Mindfulness, Presence, and an Enneagram Path to Healing Humanity with Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton, Type 1

Deborah Egerton: 1:30

What I teach in this sort of mission to try to help the world to become kinder and more compassionate and to recognize that we're all connected is that it's important to understand what a full body yes looks and feels like. And a full body yes to me is when you maybe have an idea or a thought, and you're listening to the wisdom that comes from your brain, but you filter it through your heart before you then let it drop into the gut, and the gut will say, yeah. Now you've got it. That's the full body yes. Sometimes a thought comes to mind and we just blurt it out without filtering it through our hearts and without the gut saying, yeah. That would be a a a good thing to say. It's where unkind, you know, sort of words come out. Um, people didn't take the time to really take that through a process of head, heart, gut. If you do, you wouldn't say those words or you wouldn't take that action.

Steph Barron Hall: 3:01

Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in real life, a podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host Steph barren hall. And on today's episode, I'm talking with Dr. Debra Threadgill Egerton. She is an internationally respected psychotherapists bestselling author and unity and belonging advocate for the healing of humanity. Affectionately referred to as Dr. E she has attained I E certification with distinction. For her groundbreaking utilization of the Enneagram in the realm of bridging historical divides, her work is dedicated to dismantling marginalization and transcending the divisive practices of othering. Doctor he serves as the president of the IEA, which is the international Enneagram association. And extends her coaching and mentoring expertise. To a diverse spectrum of individuals, including bestselling authors, top tier executives. Spiritual luminaries, accomplished therapists and a myriad of thought leaders, each hailing from distinct and varied backgrounds. And her multifaceted roles As consultant, coach, mentor, and spiritual teacher, Dr. Egerton guides, humanity toward harmonious unification. And today we are actually talking a little bit about her story and her process. And we're also talking about her new book. Uh, which is called Enneagram made easy. And this is about exploring the nine personality types. Of the Enneagram to open your heart, find joy and discover your true self. So on today's episode, we're going to be talking a little bit about her background and how she found herself as a type one and. She has some fantastic advice for us about. Utilizing all three centers and there's just so much wisdom in this entire podcast episode. And she also shares some advice. If you are newer to presencing and mindfulness. And one thing I really appreciated about our conversation today. Is that we talked a little bit about how the types. Kind of have these positive traits that we often don't appreciate. I think in a lot of my Instagram journey, I have done everything I possibly could to issue some of the natural type three tendencies that I had. And I think that I really appreciate the way that Dr. Egerton approaches just kind of accepting ourselves and accepting those parts of ourselves that, um, are really integrated in our Enneagram types and how not every trait. Um, that we believe that comes from personality or ego is necessarily a bad thing. And how. We can really appreciate the integrity and the excellence of ones or, um, the achievement and the drive and motivation of threes and how we all have these gifts that are not necessarily things we need to get rid of. But, um, maybe that we can learn to use from a deeper, more meaningful, more aligned, more authentic place as we do our own inner work. So we aren't becoming less of ourselves, um, throughout the growth path, but more of ourselves and, um, As you listen today, that is going to become a lot more clear. Like I said, she has all of these great tidbits of wisdom. And even in the show notes, you'll see all of these little quotes that we've pulled, um, that are just fantastic little moments of her. Sharing insights that she's developed over the years. And so I really appreciate her time and attention, and I really hope you'll pick up her book. Um, one thing again, that I really like about this book is, um, If you are familiar with the wisdom of the Enneagram. Resilient Hudson go through. The levels of development. And so Dr. Egerton actually expands on that a bit in this book, and then she also gives insights into each of the more jargony tight terms, like the fixation defense mechanism, arrows, passion, virtue, all of these sorts of things. Throughout the book. So again, really recommend picking it up if you are newer to the Enneagram, especially I think it will be really useful, but even if you've been studying for a while, she has tons of practical tools to use to apply this information. In our daily lives. So again, if you're interested in that, that'll be linked to the show notes and without further ado, here's my conversation with Dr. Debra Eckerson. Well, doctor Deborah Egerton, welcome to the podcast.

Deborah Egerton: 7:06

Thank you so much. Happy to be here today.

Steph Barron Hall: 7:09

Yeah. I'm glad you're able to join me. And I'm really looking forward to talking with you because You have been a prolific writer and speaker over the last few years. I have your first book. Well, the first 1 that is known to me about the Enneagram, No justice, no peace, um, which is right behind me. Um, and I also have your second 1 that just came out recently right here, Enneagram Made Simple, which I'm excited to talk with you about today. And I would love to hear first a little bit about your background.

Deborah Egerton: 7:43

Well, um, I can tell you that I started out, as a psychotherapist, and, uh, it was during my journey as a psychotherapist that I recognized that I wanted something, uh, that could help people when they left therapy. So, you know, there's what you do when you're sitting there with your therapist, and then there's what you do after you leave the therapist that either keeps you in the same space or you move along. And, uh, I found the Enneagram and recognized that, wow, this is amazing. We can develop a shared language. Uh, people can kind of go on their own journey and then come back and and share those experiences with me. But 1 of the there's a a really, um, interesting story about how before I knew the Enneagram, when I started my business, I started out doing things like team building and, um, coaching, uh, executives. And 1 of my first assignments was working with a team of 9 people, and I worked with them on and off over a period of time. And when I did my last session with them, this is before I knew the Enneagram, uh, I assigned each of them a role within the team. And, you know, I went around. I said, you're the 1 that's gonna kinda look after people, and you're the 1 that's gonna do all the investigation and research, and you're the 1 that's gonna keep peace for the group. And what I described was the 9 different Enneagram types, and I didn't know the Enneagram. And so, um, it was only a few days later that I went online because I was just looking for more sort of, uh, training resources, and I stumbled on the Riso Hudson Enneagram Institute. And I'm not a particularly impulsive person, but I didn't even have to think about it. I just simply, you know, signed up. And

Steph Barron Hall: 10:03

up for their certification.

Deborah Egerton: 10:04

I signed up for this certification. I got in the car. I drove I was living in Maryland. I drove to, Pennsylvania, and I did in part 1, the part 1 training, and then I went through all the trainings right up to the master master training, um, and it was just right there in front of me. And this was before the Internet was really even the go to thing for finding things, so it was pretty amazing. Pretty miraculous, actually.

Steph Barron Hall: 10:33

Yeah. Yeah. It's quite the meet cute between you and the Enneagram.

Deborah Egerton: 10:37

Yes. Yes. Absolutely.

Steph Barron Hall: 10:40

Um, what was it like to recognize your type? How did you figure that out?

Deborah Egerton: 10:44

I figured it out at that part 1 training, and, um, I tried to be anything but a 1. But and I share this with people because so very often, people will say, oh, well, I see myself in all 9. I mean, you know, I must be a 10. Well, we have all 9 energies within us. It takes all 9 energies to be a whole and complete human being. Uh, however, you know, we have more of certain energies and less than others. But finally, when I recognized the 1 energy was mine, and I recognized it more on the downside than I did on the high side. You know, and when when I recognized it, I can tell you I literally crawled up into a little ball, went up in my room, and just sobbed. It's like, no. I'm not self righteous. Well, sometimes I am. I'm not judgmental. Oh my god. Maybe I am. My whole life sort of passed in front of my eyes, and, um,, I thought of all the ways that I had tried to help people, but maybe they didn't want my help. And that if you're constantly trying to help someone improve, that you're actually making them feel broken. You know? So yeah. Yeah. It was it was a it was a tough pill to swallow for me.

Steph Barron Hall: 12:17

Yeah. You know what's really interesting is another Social 1 told me the exact same thing about finding their type.

Deborah Egerton: 12:26

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 12:27

And I think that there is something about it where, You know, you're trying so hard to help people and to make things better. And, like, why wouldn't somebody want to know how to do things better? And not realizing that, as you just mentioned, that you're making them feel more broken and how challenging that would be because your sense of self is like, I'm a good person. I I'm kind

Deborah Egerton: 12:50

Yeah. But it's the recognition that there's more than 1 way to do something and that everyone does not see through the same lens that you see through. So, um, you know, it just it was very sobering for me, and I can say, honestly, that I I took it very seriously. I am a woman of faith. I prayed a lot, uh, just to say, hey. You know? Help me out here because this is not the way I wanna show up in the world. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 13:25

Yeah. Yeah. So then what did you do from that experience? What made you think, yeah, I want everyone else to feel this way too.

Deborah Egerton: 13:34

1 of the things that that I recognized was that I felt very wounded. And, as a a psychotherapist myself, I re recognize pretty early on that I had to heal my own wounds. You know? So instead of trying to drag everyone else into the Enneagram pool with me, I spent a good long time doing my own work. And, uh, I can remember my husband used to say when I would come back from the week long trainings, When you get to the the end of the the training experience, Don and Russ used to say, you know, be kinda tender with yourself. The world's gonna look a little different when you get out there. And it did. You know, the world just seemed more harsh, more abrasive.

Steph Barron Hall: 14:27

Yeah.

Deborah Egerton: 14:28

I would come back, and I would I would be quiet for a while and just to allow the integration of the work. Um, I'm and I share that in the spirit of wanting people to recognize that you can't just pick up a book and read about the Enneagram and say, now I know the Enneagram.

Steph Barron Hall: 14:52

Yeah.

Deborah Egerton: 14:53

is so much there for you to integrate, and then, uh, as I always say, information, when embodied, becomes wisdom. So we can get a lot of information, but if we don't ever embody that information, then we don't move into wisdom. If we don't move into wisdom, it's impossible to elevate your consciousness. I spent a good long time and continue to do my own work.

Steph Barron Hall: 15:26

Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, it's absolutely essential, I think, that we are doing our own work because we can so quickly just move into, like, Spiritual Bypassing. And that's a very dangerous place to

Deborah Egerton: 15:38

Yes. It is. It is. And, you know, there's a there's another term that I've coined around the Enneagram. Not only is there spiritual bypassing, but there's cultural bypassing as well. you know, standing at 0.1, and I I tend to talk about the Enneagram from the perspective of what point do we stand at on the Enneagram and that it is an energy to release people from learning about the energy, the the Enneagram energies and then typing themselves and then putting themselves in a type box. It's to me, we're given 9 beautifully wrapped gifts. If we only unwrap 1 of them, then we're letting 8 gifts that were given to us to help us navigate as spiritual beings in human form, uh, we're we're just leaving them there, you know, and only working with 1 energy. But the important part of really taking in the wisdom and integrating and embodying it, that's what actually changes your life. Reading an Enneagram book and then, you know, stereotyping all of the different types, and using your stereotypical description of the type as an excuse for bad behavior. You know? You know I'm a 7. Don't be mad at me because I didn't show up. No. No. No. Um, Um, paying attention to if you are a 7 and you tend not to like to make commitments, what's going on there? You know? Or if you're 1 and you're constantly judging other people, what's going on there? So taking the time to really go into deep internal exploration, uh, uh, and doing that inner work so that you can, you know, um, actually move through the earth as a kinder, gentler, more compassionate being.

Steph Barron Hall: 18:00

Yeah. I I think that's 1 thing I love about the Enneagram because, Like, if I get on a call with my 3 friend and we're having a conversation, I'm like, oh, I'm like turning over this thing in my mind. She's like, I think you might be really concerned about the image of this thing. And then I'm like, oh, my gosh. Because she's a 3, she's like, I can see it. Right? That's so useful, um, to be able to kind of have that person to call that out instead of getting stuck on What I think the issue is, she's able to kind of see beneath the surface, um, which is incredible to have that tool. But also as you were talking, I thought about How you mentioned we all have all these different energies, and you're really saying, okay, use the head energy, right, the mind center, read about it, Feel it, you know, the heart center, and then embody it with the body center and kind of attaching or connecting with all those different pieces.

Deborah Egerton: 18:58

Yes. And, uh, I'm delighted that you brought that up because people forget, Steph, that we have 3 centers of intelligence. I know Russ Hudson often says, why be 1 third of a person? And it's so true. Science actually bears out and bears witness to the reality that, yes, there's the intelligence of the brain, but the heart has incredible wisdom and intelligence, and so does the body which manifest in the gut center. What I teach in this sort of mission to try to help the world to become kinder and more compassionate and to recognize that we're all connected is that it's important to understand what a full body yes looks and feels like. And a full body yes to me is when you maybe have an idea or a thought, and you're listening to the wisdom that comes from your brain, but you filter it through your heart before you then let it drop into the gut, and the gut will say, yeah. Now you've got it. That's the full body yes. Sometimes a thought comes to mind and we just blurt it out without filtering it through our hearts and without the gut saying, yeah. That would be a a a good thing to say. It's where unkind, you know, sort of words come out. Um, people didn't take the time to really take that through a process of head, heart, gut. If you do, you wouldn't say those words or you wouldn't take that action. So being present I mean, truly present. And you will notice that people that actually practice presence have a way that they speak. It's slower. It's more intentional. There are sometimes little gaps in there, And and the human tendency is not to ever want there to be any gaps. Like, oh my god. Somebody's not talking. Let me fill the air with words. But really taking the time to be intentional about the words that you use, the the way that you say it, which your heart will help you with. Um, and then your gut will affirm it. You know? Yeah. Go ahead. So that's 1 of the things that I teach, um, that is Enneagram wisdom, and then being wise enough to wait for access and opportunity. Sometimes particular Enneagram energies are prone to, um, just jumping into a situation or, you know, a 1 may jump to correct something. A a 7 may jump to change their mind and move to another project. But there's something that I call access and opportunity. if we're truly present, then the wisdom of our head when filtered through our hearts and confirmed in our gut, and then we wait for the right moment. Not everything is ours to address. So if it is yours to address, you'll be given access and opportunity to speak those words. So it's kind of a different way to even think about how we move through the world. People are always pushing people up to, you go tell them that they need to do this, that, and the other. No. that's not their choice to make. It's yours.

Steph Barron Hall: 23:11

Yeah. And I can see how certain types would have more of that tendency than others.

Deborah Egerton: 23:18

Absolutely.

Steph Barron Hall: 23:20

Like, sometimes I think of 1, 2, and 3 in particular as the types that are, like, overly responsible for everyone else's business. I know other types do that too, but I think that those 3 types have a particularly hard time with it.

Deborah Egerton: 23:33

No. I I agree. Um, you know, one's because of the looking always for the right thing to do and tattooed on the forehead of a 1 is, how hard is it just to do the right thing? You know? And, uh, tattooed on the forehead of the 2 is, please let me love you. You know, just let me help you. Let me help you. Um, and 3 is, you know, do you see how hard I'm working to be successful? You know? Look at me. You know? Really see me. So, yes, uh, those 3 types are very prone to getting into other people's business, but for 3 very different reasons. You know? 1 improvement, 2 for help, and 3 to be seen. So, yeah, it's interesting.

Steph Barron Hall: 24:24

Yeah. I'm curious just on that note for people who are really just beginning with this concept of Presence or even mindfulness at all. Do you have any, like, super beginner tips?

Deborah Egerton: 24:35

I do. Um, I would say for people who are just beginning the journey of presence and mindfulness, first of all, don't judge yourself harshly. Um, I often chuckle when people, uh, try so hard to meditate and, you know, just to let your mind go completely blank, good luck.

Steph Barron Hall: 25:05

Mhmm.

Deborah Egerton: 25:06

I I think that in so many ways that that's not the not the the greatest advice. More importantly, if you're trying to understand presence and mindfulness and learning to meditate, recognize that thoughts are gonna come. Just don't attach to them. Let them go. And I use the analogy of sit and be still. And as a thought comes, just place it on a leaf and let it float right on down the the river. Just let it go. it's very good to just practice releasing thoughts, just letting thoughts go. Random thoughts are there all the time, but just don't attach to them. And if you do get caught up in a a thought, then come back to your breath. The breath is always there to remind you I'm always here. I'm always here. You can come back to me. Let that thought go. The present moment is the most important moment of your life. Every single present moment. And if you can put that into your lexicon, if you can actually believe that the present moment is the most important moment of your life because you are there for that moment, then you begin to navigate life differently. You pay attention to the people that you're with. Uh, you pay attention to the people that are around you. You pay attention to the environment. You notice things that you've never noticed before. But becoming fully present to whatever is is a beautiful thing to do. I don't care if you're putting out the trash. Just be present with doing it. You know? And putting out this is a a funny example, but if you're present and you're putting out the trash, you know, sometimes you'll notice that you've thrown away something that you didn't intend to throw away. You know? Maybe there's, uh, something that you've been looking for for a period of time, and there it is, but you wouldn't have seen it if you hadn't been present in that moment. thinking about if you have young children, that present moment, they go off to school and they come home and they're excited about something rather than being scattered or distracted by something else, giving them the present moment, giving the person that you're in a relationship with the present moment. It's 1 of the most beautiful gifts that we possess is the present moment. So to wrap your brain around that, wrap your heart around that, and then hear how your gut responds to that, that's a full body yes, the present moment. Pay attention to it. And I think that's a really good beginner's trip

Steph Barron Hall: 28:24

Yeah. Yeah. That is. Um, And I think that I can hear a little bit of how your background as a psychotherapist does impact the way that you Use the Enneagram now, and I'm curious if you can speak more to how those 2 things kind of intersect for you, like the this aspect of psychology with with the work that you do now.

Deborah Egerton: 28:44

It's very interesting because, um, um, I don't practice as a psychotherapist anymore because it would be very unfair to particularly any, person that I was engaging with who has any type of deep psychopathology. You know? Just as I spoke the words about the present moment, um, you have to be present and available on a on a basis where that person needs to be able to access you. And my my work has become very broad and very all encompassing, and I feel like as a psychotherapist, I might be doing people a disservice, uh, not to be able to have the availability that I would need in order to continue to do that. But my background as a psychotherapist is still there. The way that it all comes together for me is that, um, it allows for people to continue their inner work journey. So I do more coaching now, and we have a shared language. People can look at the levels of development and see where they are. Uh, we can talk about that, and I can give all kinds of tips and guidance and bring people back to presence and remind them how that is so important for their mental well-being. And another important part of it for me, Steph, is that people don't always understand that in order for you to be mentally healthy, you have to pay attention to the signs of your mental health and well-being just like you pay attention to your physical health and well-being. So, you know, if I have a headache and it lasts for 3 days, I know there's something wrong, and I'm going to go to a doctor. Um, but if I'm having, you know, conflict with everyone in my environment constantly, People sometimes will just continue to have conflict with everyone in their environment constantly as opposed to stopping and saying, what's going on with me? We have an unfortunate tendency to be able to say the words, I know the only person who I can really control is myself, and yet we live our lives with the expectation that other people will make the changes. So, you know, we have a long list of changes that we would like for other people to make. And that's 1 of the reasons that I wrote Enneagram made easy because if we know the Enneagram, then we're beating these people over the head with the Enneagram saying, you know, I'm doing my inner work, and you're not. Well, okay. Just slip them the book

Steph Barron Hall: 31:57

Yeah.

Deborah Egerton: 31:58

if they if they catch on to it. And, um, you know, the Enneagram works for some people, and some people ignore it for 20 years and then pick up a book and they're fascinated. But it's the the realization that we really have to take responsibility for what's happening to our internal being. Because there's a an old adage, um, people talk about getting stuck in their ways. And gravity moves everything down. And if you're not doing any form of inner work, if you're not actually present with yourself and actually looking at your behaviors and looking at how you're showing up in the world, then not only are you not growing, but you're falling deeper into becoming stuck in negative behavior, thoughts, actions, patterns. Uh, so I think it is profoundly important to pay attention to when you're out of sorts. What's that about? What's what's what's going on? And the Enneagram has a beautiful way of helping you figure it out. You can go straight to the levels of development and look at where you are. You know? Oh, heck. You know? I'm dropping out of average into unhealthy. There it is. Oh, that resembles me. You know? So, yeah, I think that's really important work for us all to be doing.

Steph Barron Hall: 33:44

Yeah. I think so too. And I love that analogy because I think a lot of the time, we just we notice when we're at With our mental health in particular when we're at a crisis point, but we don't always realize, like, those little things that kind of lead into that crisis point. And what if we could be like, oh, I need a little bit more support today so we don't end up going down that I mean, I'm not saying that it's always a choice or or whatever. There are, like, lots of different, you know, mental illness aspects to to it. But if you're, you know, subclinical, I think that there are some things that you can do, um, to help yourself. Like, for me, I need to work out more. I think my mental health would be so much better if I did, and I haven't in, like, 3 months.

Deborah Egerton: 34:31

and that's the thing. You know, you've called it out. Now remember what I said about information

Steph Barron Hall: 34:38

Yeah.

Deborah Egerton: 34:39

embodied becomes wisdom. So, you know, your head knows I need to work out more. I would help my my mental health. And your heart says, please help me because I'm kinda hurting. You know? And now embody it. You know? And move move. I say this my children used to laugh. I taught them all when they were growing up. Move to the solution. Just move to the solution. Now don't spend a lot of time sort of, you know, wandering around regurgitating the challenge. Move towards the solution. And maybe it's just 1 step at a time that you move towards the solution, but that's what you need to do. Don't just spin. Don't just spin.

Steph Barron Hall: 35:29

Yeah. I would love to hear your reaction to this. Um, but as you say that, That strikes me as a very type 1 thing to say. I love it, but it feels very 1. And I'm curious if if it seems that way to you.

Deborah Egerton: 35:43

It is it is a very 1 thing. And I look at, um, I look at the higher attributes of 1 in terms of what can anyone at who sits at any point actually offer to the world. And 1 of the things that I believe as a human being who stands at 0.1 that I can offer to the world is some wisdom, some guidance, some discipline, um, some some way to see how to get to a solution and not get caught in the overwhelm. You know? I also have that line to 4, so I know what getting caught in the overwhelm does, and I know how it can stall moving to the solution. But an important part of being able to provide any kind of wisdom or guidance or assistance to someone who you see who is hurting is, first of all, access and opportunity. Is it my business? You know? Has that person actually asked for my guidance or my wisdom, um, or my my perspective on the challenge? And then the second thing, and I think this is the most important part of all, is the releasing of the outcome. You know? Sometimes, um, people at 0.1 not only want to tell you what to do, but they wanna force you to do it. And I think 1 of the the greatest outcomes for me personally as a person who embodies, um, 1 energy is I will do whatever I can to help you. Um, I will talk to you. I will provide wisdom, whatever wisdom I have and whatever guidance I can give you, but I'm going to release the outcome because that's yours. It's your journey. It's not mine. And this is where I believe that many people get too invested in the outcome. Um, be there to help people with love. You know, move people along with loving kindness and compassion and empathy. Be willing to do the right thing. And I I would prefer to say do the kind thing because that's more important to be able to do the kind thing, whatever energy you embody. But release the outcome. Don't hijack people's journeys.

Steph Barron Hall: 38:42

Yeah. I really appreciate that perspective and even, Um, also just thinking back a second to the levels of development, how you are highlighting the positive things about the types and what we have to offer because I think for me, and I think that this is just my bent, like, my upbringing and kind of My way of moving through the world is, like, really to focus on the future is bright and optimistic, but the present and I I'm like, there's something wrong. Right? Like, where there's, like, this, um, real focus on I think that's why I loved the Enneagram. I was like, let me just Dissect myself, you know, and and really in a place of looking for the negative. And, um, I like that you are bringing that other perspective.

Deborah Egerton: 39:35

Yeah. I believe that it's an important perspective to be shared because, um, we're not mistakes. You know? We really are not mistakes. And many of us can go through life feeling broken. Uh, however, if we choose to view ourselves as unrepairable, unredeemable, and spend too much time just dissecting and looking and unearthing the negative without celebrating the positive, that in end of itself can be very problematic. You know, 1 of the concepts within the Enneagram, fundamental elements that I love is the harmonics and recognizing that, you know, we have the rational competency types, we have the positive outlook, and we have the emotional realness. And following the law of 3 and the the the understanding that you always need that reconciling element. So for instance, you know, if a positive Outlook person is going at it with someone who's, um, you know, rational competency, that would be me and my husband. I am rational competency. He's positive outlook. But when we can really, really, really resolve something, it's when we bring in the emotional realness. You know? When instead of giving him all of the reasons that I think this is the right thing to do, and he's telling me what a downer I'm being because that's not necessarily what has to happen. But when I say, but, honey, this is really hurting my heart. This is just really hurting my heart, and this is why I wanna do it. It's not the just the rational, you know, list that I laid out, and then it's no longer about why I'm bringing him down, he can then be emotionally real with me and then say, I can hear that. And then instead of us going at each other, in that moment, we'll embrace. Those deeper concepts of the Enneagram are where I I want to see people go to get beyond this just sort of fascination with type and just looking at the the negatives. And we all need to do shadow work. Um, I think that's, you know with Enneagram made easy, we also did 9 individual type journals so that people can do some deeper work. But finding the elements of the Enneagram that are conducive to growth. And for heaven's sake, please celebrate the beauty of how you how and who you were created to be. You know, if you don't celebrate yourself, nobody else is even gonna know if there's a celebration that needs to be going on. So it's kinda like my birthday till March fifteenth. So I celebrate from March fifteenth to March fourteenth.

Steph Barron Hall: 43:20

I love it.

Deborah Egerton: 43:21

a yeah. It's my birthday year. So, you know, um, get to that place where you find the beauty in the broken places, not just the broken places. I I actually happen to have a, um, a table that is beautiful wood, and it's it's just, you know, split and open in so many places, and I have a lamp that's under there. And when I turn that lamp on, you can see the light that is coming out of, you know, all of those broken places. We forget that there is beauty and light that can emerge from the broken spaces.

Steph Barron Hall: 44:05

Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. And I love that analogy and such a cool table.

Deborah Egerton: 44:12

Yeah. It really is cool.

Steph Barron Hall: 44:15

Yes. I did. and I I wanna talk a little bit more about your book because, Like you said, it's really meant to be a guide for people where they can just take it and understand themselves, understand the Enneagram, understand, you know, the practical use case for this tool. Um, what made you want to write this?

Deborah Egerton: 44:35

What made me want to write Enneagram made easy? Uh, 1 was, the first book that I wrote is a very serious, uh, topic. You know? No justice. No peace with a k, um, was something that I believe people will go back for when they understand the Enneagram better. Uh, and what I see in the world is an awful lot of people asking what it do do the work? What is the work? I don't even know what the work is. People are always saying, do your work. What work? So I wrote Enneagram because I felt like if I could break out the fundamental concepts of the Enneagram into bite sized, digestible, sections that people would be able to understand it. And, also and that's for people who don't have any experience with the Enneagram. To be like their primer, their first book of the Enneagram, written easy and made understandable. But also for people who have been practicing the Enneagram for a long time who aren't doing anything but looking at their own type. And I believe in the 9 energy dance. I I so believe in that because I believe that it's what the world needs right now. I believe we need to understand all 9 of the energies in order to be able to relate better to 1 another, um, across differences and even within, uh, similarities. Just understand that even if you have the same Enneagram point as me, that you may be your your energy vibration may be on the lower level or the higher level. But if I really understand the Enneagram, I know what I'm looking at. And then when you know you know, Maya Angelou always said, when you know better, you do better. And in order to know better and to do better, we have to understand. Uh, there's, um, a word that just irritates me. And and, 3, maybe 4 decades ago, the word was a really good word. It was tolerance. You know, people were very proud of themselves when they reached a point of tolerance. And I feel like society got stuck at tolerance

Steph Barron Hall: 47:34

Yeah.

Deborah Egerton: 47:35

tolerance is not acceptance. It's not inclusion. It's not belonging. It's not connection. Tolerance is putting up with, and it may be better than anger and hatred and, um, dismissal. However, it's 1 step in a journey of many steps. And, um, um, I wrote no um, I wrote minigram made easy so that people would begin to activate and use the Enneagram out in the world. I believe that the state of the individual contributes to the state of the collective. And if we look at the world today and we look at the collective, then we need an awful lot more work to be done on the individual level in order for people to be able to come out and affect the collective level of the energy that is, you know, prevailing in the world today. So that's a very long complicated answer, but that's really why I wrote it.

Steph Barron Hall: 48:59

Yeah. Well, it's It's helpful, and I also really appreciate this point that you're emphasizing that I think in Enneagram spaces a lot of the time, and Especially, you know, in the United States overall, it's very individualistic. You know, at times and even I've said things like this on Instagram in the past that I totally disagree with now where it's like, oh, no. You're only responsible for yourself. And I think to think back to the boundaries kind of conversation we were having earlier, I'm responsible for myself to be accountable to myself to do my work. But that doesn't mean that it's all about me. It's really about, like, this communal experience that we're having and and helping other people along the way, whatever that might Look like. Um, and we focus so much on our our own experience of it and forget that there are other people

Deborah Egerton: 49:45

And it's so true. And, you know, um, you know, we throw a lot of words around, uh, narcissistic and self centered, on and on and on. However, rather than just throwing labels on people, um, I believe that each of us has a puzzle piece that creates the energy of the world, and there is no contribution that is not worthy that is unworthy, uh, of actually being placed in the energetic system of the world. But if I don't put my puzzle piece in there, then the people whose pieces fit around it don't have anywhere to go. So believe that we all have a contribution to make. There's not a a contribution that is too small. It's just wherever you are in the world, contribute to the loving kindness that needs to prevail. Learn more about the reality of, you know, divine feminine and divine masculine energy that we all embody. Uh, bring that into the world. If you happen to be a woman, don't try to lead like a man. If you happen to be a man, don't try to lead like a woman. Let's complement each other. And if you're nonbinary, well, you know what? You lucked out because you've you've you're you're able to to really understand the realities of how important that is. But we we want to make love and kindness and compassion complicated, and it's not complicated. Every now and then, and I say this often, every now and then, we may have to shoot narrow. But if you're going to shoot an arrow, when you pull that arrow out of the quiver, be sure you dip the tip in love before you release the bow. There is not anything in this world that we face that will not be helped by love and kindness. But where there is already pain and suffering, any measure of anger, hatred, negativity only further muddies the waters and makes that circumstance more painful. So, you know, we we have some work to do in this world, um, particularly if we want it to be a kinder, gentler people place for people who come behind us.

Steph Barron Hall: 52:46

Yeah. It's beautifully said, and I think, um, there's so much wisdom in just you know, we're talking about this 1 Enneagram book, Enneagram made easy, but you have all of this other wisdom that's packaged up underneath that. Um, and so I really appreciate you sharing that with us today. I am curious. So say well, I'll just use myself as an example. So Point standing at 0.3 as you you term, how do I grab a different energy or leverage a different energy or access that?

Deborah Egerton: 53:24

Um, you begin with the points that are closest to you. So your wings. Uh, learn how to actually understand the energy at 0.2 and the energy at 0.4. Uh, it's 1 of the reasons that I I wrote the companion journals to go along with Enneagram made easy. Enneagram made easy comes out in March. The journals will be released in April. But to actually work with the energy of 2. So you read about, you know, you read about, um, you can watch panels on YouTube. You actually pay attention to what it would feel like to view life through the lens of a 2. What would a 2 say? What would a 2 do in that particular instance? The same with the 4. What would a 4 say? What would a 4 do as opposed to what you would do at 0.3? We know point at 0.4, there's a lot of empathy. You know? Um, if someone is hurting, someone who stands at 0.4 is not necessarily gonna try to cheer them up. They're just gonna sit there in that space. So where in your life might the energy of 0.4 be useful, and where can you practice it? You know that at 0.2, there's a capacity to, um, give and receive love, And I think that's a very important energy for someone who stands at 0.3 because at 0.3, there's what I call a little bit of faulty wiring between the head and the heart. There can be a little bit of a a you know, like, I'm I'm I'm trying to get there. I'm trying to keep these 2 connected, but I wanna get this thing done. You know? Um, and my heart's getting in the way. And so not letting your heart get in the way, but embracing as a 2 would, the feelings along with the thoughts, the ideas, or the process. And then you go to, of course, your, um, points to to 6 and 9, and same thing. What would a 9 do in this situation? What would a 9 feel? What would a 6 do? What would a 6 feel? Just actually practicing the perspective of the other energy. It's something that I do a lot, and, actually, um, early in 20 25, um, I've done an oracle deck with Colette Baron Reid, uh, that is all of the Enneagram energies. And my goal for that is that people will actually just take a card every day and see what energy that they actually get and see where the energy, that energy is needed in their lives. Therefore, they try to really not just embody, because it takes time to do that, but understand that energy. It helps us to become a full whole person, but it also just increases our capacity to understand people who stand at the 8 other points that are not our home base.

Steph Barron Hall: 57:15

Yeah. Absolutely. Um, I was really hoping I would get some access So 1 and 8, but I guess I'll have to move to the advanced level before I get those.

Deborah Egerton: 57:26

Well, you know, you and think about this. You have access to 2. And if you walk the Enneagram map from 2, you can actually get yourself to 8. And from 2, you can also just do another little slide over into 1. From 4, there is a line to 1. So, you know and and actually walking the mat is a powerful thing to do. I so I don't know if you're going to be around, but, um, March 20 20 second, I'm, um, doing a full preday preconference day in Phoenix for the Hay House I Can Do It conference, and I would love to put you on the map.

Steph Barron Hall: 58:23

That would be so fun.

Deborah Egerton: 58:25

I would love to put you on the map. Yeah. It's in Phoenix. So where are you located? Okay. That that's that's not too far.

Steph Barron Hall: 58:35

It's closer than you.

Deborah Egerton: 58:37

Much closer than me.

Steph Barron Hall: 58:39

Yeah. Oh my gosh. So cool. Yeah. So okay. So I know we're gonna talk again because I really want to hear a little bit more about your journals, and how they're going to support people. And we're going to talk about really practical insights when we Discuss those. Um, so I would love to end this session of our conversation here, um, with a couple of questions. So first off, tell me about a book that has shaped you, refreshed you, or helped you in the last year.

Deborah Egerton: 59:13

So books are my guilty pleasure. And, um, when you ask me to choose 1, that's asking me, like, like, to choose 1 of my children. let's see. What is 1 that I loved this year? Um, actually, something that has that I loved this year is internal family systems. I just I see a natural connection between that and the Enneagram. And, uh, so that's something that I have branched off into looking at because I think that they complement 1 another. Um, and so there are several books I've I've read several of them, but, uh, a good 1 for people is no bad parts. So I think that that's a a great 1, and it has greatly influenced me this year. Um, and I'll leave it at that because, otherwise, I'll go into a list of 25 others.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:13

Yeah. And and we could just Definitely do that because I'm the same way. I just moved offices, and I was like, I have an obscene number of books that I am bringing to my office. And then there are all the ones that are for home that I'm not bringing to the office. It's like,

Deborah Egerton: 1:00:30

I know I know exactly how it is. It's I have, um, I still have a Kindle for no other reason than if I whenever I read a book, if I love it, then I make sure that I download I like to read the actual book, but I download it on Kindle so that I can have my portable library go everywhere

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:54

Yep.

Deborah Egerton: 1:00:55

everywhere with me. So yeah.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:00:57

Yeah. My emotional support, Kendall.

Deborah Egerton: 1:01:00

Yes. Absolutely. Yes. That that's yeah. And it doesn't bark, and I don't have to feed it. So

Steph Barron Hall: 1:01:06

It's perfect.

Deborah Egerton: 1:01:07

you have to charge it from time to time, but that's it.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:01:11

So Okay. Last question. Tell me about a piece of advice that has really stuck with you.

Deborah Egerton: 1:01:18

The, um, um, there's so many pieces of advice that stuck with me that came from my mother. So I'm gonna have to have I'm gonna have to share 2. 1 was my mother told me once that the best thing about me was also the worst thing about me. And I thought, well, okay. I don't know if that's a compliment or a slap, but say more. And this was shortly before she died, and she said, Deborah, you are you have always been really kind, and you'll do anything you can to try to help someone. But in that kindness, you also have, uh, an affinity for just allowing people to go too far in terms of not treating you the way that you should be treated. And then when you finally recognize that you're being harmed by someone, you wake up and you, you know, then you kind of delete that person from your life. And she said, I think it would serve you well to see it and give voice to it as it's happening. And that stuck with me because, you know, being an Enneagram person who stands at 0.1, my energy, it's natural pro proclivity is toward tamping down the the anger, um, just trying to not be inappropriate by saying something. So just tamp it down. And then what ones do, uh, uh, when they really get angry, I always say, you know, you've gotta be careful because the 1 has a switchblade tongue. So the words that come out then will be very mean spirited, and sometimes there there might be a case where there's no coming back from it. And I don't ever wanna be in that situation. So, um, I was a younger woman when my mother told me that, but I took it to heart. And the other thing that was not so much advice, but it was something that I heard, and it stopped me in my tracks and brought me to my knees. And it is, um, Sleeping at Last has the 9 different Enneagram songs. And the Enneagram song 4.1 has a line in it that says, to spend all of your life to discover that grace requires nothing of me. And even now, just seeing that, um, you cannot work for, God's grace. It just comes naturally. So to spend all of your life trying to prove that you're worthy by trying to do the right thing, that is a something, you know, to let go of. You're just

Steph Barron Hall: 1:04:59

Yeah. Yeah. I love that line in that song.

Deborah Egerton: 1:05:02

Yes. Yeah. So, yeah, that just, it it always comes back and washes over me. You know? Um, I don't have to prove goodness. Um, I don't have to try to be, um, the person that solves everything. I just have to be and know that I'm loved. So

Steph Barron Hall: 1:05:27

That's beautiful. Okay. Well, thank you so much for joining me. Tell me, where can people find you?

Deborah Egerton: 1:05:37

The easiest place to find me is at Deborah Egerton dot com. So, you know, you'll put all the links in, but it's people spell my name wrong in, uh, multiple of ways. So put the link in, but it's, uh, d e b o r a h, and Egerton is e g e r t o n. So people always end up with 2 g's or spelling Deb Debra, and it's so yeah. It's Deborah Egerton dot com. And everything you ever wanted to know or needed to find about me is located in that space. And, uh, also through the IEA, because I'm I'm right now the president of the International Association. So any anything that goes off to the IEA makes its way back to me.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:06:26

Cool. Okay. Well, I love that. Um, thank you again so much for coming back and talking with me, and I can't wait to talk about your journals very soon.

Deborah Egerton: 1:06:37

Very soon. That'll be great.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:06:41

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify