's like, “no”, or like, “who cares? It's just boredom.” And it’s like “nooo. It’s really hard. Sobriety is hard”.

[00:38:51] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah. It is hard. It is really hard. Yeah. And it does feel like death, I think. And for all of us, just like you're saying, I'm just, as you're talking about all these different examples, I'm like, yeah for Threes it's like, “If I cease doing, I cease existing” and it's really hard

[00:39:10] Camille Logan: what a sentence!

[00:39:11] Steph Barron Hall: right?

[00:39:13] Camille Logan: Yeah. “If I cease doing, I cease existing”, like that is such a grave statement, but it's how they feel like,

[00:39:21] Steph Barron Hall: Yep.

[00:39:22] Camille Logan: Yeah.

[00:39:25] Steph Barron Hall: Yes, it is very painful to have to unlearn those things. Um,

[00:39:29] Camille Logan: Yes.

[00:39:30] Steph Barron Hall: and I do think that like one of my big principles too is, you know, when you get like healthier quote unquote in your type, that doesn't mean that those things go away. It just means that you're able to, like, you're saying you're able to observe it and be like, I'm gonna be okay. Like this sucks and I hate it, but I'm gonna be okay. 

[00:39:48] Camille Logan: “I’m not gonna die.”

[00:39:49] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. I am curious if you have any thoughts— Sorry, I'm like formulating this as I'm like talking through it, because I think something else that people miss about Sevens is that is how cerebral they are because they're in the head center. Right? But I think people are like, “they're just floating around” and it's like, no, no, it's because they like every— like all of their energy is in their head and even Seven clients I've had I'm like, “Where in your body do you feel that?”, they're like “Right here in my head”.

[00:40:25] Camille Logan: Yeah. In my head. Yeah. Mm-hmm mm-hmm

[00:40:28] Steph Barron Hall: Oh! yeah. And so I'm curious if you have any thoughts that you want everyone to know about Sevens in, in that context.

[00:40:34] Camille Logan: Yeah. We're in our head, is what I say to that. I co-sign. That we're completely in our head. You've probably also heard me say I've just, again, the Enneagram helps us like catch ourselves. I've said so much already in this podcast. That makes sense. It makes sense. I'm in my head. It makes sense. It makes logical sense. So yeah, we're in our heads. We're thinking a lot. It's a lot of thoughts happening at one time. I want things to make sense logically. My heart space, I have to get really quiet to know what is happening there. Um, am I sad? Am I mad? Am I, you know, whatever's— I have to really listen closely to that and then same thing with my body.

[00:41:26] Camille Logan: Um, and that has taken work of my own personal work of like, yeah, what's going on in my body. Because yeah, if you ask me how I feel, I'm gonna, “I think I…”, which automatically is, I think, I'm in my brain. And so I have to go, “no, I feel tight in my chest. I need to take a breath. I feel overwhelmed or sad or happy” or whatever. So that's work for a seven for sure, to kind of pull ourselves down into our heart space and into our bodies. Not just rely on our head. Yeah, but I do think that that is a misconception about how much we're in our heads and our holy virtue though is wisdom. Right? And that's something that, again, people don't realize that we do bring a wisdom because we are in our heads and we are thinking things through and then mix it with all the other stuff that we do so naturally, we bring a sense of wisdom.

[00:42:20] Camille Logan: And again, I think that people are sometimes surprised to think like, “Oh, Sevens, holy virtue is wisdom?” And you're like, “Yeah,

[00:42:26] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm

[00:42:27] Camille Logan: don’t sleep on us.” like,

[00:42:29] Steph Barron Hall: yeah.

[00:42:30] Camille Logan: don’t think that we don't know what's going on. We do. that we are very wise and in our heads. Yes, very, very, very cerebral. Mm-hmm

[00:42:43] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah. And I think when I think about wisdom, you know, I think about the combination of knowledge, but also like emotional intelligence too, like bringing those two sides together, which Sevens are just always on that path. I think too, once they get started, because it is that question of like, how do I connect my head and my heart?

[00:43:05] Camille Logan: Yeah, I think paying attention to it. Because I have studied feelings and I know that feelings are important as a therapist. I logically can get there so I can logically go, “It is a good thing for you, Camille, to connect to your feelings.” That is an important value of mine, whereas actually with other numbers— So a cool thing that I've kind of recognized is so with the Sevens, we don't have any connection to the heart space. We're our wings are are the body triad and the head triad, and then our access points are the head triad and the body triad again. So nowhere do I connect to the heart space.

[00:43:50] Camille Logan: For me, I have to logically again, use my brain to say, But I should use my heart space and that is a good thing to use my heart space. So how do I tap into my heart space? Whereas a Two on the other side, a two doesn't connect to the head triad, um, a two, all the same things I just went through. Their wings are in the body and the heart, and then their access points are the body, and then the heart again. So no, no thinking connection— They are thinking. But it's not your natural tendency to go to, “That makes sense.” That's not what a Two's gonna say, a Two's gonna go, “That feels like this”, or “I should do this”, or ‘I connected in this way”. But “that makes sense” is gonna be a harder sentence for them. And so for what I'm working with Twos, I can't logically convince them to get to the head space because that's not their strength. Um, for me to get them to go to the head space is to go,

[00:44:51] Camille Logan: “Other people go to the head space”, right? “This is where other people connect. So it would be important for you to learn how to do that so that you can connect with others.” Right? Cuz that's gonna be their motivators. Like, “Ooh, how do I connect with others? Oh, okay. Let me do that.” For a Seven, what makes sense is what's gonna motivate me to go over to my heart space. Does that make, does that make sense?

[00:45:13] Steph Barron Hall: No, it totally does. It totally makes sense. And I think that's such a great observation too, of being able to figure out what is gonna motivate you and what's gonna motivate each person that you're meeting with or whatever and to be able to meet them.

[00:45:27] Camille Logan: yeah. And then Enneagram does a great job of like, you can see that visually, right? By like looking at the connections and then you can just kind of just know it, but just to be able to say like, oh wow, that's a harder access point for, for sevens to get over there.

[00:45:42] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm yeah. Well, okay. I've been loving this conversation, and I want people to be able to connect with you. And I'm curious, what are you working on right now? What are you passionate about? What do you want people to know about how to connect with you and your work?

[00:45:58] Camille Logan: Yeah, what I'm working on right now, what I'm always working on is therapy and being a therapist. And so I own a practice here in Raleigh, North Carolina, and I see clients all day and I love it. Super passionate about my work as a therapist. I think it's one of the greatest jobs on earth. Just being able to see and walk through life with people and to add flowers and help people heal and grow and understand themselves and the people around them. nd then I, I believe in, uh, social justice and, and making our world a better place. And I, the way that I want to contribute to that is, is helping individual. Feel like healthier humans, cuz I feel like when we are healthier humans, then we are gonna spread that out into the world. There's a beautiful quote that's, “When the world inside of me changes, the world outside of me changes.”

[00:46:48] Camille Logan: And so when I can help my clients connect to empathy for themself and compassion for themself and all of those kind of things, then they can help to do that in the world that they live in. So that's something that I'm super, super passionate about. Um, and especially right now after, you know, wherever we are in the stage of the pandemic,that people are wanting, and needing healing growth connection.

[00:47:11] Camille Logan: Um, and so really being able to provide that. So that's my number one, passion probably, um, when it comes to what I'm working on. And then the second thing is a new, the newer project, which is The Enneagram for the Culture. And that's the podcast that I do with Kim. And really the idea about that is bringing the intersection of the, Enneagram, therapy, and then race into the picture. And so we are really passionate about the Enneagram in general, where we're both really passionate about therapy. And then we're both really passionate about bringing that to people that look like us and, and that have not had normally had access to the Enneagram just because the space has lacked in representation and, bringing that to people so that they can grow and so that they can use these tools. And then also adding what we've really been excited about in our conversations on the podcast is adding, you know, the Enneagram does such a beautiful job of identity. Like it's all about identity and how we show up in the world. And of course, the way that we show up in our identities is important.

[00:48:04] Camille Logan: So the way we show up as women or men, um, if we show up from different cultures, if we live in the south or in the north or on the west coast, like there's different things that flavor our personality because of the identities that we hold, if I'm a mom or I'm not. Um, and so then part of that, a huge part of that is race.

[00:48:20] Camille Logan: And so how do I show up in the world because of my race, um, because of this, the messages around that, or the world that I live in the cultural implications of that and the cultural, history, but then also the cultural joys. And so really talking about the Enneagram from that lens and what makes each number— how each number intersects with their racial identity.

[00:48:44] Camille Logan: And that's been such a beautiful, cool, um, conversation that we have been really excited to tap into and, and talk about with folks. So that's my second passion. And so that's a podcast and so you can find it on wherever you listen to podcast. It's called Enneagram for the Culture. And, each week we drop an episode around each, this season, we've just done each number, um, and really ask the question of how each number intersects with race.

[00:49:07] Camille Logan: And then season two will be TBD. We'll figure that out after our trip and what our topic will be.

[00:49:15] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. I'll put the links in the show notes too, so that everyone can access it easily, but where can people find you on Instagram?

[00:49:23] Camille Logan: Yeah. So, my professional account, so, um, just as a therapist is Camille dot Logan LCMHC, which is a kind of a mouthful. And then if you want to find the podcast Instagram, that's @Enneagramfortheculture. So those that one's an easy one, too. If you find Enneagram for the Culture, cuz that's just easier, you'll find Camille dot Logan. And you'll like you said, they'll be in the show notes, but that's how folks can find me online on the, on the internet.

[00:49:50] Steph Barron Hall: “On the internet.” Um, okay. Final two questions. So these are two questions that I honestly kind of started asking out of my own selfish curiosity, because I love to read I'm obsessed with all of the books. I love to read as much as I humanly can. So could you name a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year?

[00:50:15] Camille Logan: Yes, I love this question. As a therapist, we are always reading professional books and then it's really important for us to read personal books because just because, so I'm gonna name two. Professionally a book that has refreshed me recently, and that I've been giving to a lot of clients and recommending to a lot of clients is The Wisdom of Your Body. It's by Hillary McBride. Um, and it talks about how to become more, um, embodied and how to connect to your body. It is a beautiful book. The bottom says finding healing, wholeness and connection through embodied living. So she really tries to break down a lot of the scripts that get placed on our bodies around thinness, around spirituality, around pain, around feelings and how our feelings show up in our body. So it's a beautiful book, really, really highly recommend that one professionally. 

[00:51:07] Camille Logan: And then personally, I was in a little slump of my personal books because I was kind of focusing a lot on my professional books. And so I got back into reading fun books and the ones that kind of like sparked me and got me back into it was all the books by Jasmine Guillory, which are these like fun. I mean, this is fluff. This is romantic comedy style. This is chick lit, which I don't love that term, but this is “Hi. I'm reading this book and within five minutes, I know exactly what's gonna happen, but I'm gonna go along for the ride.” And so, you know, boy meets girl, minor conflict. We get back together within the last 20 pages of the book, kind of a thing.

[00:51:47] Camille Logan: But there's fun and there's some sexy scenes and it's just really cute. So all those books Jasmine Guillory writes. I love those personally and they're just such a great, especially after a hard day of work just wanting to sort of escape into like a really simple plot line is very, very comforting for me.

[00:52:08] Steph Barron Hall: I am here for that. I am the type of person who I pick up a book like that. I don't care if it's silly. I don't care if I know what's happening, I will sit and I will read the entire thing like that is just who I am.

[00:52:19] Camille Logan: and it's kind of nice those books because you usually read them pretty fast, cuz it's like an easy read. And so it's kind of nice to just sort of, you know, you can finish it in a weekend and so you can kind, just be like, this is my book, I'm just gonna hunker down and I'm gonna curl up on the couch and just read this and then that'll be that right.

[00:52:34] Camille Logan: It's not a slog to get through. It's sort of just this little fun. Breez. Um, but so I love those. And recently in that same genre I've gotten into, have you heard of the Bromance Book Club?

[00:52:46] Steph Barron Hall: No.

[00:52:47] Camille Logan: Oh my gosh, this is so silly. Okay. So it is so good though, but it's the bromance book club and it is a series and it is about guys who created this book club where they read romance novels, and then they apply the romance novels to their own like personal lives. So like the first one, which it's right on the back. So I'm not reading anything, the guy, him and his wife separate. The bromance book club come and like welcome him in.

[00:53:17] Camille Logan: And they're like, come, you need to read these books. And he is like, what? I'm not reading these books, but then it ends up that the book gives him tips about how to get back with his wife, because he wasn't listening to her blah, blah, blah, blah. It is such a creative twist on those sort of like again, easy, uh, books that are just kind light, but it's fun that it's a male lead. It's just an, I've never heard of that, like creativity. And then they're really sexy and fun too. So, all of that mixed in they're really good ones too.

[00:53:45] Steph Barron Hall: Okay, totally gonna read those, put those on the list for sure. Okay. Amazing. Love those. Okay. One last question. What is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

[00:53:58] Camille Logan: yeah. Um, something lately that I've been like, kind of coming back to, and  I help clients with this, but I've been really using it with myself is that  imposter syndrome. Right? So imposter syndrome is a liar, but you can also use it as fuel. And so this idea that we can use that little voice that says, mm, I don't think you can do this.

[00:54:21] Camille Logan: We can actually use that to our advantage to say, okay, well then let me study for it or let me prepare for it or let me, do what I need to do to be able to feel more confident in doing this. And then we end up nailing it, because we like actually like worked at it. Um, and so even though it was a liar that I can't do this, I can still use that as fuel.

[00:54:41] Camille Logan: So, that's been something that I've been thinking a lot about lately and, um, even thinking about how imposter syndrome shows up for women and then even people of color and, um, how that is sort of just like a natural. It's like just what we do is have that imposter syndrome just because of society.

[00:54:57] Camille Logan: And so yeah, if I'm gonna naturally have that, how do I use that to make me better? And just helping clients and then myself say, okay, all right, I see you, imposter syndrome. Let me like, watch what I can do. Right. And so, using it as fuel has been something that's been helpful. So that quote, “it's a liar, but we can use it as fuel.”

[00:55:16] Steph Barron Hall: Ah, that's so beautiful. I'm gonna write that down. Put it on a sticky note. Paste it everywhere.

[00:55:22] Camille Logan: Yes. Yes.

[00:55:24] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.

[00:55:25] Camille Logan: Yes. This has been great.

[00:55:26] Steph Barron Hall: Well, thank you so, so much for sharing all of your type seven wisdom with us. So thrilled. I can't wait for people to hear this and if you're listening, make sure you follow Camille, listen to any Enneagram for the Culture.

[00:55:38] Steph Barron Hall: It's honestly fantastic. I really enjoy it and I'll be honest. I don't listen to a lot of Enneagram podcast because I'm like I wanna do something else. So if I listen to an Enneagram podcast, you know, it's good.

[00:55:50] Camille Logan: Aw, thank you. That means a lot because there are a lot of Enneagram podcasts. And so, yes. So thank you so much for, for listening and loving it. And I'm excited to listen to the other folks that you have on yours.

[00:56:00] Steph Barron Hall: Of course. Thank you.

[00:56:02] Camille Logan: Thank you!

[00:56:03] Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you.I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me.

[00:56:39] Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of Enneagram IRL very soon.

[00:56:45] The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of Nine Types Co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify