Finding Purpose as an Enneagram 1 with Liz Goulding

[00:00:7] Steph Barron Hall: Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in Real Life, a podcast that will help you go beyond Enneagram theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Barron hall, creator of Nine Types Co. on Instagram, author of The Enneagram in Love, accredited Enneagram professional, and ennea-curious human, just like you. Be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram in your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now on to the show.

[00:00:38] I am so excited for you to hear today's episode. This interview is with Liz Goulding, who is actually one of my coaches. Yes, I am a coach and I have various coaches for various different parts of my life. And the reason for that is I really find that it's important to actually walk the talk right? So if I'm asking you, "Hey, come learn these things.”, “Hey, come get coaching." I also have to be investing in that for myself. And I've been working with Liz for over a year and it seriously has been invaluable to me in my life, in my professional and personal growth over this last year. And so, I really wanted you to hear from her.

[00:01:21] In this episode, we talk about a lot of different things. You'll hear us allude to coaching. You'll hear us allude to a strengths profile session. Both of those things I'm going to link in the show notes and I'm also going to link her newsletter. So, my first introduction to Liz was through her newsletter. A mutual friend actually just forwarded her newsletter to me. And I just thought it was so interesting and helpful. It's typically really short, but it has these really succinct and interesting, not only topics of conversation, but interesting reflection questions that I have found to be super helpful for my own growth, my own life. And so I definitely recommend checking that out. I will again, link that in the show notes so that you can head over there.

[00:02:06] Sign up for her newsletter, get more info about her coaching offerings and her strengths profile offerings, all that good stuff, but make sure to check that out. And that's also where you'll find some of the workshops that we discuss later in the episode, anytime she has something like that available. You can also find that on her newsletter. But I don't want to waste too much time chatting about all of this stuff. I really want to get into this episode. So let me introduce you to Liz for a moment here.

[00:02:32] Liz Goulding is a coach focused on the intersection of personal well-being and professional development. She works primarily with creative professionals and self-employed people that want more energy and capacity to meet the challenges and opportunity that life offers them. She lives in Dallas, Texas with her husband, Brian and her dog Ladybird, who is very cute. I might add. She enjoys hiking in national parks, drinking coffee with friends and eating chocolate ice cream. And we also are going to talk about today, Liz's background in environmental science. That comes up a little bit. She has just a really interesting perspective and has so much knowledge and insight. So I highly recommend checking her out online – her newsletter, everything. Once again, that is linked for you, but without further ado, let's get into this interview and enjoy.

[00:03:27] Okay, well welcome Liz to the podcast.

[00:03:31] Liz Goulding: Hi Steph. I'm excited to be here. Thank you.

[00:03:34] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, of course. So like I mentioned in the intro, Liz is actually my coach. So this is a really fun way for you all to get to hear a little bit more. And I also secretly sneakily get to do, you know, a little bit more listening than talking with her. So that's really fun for me. So yeah, we're gonna dive into who you are and your type and everything.

So just to begin, who are you? What do you do?

[00:04:06] Liz Goulding: Who am I? I'm the kind of person that can send me into an existential philosophical spiral very quickly. Let's see. I am a coach. I live in Dallas, Texas. I'm still working on the - as a fellow coach, you might know, like most coaches have a word, like an adjective they put in front of the, you know, they're a "health coach" or whatever.

[00:04:31] I'm still working on the word that I'm gonna put in front of, you know, to describe "coach". But I am coach. I'm nationally board certified health and wellness coach. That's kind of my background in training. But I have been in private practice for a year and a half. I work with a lot of people who work for themselves or small business owners, even creative professionals, helping people kind of connect their own personal wellbeing with their work, and then helping people have capacity to do the work they want to do the way they wanna do it. And also have something left over at the end of the day for the rest of their life.

[00:05:13] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.

[00:05:16] Liz Goulding: And besides that, "who am I?" I have a dog named Ladybird. I am married. I like to hike a lot and I like to drink a lot of coffee. I think those are probably some of the things

[00:05:34] Steph Barron Hall: I love all of these things. Okay. First question for you, going off script a little bit, which is really fun for me, not so fun for your type, which we'll get to in a second, but when– so I feel like who you coach in particular really, like that's me, you know, that's like totally me, but I don't remember hearing that from you like when we first started working together, which is almost a year ago. And I'm curious if that has like grown over the last year or if that was your kind of pitch, then.

[00:06:04] Liz Goulding: No, I have been in a big refining process on all of –

[00:06:08] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm

[00:06:09] Liz Goulding: that in the last year. Actually really the last three, three to six months. When I first started coaching, I was almost, I was kind of hostile to nicheing there's um- for those of you out there that aren't coaches or in that sort of this industry, there's a, there can, it can feel like there's a lot of pressure to niche.

[00:06:31] Like if you don't niche, you won't have clients and you won't have work. But I just did not have any clarity around that when I got out of my coaching program and I just decided I'm not gonna force something that doesn't feel right. So instead I just decided, "I'm gonna just coach. I'm gonna coach, coach, coach - get experience working with different people around different things, whatever is important to them."

[00:06:57] And through that, my hope was I'll start seeing some common threads, who I'm enjoying working with, who's resonating with me, who's getting value out of the work. And then what are we talking about? And so that's kind of how I realized like, "oh, like 75% of my clients work for themselves or are in some sort of creative pursuit."

[00:07:18] And I started out as a more traditional health and wellness coach, but, and without oversharing about our work together, but before you, you know, it, you're talking about work and I mean, we've talked about your work, you know, a decent amount. And I think it's because when you own your own business or you work for yourself, it's not a, it's not always about having bad work-life boundaries, it's just that like, your life is your life. And part of your life is your work. And part of your life is the other things you do. And so when you're coaching someone and you really get invested in that relationship, you just end up going where the client needs to go. And so that's, I kind of backed myself into that client base by just realizing that's who I was already working with. And so how about, I just start saying that a little more upfront. So, and actually this, this is kind of the, one of the first times I'm really talking about it and being, "bold" is not the right word, but just direct, like "This is who I work with."

[00:08:26] Cuz there is, there is often that panic about, "Oh, if I start narrowing who I work with, am I gonna have people to work with?" And –

[00:08:34] Steph Barron Hall: right?

[00:08:35] Liz Goulding: the answer is actually, yes. There's lots of people out there that want support, that have goals. And really it's, it's more about making sure you're the right person for them.

[00:08:48] And if you're not, that way that if I can say who I am and what I'm about, then you, the potential client can see that and be like, "oh, she's for me" or, "oh, no, she's not for me. I can go on somewhere else". And for me, that's actually really important. I don't wanna waste people's time. And I wanna be the right fit for them so they can do the things they wanna do, live the life they wanna live.

[00:09:11] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think, that's a great point, cuz I think when we first started working together too, I was really asking these questions about like purpose and clarity and these sorts of things. And that naturally to me is really integrated with the concept of wellness and then also work and just like pulling all of those threads.

[00:09:32] And I feel like every session I'm like, "oh I have new clarity about this, but now I have a question about this that I need to think about". So, yeah, that makes total sense. So with that, I would love to hear about your Enneagram type and you know, what is your type? And how did you first learn about the Enneagram and come across this material? And what's that been like for you?

[00:09:57] Liz Goulding: Figuring out my type has been a journey. So I found out about the Enneagram probably seven or eight years ago. I have a good friend named Jenny and she's now a nurse, but in a past career, she was a minister. And she, you know, there's a, there's definitely a connection between the Enneagram and clergy.

[00:10:20] And so she was into it, just kind of as a framework for understanding people. And so we chatted about it and I thought it was really cool. And I, I think one of the neatest things about it is yes, it's, it's a framework for understanding a person, but there's lots of ways to tweak it, to kind of individualize it for the person.

[00:10:42] And so back then– I'm laughing. It's funny to me. I thought I was a really well-adjusted seven.

[00:10:49] Steph Barron Hall: Uhhuh. Which part of that is funny?

[00:10:53] Liz Goulding: Because that's just not true. It's just not true. I'm not a, I'm not a seven and I'm not sure I'm well-adjusted, sometimes. [laughter] Just looking back, I think it's funny that I thought maybe I was. But through– over time, you know, kind of realized that didn't fit. Spent some time considering that maybe I was a six. I do have some anxiety and, and you know, I worry about things. That didn't quite feel like a good fit.

[00:11:26] And then, maybe about two years ago I started thinking maybe I was a one and that was, that was a pretty, that was a tough pill for me to swallow just conceptually, but have since come to terms with it and I'm a self-pres one.

[00:11:45] Steph Barron Hall: yeah, yeah. I love that journey too, because I think a lot of people, especially when you hear people talk about their type, like on podcasts, it's like, "oh, this is my type". They don't always talk about the journey and the process. And so many people, like it is so normal for people to have that sort of process where you're just figuring it out, and it takes a while.

[00:12:08] And, so yeah, I really appreciate you sharing that too. And especially your subtype, which is really fun. Of course geek out on the subtypes, but, I think that's also really enlightening and for people who know subtypes, they're like, "oh, I could see how she might mistake, you know, six" or whatever, so.

[00:12:28] Liz Goulding: Well, and when you said self-preservation types are always wondering, "when's lunch" I was like, "oh yeah, I feel– I identify with that very strongly".

[00:12:39] Steph Barron Hall: Yes, yes. Self-preservation types have a lot of those sorts of concerns, a lot of the time. So how do, how do you find that it shows up in your daily life?

[00:12:54] Liz Goulding: This is a good question. I think adding the self-preservation aspect to it has been really helpful for me in that, you know, the inner critic or, or the critic is focused more inward than it is out on other people. I, I mean, I would say that's true. And I've been thinking a lot about this kind of in preparation for the podcast. Maybe it would surprise no one out there to learn that an Enneagram one wanted to do a good job as a podcast guest, but I think it, for me, it's less of a constant voice and there's just this feeling of like, "oh, you could be doing a better job". Like, just this nebulous feeling that I could be better than I am.

[00:13:48] So I really resonate. I don't always feel the need to be right, but I do want to be good. And not to win an award. It's not about other people, you know, patting me on the head and being like, "wow, you're so good. You did such a good job." It's more like I wanna contribute to the world and be– and leave things a little better than I found them.

[00:14:14] I would like to be a net benefit to society as whole. And so, but that kind of can get really, I can get really down in the weeds on what does that mean day in and day out for how I'm supposed to live. So like what's my highest and best use as a human and that's a lot of pressure to put on yourself.

[00:14:33] I definitely, I definitely feel it, in that. And then I feel it, I mean, in little ways I was reflecting about how, like control– I definitely have some control issues. Like my husband, he'll reheat something in the oven and I'm like, "oh, what'd you set the oven at?" And he'll be like "325". And in my head I'm like, "that's not the right–"

[00:14:55] Steph Barron Hall: "that's not the right temperature".

[00:14:57] Liz Goulding: No. And maybe even it's like, "okay, it's fine, but it could be better". And after about five minutes, I'm like, "I'm just gonna go over there and adjust it".

[00:15:06] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm

[00:15:06] Liz Goulding: um, so

[00:15:07] Steph Barron Hall: "Just gonna help him out a little bit". [Laughs]

[00:15:09] Liz Goulding: Just little things like that. And then I definitely have, you know, maybe we'll talk about this more, but as a coach, I've really– it's really pushed me to grow as a person, but I have a lot of opinions about things and I do think if I'm not careful, I'll just kind of spew them out into the world and that's not always super helpful. So, this is a very silly example of that, but like I was driving around in our neighborhood the other day and it was like January 7th and people still had Christmas decorations up.

[00:15:44] And just in my head, in my head, I was like, "These decorations need to go. These people– no. We're done here." But it's like, no one– who cares Liz. It's like, they're– if it brings them joy, it's fine.

[00:15:57] Steph Barron Hall: Uhhuh, Uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah, you're definitely not like Christmas-lights-up-til-like-October type of person.

[00:16:06] Liz Goulding: No, but that's maybe a whole other story. I love Christmas, but I also have mixed feelings about it. So I always like, look forward to it. And then when it's done, I'm like, "bye". But yeah, I gave people through epiphany to have their decorations up. I feel like that's more than fair. And now yeah. Now they need to go.

[00:16:24] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's so funny cuz I used to work with this individual who, it was, I just worked with this population with various developmental disabilities. And so we would have like these big, awesome parties, like a lot of this population, they don't necessarily always get that type of awesome party.

[00:16:46] Steph Barron Hall: And we had one guy in our program who on Halloween after the party was over, he took a pumpkin and he smashed it on the floor as hard as he could. And he was like, "party over!" [Laughs]

[00:16:57] Liz Goulding: I, yes. That's– that energy– I would like to– I'm with that.

[00:17:05] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. You're like, "I would never do that, but I want to."

[00:17:09] Liz Goulding: Yeah, I like their style for sure.

[00:17:11] Steph Barron Hall: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm curious about something you said earlier too with like, obviously there's all this growth and development. And I think actually a lot of people might not necessarily know that about coaches because I think people assume, you know, yeah, therapists go through their own therapy process before they become a therapist. Well, coaches go through their own coaching process where they're being coached before they can really become an effective coach. And, and I think that's a great point to highlight. And I'm really curious to hear how as a coach now, cuz obviously you've done some of that growth work, but as a coach now, how is it for you as a One also to be like, "Okay, well I'm leaving this thought or this opinion at the door" and like how do you determine what to bring in and what to not?

[00:18:01] Liz Goulding: That's such a good question. I think something I didn't know about coaching before that I now understand but I'm still learning to implement– and it's all the things we talk about with our clients, we are doing ourselves or need to be.

[00:18:18] Steph Barron Hall: yeah.

[00:18:20] Liz Goulding: It's sort of a, it's not a “practice what you preach” thing per se, but it's that like, "you need to embody those things so you can be present and truly hear your clients and not have your own stuff, clouding your head." And learning what actually helps people change.

[00:18:40] It's just funny. I mean, I think a lot of- you don't have to be a One to bring some, One energy to things and it's that kind of, I think a lot of people perceive ones as there's like a sharpness around them. And they're– it's kind of that when you're watching somebody else with a problem and in your head, you're like, "well, I know what you need to do to fix it.

[00:19:03] You just need to do X, Y, Z." That is just not the way to help people change, turns out. And, and the emotional work on a coach's end to let people go at their own pace and to truly leave your agenda at the door, is very challenging. So, you know, coaches ask a lot of questions, but it's not just that, it's that you can't have an agenda about where you're trying to take the client with the questions.

[00:19:33] So sometimes I have to think like, "do I already know where I'm trying to get this conversation to end?" And if I do, like I'm leading the client and I need to take a step back. But when I can step into that space where I'm truly open to whatever possibilities or options are available to us in the conversation, it's really fun.

[00:19:58] And it's really neat to be surprised by where we end up. So like, you know, a client, whatever the focus they might bring for the conversation, if I can inhabit this place of like, "wow, I don't know where we're gonna go with this. But in 45 minutes, we're gonna find out".

[00:20:16] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.

[00:20:17] Liz Goulding: It's really, it can be really exciting and letting the client- partnering with the client as they find their own way. It does– it really does require me to take a step back from maybe some of my traditional ways of thinking or doing.

[00:20:36] Steph Barron Hall: yeah. Yeah. That makes so much sense because I think one of the things I often suggest for Ones, like when I'm teaching workshops or whatever, is like, rather than making a statement, like saying "that's inaccurate", "that's accurate", et cetera, to ask a question and inherently, that's what you have to do as a coach and to really exercise, curiosity, and find everything to be very open-ended.

[00:21:00] That seems actually like really stretching, but in a really healthy way. And I'm curious if it felt stretching at the beginning.

[00:21:12] Liz Goulding: Honestly, it felt like a relief.

[00:21:15] Steph Barron Hall: Mm mm-hmm mm-hmm

[00:21:16] Liz Goulding: When I learned that I not only didn't have to be the expert but was not the expert. That was not my role.I literally remember feeling like the load got lighter, cuz I don't feel like I'm an expert in anything. Which, you know, that maybe makes sense, being a One. But it's, it's more like I'm a partner in helping the client really discern what they want and need and then helping them take steps to get there.

[00:21:50] Yeah, it's, it kind of was like, "oh, there's no– I don't have to be perfect. I can't be perfect here". That's not even really a word that makes sense. And so I, I found that really liberating. And then I think I just really got on board with the idea of like, what are the best practices around helping people change or helping people get things done or helping people make those mindset shifts that they need to make.

[00:22:19] So maybe I did kind of tie back into some One energy there just kind of realizing like, this is actually the best way to help people get results. It feels hard and it- it almost feels counterintuitive when you're sitting- when you're sitting in a space with someone and they're having a hard time figuring out what to do, or they're having a hard time figuring out why they're not doing certain things, but knowing that like sitting with them in the middle of that and not pushing them any further or faster than they really want to go or are ready or are able to go, that that's actually the best practice for long term results.

[00:23:03] So that was really helpful, like knowing like, okay, this is actually, not the right thing to do, but like I'm doing the best I can do by doing it this way.

[00:23:15] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah, and that's such a mind shift. I feel like. And part of me is like, I wonder if your younger self saw that if you would be like, "wow, I can't believe that I'm doing it this way."

[00:23:33] Liz Goulding: I mean, there's a lot of things I think about my life that my younger self would be like, oh, this is– I think in many ways my younger self would be like, "wow, you're doing pretty good".

[00:23:43] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm

[00:23:44] Liz Goulding: But there would be some other things that they were like, "oh, this is what you're doing?". But I mean, I think that's what happens when you live enough life.

[00:23:54] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, both that sense of pride and, and like, "I thought you'd be farther and along by now, but okay." You know,

[00:24:03] Liz Goulding: Yeah. Or even like, "this didn't turn out like I thought I was going to", or "this doesn't look like I thought it was going to".

[00:24:13] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm curious if like, as you've been kind of reading a little bit more about the Enneagram, if there are certain things about your type that you notice that you're like, "oh, this really, really rings true for me". Or maybe the opposite, maybe certain things that you're like, "oh, that doesn't resonate at all".

[00:24:31] Liz Goulding: I think - that's funny. I, I think that- I am a perfectionist,

[00:24:40] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm

[00:24:41] Liz Goulding: but I'm laughing. Cuz I'm about to say, I don't think I'm a very good perfectionist and that, and that maybe feels like the most, Enneagram One thing I could ever say.

[00:24:52] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm

[00:24:53] Liz Goulding: and again the pursuit of being good and doing what's right. I do resonate with that strongly. I've also been thinking a bit about the whole repressed anger piece and I don't know how to be angry.

[00:25:15] Steph Barron Hall: mm

[00:25:16] Liz Goulding: that's something that I have realized and am really almost excited to explore. It a little scary. I am frustrated a lot, but I mean, which is like, you know, your anger coming sideways. But to be full on actually angry, is pretty rare. There's always a piece of me that's like, "Nope, Nope, don't do that. We gotta keep it in". And so I'm actually really - yeah, like I said, excited and a little scared to explore that.

[00:25:51] What would it be like to really allow myself to feel angry? I also resonate with the kind of turning your perfectionist pursuits on your- inward on yourself. Like I am my own project for perfection. And I, you know, I don't have a problem sharing that I have history from my twenties of some disordered eating tendencies and over-exercising and training for races and events and kind of using that to cover up this really, this need to control my body and what I looked like. And so there's been tons of growth for me there on, you know, loving myself, accepting myself. Not needing to hold things so tightly, I'm on the fence on if I push back between that need to be right.

[00:26:48] I don't always think there's one right way to do things. I often think there's a, maybe a better way or there's several right ways and there's maybe a wrong- like a worse way, but maybe I've like softened that. That it's again, not quite as sharp as like there's one right way to do it and everything else is wrong. I mean, I told you this earlier, but I had a couple friends when I was like, "yeah, I'm a, self-preservation One". They were like, "well I'm adding you to the very short list of healthy ones that I know". And I was like, "Okay. Okay then." You know, so again, I think there's something about the way that I at least present myself that doesn't come across with that, that sharpness that some people feel from Ones. So I don't know what that is that I am maybe pushing back against, or if it's just that I turn it all inward–

[00:27:49] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.

[00:27:50] Liz Goulding: less at other people.

[00:27:52] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. I mean, it might be a bit of both. I've definitely met self-pres Ones who do have a little bit more of a need to kind of correct and stuff. But, a lot of the time self-pres Ones are very warm and they're very welcoming and they can be really hard to type because of that, because there is that stereotype of maybe the social One or the sexual One who are both a little bit more- like the social One is like, "oh, if the correct thing to do is stand up straight, well, I'm just gonna stand as tall as I possibly can." And the sexual One is just not as focused on internal perfection of like going out and reforming things. Like that's more of the focus, or controlling somebody else, you know? And so I think I could definitely see that drive to be right showing up there a little bit more. And also I would not discredit all of the work that you've done on yourself and all that kind of stuff, too. I think that all of that probably plays into it.

[00:28:55] Liz Goulding: Well, let me ask you this. If this feels more like it fits into the One category or if it feels like a pushback, but I hate rules that have no point. And I obviously am determining if it has a point or not. But when I see like bureaucracy or paperwork with no point I-

[00:29:17] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm

[00:29:18] Liz Goulding: I do get angry. I kind of like go from like zero to angry very quickly. So like, what's your thought on where that fits in?

[00:29:29] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. I mean, I think - Yeah, I will say I have experienced a lot of Ones who feel that way. And it has to do with their own internal moral code. And I think that's something actually, people misunderstand about Ones a lot is that they're just having to ascribe to whatever the rules are. I would say that sometimes Ones aren't necessarily the biggest rule followers for other people's rules, because they kind of have their own rules.

[00:29:58] So like an example I [00:30:00] always give is, somebody close to me always put the aluminum foil in their recycling bin, though you're not supposed to.

[00:30:11] Liz Goulding: Yeah, you can't do that.

[00:30:12] Steph Barron Hall: Right. And you would know why. Right?

[00:30:16] Liz Goulding: Yep.

[00:30:17] Steph Barron Hall: But yeah. It's– Mm-hmm?

[00:30:19] Liz Goulding: Wait, was this also aluminum foil that had food on it?

[00:30:23] Steph Barron Hall: Well, I think that they were like, "but it didn't have food on it now", cuz they rinse it off or whatever.

[00:30:27] Liz Goulding: No, no. Okay. When this– PSA for everybody out there, if any of your stuff you're recycling has any sort of biological material on it, it's ruined from recycling.

[00:30:39] Steph Barron Hall: They gotta rinse it. Wash it. 

[00:30:41] Liz Goulding: It's almost well– and it's almost like when in doubt, put it in the trash, don't recycle it. People think, "Oh, when in doubt, I'll just recycle it", but if you get too much bad stuff mixed in with the recycling, then they can't rec– then it's like, the materials are no good and they can't recycle it. Or people at the recycling plant, I mean, they literally pay people to stand there on the line and pull the stuff out that shouldn't be recycled.

[00:31:04] That's a whole other tangent, cuz I mean also most things– Now I'm gonna spiral into like pessimist territory. Steph had asked me if I was an optimist or a pessimist and I've been thinking about it. I said pessimist, but then I thought, "oh, am I maybe I don't– maybe I'm not understanding that word." I looked it up and I was like, "no, I think, I think maybe I am a pessimist", but I don't think that negates my own obligation to show up and try. Tangent on recycling.

[00:31:41] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, but I mean, it's that belief that a perfect world could exist. And so a lot of the frustration comes from like trying to make that happen and just feeling so frustrated along the way and kind of believing sometimes for a lot of Ones, "If everyone just did their part, things would be better."

[00:31:59] Liz Goulding: Because that's true. Yeah. You were talking about the aluminum foil and I distracted you.

[00:32:07] Steph Barron Hall: Oh, right.

[00:32:08] So yeah, this person said, "well, it's pure aluminum, so you should be able to put this in here." And even though it says, you know, you can't. So it was like their own internal rule and following that rule rather than the actual rule, which I'm sure once this person learned why you can't do that. Why it says that then they adjusted the behavior, but they still followed their own internal rule until the understanding came.

[00:32:37] Liz Goulding: Well, and as you're saying that, I realize maybe I'm not actually as magnanimous as I thought cuz when other people, when I see other people violate what I would consider my own moral code, when like I watch them do things or behave in a certain way that I consider pretty egregious, that's very difficult for me.

[00:32:55] And I actually think the worst part is when people do bad things and they don't get punished.

[00:33:01] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm

[00:33:01] Liz Goulding: And I don't mean like go to– I don't mean like the penal system. I just mean like the world doesn't come back around and give them what's coming to them. That's a hard one for me.

[00:33:14] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. And I think what I always kind of want to highlight with ones is like, sometimes people do put these labels and say like, "oh, well, they just are kind of mean", or like "want bad things to happen to people", but it comes from this desire to be like, "I want the world to be fair and equitable" and it's extremely frustrating that it's not.

[00:33:35] Liz Goulding: Yeah. And I think maybe, Ones really see that.

[00:33:42] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm

[00:33:43] Liz Goulding: And maybe other types do too, but they see it in a way that is painful for them.

[00:33:49] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, like that hyper sense of awareness. Yeah. Well, so my husband is a One and so there are definitely times when I'm like, just like asking how his day is going. And he responds with like this big systemic issue that's happening in the world. And I'm like, "okay, well..." [laughs] You know, it's just fascinating. I'm like, my brain just doesn't work like that. You know?

[00:34:19] Liz Goulding: Well, and I mean, this is a fine line to walk because I don't ever wanna stick my head in the sand, but I've had to take a- I've had to really reduce some of the news that I consume and maybe it's not what I'm consuming, but like how I'm consuming it and where I'm consuming it from, because I mean the last five years have been a lot. And then, you know, you really ramp that up this past two years. And so it had become overwhelming to the point of not being productive. Like I was just angry, I guess I keep saying- I shut down. And so that's not- that's not helpful or constructive. And so it's like, I needed to figure out how to adjust my input so that I could be in a place to actually serve.

[00:35:13] And right now I'm trying to figure out what's that right mix for me, cuz I do wanna be present. I don't wanna hide from the problems that we have as a country, as a entire species. You know, and also there's the idea that like it's a privilege to be able to withdraw from the real problems that we face.

[00:35:34] So I'm in a personal project right now where I'm trying to figure out like, what's that right mix. How do I want to show up for that work? That's bigger than me and that's bigger than my client work. So that's been interesting.

[00:35:52] Steph Barron Hall: yeah, yeah. I mean, that sounds really tricky. And it almost, what I'm hearing you say is it sounds like figuring out what's the container, like where are the guardrails? That seems like a theme.

[00:36:08] Liz Goulding: Yeah. And actually the whole, like wanting to work on big issues and feeling kind of burnt out and frustrated on them is what led me to coaching work in the first place. Because I felt like I had- I have a master's in environmental science. I had been interested in pursuing some of these like larger issues and, just found myself in a place where I didn't feel like I was really contributing there or helping move the needle.

[00:36:38] And then I taught at community college for a little while and I taught nutrition and I enjoyed that, but I felt like, "okay, we're learning all these things about food, but is anyone doing anything with it?" And that is when I just realized it doesn't seem like knowledge is enough for change. And I realized, I think I'd like some one-on-one tools to actually- to help individuals.

[00:37:02] I'd like to spend some time at that level for a bit where it's- I'm not trying to make an enormous impact on the entire world. But instead I wanna make some meaningful impacts on a few people.

[00:37:16] Steph Barron Hall: yeah. Yeah. And what a great way to do that. I think too, through coaching, like I can see the thread of that transition a little bit. So it's really interesting too when you're talking about like those tools to help people change. So I know, you've studied motivational interviewing some, and then we also both have read different pieces of work by Richard Boyatzis and about like, what does it look like to actually help people change in their lives?

[00:37:47] And then you also have strengths profile. And so one of the things that I loved about the Enneagram when I first got into it is like, it really pointed just straight toward the blind spots, straight toward the shadows, like helped illuminate those. I think I felt it was a bit cathartic to like, have that really brought to light.

[00:38:11] And I think that's a common critique of the Enneagram actually is how it seems somewhat negative maybe. And it was a big adjustment for me, starting to work with you to actually like, be focused on strengths because when I focus on strengths, then I'm like, "okay, well, let's hurry through this part and let's get to the weaknesses."

[00:38:30] So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about this tool strengths profile that you use and like how you use that to help people change.

[00:38:41] Liz Goulding: Yeah. I'd love to. Because I mean, a minute ago I told you, I consider myself in many ways to be a pessimist. I'm almost like a recovering pessimist or recovering cynic. Like I've come to looking on the, it's not even about looking on the bright side, but I've come to this strengths perspective and things that are kind of more connected to positive psychology later in my life.

[00:39:05] I say all that for anybody out there who might be about to roll their eyes at, you know, the idea of like focusing on what's good and what's working. But the strengths perspective, it is just that. Like, let's look at what you're good at. And from this model, when we talk about strengths, we're talking about things you're good at, but also find energizing.

[00:39:30] And I think that is the piece that makes it extra interesting. Because I think a lot of people spend their- you know, they go about their day and at the end of the day, they're exhausted

[00:39:41] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm

[00:39:42] Liz Goulding: and they're not- they have some ideas why, but this is just a different lens to be looking at what you're doing. And I think it can be really encouraging to be like, "Oh, there is work that I do. Or things that I do that is energizing", and not everything is drudgery. [00:40:00] And so, as a coach, it's also a really nice way to affirm clients without blowing smoke. It's a big difference between affirming and cheerleading. Cheerleading, we've all experienced it. It's that very vague, "Oh yeah, you're doing so good. Keep it up." And that falls very flat. I receive that very poorly. It feels hollow to me, but a strength is a specific word

[00:40:28] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm.

[00:40:29] Liz Goulding: and there's a lot of meaning behind that. And I think it helps people feel seen. And I watch people when we do sessions really open up about themselves in a way that's not showy. Cause I think a lot of people are also, especially if they have humility as a strength. You know, there's this idea that talking about ourselves in any capacity is bragging. And I don't see it that way. I do think there's benefit to learning, to look at what you are good at. So you can do more of it.

[00:41:03] It's not about pretending you don't have weaknesses, but you're probably never– not never. You are way less likely to bring your weaknesses up to strengths.

[00:41:15] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.

[00:41:16] Liz Goulding: But you can spend a little energy on your strengths and learn to use them better. And I think that's also something that was very interesting to me.

[00:41:24] Strengths are what we're good at and what we find energizing. So I think about them as our, they're our big tools, but because they're our big tools, sometimes we like to get 'em out and swing 'em around indiscriminately. And so sometimes people need to learn to use their strengths less. And when I heard that for the first time, I was like, "oh, that's interesting."

[00:41:45] That's so much more interesting than just like, "Strengths are what you're good at. They make you special. Yay!" Like for example, humor is my top strength. I love to laugh. I love to make jokes. I mean, I can find a joke in almost everything

[00:42:01] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm

[00:42:03] Liz Goulding: that's not always appropriate, like in coaching,

[00:42:06] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.

[00:42:06] Liz Goulding: right? Sometimes a joke or something light can be nice. But sometimes I need to know to hold that back. And so, it's actually been really illuminating for me in terms of bringing in some other strengths and reading the room emotionally. What does this other person need? Where are they on humor? You know? And adjusting that accordingly.

[00:42:33] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's fantastic as well because, I mean, like we've talked about, I took mine and I like made them like tarot cards where I have them on my desk and I like shuffle through them and choose one. And I think that's been a really cool thing to look at the ones that are strengths and it says, like use wisely. So like on this tool that you use, it's like, this is how you could pull that back a little bit, maybe.

[00:42:59] Liz Goulding: I actually use that as an example for other clients all the time, because we do this assessment and this is a funny thing with people they're like, "Okay, but like now what? What do I do with it? What do I do with it?" And it's like, "Well, you integrate it over time. And that is a process." and the step one of that process is to bring awareness to your strengths.

[00:43:21] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm

[00:43:22] Liz Goulding: and you don't even have to take an assessment. You know, anybody out there that knows anything about any of their strengths, just start to become aware, start noticing when you're using it, start noticing how you feel about it.

[00:43:37] And then you'll also start seeing strengths in other people. You'll hear people's voice change. When they're talking about using a strength that they really enjoy, or they feel really confident in. Like the energy that the person is using in conversation changes versus like something like a learned behavior, which those are things you do well, but find draining

[00:43:58] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm

[00:43:59] Liz Goulding: in terms of this assessment.

[00:44:00] And then it's a chore, people start talking about like, it just becomes- their whole being changes and they're like heavier

[00:44:09] Steph Barron Hall: yeah. Yeah. It reminds me of Gay Hendrick's zone of genius idea as well.

[00:44:16] Can I ask you what is a strength that you've used this week, of yours? I know humor. What else?

[00:44:24] Liz Goulding: Mission is really important to me. So I'm always trying to stay connected to– I need to feel connected to my purpose. I actually literally just redid my strengths assessment today. I hadn't done it in 18 months. You wanna talk about preparing? I was like, "I feel like it's time."

[00:44:43] You know, growth is also on there for me. And I, in my work both as a coach and also someone who's self-employed now and, never had been before this, I feel like I'm growing every week. And sometimes that growth is exhilarating and sometimes it's very painful. And this week has been, it's been a mix, but I try to remember that, like, when I'm really uncomfortable, it is because I'm stepping out into new things.

[00:45:18] And you know, before I started doing this, I didn't really step out into the unknown. Like I only did things if I knew I could do them, like I already was super confident I would achieve them. So I never really stretched myself. And so I've been stretching myself enormously the last couple years.

[00:45:38] And it's I think I've surprised myself in a lot of ways, things I wasn't sure I could do, I'm doing. And that is a new gear for me and a new way of being, and seeing myself. And it's really cool. But it comes at great cost. I mean, without- you have to step out into the unknown and there are lots of aspects about this work or owning a business that they may not work out.

[00:46:07] And I had to accept that, and I decided though, at the very beginning, I decided I wanna give this my best shot. And if it doesn't work out someday, I can walk away knowing that I gave it my all that I didn't halfass it, frankly. That I wasn't like one foot in one foot out that I really committed and I tried and that's all I could do.

[00:46:32] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I can see that too. It's just like consistently showing up and risking, maybe not like doing it right. Sometimes because you're learning and growing and all of that stuff. Yeah. And, and owning a business is like, and running a small business, especially like, I'd say even the first few years it's like inherently stretching and stressful and growing, if you let it be.

[00:47:02] Liz Goulding: Well, and there's no roadmap.

[00:47:04] Steph Barron Hall: right.

[00:47:05] Liz Goulding: You know, there's always this, and I hear it from other people that are new to business too. This desire of like, can someone just tell me what to do, please? Can someone just tell me, like, just give me the checklist. I'm good. I can follow a checklist. It's almost that whole, what makes somebody a good student? You gotta relearn everything to run a business.

[00:47:26] Steph Barron Hall: Yep.

[00:47:28] Liz Goulding: And that's an interesting shift

[00:47:31] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm absolutely. Yep. Okay. Well, on that note, I would love to hear what you are like passionate about. What are you working on right now, that is really connecting you back to your work. I mean, we kind of talked around this a lot with like helping people change and working with specific people. Yeah, I would love to hear if there's anything in particular that jumps out for you.

[00:48:01] Liz Goulding: Yeah, I'm just thinking about what really fires me up with my work. I love connecting with my clients. You know, the actual coaching work really is the highlight of my week. And so many of my clients do really cool stuff. Sounds very vague, but like they, again, they own businesses or they paint or they create things and it is really- it is such a privilege to get to step into their life and help them figure things out. And then also I meet with my clients every two weeks. You know, we talk for 45 minutes and it's like, over time you really get a sense of someone's life. And you get to see what they're building and you really do get to look in the rear mirror and see how they've grown.

[00:48:53] It's really powerful. I feel enormously grateful to be, you know, a piece of that. You know, something else I'm really passionate about is I do believe that personal wellbeing is the foundation for building everything else that you want to build. And I work with so many people that feel that tension, if that like they spend any time quote unquote on themselves, then their family, their kids, their work is gonna suffer.

[00:49:28] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm

[00:49:30] Liz Goulding: And I think long term, that's playing Jenga. To use another strength of mine and paint a picture, tell a story. And I think a lot of people come to me as they're starting to see the cracks in that. You know, they're in their– not everyone, but like a lot of my clients, like I'm 39.

[00:49:53] And so like, in your thirties, something happens like something, you know, what you were doing in your twenties, like stops [00:50:00] working. What you were able to get away with, it just, you stop being able to get away with it. And I think a lot of people are like, "oh, okay, well now what do I do?" And so it helping people build that space for themselves and then also helping them see that when you expand your own capacity, you're actually able to- sometimes it's about doing more.

[00:50:25] I don't wanna, I don't buy into the whole like "productivity hacking thing". I think it's about being more present with what you're doing and feeling like you are choosing what you're doing. And when you have capacity, when you have energy, when you have kind of brain space and when you're connected to what really matters to you, then it is easier to move the pieces around.

[00:50:52] And I think sometimes people see they have options they didn't realize they had. It might mean making tough choices,

[00:50:59] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm

[00:51:00] Liz Goulding: but at least they become aware that there are paths available to them.

[00:51:06] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah. I love the energy- like just what you were talking about earlier with the strengths. Like, I feel like you kind of have that energy of like lighting up when you'd start talking about that. Cause you're like, "yes, this is the thing!"

[00:51:20] Liz Goulding: Well, then I think I felt it in my own life. I mean, there are I think some people that I know might look at me and think, "oh, she has it all together, like health-wise." Because I do get- sleep is very important to me. Everybody in my life knows like get out by nine, cuz I wanna go to bed. It's like a big joke among all my friends. And I do really prioritize getting in daily movement.

[00:51:50] But it's because I know what my life is like without those things. And it is diminished. I do not have the, I don't have the capacity. I don't have the energy and I really do wanna be there for my clients every day. My like my own personal vision. Can I say... I don't know how you feel about four letter words here.

[00:52:13] Steph Barron Hall: It’s fine.

[00:52:14] Liz Goulding: Okay. My vision is to be the best fucking coach that I can be. And it's not to be like a guru. It's not to be, you know, famous, but I just wanna be really good at my craft. That drives me. I'm excited by it. And it helps me want to learn and grow. And so part of that is being able to show up and be present and available to my clients because they're bringing me their stuff and I wanna make our time together really valuable to them.

[00:52:48] And part of that is about holding space for them and really being able to listen and hear, and if I'm not in a good place mentally, physically, emotionally, then I can't show up for them. And so for me, it all goes together. And I also, the other thing there for me personally, is I think a lot about like, what's aging gonna be like. Not in like a depressing sort of way, but I wanna be hiking when I'm 70.

[00:53:21] I wanna carry my own luggage through the airport and put it in the bin above me. And so there's lots of things I'm doing now with an eye on the future also. And so it's like, I think about those things for my clients too. So both like what's gonna help them have a good day today, but also what are they building today that's gonna carry them into the future.

[00:53:41] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm mm-hmm yeah, no, I think that's really clear. And I did just remember what one of my questions earlier at the very beginning, I said I had two questions, and I asked one of them. The second one I remember now was where do you hike?

[00:53:57] Liz Goulding: Well, more like travel to national parks

[00:53:59] Steph Barron Hall: Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay. Yeah. I was like, "hmmm"

[00:54:03] Liz Goulding: but in Dallas, especially at the beginning of the pandemic, my husband and I went, we went up to the levee, like the Trinity river levies and we walked every day.

[00:54:14] Steph Barron Hall: Oh, nice.

[00:54:15] Liz Goulding: I mean, so walk there. Yeah, mostly national parks. We haven't done a lot of that lately, so.

[00:54:22] Steph Barron Hall: I love it. That's so cool. Okay. Well, I love hearing about all of your experiences and I feel like this is gonna be so helpful for people who are like, I think a lot of Ones are like you in a sense, and they're kind of used to seeing this other picture of what a one is. And I think that you're just, you know, bringing in this different lens and I think that's so valuable. I know people will be wondering if you take coaching clients. So yeah, tell us about how people can work with you.

[00:54:58] Liz Goulding: Yeah. Thank you for asking that. I do take one-on-one coaching clients. I currently am keeping my business very simple. So I have one-on-one coaching clients that I work with directly, and that's just that work where we meet every two weeks. And, you know, if someone's interested, they can reach out to me.

[00:55:17] We can talk a little more about that. I always look for at least a three month commitment, but I keep things pretty open-ended there. I don't require– I don't do contracts or really heavy stuff like that. And then also I do strength sessions. So you could just come to me and do a 90 minute one on one strength session.

[00:55:35] So you'll take the assessment and then we would go over the assessment and you would have it to take away with you. I'm also playing around this year with a monthly drop in workshop for other coaches. If there are other coaches out there, just exploring different topics and ideas as it relates to you as a person and your work.

[00:55:55] So the first one I did last year, we talked about courage. You know, what does that mean for you as a person? Where do you need courage in your coaching? What's possible on the other side of courage. And so I have not entirely commit– maybe I'm committing into it right now, as I'm gonna say this out loud, but I think the next one's gonna be about failure and exploring failure and what it means. What the opportunities are around failure and what are different framings for failure when it comes to our coaching work. So that's just a fun thing that I'm doing and I'm playing around with. And we'll see where I go from there. I have some other ideas about group things, but like that's, that's where I am right now. Keeping it simple.

[00:56:38] Steph Barron Hall: Perfect. I love it. And I will link all of those things so everyone can find you on your website, which is alongsideliz.com. Is that right?

[00:56:48] Liz Goulding: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

[00:56:49] Steph Barron Hall: Cool. Yeah. And, okay. Final question, two questions. What is one book that really helped you or shaped you or refreshed you in the last year?

[00:57:03] Liz Goulding: Oh, this is easy. And you have read it too. And it's 4,000 weeks by Oliver Burkeman.

[00:57:10] Steph Barron Hall: Yes.

[00:57:11] Liz Goulding: That book is, I don't wanna say it's changing my life. It's more like affirming a lot of things I've already thought but I don't think I'd ever read in a book before. I actually want to- I like it so much I wanna do something with it in my work. Like I'm like, "okay, this book is great. Now, how can I help people actually implement this?" Because he says a lot of things around time and productivity that I think are very real and true to me, but are not what popular culture says a lot.

[00:57:44] Steph Barron Hall: Right.

[00:57:45] Liz Goulding: Like he, for those of you that haven't read it, he basically talks about how you can't do it all. 4,000 weeks is the average number of weeks a person has to live in their life. And so once you embrace that you can't do it all. You're free. You're free to not do it all, but that means you have to choose wisely, basically. And so he has all these different kind of thoughts and ideas around that. And he's a great writer. I just really enjoyed it.

[00:58:15] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. And I love his perspective too. Coming from that productivity junkie world, like "time management everything". And he says like, The thing that happens when you get better at sending more emails, is that you get more emails back. You know, things like that where we don't even think about that type of stuff. I think a lot of us have heard, you know, four hour work week. And so that's our barometer. I don't know, there's just like so many great insights, so yes, totally agree. Love that book.

[00:58:49] Liz Goulding: Maybe some other time we can- not on this podcast, but we can like break the book down and talk about it and

[00:58:55] Steph Barron Hall: yes, we can have a "break the book down" podcast because I would totally be into that. I have already read- I'm on my fifth book, halfway through my fifth book of the year. So it is the 12th.

[00:59:11] Liz Goulding: Congratulations. I just started a book by Catherine Price called The Power of Fun.

[00:59:19] Steph Barron Hall: Ooh.

[00:59:21] Liz Goulding: So we can chat about that some other time, but some of you out there might resonate with this also, but I find so many of my clients, one of the things they come to me and say, they want more of in their life, is fun. Or I'll say, "Where is the fun in your life?" And then there's silence. And it- that's another one of those things connect to well-being. I know we're trying to land the ship here- that's mixing metaphors. Land the plane, on ending this podcast, but people think fun is a luxury, or "I can get to the fun later", or "I can't have fun because of all these other things to do."

[00:59:58] And it's like, fun's actually important to being a human and we need it to fuel all our other things. And so anyway, I'm reading the book because I just- I feel like a lot of people are like, I want to have fun, but I don't know how anymore and I don't know what to do. And so I read a lot of books for me, but also for my clients.

[01:00:21] Steph Barron Hall: Mm. Yeah, no, I love that. That sounds really interesting. I might put that on my list. Okay. Final question. What is a piece of advice that's really stuck with you?

[01:00:33] Liz Goulding: A long time ago, a friend of mine, basically, it was in college and a friend of mine had a roommate and this is like very- but I just remember her mom used to always tell her, "You never know- You never really know why people do what they're doing." Kind of just the whole idea. Like you don't really know where people have been or what they're going through.

[01:00:59] That one stuck out to me when you asked, particularly in light of kind of being an Enneagram One and it really can help to soften, if I do have a judgment instantly, it kind of can be a nice reminder of like, "I don't actually know what is going on with that person." And it will often seem really obvious why a person does a certain thing, but the truth is there's a million reasons why a certain thing could happen. So it helps me remove- separate, like the facts of what happened from my own judgments around it.

[01:01:39] Steph Barron Hall: yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, again, super helpful. I feel like I'm just sounding like a broken record cuz everything you say I'm like, "that's so helpful". But it's true! So yeah, thank you for sharing that. Really appreciate that. And Yeah, really appreciate you coming on the podcast. I think this will be really helpful for a lot of people and really enlightening. A little bit about what it's like to be a One, what it's like to be a coach, all these sorts of things.

[01:02:05] I think you have a lot of interesting things to share and wealth of knowledge as well, which you probably are like, "oh gosh, don't say all these things", but I really, I agree with myself, so.

[01:02:18] Liz Goulding: Hey, another way I've grown is learning to accept a compliment. So thank you. I appreciate it. And it means a lot.

[01:02:25] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. I'm so glad. Well, great. Thanks so much for being here and talk to you soon.

[01:02:32] Liz Goulding: This has been awesome. Thank you.

[01:02:33] Steph Barron Hall: Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one. If you want to stay connected, sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on Instagram @ninetypesco to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show. I'd love to hear from you.

I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me.

Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of Enneagram IRL very soon.

[01:03:15] The Enneagram In Real Life podcast is a production of Nine Types Co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron Hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from Critz Collaborations. Thanks to Doctor Dreamchip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on Spotify.